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View Full Version : Thief IV - REALISM & SURREALISM / Anomalies, Glowing Mushrooms, etc



Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th May 2009, 14:53
Do you welcome the return of surrealism in Thief IV?
The strange, the unusual, the unknown, the deviation from the norm and the hidden beauty behind the fearful and grotesque etc?

Discuss... :cool:



__


Will-O-Wisp:

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu83/T4Mod/willowisp.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/TMA_b16_00154.jpg


Constantine's Mansion:

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu83/T4Mod/constantinesmansion.gif


Glowing Mushrooms:


http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/6693/glowymushroom.jpg (http://img24.imageshack.us/my.php?image=glowymushroom.jpg)

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
12th May 2009, 15:00
Of course, its an already established aspect of the series (I loved Garrets reactions to "Constantines" house in TDP ).

ivanboringregistrations
12th May 2009, 15:12
of course! surrealism is a MUST!
i like constantine mansion and absolutely ingenious story twist with the eye!

guys do something like this, give us a hope =)
thanks!

UrUkUs
12th May 2009, 15:26
sure, i loved "the sword" level design in T1 for example for it's surrealism, also like this lighting shroomz, that way was perfect to lit dark places.

Thievingtaffer
12th May 2009, 15:35
Yea, the surrealism is what helped make the atmosphere of the first games so great. And you're right n UrUkUs, the Sword was a home-run of a mission.

Elukka
12th May 2009, 17:54
Absolutely. Surrealism adds a lot to the atmosphere.
However, it's something to be used in moderation. As an example, I think the first game overused zombies and other "strange" things, resulting in their effect being diminished. Sometimes, you just want to rob that bank without zombies or wood monsters or glowy mushrooms being involved.

Pangalactic
12th May 2009, 18:00
This topic is awesome...IMHO surrealism is really important to the Thief experience. Glowy mushrooms, the strange fusion of magic and technology, the huge, dark City....And then there was this huge, uncharted, endless forest surrounding the city on all sides that's full of monsters, pagans, gods... The mystery surrounding everything in the game, the fact you would never really uncover close to all of the City's secrets... The atmosphere was such a huge part of playing Thief!

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th May 2009, 18:40
This topic is awesome...IMHO surrealism is really important to the Thief experience. Glowy mushrooms, the strange fusion of magic and technology, the huge, dark City....And then there was this huge, uncharted, endless forest surrounding the city on all sides that's full of monsters, pagans, gods... The mystery surrounding everything in the game, the fact you would never really uncover close to all of the City's secrets... The atmosphere was such a huge part of playing Thief!

*Sigh* I'm in a trance. :cool:

Feel free (everyone) to post up any surreal images in this thread.
Some luminous mushrooms would be good for starters... :D

Tr1ckst3r
12th May 2009, 19:24
Yes this is a must for me. Constantines was a perfect example of surrealism, especially with that wierd giggling near the spiral tunnel and the peculiar music. Also liked things like the detail in the paintings on the walls and the stained glass window effects etc throughout the games.

BoldEnglishman
12th May 2009, 20:48
Surrealism is part of the world that Thief takes place in. You can never have too much surrealism!

xXFl4meXx
12th May 2009, 21:02
*Sigh* I'm in a trance. :cool:

Feel free (everyone) to post up any surreal images in this thread.
Some luminous mushrooms would be good for starters... :D

Did someone say shrooms? lol..

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/6693/glowymushroom.jpg (http://img24.imageshack.us/my.php?image=glowymushroom.jpg)

& on topic, yes definitely, without surrealism thief loses its mysterious nature, and its atmosphere..

Subjective Effect
12th May 2009, 21:07
Surrealism is all but essential. T1 and 2 had wonderful surrealism, especially T1. FREAKY!

Oh how we loved it.

TDS fugged it all up.

Danie1
12th May 2009, 21:07
Everyone seems to be referenceing Constantine's Mansion for surrealism, but I don't forget Bonehoard. It's my favortie with its twisting caverns, huge climbing areas, rooms with puzzles, and of course irrate residents.

GmanPro
12th May 2009, 21:09
I wasn't really a fan of those crazy missions. I just got lost all the time. Which is why I loved Thief 2 so much. They got away from the crazy maze missions and monsters, and focused on the epic mansion missions.

xXFl4meXx
12th May 2009, 21:14
Hmmm, personally trail of blood seemed like the most surreal mission to me, especially how the seasons changed, I believe there were 4 seasons? Blah cant remember, its been around 9 years since I played Thief II.. I tried playing it again, but it didn't want to work for some reason.. blah.

StalinsGhost
12th May 2009, 21:15
Utterly essential. I could not imagine a Thief game without the super-natural.

Pangalactic
13th May 2009, 00:22
Remember the mechanist cathedral in 'Eavesdropping' in TMA? On the grounds there was a little graveyard off to the side, and when you got close to it you could hear the otherworldly whisperings of the dead....so cool...

In 'Life of the Party' the greenhouse, the necromancer's tower, and the lab where the astronomer was making a rocket to the moon, other weird stuff like that.

The fact that there's an entire section in the middle of the oldest part of the City that is walled off and nobody dares enter because it's haunted...and then there's the Cradle.

The Haunt roaming the catacombs underneath the Truart estate's chapel that you could hear from the altar...

That little mechanist shrine hidden behind the boxes in the mansion of the first TMA mission.

I guess the stuff I've brought up isn't so much surreal as it is anomalous...whatever it is I thought it was just really cool.

tokamak
13th May 2009, 04:41
I remember one bridge in TMA in the forest where there were these floating sprites, just like in the cutscenes. No one really explains what they are, but they were cool, and the lighting effect they produced was cool.

Nate
13th May 2009, 05:00
They are willow the wisps.

Herr_Garrett
13th May 2009, 05:48
They are willow the wisps.

Will o' whisps or will o' wisps. Actually, the sound they produced was present in DS - in the Pagan area in the Docks, you could hear nigh that tree.

Surrealism is crucial. Essential. Vital. Amond many things, that made Thief Thief. This is something everyone meddling in the Thiefverse must consider.

huzi73
13th May 2009, 09:29
Bring back.ALL creatures from T1-T2,especially burricks,zombies,and haunts(which are voted gamespots scariest enemies of all time.How can you ignore that!?)all those who dont want to see the return of the undead are saying so because they are scared *****less by the undead.Do NOT bring back the keeper enforcers!

Keeper_Riff
13th May 2009, 10:15
Just remember that Thiefverse is not the Earth. Please don't name months. If you really need to, then name them by Zodiac signs, not Roman emperors. Don't name days of week — we don't even know how many days are there in a Thiefverse week (personally I believe that 11*30+1*35 days year and 5 days in a week fit much better in Thiefverse).

Flashart
13th May 2009, 10:47
I think there's several different aspects here.
Natural surrealism, 'shrooms, beasties etc.
Created surrealism, Contantines, is the best example
Magical surrealism, like the "time travel" in The Cradle.

All are important, it's just the quantities that need careful management.
A little "Natural" scattered throughout, maybe 2 "Created" levels
And perhaps a single level of "Magical".
Less is definitely more.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th May 2009, 15:26
^
Yes, some very good points made there.

tender19
14th May 2009, 07:22
I loved that tunnel in Constantine's manor, where you could end up in outer space, that was awesome.

Alex50
14th May 2009, 09:17
Surrealism is necessary in separate missions / places, there where the Chaos operates. It is possession pagans, and undead (undead - display of Chaos. About it is spoken in Tdp, Tma and Tds)
Well if there will be a city, as in Tds. And the city will vary constantly from that who prevails Hammers or Pagans. If prevail Hammers, there are more machines, the illumination, gadget of tracking. If it Pagans, is more than trees, wandering fairy and atmosphere of irreality. Like park in rich quarter from Tds.

Corvin25
14th May 2009, 12:39
As long as you don't go overboard with it, I'd love to see some more "surreal" levels. They'd have to be few and far between though. After all, even the most amazing things tend to lose their edge if you're exposed to them constantly. Constantine's mansion, the Maw's reverse-gravity water, etc. Those were very cool, mostly because we weren't expecting to see such things.

samcoarse
18th May 2009, 15:50
The big question..

Do you think it's time Thief gave up the apemen/zombie/bipedalist animal and focused more on the deception of man? Do you think it's time to get the series back to some grassroots thieving?

For me personally running into an apeman in T2 after surreptitiously enduring art galleries, mansions and police stations really did break immersion. It left me wondering what a career thief was actually doing there. I can appreciate the storyline escorting you through but it could of turned down a more, real alley way.

Personally I wouldn't mind if we went back in time with T4, to a time when the undead were still comfortable 6 feet under and no animal had evolution forced on them by wild imaginations. Where the cynicism of Garret was beginning to bloom. Perhaps he (or alternate main character) can just be tentatively starting out in the thief trade, trying his luck as a wretched street thief in busy low security market places. Undoubtedly he will inevitably become embroiled in some storyline that, hopefully he comes across and follows through as a professional alone.

I think we enjoyed the detached outlook of Garret (especially in T2) doing things for his own benefit and as the game progressed motives leveled out as to why he was participating in missions. In T3 he became less of a Thief and more of a Hero, with an epic ending to boot. I'd prefer if he heard about a scenario (in which he could profit) and if there was an extra item needed by someone he could oblige and sell/give it to them or just sell it independently for profit. The storyline could be as detached as the main character is to it but still they hear about and inevitably react to each other, after all it's taking place in the same city. In the end what do you care..Your just a thief?

