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kin
12th May 2009, 18:02
Ok i mange to find how to make the poll with Victorias help so i will redo the post in a poll form so the devs can see more clearly the results. Victoria i am not sure what should be done with the old post it is up to you.

What do you like first person third person or both?

Personaly i hate third person even simply existing in game without using it.
Why? The game should be developed accordingly to that view also.

Direlord
12th May 2009, 18:13
I'm of the party of 1st person only. If they want to develope it for consoles fine but keep it first person

Terr
12th May 2009, 18:15
They each have different strengths. There are situations for each.

There's no gameplay reason not to do something which uses both. Third-person doesn't inherently mean looking around corners.

speon
12th May 2009, 18:51
One of the reasons that third person didn't work so well for Thief: Deadly Shadows was that it ended up making Garrett's movement, and the tactile feel of his movements (essential to Thief, I'd argue) much more dependent upon and driven by camera animations and the character animation controller, rather than exclusively from the player's direct input (via keyboard and mouse).

For example in DS, when Garrett was perched on a beam or rafter in 3rd person, merely spinning the camera around him caused him to shift his orientation animation, therefore shifting his physical XYZ position in the world, where he would then fall off said beam. All from simply panning the 3rd person camera around him while squatting in place.

Another example from DS, would be how even in first person, the feel of camera turning would have noticeable, jarring hitches when the player's mouse movements would reach the point where Garrett's head could no longer rotate (because of body awareness/3rd person art used in 1st person) and would start turning his body as well. This ended up feeling awkward and sluggish. Certainly not in time with where I expected the body and camera to be based on my input.

Additionally, Garrett's body would often have to physically turn to 'catch up to' where the player has their view pointed. This introduced a very noticeable lag and (it also had the effect of shifting the camera slightly to the left or right because of Garrett's turning animation) and general discomfort from the camera doing something your mind and eyes aren't expecting. The cumulative effect from all of this after playing for extended periods of time was pretty frustrating and felt very un-Thief-like.

I feel that in Thief games, the kinetic and nimble movement of Garrett, coupled with an immersive 1st person perspective (all the direct result of the Dark Engine coding) are what enables the player to feel like a stealthy thief, free within the confines of the level. In Deadly Shadows, the player felt limited and artificially controlled by a clunky animation and camera system and the poor mechanics ended up driving the visceral experience of playing the game, rather than the player.

If 3rd person is still to be an option, I hope it can resemble behavior in games where the camera is purely a window into the gameworld and any player animations are performed after, or in response to the player's direct input, not driving or limiting player control. Good examples of this, I feel, are the third person camera behavior in both Max Payne games, and WoW.

xXFl4meXx
12th May 2009, 19:01
For example in DS, when Garrett was perched on a beam or rafter in 3rd person, merely spinning the camera around him caused him to shift his orientation animation, therefore shifting his physical XYZ position in the world, where he would then fall off said beam. All from simply panning the 3rd person camera around him while squatting in place.


Yeah exactly, that is something I really hated. Especially when you attempt to get up onto the roofs in Old Quarter, youd always fall off that beam.. It was just ridiculous.. and made me :mad2:

Thievingtaffer
12th May 2009, 19:35
First Person only. I wouldn't use 3rd even if it were flawless.

Zadok the Priest
12th May 2009, 21:08
1st person. I am Garrett.

3rd person is a detachment that takes you further away from the character.

randomtaffer
12th May 2009, 21:13
Agreed. Thief has never been and (God willing) will never be anything like LoK.

kerrang
12th May 2009, 21:14
plz let us choose both views ! :o

Tiptoe
13th May 2009, 09:17
Thankyou Kin for making this topic, because it's incredibly important to me. In fact, it's so important that the answer to this question will determine if I buy the game or not.

I was tempted to vote 'Third person only' because that's the only view I can play in (I suffer from motion sickness) but I think both views should be implemented. That way everybody is happy.

I really don't understand people who insist on everybody playing the game their way or no way. How can my playing the game in third person view possibly effect you in anyway? It's none of your business how I choose to play. If you want to play in first person that's fine, but I prefer third person view.

In fact, I've never been able to play the first two Thief games because of the first person view. So Thief: Deadly Shadows is the only game I've played in the series and I only bought it because it had a third person option.

As much as I love Thief: Deadly Shadows, if Thief4 doesn't offer a third person view then I won't be buying it. I'm sorry, but I'm not buying a game that makes me feel sick.

Just my two cents.

Frappo
13th May 2009, 09:22
I totally prefer the first person, but maybe is not so bad if you could choose

Tiptoe
13th May 2009, 09:51
For example in DS, when Garrett was perched on a beam or rafter in 3rd person, merely spinning the camera around him caused him to shift his orientation animation, therefore shifting his physical XYZ position in the world, where he would then fall off said beam. All from simply panning the 3rd person camera around him while squatting in place.

If 3rd person is still to be an option, I hope it can resemble behavior in games where the camera is purely a window into the gameworld and any player animations are performed after, or in response to the player's direct input, not driving or limiting player control. Good examples of this, I feel, are the third person camera behavior in both Max Payne games, and WoW.

Speon that is very well said and I totally agree with you. If using a third person view, I think instead of the player turning with the camera, the camera should rotate 'around' the player.

I've never played Max Payne or WoW, but I believe this is the type of third person camera you're referring to (Neverwinter Nights2 and Dungeon Siege use the same system) and in my opinion it's perfect!

I can look behind me and all around with this type of camera and there's no risk of falling off beams or anything, because the player's movements aren't tied to the camera, he only moves when I tell him to.

As to the subject of player movement, I'm going to throw another cat among the pigeons and request mouse point & click as well as WASD controls.

In Thief: Deadly Shadows I mapped forward movement to my left mouse button (cause I can't stand using the keyboard to move my character) this worked really well with that particular camera system (ie: the player moved in the direction of the camera).

But if they do decide to give us a camera that rotates freely around the player, then I'd much rather use point and click controls. Moving and turning and backing up with the WASD keys would drive me insane :mad2:, so I'd much rather just click on a location and have the player go there.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to have both third and first person views and the choice of using either the WASD keys or the mouse to move the player around? Play the game the way you want to play it!

Ah well, there's no harm in wishing :rolleyes.

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
13th May 2009, 11:19
First person. There are enough third person stealth games (Hitman, Splinter Cell, MGS) - fpp makes Thief special.

http://www.incgamers.com/Interviews/183/Thief4DeveloperInterview/2

This interview incredibly worries me. I'm afraid they'll turn it into an Assassin's Creed clone. "Innovations" usually mean killing the gameplay that made the original special and catering to newcomers to the series by making the game similar to other popular titles on the market.

simlan
13th May 2009, 11:30
i am of using both perspectives though the 3rd person would need to be worked on as mention in earlier posts.

although my preference was first person of the first 2 games so a similar feeling would be a step in the right direction in my opinion.
When in first person (whether both perspectives are used or just first person) i heavily stress the continuation and use of leaning as this is part of what made the game so immersible, and feeling like the character e.g. leaning forward to look in crates

Dia1
13th May 2009, 13:21
I definitely prefer 1st person. From what I understand, if the devs take the time & make the effort to create a 3rd person view as well as 1st person then they end up not having the time/resources to attend to other parts of the game they're developing. I'd rather see the devs devote their time to creating a 1st person view only and use the time, etc., that might have been spent developing a 3rd person as well to make the rest of the game exceptional. Imho 3rd person (for Garrett) was clumsy and confusing, just not very practical, and detracted from the game.

Tohtori
13th May 2009, 13:52
The first person only is the right way. IMO games need to be designed either as 3rd or 1st person or they will mess up like T3 did. I personally find 3rd person view in games very limiting and frustrating. The 1st person gives u more the feeling that you are in the center of the action and you can move and examine everything more freely.

esme
13th May 2009, 13:59
there's no problem with giving the player a choice

however I personally only ever use first person view

when I'm playing then thats me in there and I can't usually see the back of my own head unless I've had an out of body experience of some kind so it kills the immersion for me

plus I find the avatar gets in the way of what I want to look at

as for movement I use the mouse for turning/look up/down, mouse buttons for weapon control/item use, mouse wheel for item selection and I map keypad buttons for move forward/back/run/strafe/jump and weapon select as long as I can set this up I'll be ok

I've got so used to this I don't even think about it I just do it while playing and it helps me immerse, so a user programmable movement and control system would be my ideal so everyone can set things up the way they want rather than having a control system imposed

Necros
13th May 2009, 14:35
I like both. But if they can't do FPV properly because of the TPV, then loose the TPV, it's only an extra. I prefer the FPV too, of course.

BoldEnglishman
13th May 2009, 15:26
First person is really the only way to go for Thief personally, though there is no reason why EM can't include a third person view option.

OnionKnight
13th May 2009, 15:39
First person, not because of anything to do with the game mechanics but because of the immersion.

Terr
13th May 2009, 18:30
As to the subject of player movement, I'm going to throw another cat among the pigeons and request mouse point & click as well as WASD controls.
OK, wtf? If your mouse rotates the camera, how exactly could you choose anything to click on? Are you talking about "Thief, the RTS"?


Moving and turning and backing up with the WASD keys would drive me insane :mad2:, so I'd much rather just click on a location and have the player go there.

Sorry, I can't imagine what you want actually working with the game. (Or I misunderstand what you want.)

I agree it's possible to screw up WASD + free-camera controls, but it's also possible to do them well.

DF-HellFier
13th May 2009, 18:37
Say: No to 3d person!

D.H1cks
13th May 2009, 19:26
I say include both. I will only play 1st person view, but I understand others may enjoy 3rd.

DF-HellFier
13th May 2009, 19:38
I say include both. I will only play 1st person view, but I understand others may enjoy 3rd.

Read post's # 110 & 111: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=990631#post990631

Caranfin
18th May 2009, 19:46
I really don't understand people who insist on everybody playing the game their way or no way. How can my playing the game in third person view possibly effect you in anyway? It's none of your business how I choose to play. If you want to play in first person that's fine, but I prefer third person view.
A lot of people, including me, think that the controls in Deadly Shadows were really stiff and didn't work as well as they did in the first two, and that it was caused by the third person view and the subsequent need for the character model to go through animations in order to turn and so on. I'm personally not against having a third person view as an option, as long as it doesn't screw up the way I play in first person.

Yaphy
18th May 2009, 21:17
I use the first person view (If i use the 3rd person view i just cheat). But if the 3rd person view doesnt affect the 1rs person view i dont mind having it at all.

agrash
18th May 2009, 21:23
Both.
Mainstream games are more likely to go to 3d person because of the better overview and they're used to stealth games in 3d person (hitman, SC,..) , while the fans still prefer first person.

And to be honest i also used TPS during the scary parts on my first run. I just didn't want to stumble against some zombies or puppets ^^

Kennerinn
18th May 2009, 23:16
First person only please. Don't waste time on any other perspective.

Nate
18th May 2009, 23:22
First person all the way!

Positives for a first person only Thief 4

-maps are easier to make...no need to concern about 3rd person view camera clipping
-game is more immersive for players...they ARE Garrett, not just watching Garrett
-less time wasted on 3rd person can go into other improving other parts of the game
-the fans overwhelmingly prefer 1rst person ONLY

Thieffanman
19th May 2009, 05:50
First person only. When playing TDS, it felt like the action was happening to *me* :). I found myself tilting in my chair to avoid hits :). I've also found that first-person helps a player get more interested and emotionally invested in their game.

When it comes to Thief, first-person is the way to go.

--Thieffanman

Ishikawa
19th May 2009, 08:59
I don't think it can be said enough, third person view broke leaning and made it possible to "cheat" with looking around corners.

The first two Thief games were a god send back in the day, first person view, fluid movement and animations and yet it didn't at all feel like a first person shooter, i would like this kind of experience back with thief 4, yes motion sickness is an argument against it, but i also always felt that a well played thief session is slow, like every step you do, every action you take is very deliberate and always a carefully calculated risk on your part.

Well maybe this is just me.

Third person view maybe mainstream and casual gamer friendly but that doesn't mean that there may not be a way to make first person view the same. Thief 1 and 2 were a unique experience back in the day, the immersion first person view provides might just be enough to change the preference of some players.

Slickleg
19th May 2009, 15:45
I'm also in the 'First Person Only' camp.

Not trying to ruin the game for people who enjoy 3rd person but that's exactly what the added perspective did to the 1st. Someone mentioned before how much the responsiveness was changed and I completely agree. It made the third game much harder to play (not in a good way), and it killed the intense feeling of immersion found in the first two games.

For me, the thief games have been about atmosphere and immersion and the 3rd person perspective really took that away.

Yaphy
19th May 2009, 17:17
I'm also in the 'First Person Only' camp.

Not trying to ruin the game for people who enjoy 3rd person but that's exactly what the added perspective did to the 1st. Someone mentioned before how much the responsiveness was changed and I completely agree. It made the third game much harder to play (not in a good way), and it killed the intense feeling of immersion found in the first two games.

