PDA

View Full Version : BLACKJACK: - All Discussion - How doesth one upgrade?



Pages : [1] 2 3

Mr McGee
13th May 2009, 00:09
In the three other Thief's, killing had no advantage to knocking out; it was louder, created blood, and lasted the same amount of time (forever) as a KO. I think it would be interesting in the new game if guards could awaken from a blackjack or other knock-out. This would make the game more tense ("Will I have time to get out before he wakes up?") and add some new strategy ("It would be nice to have that guy out indefinitely, but I'm afraid it may be too loud...."). The only problem I see is on missions or difficulties with no killing, it would get kind of frustrating to have guards waking up on you. It would have to last quite some time, like 20-25 minutes real-time.

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 00:10
No. It would be annoying.

xXFl4meXx
13th May 2009, 00:14
I think they should wake up, its more realistic that way. In real life it depends on how hard you hit person that decides how long they will be knocked out. So around 12-15 minutes is when they should wake up. Also like someone else mentioned earlier, if another guard finds a knocked out guard, then he should be able to wake that guard up.. Its only more realistic that way.

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 00:15
Minutes? No. It would take many many hours for someone to get up from that. And someone else coming up and shaking them probably wouldn't help them wake up any sooner either

xXFl4meXx
13th May 2009, 00:17
Minutes? No. It would take many many hours for someone to get up from that. And someone else coming up and shaking them probably wouldn't help them wake up any sooner either

Well it also depends on the person, I mean the guards are big tough guys right? I dont think they are wimps, they have high stamina, so technically they would recover faster than regular? Also dont they wear helmets? I cant recall.. If they do it should be a lot harder to blackjack guards.. Oh and actually your wrong on that one, you can wake someone up that way, depending on how long they were knocked out..

Nate
13th May 2009, 00:19
I think guards that wear helmets should be immune to blackjacks!

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 00:19
In Thief 2, some guards and a few mechanists had helmets that prevented you from blackjacking them. I have no problem with that. But I don't care how tough someone is. Their brains are still very fragile, and you can't exercise your skull

xXFl4meXx
13th May 2009, 00:21
In Thief 2, some guards and a few mechanists had helmets that prevented you from blackjacking them. I have no problem with that. But I don't care how tough someone is. Their brains are still very fragile, and you can't exercise your skull

Well technically some skulls are thicker than usual, and bone strength as well. However, the recovery system on everyone is different, depending on your stamina. Not everyone recovers at the same rate... Especially the fit..

Terr
13th May 2009, 00:21
Having them wake up before you had finished the mission means one or more of the following:
Really resilient guards.
An incompetent protagonist.
Painfully long missions!


Here's my suggestion: They can be woken up by another guard or person who finds them. If the would-be-rescuer guard finds a dead body, he obviously can't revive it but is extra-paranoid.

Otherwise they sleep with sweet dreams.

xXFl4meXx
13th May 2009, 00:25
Having them wake up before you had finished the mission means:
Unrealistically resilient guards.
Painfully long missions!


Here's my suggestion: They can be woken up by another guard or person who finds them.

Otherwise they sleep with sweet dreams.

Well I guess thats fine, since the AI is going to be more intelligent & roam around more & have more complicating patrol routes, you wont really be able to hide the body easily in a good place.. It would be more of a challenge.. I like the idea..

& hmmm, well how about if it guards waking up automatically from the knockout would be only like a 5% chance? & only after like 20 minutes after being knocked out? I think thats fair & realistic enough?

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 00:25
I remember how annoying it was trying to play Oblivion with the Thief mod. Anyone you blackjacked got back up in ten minutes. Utterly frustrating. I don't ever want someone to get up after being blackjacked during a mission again.

A passing guard could pick up the unconscious guard or drag him to a bed or some such place. Or, depending on who finds the body, just run and get help.

If they get back up, they would have a pretty serious headache. And any further damage to the head would most likely kill them

Neb
13th May 2009, 00:28
I think they should wake up, its more realistic that way. In real life it depends on how hard you hit person that decides how long they will be knocked out. So around 12-15 minutes is when they should wake up. Also like someone else mentioned earlier, if another guard finds a knocked out guard, then he should be able to wake that guard up.. Its only more realistic that way.

That would make the blackjack redundant as a stealth weapon.

Anyhow, what is this general fetish for realism I see? I thought we were after fun.

xXFl4meXx
13th May 2009, 00:33
That would make the blackjack redundant as a stealth weapon.

Anyhow, what is this general fetish for realism I see? I thought we were after fun.

Well what about if it was 5% chance of waking up for the guard & only after 20 minutes after being knocked out?

& isnt that what fun is? The more challenging the more fun right? Its not like it overkill challenging... That way the game is full of surprises..

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 00:35
To add challenge, looking glass started to add more stuff like robots and cameras etc. The guards never woke up in classic Thief games and it felt right. Just adding enemies that cannot be blackjacked is enough of a challenge. And its more fun.

Neb
13th May 2009, 00:40
Well what about if it was 5% chance of waking up for the guard & only after 20 minutes after being knocked out?

So, what do they do after waking up? Go on as if nothing happened or sound the alarm and spoil your mission?

Also, if there is a chance that guards are going to wake up again, players will be quicker to kill instead of just knocking them out.

xXFl4meXx
13th May 2009, 00:40
To add challenge, looking glass started to add more stuff like robots and cameras etc. The guards never woke up in classic Thief games and it felt right. Just adding enemies that cannot be blackjacked is enough of a challenge. And its more fun.

Maybe its enough of a challenge for you...


So, what do they do after waking up? Go on as if nothing happened or sound the alarm and spoil your mission?

Also, if there is a chance that guards are going to wake up again, players will be quicker to kill instead of just knocking them out.

No they would get temporary amnesia, & would also get a health loss penalty of say, 75%? or 50%?

& thats why there should be a penalty for killing, some kind of penalty that would make them think twice about it. Theres already the "lots of noise from killing the guard" penalty, dunno what else their can be?

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 00:44
Thief isn't supposed to be about challenge anyway. Thief is the only game to ever do stealth properly. Tinkering with it is not a good idea.

No guards waking up after blackjack. I have spoken

Terr
13th May 2009, 00:46
Tinkering with it is not a good idea.

Nice. 2000th post.

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 00:48
I'm very proud of my accomplishment. :D

xXFl4meXx
13th May 2009, 00:49
Thief isn't supposed to be about challenge anyway. Thief is the only game to ever do stealth properly. Tinkering with it is not a good idea.

No guards waking up after blackjack. I have spoken

Are you taffing kidding me manfool? Thief isnt about challenge!? Your way of thinking is repulsive.. We might as well dumb down the guards completely, & let them stand around idly... & better yet make them deaf & blind! Thats so fun!

You bes cursed by the Woodsie Lord...

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 00:51
I never found Thief challenging. I always managed to get used to the nuances of the AI by the second or third level. But I still love Thief anyway.

xXFl4meXx
13th May 2009, 00:54
I never found Thief challenging. I always managed to get used to the nuances of the AI by the second or third level. But I still love Thief anyway.

Well I am sure the majority of Thief fans would enjoy the game more if it were more challenging...

Terr
13th May 2009, 00:55
I never found Thief challenging. I always managed to get used to the nuances of the AI by the second or third level. But I still love Thief anyway.

The trick is to let the game give you avenues for self-imposed challenge. I'm a big fan of pacifist-runs (insofar as you can be a pacifist, anyway) in Thief, Splinter Cell, Hitman, etc.

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 00:57
Well I am sure the majority of Thief fans would enjoy the game more if it were more challenging...

Well, as I was trying to point out earlier. There is a right way and a wrong way to inject more challenge into the Thief gameplay. Looking glass understood how to do it. Having regenerating enemies is not the right way to do it


The trick is to let the game give you avenues for self-imposed challenge. I'm a big fan of pacifist-runs (insofar as you can be a pacifist, anyway) in Thief, Splinter Cell, Hitman, etc.

True.

xXFl4meXx
13th May 2009, 01:08
Well, as I was trying to point out earlier. There is a right way and a wrong way to inject more challenge into the Thief gameplay. Looking glass understood how to do it. Having regenerating enemies is not the right way to do it


Well technically having them wake up etc. Is less about it being challenging, thats just partial. Its more about the game being dynamic, as in not the same crap over and over again, its good for the player to be surprised once in a while. Otherwise if your never really surprised whats the use of using the flash bombs you know? Thats why I rarely used them, because I always knew where the enemy was, where they will go & so on.

Just like in real life, if you go thieving, or burglarize a home, there will be surprises, and that's what makes it so exciting. Without surprises, it doesnt really feel like your a Thief.. Thats my 2 coins..

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 01:14
With the guards getting up again, I can see the gameplay becoming redundant very fast. And so:
...the same crap over and over again...
becomes a reality anyway.

Mr. Perfect
13th May 2009, 01:15
Guards "woke up" in the city hubs of Thief 3. They even rose from the dead! This was not fun though, just irritatingly repetitive.

maddermadcat
13th May 2009, 01:16
Anyhow, what is this general fetish for realism I see? I thought we were after fun.

Urrgh. Waking up so soon after a knockout isn't even realistic, really. I've said this before.

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 01:17
Guards "woke up" in the city hubs of Thief 3. They even rose from the dead! This was not fun though, just irritatingly repetitive.

Did they? I know that when a day passed more guards would show up and the people would have fresh loot for you to mug off of them etc. But I don't remember them actually reviving themselves after a knockout or a kill...

Neb
13th May 2009, 01:27
Well technically having them wake up etc. Is less about it being challenging, thats just partial. Its more about the game being dynamic, as in not the same crap over and over again,

At first you said it was for realism, then for challenge, and now for dynamic novelty.

It's really only an idea that you're attached to.

TazmanianD
13th May 2009, 01:49
In the three other Thief's, killing had no advantage to knocking out
That may be true of a sword, but not with ranged weapons. It would be far easier to make a head shot to kill a guard with an arrow than to try and sneak up behind the guard. I remember places where it was very difficult trying to get behind a guard to knock him out.


I think they should wake up, its more realistic that way.
There is a good argument to be made for realism, but I think (and I believe this was part of the Dark Mod discussion NewHorizon mentioned) that game playing isn't necessarily optimal if it is as realistic as possible. It's a delicate balance between having a more realistic game and having a better game playing experience. If we went with realism, our Thief wouldn't be able to carry a fraction of the equipment he does in the games and would only be able to steal a tiny amount of loot. I personally think having the guards wake up makes for a less enjoyable experience because it's not about repeatedly knocking out guards who won't stay down but about figuring out how to knock them out the first time and get around the map. I found it irritating that you couldn't clear the city in Thief 3. I like clearling a map so I can take my time wandering around looking for loot.

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to allowing guards to wake up other guard when found (say with sniffing salts). That would encourage you even more to find a good finding place for the bodies.


So, if the player is punished for black jacking guards, they might as well kill those guards instead.
Well said.

Mr. Perfect
13th May 2009, 01:49
They did not. They 'spawned' a new AI...not the same thing. This was to prevent the player from emptying the city.

Well, yes, they where technically new guards. They always seemed like the old ones to me though, they used the same paths and usually had the same voice. You'd take the guy out, and then a little later you'd see "him" right back where he'd been. Either way, it's not fun having a guard pop back up in an area you already cleared.

Nate
13th May 2009, 01:55
Well, I could go for blackjacked guards being woken up by NPCs IF they find them. Encourages hiding NPCs after you knock them out.

If a guard is woken up/found, he/she (and the NPC that woke them) should run around and alert all the other guards.

xXFl4meXx
13th May 2009, 02:14
At first you said it was for realism, then for challenge, and now for dynamic novelty.

It's really only an idea that you're attached to.

Its for all three lol.. Yeah but after doing more research, I realized in reality that people cant wake up that fast.. However I am still for the idea of guards being able to wake up knocked out guards.. That however is possible and can happen.. & would encourage the player to hide bodies more strategically.. As TazmanianD already beautifully explained.. Ty Taz

tokamak
13th May 2009, 02:56
Having them wake up before you had finished the mission means one or more of the following:
Really resilient guards.
An incompetent protagonist.
Painfully long missions!


Here's my suggestion: They can be woken up by another guard or person who finds them. If the would-be-rescuer guard finds a dead body, he obviously can't revive it but is extra-paranoid.

Otherwise they sleep with sweet dreams.

I like this idea. It would put an even greater emphasis on stowing sapped guards out of the way.

Also, characters should be able to be fooled into thinking that the sapped guard is simply drunk through the clever placement of glass wine bottles near the body.

Prospekt1125
13th May 2009, 03:02
Technically, if you got hit hard in the back of the head with a blunt object it would KILL you, not knock you out. So I don't really think anyone can claim that the blackjack is a realistic tool.

As for the guards waking up idea, I don't like it. It think it would be really frustrating, and we have enough trouble being able to knock them out in the first place. :P

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 03:08
It wouldn't necessarily kill you. It depends obviously on how hard you are hit obviously. What annoys me in T3 was that you couldn't knock out people if they were in 'alert mode'. If they had their sword out and were searching for me they were impervious to blunt object smacking them in the head apparently. The classic Thief games didn't have this crap. They also let you knock people out after a flashbomb too. I don't know why TDS nerfed the blackjack so much, but it was incredibly annoying. And I hope they fix that in Thief 4.

TazmanianD
13th May 2009, 03:56
What annoys me in T3 was that you couldn't knock out people if they were in 'alert mode'. If they had their sword out and were searching for me they were impervious to blunt object smacking them in the head apparently. The classic Thief games didn't have this crap. They also let you knock people out after a flashbomb too. I don't know why TDS nerfed the blackjack so much, but it was incredibly annoying.
I'm pretty sure those were both present in the original two games. You couldn't knock out guards who had spotted you and were actively looking for you. You also could knock out guards you had blinded with a flash bomb. I think TDS actually improved this a tad since throwing a flash bomb didn't blind you as well as the enemy. I thought it was reasoned well that if you throw a flash bomb, you'll close your eyes.

Nate
13th May 2009, 03:58
A blackjack is a bag full of lead shot....It hits your skull hard, but morphs and dissipates the impact in a way that won't break your skull. While it would knock you out (or put you in a coma) they'll rarely kill.

In fact, you can make one with thick garden hose, some lead shot and duct tape.......errr, did I just give myself away?

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 04:02
You could knock out people in Thief 1 and 2 who were in search mode. Just not when they were chasing you. In TDS, if they so much as heard a sound they would take out their weapon and walk around looking for you. In the first two games you could still knock them out at this stage, but not in TDS.

And in the first two games, one of my tactics was to flashbomb someone and then knock them out. But you can't do that in T3. They just make some snarly comment about how weak you are and shake off their blindness right away and attack you.

You also had to be right behind someone in order to knock them out. You had to wait for Garrett to raise the blackjack up a bit, letting you know that your strike will knock them out. You couldn't smack them in the face. In Thief 1 and 2 I used to crouch down in some shadows in a small hallway and wait for a patrolling guard to walk towards me. Then, when he gets close enough to see me, he'll jump a little and start to say something like "What the-!!" And then I'd really quickly smack them in the face and he'd go down. That was perfectly realistic, but you couldn't do any of that in T3.

Fix it EM!

Terr
13th May 2009, 07:07
It might not be "realistic", but as far as I'm concerned if you alert the guards you should not be able to knock them out, even if you managed to get behind them.

It's a gameplay issue. You're asking for unbeatable guard-on-the-floor combos that can be performed in the heat of battle. Bad idea.

______________

I think the real problem is this: The game did not have the animations nor the AI nor the swordplay mechanic to tell you: "WTF are you doing? He's all alert and he hears you shuffle up and swing at the last second."

It's not so much a matter of realism as a matter of gameplay mechanics and doing the best with limited tools to make those mechanics understandable.

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 07:19
That's not at all what I'm suggesting. I'm simply saying, make it like Thief 1 and 2 again.

You'll remember that there are three modes that the guards use. Idle/patrol mode, Search mode, and combat mode. In T3 you could only blackjack them in idle mode, and I think that's dumb and needs to be fixed. You shouldn't be able to blackjack them in direct combat mode no (not unless you flashbomb them first, but you couldn't do that in T3 either). But I see no reason why you couldn't take them down in search mode. I mean, he did it in the T3 intro movie for crying out loud!

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th May 2009, 13:43
Here's my suggestion: They can be woken up by another guard or person who finds them. If the would-be-rescuer guard finds a dead body, he obviously can't revive it but is extra-paranoid.

Otherwise they sleep with sweet dreams.

I like this idea, it means you should take extra care when concealing him/her.

As already mentioned, guards with helmets should be immune.

Mshade
13th May 2009, 13:56
I think guards should be able to be woken up by other guards if found. However, there should be severe damage to them comprimising thier ability to detect and fight. But they should not wake up by themselves or else the game would automatically encourage killing them instead because if they did wake up, the first thing they would do is sound the alarm to everyone else.

esme
13th May 2009, 14:16
if we have AI that wake up from a BJ then there should be a non lethal way of dealing with the unconcious body say by locking it in a cell to which it has no key, dropping it down a dry well thats not deep enough to kill it from the fall but too deep to climb out of or possibly even gagging and tying it up .... hmmm that may be a bit too S&M for some people ... and not enough for others ... anyway that sort of thing

so there's a time penalty involved in dealing with the unconcious AI to secure it or you can skip the time penalty and leave it trusting to get the job done before it recovers or you can kill the AI with all the noise, bloodspill evidence and possible taking of damage that that activity spawns

also there shouldn't be a springing into full consciousness with all hitpoints and combat ability restored from a knockout position, they should be groggy and disoriented possibly even to the point of attacking their own side for at least the same period of time they were unconscious

as for the KO of AI who are in search mode, I think it should be possible to KO any AI that isn't aware of your current position, so a flashbombed AI can't see you and is fair game even from the front, a searching AI or even an AI in active combat with another AI is fair game if you can get into position for a KO without it being aware you are there, however if you've just wandered through an AI's field of view and gone round behind it, it should be suspicious enough to make BJ'ing difficult if not impossible for a period of time at least

I do like the idea of AI being able to revive unconcious AI, that has interesting possibilities

acridrose
13th May 2009, 14:20
I think they should wake up, its more realistic that way. In real life it depends on how hard you hit person that decides how long they will be knocked out. So around 12-15 minutes is when they should wake up. Also like someone else mentioned earlier, if another guard finds a knocked out guard, then he should be able to wake that guard up.. Its only more realistic that way.

realism doesn't equal fun, matey.
I vote absolute no... it would be annoying!

HellKittyDan
13th May 2009, 14:21
What if you can't conceal them? Then the player is punished for something that is out of their control. It would lead to a bunch of technical contrivances. The mapper would then be responsible for making sure there were ample places to hide every single guard you might knock out. Kind of crippling as far as design goes.