Basically more thieving specifics, more hardline thief orientated missions, less avoiding eye contact of lizardmen. I'm sure true diehards will disagree and understand I don't mean eliminate the thrill of the fear, just make it more..real. Creeping through a sweaty bar to the safe, find out the money is being ushered to the gambler owner that moment, knock out the runner on the way, or rob the owner? Hear about a funeral of an eminent figure from a borough of the city, find out it's being held at one of the cities biggest chapels, it's going to be filled with mourners..so many empty homes..!

A Pure Thief experience is all I'm after..Thoughts?

KuBiLaY17
18th May 2009, 15:54
i think those creatures are a part of the thief universe, it cant be made undone. its part of the history of the city, the game itself and the storyline.

Corvin25
18th May 2009, 15:55
Magic hasn't suddenly vanished from the world since Thief 3 ended.... only Glyph Magic. It would take a tremendous amount of retconning and compromise or convoluted explanations if it was a purely human campaign.

THe whole idea behind Garrett is that he's not just a master thief for people alone. He can steal from anyone, man or beast or god. So no, I don't think removing all fantasy elements would help the series at all, rather the opposite.

TeoRocker
18th May 2009, 16:06
Meh, one of the main reasons I love the Thief games is that Fantasy element.

Espion
18th May 2009, 16:09
No, I think the bizarre and magical needs to stay firmly in the games. It's intrinsic to the Thief universe and if you took it out then it wouldn't be Thief anymore. Why call it Thief 4 if it's not going to be a Thief game?

Belboz
18th May 2009, 16:18
its only keeper glyphs that have been removed, and if the game is set before thief 3, then those glyphs are still there. The olde magic the magic that created the world thats not connected to keeper glyphs would still be there, and keeper glyphs the magic was basically prophecy magic and not the type of magic that would be used to control and make magical creatures.

DarthEnder
18th May 2009, 16:49
Love the fantasy. It's what allows them to add things that are LIKE modern security systems to their steampunk setting.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
18th May 2009, 18:14
I'll admit, I prefer the missions with regular people over the ones with robots, zombies, and monsters. There are exceptions though.

All those freaky things are part of the game and shouldn't be taken out, but I would like to see more regular thieving missions where I go to some dudes house/manor/castle.

Caranfin
18th May 2009, 20:21
All those creatures are an important part of the Thief universe, and I would not have them removed. Apart from that, the zombies for example also offer an interesting variety to just being up against human guards all the time. There's the psychological effect of having to sneak around the undead, as well as the fact that you can't kill them without flasbombs or holy water if you screw up.

WVI
18th May 2009, 20:43
I'll admit, I prefer the missions with regular people over the ones with robots, zombies, and monsters. There are exceptions though.

All those freaky things are part of the game and shouldn't be taken out, but I would like to see more regular thieving missions where I go to some dudes house/manor/castle.

This. For me, the most enjoyable missions were the ones that made me actually feel like a thief. Like the Overlook Mansion; that was a GREAT mission.

huzi73
18th May 2009, 21:49
Err...Bring back the zombies and craymen,that was some wicked crap right there...Taking out creatures from thief,is like removing adam from bioshock,its what defines the game!But I wholeheartedly feel lord bafford needs to be robbed again.

LightWarriorK
19th May 2009, 03:01
I think that my favorite bit of surrealism has to be the streetlights, and by extention the fact that electricity seems to be transmitted throughout the city without wires. I know that it wasn't true electricity but magic, but you still had devices using the power as if it were, so the diffierence is negligible.

It was the first sense I had, from the very first mission at Lord Bafford's manor in TDP, that the setting wasn't in medieval Europe or the like, and that something was definately off.

Personally, I'd love for them to perfect those notions in Thief 4 and expand upon them in a way that really makes ALL the tech (magitech?) throughout the city stand out in a way that is at once both medieval and yet completely beyond our comprehension.

Pangalactic
19th May 2009, 03:52
I wonder if one of the original Thief devs was a Tesla buff because a lot of the electric technology in the Thiefverse seems like Tesla gone wild....But then again seeing as most mansions in T1 and T2 had their own power stations, the city must run on DC power...which was an Edison thing. So if Edison and Tesla had a baby, and that baby was a wizard, he was the one who designed the City's power grid.

xDarknessFallsx
19th May 2009, 04:08
I love the surrealism of Thief. Magical electricity, glowing mushrooms, floating orbs of light in the pagan world, the lore, the spirits/ghosts, glowing crystals, etc. But a true balance is definitely critical. I mostly played and play Thief 2. Never played TDS again after beating it. Thief 1 was a little to haunt heavy for me. The balance between realism and surreal in Thief 2 is nice for me. There might've been a 'little' too many beasties and such for my taste, but in retrospect, it's all part of the wonder of Thief 2... and makes me think of how 'big' that game really seems. It's almost like playing a few different games in one game somehow... yet those games are all tied together into one. Even the "real" levels sometimes had 'subtle' elements of surrealness... whether it be a classic painting with a magical orb in it, or glowing mushrooms in a dark, dank corridor, or?

I'm not a big fan of the zombies; they don't do much for me.

I loved the times where an occasional harmless ghost popped up and startled me to tell me their personal story and then faded away. Those ghosts weren't over-done. If anything, I wish they happened in a few more places throughout Thief 2. (Ghosts don't always have to be mean, chasing you and throwing skulls at you.)

Hearing the build up of the ghostly sounds of the library in Thief 2 as I walked down a secret corridor behind a wall was one of my favorite memories of Thief 2. Was amazed that this game had so much detail as to create all these hard to find and well-built secret areas, as well as feeling the imminent danger of what was behind the corridor's exit door.

The haunts with dangling chain sounds were pretty scary, imo, mainly from their sounds -- so don't screw up their sounds.

But like others say, in moderation is nice -- not too overdone. I personally probably can't get too sick of the glowing shrooms and crystals, and other such decorations, though.

I hope you take the time to make Thief 4 a HUGE game. Large levels, while fully delving into everything wonderful that makes the Thief universe what it is. I'd hate for it to be a game you crank through in 15 or 20 hours leaving you with a sense that the levels were just thrown together to appease the fan community by taking you from a mansion, to a small pagan area, to a small cavern, to a castle, etc. For some reason, when I think of Thief 2, it feels like I've been there. Somehow I got absorbed into each of these worlds... and I think it's because LGS spent the time to take you on a 'journey' into each rather than just scratching the surface of them.

WVI
19th May 2009, 04:58
Surrealism is all but essential. T1 and 2 had wonderful surrealism, especially T1. FREAKY!

Oh how we loved it.

TDS fugged it all up.

*spits nonexistent drink*

Did you never make it to the Cradle?

Thieffanman
19th May 2009, 05:35
*spits nonexistent drink*

Did you never make it to the Cradle?


Second that. TDS had a *good* amount of surrealism in its own right: escaping the Cradle, The Abyssmal Gale mission (ghostly smoke on a ship filled with undead), the giant plant creatures haunting the sewers with the pagans . . .and there was more. :)

I'm one of the few TDS fans here on the list; I'll put my two cents in that TDS had the right balance of supernatural occurrences and plain-old, 'take the other guy's stuff' missions.

--Thieffanman

Neb
19th May 2009, 07:24
*spits nonexistent drink*

Did you never make it to the Cradle?

It wasn't really particularly surreal in comparison to The Dark Project.

Think surreal in the sense of an insane mansion (practically a labyrinth, complete with optical illusions), giant trees, upside-down streams of water, ancient lights that turn on when you're nearby, along with general stylistic anachronism. That kind of thing.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
19th May 2009, 15:22
Thief 4 should include a mission where you rob Lord M.C. Escher's mad castle.

Fiddlesticks
22nd May 2009, 15:07
I think all this steampunk environment and the surrealism in the game was one big positive feature which made the Thief series so unique, which seperated it from the mainstream. With setting a world into a steampunk/surrealistic environment, you have so much more possibilities. A slowfall potion would not be possible in a normal metal age and would not come accross as believable, but in a steampunk metal age it's entirely possible, because it's fiction. Garret lives in a different strange world, but this world is what makes Thief so unique for me. It has this certain feeling, if you soak up the athmosphere while playing.

Constantines Manor for instance was one of my favorite levels, it was really really random, but it worked very good and most important it was VERY unpredictable.

Psychomorph
22nd May 2009, 21:15
Surrealism for sure. Like many people here said, Constantines Manor was a great idea, the upper level with the freaky design, plants and mushrooms in the bathrooms and the swarms of flies in a creepy room (the sound alone was creepy), all that was highly entertaining.

Beeing a big fan of the original Alien movie, I love surrealism appearing under very realistic looking circumstances, which makes the effect even more intense (you know, contrast intensifies things).

Zephyr
22nd May 2009, 22:28
I think Thief wouldn't be the same without all those strange creatures, dark pagan tunnels filled with glowing mushrooms and strange plants and the mysterious haunted places. In my opinion that surrealistic magical feeling combined with the steampunk technology, dark city streets and ominous mansions makes the basis of Thief atmosphere. It was very unique, different from many other games, especially those related with fantasy. Thief managed to create a world of its own, it was first of its genre. Fantasy in Thief is very well planned and made to fit into the story.
Hopefully they manage to create the same unique feeling in Thief4. It was something really wonderful, which left a mark on me for a long time. Hopefully Burricks make a comeback :D.

