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HellKittyDan
13th May 2009, 13:03
These are some shots from the game The Darkness. As is fairly common in games now the characters eyes need to adjust when moving between light and dark. In this game when standing in a well lit area looking into a darkened area, the darkness is pitch black, but when moving closer to the darkness it becomes easier to see what hides in the shadows.

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3836/shadowandlight01.jpg
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1192/shadowandlight02.jpg
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5813/shadowandlight03.jpg

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8192/shadowandlight04.jpg
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1143/shadowandlight05.jpg

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/7750/shadowandlight06.jpg
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8859/shadowandlight07.jpg

I'd like for this to have an effect on gameplay, that is, the enemies eyes would also adjust and be able to see when moving into darkened areas.

What this would mean, is that it would be better for the player to move between pockets of darkness to avoid guards patrolling in the light, because dousing every torch in the building would actually make it easier for them to see you, thanks to their eyes adjusting to the light. This would get rid of being able to hide right in front of the face of your enemy, and make players think more about dousing light sources.

Of course it's entirely possible that while this seems like a good idea in my head, it would play horribly. What do people think?

geekytom
13th May 2009, 13:08
Great post.

People are starting to come up with some really interesting ideas on this forum.

Mshade
13th May 2009, 14:03
That would work really well. They had something like that in Need For Speed Most Wanted. When you drove into and out of tunnels your eyes would adjust. I think it would work really well for a game like this especially since in the previous games T1 and T2 it is kinda hard to know how dark a room is due to the graphical limitations.

Prospekt1125
13th May 2009, 14:17
I think this is a really great idea too. I think it would add a challenge without making the game impossible.

You'd sort of have to race against time to knock out guards before they have a chance of seeing you.

One problem I can see with this, however, is that it would be hard to tell how close guards were progressing to "dark vision" or whatever you want to call it.

WhatsHisFace
13th May 2009, 16:50
I don't know. HDR just makes it annoying to look at light sources. I am all for Garrett (or another character) being able so see easier in really dark areas though.

Herr_Garrett
13th May 2009, 19:28
Great idea! This should mean, though, that not only flashbombs have the blinding effect, but flares and the turning on of the lights as well (you know what I mean, sudden like).
Oh, by the way, maybe Garrett's mechanical eye should give him a sort of protection from it, or something.

Terr
13th May 2009, 20:06
It would definitely be nice to add HDR as a graphical feature, although you would probably want the player to have faster adaption than in real-life. (Master thief. Magic powers. Kung fu eyeballs. Whatever.)


One problem I can see with this, however, is that it would be hard to tell how close guards were progressing to "dark vision" or whatever you want to call it.

This.

Using HDR and also making HDR affect AI would be interesting, but counterproductive unless there was some clear mechanism so that the player knows when his strategy of "destroy their night vision" is working.

DarthEnder
13th May 2009, 20:13
You also have to remember that unlike the guards, Garrett himself is also dark. So even if their eyes adjust to the darkness a little, they probably still wouldn't be able to see the black cloaked figure hunched in the corner.

Whereas Garrett can see the guard in the blue tabard and chainmail striding through the room fairly easily ones his eyes adjust.

Terr
13th May 2009, 20:23
We can only hope Garrett subscribes to the Havelock Vetinari school of fashion. (He is after all a thief, not an assassin.) ;)

Maethius
13th May 2009, 20:33
Perhaps Garrett could have options to leverage a new darkness engine like this. Not to get too much into the old "RPG upgrade" mode or anything, but to be able to purchase softer boots, darker clothes, magic items of concealment, even paying a bit to have his blades and such blued to cut down on reflectivity. Heck, I've even wondered why he doesn't tie a small fire-resistant cloth around his fire arrows. :)

Also, I can't recall that light levels had much direct impact on animals... could that be incorporated as well?

Corvin25
15th May 2009, 08:06
Wow. I never would have thought of this. :) I like the idea. It could also be used for suspenseful moments, and those "OMG" scary moments that are meant to make you jump out of your seat.