Nonsense, in the original games it was always easy to hide bodies so they'd never be found. Bodies don't need to be hidden in specially placed containers Hitman: Blood Money style, they just need to be placed out of sight. There were always loads of places the AI didn't look, unless you gave them reason to.

You're wrong about it being out of the control of the player. The player chooses whether or not they knock someone out. The player chooses where they hide bodies. It's the players fault if they lead a pursuer to an area they've hidden unconscious bodies.

So my vote goes to blackjacked guards being woken up if discovered by allies. It'd also be nice if placing an unconscious body on a bed wouldn't cause guards to go on alert. The very first time I played TDP, I was really disappointed after going to all the trouble to place bodies on beds only to find it didn't mean anything. Unconscious guards found on beds would be woken up, while unconscious civilians would be ignored.

DarthEnder
13th May 2009, 14:40
Well it also depends on the person, I mean the guards are big tough guys right? I dont think they are wimps, they have high stamina, so technically they would recover faster than regular? Also dont they wear helmets?This is completely false. Being in shape or being strong does absolutely nothing to thicken your skull or toughen up your brain matter.

I properly done knockout should last for hours. Guards waking up isn't something that even needs to be taken into account within the scope of the game.


This isn't MGS where you can fill a guard full of tranquilizer darts and he'll be up and about 2 minutes later.

InGroove2
13th May 2009, 14:43
i am FOR guards waking up. I've always felt it was something that could have added to the complexity of the game. because obviously blackjacking is better than killing... i think in today's games, that's too cut and dry... you know ONE being clearly BETTER than the other. Giving 'blackjacking' a serious drawback would be great and tense.

but, they certainly should not go back to their route... they could simply wake up in ten minutes or so and simply sit there, as if they were a little out of if (i'm thikning like the drunk guards, easy to sneak past, but they were still basically aware of you), and maybe they'll just sit there so they can see you and call for a guard, but not really run away OR search for you (which is key) cause they're dabilitated, so then you'd have to either black jack them again or kill them (thei health would be reduced too).

mister_riz
13th May 2009, 14:57
They shouldn't wake up.

Gameplay > Realism every time.

Realist thinking over gameplay is just retarded

InGroove2
13th May 2009, 15:03
They shouldn't wake up.

Gameplay > Realism every time.

Realist thinking over gameplay is just retarded

this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with realism. like i said, if it was done well, the idea of adding a drawback to the blackjack COULD force you into deeper more strategic stealth... i mean i kinda think it could be funny to black jack a bunch of dudes, then when the mission is done and you're on your way out, you can simply walk past all the guards you blackjacked with them all sitting there whacked out yelling "hey, you there! stopp errhrgegeg... uhhh... i'm dizzy"

i'm just saying, the idea is not out of the question, as far as i'm concerned.... and i've always been a gameplay>realism type.... i think this could fit in.

InGroove2
13th May 2009, 15:14
Play a different game. Seriously, if you think that Thief should be like 'today's games' you should be playing a different game. Thief was Looking Glass Studio's answer to all the 'in your face' slaughter fests of the time. An original, quiet, reserved, slower paced, anti-FPS...hence, the First Person Sneaker. It's not a shooter and it should never try to be. They tried to make Deadly Shadows more actiony and it just felt wrong. The goals set out by looking glass studios to go against the grain is even more relevant today than it was back in the late nineties, and it's certainly something the industry needs. Aside from the Penumbra series (which drew inspiration from Thief), we don't have many games that dare to do what Thief did back then. I highly doubt we'll ever see it again.

wow. who said anything about it being "shooter" like? i mean, how can we be innovative with taht kind of black and white thinking? it's like saying that christopher nolan screwed up the batman legacyt because of where he took batman.

seriously, don't tell me to paly a different game. i have valid opinion and it's in the spirit of theif.

i didn't say shooter. i didn't say action. i didn't say bloodshed. don't put my comments in a little box cause you're missing the point and you're going to be left behind, because i think it's pretty safe to say eidos is GOING to HAVE to do new things with the game.

I know that the very mention of the phrase "in today's games" is kryptonite to your superman-underwear, but we're dealing with a TODAY game and a TODAY company and technology that is TODAY.

the point is that if you give the blackjack a sizeable drawback, you increase the strategic thinking and the need to consider why and who you are blackjacking.... isn't STEALTH a big deal? shouldn't we be wanting to make it harder? shouldn't we want to be MORE stealthy? sneaking up behind a guy and blackjacking him and that's it... that's not that tense... it's a tricky little finger trick, but with a freaking moss arrow.. it's pretty much child's play... NOT that i don't love doing it.

also, HOW is the idea WITH the grain exactly? what is WITH the grain about having guys wake up? how do you designate something as being "with" or "against" the grain??? it's ludicrous assertion.

Tohtori
13th May 2009, 15:25
I personally hate enemies that can't be fully cleaned away. And I think Thief should not teach players to kill everyone. In that T3 did go wrong way.

Blackjacked guards should wake up only if they are found (not to full strength). With randomly moving guards it would make hiding them better more important. And hiding should be made more improved. You could for example put those too tired guards to bed so other would have more trouble seeing something is wrong. And closets would be nice places to hide guards or perhaps even yourself.

Killing should not be impossible or denied but it should be punished more. You could gain bad reputation among others in the business. Maybe you could get less money from your loot when u sell it and some shopkeepers would even refuse to deal with you. And guards of course should be more alert when there is "serial killer thief" around and people would whisper "Did you know that some thief killed a guard on there?"

"You're a thief not a murderer."

Knocking out should also be like in T1 & 2. It is absurd and annoying that you can't BJ gurads that are in search mode.

TazmanianD
13th May 2009, 16:00
The point is that these 'areas' to hide bodies don't just create themselves, they have to be made by the mapper so that the AI absolutely will not find the body once it has been hidden.

Having an AI find an unconscious body is already punishment enough. The guard who discovers that body is going to alert his comrades. The player was trying to reduce the numbers of AI ...stealthily...but if they're just going to be awakened by comrades, the player might as well have just killed them because now they're going to have two angry guards to deal with...even if one is slightly disabled from the blackjack blow.
Those are all good points, but I think don't think it's a good argument against allowing another guard to wake up an unconscious guard. If the game is meant to allow the player to either knock out or kill a guard and the level designer does nothing to allow the player to hide the bodies, that is poor level design. It doesn't seem to me to make much of a difference that you have either one or two upset guards to deal with. I would prefer having zero upset guards because the knocked out or dead body is hiding.

HellKittyDan
13th May 2009, 16:07
Well, I've spent the last 5 years helping to make a Thief inspired mod. Perhaps we've run through a lot of these scenarios already? I don't know...maybe? Nah, probably not...right?

What was the point of mentioning this? Are you trying to claim that by being part of a mod, you automatically know better than me or anyone else here?


The point is that these 'areas' to hide bodies don't just create themselves, they have to be made by the mapper so that the AI absolutely will not find the body once it has been hidden.

So I've knocked out this guard:

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1610/thief1u.jpg

Maybe I'll hide him here:

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4465/thief2j.jpg

Or here:

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1118/thief3m.jpg

Or maybe here:

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7409/thief4.jpg

Or maybe even here:

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/4332/thief5.jpg

All of these locations are perfectly acceptable hiding spots, as guards don't patrol here, and they won't see the body unless I do something that puts them on alert which causes them to look in these locations.

I can even do this in The Dark Mod:

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9803/darkmod.jpg

Knock him out, drag him into the room, close the door. No problem.

It's not rocket science. In the original games, the levels are large, and not every square inch of them is patrolled, so like I said, there are many locations in the original games players can hide bodies, and they don't even need to be designed specifically as body hiding zones. Getting to the end of a mission without having bodies found isn't even particularly difficult.

Your apparent belief that areas need to be specifically designed to hide bodies in suggests you're missing the point. If particular areas are set aside for players to dump bodies in with a 100% guarantee that they'll never be found, then there isn't really any point in having the AI wake up.


You reward stealth...you do not punish it or hinder it.

Using this logic, LGS should have made guards invisible the moment you hit them with the blackjack. If they let guards find bodies, then they're punishing the player, right? Of course the reality is that if a guard has found a body, then it's because the player has failed to be stealthy, and yes they should be punished for that.

Player knocks out Guard #1. The body is found by Guard #2. Player has failed to hide the body and is therefore punished for it. In Thief 1, 2, and 3, the player is punished by having Guard #2 go to the alert stage. In a possible Thief 4, the player is punished by having Guard #2 wake Guard #1 and they both enter the alert stage. What this provides is a greater challenge, and a greater challenge is exactly what I hope EM will provide with Thief 4.

I don't agree at all with those who claim this will just encourage players to kill guards instead of knocking them out, especially if they keep the no kill requirement that changes in each difficulty level. What it encourages is for the player to put some thought into their actions, and in this age of people constantly whining about games being dumbed down, you'd think people would welcome a greater challenge.

And even if some players do prefer to kill rather than knock out, at the easiest difficulty level that's a valid play style (even if I personally find it lazy).

Edit: jpg compression makes hiding bodies even easier...

HellKittyDan
13th May 2009, 17:05
You can hide bodies and not have to worry about them being found in St Lucia as easily as you can in the original games, so clearly that's not a problem. If devs, modders or professional, don't want to include a particular feature because they don't like it, or they feel it'll make the game more challenging than they want, that's fine, but claims that such a feature would require too much work and cripple design are simply false.

xXFl4meXx
13th May 2009, 17:16
wow. who said anything about it being "shooter" like? i mean, how can we be innovative with taht kind of black and white thinking? it's like saying that christopher nolan screwed up the batman legacyt because of where he took batman.

seriously, don't tell me to paly a different game. i have valid opinion and it's in the spirit of theif.

i didn't say shooter. i didn't say action. i didn't say bloodshed. don't put my comments in a little box cause you're missing the point and you're going to be left behind, because i think it's pretty safe to say eidos is GOING to HAVE to do new things with the game.

I know that the very mention of the phrase "in today's games" is kryptonite to your superman-underwear, but we're dealing with a TODAY game and a TODAY company and technology that is TODAY.

the point is that if you give the blackjack a sizeable drawback, you increase the strategic thinking and the need to consider why and who you are blackjacking.... isn't STEALTH a big deal? shouldn't we be wanting to make it harder? shouldn't we want to be MORE stealthy? sneaking up behind a guy and blackjacking him and that's it... that's not that tense... it's a tricky little finger trick, but with a freaking moss arrow.. it's pretty much child's play... NOT that i don't love doing it.

also, HOW is the idea WITH the grain exactly? what is WITH the grain about having guys wake up? how do you designate something as being "with" or "against" the grain??? it's ludicrous assertion.

QFT :thumb:

DarthEnder
13th May 2009, 17:25
The drawback to blackjacking a guard is that it's 10 times more complicated than shooting them in the throat with an arrow from 50 feet away.

Blackjacking may seem easy to you, but the alternative to knocking them out is still way easier.




But you're missing the most important reason not to have guards wake up. It's because doing so essentially turns the entire game into a series of timed mission(unless your gonna have guards act as if nothing happened when they wake up, which negates your whole "realism" argument). And in stealth games, players don't like to feel rushed. It's about patience and exploration, and you can't do that if your constantly in a "****, I have like 3 minutes left before that guard at the front door wakes up, I gotta move!"

Tohtori
13th May 2009, 17:33
I can't really see how can two alert guards be more punishment than one. They will eventually alarm more guards and you are in troubles anyway. If the AI is well designed waken guard won't just stand up and start looking but needs care and the other guard will concentrate on him for a while. This gives an opportunity for using knocked out guards as bates for more knockouts.

DarthEnder
13th May 2009, 17:44
You're talking about a found guard, not a guard simply waking up on his own.

I actually have no problem with a guard waking up a KO'd guard if he stumbles accross him.


I have a problem with a guard just waking up for reason mentioned above.

Basically, unless the guard was drunk, a security guard waking up lying on the floor in the closet should elicit only one response from that guard. Raising the alarm. Anything else is bull****.

And since that would make the game suck, don't have them wake up.

InGroove2
13th May 2009, 17:44
The drawback to blackjacking a guard is that it's 10 times more complicated than shooting them in the throat with an arrow from 50 feet away.

Blackjacking may seem easy to you, but the alternative to knocking them out is still way easier.




But you're missing the most important reason not to have guards wake up. It's because doing so essentially turns the entire game into a series of timed mission(unless your gonna have guards act as if nothing happened when they wake up, which negates your whole "realism" argument). And in stealth games, players don't like to feel rushed. It's about patience and exploration, and you can't do that if your constantly in a "****, I have like 3 minutes left before that guard at the front door wakes up, I gotta move!"

considering how killing an enemy will eventually (most of the time) alert guards, it's not necessarily that much more or less comlicated than black jacking. especially since the AI could move around and find the dead guard or blood whilst you're far away making them alert and paranoid while you're on the other side of the map, making your return to that area more difficult.and the waking up DOES NOT necessarily make the missions timed.
as i continue to point out.. .the idea in general is not out of the question and has room to be explored without making the kind of impact you seem to think is inevitable.

the "wake up" time would not have to be consistent, and certainly there would be no count down timer. and yes the world must be slow, but tense does not mean that you will go faster or act more impulsively. it just means that your decisions are that much more important. the game would still be slow, because you would approach everything with such caution and intelligence.

why in gods name would you "race' to get out before all your guards wake up?

what about the possibility of you knocking out a guard, throwing him in a closet, he wakes up and gets fraeked out and calls guards to find him, then those guards are distravcted to that area and you can make a move toward where the guards just were?

i'm jhust pointing out that there are some cool outcomes that can be explored, in a design sense.... instead of just negating the whole idea. stanley kubrick lived by the idea that no idea was a studid idea.... and he was a g-damned genius whether you liked the films or not.

The Deuce
13th May 2009, 18:02
i am FOR guards waking up. I've always felt it was something that could have added to the complexity of the game. because obviously blackjacking is better than killing... i think in today's games, that's too cut and dry... you know ONE being clearly BETTER than the other.

WTF is that supposed to mean? Today's games? As opposed to what? Yesterday's games where knockouts were more common? What does the time period in which the game is made have to do with this? The technology was certainly there to have guards wake up in Thief 1, but Looking Glass knew better than to do that, because it would've sucked, and the game was specifically trying to be different than the kill fests of its time. If you don't like Thief's particular niche, there's plenty of other games you can play.

InGroove2
13th May 2009, 18:15
WTF is that supposed to mean? Today's games? As opposed to what? Yesterday's games where knockouts were more common? What does the time period in which the game is made have to do with this? The technology was certainly there to have guards wake up in Thief 1, but Looking Glass knew better than to do that, because it would've sucked, and the game was specifically trying to be different than the kill fests of its time. If you don't like Thief's particular niche, there's plenty of other games you can play.

give me a break. there's alot more to whether or not a feature like this would have been useful or relevant or better or worse back then aside form simply whether or not they COULD do it.

by "today's games", i meant simply in an industry that has already had 3 games where the guards DON'T wake up in thief and other stealth games, seems to me, artistically someone would want to answer that question "what could happen in a thief game if the guards actually woke up from being blackjacked?".

this idea that Looking Glass is GOD and WOULD have done it if it WERE a good idea is just about the dumbest and most pansy idea i've heard. yes, they were great, but your speculation is absurd beyond reason.

how bouat thief4 try and "be diofferent" too? how about they think outside of the box? turn an idea that could be catasrophic into something great... cause if you look at theif and games like it... (SS2, DX) those games, on paper, didn't by any means spell out "huge cult success" and all the ideas in there were just as destined to crash and burn as they were to succeed.

it simply blows my mind the amount of people who resist change and the idea that something NEW could be as good as something old? How can there ever be innovation?

sorry, i don't want thief 1 or thief 2 or theif 3 again, i want theif 4 to have things in it that i never thought of or that i wondered what they would be like while i was playing theif 1,2,3. lord knows, i wondered often what would happen if some guards woke up... frankly, i'd like to see it. it would be interesting.

OnionKnight
13th May 2009, 18:18
I am no expert on knocking people unconscious, but I am under the impression that they usually don't wake up until after a few hours. Now take your traditional Thief mission and it's really a quick heist that doesn't go on for longer than 1-2 hours.
If we're being realistic, then they really should be staying down for the whole mission.

For a big city hub, then I wouldn't really have any trouble with guards waking up after a long time, taking whatever action. If the player did something like throw the body in an impossible place to recover then the game could discreetly teleport the guard up whenever the player is not watching.


What if you can't conceal them? Then the player is punished for something that is out of their control. It would lead to a bunch of technical contrivances. The mapper would then be responsible for making sure there were ample places to hide every single guard you might knock out. Kind of crippling as far as design goes.
The player would be punished for not thinking his plans all the way through. First thing you do is find all the dark spots and corners you can or cannot use. Maybe the player would find that you'd need to do some major backtracking for a good spot for the body. Then you might start considering taking guards out.

Also a scenario where you couldn't conceal the bodies would be interesting, as it would force the player into acting more like a thief than a killing machine. I would reserve that for higher difficulties though, and for areas that you won't return to. Like a small passage leading to some elusive loot or so.


You could knock out people in Thief 1 and 2 who were in search mode. Just not when they were chasing you.
You could actually knock them out when they were chasing you, but you'd have to be in complete darkness and blackjack them from behind. I shamefully abused this for a mission in Thief 2 (I think), which had the dreaded MARBLE FLOOR all over the place. I got so annoyed by it that I just got the attention of 3 guards, chased them into a dark spot and then circled around them while blackjacking.

I'd agree that you should be able to take guards out while they are searching though, but they could possibly be a bit more acute and you'd have a harder time sneaking up on them. As for flash grenades for picking people off, I think it might become too easy since they're so common. The gas grenades already do the job and are a lot more difficult to get a hold of.

Another thing that annoyed me in Thief 3 was that you couldn't get a guard from the sides, you just had to be standing right behind them or else you just angered them.

Terr
13th May 2009, 18:36
The point is that these 'areas' to hide bodies don't just create themselves, they have to be made by the mapper so that the AI absolutely will not find the body once it has been hidden.

OK, I think we're talking about different things.

I'm thinking about tapping a guard and stashing him in a dark alleyway that's on nobody's patrol routes.

You seem to be thinking about some sort of designated "special bodies" dumpster with a magical "You cannot detect this body" effect to the AI.

If you're making a stealth game and the player must hide from the AI, the same principles should govern the AI finding dead/unconscious bodies. If you have to use special map entities--besides the shadows and corners that should be in the map anyway for the player--then that's a sign the AI is broken or improperly designed for a stealth game in the first place.


You reward stealth...you do not punish it or hinder it.
The reward for stealthily hiding a body is that the active guards don't find it.