Petike the Taffer
23rd May 2009, 18:55
Created surrealism

The Mechanists fit this one as well. Honestly, the industrial nightmarishness of their designs reminded me somewhat of the works of H. R. Giger. Creepy and eerie...


As for the amount of realism and surreealism : I always viewed Thief as a blend of 80 % real life grittiness and 20 % fantasy bizzarness. The overall visuals should be predominantly Late Gothic, sprinkled here and there with some blatantly Victorian elements (and of course, a believable mish-mash of both ;)). Personally, I disliked the overly Victorian vibe and visuals of Thief II, and they contributed to why I like it less than TDP and TDS. Hm, where were we... Realism and surrealism should be balanced, as any good Keeper would tell you... :D For instance, even subtle touches, like the comic-book-esque stylized skyline of the City in the background of the open-aired missions, add to the more surreal and film-noir feeling of Thief's setting. I think that even Batman or the hard-boiled characters of Sin City would sh** themselves after visiting the murky alleys and abandoned quarters of Garrett's home town... :D :cool:

So yeah : A nicely balanced stew would be the best. The City itself is a non-living protagonist of sorts, is very varied and full of paradoxes and contrasts - both majestic and scary, cosy and uncarring, drowning in riches as well as poverty, with admirably advanced industrial technology and primitive housing... A little world in intself. And that's why I love it... :cool:

Herr_Garrett
24th May 2009, 08:51
Personally, I disliked the overly Victorian vibe and visuals of Thief II

MA, in my opinion, was closer to dieselpunk both in design and erchitecture than Victorian-steampunk (the fact that it ran on steam doesn't matter here). The innovations as well: plastic stuff, 99% airtight buildings/vehicles, guns, automatons, cameras and security systems. If anything, then MA did reflect and somehow sum up the achievements of a) in our world 30 or so years b) in Thiefverse, one year. Actually this, this very brief span of one year adds much to the surrealism as well.

What I love in Thief is the insanity. Constantine's mansion isn't surreal, it's insane. So inexplicable and so beyond us that it really is chronically mad. And the best are the corridors and doors that lead into the void. Yummy!
The insanity of Murus and the whole twisted, turned-inside-out pseudo-reality of the Walled of Section is another masterpiece, along with the Maw. The Maw! Water flowing upwards? Dimension doors? Chiming ice next to screaming, hissing lava? Give me that any time of the day.

MA didn't present much in the way of such surrealism, but much more on the level of philosophy and hardcore human insanity. The ghosts in the library, Karras's plot, the hateful existence of the Servants, the slaughter of the Pagans... Food for thought, to be sure, and extremely well executed.

DS, now had some very good points concerning surrealism and insanity, but sadly almost every one of them was executed poorly. Shalebridge Cradle was one of the greatest scares of my life, but with hindsight, it could have been much, much more scary (the fact that it still is undisputably the most frightening level in game industry tells much about the aforesaid industry...). The statues, the hideousness of Gamall, the mystery of the Enfocers - all good ideas, very badly done. Very badly. But still, the seed of it was in there.

This is the path EM has to follow.

Psychomorph
24th May 2009, 12:29
The innovations as well: plastic stuff, 99% airtight buildings/vehicles, guns, automatons, cameras and security systems. If anything, then MA did reflect and somehow sum up the achievements of a) in our world 30 or so years b) in Thiefverse, one year.
This was never meant to be the normal state of things in Thief2, it was all Karras' inventions, he taught his order to handle and repair things, but he alone invented them. Without Karras T2's techincal standart wouldn't have been much different compared to T1.


What I love in Thief is the insanity. Constantine's mansion isn't surreal, it's insane. So inexplicable and so beyond us that it really is chronically mad.
I think the insanity is something that describes the Pagans. I always saw the pagans as beeing slightly mind sick, totally insane.

xXFl4meXx
25th May 2009, 04:15
I think the insanity is something that describes the Pagans. I always saw the pagans as beeing slightly mind sick, totally insane.

If you think your sane, then you are insane :poke:

IDNeon
16th Jun 2009, 07:15
Thief 1 certainly had glowing mushrooms, make sure to use them with great effect in this game too, very surreal and beautiful ;)

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 07:34
Yes, they were in TMA as well, and we need to bring them back!

jtr7
16th Jun 2009, 08:28
'Shrooooooms aglowin'!





Not 'shroom-specific, but a cross-link:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88571

kabatta
16th Jun 2009, 08:48
Shroom tea is a winner.

DarthEnder
16th Jun 2009, 08:55
Was it Metal Age where you could just shoot those mushrooms with a broadhead to destroy them, or is it only FM that let you do that?

jtr7
16th Jun 2009, 09:03
Only in an FM, but in real life it wouldn't stop the glow.

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 12:12
This discussion led me to write this parody (the thought process went shrooms-->shroomin-->burnin-->we be burnin by sean paul-->we be thievin)

Listen to this music while you read, and imagine it's his accent singing it as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkIzQIKleSk

We be thievin By Hypevosa (6/16/09 8:00AM)

Pickpocket the keys and we be thievin yo… (thievin yo)
Make sure no one sees then we be leavin yo… (leavin yo)
Take a look at the guards now dey be fumblin yo… (fumbling yo)
Now we on de roofs we get to take it slow… (take it slow)

So when you see the guard’s a gloatin don’t promote ‘im,
cause he ain’t caught me, ya know I smoked ‘im,
I’m da best thief in all de nation, and ain’t never seen incarceration,
It for me thievin support an’ for the rentin’
An’ the tools that I’m usin to make de thousan’ an’
Don’t got other occupations,
soon I’ll retire, gotta have patience…

Everynight, we be thievin, self-concealin only guards are left awake,
we be stealin, none believin in the massive ‘mount we make.
All dat gold and silver, diamonds, jewels off to the fence we take.
Realize it, lost all don’t deny it!

The goods these stores make, it’s amazin
Flashbombs for sure’ll keep they eyes ablazin,
Not de only in my occupation,
But de only one with Keeper education
So I know where to go, to make me not show,
When to move real quick and when to move slow,
Ace with de bow, hit anyt’in,
A torch from 50 yard wit’out strugglin
If eva I seen den I know I can take ‘im
Cause keeper trainin means master swordsman
But I don’ eva need ta fight,
Cause I use the shadows to keep outta sight
Always get all the gold and no one knows it,
Even find all the bits they think is secret
And, gone into da night, by rooftop in the moon light

Again, we be thievin, self-concealin only guards are left awake,
we be stealin, none believin in the massive ‘mount we make.
All dat gold and silver, diamonds, jewels off to the fence we take.
Realize it, lost all don’t deny it!

Pickpocket the keys and we be thievin yo… (thievin yo)
Make sure no one sees then we be leavin yo… (leavin yo)
Take a look at the guards now dey be fumblin yo… (fumbling yo)
Now we on de roofs we get to take it slow… (take it slow)

So when you see the guard’s a gloatin don’t promote ‘im,
cause he ain’t caught me, ya know I smoked ‘im,
I’m da best thief in all de nation, and ain’t never seen incarceration,
It for me thievin support an’ for the rentin’
An’ the tools that I’m usin to make de thousan’ an’
Don’t got other occupations,
soon I’ll retire, gotta have patience…

Everynight, we be thievin, self-concealin only guards are left awake,
we be stealin, none believin in the massive ‘mount we make.
All dat gold and silver, diamonds, jewels off to the fence we take.
Realize it, lost all don’t deny it!

Again, we be thievin, self-concealin only guards are left awake,
we be stealin, none believin in the massive ‘mount we make.
All dat gold and silver, diamonds, jewels off to the fence we take.
Realize it, lost all deny it!

Pickpocket the keys and we be thievin yo… (thievin yo)
Make sure no one sees then we be leavin yo… (leavin yo)
Take a look at the guards now dey be fumblin yo… (fumbling yo)
Now we on de roofs we get to take it slow… (take it slow)

Nothke
16th Jun 2009, 23:08
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalotus_olearius

not looking like, but its bioluminscent. so its real

Nothke
16th Jun 2009, 23:12
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxfire_(bioluminescence)

this one was actually used for lighting in an early submarine. hm, reminds me of cetus amicus!

KaiserJohan
16th Jun 2009, 23:15
Yes bring back those mushrooms

Nothke
16th Jun 2009, 23:24
http://www.rincondelmisterio.com/wp-content/uploads/hongos5.jpg

a Foxfire, this is real. I would really like to have those

knut der barbar
28th May 2010, 15:21
I dont want to see fireball-throwing mages at each corner of the city like in TDS. this is not spell-force or WoW. if magic and surrealism is used its supposed to be creative and cryptic, not like a bearded fellow swinging his wand, you know? surrealism is a good thing if its atmospheric and in some degree. dont distend it!

Psychomorph
28th May 2010, 23:00
I dont want to see fireball-throwing mages at each corner of the city like in TDS. this is not spell-force or WoW.
I totally hated that about TDS, it went into the opposite direction as it should have been.

jtr7
28th May 2010, 23:50
Everyone had wands, too. What happened to somatic spell-casting? Why were Keepers using wands in-game, but writing symbols in air in the cutscenes? The Hammerite Priests never had stick-and-gemstone wands before (there was a Builder's Chisel and the Holy Symbol hammers!), and they usually cast spells with their hands when not dealing with monstrosities requiring the heavy guns. Dyan had a staff, which was only mentioned in TDS, but she was made to seem no different than the other Shamans in battle.

massimilianogoi
29th May 2010, 06:41
Do you welcome the return of surrealism in Thief IV?
The strange, the unusual, the unknown, the deviation from the norm and the hidden beauty behind the fearful and grotesque etc?