No, I don't mean a a standard "BOO!" moment like in crappy horror films. Here's my idea:

Even Garrett makes a mistake on rare occasions. If he somehow tripped an alarm, or was spotted by a mechanical eye or arrow turret, perhaps the lights would suddenly all turn off at once... the villain of the game perhaps taunting you through a loudspeaker like in Thief 2 whenever the eyes spotted you... and then a hatch on the wall opens. You can't see it yet, because your eyes are adjusting... but you can hear the hissing and clicking of cave spiders drawing near...

Oh, and this "adjusting" effect would play a *HUGE* part if you accidentally are looking in the direction of a flash bomb when it goes off.

Mr. Perfect
15th May 2009, 17:18
Of course it's entirely possible that while this seems like a good idea in my head, it would play horribly. What do people think?

I wonder this too. Sure, it's realistic and all, but how many times do you make the transition from light to dark in Thief? Every ten feet? This may be another one of those times where realism detracts from the gameplay.

Hypevosa
15th May 2009, 17:48
Eye adjustment was already in T1 and T2, but it was only with drastic increases in light. I.E. the flashbomb effect, because that was a sudden shock to the system. I agree with Garrett having the ability, he spends most of his time in the dark anyways, but unless it's total darkness, guards shouldn't see Garrett upon stepping into the shadows he's crouching in, unless they stay there for like 30 seconds. Even then, like someone else said... black clothing in a black corner.

Neb
15th May 2009, 17:53
I found a post from TTLG about HDR lighting (and bloom). I can't verify whether it's true or not, but the author seems to think that for most practical purposes HDR actually mimics low dynamic range unless used very sparingly: http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1789875#post1789875

Danie1
15th May 2009, 18:10
People! Let's get back to real world biology/physics! Garrett can control the iris of his mechanical eye, so it isn't necessary to wait for his eyes to adjust! :D

I think this was implemented well in HalfLife, but for a game like Thief where you will constantly be moving between light and dark - this will probably drive everyone crazy. I also don't want to have to deal with trying to dodge a guard by diving into a dark room only to have my screen adjust and discover I ran headfirst into another. Let's try to keep things simple, Thief DS should have taught us all the lesson that gimmics won't make the game any better.

My own little input to the screenshots in the OP: too much blue! It may be realistic, but part of what I love about missions in Thief is colour. Walking down a hall with red carpet with plants here and there, a small torch provides a little light but can't penetrate the cool dark shadows - even a little scene like this was vibrant.

Neb
15th May 2009, 18:31
Right on the money, Danie1.

Agreed.

Terr
15th May 2009, 19:44
IMO Thief is not really strongly associated with "gritty"... At least not in the "Oh God Use Blue Lights Everywhere" sense, like in The Matrix.

Sure, there's a lot of it, but it's because it's night-time, not because you want the audience to be terminally depressed.

Get a good sunset mission in there somewhere, with lots of slanting red light.

Neb
15th May 2009, 19:48
At least not in the "Oh God Use Blue Lights Everywhere" sense, like in The Matrix.

Or Thief: Deadly Shadows. ;)

Espion
15th May 2009, 23:42
If guards that follow you into the dark are able to see you after a while then the fundamental aspect of the game (stealth) is lost. It also makes the light crystal pointless since, regardless of whether its lit or unlit, people will see you eventually.

I'm afraid that I can't see this adding anything to the game. It's more likely to break it.

Prince_VLAD
16th May 2009, 00:18
The pics talk for themselves.It's an interesting idea...but maybe there are , on the market, a few other good engines, too.

Limesneeker
16th May 2009, 01:03
Great idea.

For me the gain of gameplay advantage in the old games by extinguishing all torches in a room always felt somehow unnatural and unaesthetic...your idea would solve this....



About the black clothing: it wouldnt harm the idea of HellKittyDan because even if clothes have the same color as the background (which is rarely possible by the way) guards would still be able to recognize the contrast/silhouette when their eyes are adjusted, while they wouldnt see anything if they arent.