For me, the thief games have been about atmosphere and immersion and the 3rd person perspective really took that away.

But if they changed that so the third person view doesnt screw up the first person view, whould it make any difference? If they made first person be like thief I and Thief II, but still have a third person view for those who wants it (not me, but i know people who would want it).

I played deadly shadows today to see if they thought about the jumy screen at first person vs third person. The one thing i found is that when you blackjack in third person; Garret makes a really powerful move that makes his head move like crazy. But in first person you just see the arm move and the screen is still at position. So they actually had thought about it a little back then. If you started a blackjack move int third person and fast after you click; go in to first person you know can see Garrets head move like crazy even in first person, only if just for an instant.
I think they've changed the "blackjack animation" according to if you use third person or first person view. Okey, it wasnt that great, but know they knew they made wrong and can make a better first person view and still have a third person view.
If you can hold yourself from "cheating" this wouldnt do any change for you, but help other people buy and play the game. Eidos would make more mony and more people out there would be satisfied. :)

Smooogy
19th May 2009, 17:32
Third person has its charm but I want to play the entire game in first person. It is the most immersive mode IMO. Some people go with third person being that way, but most of them are only used to playing dumbed down console versions of potentially magnificent games.

They can add a third person mode anyway and I hope they do, but If it inhibits production of the game, forget it.

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 17:38
Seeing the way some of these polls go, I bet if someone started a "Should Garrett have a jetpack?" poll, it would get a not-insignificant number of "Yes!" votes.

WVI
19th May 2009, 17:41
So? It's a poll. They'd have every right to say yes.

It's a dumb idea, but that's how it works.

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 17:52
So? It's a poll. They'd have every right to say yes.

It's a dumb idea, but that's how it works.
I'd say you just answered your own question.

Yaphy
19th May 2009, 18:12
. Some people go with third person being that way, but most of them are only used to playing dumbed down console versions of potentially magnificent games.


Funny! ROFLMAO. Im used to the Xbox360 vs PS3 vs Wii arguments! First time i hear PC vs Xbox360, PS3 and Wii! :lmao:

Smooogy
19th May 2009, 18:25
Funny! ROFLMAO. Im used to the Xbox360 vs PS3 vs Wii arguments! First time i hear PC vs Xbox360, PS3 and Wii! :lmao:

;) Well us people who have been spoiled by the awesome PC experience have a bias I think. I like my PS3. I play Mk vs DC all the time, but it's not in the same league with my rig. Especially not since I have bose companion speakers :p

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 18:36
Funny! ROFLMAO. Im used to the Xbox360 vs PS3 vs Wii arguments! First time i hear PC vs Xbox360, PS3 and Wii! :lmao:
What the smeg rock have you been living under? Console vs PC arguments are as old as console gaming itself.

Yaphy
19th May 2009, 20:53
Yes, but i've never seen it this open. I have messed around with my friends about it but not really thought about it for real. The only major thing would be the mouse and keyboard vs controller. :nut:

ToMegaTherion
19th May 2009, 20:56
You haven't spent enough time on a Thief forum, obviously.

Yaphy
19th May 2009, 20:58
Nope. This is my first time and first week. ;)

randomtaffer
19th May 2009, 23:02
The only major thing would be the mouse and keyboard vs controller. :nut:

Or hardware differences?

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 23:05
You haven't spent enough time on a Thief forum, obviously.
Or a Deus Ex forum.

ToMegaTherion
20th May 2009, 12:54
Or a Deus Ex forum.

I still sometimes shed a tear for the cesspit of pure spite that was the Ion Storm Forum.

Smooogy
20th May 2009, 15:23
PC gaming will always be superior for 3 reasons.

1 - you are up and close with the monitor and can immerse yourself better (even though that is a tired example)

2 - The Mouse and keyboard are superior controls in every sort of game with the exception of fighting games

3 - You can use a great sound system on your PC and get surround sound right in front of you, well, if you have bose speakers :P

Slickleg
20th May 2009, 15:50
But if they changed that so the third person view doesnt screw up the first person view, whould it make any difference?

No, you're right. If they solved the movement problems in 1st person mode I would definitely have no obection including the 3rd person.

I'm not saying take 3rd person out of the game out of spite or because I think it's an ufair advantage that I can't help but use. I was just disappointed about how it comprimised what I feel is the intended way to play the game.

Yaphy
20th May 2009, 16:01
Yeah, me to. It was kinda dull...

Psychomorph
20th May 2009, 16:52
First person. I tried Thief3 in the 3rd person, but it was so unimmersive and boring, I switched back to 1st and never switched back.

Smooogy
20th May 2009, 17:02
In comparison, Thief 3's third person mode was more of a gimmick than a playable option. Assassins Creed, though and inferior game, had a superior way of handling third person gameplay. It locked on to enemies.

Since Thief is about stealth, I don't think having a lock on button would be an intelligent introduction to the serious, and thus, the third person mode will still kind of be a "meh" option rather than an important feature. It definitely shouldn't allow garrett to see past or through areas he wouldn't be able to in first person, because that would defeat the whole purpose of this game.

Nate
20th May 2009, 17:39
LOL, not a single vote for 3rd person only.

So much for modern gamers needing the eye candy of 3rd person.....

Stath MIA
21st May 2009, 01:20
Third person is useless, keep with the traditional FPS (First Person Sneaker)

Vae
29th May 2009, 06:04
First person = Immersion
Third person = Anti-Immersion

So which would you want to have in the most immersively designed game experience in the history of electronic gaming?

Hypevosa
29th May 2009, 06:22
I'll say what I said in the other thread...

Not everyone's a damned cheat, and would use the camera to peer around corners, SOME PEOPLE need to use 3rd person in order to play, because they suffer motion sickness from FPS gaming style. And how SELFISH are you people who would deny them the right to play and enjoy something because they have a physical incapacity that can be simply overcome. Sure, they lose the immersion you all are whining about being so crucial, but it's better than them NOT BEING ABLE TO PLAY IN THE FIRST PLACE. Make a 3rd person camera, but give us the god damned control over it, make it a separate entity from Garrett, so that he doesn't turn when it turns, have it freely rotate around him. Instead severely limit it's scope of vision. Here's my suggestion

using first person it's just like the first 2 games

Using 3rd person you can only see perfectly clearly what you've already seen before, and what you're looking at. Simple (complex) scenario:

Garrett has just exited a large gate and walked down the street to a stone corner. 3rd person camera, you can see clearly everything behind him and in the front of him, except people that are behind him are not visible, only landscape. if you turn the camera to try and look around the corner you see nothing but a severely blurred image (nothing is distinguishable in the mess of mush). However, there are footsteps, and if you look behind Garrett, you see little disturbances in the background where feet are estimated to be, and around the corner, the mush kind of waves with every footstep, meaning simply that there's sound coming from around that corner. As you slowly edge the corner, it all unblurs and becomes clear, and you quickly back up because of the guard that is in the middle of the street. Now that you know his position, when you look around the corner, you see waves, but instead of just being where the guard is, there's a general area of about 5 feet where sound waves appear, and they extend until they reach a substance that makes a different sound. So the guard walks away, and a little 5 foot circle moves that direction, stopping at metal grating for a bridge. When the guard finally walks on that bridge, a wide sound mark is accross the threshold of the bridge, and slowly extends as he walks across until it's a little deeper. Garrett then turns the corner estimating the guard went straight across the bridge, only to find that the guard instead took a turn and is now just looking over the edge of it (which is not the center of, but still within the radius of the sound lines made.

Do you understand what I'm saying? Hell, if this idea was used correctly, even the hearing impaired could at least attempt to play the game in 3rd person due to the sound wave thing.

Anyways, MAKE BOTH so we can ALL enjoy thief, just make 3rd person a camera that moves around, and doesn't affect Garrett's movement at all. And no click to go here controls either...

GmanPro
29th May 2009, 06:31
I dunno man. Jamming third person into the game so that a handful of players can play the game whilst the other 99% of players get stuck with a hampered first person?

So long as its done properly (as in NOT how TDS handled it), then sure. Why not. But honestly, I don't see how playing a game with a third person camera helps alleviate motion sickness symptoms.

Hypevosa
29th May 2009, 06:41
I'm just refering to someone else's post who said they could ONLY play TDS because it was 3rd person, and first person made them ill. If you've played mirrors edge, they actually inserted that blue dot into the middle of the screen to give you a focus point so people who normally got sick from it wouldn't. I don't want a blue dot in thief XD.

But the reason (I assume) is that the game is immersive enough in any good First person perspective that your mind assumes it's you, and is terribly confused because your ears are not detecting any actual motion on your part, though your eyes are saying you're moving. Same reason why looking out a car window can make someone motion sick, because the data from your eyes conflicts with the data from your ears... I don't know how exactly it works, but that's how I understand it at least.

Vae
29th May 2009, 08:09
I dunno man. Jamming third person into the game so that a handful of players can play the game whilst the other 99% of players get stuck with a hampered first person?

So long as its done properly (as in NOT how TDS handled it), then sure. Why not. But honestly, I don't see how playing a game with a third person camera helps alleviate motion sickness symptoms.

I agree if it can properly be done. It's just that the fear I have by saying I want both brings up the possibilty that THIEF IV might be compromised in first person. So unless the devs promise that they won't do that (which they won't) I have to say first person only in order to not encourage that possibility. My symapthys to those few who have issues with motion sickness, but this is THIEF, and it is too precious to take any chances.

Platinumoxicity
29th May 2009, 08:36
Actually I don't care whether there is a 3rd person option or not. It can be made well if they even try. Ion Storm prioritized the 3rd person and playtesters probably played it mostly on 3rd person to see if they'd got that right, because they made a 3rd person mode in a sequel of a 1st person sneaker.

For example, Jedi Knight : Dark Forces 2 was released a year before Thief: The Dark Project and it had perfect first- and third person modes. How's that possible? There was absolutely nothing wrong with the third person mode, and the first- and third person modes had completely separate animations to thank for that. Dark Forces was an FPS, so when in the sequel they wanted to implement 3rd person because of the sword combat system, they first made sure that the 1st person worked flawlessly and started working on 3rd person after that without letting it affect the 1st person mode in any way.

I don't understand how there can be anything hard in making separate animations for both view modes? They're both completely isolated systems if done right. TDS had a player model, and a camera behind it. They had a button that causes the camera to stick firmly to the 3rd person character model. There were no 1st person and 3rd person in TDS. There were only 3rd person- and 3rd person modes each with the camera placed differently.

jay pettitt
29th May 2009, 10:18
The problem, as I understand it, is that 3rd person isn't free. Obviously there's a bunch of additional character animations needed, but you also need to make sure everything looks cool and coherent from the third person - climbing and sword play for example - which I suspect is wildly different to getting things to look cool from the 1st person. Also there are a bunch of gameplay and level design considerations (check out the section on scale (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/2992/gdc_2002_realistic_level_design_.php?page=2) for example ~ ever wondered why the sense of scale in DS seemed strangely unnatural?) related to perspective choice that are not wholly insignificant.

So while it might seem desirable to be as broadly accommodating as possible, you risk taking resources that might be better spent on other parts of the development and then ending up with something that is fundamentally compromised. I do wonder how much effort it took to implement the perspective switching in T3 which, while interesting what with the body awareness and all, ended up being neither ideal in 1st or 3rd person; I suspect it was quite a lot.

I hope it's pretty clear to the developers that people are primarily rooting for first person, and that games like Mirror's Edge give them the confidence to push for that perspective on console. If it were up to me I'd only implement a 3rd person option if (and it's a big 'if') it didn't detract from 1st person. I'm sure the guys and girls at EM know far more about the feasibility of such things than I do, but I hope they don't feel compelled to allow for both perspectives just on the basis that it was done that way in Deadly Shadows.


Not everyone's a damned cheat, and would use the camera to peer around corners, SOME PEOPLE need to use 3rd person in order to play, because they suffer motion sickness from FPS gaming style.

I don't think cheating came into it. Leaning was sufficiently broken in Deadly Shadows that it often wasn't possible to peek around corners without switching views. I read somewhere that motion sickness in first person games can be reduced by providing a reticule on a fixed point of the screen - I'd have thought this could be an option developers could implement with minimal effort.

kin
29th May 2009, 11:39
There is another important thing also. First person is the only realistic choice of view.
Dark messiah for example had even the cutscenes in first person. A full adventure without seeing yourself at all. Just as it would be if you where living it. Not being able to see yourself is 50% of the mystery. Remember T1-T2 cutscenes and tell me where you could see Garrett’s face clearly without being half hidden in shadow. Actually this is a tactic LG used in thief games to add atmosphere and mystery.
Third person destroys that 50% instantly even by existing as an option IMO.