Discuss... :cool:

What do you mean for surrealism, Viki?

However, there's an error in the title: Anomolies, instead of anomalies.

Tryst
29th May 2010, 13:19
Surrealism was part of the whole Thief series, without it, it wouldn't be the same game. The Pagans territory was about as surreal as it gets but it created that spooky atmosphere that we've come to enjoy in this series.

What would you prefer to see?
1. Dark damp tunnels with no lighting apart from the occasional torch and rats scurrying about.
2. Tunnles lit by strange substances and wierd creatures roaming around.

massimilianogoi
29th May 2010, 14:22
Surrealism was part of the whole Thief series, without it, it wouldn't be the same game. The Pagans territory was about as surreal as it gets but it created that spooky atmosphere that we've come to enjoy in this series.

What would you prefer to see?
1. Dark damp tunnels with no lighting apart from the occasional torch and rats scurrying about.
2. Tunnles lit by strange substances and wierd creatures roaming around.

1, definitively.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
29th May 2010, 17:13
However, there's an error in the title: Anomolies, instead of anomalies.

Ooops, sorry for typo there. Corrected. Thank you.



http://www.rincondelmisterio.com/wp-content/uploads/hongos5.jpg

a Foxfire, this is real. I would really like to have those

Beautiful! :)

massimilianogoi
29th May 2010, 18:15
I'm still waiting for the answer :)

You meant surrealism things like the Constantine's mansion? Or the apebeast? Clearly they aren't in this reality (unfortunately :( ) But still I have to fix in my mind, before answering, what you mean precisely about surrealism. To me surrealism is a Dalì's painting:

http://www.usm.maine.edu/~rabrams/DaliPM.jpg

(Great respect for this Master).

jtr7
29th May 2010, 21:02
Surrealism is dream-like. Things do not strictly follow physics or the ways of normally-perceived and predictable reality, and the Trickster/Constantine fills his world of Chaos with surreal qualities. Water floats in the air but you can swim in it as though it was normal for a cube of water to hang without perceivable containment. Outer-space exists indoors in rooms but there is air and normal gravity. Snow and magma rest next to each other without affecting each other. Humans and beasts are one. Like dreams, the surreal world is freed from many laws, but feel familiar or plausible until one awakes. And with the Hand Mages, rocks float and fly, fire doesn't burn them, water is breathed as air, etc. It's the stuff of myths and strange fantasy, like Fritz Leiber's and H.P. Lovecraft's works, and some of Umberto Eco's writings of descents into madness, all of which are well mixed into Thief, more so than classic fantasy with wizards and potions, or the Dadaism and optical illusion stuff also in the games. The soundscape, the ambients of the abandoned areas, the haunted areas, and the woodsie realms, are quite reminiscent of the nightmares or eeriness of movies and audio recordings of stories, and not reality.

clearing
4th Jun 2010, 02:35
From abandoned mission by Ycatx
http://darkfate.ru/files/fan-missions/Thief2/Ruins_of_Originia/untitled/screenshots/sfac_ai_mu01.jpg
http://darkfate.ru/files/fan-missions/Thief2/Ruins_of_Originia/untitled/screenshots/sfac_ai_mu02.jpg

xDarknessFallsx
4th Jun 2010, 03:26
^---- lol!

massimilianogoi
4th Jun 2010, 10:58
YcatX... such a genius... Nobody had the fantastic creativity he own, I'm sorry for his latest vicissitudes...

From his YouTube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbFDnCh5JdI

Master_Ezio/Garrett_Thief
9th Jun 2010, 22:22
:eek:
*spits nonexistent drink*

Did you never make it to the Cradle?

Oh my gods the cradle first scared the living f*** outta me! :( I actually had my older sister (yes sister) do it, the voices were creepy
:eek:

HeyLight!
9th Jun 2010, 22:51
:eek:

Oh my gods the cradle first scared the living f*** outta me! :( I actually had my older sister (yes sister) do it, the voices were creepy
:eek:

A woman playing thief!? Blasphemy!

jtr7
9th Jun 2010, 23:28
Uh oh!

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=95809

Tryst
10th Jun 2010, 03:53
A woman playing thief!? Blasphemy!
I hope you're not too attached to those parts dangling between your legs, The female taffers here will no doubt relieve you of them for such words :D

Vae
10th Jun 2010, 05:12
I hope you're not too attached to those parts dangling between your legs, The female taffers here will no doubt relieve you of them for such words :D

Good luck, HeyLight is a female...:lol:

HeyLight!
10th Jun 2010, 11:46
Actually, I'm both (I mean, usually i'm a guy, but every so often my friend (who is a girl) post comments a me). That particular comment was by her, and this isn't, but I'm pretty sure she was being ironic.

massimilianogoi
10th Jun 2010, 15:01
bwhhahahahaha, be aware: by now you'll be attacked for having been a sexist >=D LOL

Lady Rowena is a name that makes trademark in the women Thief World. Yes, maybe in the gameplay they aren't good as us, but I assure that in level of design they are awesome. Another great female name: Tiens.

esme
10th Jun 2010, 16:42
bwhhahahahaha, be aware: by now you'll be attacked for having been a sexist >=D LOL

Lady Rowena is a name that makes trademark in the women Thief World. Yes, maybe in the gameplay they aren't good as us, but I assure that in level of design they are awesome. Another great female name: Tiens.

OI ! :mad:

massimilianogoi
10th Jun 2010, 17:03
Are you a woman? If it is, do you accept a challenge with me in multiplayer? http://i48.tinypic.com/11tooj7.jpg You can chose what mission you want.

Blue Ghost
10th Jun 2010, 17:24
:eek:

Oh my gods the cradle first scared the living f*** outta me! :( I actually had my older sister (yes sister) do it, the voices were creepy
:eek:
I've told this story on the old Thief-3 BBS, but it bears repeating. I played the Cradle as an adult in my office just after lunch with sunshine streaming in, and I was still scared! I kept wanting to type in a cheat that would give me an M-249 Squad Assaault Weapon (infantry light machinegun) before I went upstairs and opened that door! :lol:

Tryst
10th Jun 2010, 18:09
Try playing the original Witchhaven, they had the attention span of a player down to a fine art. A ghostly face would come at the screen fast, screaming and after the second of third time, you were expecting it but it never came until your attention was dropping again. It never failed to make you jump. I played the game in the dark because of the abience of the game in general which made it worse. After an hour of this, I had to shut off and go make a coffee and had the jitters for two hours afterward.

Thief has never scared me that much and the Cradle could have been a lot more scary IMO. I'd actually love to play another game that could scare me as much as Witchhaven did. The problem is that most game companies won't do it because the game would get tagged with an 18 rating.

massimilianogoi
10th Jun 2010, 20:56
... After an hour of this, I had to shut off and go make a coffee and had the jitters for two hours afterward...

Maybe it was too much coffee?? :p

jtr7
10th Jun 2010, 23:08
If it's "BOO!" followed immediately by a jump, it's not horror, it's boo-tactics, and it doesn't even need monsters or horror elements to work. I find it irritating not satisfying.

esme
10th Jun 2010, 23:14
Are you a woman? If it is, do you accept a challenge with me in multiplayer? http://i48.tinypic.com/11tooj7.jpg You can chose what mission you want.
last time I checked yes

as far as I'm aware there are no multiplayer stealth games and I stopped playing anything else when I found Thief

but I find your equating of gameplay with multiplayer interesting

besides I don't think my reactions are up to playing a deathmatch any more, I'm old enough to be your mum and possibly even your gran

jtr7
10th Jun 2010, 23:25
Are ya back, esme? Or were you just taffing in the same neighborhood? :D

massimilianogoi
11th Jun 2010, 00:02
last time I checked yes

as far as I'm aware there are no multiplayer stealth games and I stopped playing anything else when I found Thief

but I find your equating of gameplay with multiplayer interesting

besides I don't think my reactions are up to playing a deathmatch any more, I'm old enough to be your mum and possibly even your gran

Don't you know that there is a good Thief 2 modifications that lets you playing in multilplayer? :)

esme
11th Jun 2010, 11:39
Are ya back, esme? Or were you just taffing in the same neighborhood? :DI'm still reading the forum, just not posting, except in the cases of rampant sexism like this


Don't you know that there is a good Thief 2 modifications that lets you playing in multilplayer? :)I would hardly call it good

massimilianogoi
11th Jun 2010, 14:45
I would hardly call it good

Have you already tried it? O_o

esme
11th Jun 2010, 15:10
no and I don't particularly want to, I've told you you are going to win what more do you want ?

I just disagree with your assertion that males are generally better at gameplay than females

Herr_Garrett
11th Jun 2010, 17:35
no and I don't particularly want to, I've told you you are going to win what more do you want ?

I just disagree with your assertion that males are generally better at gameplay than females

Well, what do you expect from a chauvinistic, Nazi sadist somewhat arrested in development?

esme
11th Jun 2010, 18:13
and that is even worse herr_garrett, if you disagree then argue your point don't just namecall

Tryst
11th Jun 2010, 19:20
OK, flames aside guys.