When you look closely at the first three pictures you will see my point: imagine that this is the 1st person view of a guard and Garrett is standing in the next room - in the first picture we wouldnt notice him at all, in the second with little possibility but WE WOULD DEFINITELY NOTICE HIM IN AT THE THIRD PICTURE BECAUSE THE WALLPAPERS ARE WHITE/GREY. This definitely shows that the cloth color is only secondary....



About the difficutly to see wether the guard is "adjusted" or not: think of reality! Via animation of course! How does a person move who cant see a thing? With uncertain, irregular steps and stretched-out arms because of fearing to run into something. When his movement becomes certain, you will you have to run....



About the colors: the HDR/light adjustment principle have nothing to do with them as they depend on the surrounding materials. So you still can have red carpets ;)
Still, I think a blueish tint isnt bad, is realistic and wouldnt influence other colors...


Last but not least: this would greatly increase atmosphere and visual quality! Why do dark-only games feel unaesthetic? Because it isnt natural! In reality dark places (literally!) are contrasted by the fact that light sources seems to be all more powerful out of the view of a dark place. This feature would make the darkness in thief visually more intersting. Imagine the flackering, golden shine of a torch seen from a dark place....


I think if implemented well you can´t go wrong with this idea - it is the natural next step for a game series which plays with darkness/light since the first installment.

Nate
16th May 2009, 02:21
I really like this idea as well!

Icky6
16th May 2009, 03:06
Great post.

People are starting to come up with some really interesting ideas on this forum.

Yeah I agree, this is a good idea. It's a shame, because on the Deus Ex 3 forum, I feel it's devolved into mind-numbingly inane chatter... things tangentially related to the game but ultimately stupid and pointless. Of course, it's only a matter of time before that happens with this forum as well, seeing as there is exactly 0 information on the game except that it exists.

But I digress. This is a good post and seems like it could work well in-game!

Thieffanman
16th May 2009, 07:29
IMO Thief is not really strongly associated with "gritty"... At least not in the "Oh God Use Blue Lights Everywhere" sense, like in The Matrix.


Or Thief: Deadly Shadows. ;)

Okay, someone please help me understand this, 'cause I just don't see it: There seems to be a lot of complaining on the forum about the omnipresent shades of blue light in Thief: DS.

The thing I liked about the blue lighting was the fact that it helped reflect the fact that it was *night*. This also helped differentiate among ambient moonlight, torches, and electrical light. From what I saw:

Blue light = surfaces reflecting ambient light at night; usually moonlight. Also the light that usually went through windows. As the entire game happened at night, this helped drive that point home.

Yellow/ warm light = surfaces that reflected torches. A good indicator that, if the light was coming from around a corner, you should get a water arrow ready :).

Pale white light = From those weird electrical lamps that never went out :). Also a good indicator to move past it quickly, to keep from being spotted.

Overall, I think the color choices to reflect lighting sources in DS worked pretty well. So why no love for the blue light? :)

--Thieffanman

Terr
16th May 2009, 09:57
I don't think TDS did color too badly. My gripe about blue light was where certain games/films use it as lazy way to be uniformly dreary, especially when it's from artificial lighting.

And then those annoying Pagan will-o-the-wisps...

Limesneeker
16th May 2009, 13:05
Okay, someone please help me understand this, 'cause I just don't see it: There seems to be a lot of complaining on the forum about the omnipresent shades of blue light in Thief: DS.

The thing I liked about the blue lighting was the fact that it helped reflect the fact that it was *night*. This also helped differentiate among ambient moonlight, torches, and electrical light. From what I saw:

Blue light = surfaces reflecting ambient light at night; usually moonlight. Also the light that usually went through windows. As the entire game happened at night, this helped drive that point home.

Yellow/ warm light = surfaces that reflected torches. A good indicator that, if the light was coming from around a corner, you should get a water arrow ready :).

Pale white light = From those weird electrical lamps that never went out :). Also a good indicator to move past it quickly, to keep from being spotted.