Platinumoxicity
29th May 2009, 12:17
There is another important thing also. First person is the only realistic choice of view.
Dark messiah for example had even the cutscenes in first person. A full adventure without seeing yourself at all. Just as it would be if you where living it. Not being able to see yourself is 50% of the mystery. Remember T1-T2 cutscenes and tell me where you could see Garrett’s face clearly without being half hidden in shadow. Actually this is a tactic LG used in thief games to add atmosphere and mystery.
Third person destroys that 50% instantly even by existing as an option IMO.

They also used that tactic when they made the Garrett in the box art of Thief Gold, the box art of Thief 2 and in various other artworks in the series look very different from eachother. ;)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
29th May 2009, 14:26
Looks like 'First Person' is the favourite choice in this particular poll. :)

Knight
31st May 2009, 21:26
Both would be good, cuse when some1 loves 3rd person view, then hes playing in 3rd, and when he loves 1st view, he plays in 1st. But.. in 3rd is the game easyer, cuse we can see the enemy behind from a wall, and the most people want use the easyer things, so im not sure that both. I think that would be good, when we start the game, we can choose what we want: 3rd or 1st view, or something like that. And when i choose 1st view, but i wanna see Garrets face, i need just to press mouse 3 and i see him from front, like in Oblivion. But the 1st view is good idea too, cuse we dont know what is in the next corner, and the game is more exciting. I dont know.:)

AbysmalGale
1st Jun 2009, 11:48
1st person ONLY! No question about it. Thief is all about the 1st person experience!!!

Knight
6th Jun 2009, 19:24
Yeah i was thinking and first person is better... In 3rd Garrett lost his mysteriousness, and the game is not so exciting.

Shadow Blade
7th Jun 2009, 11:53
If both could be done properly I wouldnt mind but for myself Id prefer first person purely because its more exciting. Id stick to one view because atleast then you dont have to worry about the images bugging out as much. if they focus on one view they can put all their resources into that view and get great visuals that arent buggy instead of splitting their resources (lets just say by half) and achieve 2 views that have average quality and are buggy. Also if they do make it strictly first person they clould do what mirrors edge did (for the motion sickness) with the blue dot and just give players the option to turn it on or off. Besides It cant be that time consuming to go to the options menu once and turn off the setting once for your profile can it?

clock12345
7th Jun 2009, 12:34
i think both i have an idea for this listen: at the beggining of the game you can chose to have 3rd person or 1rd person if you chose one you will continue with it for all along the game you cant chose views since u already chosed at the beggining of the game. i think it should be like that

Platinumoxicity
7th Jun 2009, 19:22
Why is it that the defenders of 1st person have to make these very long explanations to point out why 1st person is so good, but we don't hear that from the defenders of 3rd person?

So, questions for 3rdperson defenders:

-How is the 3rd person better than the 1st person?
-Why do you personally prefer to play using 3rd person?

Wrong answer example: 3rd person gives you better control over your movements (No, you just suck at playing:rasp:)

Hypevosa
7th Jun 2009, 19:55
3rd person is just better to them, they may enjoy separating themselves from the character, they may enjoy getting a larger picture of the world around them, they may like looking at their character, they may get a kind of god complex like people do playing the sims, they may like the ability to look around corners without exposing themselves. Maybe it's because they make him do things they would never want to do, and first person makes it too immersive from that standpoint.

The best reason I think to include it, as I've already pointed out, is some people need it in order to not get motion sickness. A reduced headbob is not a simple solution. It also has to do with field of view (which is normally 90 degrees in FPS' when it's really 120 degrees in normal life, and it makes some people ill). It also has to do with immersion, and the fact that their eyes say that they are moving, but their ears tell them that they aren't, and the body reacts with a sense of nausea (obviously not all people suffer from this). 3rd person is the only thing that fixes all these problems instantly. Unless you get a machine that straps around their head and blows the air gently past their ears to simulate which direction they're going, but that would only work theoretically.

Really, as long as the 3rd person view just becomes a camera and doesn't interfere with the first person perspective of gameplay, it shouldn't really matter to the rest of us. I think it's better to sell to these people, and let them actually experience thief 4 period, instead of them not experiencing it at all.

Vae
7th Jun 2009, 19:58
We should focus on more productive conversations.

3rd person = NO + NEVER
1st person = YES

There's better ways to spend our energy.

Crypto
7th Jun 2009, 19:59
First person only. I don't care what anyone says about freedom of choice. It's like demanding that Gears of War include a first person mode.

If you're playing Thief in the third person, you're playing it wrong. If you want third person, go play Splinter Cell. The first person is crucial to Thief mechanics (e.g., you can't cheat the camera around a corner) and immersion.


Not everyone's a damned cheat, and would use the camera to peer around corners
When playing TDS in third person (I simply couldn't play it in first without horrific lag), I did this without even intending it. Sometimes it's hard to avoid. And honestly, I came to prefer it to the pathetically choppy lean-that-wasn't-really-lean animation.


3rd person is just better to them, they may enjoy separating themselves from the character, they may enjoy getting a larger picture of the world around them, they may like looking at their character, they may get a kind of god complex like people do playing the sims, they may like the ability to look around corners without exposing themselves.
Yup. All of this is directly contrary to the concept of first-person stealth.


Unless you get a machine that straps around their head and blows the air gently past their ears to simulate which direction they're going, but that would only work theoretically.
Set up a fan. :p

As for the notion that the third person would help draw in more gamers, I don't know if this is true or not, but it's disgusting. These people aren't going to buy a game because it doesn't include third? REALLY?

Nate
7th Jun 2009, 20:01
I think most of those who support 3rd person like how easy it makes the game for looking around corners without exposing yourself....my suggestion for them is that if you like to cheat at games, just play Thief 4 with a mod that makes Garrett invisible and untouchable.

Crypto
7th Jun 2009, 20:06
I think most of those who support 3rd person like how easy it makes the game for looking around corners without exposing yourself....my suggestion for them is that if you like to cheat at games, just play Thief 4 with a mod that makes Garrett invisible and untouchable.

They already have it in TDS. It's called wall hug. Climbing gloves are of course a viable alternative in later stages.

Hypevosa
7th Jun 2009, 20:24
As for the notion that the third person would help draw in more gamers, I don't know if this is true or not, but it's disgusting. These people aren't going to buy a game because it doesn't include third? REALLY?

If you knew that playing in first person perspective actually made you physically ill and vomit, would you buy FPS games?

Crypto
7th Jun 2009, 20:36
If you knew that playing in first person perspective actually made you physically ill and vomit, would you buy FPS games?
Yes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-injury)

Why don't they just include an option to remove head-bobbing?

Vae
7th Jun 2009, 20:36
They already have it in TDS. It's called wall hug.

Don't you just love that "magically invisible hug", I sure do, almost as much the "magically silenced crouch", which allows you to run over any surface without making a sound.

Crypto
7th Jun 2009, 20:46
Don't you just love that "magically invisible hug", I sure do, almost as much the "magically silenced crouch", which allows you to run over any surface without making a sound.

:lol:

Hypevosa
7th Jun 2009, 20:49
Why don't they just include an option to remove head-bobbing?

Because it's not JUST headbobing that causes the problem

Field of view in FPS's tends to be 90 degrees, when in real life it's 120 degrees. This causes some people to become ill due to the angles presented. So make FOV 120 degrees like in real life. That group is fixed (but they won't know it unless you advertise it, and chances are you wouldn't so they wouldn't buy it).

Also, the sense of immersion can cause people who normally get motion sickness in cars and boats to go off. Your eyes say your moving, but your ears say you aren't because there's no airflow in the correct directions. Your brain becomes confused, and you get nausea. A device that would monitor movements in the game and blow air accordingly at your ears could fix this, but it doesn't exist yet that I know of, and it would only theoretically work.

3rd person eliminates all the problems that cause motion sickness in one fell swoop. If it's just a camera that doesn't hurt first person players, it shouldn't matter to us, and would be a selling point for the game for those who are otherwise rendered ill by FPS's.

Crypto
7th Jun 2009, 20:58
Okay, so according to your argument, Call of Duty, Team Fortress, Half-Life, and every other major FPS franchise should include an option for third person. From a financial viewpoint, those games have proved it won't make or break a game. From a common good viewpoint, I'm stumped. I really don't like it, and I'm worried that it will damage first-person aspects. If Eidos Montreal can pull it off, then by all means they should, but I don't want to encourage too much work.

Deathologist
7th Jun 2009, 21:00
First person. Third person should really only be used in MMO's IMO

Vae
7th Jun 2009, 21:05
Just use the "motion sickness dot" as an option, and forget about 3rd person.

Hypevosa
7th Jun 2009, 21:22
Okay, so according to your argument, Call of Duty, Team Fortress, Half-Life, and every other major FPS franchise should include an option for third person. From a financial viewpoint, those games have proved it won't make or break a game. From a common good viewpoint, I'm stumped. I really don't like it, and I'm worried that it will damage first-person aspects. If Eidos Montreal can pull it off, then by all means they should, but I don't want to encourage too much work.

I'm not arguing it would break the game, only that it would allow more people to experience it. Which is my ultimate goal making the argument. Extra money is good for the company as well, but thief to me is an experience that every gamer should have, and 3rd person would allow more to have it (even if it's not as "pure" as the first person experience). It shouldn't cost us an entire level of thief 4 just to implement a 3rd person camera I would hope.

EDIT: Hehe, the mirror's edge motion sickness dot... It would certainly break immersion a bit, and gives a focal point. I don't know if that is a panacea like 3rd person camera or not though. They should do a study :D

Vae
7th Jun 2009, 21:25
EM, please ignore Hypevosa. Thanks.

Hypevosa
7th Jun 2009, 21:32
EM, please ignore Hypevosa. Thanks.

now that's just mean and uncalled for. What's so wrong about conducting a study on the motion sickness dot to see if it really works well for people who suffer from FPS motion sickness?

Vae
7th Jun 2009, 21:40
Hypevosa, you know what I mean. Stop :mad2: your head against :mad2:. I wasn't refering to the edit you made.

razorstealth
7th Jun 2009, 22:30
I loved 3rd person view in TDS!! The ability to slide along a wall and camera around a corner without the need to expose yourself to the enemies is part of the magical art of the unseen that Garret is such a master at. And getting to watch him blackjack people is so much more satisfying in 3rd person. 1st person was also great when using items, picking locks and just close ups on the enemies. The lighting dynamics of Garret cant be seen in 1st person other than with the gem. Maybe a compromise of no light gem in 3rd person but one in 1st would work?

Nate
7th Jun 2009, 22:55
Unfortunately, the game will probably sell more copies with 3rd person view included...even if it takes dev effort away from more important areas of the game.

Personally, I still think 3rd person is a waste of time and effort. I'd rather have an amazing game in 1rst person only, than an okay game that has both 1rst and 3rd person view.

Zahr Dalsk
7th Jun 2009, 23:48
Poll questions are biased, but I agree with them. First person only - third person did really mess up movement in first person.

Nate
7th Jun 2009, 23:52
I loved 3rd person view in TDS!! The ability to slide along a wall and camera around a corner without the need to expose yourself to the enemies is part of the magical art of the unseen that Garret is such a master at. And getting to watch him blackjack people is so much more satisfying in 3rd person. 1st person was also great when using items, picking locks and just close ups on the enemies. The lighting dynamics of Garret cant be seen in 1st person other than with the gem. Maybe a compromise of no light gem in 3rd person but one in 1st would work?

The sad part is that he doesn't even understand what is so bad with his comment.

The game shouldn't allow cheats like 3rd person viewing around corners.

I'll tell you what. For all the guys who want 3rd person so they can cheat, the devs could make a game option that makes Garrett invisible, invincible, perfectly quiet and all locks open instantly....wouldn't that be the best way to put people in the shoes of Garrett 'Master Thief'?

kin
8th Jun 2009, 05:09
Real life is played in first person only so keep the game realistic EM.;)

Moon Hoplite
8th Jun 2009, 12:32
1st person.... needless to say, i mean look at thief 3, it's game mechanics and engine is a mess...

razorstealth
11th Jun 2009, 15:59
The sad part is that he doesn't even understand what is so bad with his comment.

The game shouldn't allow cheats like 3rd person viewing around corners.

I'll tell you what. For all the guys who want 3rd person so they can cheat, the devs could make a game option that makes Garrett invisible, invincible, perfectly quiet and all locks open instantly....wouldn't that be the best way to put people in the shoes of Garrett 'Master Thief'?

By this logic I say we get rid of everything except for the Blackjack and water arrows, since 1. i'm obviously the only one that matters (sarcasm) and 2. thats really all you NEED in Thief. 3rd person is simply another tool. One that immerses you more in the game and gives you better character identification. Until TDS how many of us really knew How Garrett moved or in any sort of detail what he looks like? And being able to see around corners is no different than being able to THROW YOUR EYEBALL around. Sorry nostalgic "hardcores" the future isnt just about you.

AbysmalGale
11th Jun 2009, 16:22
I loved 3rd person view in TDS!! The ability to slide along a wall and camera around a corner without the need to expose yourself to the enemies is part of the magical art of the unseen that Garret is such a master at.