When it comes to the female version of Garrett, doesn't anyone remember T2X?

jtr7
11th Jun 2010, 20:52
She wasn't Garrett and wasn't trying to be, and they intentionally had her trained by a Keeper so Garrett wouldn't seem less exceptional. Garrett's unique experiences and education and preternatural abilities shouldn't show up unexplained in other characters and make Garrett look like nothing special. People already are quick to dismiss his qualities and try to dumb him down, and a new character will have to fictionally make sense as a non-dumbed-down and unusually gifted character. It's not a matter of gender, it's a matter of respecting the fiction and creating a new character that doesn't diminish Garrett while not being too convenient in granting the new character exceptional abilities. A different timeline and/or locale provides enough distance, but I'd still like to see more of The City in Garrett's timeline. There's also the constant threat of a female character made sexualized, and made to be seen, and made to be shown off...

massimilianogoi
11th Jun 2010, 23:31
no and I don't particularly want to, I've told you you are going to win what more do you want ?

I just disagree with your assertion that males are generally better at gameplay than females

Then why you would hadly call it good, if you neither have tried it? -_- Alot of people enjoy the multiplayer expansion.

Just take a look here:

http://www.youtube.com/v/BpqNLKY8gow

xAcerbusx
12th Jun 2010, 06:07
Getting back to the subject of surrealism in Thief...

"Balance in all things."

I like some of the atmospherics that Pagan areas and haunted locales provide... but as I've said in similar threads, I'd prefer haunts, zombies and the like to be left out of it. Not because they're bad or anything, but because that's time I could be spending thieving. Not avoiding annoying overpowered ghosts or haunts or skeletons or what-have-you.

minus0ne
12th Jun 2010, 09:04
Getting back to the subject of surrealism in Thief...

"Balance in all things."

I like some of the atmospherics that Pagan areas and haunted locales provide... but as I've said in similar threads, I'd prefer haunts, zombies and the like to be left out of it. Not because they're bad or anything, but because that's time I could be spending thieving. Not avoiding annoying overpowered ghosts or haunts or skeletons or what-have-you.
Left out of pagan areas, or left out completely? If so, how do you think that impacts the atmosphere of haunted locales? I think those elements are integral to the thieving.

While I agree TMA was overall a better and more focused game, I did miss the more nerve wrecking moments in TDP. It's in part those experiences which drew me into playing Thief. The City is of course at the heart of Thief, but what lurks deep inside, below and on the outskirts is also at the heart of The City, which makes it an integral part of Thief. What sets Garrett apart from the common pickpocket is not just his uncanny ability to rob guarded estates and bank vaults, but locations seemingly untouched, or actually corrupted by time, places few other than Garrett will ever see and make it out alive. Garrett doesn't just rob barons, he 'robs gods (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_205/6150-Robbing-Gods)'. ;)

jtr7
12th Jun 2010, 09:24
Other than atmosphere, there's no difference between undead and the living AIs when it comes to sneaking and stealing. The undead actually provide an AI you don't have to feel bad about taking out, and there's no punishment for it at all. They are more unnerving, but they are actually easier to deal with. The rest is in your head. Garrett isn't just a special guy that steals things.

deathshadow
12th Jun 2010, 10:36
The lack of surrealism is just another of the things that made TDS suck for me... and it wasn't just the levels like "the sword" either...

There really was nothing 'mysterious' or unusual about ANY of the levels in deadly shadows - even the cradle was relatively mundane. The entire 'feel' of the game was more 'generic fantasy setting number 3' than the oddball steampunk mix of the first two. Not once did I go "What is that?" and NEVER get an answer like we did with the 'energy collector' type towers from T1.

The first two games established a unique world with some truly bizzare and unique locations - Deadly Shadows threw that away as if the people working on it in terms of level design didn't even GET the point of the first two.

So hell yeah, bring on the surrealism - and take a look at fan missions like Broken Triad or A Night In Rocksburg 3 to get an idea of what I mean - both T2 fan levels being a billion times better than anything TDS is even CAPABLE of.

So hell yea

esme
12th Jun 2010, 11:57
this was interesting if you want surrealism

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627634.800-impossible-figures-brought-to-life-in-virtual-worlds.html

--EDIT--

Then why you would hadly call it good, if you neither have tried it? -_- Alot of people enjoy the multiplayer expansion.

Just take a look here:

http://www.youtube.com/v/BpqNLKY8gow
yes, I've seen it, I do do a little research, if you look through my previous posts you'll find I'm not a fan of multiplayer games in general

jtr7
12th Jun 2010, 12:00
this was interesting if you want surrealism

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627634.800-impossible-figures-brought-to-life-in-virtual-worlds.html

Intrigued!

massimilianogoi
12th Jun 2010, 14:11
this was interesting if you want surrealism

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627634.800-impossible-figures-brought-to-life-in-virtual-worlds.html

Neat!!!

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Jun 2010, 20:00
The lack of surrealism is just another of the things that made TDS suck for me... and it wasn't just the levels like "the sword" either...

There really was nothing 'mysterious' or unusual about ANY of the levels in deadly shadows - even the cradle was relatively mundane. The entire 'feel' of the game was more 'generic fantasy setting number 3' than the oddball steampunk mix of the first two. Not once did I go "What is that?" and NEVER get an answer like we did with the 'energy collector' type towers from T1.

The first two games established a unique world with some truly bizzare and unique locations - Deadly Shadows threw that away as if the people working on it in terms of level design didn't even GET the point of the first two.

So hell yeah, bring on the surrealism - and take a look at fan missions like Broken Triad or A Night In Rocksburg 3 to get an idea of what I mean - both T2 fan levels being a billion times better than anything TDS is even CAPABLE of.

So hell yea

Absolutely agree with all you say.

For T4 should return to the original games and bring back the unique surrealist world we all loved so much.

Long live glowing mushrooms! :cool:

Tryst
12th Jun 2010, 20:17
Long live glowing mushrooms! :cool:
You're just biased because that's normal for your home :)

I loved the Pagan levels in T2 though, "Trail of Blood" was about the best IMO and the hardest part of dealing with the Pagan areas was trying to stay hidden with those faerie lights floating about.

xAcerbusx
12th Jun 2010, 22:10
Left out of pagan areas, or left out completely? If so, how do you think that impacts the atmosphere of haunted locales? I think those elements are integral to the thieving.


They are.

However, I would humbly submit that less haunts, zombies and the like makes the few times they're actually used in the game more impactful.

In other words... if they've stopped being scary... and become annoying (as they did for me on the Bonehoard) then they aren't truly serving their purpose.

Thief II had easily the scariest moment in any Thief game for me, simply because the game had no "zombie" mission... so when you reach the end of that hidden passage and hear those noises coming from Gervaisius' Library... it's absolutely terrifying. That is undead / supernatural being used effectively. Not overpopulating a particular area, getting in your way, more than anything, shuffling around like typical A.I.s. That's not scary. That's inconvenient.

Vae
13th Jun 2010, 00:10
If you felt that way about the Bonehoard after multiple plays, then I understand. If you had felt this way the first time you'd played it, then you have a problem immersing yourself. The slow moving hoard of zombies in the deep, vast tomb of the Bonehoard, captured the magical surrealism of THIEF, in a superbly crafted atmosphere. If immersed, one really feels the otherworldlyness of this foreboding place...one is unsure of exactly where they are, or what could possibly happen at any moment. This is a place that separates those who are willing to transport themselves into the magical unknown...this is quintessential THIEF.

But even a legendary place like the Bonehoard can lose much of its' intrigue and suspense, if visited many times. This is because once the player knows the area, understands, and is able to predict the responses of humans, creatures, and the undead...it becomes familiar and controllable for player. This gives the player too much control over their environment, diminishing the experience.

Some of this intrigue and suspense can be preserved (and even enhanced, on the first play-through), if randomization would be implemented in the game. This would include locks, traps, loot, and A.I behavior. Imagine if the zombies in the Bonehoard had randomized, unpredictable behavior and movement speed...some of the traps that you discovered the first time through are now different, and in other places...the loot has now been moved to unknown places, providing a new treasure hunt every time...:)

jtr7
13th Jun 2010, 00:41
It's been awhile since it was mentioned, so I'll repeat it here for good measure: Old zombies should be slow and struggling to move, even when hurrying along, while fresh zombies should be quicker and more agile, but never move like the living. Randomization in areas where the devs choose to have the mere presence of undead could work well, but they'd still have to choose a type for specific areas to create the specific challenge or keep to the fiction. Difficulty levels could mean more or less fresh zombies. If I went all out and disregarded development limitations, I'd suggest zombies missing limbs, and moving accordingly, including pushing or pulling themselves along the floor on their backs, sides, or fronts, etc. Thief Gold had a necromancer that reanimated animals and insects, so those could be included, especially if corrupt Hand Mage Necromancers are involved. Twitching, but not patrolling or chasing undead insects, like giant spiders on their backs could provide uncomfortable atmosphere, and if they could hurt you if you bumped them. Bring back the zombies with the biting bug clouds swirling around them, which makes it harder to drop them with a backstab.

Vae
13th Jun 2010, 03:57
Fresh zombies would be fine (as long as they're not modeled after the ones in TDS...:mad:). Different variations of undead types would be welcome, but what is more important is that they may behave differently even though they look the same. This would be invisible to the player at first, until revealed by careful watching or by surprise.