Overall, I think the color choices to reflect lighting sources in DS worked pretty well. So why no love for the blue light? :)

--Thieffanman

Agreed! I really like the color-palette of DS...especially the mystic green tint in the pagan mission, the sic green inside the undead ship or the consequent "dead" grey tint in the cradle...

Yaphy
17th May 2009, 18:09
Garrets mechanical eye should have a better nightvision. It would be useful in those extremly dark places (when you just wants to press option>brightness) when you almost gets lost.

Espion
17th May 2009, 18:22
Again, what fun is a stealth game if you can no longer be stealthy?

The whole crux of Thief's stealth system lies in the light/dark and the use of the light crystal. If you make the light crystal redundant and take away Garretts ability to hide in the dark then it breaks the entire stealth system and it stops being a Thief game.

Realistic is not always better when it comes to gameplay.

kv29
24th May 2009, 16:33
english is not my native language, so please bear with me...

ai characters were unable to see your shadow. What would you do if you were looking toward a wall and see human shadow coming right to you?? :eek:

also, if you were between an ai guy and a source of light on the other end, he couldnt see your dark shape at all even if he was looking right at you, and just because you were on a dark spot? :scratch:

not real at all....
I hope you know what I meant.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
24th May 2009, 18:56
Cool, I didn't know that. Personally, I would've liked the AI to see my shadow. Guess I just love being punished.

btw it looked really cool seeing your own shadow in first person.

-Constantine-
24th May 2009, 19:25
The developers at Ion Storm tried making AI react to shadows, but they found that it ruined the Thief gameplay. There is such a thing as something being too real. A huge part of the Thief gameplay is sneaking up behind someone. If the shadow alerted an AI, it would simply ruin the gameplay. Gameplay has to come before realism in quite a few cases.

But with the right skill and a bit of luck, you can sneak behind a person in real-life, right ?

I think this would have been a nice feature. Even nicer if you could turn it on/off in the options menu, or make it difficulty-dependant.

WVI
24th May 2009, 21:00
The problem is, AI don't have human eyes, and sometimes a little bulge would poke out of a normal shadow, and the guard would probably see that. It'd take some SERIOUS programming to have them determine what's a reasonable shadow or not.

hexhunter
24th May 2009, 23:57
also, if you were between an ai guy and a source of light on the other end, he couldnt see your dark shape at all even if he was looking right at you, and just because you were on a dark spot? :scratch:

Are you sure that's the case in T3? I read otherwise, though it would also be annoying if you were hiding in the dark spot in a corridor and there was light either side of you, good levels like Framed! would never work...

Mr McGee
25th May 2009, 00:50
Guards need to react to shadows from the player. This isn't one of those little things where gameplay comes before realism. It's something that can very easily break the immersion.

Yotun
25th May 2009, 01:16
Hmmmm... that's a difficult one to be honest. Because really, if there's any source of light behind you, you should easily be able to see the shadow of somebody sneaking behind you. I can see why Ion Storm would have dropped it.

One method would be to make Garret be able to take torches out, without water arrows - but not from afar, only when close to them (some sort of equipment, I have no idea, but I don't think its unrealistic) This would allow you to create 'darkness traps', where your shadow wouldn't be seen. Guards could be able to relight torches, and get suspicious if too many go out, or if the alarm had gone off before.
Or you could change level design and patrol routes, so that ghosting is rewarded rather than attempting to blackjack guards. you could potentially have much fewer guards, but far more dangerous.

I don't know, I realise the core gameplay mechanics would change from the original games this way. I personally would enjoy my second suggestion, and think would make the game even more intense, knowing that you have to be extra careful to completely avoid any guards, and also take care of your shadow, but I can see how some would not enjoy this sort of gameplay.

Durinda D'Bry
25th May 2009, 12:14
I think shadow detection should be difficulty settings dependant feature. I don't think it would ruin the game if AIs wouldn't notice main character (or their enemies) shadow. It's very good to have it implemented it but if not I wouldn't cry.

ToMegaTherion
25th May 2009, 12:24
Remember that in a video game, especially a first person one, the player has much less awareness of things than he would IRL. It's not unreasonable to make the guards similarly handicapped.