_____________

Things I don't want to see from other games:
Guards waking up on a timer. It basically rushes your missions and discourages exploration.
Bodies which must be hidden, even if every guard is knocked out. If a body is lying in full-view in a bright hallway, it's only a problem if a real actor finds it.

nicked
13th May 2009, 18:51
The problem with guards waking up is that a lot of players wouldn't want to take that risk, and will slaughter every living thing in the mission to make it easier for themselves. Of course, the real solution is to ghost the game and never have to worry about it in the first place! :D

DarthEnder
13th May 2009, 21:09
considering how killing an enemy will eventually (most of the time) alert guardsNot if you kill all of them, which, again, killing even several guards with arrows is still easier than blackjacking one.

It's just, "Bam, drop that guard up on the balcony." "Bam. Drop the one walking into that alley. Walk around the corner and, Bam. Drop the one in the hall and Bam. Drop the one at the door." You don't have to clean blood or even move bodies because there's nobody left to find them. And you've neutralized in about 30 seconds what would have taken you 5 minutes to neutralize between dousing lights, laying moss, sneaking up to, knocking out and hiding all the bodies.

Face it. Killing is it's own reward because it's just easier.


the "wake up" time would not have to be consistent, and certainly there would be no count down timer. So it's still a countdown timer, only it's random, so there's no way you can plan for it...that's MUCH better...

InGroove2
13th May 2009, 21:38
Not if you kill all of them, which, again, killing even several guards with arrows is still easier than blackjacking one.

It's just, "Bam, drop that guard up on the balcony." "Bam. Drop the one walking into that alley. Walk around the corner and, Bam. Drop the one in the hall and Bam. Drop the one at the door." You don't have to clean blood or even move bodies because there's nobody left to find them. And you've neutralized in about 30 seconds what would have taken you 5 minutes to neutralize between dousing lights, laying moss, sneaking up to, knocking out and hiding all the bodies.

Face it. Killing is it's own reward because it's just easier.

So it's still a countdown timer, only it's random, so there's no way you can plan for it...that's MUCH better...


i can;'t think of a scenario in any of the games where you'd be able to wipe the place clean by killing the guards like that. where did you dream that scenario up?

2nd: please GET a point. your responses are completely erroneous in that they address only ONE scenario of which you've dreamt up, clearly NOT based on my posts, of which your intent is to respond to.

just accept the fact taht your negating an idea and you don't have enough knowledge to dismiss it intelligently.

i'm not saying iu'm right... i'm just more just in allowing it to be a possibility for innovation.

Danie1
13th May 2009, 21:46
Waking guards would promote moving faster though levels and missions. Hence, if a player knocks out one guard, they'll likely go on a KO spree to finish objectives before they have to pay the penalty. If you try to combat this with a shorter wake up time for the guards, it just makes things aggravating and for those arguing for realism, it's hardly realistic to wake up soon after being hit on the back of the head without even expecting it.

Blackjacking is already a challange, and difficulty depends on the situation. A guard patrolling an unlit hallway will be easy to take out, a couple of guards looking after a well lit jewelery display will be harder to deal with.

DarthEnder
13th May 2009, 22:04
i can;'t think of a scenario in any of the games where you'd be able to wipe the place clean by killing the guards like that. where did you dream that scenario up?I can do it with every level in Thief 2 except the two that don't allow you to kill even on easy. I'm sorry your experience with the game is so limited.


Your entire argument is hinged on the idea that knockouts should be limited duration to balance out the choice of kill vs. KO, but you've somehow completely failed to realize that KO's are already balanced against killing by dint of the fact that they take longer and require more work. That was my point, I'm sorry you missed it.

The Deuce
13th May 2009, 22:11
give me a break. there's alot more to whether or not a feature like this would have been useful or relevant or better or worse back then aside form simply whether or not they COULD do it.
It's pretty tough to understand you, but I'm interpreting this to mean that there were more factors determining whether or not guards waking up would've been a good idea beyond just the ability to make the game that way. Well, no s***, Sherlock. That's what I just said. One factor is that it would have totally ruined the game's mechanics. No doubt, that's why Looking Glass didn't do it, even though they could have.


by "today's games", i meant simply in an industry that has already had 3 games where the guards DON'T wake up in thief and other stealth games, seems to me, artistically someone would want to answer that question "what could happen in a thief game if the guards actually woke up from being blackjacked?".
BS. Nobody with minimal proficiency in the English language would ever interpret "today's games" to mean "an industry that has already had 3 games where the guards DON'T wake up in thief and other stealth games".


this idea that Looking Glass is GOD and WOULD have done it if it WERE a good idea is just about the dumbest and most pansy idea i've heard. yes, they were great, but your speculation is absurd beyond reason.
The idea is pansy? Do you even know what that word means? You seem to be a bit fuzzy on "speculation" too.


just accept the fact taht your negating an idea and you don't have enough knowledge to dismiss it intelligently.

i'm not saying iu'm right... i'm just more just in allowing it to be a possibility for innovation.
Um, no, you threw an idea out there for consideration, and everybody else considered it, and explained why it wouldn't work from a game mechanics perspective. So far, you haven't explained how it could possibly work, or given any evidence to the contrary. You just keep saying that it could somehow, and insisting that it is in some way "innovative".

Subjective Effect
13th May 2009, 22:15
I think they should wake up, its more realistic that way. In real life it depends on how hard you hit person that decides how long they will be knocked out.
Incorrect.

Using a blackjack will certainly take someone out for the whole night. Blackjacks or saps are actually close to lethal and cause significant injury. The recovery period would more likely be days, weeks or even months.

Gas arrows on the other hand - yeah, they should have a finite knockout time.

Frayga
13th May 2009, 22:23
How about this...

Make different types of Guards
Make each guard have different resistances. People have different resistances to things. An archer isn't going to be as fit or strong as a burly axe carrier. A large Sword wielding baddy will probably have grown up brawling throughout their lives. They are going to be more conditioned to hits to the head.
People do wake up after being knocked out. Their resistance to a black jack, which only looks about 2/3 pounds, should manifest itself in the time it takes to wake up. A good time for this is around 15-20 minutes. A true thief's job shouldn't take any longer anyway. if a mission lasts longer than that, you can either oust them later, after you knock them out in a concealed place. Simple.
There should also be an option to kill an opponent bloodlessly. Why not take a long pin, about 10 inches in length. you can pierce any of the vital organs of a sleeping(Knocked out) enemy and cause internal bleeding to kill them. To any outward observer, it looks like they are sleeping.

The_Hammerite
13th May 2009, 22:35
Uh...no? A blackjack is a nice heavy piece of lead wrapped generally in leather; if someone cracks you with one you could be down for hours, which is assuming that one of a couple other things doesn't happen to you; if someone catches you in the head with one, it could cave in part of your skull, cause brain hemorrhage...if they catch you in the spine you could be permanently paralyzed. Just let them stay down. More true to life.

DarthEnder
13th May 2009, 22:40
Make each guard have different resistances. People have different resistances to things. An archer isn't going to be as fit or strong as a burly axe carrier. A large Sword wielding baddy will probably have grown up brawling throughout their lives. They are going to be more conditioned to hits to the head.Again. You can't "exercise" yourself to more blackjack resistance. Being fit makes you no more resilient to a blackjack than not being in shape. It's like saying you want to train your eyeball to be more resistant. It's impossible.

There's no way to build muscle around your skull, and there's no way to toughen up your brain through training. In fact as you suffer more blows to the head, you become more susceptible to it, not less.

If you want to protect yourself from being knocked out from a blow to the head, you wear a helmet. Aside from that, there's nothing you can do.

The_Hammerite
13th May 2009, 22:41
Uh...no? A blackjack is a nice heavy piece of lead wrapped generally in leather; if someone cracks you with one you could be down for hours, which is assuming that one of a couple other things doesn't happen to you; if someone catches you in the head with one, it could cave in part of your skull, cause brain hemorrhage...if they catch you in the spine you could be permanently paralyzed. Just let them stay down. More true to life.

Sykyrys
13th May 2009, 22:50
guards waking up is stupid...if I were a thief I'd hit them so hard they'd be in a coma for days

Botlas
13th May 2009, 22:53
A blackjack is basically a heavy weight wrapped in leather. It's still lethal if you're hitting someone hard enough. I always assumed that Garrett was just knocking out everyone, since he's a master thief and all that. In the hands of a "normal" person, probably half the people that you hit with the blackjack in the course of the Thief games would've died from a brain hemorrage, especially given that you throw them around like a sack of potatoes if you move them. Anyway, short version is, it'd probably take a long time for someone to wake up after getting knocked out with a blackjack. I don't think having them wake up is more realistic.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't implement it in the game, as the ultimate goal is to make the game fun. The game can be a bit too easy if you take the "knock out everyone you see" approach, so this may be a way to address it. If they did implement it, you should have the option to tie them up and gag them, so that you didn't have to worry about them sounding the alarm. This might make an interesting mechanic; if you're limited in the amount of gags/ropes you carry, you'd have to be more strategic about who you knock out and who you snuck by. If you run out of binds, you'd have to either finish really quickly or sneak by everyone.

A piece of trivia is that getting knocked out by blow to the head usually causes limited amnesia, so they're not going to remember what they were doing when they passed out. If the guard was drunk when you blackjacked him, he might just think he passed out from the liquor. If he was sober, he might get freaked out and sound the alarm. That might be another interesting mechanic, making you pay more attention to the guard's state before you decide to whether or not to club him.

I'd rather they didn't wake up. But I could see how it could work for making the play mechanics more complex.

Terr
13th May 2009, 23:01
The fundamental argument for unlimited sleep-time is that it provides for richer gameplay mechanics. While a timer would cause interesting effects in the short term, it's far more important to preserve the exploration aspect of the game.


Using a blackjack will certainly take someone out for the whole night.

I think we (collectively) should agree that the "realism (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TapOnTheHead)" of black-jacking someone doesn't matter at all in the game. If necessary, you could always lampshade longer times by attributing some magical effect to Garret's weapon, or explaining that he doses the guards with something after they fall down. Whatever.

The question is how to maximize fun for the player.

Terr
14th May 2009, 00:42
BTW, has anyone played Crysis?

The sleeping ("tactical") darts in that game were totally useless. The enemies woke up so quickly It was actually more effective to shoot your enemies in the head. (And you couldn't disarm them while they were down without killing them anyway.)

It's an example where a wake-up timer ruins a feature.

Mr McGee
14th May 2009, 01:56
It's pretty difficult to make up my mind on what I want. Both sides have very convincing arguments to me.

Neb
14th May 2009, 02:18
There should also be an option to kill an opponent bloodlessly. Why not take a long pin, about 10 inches in length. you can pierce any of the vital organs of a sleeping(Knocked out) enemy and cause internal bleeding to kill them.

That's perhaps the most repulsive suggestion I've ever heard for a video game.

:confused:

HellKittyDan
14th May 2009, 05:07
OK, I think we're talking about different things.

I'm thinking about tapping a guard and stashing him in a dark alleyway that's on nobody's patrol routes.

You seem to be thinking about some sort of designated "special bodies" dumpster with a magical "You cannot detect this body" effect to the AI.

If you're making a stealth game and the player must hide from the AI, the same principles should govern the AI finding dead/unconscious bodies. If you have to use special map entities--besides the shadows and corners that should be in the map anyway for the player--then that's a sign the AI is broken or improperly designed for a stealth game in the first place.

The reward for stealthily hiding a body is that the active guards don't find it.


This.

First off I should point out that I don't like the idea of unconscious guards waking after after a set amount of time, I'm only for unconscious guards being woken up after being found by other guards. If they are never found they never wake up.

Secondly, as Terr mentions, in a stealth game like Thief, levels are going to be designed in such a way that they are going to be full of places the player can hide. Many of the places the player can hide are places bodies can be dumped without ever being found. This is exactly how all three Thief games already work.


Our AI in St. Lucia aren't 'finished'...nor did they always 'see' properly. They were very much "WIP". If I remember correctly, their tactile responses weren't quite up to snuff.

So how will the AI work when it is "up to snuff"? Unless in the final version guards will be able see everything, even if it's completely hidden in shadows (both the player and bodies), and the AI constantly patrols every inch of the level even when not on alert and is sure to check every nook and cranny, I don't see how this could be a problem.


I assure, they're not false, but you're welcome to join us and prove us all wrong.

As Terr has already pointed out, if the level doesn't include places to hide (either for the player or for bodies) then it's poorly designed. As all three games already feature numerous locations to hide bodies in, both the LGS and ISA teams have proven your claims that it'd require a crippling level of extra work to be false. Including a winking smile doesn't make your "I know better than you" attitude any less condescending.

Grimmy
14th May 2009, 10:08
I fear that guards waking up from ko would turn the game into Thievery, where ppl throw bjed bodies into some unavailble places or when they simply wait for the guard to respawn and ko him again...worst thing - this may lead to killing guards around so that they don't have the chance of ressurection xD

I'd say no to this idea.

Alex50
14th May 2009, 11:24
No, no. Any automatic awakening deafened the guards. There was already such game - Stolien, where the guard woke up in 1-3 minutes, it really irritates. Besides it will provoke the player on murder the guards - more easy to kill than to think when he will wake up. The helmet will not rescue from a knockout. You received impact in a helmet? Ask the people engaged by historical games. The helmet will rescue your skull from split, but from a knockout and concussion of a brain will not rescue.
The guard can will wake up, if he will be helped by other character. It as the penalty for the badly hidden body. Besides in game there can be enemies indifferent to blackjack, such as zomby, hant, phantom, alive tree and others
I would not want that the robberies of a private residence therefrom took out mountains of corpses. The guards are the simple people protecting another's riches for small money.
The excellent Thief - all is stolen, nobody has suffered, the guards are tormented from a headache, the owner is angry from the lost riches. The people speak " Garett the foreman of a shadow, could plunder such richman "
The bad Thief - all is stolen, everywhere corpses and rout, the owner of a private residence lays in a pool of blood in the bedroom. The people speak " Garett - usual murderer, has killed all. Even the cat has killed, that the guards would not excite "

Durinda D'Bry
14th May 2009, 11:34
It would be very nice to have finite time of AI unconscious state (depending on AI abilities and blackjack hit parameters). It also would be very nice to have transition state for knocked out AI - it stands up after recovered and probably not very efficient in his actions some time. And also then he should alert or investigate or attack. But this is probably pretty hard to implement without chance of stupid side effects.
I think it is wrong if you cannot blackjack at all sleeping or sitting character, also it should be possible to blackjack when somebody sees you - but of course it is only for weak characters. Also if flash bomb used it should be possible to blackjack (again depending of AI strength).
And of course difficulty levels should be configured to prevent experts from mass blackjacking.

Espion
14th May 2009, 13:46
wow. who said anything about it being "shooter" like? i mean, how can we be innovative with taht kind of black and white thinking? it's like saying that christopher nolan screwed up the batman legacyt because of where he took batman.

Worst possible example there buddy since Nolan took Batman closer to it's roots than any of the films to date.


how bouat thief4 try and "be diofferent" too? how about they think outside of the box?

Because, to put it simply, it would no longer be a sequel to Thief. When you make a sequel there are certain boundaries that, to some extent, you have to remain in. If they think outside of the box and try to be different... Or diofferent... then they might as well make an entirely new franchise, declare that they were inspired by the Thief series, and live without the ire that they'll incure by pissing off the vast majority of Thief fans. Thief 3 tried to change too much and it suffered for it. Thief 4 would be wise not to make the same mistake.

As a side note, please could you try to calm down. Reading your progressively angrier posts does little to help your argument. Especially when you start name-calling.

As far as the topic is concerned; numerous people have already pointed out that using a blackjack would leave the victim incapacitated for a considerable amount of time so as far as "realism" is concerned I think the "blackjackee" should remain unconscious.

If it becomes possible for another guard to wake his downed colleague, then at most I imagine the victim would sit there, very drowsy, and unable to do much more than try to yell if he sees the player again.

If that were to be implimented, then to balance it out I think it would be cool to see new ways of hiding the bodies beyond stashing them in a shadow or a rarely visited room (I'd have one room in a level where I'd pile all the unconscious guards :D).

The ability to leave bottles next to bodies, leave victims lying on a bed, stashing them in cupboards or barrells, throwing them into a pile of hay or some other object that would camoflage them, for example.

Imagine this scenario; A player had made a plan that depended on them knocking out guard 1, hiding the body, then getting into position to knock out guard 2 before his patrol brings him into the area.

Rather than panic whilst trying to hide the body and then return to a hiding place, it would be nice to be able to sit the body on a chair (fob the chair whilst holding the body to automatically put him there instead of trying to drop the body onto the chair) and leave a bottle nearby to make it appear as though guard 1 had had too much to drink and sat down. Guard 2 makes a remark but as the situation doesn't look too suspicious he keeps moving along his patrol allowing the player to sneak out and blackjack him.

Not only would this give the player more options on how to play, it would increase the implied situational awareness of the NPCs by making them react to what they see rather than sob in despair that their friend is dead (even though he's only unconscious). This kind of thing really adds to the immerssion of a game and gives the player a satisfying reward for their quick thinking on how to hide a guard without resorting to carrying them accross the level to a hiding place.

As a point, I'd like to say that Garrett wouldn't have to carry 9000 bottles with him with the intent of leaving them next to unconscious bodies. As you will all recall, there are always plenty of things lying around, including bottles, that the player could pick up and throw. Planting these bottles next to the bodies would add to the ability to pick things up.

Lastly,


This might make an interesting mechanic; if you're limited in the amount of gags/ropes you carry

This made me laugh :D The idea of a master thief sneaking around carrying a sackful of gags and rope instead loot is amusing.

I'm not taking the piss here, and sorry if it looks like I am, but in reality, you'd simply use items on the victims person to tie them up. These days shoelaces are often used for this kind of thing. In a medieval setting the victims would have all kinds of rope and material in their clothing alone that could be used as a makeshift gag and rope.

Reaper200
14th May 2009, 16:01
No, that's not what I said. I said, "The player was trying to reduce the numbers of AI ...[B]stealthily." Hiding the body is a completely separate issue from the knock out...they're related, but not bound. If the player doesn't kill the guard, and that guard is found because they were too lazy to properly hide it, the end result is that the alert guards will sound alarms and notify their comrades. The player is punished for being careless in that regard. If you also wake up the guard, the player is punished twice...once for acting carelessly and the other for acting properly.

So do you support the idea that once a guard finds an indivudal who has been blackjacked, he then raises the alarm throughout a large section of the map? Will the Dark Mod include that?

Because one of the things i hated about the past Thief games is that once a dead/unconcious body was found all that would happen is the guard who found it would go on alert. I think there should be more far reaching effects with the guard alerting his buddies at other positions.

I'm not sure about Guards waking other Guards up if found. I guess it could work if done properly. I also wouldn't mind an extremely low chance (2-3%) of a guard waking up by himself after an extended period of time and just sitting there looking dazed. But I would not want him alerting other guards unless you really are taking hours to complete a mission and i absolutely would not want it becoming a common thing.