For example, with a movement value from 1-20 (Garrett walks at 10, runs at 20):

Old zombies (scaled with difficulty):

Walking - 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 1-6
Running - 4-7, 5-8, 6-9, 7-10

New zombies (scaled with difficulty):

Walking - 4-6, 5-7, 6-8, 7-9
Running - 7-11, 8-12, 9-13,10-14

In addition, you could have three different behavioral sub-types randomly generated (1-3):

1) Drifting, tranced-out zombie - The classic THIEF zombie...the more consistent, and predictably moving zombie.

2) Confused, erratic zombie - The more inconsistent and often unpredictable zombie...prone to intermittent dormant states and erratic actions.

3) Aggressive, angry zombie - The noticeably more angry and alert zombie...could possibly provoke a fight with another undead just by bumping into it.

xDarknessFallsx
13th Jun 2010, 04:53
this was interesting if you want surrealism

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627634.800-impossible-figures-brought-to-life-in-virtual-worlds.html

--EDIT--

yes, I've seen it, I do do a little research, if you look through my previous posts you'll find I'm not a fan of multiplayer games in general
That was pretty cool. Can't wait to see some of those type of objects sitting on a table waiting for me to pick it up. I can see a twisted Thief 4 level maybe having some high-end loot objects using this technique ;) Would be fun just to run around such a piece of loot for a while, tempting us to snag it, but reluctant to because it is so beautiiful to look at. There was an MC Escher like puzzle or two in God of War 3. But those were level-design based, rather than object-based. I'm not sure if they used the same sort of methodology, but it was pretty cool. It gave me a taste... now I want to see a bit more. Not overdone, though.

PS: I was reminded today why I don't typically like Multiplayer being implemented in games that are meant to be single player. You see, Red Dead Redemption's primary purpose is single-player, but it has a MP element tacked onto it. Rockstar just released their first patch for RDR. Guess what it addresses? Yep, a bunch of MP issues. Even though there are a TON of wiggy bugs in the SP game they need to fix, we now we must appease all the MP nonsense. Oh, and Rockstar is quite vocal that they will be releasing MP co-op mission soon. Yippee! Can't swim in the game? No problem, live with it. NPCs being invisible? Live with it. The same basic AI used for all animals? Live with it. Lack of variety in missions, side-missions and NCP behavior? Live with it. I have a list a mile long of fixes this game should implement, but probably never will because they have a multi-player component.

MP is already sucking up all their resources. I image every patch and expansion forthcoming for this game will be MP, like what typically happens with every other MP game. Making MP balanced, issue-free, continually fun for people, etc. becomes a priority and takes too many resources away from SP development. The SP crowd pretty much gets tossed aside to appease the vocal MP crowd who can't live with cheaters, bugs, firewall issues, imbalanced gameplay, the same set of maps, new player skins, etc.

So, not only would MP likely be boring in a game like Thief, Eidos Montreal would pretty much boot single-player to the curb post-launch if they including multi-player in T4. Their "Thief IV: Gold," if they ever made one, would probably simply be a new multi-player mansion for people to go frolic in.

minus0ne
14th Jun 2010, 03:34
They are.

However, I would humbly submit that less haunts, zombies and the like makes the few times they're actually used in the game more impactful.

In other words... if they've stopped being scary... and become annoying (as they did for me on the Bonehoard) then they aren't truly serving their purpose.

Thief II had easily the scariest moment in any Thief game for me, simply because the game had no "zombie" mission... so when you reach the end of that hidden passage and hear those noises coming from Gervaisius' Library... it's absolutely terrifying. That is undead / supernatural being used effectively. Not overpopulating a particular area, getting in your way, more than anything, shuffling around like typical A.I.s. That's not scary. That's inconvenient.
I wholly agree they shouldn't be overused, just not dismissed either. If you take TDS for example (okay, bad example for obvious reasons, but bear with me) it was clear that this was a version of The City which was given the Disney treatment, in more ways than one. Turning what is a mysterious and surreal place which manages to surprise, intrigue and scare you at every other turn, into a Dickensian-Victorian parody of itself. Of course they must've felt this at some point in development, so they threw in the Abysmal Gale (and admittedly The Cradle), but overall it was abundantly clear this was a game in which The City was disconnected from its surreal elements, and the game was poorer for it.

I think we can agree that TDP had perhaps a bit too much (nonetheless it made for the best introduction to Thief possible), Gold had it about right, and TMA perhaps not enough.

Zombies, haunts and other creatures are just a part of Thief's surrealism though, but an important part.


this was interesting if you want surrealism

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627634.800-impossible-figures-brought-to-life-in-virtual-worlds.html
Interesting! I wonder if they can do an Ames Room (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ames_room) with this, but if they can do M.C. Escher I don't see why not. I'd love another Escheresque mission like The Sword, and hopefully some other touches of it here and there.

massimilianogoi
14th Jun 2010, 14:30
That was pretty cool. Can't wait to see some of those type of objects sitting on a table waiting for me to pick it up. I can see a twisted Thief 4 level maybe having some high-end loot objects using this technique ;) Would be fun just to run around such a piece of loot for a while, tempting us to snag it, but reluctant to because it is so beautiiful to look at.

Something like this could be present in the Constantine's mansion! :D Do you imagine that? It would have been absolutely gorgeous!!

Jack Lantern
14th Jun 2010, 15:17
Some of what you folks have been talkin' about brings a tear to me eye. :)

I'm happy to see how dedicated you guys are to the games, and how important the atmosphere is.

Ceri
14th Jun 2010, 16:23
I'd be happy to sacrifice realism if it means making the game more fun.

What I wanted to say has already been stated, so that's it.

Tryst
14th Jun 2010, 21:19
I'd be happy to sacrifice realism if it means making the game more fun.

What I wanted to say has already been stated, so that's it.
Game... Real... Does not compute... :D

xDarknessFallsx
15th Jun 2010, 02:35
Something like this could be present in the Constantine's mansion! :D Do you imagine that? It would have been absolutely gorgeous!!
Yes! Exactly what I was thinking!! It might be bad for a game like Thief to have an object like this because I'll just want to stand there and admire it. I'd probably get caught and hauled off by guards while observing it in a state of wonder.

As they pull me away, my heels drag across the floor; my little Garrett arms and hands outsretched, reaching for the beauty; my little Garrett voice musters up enough strength to let out a solemn and dejected, "Whyyyy?........"

Tryst
17th Jun 2010, 09:43
Interesting! I wonder if they can do an Ames Room (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ames_room) with this, but if they can do M.C. Escher I don't see why not. I'd love another Escheresque mission like The Sword, and hopefully some other touches of it here and there.
I've just done the Sword mission to remind myself. It would be cool to have stairs the apparently go up do actually go down, look up a stair well to the floor above to see guards walking upside down on the ceiling and such, it would be totally mad but really cool.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
25th Feb 2011, 12:56
^
I love it when things are "strange". :D

okatotaia
1st Mar 2011, 13:25
i think there are lots of potentials in the pagans storyline. its definately a pitiful thing to kill a humble, funny-speaking pagan, but their radical religion and scary monsters did bring some colour to the game. I wonder why developers put so little effort in it, it left me curious in so many ways. The biggest fun in the THief games is that you are not an undefeatable warrior, quite vulnerable instead, and there are many scary and deadly things out there that you have to hide from. Huge monsters that can see in the dark, moving trees that growl behind your back, or monsters that can run faster than you can etc would freshen up the realistic guard+stonebuilding concept. Its definately a unique thing that watermarks the Thief series. I would be glad to see a well made, satisfying role of the pagan faction in Thief4.

Hicks
2nd Mar 2011, 21:56
Surealism is essential, I remember first playing Thief and being puzzled at how I was being taken out of castles and manors and put in fantastical locations with weird and wonderful inhabitants - well maybe not wonderful but certainly odd in the shape of the craymen. Only after replaying again and again did it start to sink in that while the game was called Thief and that was Garret's chosen profession he was plucked out of obscurity by the Keepers with the intention being that he would be one of them so it does make sense that this is the overall focus for the game - for the nature to change and morph beyond just simple thievery in the world of men, or to be more exact Garret trying to live his life as he chooses but always being brought by fate back into the Keepers plans. Thief was magnificent at toying with the players comfort zone, something I did miss in Thief II until it made sense in the way that TDP did, just a new set of unusual circumstances to adapt to. TDS did try but the odds were against it.

I'd love to see the worlds in certain areas morph around you, for architecture to change and puzzle the player in a cataclysm. A couple of Morrowind style luminous mushrooms wouldn't go amiss either! There's no reason to be entrenched in archetypes and strictly adhere to a certain Steampunk look, play with it and integrate other influences please. Suprise and amaze the player.

Platinumoxicity
2nd Mar 2011, 22:04
I think it would be great to see what kind of communities the craymen have. In Thief 1 we only saw a random hermit crayman in it's own damp little cave, and sometimes small groups of them. But we never got to see how they live and interact with eachother.

Their lair could be this weird combination of an underground fishing village and an animal hive. Sort of like a human settlement built by beasts.

Tryst
2nd Mar 2011, 22:57
I must admit that after the mundane background of the other missions in TDS, I did hope that the Pagan mission for the Jacknals Paw would depict a more surreal background that we have come to expect from Pagan areas. Instead, we find pagans living in old ruined buildings, something that went completely against the Pagan canon since it was the domain of "Manfools" that they would have shunned.