ZylonBane
25th May 2009, 17:10
Guards need to react to shadows from the player.
Nope, wrong.

Limesneeker
28th May 2009, 00:04
Guards need to react to shadows from the player. This isn't one of those little things where gameplay comes before realism. It's something that can very easily break the immersion.


agreed.

There must be some sort of gameplay progression/extension towards realism (dont get me wrong: that doesnt mean that I want a pure simulation)

It would be nonsense to stick to 1998 gameplay mechanics in a (probably) post 2010 game...

Furthermore: the use of a dynamic darkness system does certainly not mean to loose the hiding element but would make it more sophisticated and subtle - simply more exciting and the feeling of beeing closer to real hiding (and the greater amount of tactics it would require) would make it all the more rewarding....:thumb:

Hirnpilot
28th May 2009, 09:09
nice Thread :-)
I like HellKittyDans idea of a "dark vision". As a grafik feature ( just Garretts view ) it would add a lot of atmosphere to the game. I remember turning the brightness up just to find a door and down to get the feeling i'm in the shadows and not just invisible.
For the guards and the gameplay ... this seems to be a matter of taste. I myself would prefer the challenge. Just attach it to the difficulty setting and all be fine.
In my opinion the shadow detection is a question of quantity not quality. I mean if a Guard stands with his back to a fire and u try to sneak behind him, resulting in a giant shadow in front of him ... it would be ****ing ridiculous if he doesn't notice. But that doesn't mean he has to notice every little reflection and shadow from the corner of his eye especially when there are multiple lights in a room.
You can't ignore dynamic shadows just because thief 1,2 don't have them!

hawk047
28th May 2009, 09:16
Aslong as it wont break light & darkness stealth gameplay, I wont mind.

Rek
31st May 2009, 17:03
I think that Garret's shadow should be implented. Maybe it will be little more difficult, but I think it's better for good player since it adds more challenge. We would have to bash the guard before he notices our shadow, we also should pay attention to it while standing near corners and such. :)

Danie1
1st Jun 2009, 16:38
The problem is, AI don't have human eyes, and sometimes a little bulge would poke out of a normal shadow, and the guard would probably see that. It'd take some SERIOUS programming to have them determine what's a reasonable shadow or not.

Did any one of you touting AI reacting to shadows read this? Imagine an AI reacting to the shadow of the tip of your head out of their periphal view. Does that sound realistic? I'd also like AI to react to shadows as well, but implementing it in a way that would work well and not make sneaking past some places impossible would take a lot of work. Deficencis in AI are blaanced out by other factors anyway, like being able to hear your footsteps despite deafing ambient noise.

Rek
1st Jun 2009, 18:28
Most probably you're right.

Knight
6th Jun 2009, 20:52
Yeah when a guard come closer, u can see you easyer, but when u are in a very dark area, he can only see you from 0,5 meter. And when u moving in a 90% dark area, you are visible better, when u are standing.

KaiserJohan
25th Jun 2009, 20:56
Thief 1 and 2 had near impenetrable shadows, requiring you to play late at night, with your entire room darkened to see anything in the shadows (and there were lots of them). And I still had about 3/4 to full brightness.

Thief 3 had Blue... blue shadows. They were a little bit too bright.


Personally, I want something in-between. T1+T2 was too much, T3 too little. Do you think EM will find a middle-ground?

Hamadriyad
25th Jun 2009, 21:04
In fact, I like TDS blue style but I guess between would be nice and I believe EM will find a perfect balance.
COME ON EM, JUST GIVE US A PERFECT GAME!

Thieffanman
25th Jun 2009, 21:50
This was brought up in another thread, specifically about the lighting styles for the games.

The good thing about the blue light is that it emphasized how it was night in the city. The darker the shade of blue/gray, the darker it was, right down to black.

Personally, I liked the color palette used in TDS when it came to showing where the shadows were.

--Thieffanman

jtr7
25th Jun 2009, 23:02
Thief 1 and 2 had near impenetrable shadows, requiring you to play late at night, with your entire room darkened to see anything in the shadows (and there were lots of them). And I still had about 3/4 to full brightness.