Ehm... Is this comment a joke? That's one of the things I hated most about 3rd person. The fact that one actually was able to cheat like that. You don't really seem to get the point of the game?

hexhunter
11th Jun 2009, 16:40
Cheating in single player? You can't, judging others on things which don't effect you, I never liked that approach, live and let live is surely better than live and, no you can't have that cos I don't want it...

1st person should be default, PC, console, it doesn't matter, but I wouldn't really want to prevent others from playing how they want on lower difficulties.

AbysmalGale
11th Jun 2009, 17:13
Cheating in single player? You can't, judging others on things which don't effect you, I never liked that approach, live and let live is surely better than live and, no you can't have that cos I don't want it...

1st person should be default, PC, console, it doesn't matter, but I wouldn't really want to prevent others from playing how they want on lower difficulties.

Single player doesn't have anything to do with it. Cheating is cheating, single or multiplayer, doesn't matter. You don't consider installing a trainer in Thief cheating? Or cheating in a test in real life isn't really cheating because it's your own race?

Nate
11th Jun 2009, 19:15
By this logic I say we get rid of everything except for the Blackjack and water arrows, since 1. i'm obviously the only one that matters (sarcasm) and 2. thats really all you NEED in Thief. 3rd person is simply another tool. One that immerses you more in the game and gives you better character identification. Until TDS how many of us really knew How Garrett moved or in any sort of detail what he looks like? And being able to see around corners is no different than being able to THROW YOUR EYEBALL around. Sorry nostalgic "hardcores" the future isnt just about you.

Well, you got me on the eyeball thing (not that I've ever used it that way).

Still, 3rd person looking around corners is 'cheating'....but that really isn't the problem.

3rd person = a lot of time developing instead of that time being used on more important things (like the story, controls, engine, maps).

kaekaelyn
12th Jun 2009, 04:27
I first learned about Thief from a CD of Eidos game demos. Most of the other games were your run-of-the-mill violent games, but when I tried Thief, it was something completely different than what I expected. It was fresh, and it was new. Part of that shock came from the fact that it LOOKED like a first-person shooter, but it offered something I had never seen before: stealth gameplay. The first person point of view is part of what sets Thief apart, and even though I have to admit I used third person sometimes while playing TDS, it was just a novelty and I don't really want it to come back.

It probably will, though, so if we're going to have third person, let's just make sure that the first person view keeps it simple, big brown block with a face style, right? I didn't really find the TDS first person view controls/responsiveness too painful, but I know a lot of people did, so I think there should be changes there.

By the way, I never used third person view to cheat. I didn't even think of it.

kin
12th Jun 2009, 04:40
If we MUST have third-person, then fix the camera above and behind like third-person used to be--non-revolving, non-arcing, and always in the same place relative to the PC's head
The problem is that the 3rd person camera would have a hard time fitting in tight places (thief has plenty or should have). Remember playing Tomb raider (don't remember which one) and I was standing in a wall (back facing wall) trying to see what’s the other side. The camera flipped right, left and up, down all the time not letting me to control it and point it where I wanted. It was so annoying that I stopped playing the game and didn't touch another tomb raider title again due to 3rd person.n.


--and disallow the cheat of looking around corners and into spaces above.

Well that's almost first person:) So why bother making a 3rd person

Vasquez
12th Jun 2009, 07:35
Argh, I just woke up and after only 2 cups of coffee in my cross-eyed grogginess voted "3rd person only". So, no, it's not a troll or a joker, just a stupid old me :nut:

(Obviously I meant First person only, can my vote be fixed plz)

jay pettitt
12th Jun 2009, 08:27
Ban him.

AbysmalGale
12th Jun 2009, 08:34
By the way, I never used first person view to cheat. I didn't even think of it.

You meant 3rd person, right? ;)

Platinumoxicity
12th Jun 2009, 10:07
A solution to 3rd person cheat problem:

Make the 3rd person camera visible to the enemies so that you need to keep it hidden just like you keep yourself! :nut:

AbysmalGale
12th Jun 2009, 10:55
A solution to 3rd person cheat problem:

Make the 3rd person camera visible to the enemies so that you need to keep it hidden just like you keep yourself! :nut:

Actually that would be just fair I think, even though it probably would make 3rd person fans extremely annoyed ;)

ToMegaTherion
12th Jun 2009, 11:20
If we can lean around corners in first person while retaining the shadow cover of where our feet are, like in Dark Project and Metal Age, then both views have similar cheats and everything is OK :)

AbysmalGale
12th Jun 2009, 12:21
If we can lean around corners in first person while retaining the shadow cover of where our feet are, like in Dark Project and Metal Age, then both views have similar cheats and everything is OK :)

The difference is that in TDP and TMA you did not stay unseen when leaning over a corner, if there was a light source just around it. When 3rd person cheating in TDS, light sources did not have any effect. So everything is not OK if you ask me ;)

kin
12th Jun 2009, 12:38
A solution to 3rd person cheat problem:

Make the 3rd person camera visible to the enemies so that you need to keep it hidden just like you keep yourself!
I hope you are joking.

kaekaelyn
12th Jun 2009, 13:05
I said "third person"! I have no idea what you're talking about. :whistle:

ToMegaTherion
12th Jun 2009, 15:38
The difference is that in TDP and TMA you did not stay unseen when leaning over a corner, if there was a light source just around it.

Yes you did!

Platinumoxicity
12th Jun 2009, 16:26
I hope you are joking.

Yes, I was. This feature would only be there to piss off 3rd person players, so they'd have to switch to 1st person ;).

AbysmalGale
12th Jun 2009, 16:37
Yes you did!

Ok, if that is the case: my mistake! As I remembered it, the light gem would light up slightly if the area was well lit, but then again it was some time ago since I last played TMA.

Platinumoxicity
12th Jun 2009, 16:51
Ok, if that is the case: my mistake! As I remembered it, the light gem would light up slightly if the area was well lit, but then again it was some time ago since I last played TMA.

Actually, the leaning does affect your visibility in T1 and T2, but only if the place you're standing in is not completely dark. If you're standing in a place that's pitch black, leaning most likely doesn't affect your visiblity, but even that's not always the case.

So no, the leaning in T1 and T2 is not equivalent to the 3rd person cheating in TDS.

AbysmalGale
12th Jun 2009, 17:05
Actually, the leaning does affect your visibility in T1 and T2, but only if the place you're standing in is not completely dark. If you're standing in a place that's pitch black, leaning most likely doesn't affect your visiblity, but even that's not always the case.

So no, the leaning in T1 and T2 is not equivalent to the 3rd person cheating in TDS.

Ok, thanks for the redress Platinumoxicity! :) That was kind of what I thought.

ToMegaTherion
12th Jun 2009, 17:57
Sometimes the leaning went quite mad and flung me round the corner entirely.

Nothke
12th Jun 2009, 20:00
ONLY FIRST PERSON. I taught about it for a long time, but now I am re-playing Metal Age, and the first person rocks!!!

I just always used 3rd person in TDS for cheating around corners... and leaning is waaaay better.

and another reason, it will resemble assassins creed and oblivion/morrowind so much that it won't be considered unique, but just copy of these with a little difference... most of gamers would say... aaah, assassins creed is better, why did I pay for this stupid game??

Nate
12th Jun 2009, 22:36
Exactly, why put in gimmicks like 3rd person when they could just make the story, maps and gameplay rock instead?

Crypto
15th Jun 2009, 00:43
exactly, why put in gimmicks like 3rd person when they could just make the story, maps and gameplay rock instead?

Because people will PUKE all over their screens you insolent whelp!

Nate
15th Jun 2009, 01:05
Because people will PUKE all over their screens you insolent whelp!

Yes, I am sure thousands of gamers puked all over their screens and keyboards while playing the first 2 Thief games. The massive number of ill gamers is the reason the first 2 Thief games are universally regarded as total failures....:rolleyes:

I mean, if you want 3rd person view because you want it, then simply say so. But let's drop the bullcrap arguments meant to 'sway' the devs into implementing features you personally want in the game.

MasterTaffer
15th Jun 2009, 01:25
I havn't seen the term "whelp" used in a thread in a long time. That made my day. :D

Nate
15th Jun 2009, 01:45
What makes my day is the fact that the vast majority of voters want 1rst person only view for Thi4f.

Hypevosa
15th Jun 2009, 01:48
I havn't seen the term "whelp" used in a thread in a long time. That made my day. :D

same here. Look Nate, we understand the paladin like stance you've taken against everything new to the original thief games, we all love the series and that is why we're here. People don't make up being sick when they play a first person view game, it would be stupid and childish, there are thousands out there who legitimately get nausea from it. Whether it's headbob, 90 degree field of view, not having a focal point, or being so immersed they get a kind of motion sickness from it, people get sick in first person views, and have a legitimate reason for wanting thief to have a 3rd person camera. I would never use it, but I know that a good number of people NEED to use it. They don't want to get sick playing a game, and they want to play thief 4... isn't that a good thing? I actually saw someone prescribe a drug for someone who complained about it, and I don't think we should expect people to drug themselves just to play a game.

EDIT: At the very least I guess, if they make it 1st person only... they need to have a slide to remove headbob, they need to set the field of view to 120 degrees (the real field of view) and have the option for a crosshair in the middle of the screen that provides a focal point. That will solve 90% of the first person view sickness, that way alot of people can still play it. The problem would be that those people who think that FPS's make them sick would not buy the game still because they wouldn't know those options were there to help them... unless they put it on the back of the box (Options to help those with FPS sickness) XD

Nate
15th Jun 2009, 02:08
I'm not against everything new. For instance, I STRONGLY support guards waking up from BJ and gas, I'd like to see game options that put a greater limit on the amount of arrows and equipment Garrett can carry, and I somewhat support players having a choice between short sword or dagger (both with advantages/disadvantages). All of those concepts have Thief purists going into convulsions.

I am just against concepts that take devs a lot of time to develop at the expense of the core game (or that go against the concept of Thief gameplay). These concepts include 3rd person view, the City Hub, and RPG/Upgrade type gameplay.

I am presently on the fence concerning multiplayer....takes a good bit of time to do properly, for what might not be a lot of reward.

Hypevosa
15th Jun 2009, 02:37
3rd person would just be a panacea for all those problems... like I said in my edit though, at the very least they can have a slider for headbob, put FOV to 120 degrees, and have the option for a reticle or crosshair for those who need a focal point. It probably would fix nearly all the things that make people sick when they play FPS. If it's more or less time to do that, probably less. It would be the more surgical approach than shotgun approach that 3rd person camera would be. I still wonder what percentage would still get sick though... and you'd still have to advertise that it has features to allow those who normally get sick to not get sick.

Nate
15th Jun 2009, 03:32
Well, I can certainly agree with those suggestions! Well done!

Crypto
15th Jun 2009, 11:01
I mean, if you want 3rd person view because you want it, then simply say so. But let's drop the bullcrap arguments meant to 'sway' the devs into implementing features you personally want in the game.

I was being sarcastic. I agree with you 100%.

Nate
15th Jun 2009, 12:47
I was being sarcastic. I agree with you 100%.

Lol! Sorry Crypto, I thought you were supporting 3rd person view. Glad to see we are both against 3rd person.

Platinumoxicity
15th Jun 2009, 13:05
You know how Half-Life 2 has cars and a boat that you can drive? The games in that series never even think about going out of 1st person. The devs designed the vehicles so that you can see the ground or water through the floor while you drive and that seemed to remove the last remaining instances of the motion sickness problem. Now how can a game that strictly stays in 1st person and even offers high-speed 1st person driving scenes be able to be played without those getting sick who suffer from motion sickness? How is that possible?

It's the crosshair. There is constantly a crosshair consisting of 5 white dots in the middle of the screen. Half-Life has proven that motion-sick people can play 1st person action games without any problems.
http://filesmelt.com/Imagehosting/pics/f483d0176813ec280b614f054879ada3.PNG

kin
15th Jun 2009, 17:25
I agree that there is no problem in first person from motion sickness lets not make another poll "if thief should be made with a crosshair or not..." I would rather to leave something for the devs to think about:D

kin
15th Jun 2009, 18:16
The gem works just fine.

Hypevosa
15th Jun 2009, 22:23
The cross hair/reticule provide a focus in the center of the screen, which is what's important. As I put in a past post, a slide to reduce headbob (causes alot of sickness), a field of view of 120 degrees instead of 90 (causes some sickness), and a crosshair/reticule (gives focal point, allowing more to play) would probably allow the vast majority who would otherwise get sick to play. It's a more surgical approach than the shotgun that 3rd person would be.

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 00:07
I think it's just the fact that the hud isn't the center of the screen, which is where the player tends to be looking anyways... the hud becomes a peripheral more than a focus

Nate
16th Jun 2009, 05:09
IF the devs DON'T include 3rd person OR multiplayer, they'll be able to totally bypass making body physics and graphics for Garrett. In fact, they'll be able to go back to the original happy face on a stick for Garrett.