EDIT: As for the Batman example i don't think its that bad an example. I really enjoyed the films but Nolan made changes to the series which were bad, like the new bat mobile. Also i think the Joker in the comics is different to what Heath Ledger potrayed. I mean the only characteristic they seem to have took from the comics is his insanity when he was so much more. Nicholson played him a tad too 'cuddly' (is that the word?) and Ledger took it right in the other direction.

Belboz
14th May 2009, 16:58
I usually stick KO'ed guards at the bottom of a hole, or in a place they can't escape from, so if they did wake up, they wouldn't be able to do much, except wander around at the bottom of a hole and curse.

Espion
14th May 2009, 17:09
... one of the things i hated about the past Thief games is that once a dead/unconcious body was found all that would happen is the guard who found it would go on alert. I think there should be more far reaching effects with the guard alerting his buddies at other positions.

Agreed. Though to some extent I seem to recall this happening in levels where there was an alarm button that could be pushed. It's been a while since I played through the first two games (I pull them out once a year) and I've been having trouble getting TG working on Vista :scratch:

It always bothered me when a guard found someone unconscious and all they did was look for me a bit before going back to their standard patrol route. It would be a bit more realistic (from a suspension of disbelief P.O.V) if all guards became more alert, started wandering off their patrol routes a bit, looking in places they wouldn't normally, and generally beaing a little more cautious.

I know it would make the game considerably harder in some respects but maybe it's something that could be featured in an expert difficulty only. At the end of the day, If I'm careless enough to leave a body where it could be discovered I have nobody to blame but myself. Besides, it's not like it's not possible to knock out a guard in search mode... Not in the first two games anyway.

As for Batman, my point was that the spirit, the general style, and the main motives were closer to the roots. I know a lot of people didn't like the Tumbler but even that was a fairly accurate representation in its own way; Bruce Wayne using his vast fortune and resources to create an armoured vehicle. Yeah, it didn't have bat wings on the tail or flashing logos on the hubcaps but it still managed to fulfil the concept of the batmobile and stay within the more down-to-earth style that Nolan was going for. The same can be said for the Joker.

Likewise, with Thief, there are core concepts, or in the case of this argument there are core gameplay mechanics that make Thief what it is. If you start toying with them too much then you end up with something that doesn't play or feel right. The best example here would be the blackjack and how it worked in Thief 3. It felt horrible having to wait for it to raise into position and I believe it even eliminated the ability to knock someone out whilst airbourne.

When making a sequel, the mentality should always be "If it ain't broke." Thief 2 did this perfectly, taking what worked from the first game and building on it. This is what they should be doing with Thief 4. Take the core gameplay, add new layers to it, but definitely don't go changing something as fundamental as the guards waking up (at least to the point where they're walking around and attacking again). It would make it an entirely different game and, as I've said before, if that's the route you're going down change the name of the game and cite Thief as an inspiration.

Edit: Oh, and if anyone knows how to get Thief working on Vista (beyond the guide posted on TTLG) I'd love you forever in a completely plutonic, never gonna see me, more of a clap-on-the-back-and-a-hearty-thanks kind of way. :D

InGroove2
14th May 2009, 17:20
It's pretty tough to understand you, but I'm interpreting this to mean that there were more factors determining whether or not guards waking up would've been a good idea beyond just the ability to make the game that way. Well, no s***, Sherlock. That's what I just said. One factor is that it would have totally ruined the game's mechanics. No doubt, that's why Looking Glass didn't do it, even though they could have.


BS. Nobody with minimal proficiency in the English language would ever interpret "today's games" to mean "an industry that has already had 3 games where the guards DON'T wake up in thief and other stealth games".


The idea is pansy? Do you even know what that word means? You seem to be a bit fuzzy on "speculation" too.


Um, no, you threw an idea out there for consideration, and everybody else considered it, and explained why it wouldn't work from a game mechanics perspective. So far, you haven't explained how it could possibly work, or given any evidence to the contrary. You just keep saying that it could somehow, and insisting that it is in some way "innovative".

a) i think it was much more simple than that. you told me, as i understood it, that if it were a good idea, they would have done it... which is a major speculation without anything behind it.... despite your stating it in a factual manner. The reasons for not doing it could have been many, not necessarily that it's out of the question.

b)proficientcy in english??? pardon the "poetic liscense" i took with that statement. why couldn't the phrase "today's games" be interpereted to mean simply games that evolve from their history... which include the thief games.

c) do i know what the word means? no i just use words without any regard as to their meaning.... though i'll admit to being a hurried typer and uninterested in correcting typeogaraphikal earrers.

d) no one has sufficiently closed the book as to why the idea would not work. so i insist still that it could. i could go on and on and speculate as to how it could, but what would be the point of that? because it turns into a pissing match, which it has anyway i suppose.
i did have some speculation as to how it COULD work, but it wasn't really addressed in any kind of constructive manner.

i guess my irritation is that there seems to pretty limited thinking here, which is fine, becuase in just about all of my posts i insist that i was just pointing out a possibility, and somehow that incites a real neagtive reaction.... which makes no sense to me.... it seems to me... to be incredibly unentertaining to piss on an idea than to mine it for all it could be worth.

like i said, kubrick always stood by the "no idea is a stupid one".

InGroove2
14th May 2009, 17:26
I can do it with every level in Thief 2 except the two that don't allow you to kill even on easy. I'm sorry your experience with the game is so limited.


Your entire argument is hinged on the idea that knockouts should be limited duration to balance out the choice of kill vs. KO, but you've somehow completely failed to realize that KO's are already balanced against killing by dint of the fact that they take longer and require more work. That was my point, I'm sorry you missed it.


don't be sorry. that's a pretty lame way to play the game as far as i'm concerned, do i need to "experience" killing every dude in the place? if it were really that easy then why wouldn't it be the first choice of all players?? seems like a weird paradox that i don't really care to investigate. also, if you really read what i had been saying, is why i suggested that one stipulation for having guards wake up would be stiffer punishment for killing people.... as in, MAKE the game so that you can't just kill everyone off as you suggest.

and, while i relaly appreciate your point, despite my irritated tone, i just think that the balance you're talking about is slightly artificial, as i see it. like, you are wanting to keep a balance in the sense that a player can choose to play how they want. kill or blackjack or ghost... to put it simply. But a deeper more complex balance could be struck by adding more drawbacks to each and possibly more reward. To me it's another fly in the ointment, which i can't see as a bad thing AS LONG AS THE REST OF THE ELEMENTS REFLECT A SIMILAR BALANCE.... all caps as to not be misunderstood that having guards wake up would be implemented without much relative change in the other mechanics.

InGroove2
14th May 2009, 18:01
The fundamental argument for unlimited sleep-time is that it provides for richer gameplay mechanics. While a timer would cause interesting effects in the short term, it's far more important to preserve the exploration aspect of the game.



I think we (collectively) should agree that the "realism (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TapOnTheHead)" of black-jacking someone doesn't matter at all in the game. If necessary, you could always lampshade longer times by attributing some magical effect to Garret's weapon, or explaining that he doses the guards with something after they fall down. Whatever.

The question is how to maximize fun for the player.

moving on from all the previous BS, i appreciate your diplomatic approach. I am not sure that having them wake up, a bit dabilitated, would deter you from exploring. I guess i'm thinking of after you've blackjacked everyone, you walk around freely and explore freely. It's always been a little boring to me (not that i would ever call these games boring as a whole) that after awhile you're just running around free, say, for your escape from the level. It would be nice to have more pressure to ghost a mission and be maximally stealthy so as to make sure you can explore without having there be too much awareness of your presence.

And i would have to say that in order for guards to wake up, they'd have to be severely dabilitated, woozy and basically just capable of telling other guards or simply just seeing you can groveling a call for help minimizing the distance his "yells for help" could be heard.
then maybe a second black jack would do him in for good.

Botlas
14th May 2009, 18:07
I'm not taking the piss here, and sorry if it looks like I am, but in reality, you'd simply use items on the victims person to tie them up. These days shoelaces are often used for this kind of thing. In a medieval setting the victims would have all kinds of rope and material in their clothing alone that could be used as a makeshift gag and rope.

If you could automatically tie up any person you blackjacked, why would there need to be a wake up mechanic? You'd just tie everyone up. From a gameplay perspective it'd need to be limited in order to keep the mechanic from being pointless.

A lot of stuff in the Thief games don't make sense. Why does Garrett wear hard soled shoes that tap when he walks on hard surfaces? He should be wearing soft leather soles that don't make noise. Where exactly does Garrett store all that loot during the mission? Why are you limited in the number of potions you can carry? A lot of gameplay mechanics are there just to preserve the gameplay, not because they make sense.

Prince_VLAD
14th May 2009, 18:14
A lot of stuff in the Thief games don't make sense. Why does Garrett wear hard soled shoes that tap when he walks on hard surfaces? He should be wearing soft leather soles that don't make noise. Where exactly does Garrett store all that loot during the mission? Why are you limited in the number of potions you can carry? A lot of gameplay mechanics are there just to preserve the gameplay, not because they make sense.


Good point ! lol



In the three other Thief's, killing had no advantage to knocking out; it was louder, created blood, and lasted the same amount of time (forever) as a KO. I think it would be interesting in the new game if guards could awaken from a blackjack or other knock-out. This would make the game more tense ("Will I have time to get out before he wakes up?") and add some new strategy ("It would be nice to have that guy out indefinitely, but I'm afraid it may be too loud...."). The only problem I see is on missions or difficulties with no killing, it would get kind of frustrating to have guards waking up on you. It would have to last quite some time, like 20-25 minutes real-time.

I don't think it would be a good idea...
In my opinion the notion of time in game it's not something you would keep an eye on.And "reviving' the KO ones would make the game look like a SPAWNING odd thing and if there is something I HATE in game's world is... SPAWNING. Spawning is bad for "business", it betrays the developer lack of imagination, sometimes even worse, its stupidity! Did you hear that EIDOS ??? lol

Stoic
14th May 2009, 18:15
Minutes? No. It would take many many hours for someone to get up from that. And someone else coming up and shaking them probably wouldn't help them wake up any sooner either

Man, you should just stop posting. You have this unbelievable resistance to people's ideas. On top of your resistance, you always provide some odd, unsound idea of your own and expect people to more readily accept yours.

I need to ask you when you became a medical expert on people being woken up from blunt trauma? Please, enlighten me, doctor GmanPro. Face it, you have no idea how long it would take a person to wake up from blunt trauma, you don't know if the knock to the noggin caused internal brain swelling and possibly hemorrhaging due to excessive swelling. For all we know, Garrett may be hitting guards in the head so hard that they will die from internal brain swelling and that is why they could never get up in the other games. Another possibility is that Garret really just love-taps guards on the neck and breaks their spinal cord and paralyzes them from the neck-down. Another possibility is that he blackjacks the guards, they hurt, but they will wake up, and being that all people are different in the real world, some will wake up within minutes, seconds, hours, days, months, or even years. Shoot, a blunt trauma victim who went into a coma came out of his coma after 26 years, so it just goes to show that people's bodies respond differently to various stimuli.

If the developers wanted to make a somewhat realistic game, they could try and make guard's bodies react differently based on some internal structure that the devs know about, but you don't. This could allow some guards to wake up from being blackjacked and some not wake up, and the amount of time it takes to wake up is dependent on something internal that the devs know about, but not necessarily you.

Please stop shooting down everyone's ideas with ignorant comments of your own. You are not the master of the universe who knows everything, you are some guy sitting at his desk in front of his computer with some complex about being right all the time.

Stoic
14th May 2009, 18:20
To add challenge, looking glass started to add more stuff like robots and cameras etc. The guards never woke up in classic Thief games and it felt right. Just adding enemies that cannot be blackjacked is enough of a challenge. And its more fun.

Again, you are completely resistant to innovation. How do you expect a franchise to progress forward if you want everything to remain exactly the same?

Stoic
14th May 2009, 18:23
Thief isn't supposed to be about challenge anyway. Thief is the only game to ever do stealth properly. Tinkering with it is not a good idea.

No guards waking up after blackjack. I have spoken

You will never succeed in life if you don't challenge yourself.

You are the guy who assumes we can't do anything unless it has already been done before.

Sad. So sad.

Terr
14th May 2009, 18:23
Again, you are completely resistant to innovation. How do you expect a franchise to progress forward if you want everything to remain exactly the same?
My GOD! Why didn't I see it before? All new things are good!

"Hey, I've got a cartload of collateralized debt obligations. C'mon, we'll all get rich! It's not like housing prices could fall anyway."

Tumors are when parts of your body fail to have a proper resistance to innovation.

Stoic
14th May 2009, 18:24
I'm very proud of my accomplishment. :D

Ever thought about getting outside every once and a while?

InGroove2
14th May 2009, 18:29
Well, you're just as blind in your own way. He's not saying what you implied at all. Try the game called "Stolen" if you want to see what Thief would be like with waking guards. I bought it when we were researching the idea. It sucked.

would you explain why, please?

Espion
14th May 2009, 18:44
no one has sufficiently closed the book as to why the idea would not work...

...i guess my irritation is that there seems to pretty limited thinking here

Dude, please stop accusing people of not thinking about the idea. It just comes across as though you're upset that only a few people here agree with you. There's plenty of evidence that people HAVE thought about it.

Looking Glass made the first two games over a period of several years. It's incredibly unlikely that they didn't have this conversation and even if they didn't, new Horizon has already pointed out that he and his team have spent a five years discussing it.

Other people have noted similar games that have tried the guards waking up approach and they've pointed out that it makes for an entirely different game.

And to top it off Thief: Deadly Shadows essentially had guards that woke up in the form of the respawning guards that appeared in the city sections. As already mentioned, this was not fun, and it didn't play the same way as the previous games played which annoyed fans.

I'm happy to read your opinion but not if you start telling me I'm not thinking about what you've said just because I disagree.

Botlas, rather than a limited number of times you can tie people up I'd suggest that to balance the mechanic you could have it take time to tie the up, that it makes you more visible and it makes noise as you do it. This way you might think twice about doing it when there are other guards in the area as they may hear/see you or you might take too long and get caught red handed which would look really bad.

Also if people were to wake up, just because they're tied and gagged, it doesn't mean they can't move or make noise. it just means they'd make less noise and they couldn't move very far. We've all seen films where someone is bound and gagged, struggling to get free, and a passerby hears them.

If the game was to have guards that wake up, and if it were possible to tie them, I'd have it so tied up guards could make enough noise that if someone walked close enough to them they'd hear it, be able to free the guard, and raise the alarm.

However as I've already said, I don't think guards should wake up again :)

You're absolutely right that gameplay mechanics don't have to make sense although there is still the suspension of disbelief that designers have to think about. Sometimes you can push these limits, and sometimes you can't. In the end it's always a matter of opinion though.

Direlord
14th May 2009, 18:46
i don't think guards should wake up after a length of time however if another guard finds them i think they should be able to call for help and that person could revive them. In a world of magic and science where monsters roam around we have robots with steam cannons alongside guys with swords and bows I think it's plausible to have someone have a magic type smelling salt to wake someone up that is unconcious.

Stoic
14th May 2009, 18:46
Well, you're just as blind in your own way. He's not saying what you implied at all. Try the game called "Stolen" if you want to see what Thief would be like with waking guards. I bought it when we were researching the idea. It sucked.

What's funny is that I was actually one of the people who was 'for' waking guards.

It was more of a general quote to all of his posts. The guy is completely resistant to anything new, desires no challenge, and basically acts like a grumpy old man who always thinks he is right. He goes around knocking everything every person says as if they are "wrong." The issue is that there are no wrong ideas. I swear, if any of you say that there are wrong ideas, you will lose that argument.

Before I get twelve return posts by angry teenagers who have no normative understanding of the use of all ideas being presented, I will explain myself here. All ideas are good because they solidify the foundations and understandings present in all societies. If someone has what appears to be a bad idea, it brings debate and discussion to solidify another idea as being superior to that one. A bad idea, in that sense, is good because it allows something better to flow from it by example. There are no bad ideas if good things always come from them, such as justifications as to why an idea is bad and another is better than it.

What that other guy does, is just shoot down everybody's ideas without presenting any idea of his own. Just saying "you are wrong, that was stupid, you are stupid, blah blah blah" does not help anyone. Discussion is not furthered by it.

For those of you who are going to say that his stupidity is prompting a response, so his stupidity should be treated as beneficial, and therefore I am wrong, I answer you with this: There is a difference between ideas and conduct. Conduct can be wrong, ideas can't be. What he is doing is crapping on other people with some false sense of superiority for his uber-dorkness, and that is conduct that is wrong. He is not helping anyone.

DarthEnder
14th May 2009, 18:47
I think the only fair way you could do something like a timed KO is by separating a downed guard into two separate states. The first being "unconscious". They're unconscious, you KO'd them and for all intents and purposes, they are dead to the world. But then, after, say, 10 minutes, their state could **** from being "unconscious" to being "asleep". If left on their own, they will continue to lie there and not bother anyone, but if they are found by another guard, they will simply be woken up, or a sufficiently loud noise will also wake them.

So in this fashion, you end up with the best of both options. Where on the one hand, a KO'd guard is not quite as good as a dead guard, but those who like to be patient don't have to worry about their backfield filling up with alerted guards on their way out.


don't be sorry. that's a pretty lame way to play the game as far as i'm concerned, do i need to "experience" killing every dude in the place? if it were really that easy then why wouldn't it be the first choice of all players?? seems like a weird paradox that i don't really care to investigate.Well that's where you and I differ. In that I've played through Thief in countless different ways ranging from going on killing sprees all the way up to ghosting.

MAKE the game so that you can't just kill everyone off as you suggest.Again, it's called Expert difficulty.

In fact, that's how you can tell killing is easier than KOing, because on Normal they let you do it and on expert you can't.


I need to ask you when you became a medical expert on people being woken up from blunt trauma? Please, enlighten me, doctor GmanPro. Face it, you have no idea how long it would take a person to wake up from blunt trauma, you don't know if the knock to the noggin caused internal brain swelling and possibly hemorrhaging due to excessive swelling. For all we know, Garrett may be hitting guards in the head so hard that they will die from internal brain swelling and that is why they could never get up in the other games. Another possibility is that Garret really just love-taps guards on the neck and breaks their spinal cord and paralyzes them from the neck-down. Another possibility is that he blackjacks the guards, they hurt, but they will wake up, and being that all people are different in the real world, some will wake up within minutes, seconds, hours, days, months, or even years. Shoot, a blunt trauma victim who went into a coma came out of his coma after 26 years, so it just goes to show that people's bodies respond differently to various stimuli.So your solution here is to have knocking out a guard cause a dozen different random results to the target instead of just assuming that Garrett, being the master thief that he is, knows how to hit someone to achieve the effect he desires most.

Which is kind of the whole idea of playing Garrett in the first place. You aren't playing yourself, flailing around at random at a person's head with a sap, your playing someone who spent his whole life learning how hard to hit someone, and where. Which is completely realistic because some combat training teaches you to do just that.