The Trail of Blood mission that I mentioned earlier in this thread gave us more of a true view of Pagans, living in trees and surrounded by nature with sprites floating about. The lack of torches really made those missions more difficult. Timing your moves with patrolling Pagans and the sprites that lit the surrounding area meant that you had to think more instead of just firing a water arrow at a torch so you can move unseen in darkness.

In all, the surreal aspect of Thief lends more weight to thinking about what you are doing instead of stocking up with water arrows and forging ahead. Glyphs, magic and all manner of strange things are part of the Thief background so to lose the surreal aspect would be to lose part of the game itself.

Yaphy
2nd Mar 2011, 23:48
Ever seen Echocrome? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLJiv9Aeo2c&feature=related
It's quite old so you might wanna look at the sequel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXy2f3s9Y-s

xDarknessFallsx
3rd Mar 2011, 06:25
--

Platinumoxicity
3rd Mar 2011, 13:07
I must admit that after the mundane background of the other missions in TDS, I did hope that the Pagan mission for the Jacknals Paw would depict a more surreal background that we have come to expect from Pagan areas. Instead, we find pagans living in old ruined buildings, something that went completely against the Pagan canon since it was the domain of "Manfools" that they would have shunned.

Well it's not really canon at all. The reason why pagans were inserted in the City was because of the City hub that connected eery mission area to the streets. If there would have been just a free-roam City and the missions would've been separated, any mission could have been anywhere, even outside the City. Cragscleft, the pagan village and Markham's Isle can be far away from the city because there is no travel part between the missions.

Ion Storm insisted on having a half-arsed faction respect-o-meter and pagans as one faction. That's why they had to put pagans in the City. In Thief 2 there were a few lone agents in the City that were involved in the conspiracy with Mosely. They were there because they had to, not because they wanted to. But the story forcing someone to do something is far from the game designers forcing someone to do something. And that's why I think that the way the pagans were portrayed in TDS can be considered as non-canon.

Plus, Karras exterminated all the pagans he could find. In the City and outside it anywhere he could find them. Their god was dead. Their spiritual guide and protector was dead. They had shriveled into a small group hiding in the forests. Unless they breed like somalian welfare bums, there's no way they could have been represented in the City in such great numbers and zero subtlety.

Voodoo
3rd Mar 2011, 17:42
Explain Somalian welfare bums?.

Platinumoxicity
3rd Mar 2011, 19:02
Okay it's more like an inside thing for us here in Finland... by that I mean an almost exclusively specific ethnic group immigrating to an industrial nation to exploit the weak laws around social services and welfare, and for example get so many kids that they can live like regular middle class people without ever having to go to work because they get 20 times more welfare benefits by having the kids than a local gas station worker with a broken leg gets when he's unable to work.

But that's not the discussion here. It's just so weird that right after the genocide that the Mechanists conducted, the pagan presence has increased 10-fold instead of significantly decreasing. :scratch: Did all the exiled jews move back to Germany right after the nazis were defeated? I don't think so. Or actually more like: Did all the exiled jews move right back to that one country they hate and would never want to live in, right after the nazis were defeated? And not speaking about Germany here.

jtr7
3rd Mar 2011, 20:44
Diaspora.

wojbik
3rd Mar 2011, 20:51
Glowing mushrooms plz. Because they're just so awesome.
This funny lighting things like T1 and T2 plz. I don't know why, but it always looks great in City.
Zombies plz. They was so funny :D

JacktheBox
8th Mar 2011, 00:10
I don't think realism has any place in games. That's all I'll say, sure realistic characters and (maybe) realistic physics is nice, but as a general hand on, realism on games is just bad.

jtr7
8th Mar 2011, 01:37
Escapism into other worlds for the win!

KoStA
15th Mar 2011, 20:56
http://iruntheinternet.com/lulzdump/images/reality-worst-game-ever-motivational-1260822857e.jpg

Glowing mushrooms awesomness!

Lady_Of_The_Vine
22nd Mar 2011, 00:40
^
Haha! :D

Tryst
22nd Mar 2011, 02:32
http://iruntheinternet.com/lulzdump/images/reality-worst-game-ever-motivational-1260822857e.jpg

Glowing mushrooms awesomness!
The only good thing about that game is that the monitor is so big and the graphics are awesome but the game really sucks big time.

Platinumoxicity
22nd Mar 2011, 09:01
Reality is a porn movie. Some chapters have some action, and everything else in between is just total crap. :D

KoStA
23rd Mar 2011, 23:04
I do think it's a pretty good benchmark of immersion though, plus it hasn't been "dumbed down for the masses" it's actually ridiculously hard to master. :)

Hehe, perhaps i ought to finish the game atleast once (I'm not suicidal)

Now I've made my brain hurt

DarkDagger
27th Mar 2011, 09:16
I don't think realism has any place in games. That's all I'll say, sure realistic characters and (maybe) realistic physics is nice, but as a general hand on, realism on games is just bad.

Totally agree with you.The shrooms and light and shadow play is great.I also loved the art in the buildings.It is abstract and the portraits of noblemen are like someone is watching you.Also the statues that make you wonder is it human or not.

I hope they don't fu** up by making some flashy effects that will ruin the atmosphere.

jtr7
27th Mar 2011, 09:19
:thumb:

Maethius
30th Mar 2011, 15:50
Realism and surrealism have to coexist in some form of balance... an environment that's completely surrealistic doesn't compute well in the mind's eye and is hard for our imagination to "buy". Also, you need a very strong, realistic foundation in order to set off those things which are surreal. For instance, Avatar could be considered very surreal, but all of the fantastic stuff like glowing flora and fauna are still realistic... they use concepts that exist in our world. I guess it depends what you define as "surreal" ... magical things we can't explain are surreal, glowing mushrooms, to me, are realistic.

I feel that T1/T2 established a good pattern for the fantasy aspect of the Thief world, and that TDS totally departed from it and the community felt it.

T1:
A great blend of gothic/victorian environments with both steam and magical "tech" sprinkled liberally about everywhere. The streetlamps were magical! There were generators and pumps on every city block. Ruins were well used, and ... felt like ruins! Natural setting were very limited, with the fantasy element being reserved for later in the game when these things intruded on his world, and seen mostly when he finally intrudes on THEIR world. Readables did a great job of supporting that the whole, known world was commonly like this. Excellent balance... and it should be, T1 set the precedent for the world.

T2:
I missed the natural/supernatural element as it was washed out a bit from T1... but that was the entire point of the plot! The Mechanists changed things, but even with this being integral in the story it sucked a little from the world for me. I thought the Trickster/Pagan world felt more forced and lacked the direction and strength of the original portrayal, but it still felt okay.

TDS:
We saw the world reduced from Gothic/Victorian to Medieval, with both the magical and steam elements all but removed. Gone were the commonplace magical elements, and gone were the strange, cool mechanical devices. Were there natural environments aside from city parks? I honestly can't remember that well! In some ways I'm glad the Pagans got more developed... except they were developed wrong; in the wrong places, in the wrong ways. Also, the mages and their magic were entirely GONE without a trace. The Pagans and the mages were the key to the surreal elements of Thief.

T4 should "reset" things by signifying that the loss of the Mechanists (wouldn't it have been nice to find dilapidated, abandoned structures and machines left over from them?), with the mages moving to fill the gaps again. With the Hammers slowly rebuilding their rustic ways, the Mechanists gone, we have an opportunity for Pagans and mages to replace tech with magic. Personally (and, well, this whole forum is personal!), I feel that there should be a feeling of tug-of-war between nature and civilization. We should see parts of the city where nature is slowly intruding... if anything, some quarters should start to decline into sections like the abandoned, haunted portions we saw in T1. Not that they are zombie and ghost infested, but that the forces that kept nature at bay have been spread thin.

Well, that's a lot of rant for very little concept! Hopefully I kind of conveyed what I see in my mind's eye? :hmm:

xAcerbusx
30th Mar 2011, 23:40
I don't think Deadly Shadows so much departed from the past games, in terms of the supernatural aspect. I said this in my review of Thief 2, but: Thief 1 was more of a supernatural game, Thief 2 was more of a technological game, and Thief 3 was more of an urban game. The plot revolves around the dark history of the city, so, aside from Auldale, you're walking around primarily in the older sections of the City. It makes sense within the context of the fiction.

In terms of design, the choice to have less supernatural elements, burricks, ratbeasts, etc. in Thief 2 was also in direct response to the community's complaints about TDP's perceived shortcomings. If you go back and play Thief 1, a valid argument could be made that you're walking around in an awful lot of burrick and zombie-infested areas. It does get rather samey.

willim33
14th May 2011, 12:49
I think we can all agree that if the game were completely down-to-earth, stripped of any magic or surreal aspects (e.g. rope arrows and climbing gloves), based on a period of history and having any suggestion of prophesy or supernatural kept within the range of doubt and more realistic explanation, the game would have a wooden feel - perhaps an authentic wood, but with an overly familiar and unengaging solidity which would detract from the intrigue and immersive nature of the experience. We are taking the term 'surreal' quite liberally because if Thief were truly surreal, the Abysmal Gale might look a little odder (see below lol), but I would say that the surreal aspects of the game are part of what makes it so fun to play.
http://onlyfunnyjokes.com/bestoftheweb/wp-uploads/surreal-art-10.jpg
Let's not turn this game into Assassin's Creed, but let's also not allow magic and monsters to dominate the game.

jtr7
14th May 2011, 22:51
Magic and monsters running amok were the original corruption Garrett fought against, and then again, in a technological way, and then again, in a tying up loose-ends way, for each game respectively. That world's nature needs to be whole again, nothing missing but the dead characters, and even then, their memories must persist, spoke, whispered, reminded.

zhunt
16th May 2011, 04:54
constantines mansion was awesome.
i bet im not the only one who wondered where that giggling was coming from and was wondering if the next corner they came around they would be looking at some little girl.
i must admit i was wondering if it was something else hideous immitating a child and i would come around a corner hearing the giggling and find it coming from some hideous monster, kinda like the burer sobbing like a child behind the door in stalker call or pripyat, or like the terminator using someones voice to attract conner in the movies.
surrealism is great in thief, those floating light things and the tinkery bells noises, the shrooms.
cant just have garrett robbing houses with 4 walls and doors, need mysterious and odd locations.