Imagine the time/$ they would save by doing this!

Of course, don't know what they'll do for mirrors and reflections in the game....hehe, it would be great to see Garrett, the happy stickman in them.

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 05:11
Garrett doesn't have a reflection... THAT'S how sneaky he is... even the mirror doesn't know he's there >_>

CaptainObvious
16th Jun 2009, 18:20
Well obviously I'd play first person, but I wouldn't mind having 3rd person included as option if others enjoy it and it has a broader market appeal then. I never had any problems with 1st person view in DS after getting used to it.

It's not like anyone is forcing you at gunpoint to play with 3rd person view or something.

jermi
16th Jun 2009, 18:38
Well obviously ...You're not going to start all of your posts with that, are you?

AbysmalGale
16th Jun 2009, 18:48
I kind of think it's dishonoring the First Person Sneaker-concept to even have the 3rd person option. There are tons of games out there that come ONLY in 3rd person. Why can't Thief 4 do the same, but with 1st person only? I just can't understand why people would want to break the immersion of such a brilliant and atmospheric game like Thief. I mean, think about it: It was MADE to be a game where you are INSIDE the characters mind. This is about principles, kind of. And obviously also about 3rd person view ruining the 1st person view movement ability, as in TDS.

Many ask "what's the problem with having both? Everyone will be happy". Well, what if we were given the option to have Garrett carrying a machine gun in each mission. Only if we WANT to choose it of course. That option would make many a taffer really upset, even though one is not forced to carry the weapon. It's kind of the same with 3rd person (even though the example was a bit exaggerated.) Principles!

Crypto
16th Jun 2009, 19:05
Imagine the time/$ they would save by doing this!
And imagine all the stupid gamers who will somehow find a way to piss and moan about not getting to see Garrett's arms or chest (which, by the way, looked more like boobs in TDS). Or his gear! WTF I'VE BEATEN 20 MISSIONS AND I WANT TO SEE MY GEAR! GIVE ME A VANITY SHOT NAO!

Platinumoxicity
16th Jun 2009, 19:52
It's possible and a better option to make the 1st person system and 3rd person system completely separate like, for example, in every dual-mode game besides TDS. It only makes the development process a bit longer. Making the game only 1st person is the laziest but also the best option. The second laziest, and the very worst option is making a 1st person mode out of the 3rd person mode by putting the camera inside the 3rd person model and it does not work.

Body awareness can be made right:
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/7650/bawaret.png

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 21:07
one of the issues with TDS though was movement which was made wierd by the fact that the camera turned and the body didn't, making fine movement like navigating beams difficult. So shouldn't that camera for the guy's head be fixed, so the entire body pivots around the center when the camera moves (like in TMA)

Platinumoxicity
16th Jun 2009, 21:36
one of the issues with TDS though was movement which was made wierd by the fact that the camera turned and the body didn't, making fine movement like navigating beams difficult. So shouldn't that camera for the guy's head be fixed, so the entire body pivots around the center when the camera moves (like in TMA)

In my suggestion, the camera is entirely separate from the model's animations, they only move with the camera. Basically, if you take away the model, you have T2's movements. ;)
The model analyses the surface and determines how high the legs should be placed, for example when moving up or down stairways. Also, when you get close to a wall, the model goes to the face-hug position, but it doesn't affect the movement of the camera. Also when you go next to a wall and for example lean to see around a corner, you can see the model's hand on the wall. The body awareness in mirror's edge is very much like this except in this system the player controls the camera, not the model, just like in T2. The model only moves according to the player's input.

Myth
17th Jun 2009, 20:18
Am i the only one that likes the old games' way of not showing a body at all. And only a player arm when a weapon is drawn?

Platinumoxicity
17th Jun 2009, 20:21
Am i the only one that likes the old games' way of not showing a body at all. And only a player arm when a weapon is drawn?

That's very normal, yes, but it doesn't hurt to have the legs visible when it doesn't affect the movement. They did this correctly in FEAR and TCoR - AoDA. It's not impossible, like in TDS, to make it well today.

Hypevosa
17th Jun 2009, 20:22
idk... to me it gave me a perception more of where my feet were if I needed it, and it felt more immersive to me. If they put this on natal they should go back to seeing nothing, because you're the controller, so you're garrett... but if not, I think alot of people enjoyed seeing the character model.

Nate
17th Jun 2009, 20:42
Yeah, I really didn't like how Garrett was 'sluggish' to respond to directions....made me die a lot from falls for NO REASON!

Hypevosa
17th Jun 2009, 20:52
Agreed... in the old games, couldn't you just barely start falling and still jump off a ledge? kindof a way of letting you get away with not knowing exactly where your feet are?

Crypto
17th Jun 2009, 21:28
Garrett's a master thief; he doesn't need feet.

Vae
17th Jun 2009, 21:35
I agree, no need to alter what was done in T1/T2. I really felt integrated with mind/character control and this added to the overall immersion, as I was not continually reminded (T3 ) that I was controlling something that wasn't "me".

Hypevosa
17th Jun 2009, 23:43
I see my arms typing and still feel it's me O.o... maybe I'm wierd....

Hypevosa
17th Jun 2009, 23:51
it depends on if they FORCE me to look at him...

Thinking about it a little more I'd rather not have the feets, because I can at least imagine he's running the way I want him to, and jumping the way I want him to.

The arms I don't mind so much, and neither would I mind seeing the cloak woosh in front of me if I was running really fast and stopped or something, but I don't want to see my feets anymore... This way we also don't have garrett somehow standing with his foot on nothing.

jtr7
17th Jun 2009, 23:59
What could be added is the swish of fabric as well as the boots. How many channels of sound can a modern game mix?

BrendaEM
18th Jun 2009, 14:11
I didn't vote; my option wasn't listed. I want a first person, but I liked seeing the character hards, and weapons. Doing soe, I never needed an indicator to know what I carried.

kin
18th Jun 2009, 14:33
I didn't vote; my option wasn't listed. I want a first person, but I liked seeing the character hards, and weapons. Doing soe, I never needed an indicator to know what I carried.
That's still first person view isn't it?

Nate
18th Jun 2009, 18:45
Yup, that is first person similar to the first 2 games.

BrendaEM, you should vote for the 1rst person only....it is what you are asking for.

AbysmalGale
18th Jun 2009, 23:42
I didn't vote; my option wasn't listed. I want a first person, but I liked seeing the character hards, and weapons. Doing soe, I never needed an indicator to know what I carried.

As already suggested: vote for first person since that's clearly what you want. What's not first person about your wish?

Otherwise there could be an endless amount of options.

And by the way, you could see the blackjack when equipped in TMA for example: http://www.sharemation.com/IstvanV/thief2.jpg

Nate
19th Jun 2009, 05:24
Since the big reasons for doing away with 3rd person view haven't been mentioned in a while, here they are again:

1) With 3rd person view implementation, the maps are made unrealistically large and open (to make space for the camera view).

2) Perfecting 3rd person view implementation would mean dev time/effort/$ taken from areas where they could be better used (such as missions, AI, story, voice acting, and so on).

AbysmalGale
19th Jun 2009, 22:45
Since the big reasons for doing away with 3rd person view haven't been mentioned in a while, here they are again:

1) With 3rd person view implementation, the maps are made unrealistically large and open (to make space for the camera view).

2) Perfecting 3rd person view implementation would mean dev time/effort/$ taken from areas where they could be better used (such as missions, AI, story, voice acting, and so on).

Really good points, especially number one! That is something that totally disagrees with the idea behind Thief. It violates the gameplay!

kin
20th Jun 2009, 05:10
Taken from ttlg to add to the above as an example. In my opinion it summarises what is bad for 3rd person and why it shouldn't be in the game not even as an option. It is already in another thread but it should be posted here from the beginning.


If the levels are designed for 1st person like Thief 1, you'll see these differences:

For example, the kitchen in "Lord Bafford's manor". The ceiling is so low that 3rd person mode would restrict the player's vision. Also the confined spaces in poor civilians' apartments would have the same problem.

These areas, when designed for 3rd person mode would have high ceilings (Poor people don't have those) and wide open areas with more room between furniture. (No-one would furnish a house like that)

The buildings in T1 and T2 had smaller rooms, hallways and doors because they didn't have to take the 3rd person mode into account. Even the walkways in alleys were more narrow. Everything was designed for humans, not giants


This is so damn serious. I hope the devs have realised that there is no place for third person.
As I said before this is why I hate 3rd person view even simply by existing in game without using it. It is just that the game has to be build accordingly to that view also.

AbysmalGale
20th Jun 2009, 14:39
Taken from ttlg to add to the above as an example. In my opinion it summarises what is bad for 3rd person and why it shouldn't be in the game not even as an option. It is already in another thread but it should be posted here from the beginning.



If the levels are designed for 1st person like Thief 1, you'll see these differences:

For example, the kitchen in "Lord Bafford's manor". The ceiling is so low that 3rd person mode would restrict the player's vision. Also the confined spaces in poor civilians' apartments would have the same problem.

These areas, when designed for 3rd person mode would have high ceilings (Poor people don't have those) and wide open areas with more room between furniture. (No-one would furnish a house like that)

The buildings in T1 and T2 had smaller rooms, hallways and doors because they didn't have to take the 3rd person mode into account. Even the walkways in alleys were more narrow. Everything was designed for humans, not giants

This is so damn serious. I hope the devs have realised that there is no place for third person.
As I said before this is why I hate 3rd person view even simply by existing in game without using it. It is just that the game has to be build accordingly to that view also.

I really hope these excellent points will be taken in consideration by the DEVS! REALLY! These are issues that never really crossed my mind, but would feel extremely annoying when playing the game! :mad2:

These points should almost be brought up in a separate thread, because many/most 3rd person supporters don't realize that a 3rd person view would mess up certain environments in the Thief universe, EVEN if it would be optional to choose either 1st or 3rd.

This has to be made clear to everyone!!!

CaptainObvious
21st Jun 2009, 14:02
Since the big reasons for doing away with 3rd person view haven't been mentioned in a while, here they are again:

1) With 3rd person view implementation, the maps are made unrealistically large and open (to make space for the camera view).

2) Perfecting 3rd person view implementation would mean dev time/effort/$ taken from areas where they could be better used (such as missions, AI, story, voice acting, and so on).

Strangely enough, Thief DS was overally more claustrophobic than the other Thiefs. That was probably mostly due to level design engine limitations than anything else really.

Thief 4 is most probably going to be a crossplatform game, so I think it's a given that it will have 3rd person view. It just shouldn't affect the 1st person view. There are other games that have that too, so I'm optimistic. Thief DS first person view was playable but annoying at times. As far as I remember a week after the release people were already posting modified .cfg files in the IonStorm forums that mostly fixed that. Let's just hope they don't leave patching the game to the fans again, though.

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
12th Aug 2009, 15:39
Hello all !

New to the forums, but a very long time Thief/stealth gaming fan.

I know the purists around here love the First Person, but IMO I've always loved being able to watch the character I'm playing interact with the world around them.

Anyways, obviously being a massive Splinter Cell fan I was very happy to play T: DS in 3rd person, but found that when playing the game this way that the immersion was greatly hindered, as it felt as if the feature was really just tacked on. The animations were sloppy, Garretts interaction with the maps was severely limited and his character model didn't look the greatest either.

I'm sincerely hoping that Garrett / The Thief will be able to full interact with the world and clamber over ledges, shimmy up drain pipes, flatten against walls, clamber up trees, dive into bushes, hang upside down from harnesses to open the highest windows in houses before entering into them etc.. and all with slick character animations!

One of the most impressive things about Splinter Cell Chaos Theory was the slick character animations that were implemented for Sam Fisher's "Closer Than Ever" sneaking, climbing, clambering that all made you feel as if he were two feet away from that very lethal guard.

What's everyone's expectations for 3rd person in the upcoming title?

kin
12th Aug 2009, 15:45
I think this poll shows peoples expectations.
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88579&highlight=person

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
12th Aug 2009, 15:48
I think this poll shows peoples expectations.
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88579&highlight=person


Just found that now! Whoopsies :nut:

Delete please MODS

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
12th Aug 2009, 15:57
::Just said I'd post my opinion here after mis-starting a new thread::

I know the purists around here love the First Person, but IMO I've always loved being able to watch the character I'm playing interact with the world around them. I find it much more enjoyable and satisfying to watch a character model climb up a ladder or shimmy up a pipe rather then just watching my First Person view move up it.

Anyways, obviously being a massive Splinter Cell fan I was very happy to play T: DS in 3rd person, but found that when playing the game this way that the immersion was greatly hindered, as it felt as if the feature was really just tacked on. The animations were sloppy, Garretts interaction with the maps was severely limited and his character model didn't look the greatest either.

I'm sincerely hoping that Garrett / The Thief will be able to full interact with the world and clamber over ledges, shimmy up drain pipes, flatten against walls, clamber up trees, dive into bushes, hang upside down from harnesses to open the highest windows in houses before entering into them etc.. and all with slick character animations!