Thief 3 had Blue... blue shadows. They were a little bit too bright.


Personally, I want something in-between. T1+T2 was too much, T3 too little. Do you think EM will find a middle-ground?

Something wrong with your monitor(s), perhaps, or the lighting in your room(s)? Never have had that issue, unless I try to play in a sunlit room.

Zahr Dalsk
26th Jun 2009, 02:02
Thief 1 and 2 had near impenetrable shadows, requiring you to play late at night, with your entire room darkened to see anything in the shadows (and there were lots of them). And I still had about 3/4 to full brightness.

You know you can change the gamma with the + and - keys, right?

Myth
26th Jun 2009, 03:06
Blue shadows - bah! That's an immersion killer for me. Dark Engine's shadows looked REAL and down right creepy some times. TDS's shadows were more as if taken from a colouring book. Don't even get me started on fairy dust and the blue-purple loading fog.

kaekaelyn
26th Jun 2009, 03:38
I think the TDS shadows were...okay. But they were just that, okay. It was kind of cartoony. I prefer the old shadows...made the whole game cooler. I know the graphics weren't that fantastic, but my mind filled in the rest and I was...there.

ToMegaTherion
26th Jun 2009, 08:31
Deadly Shadows shadows were much nicer, and they tended to work sensibly instead of "shuffle around until your light gem turns arbitrarily dark" which is also good.

CaptainObvious
26th Jun 2009, 12:51
I liked the way ligthing in TDS was handeled. It looked good and you didn't have to wait until midnight and turn out all lightsources to be able to play the game.

Flashart
26th Jun 2009, 13:05
I liked the TDS shadows, and the dust in the light was extremely realistic. I thought the shadows looked best from fires etc. The use of lightning in "Moira's" was fantastic.. But I liked the T1/T2 sense of immersion in the shadow, just how black some of them were. Strange but TDS on it's lower graphical settings made the shadows really dark, the highest level had better detail but lighter shadow.
I often wondered about my silouette, but I think there's a danger of "railroading" Garrett to stand in certain places. If you add in randomized guard patrols etc, having them detect your shadow might be a very dispiriting experience.
Some of the best light I've seen in a game was "Morrowind", some truly beautiful sunsets etc, but it's shadows were not that great. TDS's easily beat those.

tarhiel
26th Jun 2009, 13:59
I think adjusting to light and dark is really good idea. I´d like to have it in game. Of course, like you have to adjust, and other NPC too.

Secondary
31st Aug 2009, 16:07
the shadows in TDS

lets start out with saying that as far as the engine was concerned the shadows were techincally superb. the way the moved, fitted object curvature and reacted to light.

as far as the visual aspect goes...ive heard people criticize the blue shadows, well alot of that was created by the moonlight coming through windows, some of which were stained glass and meant to channel atmopsheric blue light.

its not hard to make lighting realistic in games today, tis just a question of how much precessing power you are willing to commit. when talking about a stealth game, then its obvious the programmers should commit alot of computing power to lighting. so i think we can be confidant that EM will do an excellent job creating technically well designed shadows.

as for A.I reacting to shadows...you normally wouldnt have to worry about that because a good deal of your time is spent hiding and standing still, waiting for a guard to turn his back or leave the room. even if your shadow is exposed, as long as its not moving (if your not moving) most people will dismiss it and move on. ESPECIALLY if you are wearing a cloak to break up your outline, than your shafow becomes jsut another formless patch of black. when it comes down to it the only circumstance in which a shdow would betray you would be if your impatience betrays you first, and you move before its wise to do so. and if you like, an A.I's ability to react to shadows can be toggled with difficulty (or so i imagine)

jtr7
1st Sep 2009, 00:55
In an already dimly lit room, the shadows will not be blue, the moonlight (if the moon has risen and is not hidden behind clouds) will only create a blue light around the shadows, not in the shadows except where reflected moonlight fills in the shadow. Blue shadows from moonlight will not be present where no moonlight is or can ever shine. The original blue of the shadows we saw was not almost black, but unnaturally royal blue and all the time, even if the room was only lit by yellow flames. Many color choices were made with the old console players in mind and the televisions--exaggerated and unnecessary on computer monitor.