Also, learn to use the edit button and stop triple posting.

Terr
14th May 2009, 18:53
I simply see no compelling gameplay case for guards that wake up on their own: At best it simply adds a time-pressure component to maps... Which in turn makes it much more difficult to create an enjoyable non-linear experience within the map.

And again, "in real life it would take..." dosen't matter. It's a game. It should compress boring parts (two days of information gathering and casing the joint) and expands the good ones (fifteen minutes of burglary.) If someone wants to spend five hours exploring every single nook and cranny in a mansion full of sleeping guards, let them.

Althalus
14th May 2009, 18:55
Ok how about this< if someone already mention this idea sorry but there were just too many posts to read through in detail.>

How about they just have guards waking up as an option you can turn off/on? Or maybe just have the highest difficulty have this feature? It would satisfy both points of view, you don't have to play it that way, but you can if you want that extra challenge or realism.

I definitely think however the feature of a guard waking another guard up if the body isn't properly disposed of is a must have! Thief has always wanted people to take the time to hide the bodies and I don't see how this would encourage killing people, if you REALLY think I am wrong on that, fine, if they find a dead body, have extra guards appear and start searching in alert mode, so that after all said and done, you now have 3 guards (in this example two guards spawn) to deal with instead of the one. Of course you would need to have the guards eventually go out of alert mode or that would be a game killer, but in past thiefs guards do eventually settle down.

Also a note to those who didn't like the guards respawning in the city hubs: The whole point of that to my understanding was if they didn't do it, you wouldn't be able to accumulate cash, in other words the only cash you could make would be limited to the missions and one time steals on the streets. Let me explain more on this:

1. The guards reappearing were there to protect the citizens you need to steal cash from in between missions if you need items, if they took that out of the game, they would take out the citizens reappearing as well and therefore no one to loot from in between missions, hence if you run out of arrows or something in between missions and have no money..tough luck. Some may like that, but a lot of people I doubt would.

2. The city hubs were a large part of moving around in Thief3, do you REALLY want to be able to move around without stealthing halfway through the game? I mean several missions even involved the city, you wanted to just walk around out in the open? Where is the challenge in that?

3. I understand that the guards respawning in thief 3 was annoying, but think a little deeper/longer before complaining on here about it, because what if they really didn't respawn at all in the city? Just how boring would it be? Just asking you to think about it.

Thanks!

InGroove2
14th May 2009, 18:57
Dude, please stop accusing people of not thinking about the idea. It just comes across as though you're upset that only a few people here agree with you. There's plenty of evidence that people HAVE thought about it.

Looking Glass made the first two games over a period of several years. It's incredibly unlikely that they didn't have this conversation and even if they didn't, new Horizon has already pointed out that he and his team have spent a five years discussing it.

Other people have noted similar games that have tried the guards waking up approach and they've pointed out that it makes for an entirely different game.


i never said people aren't thinking about it. i said that the thinking seems limited. it's a pretty meaningful distinction. i'm not crying because everyone isn't on my side... a few (i stress 'few') seem to be. but i'm not taking a side, i just would hope the discussion would go further than it has. it SEEMS to me that once a problem with the idea is brought up, the problem becomes a reason to negate the idea, as oppose to finding ways to deal with that "problem" to maybe make it NOT a problem... i.e. constructive discussion... as oppose to an argument.

again, i don't think anyone has NOT THOUGHT about it, or blatantly refuses to think about it.. but i think that for a "discussion" board, this "idea" has see very little and limited exploration.... that is, for example, the phrase "what if..." has RARELY been used.

i don't deny that it COULD promote murder. or that it MIGHT make for a different kind of experience on its own. or that it COULD be a bad idea.

Direlord
14th May 2009, 19:02
i don't think guards should wake up after a length of time however if another guard finds them i think they should be able to call for help and that person could revive them. In a world of magic and science where monsters roam around we have robots with steam cannons alongside guys with swords and bows I think it's plausible to have someone have a magic type smelling salt to wake someone up that is unconcious.

kamilavalamp
14th May 2009, 19:16
I dont understand why the makers always want to change things
the series should be left the way that most of the fans have always liked it you shouldn't change any game mechanics at all although you could add new ones if most of the fans like them

kamilavalamp
14th May 2009, 19:23
dont attack the devs
they are asking our opinion on what they should do so they can make a better more liked game
dont attack them for it when they post a question about something





it's pretty tough to understand you, but i'm interpreting this to mean that there were more factors determining whether or not guards waking up would've been a good idea beyond just the ability to make the game that way. Well, no s***, sherlock. That's what i just said. One factor is that it would have totally ruined the game's mechanics. No doubt, that's why looking glass didn't do it, even though they could have.


Bs. Nobody with minimal proficiency in the english language would ever interpret "today's games" to mean "an industry that has already had 3 games where the guards don't wake up in thief and other stealth games".


The idea is pansy? Do you even know what that word means? You seem to be a bit fuzzy on "speculation" too.


Um, no, you threw an idea out there for consideration, and everybody else considered it, and explained why it wouldn't work from a game mechanics perspective. So far, you haven't explained how it could possibly work, or given any evidence to the contrary. You just keep saying that it could somehow, and insisting that it is in some way "innovative".

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
14th May 2009, 19:46
Interesting discussion before it got all whiny and hateful. My first reaction to the question of this thread is that no, hell no. Guards shouldn't be able to just wake up from a blackjack hit. And while I'm at it I'd like to say that I hope there are NO time based missions.

Then I read the idea of other guards finding an unconscious guard and waking him up. This is the idea that I find interesting. I've been going back and forth in my mind over this.

"It's pointless because the blackjacked guard would be useless"
"It's interesting because it would be one more thing to think about, one more consequence for being careless"
"It would be ridiculous to make the awakened guard any good"

There's been many times when I haphazardly tossed a body into a nearby dark corner and would later get caught and chased. During this chase I may inadvertently lead my pursuers to find their unconscious friends. It would be rather exciting if, in those scenarios, after I get away, I would come back to find all the unconscious guards awoken by my pursuers after they gave up looking for me. It doesn't have to make sense, hardly anything in the game does. This idea sounds fun.

NewHorizon, I understand what your saying and in the end any sort of awakening may not add much significance to gameplay. It may in fact seem clumsy or messy. However, I can't get over thinking that the idea above just sounds so fun. In the end I think it just sounds appealing because it will MAKE ME think twice about what I do with the guard. This itself can be fixed anyway by just making the guards panic more and really provide a reaction to finding an unconscious guard.

I guess in the end this is how I feel;

If we keep guards that go back to "oh well nothing going on" mode even after something obviously went wrong, then I want them to be able to wake knocked out guards up.

If we can have the guard that discovers a body run around and put the whole place on alert for the rest of the mission then I will prefer that and waking guards sounds pointless to me again. That alone will be all the reason you need to really hide that body as you don't want to spend the rest of the mission sneaking around already suspicious guards. Yes that is what I really want.

InGroove2
14th May 2009, 20:07
Uhm. Nobody was attacking the Dev's. This thread was not posted by a Dev nore was he responding to a developer. As far as I know, there are no Dev's in this thread. Relax.

uh, i'm a dev, dude.................................




i know.. you were scared for a second... i could feel it!

Hypevosa
14th May 2009, 20:09
In all honesty, yes, guards should wake up, the question is - how long should they really be out? You are wrong about one thing, killing did have an advantage... you could do it from a mile away if you were good with the bow. However, as soon as gas arrows came in, that was removed from the picture...

When you knock someone unconscious, you tend to do enough damage to keep them out for at least half an hour to a full hour. I think on knocking someone out a random number generator should kick in and determine exactly how long it is, from 30 minutes to 60. However, to alleviate, the "annoyingness" this would cause in game play, simply give the player other options as to how to dispose of this person. a few examples include:

1. Place the body in a room and lock said room. After awakening the guard should try to escape said room, if it is a locked wooden door, they could try to force it open, if it is metal, they can bang and bang to their hearts content, attracting all the attention. Maybe servants could attract to the door and laugh at the hapless guard. No one has the key but you if you were thorough enough.

2. Place the body in a room, but leave the door open. The guard awakens, unaware of what has happened, figures he should get to his rounds, takes 2 steps to the door and *hisssssss* a gas mine at his feet assures he won't wake up for another hour or so.

3. Place body in room, proceed to break legs. Guard awakens a while later and, damnit he can't get up now. Probably makes alota bloody noise but he can't do anything but moan at you if he sees you now.

Subsequent knockouts should keep the guard out for longer, 1-2 hours (god you should be done by then, really!) and a 3rd knockout keeping them out permanently. Really? shouldn't take that long to do a level...

Gas should probably automatically keep someone out for 1 hour, and using gas on them again while they're unconscious should suffocate them.

Maybe a poison could be introduced that induces a knockout for an entire level. It could have interesting implications, such as framing a guard captain as having slept with a lords wife by putting him on her bed. ;D I was only disappointed because they never applied knocking someone out as well as they could have. I would always do stuff like putting multiple guards in the same bed, just to think of how embarrassed they'd be when they woke up.

Knocking someone out, and placing some beer bottles next to them could also make someone put it off as if the idiot had been drinking too much:

*Guard comes over and sees 2 beer bottles right next to his unconscious, fellow guard* "Not again... god damned drunk, come on" *he pulls the unconscious guard up and walks him to the barracks, slowly since he's having to drag his feet. As they walk away Garrett adeptly sneaks behind, waiting for the other guard to open the barracks, succinctly giving the helpful guard the same treatment of blackjack and moving into the complex.

Botlas
14th May 2009, 20:32
However as I've already said, I don't think guards should wake up again :)


I actually agree with you, I don't think they should wake up either. The point really is that if they allowed tying up guards, there has to be some kind of balance to prevent you from just tying everyone up. Your ideas would work, I was just throwing out the limited binds idea as an example.

For the sake of discussion, one example of a game with waking guards that worked was Metal Gear Portable Ops. If you hit someone with the tranquilizer, a passing guard could wake them up. I believe that if you left them lying there long enough, they'd wake up on their own, but you were generally able to finish missions pretty quickly so it never was an issue. If they did wake up, they'd sound the alarm and you'd have to run and hide until the alert phase ended.

It's all a matter of how they balance it out in the end.

Espion
14th May 2009, 20:34
:lmao: No no. We've been working on our total conversion mod for 5 years...not discussing matters like that, we would never finish if we didn't come to some early decisions.

Heh, my mistake. I must've misread you earlier on, though the point remains. Your team discussed the idea and made a decision based on that discussion. Therefore you're not dismissing the idea of waking guards without having thought about it.

DocTaffer
14th May 2009, 20:36
First of all, no, guards should not wake up after getting blackjacked. It would be seriously annoying. Alternatively, this could be an option in the menu for hardcore gamers.

Second of all, I'm a doctor. I work in the accidents and emergencies department of my hospital and I get a lot of patients with concussions (we call them commotio cerebri). If you were to get hit on the back of the head suddenly with a blackjack, you're not going to be waking up from that for a while. You could be out for 5, 10, 30 minutes or longer. When you do wake up, you will not remember what happened. You will also be so dizzy and nauseous that you will not be getting up from a lying position for a couple of hours to a couple of days. If realism is what you're looking for, don't use your favourite action film. People, no matter how tough they are, do not recover from being hit over the back of the head in the amount of time it would take a thief to complete his mission.

Since Thief 1, guards have not woken up after being knocked unconscious. I don't know why you would want to change it now. Just make the graphics, sound effects, music, gameplay, and storyline awesome. That's what we hardcore Thief fans want. I think that guards waking up would also be a disaster for newcomers to the series, if one of Eidos' goals is to get new people interested in Thief.

Espion
14th May 2009, 21:00
For the sake of discussion, one example of a game with waking guards that worked was Metal Gear Portable Ops.

Hmmm, it's been a while since I played a Metal Gear. The main differences I'd note are that the levels are considerably more linear than those in Thief, though I know they're not entirely linear, and that the game is much more action based.

As I recall, when you knocked out or killed guards, they'd either respawn or are woken up by respawning guards. The reason being is that the main focus of MG was the shootouts and whilst sneaking was a part of it, it was much shorter term sneaking that lead to action based sequences. For that reason it needs a constant supply of guards.

I think we'd all agree that Thief is a much slower paced game which is more about exploration and problem solving that straight up action. It's a very different mood.

Garrett21
14th May 2009, 21:56
In Splinter Cell 2 Pandora Tomorrow they woke Ko'd guards the guards would then be on like active alert i dont think they ever returned to a passive state something should be implemented to encourage players to clean up after themselves.

Terr
14th May 2009, 22:18
I think the only fair way you could do something like a timed KO is by separating a downed guard into two separate states. The first being "unconscious". They're unconscious, you KO'd them and for all intents and purposes, they are dead to the world. But then, after, say, 10 minutes, their state could **** from being "unconscious" to being "asleep". If left on their own, they will continue to lie there and not bother anyone, but if they are found by another guard, they will simply be woken up, or a sufficiently loud noise will also wake them.

This I would like to see. Just because you knocked the last guard out doesn't mean you can safely jump around and smash vases.

If a active guard finds an "unconscious" guard, the victim cannot be woken up (yet) but the patroller has a higher alert level imparted to him.The AI makes a note to return later and check in on the unconscious guard.
When an active guard finds a "sleeping" guard, he wakes him up and they each get a moderate alert level increase.

HellKittyDan
15th May 2009, 09:34
Yes, all three games provided areas to hide unconscious bodies that would never wake up...that has very little to do with what I'm talking about. A standard darkened area isn't going to cut it if guards wake up.

Geez, did you even read the whole of my last post, or the rest of my posts? This is only a problem if guards wake up on their own after a set time, which I think is a bad idea. Blackjacked guards should stay unconscious unless discovered by fellow guards. Which means, as I've argued all along, if the player manages to hide the body from view, as they can in the rest of the games in the series, they'll never wake.


You're not going to be waking up any time soon after being whacked in the head with a sack of lead.

Irrelevant. A professional thief isn't going to wear shoes that force them to move very slowly on hard surfaces. The point of such features is to offer the player a challenge.

***

Anyway, as for MGS, guards that woke after a set time only worked because locations in that series are divided into small, separate areas, and the unconscious guard is only a problem while you remain in that particular area. This wouldn't work in a game like Thief where missions which takes place in one large area, and guards that wake up on there own become an annoyance.


This I would like to see. Just because you knocked the last guard out doesn't mean you can safely jump around and smash vases.

If a active guard finds an "unconscious" guard, the victim cannot be woken up (yet) but the patroller has a higher alert level imparted to him.The AI makes a note to return later and check in on the unconscious guard.
When an active guard finds a "sleeping" guard, he wakes him up and they each get a moderate alert level increase.


This is an excellent idea. :thumb:

1N54N3
15th May 2009, 10:24
Only if you can perform a "silent kill" once they are knocked out imo. For instance, stuffing a rag in their mouth and then slitting their throat or something.... (graphic I know, sorry). I do like your idea though. I always thought they should wake up too.

Alex50
15th May 2009, 12:10
No, it is bad idea. It is easier to kill the guard by an arrow and to forget about him, than to creep for a back and having deafened, to think when he will rise. In mission where 1-2 guards - as in game "Stolen", it is possible.
5 % of chance too should not be. The player wanders on mission deafening the guards, transferring the deafened bodies in a dark room and here one of the deafened guards rises, lifts other deafened guards. And the room is complete the furious guards. All job of the player flies to a hell. The statistics of a level is spoiled, the mood of the player is spoiled.
For complication of game it is possible to add restriction on the deafened guards. As in T2 - the level with a police site, where is necessary to throw the prooves.

Jayy
15th May 2009, 15:07
The problem I found in the city sections of Thief 3 was that another guard would spawn immediately in the vicinity if you blackjacked one. Having a guard come to some time after being knocked out would be better than that. I think in missions it might be too much of a pain, and while the idea of it taking 20 minutes or so for them to come to might seem reasonable at first glance, the essence of stealth is patience, so if you are careful in watching guards' behaviour and sneaking by them, 20 minutes might not be as long a time as it sounds.:eek:

Nate
15th May 2009, 16:10
Well, I am fine with the standard 'down for the count' type knockouts.

That said, I would find Guards waking up after 20 minutes an interesting challenge.

Of course, what happens if the player simply dumps them down a chute so they can't get out? Can they still raise an alarm by crying out to other guards?

Botlas
15th May 2009, 21:23
Hmmm, it's been a while since I played a Metal Gear. The main differences I'd note are that the levels are considerably more linear than those in Thief, though I know they're not entirely linear, and that the game is much more action based.

As I recall, when you knocked out or killed guards, they'd either respawn or are woken up by respawning guards. The reason being is that the main focus of MG was the shootouts and whilst sneaking was a part of it, it was much shorter term sneaking that lead to action based sequences. For that reason it needs a constant supply of guards.

I think we'd all agree that Thief is a much slower paced game which is more about exploration and problem solving that straight up action. It's a very different mood.

Also @New Horizon who made essentially the same point.

MGS does give you more options in terms of shooting, but you can't dismiss the stealth elements because of that. Other than the unavoidable boss battles and scripted action sequences, you can fully stealth through entire levels without killing anyone. There are videos on Youtube of people completing all of MGS4 without ever activating an alert phase, e.g., never being spotted by an enemy during stealth portions.

The levels in MGS are indeed smaller than those in Thief, but I don't think that really matters. Once you activate an alert phase, the guards will eventually give up. So if a knocked out guard wakes up and sounds the alarm, you'd just have to hide out until that's done. It's really just a matter of balancing how long it takes for the guy to wake up and what is annoying. As long as you're given enough time to move on so that you're not around when the guard wakes up, it doesn't really harm the exploration aspect of Thief.

Again, I'm not advocating for guards waking up, or to turn Thief into MGS. But MGS has a good stealth system, and there's no reason to ignore it when discussing stealth mechanics.

DarthEnder
15th May 2009, 22:34
Except that MGS has one of the worst stealth systems in video games.

Botlas
15th May 2009, 23:34
Except that MGS has one of the worst stealth systems in video games.

So what's wrong with it?

Granted, the stealth system changes from game to game in the MGS series. But in MGS4 and the introduction of Octocamo, it's actually fairly similar to the stealth system in Thief. But instead of looking for shadows, you look for objects to lean next to or grass/objects to crawl into. The stealth ring is a great way to allow you to keep track of your surroundings, in addition to the awesome use of surround sound. Doing stealth runs in MGS4 requires the same kind of patience and planning that Thief has, although your goal is different.

I don't actually remember enough of the earlier MGS games except Portable Ops to compare. But Portable Ops had a decent system as well. There's no Octocamo so you relied more on watching patrols and running by behind them, or using items like the box to sneak in front of them. But it still required patience and planning to get past enemies.