One of the most impressive things about Splinter Cell Chaos Theory was the slick character animations that were implemented for Sam Fisher's "Closer Than Ever" sneaking, climbing, clambering that all made you feel as if he were two feet away from that very lethal guard.

It is a valid argument though that you ARE Garrett and that you'd like to keep the character shrouded in mystery, but its very easy to keep his face shrouded in shadow with that tasty hood of his ;)

xDarknessFallsx
12th Aug 2009, 16:03
One of the most impressive things about Splinter Cell Chaos Theory was the slick character animations that were implemented for Sam Fisher's "Closer Than Ever" sneaking, climbing, clambering that all made you feel as if he were two feet away from that very lethal guard.
In first person, you'd feel you were one foot away from that very lethal guard.

esme
12th Aug 2009, 16:08
Just found that now! Whoopsies :nut:

Delete please MODS

can new members not delete their own threads ?

if not send a PM to Viktoria (http://forums.eidosgames.com/private.php?do=newpm&u=124337) our much put upon mod and she'll delete it for you if you ask nicely

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
12th Aug 2009, 16:17
In first person, you'd feel you were one foot away from that very lethal guard.

Not really IMO, in First Person I'd feel like I was just looking at a guard from 1 foot away.

I think this:

http://palgn.com.au/media/pics/art_1394_id_1.jpeg

Adds more tension than this:

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20040310/Thief.jpg

And I'm not saying that Splinter Cell adds more tension than Thief here, if anyone thinks that's what I'm trying to do, I'm just saying that I really enjoy watching a bad assed stealthy character model accurately and subtley sneak up on an unwitting guard, rather than just watching my viewpoint get closer.

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
12th Aug 2009, 16:32
can new members not delete their own threads ?

if not send a PM to Viktoria (http://forums.eidosgames.com/private.php?do=newpm&u=124337) our much put upon mod and she'll delete it for you if you ask nicely

If I did have the option its not there now. Ill PM her now

esme
12th Aug 2009, 16:35
should be part of the edit post function if it's there

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
12th Aug 2009, 16:53
I chose first-person on PC. And I used third-person on Xbox.

Why shouldn't users have the choice? Clearly they should.

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
12th Aug 2009, 16:55
I chose first-person on PC. And I used third-person on Xbox.

Why shouldn't users have the choice? Clearly they should.

Very good point. I'd choose third person, but I'd really appreciate having the option and certainly wouldn't want first person-ers to be left out in the cold

Yaphy
12th Aug 2009, 17:13
And please. all new Taffers, show yourself in the Tavern. Its gettin messy with all new people.

ToMegaTherion
12th Aug 2009, 21:11
I am a dedicated first person fan for a more pragmatic reason than most: I find first person view far easier to control.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Aug 2009, 21:52
Just found that now! Whoopsies :nut:

Delete please MODS

Don't worry. :)
I've simply merged as this allows current discussion to remain intact.

Moosemoose
13th Aug 2009, 00:18
I would like to explain my vote. (both views). This is only if they have the (dumb) climbing gloves, or if the engine doesn't allow for you to turn almost 90 degrees when you are on a rope/vine arrow. If they end up doing this though, you can count another vote for fp only.

Secondary
13th Aug 2009, 00:19
Im a big fan of both.

I think that both should be included, if you dont want either one just dont use it.

of course third person has to be vastly improved if its to be kept in the franchise, in TDS it was clumsy and difficult.

the main reason I really like third person is its pretty cool to see what garrett looks like, before TDS your only impression was cover art and his half concleaed appearances in cut-scenes.

xDarknessFallsx
13th Aug 2009, 00:47
Not really IMO, in First Person I'd feel like I was just looking at a guard from 1 foot away.

That seems odd. So 3rd person perspective feels more 1st person to you than 1st person perspective does? :confused:

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
13th Aug 2009, 02:15
That seems odd. So 3rd person perspective feels more 1st person to you than 1st person perspective does? :confused:

No, 3rd person gives me a greater sense of tension as I can physically see how close my character is from the unsuspecting guard, rather than just looking closely at the guard through the first person view.

This is why Sam's "Closer Than Ever" animation made sneaking up on guards so suspenseful. The measured way in which he moved as he steadily closed the distance to the guard, which would also see him freeze mid motion if you had to pause for a second, really added a massive amount of tension to the sneaking duties in SC:CT and DA.

Vae
13th Aug 2009, 02:24
No, 3rd person gives me a greater sense of tension as I can physically see how close my character is from the unsuspecting guard, rather than just looking closely at the guard through the first person view.


I mean no offense, but do have a problem with depth perception?...I'm just trying to figure this out.

jewbagel
13th Aug 2009, 02:37
If it can be done correctly, definitely both. I think it's enjoyable to play either 3rd or 1st person. I often switched between the two in different circumstances in TDS, despite the problems it caused.

Vae
13th Aug 2009, 02:49
That really is the reason why most of the Thief players want "first person only".

Shadow Blade
13th Aug 2009, 09:53
I just noticed something on TDS. When your in first person and you have climbing gloves you can jump off a ledge then turn Garrett around and attach him to the wall while falling BUT in third person he just plumits to his death and barely even rotates. Has anyone else seen that?

Shadow Blade
13th Aug 2009, 10:44
I used it in the museum when I stole the eye the guard saw me so i dropped over the edge just to see if it would work and it did.So I saved and tried it in third person because i noticed in third person your characters jump felt slightly different in terms of movement and he just dropped. . .I was like . . .What? no wait :eek: lies I say Lies SPLAT

Edit
I think I just realised what causes the problem. In first person when you move the mouse you move Garretts whole body but in third person when you move the mouse you only move the camera behind Garrett and not Garretts body:hmm: that would explain a lot.

Shadow Blade
13th Aug 2009, 11:44
I went and looked for the speed run video for Killing Time, since I knew it had to include some wall-climbing. Check it out starting at about 2:30. Garrett sticks. >Whew!<

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDEtT4KcWSc

I just watched it:)

But what I meant to say was when you jump over a ledge and the wall is behind you in order to grab the wall you have to turn around180 degrees and face the wall while you are falling. In first person Garrett can rotate 180degrees but in third person Garrett cant rotate at all:)

Sorry for not explaining properly

Vae
13th Aug 2009, 11:49
Just another reason not to have third person. The devs could eliminate alot of potential problems by just not implementing it.

Hornpipe
13th Aug 2009, 12:45
I voted both.

3rd person, to make everyone pleased. But I personaly prefer 1st person.

Warning : with the 3rd person and the panoramic camera, you can see those who hide behind the wall corner without being exposed yourself. With 1st person, you must expose your head or try to pass through the wall :mad2:

3rd person is "Cheated".

ToMegaTherion
13th Aug 2009, 13:27
If I can borrow a word (and associated capitalisation) from jtr7: MYTH! The first two games featured a "cheating" way to look round corners too. It is a smaller "cheat" than the 3rd person cheat because it only works if there are shadows where you are, and from time to time it doesn't work perfectly, but leaning in Dark Project and Metal Age was "cheating" in the same fashion as 3rd person view -- you can see round a corner even though you would be spotted if you really peeked round.

The problem in Deadly Shadows was not so much that 3rd person allowed cheating, but that its implementation (presumably) removed the cheating from 1st person.

I don't mind 3rd person users having a look-round-corners cheat as long as I have access to the (less powerful, but similar) look-round-corners cheat I possessed in Dark Project and Metal Age in 1st person.

PJMaybe
13th Aug 2009, 13:50
If I can borrow a word (and associated capitalisation) from jtr7: MYTH! The first two games featured a "cheating" way to look round corners too. It is a smaller "cheat" than the 3rd person cheat because it only works if there are shadows where you are, and from time to time it doesn't work perfectly, but leaning in Dark Project and Metal Age was "cheating" in the same fashion as 3rd person view -- you can see round a corner even though you would be spotted if you really peeked round.

The problem in Deadly Shadows was not so much that 3rd person allowed cheating, but that its implementation (presumably) removed the cheating from 1st person.

I don't mind 3rd person users having a look-round-corners cheat as long as I have access to the (less powerful, but similar) look-round-corners cheat I possessed in Dark Project and Metal Age in 1st person.

I never really considered the leaning out of shadow as a cheat, rather a limitation of what could be implemented and I always saw it as Garrett taking a tiny peek rather than leaning out into the light. There were definitely occasions where Garrett could be in shadow and lean into where there was light and the light gem lit up a little more - but you are right that there are also times when he remained in darkness too. I was hoping dynamic lighting in TDS was going to fix this but alas, it just turned out to be eye candy. I don't really consider using the 3rd person view as cheating either though - it just makes the game easier and I used to find some thrill about leaning around a corner where you could hear a guard sighing but you never new just how close he was until you looked. In 3rd person you could peek around a corner without being anywhere near it - even if the whole corner was bathed in light Garrett could be hidden down the corridor somewhere.

There were loads of times where Garrett should have been visible. Most notably when he stood in a shadow in a doorway with a light behind him but he still remained 'invisible'. In reality he would have been very visible as a sillouette. This was true for all three games (i think - long time since played TDS).

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
13th Aug 2009, 18:03
Hmmm. Maybe a problem with a sense of perspective, since it's two-dimensional?


I mean no offense, but do have a problem with depth perception?...I'm just trying to figure this out.

Not at all. Read my post again. It's not that hard to comprehend.

When looking at the situation in 3rd person, with one character model sneaking up on another (presumably a guard) you can physically see how close one is getting to the other as he approaches him from behind. You can watch as the soft footsteps are laid down and how close his hands come to the model before a snatch/sap/knockout is effected.

Whereas if you watched this in first person all you'd see is your view slowly approaching the guard before you grab/assault him.

I just find that the first option adds more tension to the situation.

EDIT: Though I do find that an awful lot of the complaints about 3rd person seem to be that its implementation screwed with some people's 1st person gaming experiences, which is understandable, but to not want it outright seems to be limiting others gaming experience!

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
13th Aug 2009, 18:11
I never really considered the leaning out of shadow as a cheat, rather a limitation of what could be implemented and I always saw it as Garrett taking a tiny peek rather than leaning out into the light. There were definitely occasions where Garrett could be in shadow and lean into where there was light and the light gem lit up a little more - but you are right that there are also times when he remained in darkness too. I was hoping dynamic lighting in TDS was going to fix this but alas, it just turned out to be eye candy. I don't really consider using the 3rd person view as cheating either though - it just makes the game easier and I used to find some thrill about leaning around a corner where you could hear a guard sighing but you never new just how close he was until you looked. In 3rd person you could peek around a corner without being anywhere near it - even if the whole corner was bathed in light Garrett could be hidden down the corridor somewhere.

There were loads of times where Garrett should. Most notably when he stood in a shadow in a doorway with a light behind him but he still remained 'invisible'. In reality he would have been very visible as a sillouette. This was true for all three games (i think - long time since played TDS).

Ah yes, silhouette detection and to a lesser extent, shadow recognition. There's great call for these by Splinter Cell vets also, but it seems that the computing power and AI programming just isn't there to bring these two features into being yet.

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
14th Aug 2009, 05:34
What we don't understand is that we never had a problem gauging distance in 1st-person. This is literally the first time I've ever heard this. It's safe to say it's very rare. No offense is intended.

Remove the "cheat" aspect and shrink down the larger spaces the 3rd-person camera requires to avoid clipping the terrain, move the camera closer to the player character. 1st-person is critical to Thief. If you didn't have 3rd-person, it wouldn't mean as much, and body awareness isn't that important, either. Both were not needed to create such dedication, inspiration, and devotion to the games.




As for the repeated "limiting others' experience" sentiment... This is EXACTLY why we DON'T want it affecting ours, see? In order for that 3rd-person camera to offer what players expect from that view, the game-world has to be changed to accommodate it in ways that are unfortunate.

What is it with people around here and depth perception? :mad2::nut:

I am not talking about how 3rd person might help you with how close you consider yourself to the target guard for tactical reasons.

I'm talking about how much more fulfilling it is to watch a comprehensively animated character model, that the player controls, stalk and poach/sap a guard, in a manner that reflects how much tension the PC feels, than it is to watch a guard enlarge in your view in the first person before you manage to take them out.

As for the "cheat" aspect associated with 3rd person, I fully appreciate people's sentiments. I feel that for a proper stealth experience, if in the 3rd person, the camera should work in a manner that would not allow a player to peek around a corner, unless they have wall hugged the corner and moved to it's extremity. Even then, there should be a chance that a guard should spot them, based on LoS, shadows, distance and level of awareness.

I would never like to see the 3rd person view inhibiting a persons 1st persons gaming. But if the developers are aware of the problems that have been presented by the "clash of perspectives", it should be very easy for them to rectify them, while still satisfying those fans who like to see a Master Thief in full glorious 3D motion!

xDarknessFallsx
14th Aug 2009, 05:55
I'm talking about how much more fulfilling it is to watch a comprehensively animated character model...