Realistic light and shadow colors, not so red/yellow/green/blue/magenta/brown like a color wheel, and real-looking light and shadow play in a surreal world of rich textures would anchor it better.

Davehall380
1st Sep 2009, 15:34
In an already dimly lit room, the shadows will not be blue, the moonlight (if the moon has risen and is not hidden behind clouds) will only create a blue light around the shadows, not in the shadows except where reflected moonlight fills in the shadow. Blue shadows from moonlight will not be present where no moonlight is or can ever shine. The original blue of the shadows we saw was not almost black, but unnaturally royal blue and all the time, even if the room was only lit by yellow flames. Many color choices were made with the old console players in mind and the televisions--exaggerated and unnecessary on computer monitor.

Realistic light and shadow colors, not so red/yellow/green/blue/magenta/brown like a color wheel, and real-looking light and shadow play in a surreal world of rich textures would anchor it better.

Agreed. It is neccesary to keep the 'surreal' elements prevelant within the game.

Dynamic lighting was never really used to its full potential in TDS, which is a shame because along with sound it contributes to the overall feel of Thief.

P.S I was suprised that the dark engine could actually render movable light sources. Playing through a few FM's at the moment and have encountered multiple 'guards with lanterns'. I always thought that lighting in the dark engine was 'fixed', but apprently not. What an engine!

clock12345
9th Oct 2009, 22:45
i think if the game could be much difficult and much challenging

well my idea was if you wont have any help system what i mean is

you cant see your life

you cant see your shadow orb

but you can see your hud and condition point


my suggestion : instead of shadow orb you can have small circle point in the hud

that displays if your in danger and if your in the shadows

if its green everything is just fine (no danger and your in the shadows)

and if its yellow it means your in normal situation ( closed to be spoted , half in the shadows , your not at shadows at all)

and if its red it means your in bad situation ( guards spoted you , your close to be dead)

this all is just similar to splinter cell double agent i dunno but i liked that idea with no help system only hud and condition point

its only my opinion how about you guys?

Vae
9th Oct 2009, 23:53
:(...Uh oh...Clock, you're in big trouble now...:mad:

clock12345
10th Oct 2009, 00:26
sorry guys i know

i just wanted to say

that vae always pick me and spam on my threads

i cant take it anymore he does it all the time

i just dont want to see him on my threads anymore

please just stay off my comments vae


sorry guys i just pushed off a little bit

i just take him anymore

theBlackman
10th Oct 2009, 01:39
what? idiot
at least i share my opinions everybody shares opnions in this forum -_-

listen : Dont Spam!!

i hate you by the way never liked u always getting into other threads and just spam
like you do something all day sits and spam

dont even dare to quote or reply for this comment.

i dont want to see you even reply or comment on my threads you got that? good

Cool it. Read the TOU.

If you don't like someone, don't read the posts. As for your Idea, I, as a player, think it SUCKS. And if you don't like that opinion, tough! And if my response to your "idea" offends you, tough again. Opinions are that, replys to opinions are the opinion of the person replying. They deserve the same consideration you seem to think yours deserve.

If you end up "hating" me, I could not be less interested in your favor or dislike of me or anyone else.

But, send a PM to the person you have issues with. Don't broadcast it here. The TOU specifically prohibits that and other derrogatory attacks. Live with it or go home and sulk.

PS, do you mean "without ANY help" or with less than is currently given the player? Your "title" is a bit confusing.

PlumsieTaker
10th Oct 2009, 02:18
Clock, Vae wasn't attacking you at all nor was he spamming. He was politely insinuating that some people aren't going to like your idea.

Personally, the Shadow Gem is a major part of Thief, removing it or removing the ability to see it is like having a chocolate cake without the chocolate. An influential ingredient is missing and neither things work without it.
"Borrowing" ideas from Splinter Cell is the worse thing for Thief, even though they're similar in the stealth genre, they're totally different games.