DarthEnder
16th May 2009, 01:13
I'm mainly talking about MGS1. Where stealth is essentially nonexistant, and entirely based on simply staying out of an enemies cone of vision. It's been said before, but you can play MGS1 almost entirely by just looking at the radar.

MGS4's is definitely the best stealth in the series, but, like you said, it's because of octocamo, which basically makes Snake into the Predator. It's pretty much cheating. As long as you lie down and don't move, your almost invisible. Even if it's in the middle of a bright sunlit street.

And all of the MGS games suffer from the ridiculous knockout system, where you can pump a guard with half a dozen tranquilizer rounds, and they'll get up as soon as another guard kicks them, or if you just leave them lying there for about a minute and a half. In fact, MGS is pretty much the worst case scenario for the very mechanic being suggested in this thread.

Nate
16th May 2009, 02:20
Ugggghhhh, I can't believe Metal Gear Solid is still be mentioned on this forum!

LightWarriorK
16th May 2009, 04:35
Getting OFF the MGS conversation and back to THIEF...

I was originally in favor of guards waking up when I first saw the thread title. I thought to myself, "Hey, that would be a pretty neat gameplay mechanic."

However, after reading through the thread, I've changed my mind. I think that in level enemies should stay down.

Of course, I think that city guards should wake up after a while or be replaced (if they were killed), but that seems to be another topic and will depend mostly on how "open-ended" the game is.


I think that, instead, what I'd like to see is a fourth level of alertness for the enemies. Right now (as in, T1,2,&3) there's Idle (post and patrol), Alert, and Attack, correct? In the absence of comepletely new AI levels, I'd like to see the Alert level split.

GmanPro said back on page 2 that in T1&2 you could blackjack in Idle and Alert, but in T3 you could only blackjack in Idle. I actually thought that it made sense that you couldn't knock someone out in Alert mode, so I didn't mind it that much, but I do see the problems people have with it.

If it were me programing the AI, I would have Idle, Curious, Alert, and Attack as the levels. The split in the Alert level to create the Curious level would mean that if a guard hears a noise, he would investigate. It wouldn't mean he's looking for an intruder, and he's not suspicious of anything yet, but he may leave his post or deviate from his patrol route. I would allow blackjacking in the Curious level, but not the Alert level. That, IMHO, would level things out.

Of course, it is true that skull thickness isn't something that can be exercised, and it is true that even a fully alert and searching guard could be blackjacked. But I'm just thinking that the AI in Thief 4 would be improved to the point where the Alert level would be a LOT harder to sneak up on and even a split-second reaction from the guard would protect him from a knockout.

I think that's all I have to say on that topic.

BTW, hi, everyone. I've been lurking for a week or so now and joined last night. I've played all the Thief games as soon as they were released, and I'm very interested to see how this one goes.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
17th May 2009, 10:32
No matter what changes may be implemented to the blackjack (if any), I am another player who is against 'respawning'. This is the most annoying thing for me, in any game.:(

ToMegaTherion
17th May 2009, 10:51
The problem with this question is that, in answering, we are assuming certain things that were true in the old games but might not be in the new ones. I think we can't really work out the correct answer until we know the following:

- Whether there is going to be a massive AI improvement over the original games. I hope there is, and it involves alerted guards sending their alertness around the level. A mere brief sound or sighting shouldn't cause a cascade, but finding an unconscious body should. Hopefully upon finding a body, a guard will alert as many people as he can, while not wholly abandoning his patrol. In such circumstances it might be quite cool if he could wake up an unconscious guard and say "I'll stay at my post, you alert the others".

- How the game responds to killing. I hope that it responds to killing in a much more subtle way than allowing you to kill anyone or not kill anyone. Killing people should have the potential to come back to haunt you later. In such circumstances, the argument that KOs are inferior to kills starts to disappear, and so recovering from unconsciousness would still be OK. Even if less subtle, the objectives could restrict kills to a certain number, where again KOs become attractive even if they're weaker in some way.

Espion
17th May 2009, 10:57
I'm trying to remember but it's difficult without verifying it (I still can't get Thief working on my Vista rig :() but I could swear I was knocking guards out on attack mode before.

I think it may've been Thief 2 but it was one of the city street levels. I found that I could step out of a shadow to attract a guard to chase after me. I'd then run ahead of him, making sure he can still see/hear me, until I get to a well shadowed area. As soon as he followed me into the shadow, I'd double back, rush round behind him, blackjack him from directly behind and knock him out.

Maybe he'd entered alert mode, I can't be certain at this point but, to be honest, I think it should be possible to knock them down if you get into the right position regardless of what behaviour state they're in. It should just be very difficult to get into that position as they'll be aware of you and your position and therefore they'd keep moving to stop you from getting that chance.

Essentially, I don't see why a hit to the correct point wouldn't knock someone out if they're aware of me... Unless they're Shaolin Monks I guess... What do you think? Once Benny sobers up he goes and meditates for a few hours before practicing his Wu-Shu? If he sobers up :scratch:

Platinumoxicity
17th May 2009, 11:02
Yeah, it's possible to knock them out while they are fighting you. You just need to stand in darkness and hit them in the back, or by leaning forward, hit them in the face. :)

ToMegaTherion
17th May 2009, 11:42
From a gameplay point of view, it doesn't seem unreasonable to prevent blackjacking of guards who are too alert.

Espion
17th May 2009, 12:00
From a gameplay point of view, it doesn't seem unreasonable to prevent blackjacking of guards who are too alert.

I agree as it would encourage people to play the game more stealthily, which is the whole point.

However making something extremely difficult would largely do the same. It would just also mean there is a possibility, even if it's incredibly slight, that if you get lucky you could knock them down.

Ultimately, I don't mind if it's possible or not to knock someone out when they're in attack mode. It'd be nice to have the option to do so but if not I can live with that. As it turns out it would be gimping the original Thief 1&2 system but not massively so like they did with Thief 3. That is what I would have an issue with; If the blackjack is as useless as it was in Thief 3.

So long as I have the ability to knock the guard out if he can't see me I'll be happy.

NewUser2
17th May 2009, 12:04
If you get knocked out in real life your out for about 5 seconds to a few minutes.

It would ruin the use of blackjack in the game. I think they should keep it as good as it was in the other games.

Espion
17th May 2009, 12:40
If you get knocked out in real life your out for about 5 seconds to a few minutes.

Surely that depends on the type of concussion?

Yaphy
17th May 2009, 13:47
(excuse my poor english)
I would like if the guards could wake up. But only if another guard saw him. If the guard that was blackjacked saw Garret before he was blackjacked, he will call the alarm. But if Garret were unseen, the Guard will just think I fell asleep at the very long night shift. Example:

Guard #1 gets blackjacked without notice Garret...
Guard #2 walks past the blackjacked Guard #1...
Guard #2:What the...sleeping at guard are we?
Guard #2 wakes Guard #1 up.
Guard #1 stands slowly up, rubbing his head.
Guard #1:Yeah...musta fell asleep *grumble*grumble*
Guard #2: Well, dont let it happen again.
Guard #1: *cought* I will be alert.

Guard #1 and Guard #2 will just continue their watch as normal.
A good thing would be if the patrol route of the guards are made like the guards only meet at one point. That will make it fun and you can try to blackjack a guard at a point that he doesnt get spotted. Then he doesnt wake up. If you really need to blackjack a Guard at the spot where the other guard might notice him, do it when the guard is at the other part of his route. Then fastly pull the body to another spot.

This might seem complicated, but i think it will come quite natural after all. This is almost what i did when i played previouse Thief games. ;)

Subjective Effect
17th May 2009, 13:52
If you get knocked out in real life your out for about 5 seconds to a few minutes.

Not with a blackjack or sap you wouldn't.

Haven't you bothered to read the rest of the thread?

DarthEnder
17th May 2009, 15:19
Obviously not. There's too many people in this tread who are obviously convinced that knockout durations they see in other video games are the same as real-life, without bothering to look up the subject.

ToMegaTherion
17th May 2009, 15:28
I imagine nobody in real life has ever been blackjacked by someone carrying 150 arrows, a bow, 20 bombs, 5 mines, a sword, and several expensive dinner services, so realism has yet to be tested!

Terr
17th May 2009, 17:08
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TapOnTheHead

Smooogy
17th May 2009, 17:19
Realistically... No, Garrett could never bop guards on the head with a blackjack and have most of them get knocked out without dying, not to mention the fact that most guards are even wearing iron helmets! Those helmets must be made out of some tin foil if they don't protect the user from a bludgen.

A blow to the head can kill someone easily and I would assume Garrett plunks em pretty hard, but from a gameplay standpoint, there has always been a blackjack :/ Perhaps Garrett could use chemicals?

ToMegaTherion
17th May 2009, 17:54
Terr, thank you for posting that, I envisage many happy hours reading that site.

Terr
17th May 2009, 18:09
Terr, thank you for posting that, I envisage many happy hours reading that site.

It's like wikipedia but full of pop-culture references and without any pages with hard math equations on them. Beware variations on this problem (http://xkcd.com/214/).

Espion
17th May 2009, 18:11
Terr, thank you for posting that, I envisage many happy hours reading that site.

My friend pointed me towards it a week back. I warn you now, you will lose many hours to it :D

MasterTaffer
17th May 2009, 18:33
Note: I think guards waking up is a possible mechanic and I'm going to use other game series as examples. THIS DOES NOT MEAN I WANT THIEF TO BE LIKE THOSE GAMES, so don't jump down my taffing throat when I use them as examples.

Blackjack- Inducing blunt force trauma on a guard should knock them out for the duration of the level. However, if a patrolling guard finds an unconcious guard's body, the guard should be able to wake him up. I've seen this done in Splinter Cell and it doesn't kill the gameplay in the least, and actually stresses the importance of hiding knocked out guard's bodies properly.

Gas- In Hitman 2, knocked out people would eventually wake up after you give them a wiff of chloroform. This seems plausable with gas arrows, bombs and mines. The gas might knock them out for maybe ten minutes, giving you time to move their body to a different location. Upon awakening, the guard could run across the level area alerting others to a possible intruder. To prevent this, you might lock him in a room or closet so he can't get out. While locked in, he might bang on the door and shout his lungs out trying to get attention.

ZylonBane
17th May 2009, 18:41
I cannot believe this idiotic question has inspired seven pages of responses.

Smooogy
17th May 2009, 19:00
It's not an idiotic question. If we're talking about the ultimate stealth game, some level of reality must come into play. Knocking people out and every single one of them not dying from the trauma, and none of them ever waking up, is unrealistic... Perhaps we'd like to suggest improvements.

MasterTaffer
17th May 2009, 19:06
I cannot believe this idiotic question has inspired seven pages of responses.

There are no idiotic questions. You didn't have to participate in the conversation if you don't like the topic. Coming in here and calling the thread idiotic is not constructive and, quite frankly, just juvenile.

ToMegaTherion
17th May 2009, 21:29
Don't rise to the ZylonBane bait, guys. Nothing good ever comes of it.

Smooogy
17th May 2009, 23:25
Don't rise to the ZylonBane bait, guys. Nothing good ever comes of it.

;) Yup

ZylonBane
18th May 2009, 00:09
It's not an idiotic question. If we're talking about the ultimate stealth game, some level of reality must come into play. Knocking people out and every single one of them not dying from the trauma, and none of them ever waking up, is unrealistic...
"Some" level of reality is not the same as an annoying level of reality.

Look, you moonbats, this is really, really simple: The reason guards can't wake up in Thief is because Thief lets the player move bodies. It's virtually impossible to code a system that could intelligently handle an AI suddenly coming back to life when, say, tossed under a table. Or underneath a pile of other bodies. Or at the bottom of a pit.

And even if the game could handle this impossible challenge, players would respond to this nuisance by just knocking guards out and THEN killing them. The only fix for this is annoying arbitrary "Don't kill any guards!" rules that restrict the player's latitude for roleplaying (which you bloody well should know is a big part of the appeal of Thief).

So, re-awakening guards is dumb and it isn't going to happen.

TazmanianD
18th May 2009, 02:09
So, re-awakening guards is dumb and it isn't going to happen.
If only dumb was a sufficient reason for a developer not to implement a particular feature. Just because you and the rest of us may think its dumb doesn't mean it won't happen (can you say loot glint and atomic glowing doors?).

MasterTaffer
18th May 2009, 02:28
Look, you moonbats...

As far as I'm concerned, your condescending attitude negates the rest of your post and makes you irrelevant. You can make your point and be constructive without acting like an arrogant prick.

ZylonBane
18th May 2009, 03:00
You can make your point and be constructive without acting like an arrogant prick.
Yeah, picking "Master Taffer" as your username isn't arrogant AT ALL.

Compensating much?

MasterTaffer
18th May 2009, 03:13
Yeah, picking "Master Taffer" as your username isn't arrogant AT ALL.

Compensating much?

Aw, isn't that cute. He thinks he's relevant.

*Ignore button*

Alright, back to constructive conversations.

MasterTaffer
18th May 2009, 03:17
Yet, as is almost always the case, Zylon nails the issue right on the head. Deeming his tone condescending or not, it does not make his points irrelevant. They were many of the technical issues we discussed during our development of Dark Mod. Unless the developers of T4 spend an undue amount of time developing a system that can deal with unconscious bodies waking up in ....any place imaginable...when they should be working on core features, it's unlikely to happen.

I can agree with that sentiment, but I'm not going to give time of day to someone who acts as asinine as he does.

Technical issues are always a limiting factor in games, but finding a way past the technical limitations is what pushes the industry forward. Just because an idea brings technical problems does not mean it's a bad idea or shouldn't be attempted to be implimented.

Mr McGee
18th May 2009, 03:20
Eek! A troll! Someone shoo it away!

Nate
18th May 2009, 03:28
I could go for people remaining knocked out for the duration of the mission UNLESS a guard/worker/civilian finds them and wakes them up. I don't mind taking the extra few minutes to properly hide an unconscious body...I usually do it anyway when I bother to knock out people.

I think NPCs waking up on their own wouldn't work well...simply because we would be dumping them in places they can't get out of = it doesn't matter if they wake up or not.

All that said, it might just be easier to let knocked out people sleep through the 1/2-1 hour a mission usually lasts anyway.

Nate
18th May 2009, 03:30
I could go for people remaining knocked out for the duration of the mission UNLESS a guard/worker/civilian finds them and wakes them up. I don't mind taking the extra few minutes to properly hide an unconscious body...I usually do it anyway when I bother to knock out people.

I think NPCs waking up on their own wouldn't work well...simply because we would be dumping them in places they can't get out of = it doesn't matter if they wake up or not.

Still, I would be lying if I said that introducing a 'time factor' for knocked out people waking up and sounding the alarm doesn't intrigue me.

All that said, it might just be easier to let knocked out people sleep through the 1/2-1 hour a mission usually lasts anyway.

Terr
18th May 2009, 05:50
Look, you moonbats, this is really, really simple
I'm detecting weird political tones here.


It's virtually impossible to code a system that could intelligently handle an AI suddenly coming back to life when, say, tossed under a table. Or underneath a pile of other bodies. Or at the bottom of a pit.

You can certainly make the argument that it's not worth implementing, or that it would be too difficult to add to a given engine... But several game engines do handle transitioning rag-doll entities back to NPCs or players, and it is in fact a big feature point in the upcoming (if troubled) Ghostbusters franchise game. And that's not even getting into the potential ways of side-stepping the problem entirely, like using a nav-graph to determine places which are "open enough" to drop a guard and have them come back without clipping through walls etc.

So basically you raise an important technical consideration... but you are reaching a bit too far with your blanket dismissal of a "guards that wake up" system as unfeasible.
_____________

Perhaps next time, you can lead off with "It's technically difficult because..." instead of "This thread is stupid". It's a lot more constructive. Less troll-smell to it too.

Smooogy
18th May 2009, 09:20
Zylon Bane is the ruddest person I've ever seen on a forum. Hat's off to that wonderful isolated person!

It helps your arguments to flavor them with a bit of humility and love of your fellow gamer. I'm sure we all have something we'd love to just wail about, but we can disagree without being disagreeable. Hey! That was an Obama quote! XD

StalinsGhost
18th May 2009, 10:56
I'd say a good way of doing it is making the player have to tie up/gag knocked out victims as well. If they're found by an NPC, they can be untied, woken up, and the rest of the location put on high alert. It would force the player to find adequate hiding places for their victims away from well troden patrols and deal with NPCs waking up - it's not even that drammatic a departure from the previous games, and in many ways you could argue that the process is abstracted in the previous games (besides waking guards up by others.)

InGroove2
18th May 2009, 15:04
Worst possible example there buddy since Nolan took Batman closer to it's roots than any of the films to date.


so... did you MISS the innovative part of it? did you SEE it? cause as far as i could tell, TDK took tim burtons movie and broke open every possibility and showed you what would happen in a world more resembling our own... not "realism" but a fantastic superhero battle in a a world resembling our own. it expanded into a territory that was in keeping with the meaning of the main character. it took the simulation a step further.

which is simply what i'm advocating with waking guards (maybe). that the simulation is taken a step further, in a way that doesn't betray the roots of the game. I just seems to me that if they had some guards who could not be knocked out, and guards who would alert others, and towns people who would alert people, seems like a guard waking up and saying "uh, something hit me" or whatever... seems like that would be in line with all of that.

I do not think they should awake and patrol again. i do not think they should be a hazard to you as they awake... but i do think it makes sense and would be cool if the fact that they were not "killed" come into play somehow.

ZylonBane
18th May 2009, 15:37
Eek! A troll! Someone shoo it away!
You really shouldn't use words that you don't know what they mean, kid.

Espion
18th May 2009, 16:05
so... did you MISS the innovative part of it? did you SEE it? cause as far as i could tell, TDK took tim burtons movie and broke open every possibility and showed you what would happen in a world more resembling our own... not "realism" but a fantastic superhero battle in a a world resembling our own. it expanded into a territory that was in keeping with the meaning of the main character. it took the simulation a step further.

I thought we stopped talking about Batman ages ago... Bit out of the blue :hmm:

Re: Batman, I later clarified with this:


As for Batman, my point was that the spirit, the general style, and the main motives were closer to the roots. I know a lot of people didn't like the Tumbler but even that was a fairly accurate representation in its own way; Bruce Wayne using his vast fortune and resources to create an armoured vehicle. Yeah, it didn't have bat wings on the tail or flashing logos on the hubcaps but it still managed to fulfil the concept of the batmobile and stay within the more down-to-earth style that Nolan was going for. The same can be said for the Joker.

I'm not sure what I missed since, apart from the claims that I missed something, we seem to be saying the same thing... Though technically I said it first :rasp:

If the "innovation" I was supposed to have missed is someone making a film of the comic without making it over the top and laughably bad (the Schumacher films) whilst staying true to the popular roots of the story, then I guess you got me.


which is simply what i'm advocating with waking guards (maybe).

I like the "maybe." Nice disclaimer.