As for the "cheat" aspect associated with 3rd person, ... I feel that for a proper stealth experience, if in the 3rd person, the camera should work in a manner that would not allow a player to peek around a corner, unless they have wall hugged the corner and moved to it's extremity. Even then, there should be a chance that a guard should spot them, based on LoS, shadows, distance and level of awareness.
It's a matter of tastes. I personally derive no pleasure in watching Garrett from 3rd person point of view. I hated seeing Garrett, a mysterious loner character that we hardly ever got to see, all the sudden become a fully cartooned out CGI'd character that I could stand in the light, swivel the camera and see that he was just a normal looking average Joe. All that mysteriousness was all the sudden out the window. I felt disconnected from him and it ruined the Garrett experience a bit for me. He didn't seem as unique and mysterious anymore. I think players should be forced to look through the eyes of Garrett to become more "at one" with him and play the game how I feel it's meant to be played. Plus, when he talks to himself, it makes more sense as a player to hear this when looking through his eyes rather than when looking at a thief guy standing two feet in front of you. I'm not normally in favor of forcing anything on players, but this is one thing I wish is forced.

As for preventing the cheat aspect of 3rd person, I don't see it working. And to force a wallhug to prevent it just adds unnecessary complexity to the controls. This shouldn't be a Tom Clancy game where movement gets restricted when 'wallhug' ducking behind an object or wall. That sort of thing is taking a major step backward control-wise from a Thief game with very free controls that was made 10 years ago. I've always been impressed by the lean of T1/T2 and have played no other game that has done it so well.

ToMegaTherion
14th Aug 2009, 08:40
It's not a problem that 3rd person allows cheating, the problem is that the implementation stopped the cheating in 1st person that we all liked.

ToMegaTherion
14th Aug 2009, 09:00
Actually I thought that was quite a nice post by jtr7

Vae
14th Aug 2009, 09:32
Ah another thread, another attempt to turn the thread into a flame fest which you will later claim is nothing to do with you.


You really can not tell the the difference between discussing something in order to ascertain the truth and flaming, can you?



Nothing wrong with third person. Just because you like it doesn't mean others can't prefer one or the other.


No ones saying that there is a problem with having a personal preference. The only real issue with third person is in how it negatively affects the first person view mechanics. This is a mechanical and design issue, and has nothing to do with personal preference.



Once again you attack the other guys opinion. This is exactly why you've got a bad reputation here with the non-regulars.

Once again I am hearing you talk out of your ass, as you look a gift horse in the mouth.

The Deadly Shadow
14th Aug 2009, 09:39
you talk out of your ass

Take some of your own advice;


You really can not tell the the difference between discussing something in order to ascertain the truth and flaming, can you?

Shadow Blade
14th Aug 2009, 09:51
Sigh there was nothing offensive about jtr7 post at all. . . He just said he cant relate to oO_ShadowFox_Oo's view of things so its better to drop it in order to avoid a flame war.

Seriously all this flame war nonsence is immature, unneccessary and is actually recking the forum.I bet you When the devs see this trash they probably dont even want to reed the rest of the thread let alone the whole forum.

Can we all get back to the topic now seriously without accusing other people of trying to start a flame war. . . Once again

Hornpipe
14th Aug 2009, 10:50
Yeah ! Just calm down... Or you'll be fired upon :flowers: ... with colored flowers. :rasp:

I'm agree with removing any cheat, including 1st person (look-round-corners cheat) and 3rd person (look-round-corners cheat with panoramic camera) or this :

Most notably when he stood in a shadow in a doorway with a light behind him but he still remained 'invisible

Game will be more difficult but it's not a problem for me.

Nevertheless, I think it's important to have both : 1st person and 3rd person. Technically, I would wager it make no difference.

Vae
14th Aug 2009, 10:58
Yeah ! Just calm down... Or you'll be fired upon :flowers: ... with colored flowers. :rasp:


:thumb: I like your style.



I'm agree with removing any cheat, including 1st person (look-round-corners cheat) and 3rd person (look-round-corners cheat with panoramic camera) or this :


I agree. Take out all the cheats. I only worry about what problems third person view might cause first person view.

darkmagicasorseer
14th Aug 2009, 12:15
I voted both.

3rd person, to make everyone pleased. But I personaly prefer 1st person.

Warning : with the 3rd person and the panoramic camera, you can see those who hide behind the wall corner without being exposed yourself. With 1st person, you must expose your head or try to pass through the wall :mad2:

3rd person is "Cheated".

1. Maybe in my opinion, there should never be a third person view is should have 3rd person over the shoulder (OTS) view instead if there is really a huge demand for that said view. It also avoid "cheating" as the view will "shift" to highlight the player character to avoid cheating.

2. First person in my opinion lets us to be Garrett immerse in his view, if Garrett doesn't want to risk showing his head in a corner he should have a new ability such as plucking his mechanical eye out to survey around corners.

3. I think there should be a play testing on thief for both views where the inefficient one should be thrown away. I want first person view not third person view, I want to be Garrett not following his but.

ToMegaTherion
14th Aug 2009, 15:33
I;m quite interested in ShadowFox's explanation, I really never thought about that before. I think I will try some third person with an open mind and see if I can get where he's coming from, and then report back.

ZylonBane
14th Aug 2009, 23:05
It's not a problem that 3rd person allows cheating, the problem is that the implementation stopped the cheating in 1st person that we all liked.
WHAT. :scratch:

xDarknessFallsx
15th Aug 2009, 00:26
I've been trying not to say this, but in the interest of being somewhat diplomatic, the only reason I'd be for allowing 3rd person as an option is for the unfortunate folks who get motion sickness from 1st person. I have a friend who can't play most FPS games unless it's in 3rd person POV. Fortunately, he doesn't like Thief, so 3rd person POV shouldn't be built for him. LOL.

Acrid
15th Aug 2009, 14:14
OMG first person is for COUNTER STRIKE,this is not THIEF 4.
THIEF 4 will third and first person...

PlumsieTaker
15th Aug 2009, 14:58
OMG first person is for COUNTER STRIKE,this is not THIEF 4.
THIEF 4 will third and first person...

The TDP and TMA had first person, and look how they turned out.

Thief 3 had third person, and look how that turned out...

And don't compare Counter-Strike with Thief, they have nothing in common and is totally irrelevant.

Acrid
15th Aug 2009, 15:49
The TDP and TMA had first person, and look how they turned out.

Thief 3 had third person, and look how that turned out...

And don't compare Counter-Strike with Thief, they have nothing in common and is totally irrelevant.


Thief 3 had too first person,but at first person we can't see our thief hero Garret,
this is bad. ...:(

esme
15th Aug 2009, 15:57
personally when I play I don't want to see my hero Garrett, because at that moment I am Garrett, if I can see him as a separate entity then it breaks that immersion

Acrid
15th Aug 2009, 16:10
the best for Thief 4 will FIRST plus THIRD PERSON,because some gamers are not wont on fist person
they can vomit

Platinumoxicity
15th Aug 2009, 18:44
All the people who want 3rd person for T4, imagine if Thief had always been 1st person. If TDS would've been only 1st person like the others. Would you still want T4 to be 3rd person? Even though the thought would've never crossed your mind?

And why is it that:
T1, 1st person = good
T2, 1st person = good
TDS, 3rd person = bad

Why would anyone support something that has been one of the biggest mistakes in the series? As long as Thief stayed 1st person, the movement was fine, and the cutscenes were beautiful pieces of art. As soon as Garrett got a 3rd person model, the movement got screwed and the developers got an excuse to make poor in-game rendered cutscenes in the game. 3rd person ruined Thief once already. Do you honestly want it to happen again? We want T4 to be better than TDS so that Thief 2 can finally get a sequel it deserves. The first step is to learn from previous mistakes.

trfan518
15th Aug 2009, 23:05
While I do like the third person view that we had in Thief Deadly Shadows, I believe that Thief should ultimately be done in 3rd person. This is not to say that it cannot be done well, I believe it can. However, in this case, since Thief 3 did not do as well as Thief 1 and 2, if they are going to reinvigorate the franchise, they should stick with something they know works extremely well for Thief, and that is 1st person.

Extremely excited!!!

Vae
15th Aug 2009, 23:21
While I do like the third person view that we had in Thief Deadly Shadows, I believe that Thief should ultimately be done in 3rd person.

You meant to say 1st person, right?

trfan518
16th Aug 2009, 02:56
You meant to say 1st person, right?

yes thank you for correcting me. I do like the 3rd person choice we got with Thief DS. But I ultimately think T4 should be done in 1st person. If we do get a choice between 1st and 3rd person, 1st person should be the default. It may be good for them to give us a choice between the two either way. Im not saying that third person is bad, it doesnt have to be poorly done and ruin the game machanics. They can make it just as good as 1st person if it is done the right way (however that may be)

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
16th Aug 2009, 09:38
T1, 1st person = good
T2, 1st person = good
TDS, 3rd person = bad

Huh? :scratch: And I think you'll find third person was optional.

Squid
16th Aug 2009, 10:15
3rd person in TDS was brought about because we, the fans, wanted Garrett to cast a shadow. In order to implement that, IS had to build him a 'body.' To see the body and the shadow working properly, they added a 3rd person camera. Thus, 3rd person Thief was born.

Squid

Acrid
16th Aug 2009, 15:54
[QUOTE=Squid;1124481]3rd person in TDS was brought about because we, the fans, wanted Garrett to cast a shadow. In order to implement that, IS had to build him a 'body.' To see the body and the shadow working properly, they added a 3rd person camera. Thus, 3rd person Thief was born.

Yes,you right.
Third person is best idea and i don't say first person is bad,but i think third person is better.
First person you can change with key set...

PlumsieTaker
16th Aug 2009, 16:48
With the original titles, first person made me feel as if I was Garrett himself, we were both the one entity. Whereas in TDS, third person made feel as if I was just a puppet master controlling Garrett, it gave me no immersion into the game what-so-ever. So when I switched to first person to counter that, the gameplay became clunky and revolting.

PJMaybe
16th Aug 2009, 20:57
3rd person in TDS was brought about because we, the fans, wanted Garrett to cast a shadow.

I wanted Garrett to cast a shadow too but only as something the guards would notice. For aesthetics it was good but it was not worth all the issues that 3rd person brought with it.
When they anounced TDS would have dynamic lighting I was very excited. When they said the guards would see your shadow I practically wet myself. When it was released we had the dynamic lighting and the cool shadows but what did it do for the game other than look good? Nothing. Big disappointment.

ZylonBane
16th Aug 2009, 21:53
Third person is best idea and i don't say first person is bad,but i think third person is better.
You're wrong.

No, it's not a matter of opinion or preference. People who want to play Thief in third-person are just plain wrong, broken, and need to get out of the *delete*

Bono
16th Aug 2009, 22:42
I can't agree more.

Quad
16th Aug 2009, 23:01
After weeks of studying the 500+ manual and trying to execute it, I could fly an F-16 in Falcon 4 (or was it F4lcon....hmmmmm) on full realism. All the switches, the flightcomputer, weaponsystems, comms, etc.,the whole thing also programmed on my HoTaS (hands on throttle and stick) combined with TrackIR motion tracker to simulate the pilots headmovement inside the cockpit. Man, I was proud. So, then I went to a flightsim LAN-party. I saw a kid at the age of 13 perhaps, with the same HoTaS, his parents behind him and I heard him say : "Look mom, I'm flying a jet!". It was the same Falcon 4, but in external view only. He "flew" nothing but in that view. He was making a goddamn arcade game out of it ! Oh yeah, and he could shoot missiles and drop bombs and do some maneuvres... BUT HE COULD NOT FLY !

You could ask yourself : "Sure he's a kid, let him play it that way...". Hell no, because the development of such an extreme nich "game" simulator is very expensive and has a lot less financial income due to the small group of potential buyers (read: the hardcore simmers). Imagine if the devs had to take that group of "gamers" into consideration, then they've wasted 80% of their time implententing the REAL simulator, just to please the kids? If you want arcade flight-games, then you DON'T buy Falcon 4. F4 is a sim for serious simmers. Period. Oh my god. I'm still angry when I think of it. Thief should be focussed on those who really want to BE like a thief. A Thief/Taffer-simulator. Not some silly arcade-like game with the "I can see everything"-third person stinking view (or blinking "HERE, TAKE ME" loot you blind sucker or magically lit "I AM A DOOR AND I KID YOU NOT" kind-of door....).

Third person in Thief is NOT the way it's ment to be played. Those who want to see him in 3D, take a screenshot from T3, put it on a background and be happy. I don't want to see him.



Ok, just a quick test for everybody. Stand up straight like a soldier. Now make a step forward.