Vae
10th Oct 2009, 02:47
Clock, Vae wasn't attacking you at all nor was he spamming. He was politely insinuating that some people aren't going to like your idea.


Exactly. I thought that was clear when I posted it. I don't think that your idea works well for THIEF, seeing that it goes against its core design. I have nothing personal against you, so relax, and if you come up with a better idea, I'll support it.

jtr7
10th Oct 2009, 02:49
It's gotta be a case of mistaken identity. He tends to go off on people, thinking they said something they didn't, especially if it's an opinion that disagrees with his opinion. He does need to relax and reread posts before assuming it's any kind of real attack or spam. Anyway, his ideas are usually for 3rd-Person, HUD removal, and Multi-Player, and I don't know why a new thread was started when he's already posted in all the pertinent threads. By the way, the HUD can be turned off in the game files--sorry, console players that can't modify the files.

Hecateus
10th Oct 2009, 15:52
One thing about lighting in TDS, were the windows to the outside where moon light was coming in at the same angle from the windows, not the moon...even when the windows were on opposite sides of the same room.

Platinumoxicity
10th Oct 2009, 17:27
One thing about lighting in TDS, were the windows to the outside where moon light was coming in at the same angle from the windows, not the moon...even when the windows were on opposite sides of the same room.

The light shafts were static objects and they had nothing to do with the actual lighting outside. Also IIRC there were no translucent glass windows in TDS. Only window-ish wall objects with bright or dark textures. That's pathetic.

jtr7
10th Oct 2009, 23:02
I found it peculiar that TDS continued an oddity from the previous games of having windows visible on one side of a wall but not the other, so sometimes a window had the streaming moonlight effect when the moon couldn't even reach that window. Also, moonlight wouldn't penetrate so deeply into a building to give it the blue ambient light. It's kinda surprising how much inconsistency there always has been so that each space is almost treated as separate from the rest, just for looks and mood. It's okay when you're not paying attention to that. :p

Flashart
29th Dec 2010, 11:22
I thought I'd try and revive this after reading "What Garrett needs..."

What Garrett needs is light and shadow and a variety of qualities between. So if we take shadow as Dark, Med, Light, what should Garrett be able to do in each and what should AI be able to detect in each? I'd like to add "Pitch Black" as well saying that an unmoving wall-hug should be completely invisible, assuming the AI doesn't have the ability to "feel" for you. However pitch black would only be in very particular places caves/cellars etc.
Would tiptoe in light shadow generate an alarm.

Platinumoxicity
29th Dec 2010, 18:49
I think that in "pitch black" areas there would be a special shader that makes things blurry, like in real world dim environments. Having completely pitch-black areas in a stealth game isn't fun because the player would need to use light sources and get exposed, but a blur shader would at least simulate total darkness by 50%. No matter how much the player would crank up the screen gamma cheat, all he could see would be blurry outlines of things. This would be nice in a horror level because the level designers could make details that the player could mistake as shapes of enemies. :)

If the game would be really realistic, the blurryness of the scenery would be directly proportionate to the luminosity of the scenery, and of course the color saturation would be inversely proportionate because the human eye is unable to distiguish colors in darker shades. The color thing is a problem though, because everyone has LCD screens nowadays, and LCD can't draw grayscale scenes as dark as color scenes, and shadows might actually look brighter than slightly brighter areas that have bigger color saturation.

Flashart
30th Dec 2010, 12:08
What I was imagining was pitch black areas for "hiding" rather than moving in. Doorways or alcoves. I'd like Garrett's eye to play some part, NOT nightvision but at least a way to explain a completely black light gem but still visibility "on screen".

Death24701
8th Mar 2011, 01:04
The lighting seems kind of cool, but I'm not too sure about making Garrett's eyes adjust as knowing what is going on is crucial to the game.

Fizbop
9th Mar 2011, 04:14
Regarding the pictures the light seems to oversaturate the walls.

xDarknessFallsx
9th Mar 2011, 05:24
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