I do not think they should awake and patrol again. i do not think they should be a hazard to you as they awake... but i do think it makes sense and would be cool if the fact that they were not "killed" come into play somehow.

In the very same post that you quoted the Batman bit from, I said this:


If it becomes possible for another guard to wake his downed colleague, then at most I imagine the victim would sit there, very drowsy, and unable to do much more than try to yell if he sees the player again.

Once again we seem to be agreeing.

In fact the only point we seem to be disagreeing on is whether or not it should happen... Well, that and the definition of innovation in regards to Batman.

I simply don't see the point in having it happen. Guard B will still run off and alert other people regardless of whether he can wake Guard A up or not, and if Guard A woke up he wouldn't be able to move, attack you or make any noise soon enough to alert other people (like I'd let him see me, even if he is delirious :rasp:) The result would be the same either way, therefore I don't see the point in time and resources being spent on it when there are other things that need doing.

Realism, or pseudo realism isn't always best in my opinion.

Smooogy
18th May 2009, 17:17
All of this conversation dances around the issue of whether Garrett is a murderer or not. Conan the barbarian was a thief, lol. He had to kill many in his way. Understandably, Garrett's stealthy prowess = > Conan's muscles, but at some point he wouldn't be able to completely knock a guard out without well, murdering them to finish the job.

I would imagine if you botched a surprise blackjack whack on someone, they would either fight you to the death, or if you ran and disappeared, they would go and tell every single guard in the entire castle to watch out for a thief/assassin. I like the dumb guards in thief, but people aren't dumb enough to forget about an attack made on them after they can't find you in 10 minutes. That's how all the thief games have played up to this point. Interesting debate.

DarthEnder
18th May 2009, 17:26
The problem is that both sides of the argument for and against are arguing that their method is realistic.

The side for guards waking up is arguing that it's unrealistic for a guard to not wake up during the mission and be able to go back to work.

The side against guards waking up is arguing that, not only is it unrealistic for them to wake up, but realism dictates that some of them won't even survive being blackjack.

The fact is both are technically possible results for blackjacking someone, but someone waking up early is far less likely than someone getting killed accidentally.

So the only truly realistic method to do it would be to have the result of a blackjacking be random, and that makes for terrible gameplay.


So my belief is that it should simply be assumed that, like he is with everything else(lockpicking, sneaking, archery, pickpocket) Garrett is a master at what he does, including blackjacking people, and is able to consistently put his target down for the night.

ZylonBane
18th May 2009, 18:12
NH, don't you know that Master Taffer runs Barter Town?

Botlas
18th May 2009, 18:27
I'm mainly talking about MGS1. Where stealth is essentially nonexistant, and entirely based on simply staying out of an enemies cone of vision. It's been said before, but you can play MGS1 almost entirely by just looking at the radar.
[QUOTE]

The series has changed since then, although you're correct that MGS1 doesn't have much in the way of stealth mechanics. Although with the pseudo-isometric view it's not really needed. I've never played MGS2, but MGS3 (and I believe Portable Ops) have a paint/uniform based stealth system. However, that system is far too complicated to be used in a Thief game, although they worked well in those games.

[QUOTE=DarthEnder;993430]
MGS4's is definitely the best stealth in the series, but, like you said, it's because of octocamo, which basically makes Snake into the Predator. It's pretty much cheating. As long as you lie down and don't move, your almost invisible. Even if it's in the middle of a bright sunlit street.


Have you actually played MGS4? The Octocamo doesn't work that way at all, except maybe on the easiest level setting where the enemies can't see very far in front of them. It works essentially the same as the stealth in Thief, the only difference is that you're not looking for shadow to hide in, you're looking for grass or patterned walls/rubble. It doesn't allow you to stealth in an open field unless you're pretty far away from the enemy; you generally have to be pressed up against a wall or object.

You certainly have more places to hide than a Thief game, but the AI in MGS4 is better than the AI in any of the Thief games so IMO it balances out. In Thief, if you're gem is dark, you're safe unless they bump into you or you make noise. In MGS4, at higher difficulty settings, enemies will spot you even if your camoflauge indicator is at 100% if they get close enough. They're also extremely sensitive to sounds, so unlike Thief where you can sometimes dash by behind an enemy, you really have to creep around in MGS4 if enemies are nearby.



And all of the MGS games suffer from the ridiculous knockout system, where you can pump a guard with half a dozen tranquilizer rounds, and they'll get up as soon as another guard kicks them, or if you just leave them lying there for about a minute and a half. In fact, MGS is pretty much the worst case scenario for the very mechanic being suggested in this thread.

The debate is whether or not guards should wake up. You're basically saying that the MGS mechanic is bad because it exists. I can see that there is a realism issue with the way MGS implements it, but in the context of those games it works. Levels are smaller, so you only need them to be out for a couple of minutes. Having them still be wakable regardless of how many darts you stick in them is just a mechanic to keep you from bypassing the mechanic.

Botlas
18th May 2009, 18:37
Note: I think guards waking up is a possible mechanic and I'm going to use other game series as examples. THIS DOES NOT MEAN I WANT THIEF TO BE LIKE THOSE GAMES, so don't jump down my taffing throat when I use them as examples.

Yeah, too many people are reacting with "omg don't turn the series into Metal Thief Solid!!!!" if you mention other stealth games, without really thinking about the topic and discussing it. Thief is the only "pure" stealth game out there, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't consider stealth mechanics from other games.




Blackjack- Inducing blunt force trauma on a guard should knock them out for the duration of the level. However, if a patrolling guard finds an unconcious guard's body, the guard should be able to wake him up. I've seen this done in Splinter Cell and it doesn't kill the gameplay in the least, and actually stresses the importance of hiding knocked out guard's bodies properly.


Yeah, I think this could be implemented and not be too annoying. The question is whether they should wake up spontaneously after a set time period, even if no one finds them? I think that if the duration is long enough, and the levels are big enough, this could also be implemented and still not spoil the game.



Gas- In Hitman 2, knocked out people would eventually wake up after you give them a wiff of chloroform. This seems plausable with gas arrows, bombs and mines. The gas might knock them out for maybe ten minutes, giving you time to move their body to a different location. Upon awakening, the guard could run across the level area alerting others to a possible intruder. To prevent this, you might lock him in a room or closet so he can't get out. While locked in, he might bang on the door and shout his lungs out trying to get attention.

This is a funny idea. You'd have to really think twice about using those gas bombs, so it'd be a nice balance between gas bombs and the blackjack. Do you take the risk and try to sneak up close for a "permanent" knockout, or do you play it safe and knock them out from a distance, knowing that they'll wake up after a short time? One of the great things about Thief was that you had to think about what you were about to do, and this would add an interesting layer of thought to the gas weapons.

InGroove2
18th May 2009, 18:39
I thought we stopped talking about Batman ages ago... Bit out of the blue :hmm:

Re: Batman, I later clarified with this:

I'm not sure what I missed since, apart from the claims that I missed something, we seem to be saying the same thing... Though technically I said it first :rasp:

If the "innovation" I was supposed to have missed is someone making a film of the comic without making it over the top and laughably bad (the Schumacher films) whilst staying true to the popular roots of the story, then I guess you got me.

I like the "maybe." Nice disclaimer.

In the very same post that you quoted the Batman bit from, I said this:

Once again we seem to be agreeing.

In fact the only point we seem to be disagreeing on is whether or not it should happen... Well, that and the definition of innovation in regards to Batman.

I simply don't see the point in having it happen. Guard B will still run off and alert other people regardless of whether he can wake Guard A up or not, and if Guard A woke up he wouldn't be able to move, attack you or make any noise soon enough to alert other people (like I'd let him see me, even if he is delirious :rasp:) The result would be the same either way, therefore I don't see the point in time and resources being spent on it when there are other things that need doing.

Realism, or pseudo realism isn't always best in my opinion.

this is relaly the crux of it, huh? having argued agreeing points to an disagreeable conclusion?

ok. so. then it's NOT the same in an instance where you stow a guard away after knocking him out, then he wakes in a closet calling for help or whistling and the guards go find him which may or may not allow you a good chance to move through an area where guards just left.... so then the reward is that you move through the area, but now the guards are more alert..... i don't wanna continue the argument... just wanna say that, simply,. while you see it as pointelss... i think those little elements could be a ton of fun.

let's leave it there, then.

oh, i really lost track of this thread for a couple days... so when icame back i read the batman thing and went into it... sorry. it WAS a bit out of the blue.

peace and thief, man, that's all we need. :group_hug:

Smooogy
18th May 2009, 19:01
The problem is that both sides of the argument for and against are arguing that their method is realistic.

The side for guards waking up is arguing that it's unrealistic for a guard to not wake up during the mission and be able to go back to work.

The side against guards waking up is arguing that, not only is it unrealistic for them to wake up, but realism dictates that some of them won't even survive being blackjack.

The fact is both are technically possible results for blackjacking someone, but someone waking up early is far less likely than someone getting killed accidentally.

So the only truly realistic method to do it would be to have the result of a blackjacking be random, and that makes for terrible gameplay.


So my belief is that it should simply be assumed that, like he is with everything else(lockpicking, sneaking, archery, pickpocket) Garrett is a master at what he does, including blackjacking people, and is able to consistently put his target down for the night.


I guess I'm with Ender in the end. Unless EM gives Garrett new items to render guards unconscious like chemicals or such, he'd had to have a blackjack that was functional 100% of the time or the game would be irritating.

Nate
18th May 2009, 20:06
I'd say a good way of doing it is making the player have to tie up/gag knocked out victims as well. If they're found by an NPC, they can be untied, woken up, and the rest of the location put on high alert. It would force the player to find adequate hiding places for their victims away from well troden patrols and deal with NPCs waking up - it's not even that drammatic a departure from the previous games, and in many ways you could argue that the process is abstracted in the previous games (besides waking guards up by others.)

Haha, I actually like the idea of gagging/tying up knocked out people, so even when they wake up would still require somebody find and untie them.....makes perfect sense and can work!

The devs could put in a game mechanic that requires Garrett take several seconds to tie up/gag any NPCs you manage to gas/blackjack.

Nate
18th May 2009, 20:23
I'd say a good way of doing it is making the player have to tie up/gag knocked out victims as well. If they're found by an NPC, they can be untied, woken up, and the rest of the location put on high alert. It would force the player to find adequate hiding places for their victims away from well troden patrols and deal with NPCs waking up - it's not even that drammatic a departure from the previous games, and in many ways you could argue that the process is abstracted in the previous games (besides waking guards up by others.)

Haha, I actually like the idea of gagging/tying up knocked out people, so even when they wake up would still require somebody find and untie them.....makes perfect sense and can work!

The devs could put in a game mechanic that requires Garrett take several seconds to tie up/gag any NPCs you manage to gas/blackjack.

MasterTaffer
19th May 2009, 02:16
Sweet Jesus.

What he said. Taking several minutes to tie up a guard and gag him detracts from gameplay heavily and ontop of that would be boring and disinteresting. Just because it would take awhile to tie someone up in real life does not mean it should take that long in game. If in Hitman, Agent 47 had to go through a whole animation of him changing into a disguise (including pants, shirt, shoes, etc.) everytime he choked someone, I'de stop playing after the second time.

Nate
19th May 2009, 02:54
Hehe, tying people up could involve a mini-game with different knots to choose from...kind of like Thief DS lock picking.

Ok, everybody here knows I'm joking, right?

Mr McGee
19th May 2009, 04:07
You really shouldn't use words that you don't know what they mean, kid.

Believe me I know what a "troll" is. You basically proved it by pulling the old "kid" insult. I mean, come on, at least be a bit less obvious about it.

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 13:05
Believe me I know what a "troll" is. You basically proved it by pulling the old "kid" insult. I mean, come on, at least be a bit less obvious about it.
Thank you for proving my point. You have it stuck in your head that "troll" means "anyone who insults you".

XgunsmokeX
19th May 2009, 13:18
I think guards that wear helmets should be immune to blackjacks!

Just like how it was in Thief 2. Certain helmets would prevent it altogether. Some, would make enough noise that it would alert nearby A.I. to your presence. And, yes, the guards should act like damn near every single other stealth game in existence:they should be allowed to both; wake up after a certain amount of time, and be able to be roused back to conciousness by fellow A.I.

Anything else is just keeping Thief's gameplay locked securely in the '90s.

Also, ZylonBane: I appreciate your informing people just what exactly 'Troll' means. So many posters have no clue.

Espion
19th May 2009, 13:26
Thinking about it, those special helmets that prevent blackjacking raise a very interesting point.

The most notable difference between them and ordinairy guards was the large collar around the back of the neck.

This implies that garrett isn't hitting the persons head, rather their back (where it's possible to render someone unconscious if the right point is hit). This may be why the other guards can be affected by a blackjack despite wearing helmets.

Not to mention the softer thud sound instead of the clang if you were to hit a helmet.

Ishikawa
19th May 2009, 14:32
Oh man, i just finished reading the nine pages this thread has so far. I just hope i get all my points together now.

To follow the general theme of the discussion, i'd allow for both the guards waking up again and other guards waking them up. Now for reasoning and such.

A guard which is knocked out should wake up after some time if not moved! I'd go with ten to fifteen minutes there, twenty is too much actually, i think even the warehouse mission in thief 2, the second mission or third mission i think, didn't take me more than two and a half hours, while doing everything, so i think a quarter hour sounds reasonable (not realistic in any way). After waking up the guard should be disoriented, sleepy etc. maybe he will look for a bed, get another guard to cover his post while recuperates, depending if he actually saw or heard you. Maybe the guard was standing in a wine cellar and you decided to pour a couple bottles of wine down his throat (guard doesn't wake up as easily and even then is completely drunk) other guards would kick him instead of waking up and generally be more displeased than helpful (they smell his alcohol breath even while he's still unsconcious). Generally implementation of such a feature would go in the direction of increasing the number of possibilities between Garrett and the NPCs.

Imagine for example:
A hot summer night, the guards outside are sweating in there armors, the guarding posts are well lit, but a barrel of water where guards regulary drink out of is in a shaded area, you could switch the water with some hard alcohol make the guards drunk and therefore less of a thread. (A real exercise of patience, after all you would have to wait for every guard to get drunk first. Yes the guards would get suspicious but it's far more likely that they would blame another happily drunk guard instead of some mysterious stranger in the shadows.)

Someone mentioned that they stacked the guards on beds because they found it funny imagining the embarresment of waking up like this. Stacking guards that can wake up is hard to implement i imagine, actually i would make it so, that the guards would end up being that uncomfortable that they would unconsciously punch each other awake, but that's completely beside the point i'm going to. (And impossible as i know.)

I would want the ability to put guards in bed (Advantage: Guard harder to wake up, more likely to just tell the person who wakes him up to "Get lost i'm sleeping!" or more likely "Hmm, huh, sigh, yawn... zZz", Can of course be combined with drunk guard ;) Disadvantage: Imagine putting a guard into the suit of a servant girl, he most likely flirted with at some point, and said girl coming back and making a ruckus because the "drunk" brute is "bothering" her.)

For the point of guards waking up in impossible situations, well i imagine a guard waking up below a table or in a barrel is far more likely to knock himself out again, so there could truly be a mechanic for such things, a guard dropped into a well might make a ruckus but also has a broken leg now and can't move of it's own accord.

Such mechanics would also open the possibilities to interesting mission objectives.
Imagine a "Life of the Party" style mission in the Baron's Mansion, objective put the Sheriff and the Baroness in the Baron's bed without killing anyone :D

Well these are my 2 cents.

DarthEnder
19th May 2009, 15:01
I always assumed Garrett was hitting them in the base of the neck because of the way normal helmets were useless against the blackjack and the anti-blackjack helms had neck protection.


As for ZB, yes, he is trolling(which means to post something with the express purpose of starting an argument, which he's absolutely doing). So just stop responding to him. It only gives him what he wants.

Belboz
19th May 2009, 15:30
The only time guard should wake up is in the open hud city surrounding the mission levels, as for the mission levels, if you can go back to them after a mission is completed, maybe the guards you've knocked out have a heightened awareness, but guards shouldn't wake up after being knocked out during a mission, it would make lots of people play the difulculty level that allows killing, and the guards would then be killed, and loads of players wouldn't even touch the higher difficulties if they knew the guards were going to wake up after being knocked out.

I haven't bothered reading the previous posts as there's a obvious flame war going on.

Smooogy
19th May 2009, 15:40
The blackjack is probably the only most realistic tool at Garrett's disposal. The gas arrows are very effective but they're not the discussion here.

It would be impossible to knock out a guard by hitting their helmet with a blackjack so garrett would have to aim for the neck. That's why I'm in favor of allowing garrett to murder more on higher difficulty settings (even though that's treason among thief fans lol )

Killing the guards would make more sense. Someone said something about tying guards up, which would work, but then Garrett would have to carry of a bundle of rope like indiana jones.

Espion
19th May 2009, 16:11
but then Garrett would have to carry of a bundle of rope like indiana jones.

Or use items of their clothing to tie and bind them. This is the common practice when tying someone up on the spur of the moment and doesn't require you carry a length of rope everywhere you go, just in case you decide to do so.

MasterTaffer
19th May 2009, 16:56
Believe me I know what a "troll" is. You basically proved it by pulling the old "kid" insult. I mean, come on, at least be a bit less obvious about it.

Just ignore him and don't validate his behavior. If he continues, just report him and it'll catch up to him sooner or later.

As a wise man once said, "Never argue with an idiot, they'll just stoop you down to their level and beat you with experience."

Terr
19th May 2009, 17:03
Trolls are often insincere troublemakers (they don't believe what they post, and just like riling people up and/or seeing people respond.) Another behavior is one-track-mind bull-headed arguers who post the same things all the time even though the entire conversation has been done before to death, since it is sometimes hard to tell if they're actually just doing a sort of rhetorical spamming.

Someone can be a jerk and an idiot without being a troll, since the main issue is a sort of posting habit.

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 17:03
As a wise man once said, "Never argue with an idiot, they'll just stoop you down to their level and beat you with experience."
The expression is "drag" you down to their level. "Stoop" isn't even a transitive verb.

But thanks anyway for reminding me why getting involved in this thread was a mistake.

Terr
19th May 2009, 17:10
Zylon: In the event that those other folks are wrong about you, I hope you'll take it as constructive criticism that your technical point had some merit... You just didn't bring it out until your did a pointless one-liner "This thread is idiotic"-style post. Starting with the wrong foot, as it were.

Belboz
19th May 2009, 17:17
If Garrett then kills guards, then he's not a thief no more, but sometype of ninja assasin. Well maybe they could give him a weapon that fires a stickey substance made from the giant spiders spinnerets, so that he can bind the knocked out guards with that, but then he'lled be some sort of spider man. You could have a mission where one of the city lords has gone into the silk business, but instead of using silk worms, he's using spider silk, as the big spiders are easily available and silk worms aren't he has a big silk farm farming spider silk, he's also developed a gun that uses the gathered silk, this gun is a non violent capturing device, garrett would be interested in shutting this down, and getting the prototype of the gun for himself. There easy way to get gun into game without spoiling anything.