How did you do that? Did you really ordered your right leg to move forward ? Well, I didn't. It went automatically. The same for my arms, fingers.... autopilot baby. I don't have to see me do it to know that I'm doing it. The fact that the engine responds correctly to my intentions is just fine. But it has to do it well and TDS failed in that perspective due to compromises/bad execution. Thief 1 and 2 implemented it ... nearly perfect :thumb: . I'm pretty sure that the "first person vs third person" discussion would never have existed if there never was a third person-option and I believe that that option only exists because Thief was made for consoles and it just has a different kind of players. That last one is a pretty heavy statement, because I know a lot of "older" console-players, but they admit they play it to have some dumb-fun with no hassle. Is that the compromise that the devs are willing to make to get more buck$ ? For the love of Garrett : NO !!!!!

I really don't understand why people want to see him all the time.... the only reason I can come up with, is a rude one (besides those with motion sickness) : kids who were raised with TPS and lack the imagination to BE someone for themselves.

imperialreign
16th Aug 2009, 23:53
1st person is a definite . . .

I don't mind the 3rd person capability - as long as we aren't stuck with 3rd person movement while using 1st person mode . . . like how in TDS, movement could be very tricky, as 1st-person was simply a "relocated" camera angle . . . turning around on a ledge proved quite troublesome at times, and made for very awkward movements.

ToMegaTherion
17th Aug 2009, 09:18
I don't really understand why people need to be in first person to pretend they are Garrett, so I reckon we need to be reasonable about people who claim opinions that we can't understand, because they can be reasonable opinions.

Vae
17th Aug 2009, 09:38
I don't really understand why people need to be in first person to pretend they are Garrett, so I reckon we need to be reasonable about people who claim opinions that we can't understand, because they can be reasonable opinions.

This concept is known as "immersion", and can not be achieved in third person. In third person you can pretend and have fun, but your mind can not possibly ever be immersed, unless you were to be placed within the focal point of consciousness of the character in which you are enacting. This state of mind is also known as "suspension of disbelief". Many have never achieved this state, and therefore have difficulty with this reference.

Quad
17th Aug 2009, 11:00
I don't really understand why people need to be in first person to pretend they are Garrett.

If you play in third person, you control a puppet. Anything that happens to that puppet, won't hurt you or get you involved. It's only a puppet. A simple remote-controlled thingy.

But if you play in first person, it all happens directly to you. It also simulates the freedom that you experience in reallife. Oddly enough, the only thing I know IS first person, because I've never seen myself act through the lens of a camera behind me. Now THAT would be some awesome out-of-body experience.... As a result, you "become" the character, you become immersed.

It's difficult for me not to understand that concept. It's so obvious because everything you do in reallife is first person. Maybe another (hopefully relevant) example : during an airshow, you see jets do awesome maneuvres. Doing great displays, engines growling, smoke, power, speed ! But the pilot inside that cockpit, has a complete different experience than you. He doesn't see his plane from outside doing those moves and displaying his jet from all kinds of angles. That's just a side-effect.

The Deadly Shadow
17th Aug 2009, 11:36
LOL @ the usual suspects whining about third person perspective.

Vae
17th Aug 2009, 11:42
LOL @ the usual suspects whining about third person perspective.

Not a fan of immersion are you?

:lol:...You know what's really funny, is that you think you are in the majority with your pigeon-holed statements, when in fact you are one of the few one track minded whiners in the minority...:lol:

kin
17th Aug 2009, 11:47
I don't really understand why people need to be in first person to pretend they are Garrett.
I agree with Quad's post and I will add that first person stimulates your natural automatic reflexes. What I mean? When I played TDS in third person for the first time it felt like watching TV when replayed in first person I started making unexplainable movements on my chair like duck when passing under an obstacle or moving my torso to avoid a hit.... Also I got sweat the second time I played. It was funny to watch me playing :lol:

kabatta
17th Aug 2009, 11:52
:lol: Good one. I just got used to first person perspective. I still try to look at the edge of my screen for a corner in the game.

esme
17th Aug 2009, 11:53
:lol: Good one. I just got used to first person perspective. I still try to look at the edge of my screen for a corner in the game.
*putshandup* um me too :o

The Deadly Shadow
17th Aug 2009, 11:56
Not a fan of immersion are you?

:lol:...You know what's really funny, is that you think you are in the majority with your pigeon-holed statements, when in fact you are one of the few one track minded whiners in the minority...:lol:

I think it's funny that you think kissing ass and posting ten smileys into every post makes you look like a man, when you're actually an ignorant child.

esme
17th Aug 2009, 12:01
people, could we calm it down and try staying on topic, please

Vae
17th Aug 2009, 12:07
Yes, first person is best.


I think it's funny that you think kissing ass and posting ten smileys into every post makes you look like a man, when you're actually an ignorant child.

You need to have some sort of rational basis for your arguments and not just say "stuff". People will respect you more. You don't want to be known just as a TDS troll do you?...who always barges into a thread over and over again, just to blast those having a reasonable discussion about the nature of the game.

The Deadly Shadow
17th Aug 2009, 12:10
Whining is the incorrect term and on the incorrect place on the emotional spectrum for our comments.

No, it's the right one. It's amusing that yourself, Vae and your little buddies ***** and complain about being mistreated on these forums. Then five minutes later you stick up for comments like the one ZylonBane posted above; "third person is the wrong way to play Thief, it's a fact and those people that prefer it should get out of the gene pool". You're hypocrites, and it's sad to see you actually think you're in the right.

You can't stop people posting here about Thief 4 and the things they preferred with the newer game and flame them just because you don't like it. It's really simple and you should be able to comprehend.

I hope you really love Thief 4. :)

The Deadly Shadow
17th Aug 2009, 12:14
Vae you stuck up for this comment and were congratulating what a fantastic post this was;


You're wrong.

No, it's not a matter of opinion or preference. People who want to play Thief in third-person are just plain wrong, broken, and need to get out of the gene pool.

HOW is this not trolling? HOW are you NOT trolling? You're a hypocrite of the highest order.

I don't need to say any more, you guys please get a clue.

Vae
17th Aug 2009, 12:24
Vae you stuck up for this comment and were congratulating what a fantastic post this was;



HOW is this not trolling? HOW are you NOT trolling? You're a hypocrite of the highest order.

I don't need to say any more, you guys please get a clue.

There is a difference between personal preferences and an objective mechanic in a game that has universal consequences. Some things are preference, some things are not. It just seems that you see everything through a "personal prism" and act accordingly. Therefore you do not see things as they are and comment as if everything were personal.

esme
17th Aug 2009, 12:27
oh ffs! :mad2:
see what happens when someone drops an insult in the middle of a conversation just because someone else dares to disagree with their opinion

the rest of the page gets filled with equally inflammatory responses

well done, hope that was what you wanted because it was fairly inevitable that was what was going to happen

if this sort of thing happens much more then I'm just going to leave the forum, because I'm seriously beginning not to care, I don't really want to be associated with Thief if this is the sort of behaviour you expect from people who play it

kin
17th Aug 2009, 13:07
One bad thing about 3rd person that came to my mind right now is that almost 20%-30% of the field of view is wasted because it is hidden behind the character you see. Pretty cinιmatographique when it should be 100% FPSneakerish.

Acrid
17th Aug 2009, 14:29
In 1.person i can't see Garret,as Garret is DON'T EXIST in this game Thief4...........

This want 1+3.PERSON

Please be reasonable...

PlumsieTaker
17th Aug 2009, 14:39
In 1.person i can't see Garret,as Garret is DON'T EXIST in this game Thief4...........

This want 1+3.PERSON

Please be reasonable...

That's because, in first person YOU ARE HIM. He does exist, you are him, he is you. You're the one entity.

Third person, you're just a puppet master controlling a doll. It offers no immersion into the game. And, unless done correctly, having both 1st and 3rd person makes the first person gameplay clunky and annoying. (TDS is a prime example, along with others such as Oblivion).

CerraMorgan
17th Aug 2009, 14:47
I was tempted to vote 'Third person only' because that's the only view I can play in (I suffer from motion sickness) but I think both views should be implemented. That way everybody is happy.

That's interesting, it never occurred to me that some people would be unable to play certain styles due to medical issues. I love the game in first-person and I would never use third-person (I find it disorienting and extremely difficult to control) but I would not want to see some people miss out just because of a personal preference issue.

There must be a way to incorporate an option for either and have each one work properly.

kin
17th Aug 2009, 15:08
I was tempted to vote 'Third person only' because that's the only view I can play in (I suffer from motion sickness)

Do you have the same problem in FPS games that use a crosshair?

CerraMorgan
17th Aug 2009, 15:35
Here's an interesting line of discussion - how many people prefer first or third person because of difficulties using the other?

For example, as I mentioned earlier, I find third person disorienting, possibly because I have difficulty with spatial relationships (parallel parking is totally beyond me!) and therefore I prefer first person because it feels more natural and is exponentially easier for me to control.

What do other people experience?

Bono
17th Aug 2009, 15:48
Vae you stuck up for this comment and were congratulating what a fantastic post this was;

HOW is this not trolling? HOW are you NOT trolling? You're a hypocrite of the highest order.

I don't need to say any more, you guys please get a clue.

Hey just don't talk nonsense. ZylonBane is one ot the most adequate and reasonable persons both here and on TTLG forums, and you know why? Because he Says Right Things. You know? Sometimes there needs to be someone who can come and tell the difference between stupid people who don't have an idea what they are talking about but think that their opinion is interesting to anybody, and people who really know what's right and what's wrong.

I only can paraphrase what ZB said: if you think that Thief can be played in third person (i'm not talking should or might, it's can), it's completely wrong, absurd and nonsense, that means you don't have a smallest clue what Thief is about. Go play first two games, do your homework, then come back here to discuss.

If the game is designed to support third person perspective (even as an addition to first person view), it is already flawed, because support for TP view requires the designers to build appropriate levels. They should not build tiny spaces. They should not build lots of small hallways and sewers to crawl. They should not do this and should not do that because they always do care about this taffin' CAMERA that is hanging behind a player's back! If the hallway is too small, the only thing the player sees is the protaganist's ass. If there are too many crates and columns in the room, the camera will most likely get stuck in a wall or behind an obstacle. The best way to avoid this? Build simplier, emptier levels!

This is why, ideally, third person should not be even an option. It's a huge difference between 'first person only' and 'first person with optional third person support'.

Have you ever thought why TDS had so huge hallways, columns, buttons and everything? No, it's not only console players who sit three meters away from the TV.

I'm not even talking about the whole immersion thing.

Hey, one doesn't need to be a genius to think about this.

ZylonBane
17th Aug 2009, 15:49
HOW is this not trolling? HOW are you NOT trolling? You're a hypocrite of the highest order.
How? Because that's not what "trolling" means. It's also not what "hypocrisy" means either. Maybe you should go spend some time with a dictionary.

EDIT: Also, in the highly unlikely event that Eidos is clueful enough to go strictly first-person, the third-person mode will probably still be available anyway. They are using a Tomb Raider engine, after all. The support is already there.

Bono
17th Aug 2009, 16:15
Well there is a very very very very small chance that they disable it by design and craft levels having only first person in mind.

... oh well.

What am I talking about? We are living in 2009, the industry has grown up.

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
17th Aug 2009, 16:28
Ah....the age old practice of respecting people's opinions on the internet.

Where would we be without it! :D

Davehall380
17th Aug 2009, 16:35
The original two titles were brilliant partly because of the first person perspective. The game relies on sound and lighting to create a tense atmosphere, and the sense of claustrophobia that first person gives really added to the feeling of tension. Third person is great, dont get me wrong. But TDS suffered in my opinion from a lack of what made the other two titles great - real tension. Being able to see not just whats in front but whats in the periphery does more to shattering an immersive enviroment than you might think. My opinion anyway lol :-)

Davehall380
17th Aug 2009, 16:37
There must be a way to incorporate an option for either and have each one work properly.

I agree - but unfortunatley, the compromise in TDS wasnt nearly as good enough as it could have been. Concessions were made for having a third person perspective, and thus the movement never felt quite 'right' (compared to the other titles). Id love to see a way that both could be implemented, so as to suit everyone.

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
17th Aug 2009, 17:56
Hey just don't talk nonsense. ZylonBane is one ot the most adequate and reasonable persons both here and on TTLG forums,

Epic Fail!


Maybe you should go spend some time with a dictionary.

People who want to play Thief in third-person are just plain wrong, broken, and need to get out of the gene pool.

http://skepticalteacher.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/facepalm1.jpg

Acrid
17th Aug 2009, 18:04
I agree - but unfortunatley, the compromise in TDS wasnt nearly as good enough as it could have been. Concessions were made for having a third person perspective, and thus the movement never felt quite 'right' (compared to the other titles). Id love to see a way that both could be implemented, so as to suit everyone.

You are reasonable :thumb: :)

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
17th Aug 2009, 18:22
You are reasonable :thumb: :)

I enjoyed using third person on my Xbox and for my PC, first-person was good. I don't see why it has to be a problem.

I'm sure Eidos will use the same system as Deadly Shadows, works for me. ;)