DarthEnder
19th May 2009, 21:49
If Garrett then kills guards, then he's not a thief no more, but sometype of ninja assasin.Yeah, every rogue in every D&D game would be to differ.

Being a Thief means plain and simple that you are someone who steals things. Killing people or not is a completely separate issue. If a bank robber shoots a guard, that doesn't make him any less a bank robber. It just also makes him a murderer. But a bank robber he remains. It's a same deal with a thief, a person can be a thief, and a murder, but killing while he's stealing things doesn't suddenly make him an assassin. An assassin is someone who's objective is to kill a specific person or persons, not someone who's objective is to steal valuables.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
19th May 2009, 22:36
How disappointing to see pointless bickering going on. :( Isn't there supposed to be honour among thieves? :scratch:

When posts get too 'personal', the discussion begins to deteriorate.
If two people wish to have a slapping match, they should use their PM box. Others should avoid joining in because it just makes the situation worse. The best course of action is to use the 'report' button and leave it at that.
Hopefully I won't have to mention the obvious again, I've got more important things to do - like reading all the good discussion about T4.


*Sigh* "I'll be home soon, drinking good dark ale, nibbling on a nice leg of mutton, forgetting about this place...."


;)

randomtaffer
19th May 2009, 23:13
Perhaps the best idea would be to put it as a difficulty level thing.

Normal: Guards might wake up every once in a while
Hard: Guards will wake up more often
Expert: Guards will wake up after some time.

TazmanianD
19th May 2009, 23:43
Perhaps the best idea would be to put it as a difficulty level thing.
Unless I'm mistaken, I think TDS originally intended to have multiple difficulty customizations like loot requirements, guard awareness, kill vs. knock out requirements or being detected or not but they couldn't get it done and just ended up with the familiar single difficulty slider. I wonder if that would be a good idea to try for Thief 4. That would allow people to pick and choose the challenge they want.

Nate
20th May 2009, 00:09
Sure, I would like to see a difficulty setting controlling the chance of guards waking up as time passes.

I would have it on the most difficult setting.

WVI
20th May 2009, 00:16
Unless I'm mistaken, I think TDS originally intended to have multiple difficulty customizations like loot requirements, guard awareness, kill vs. knock out requirements or being detected or not but they couldn't get it done and just ended up with the familiar single difficulty slider. I wonder if that would be a good idea to try for Thief 4. That would allow people to pick and choose the challenge they want.

Ooh, that sounds like a great idea. I'd love to see that implemented. Could have more special customizations, too, like not/only entering certain rooms or items allowed.

GmanPro
20th May 2009, 00:19
^^ I'd like that for when I want to play a mission where the guards have heightened awareness, but I don't feel like scouring the entire map for every last tiny piece of loot.

Slugo
20th May 2009, 00:20
Having a difficulty slider that allows guards to wake up over time sounds GREAT!!!!!

Just make sure the time it takes for the guards to wake up is 'somewhat' random (like give or take 20 minutes, for example).

Shuttlecat
20th May 2009, 00:41
I think the waking up idea is a good one. Not every hit will knock you out for hours on end. And it's a game. It would make it more interesting if they could wake up on random time lengths, or not at all.

TazmanianD
20th May 2009, 02:47
I don't feel like scouring the entire map for every last tiny piece of loot.
Ah, the wonderful variety of taste. I love scouring the map for every last piece of loot (hence my intense distaste for loot glint). I can't say I've even remotely been able to find 100% of it, but I keep trying. I've played Thief 2 some half a dozen times and each time I play, I know there's loot I haven't found yet and if I try hard enough, I may just find a bit more each time. Last time I found a secret I had never found before. And I keep refusing to find a good loot through to read.

randomtaffer
20th May 2009, 03:10
How would they react upon waking up? Obviously if another guard revived them, they'd be alerted, but if they just woke up on their own?

Would they realize how long they've been out? Would they just think that they tripped and fell and get back up as if nothing happened? Would they alert another guard?

Maybe we should discuss that.

Edit: perhaps if you move them, they'll be alerted upon waking up, but if you drop them and leave them, they won't realize they've been blackjacked.
If I was knocked unconscious and woke up in a broom closet with my wallet gone, I'd probably think something was up.

Thugo
20th May 2009, 03:36
That would be a great dynamic choice between leaving then where they fall (and risk someone finding them) but if they wake up they won't raise an alarm. Or move them and they know something happened for sure when they wake up.

Nifty idea!

Helegad
20th May 2009, 09:21
I like the idea of guards and civilians being able to wake others up, but otherwise, no, there should not be any wakey-wakey (eggs and bakey, thank you Kill Bill) :P

Mikkowl
21st May 2009, 06:54
Should unconscious people be able to wake up again during the course of a mission?

Answer: Yes. Randomized. It should be extremely rare that they wake up within 3-5 minutes however, if at all. After that, slowly raise the chance of awakenings.

I suggest however that several stages of awakenings be used. One for awake, one for knocked out, one for half-awake (making a bit of noises but unable to speak properly and get up, etc).

This will enhance realism, immersion, give more incentive to put bodies in a place they are not easily heard or seen in, and also put some kind of reasonable pressure on the player not to drag things out for hours in the same area.

Nate
21st May 2009, 07:03
Hehe, you hear a guard starting to wake up.....then you run over and whack him on the head again!

I LOVE IT!

XgunsmokeX
21st May 2009, 16:53
That would probably kill him, in real life.

Platinumoxicity
21st May 2009, 17:03
Random wake-ups would encourage people to "finish" their knocked-out opponets. I personally would never risk my mission by temporarily neutralizing my opponents. I prefer staying hidden altogether though.

But the "guards and civilians being able to wake others up" is a pretty good idea indeed. :)

Mikkowl
22nd May 2009, 08:06
Incentive for killing rather than temporarily disabling? Sure, if killing stays the same, and if it's even allowed.

1. "You're a thief, not a murderer. Don't kill anyone"
2. Killing could be louder in the act (AAAHHH AN ARROW IN MY STOMACH), and otherwise leave more immediate nasty traces, like blood stains which others, coming to the aid of the screamer, finds more easily. And then the body must still be deposed of - now more difficult than just knocked out.

Keeper_Riff
22nd May 2009, 09:03
1. "You're a thief, not a murderer. Don't kill anyone"
2. Killing could be louder in the act (AAAHHH AN ARROW IN MY STOMACH), and otherwise leave more immediate nasty traces, like blood stains which others, coming to the aid of the screamer, finds more easily. And then the body must still be deposed of - now more difficult than just knocked out.

1. There're several ways of killing NPCs (especially unconscious ones) without failing this objective.
2. A waken up screaming guard (AAAHHH SOMEBODY HIT ME STOLE MY KEY) running around the mansion would be much more trouble than one single scream.

I see a balanced wake-up script in this way:

1. If an NPC is knocked down by a gas arrow, he will become "sleeping" in 5-10 minutes and can wake up if he hears some noise
2. If an NPC is knoked down by a blackjack, then other NPC can wake him up. Then they will search for some time, maybe check some important places in a house, then give up searching.
3. If an NPC finds a dead body, he will run and scream to the guards, making most of the guards searching for the culprit. It will take a long amount of time (up to 20-30 minutes) for them to calm down and decide that the murderer has gone.

And yes, if there's any chance that unconscious guards will wake up on their own, I will kill them after BJ'ing or dump them to some location where they will not be able to get out from.

Mikkowl
22nd May 2009, 09:25
There were loopholes before that allowed you to kill even though you should not have been able to. Hopefully, that will be corrected this time around. Meaning you'll have to play on easy to be allowed the option to kill people ;)

Platinumoxicity
22nd May 2009, 09:45
"You're a thief, not a murderer. Don't kill anyone" - There're several ways of killing NPCs (especially unconscious ones) without failing this objective.


What the taff are you talking about? :scratch:
You're saying that you can kill without being a murderer? By accident, do you mean? I don't understand.

dnoeyen
23rd May 2009, 11:06
No. It would be annoying.

agree

xDarknessFallsx
24th May 2009, 04:00
Edit: Bah, removing post for now.

Keeper_Riff
24th May 2009, 07:46
What the taff are you talking about?Hammer throwing, pushing to water/fire etc. I was talking about gameplay and objectives, not the moral aspect

DarthEnder
25th May 2009, 20:14
What the taff are you talking about? :scratch:
You're saying that you can kill without being a murderer? By accident, do you mean? I don't understand.Frogbeast eggs kill people, and they count as the frogbeast killing them, not you.

And like someone else said, you could have things "happen" to a KO'd guards body that didn't count as you killing him. Like, "Oops! He fell into the tub!" or "Oops! He fell into the fireplace."

ToMegaTherion
25th May 2009, 20:57
Frogbeast eggs could even cause a kill in Casing the Joint without failing the mission.

DarthEnder
26th May 2009, 00:42
Yep. It's the Tricksters fault when a frogbeast kills someone, not yours!

Cybele
26th May 2009, 15:56
*Imagines knocking out a lot of guards in a short time period, gathering them all up into a huge pile and then sit back to watch how the guards at the bottom of the pile start to wake up*
Hmmmm I support the idea :D

Iscor
27th May 2009, 16:07
it's not a bad idea at all having the guards wake back up, when I first started playing Thief I used to wonder about why the guards never came to. I guess it would get kind of annoying though having every guard you just thumped pop back up on your way back out of a place. If there's the option of a 'easy' and 'hard' setting you could have it on one but not the other or vary the time it takes for a guard to wake back up. (depending on difficulty setting)

But I do support the idea. More realistic, probably more interesting also.

Caranfin
27th May 2009, 17:17
when I first started playing Thief I used to wonder about why the guards never came to.
Because you clunked them over the head with a heavy piece of lead, and probably didn't stay in the mission for more than a couple of hours at most.

Guards coming to on their own is a bad idea. People being able to wake knocked out guards up again, in heavily reduced capacity due to the horrible headache, could work, though.

Sierra Oscar
27th May 2009, 17:23
How about something along the lines of first hit is a knock out, then to finish the job another few hits to the head on the ground . . . which creates lots of noise - raising the risk of alerting other guards.

;)

MasterTaffer
27th May 2009, 19:55
How about something along the lines of first hit is a knock out, then to finish the job another few hits to the head on the ground . . . which creates lots of noise - raising the risk of alerting other guards.

;)

Given how blunt trauma to the head works, that would most likely result in death. Hitting someone with a blackjack isn't a love tap. It's a very hard blow, and in real life its very possible to kill someone with one strike to the head.

Sierra Oscar
27th May 2009, 20:25
Given how blunt trauma to the head works, that would most likely result in death. Hitting someone with a blackjack isn't a love tap. It's a very hard blow, and in real life its very possible to kill someone with one strike to the head.

Very true - but in the end a balance needs to be reached between realism, and what the players actually want from gameplay.

MasterTaffer
27th May 2009, 22:52
Very true - but in the end a balance needs to be reached between realism, and what the players actually want from gameplay.

Beating a stunned/unconcious guard seems like overkill even from a gameplay standpoint. Thief's current method of clonking an unaware person upside the head works just fine and doesn't need tweaking. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Whether or not they should be able to wake up on their own is a better point of debate. Being able to wake up under a guard's own power can break the flow of the game and cause major problems. But, if another guard finds an unconcious guard, it isn't unrealistic for one to expect him tow ake him up. This will stress the importance of hiding bodies more than break the gameplay flow.

Earlier in the thread, I thought that knocking someone out via gas could result in them waking, but the more I thought about it, the less of a good idea it became. Gassed guards should have the same perameters for waking up as blackjacked ones. If a guard finds a slumbering body, he should wake him up.

Nate
28th May 2009, 07:09
I definitely support the idea of NPCs being able to wake up sleeping guards/civilians....maybe take 10 or more seconds to wake them up completely.

Randomly having them wake up on their own....I see both good and bad there.

DarthEnder
28th May 2009, 08:59
Very true - but in the end a balance needs to be reached between realism, and what the players actually want from gameplay.Except that it doesn't.

Good gameplay requires them to not wake up.

Realism requires them to not wake up.


People arguing for guards waking up don't actually have any basis for their argument.

[OF] Seferg
28th May 2009, 23:16
wouldnt it be a good idea if...people that were knocked out would revive after a period of time? gassed guards could revive in 15or 30 minutes (maybe charge more for gas grenades that kept them unconscious longer) and blackjacked ones for a flat 20 min or something?

HellionKal
28th May 2009, 23:22
Join the never-ending fun here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88594). All 10 pages of it.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
29th May 2009, 13:54
Seferg;1007275']wouldnt it be a good idea if...people that were knocked out would revive after a period of time? gassed guards could revive in 15or 30 minutes (maybe charge more for gas grenades that kept them unconscious longer) and blackjacked ones for a flat 20 min or something?

I merged your post into existing discussion thread. :)

kin
29th May 2009, 18:15
What if certain guards-AI are capable of waking up? For example more bulky guards could wake after 30 minutes while more cachectic AI could stay down as long as you want. Judging from the AI setup the player must be observant who to hide who to leave down and who to secure after blackjacking.

CookieMcCrumble
29th May 2009, 18:22
I think a good idea would be that guards too wake up after a certain time period. That time period is chosen by how accurate and hard your hit with the blackjack is.

Once your enemies are unconscious - I think it would be useful to have something you could use to go back to the guards and keep them out for longer - some chemical you need to make them breathe in or something. Or a set number of injections you can give them with a chemical that can knock them out for ages.

Or even, how about being able to tie guards to particular dark areas with a gag and large bag over their head once you've knocked them out. Imagine tying a guard up behind a statue in a dark corner, where none of the other guards could see or hear him/her :D

DarthEnder
29th May 2009, 18:29
I do think certain types on non-human enemies could be able to wake up. Like any kind of creature with regeneration. It wouldn't protect them from being knocked out, but they'd recover from it quickly.

TafferPants
30th May 2009, 03:25
I remember the game "Stolen" having guards wake up after 5 or so minutes of you knocking them out. then they would trip the alarm.

And yes it was annoying. Very annoying.

Personally I think Thief 4 should just be like the pervious games. One bonk is all ya need.

CookieMcCrumble
30th May 2009, 08:39
Whereas I do like my ideas about guards being able to wake up, I do agree that it would be quite annoying if they did. MGS4 was a pain for that, when you knock enemies out with a tranq, they do wake up a short while later. It can really mess up your tactics lol

DarthEnder
30th May 2009, 09:37
So you like the idea...but you think it's annoying...

namron
30th May 2009, 10:06
i like the idea that they only can wake up if another guard wakes them up that means theres more reason to hide there bodies

crazy_bex
31st May 2009, 00:23
I do like the idea for the guards waking up again, HOWEVER, it can make the game frustrating and unnecessarily difficult. What I think would be a good idea, is that the guards waking up could be included in a higher level of difficulty, and while on easy, the guards could stay knocked out, therefore making it optional. This way Thief 4 could satisfy everyone, as alot of people would find this too difficult while others would find it more enjoyable.

I do like the idea of other NPCs waking them up. Makes the game more realistic and more challenging.

But like I said, I think it would be a really good idea to include this sort of thing, but on higher difficulty levels only.

Vae
31st May 2009, 01:59
People arguing for guards waking up don't actually have any basis for their argument.
Untrue.



Realism requires them to not wake up.

Humans that have been hit on head and knocked unconscious with a hard object will normally awaken within a time span of minutes to hours depending on their physical constitution and how hard the hit was. This creates a REAL possiblity of a guard waking up within the course of a mission.



Good gameplay requires them to not wake up.

I think that game enjoyment/challenge would be enhanced by the possiblity that a fellow person had a chance to wake up the unconscious person if encountered. This would make you THINK twice on deciding whether it would be wise to knockout that peasant/guard at all, and one would be more careful about hiding the body. ;)

GmanPro
31st May 2009, 02:02
The game is supposed to encourage you to knock people out instead of killing them. Having people wake up again is counter intuitive.


Humans that have been hit on head and knocked unconscious with hard objects will normally awaken within a time span of minutes to hours depending on their physical constitution and how hard the hit was. This creates a REAL possiblity of a guard waking up within the course of a mission.


If by minutes to hours you mean 15+ hours, then yeah.

MasterTaffer
31st May 2009, 02:04
Untrue.


Humans that have been hit on head and knocked unconscious with a hard object will normally awaken within a time span of minutes to hours depending on their physical constitution and how hard the hit was. This creates a REAL possiblity of a guard waking up within the course of a mission.


I think that game enjoyment/challenge would be enhanced by the possiblity that a fellow person had a chance to wake up the unconscious person if encountered. This would make you THINK twice on deciding whether it would be wise to knockout that peasant/guard at all, and one would be more careful about hiding the body. ;)

Indeed. Randomly waking guards is a mechanic that would punish the player for no reason. It's a bad mechanic and shouldn't be implimented (Despite my early comments about waking up after being gassed).

Other people waking an unconcious person after discovering them punishes a player for being sloppy and not hiding the body well enough/at all. This is a wise idea, as it penalizes the player for being careless with more than an alert guard and a tally on their stats screen.

Vae
31st May 2009, 02:44
The game is supposed to encourage you to knock people out instead of killing them.

The game is supposed to encourage you to be creative in your tactical approach in order to achieve the desired objective/mission. Why would you always have to knockout or kill? Why limit your options? Distraction, evasion and alternative routes are examples of different ways to handle things. It is not always necessary to decide "I see enemy - must destroy". In most situations it is possible to bypass the enemy threat without having to kill or knockout. Also, players will not be always be allowed to the kill/knockout guards and peasants if EM designs the mission/difficulty levels well.



Having people wake up again is counter intuitive.

Counter intuitive to what? Be specific.



If by minutes to hours you mean 15+ hours, then yeah.

Yeah, I mean from 5 minutes to 15+ hours. That's the realistic range of possible recovery.

GmanPro
31st May 2009, 02:52
How about you get someone to knock you out and see how long it takes you to wake up. If you get back up in 5 minutes, I'll eat my foot.

Vae
31st May 2009, 02:58
Other people waking an unconcious person after discovering them punishes a player for being sloppy and not hiding the body well enough/at all.

As it should be. :)

MasterTaffer
31st May 2009, 03:03
How about you get someone to knock you out and see how long it takes you to wake up. If you get back up in 5 minutes, I'll eat my foot.

Very mature, kid.

GmanPro
31st May 2009, 03:07
Its a valid point. No one gets up in that short a time. I was just driving that fact home. Stop trying to patronize me

MasterTaffer
31st May 2009, 03:15
Having been knocked unconcious with a hard blow to the head in my life, I can confirm that it's possible to wake up minutes later under your own power. You going to eat your foot now or just continue your petty and snarky attitude?

A little maturity goes a long way, kid.