Voodoo
23rd May 2011, 15:27
Has anyone here played Bioshock 2? the city of Rapture has alot of similar mixes of technology and some mysticism integrated quite nicely into the game also taking on the role of a big daddy allows you to see the world of Rapture through his eyes which also means that the outline of his helmet is visible around the screen? so why not have Garretts hood or whoever the protagonist may be outlining the edge of the players screen?

jtr7
24th May 2011, 00:13
Ken Levine had a hand in the formulative design of Thief, was a major part of System Shock 2, and so it's no surprise that the BioShock games share blood with those games.




Knowing that it's Viktoria giggling all around Garrett in the planty parts of Con's mansion makes her extra creepy.

And the sentient plants hungry for manfool blood and pleading in little girl voices make me wonder if they were little wood nymph children hidden in there, or if the thistleaids have voices.

Platinumoxicity
24th May 2011, 09:17
And the sentient plants hungry for manfool blood and pleading in little girl voices make me wonder if they were little wood nymph children hidden in there, or if the thistleaids have voices.

I don't remember that in any pagan influenced levels. I only remember the hungry ghosts in the cloister library in Return to The Cathedral telling you to feed them.

TheWoodsieLord
24th May 2011, 09:55
Okay it's more like an inside thing for us here in Finland... by that I mean an almost exclusively specific ethnic group immigrating to an industrial nation to exploit the weak laws around social services and welfare, and for example get so many kids that they can live like regular middle class people without ever having to go to work because they get 20 times more welfare benefits by having the kids than a local gas station worker with a broken leg gets when he's unable to work.

But that's not the discussion here. It's just so weird that right after the genocide that the Mechanists conducted, the pagan presence has increased 10-fold instead of significantly decreasing. :scratch: Did all the exiled jews move back to Germany right after the nazis were defeated? I don't think so. Or actually more like: Did all the exiled jews move right back to that one country they hate and would never want to live in, right after the nazis were defeated? And not speaking about Germany here.

You're overestimating the scale of Karras' purge. We don't even know how many pagans he killed. We can only be sure about one village. Then, when he was defeated, they launched a counteroffensive and started returning the stone and wood of the city to the Woodsie one. And let's not forget that they were finally following the leadership of humans who had more practical goals, rather than a god and a nymph.

Besides, how many pagans are there in TDS? I don't remember seeing that many. You make it sound as if they were the most numerous NPCs in the entire game.

And your comparison with Germany and the Jews is flawed for one simple reason. The war isn't over in the Thief universe. As long as these religious groups exist in and around the city, there will be war. And let's not forget that the pagans were a side in this war, making them more like the Soviet Union than the Jews, who were just victims of a regime.

jtr7
24th May 2011, 10:13
I don't remember that in any pagan influenced levels. I only remember the hungry ghosts in the cloister library in Return to The Cathedral telling you to feed them.

Go into the "outer space" room in the mansion. The Trickster attempted to get The Eye and failed, so a hint of Pagan-y presence is not out of the question in a place where time stands still and the plants don't grow or die, and the bodies of Renault and Martello don't rot, and like the Shalebridge Cradle, the apples are still in edible condition (even though TDS's food can't be eaten).

Platinumoxicity
24th May 2011, 13:55
Go into the "outer space" room in the mansion.

Ah yes, of course.


The Trickster attempted to get The Eye and failed, so a hint of Pagan-y presence is not out of the question in a place where time stands still and the plants don't grow or die, and the bodies of Renault and Martello don't rot, and like the Shalebridge Cradle, the apples are still in edible condition (even though TDS's food can't be eaten).

I just thought the place was so haunted and saturated by the presence of death that not even microbes would touch the tainted organic material. :D

jtr7
25th May 2011, 00:15
Yep. Such has been my estimation, but for the lack of a need for nutrients, the lack of enzymes, etc., and it is my base theory which newer ones are built upon. :)


The library in Gervaisius's manor has those voices, too. This is where the Pagan theory really gets stretched to make it fit. Although there's not a strong indicator that the murderous librarian was also the same person who made the reconnaissance map for the assault on Beck O' the Wills, both named Ashton, we do have the most wood and plant-filled structure in the known Thief universe, a keen interest by Viktoria for the Cultivator, and Pagan agents gathering intel for her, to make that manor prickle with herby magicks.

Platinumoxicity
25th May 2011, 05:40
Isn't it safe to say that ghosts and undead have nothing to do with the pagans, unless they're pagan ghosts?

jtr7
25th May 2011, 07:53
Depends. The Pagans accept nature and chaos and intentionally mess with undeath and necromantic objects to bring misery upon city- and hammer-heads, otherwise yes, The City's necro-plagues affect all equally at a base level and actions can have unintended necromantic consequences, and magic use of certain kinds amplify it and can be harnessed. The Hammerites' cruelty causes more undeath, to their consternation, than anybody's. The Pagans intentionally amplify it through channeled plant magics. More plants work in their favor for increasing necromantic anomalies.

Platinumoxicity
25th May 2011, 09:54
I always thought that necromancy and undeath is the exact opposite of plants and nature. And hammerites oppose the undead simply because the undead opposes everything. I think it's stupid to attribute the pagans with everything. If the forces of nature, interdimensional alien armies and even the undead can be harnessed by the pagan forces, the fact that civilization still exists makes no sense, because there's no way the hammerites could've repelled the combined forces of everything that opposes them. That, or the forces of chaos are so unprofessional, unorganized and bad at fighting, that the hammerites have been able to keep them at bay despite being outnumbered 10 to 1.

Or do you think that even if the pagans could have some influence in necromancy, at the end of the day the undead always want everything living to become dead, and the pagans have no influence over the undead?

It just seems strange to me that fanatics like the pagans would want to have anything to do with forces that oppose everything they know, and that they have no control over.

Maethius
25th May 2011, 17:05
I always thought of the undead as enemies to both, the holy Hammers and the natural Pagans. I suppose I think of them as their own faction... if you want to call it that.

Platinumoxicity
25th May 2011, 19:37
I suppose I think of them as their own faction... if you want to call it that.

That's only if you think about it with videogame logic. If there is a group of monsters that are enemies with everyone, in videogame terms it's still a faction, just one that's enemies with all other factions. When you think about it outside the logic of videogames, they're an unorganized group of hostile monsters that just happen to prey on the living, and since everyone else is living, it could be said that they're enemies with everyone.

In videogame logic, rats and rust mites are civilians. In normal logic civilians are civilians, and animals are animals, even though their affiliation with other factions is exactly the same as civilians'.

jtr7
26th May 2011, 00:29
I always thought of the undead as enemies to both, the holy Hammers and the natural Pagans. I suppose I think of them as their own faction... if you want to call it that.

They are enemies to all. However, they can be used by anyone to antagonize others, especially those who would seek to control the natural necromantic energy pools and webs (Necromancers), or nature/chaos lovers who have the means to tap into those energies. Like radioactive substances in nature, deadly to most life and totally part of the world, they can be collected and focused to harm or help.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
26th Jun 2011, 23:34
Another thread reminded me of the beautiful ringing Will-O-Wisps in Thief, so here is a lovely pic in dedication:

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu83/T4Mod/willowisp.jpg

Hypevosa
27th Jun 2011, 02:10
I must agree, I loved the ringing of the will-o-wisps, it was quite unique, and I will probably recognize the sound till the day I die.

jtr7
27th Jun 2011, 02:33
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/TMA_b16_00154.jpg


A form of the classic Wisp made it into the gamefiles for TDS, including the classic sound. A fan-mission that never came to fruition was going to use it. I don't know if there's an FM out there already that uses it or not, but I was happy to hear the devs and Brosius made them, even if they weren't used in the game. TDS has three wisp tracks in the soundfiles, each at different levels of modification, with one sounding more like a handbell choir, one mostly modified but still handbell-like, and one fully-modified and classic Wispy. Since Terri Brosius is involved with the handbell choir where she attends church, it's possible they're the direct source for the recordings, if it's not wind chimes. :)

EDIT: Sped up 8x, it resembles the sound of the baby Wisp that floats into Constantine's grasp in the beginning of the infamous cutscene.

JFSOCC
28th Jun 2011, 16:56
Adding my voice to the chorus, yay for surrealism. but, in moderation, just enough to be uncanny, not enough to rewrite all we know about physics. the uncanny weirds me out and that feeling belongs in Thief, but if you overdo it, it will easily break suspension of disbelief. it stops being a magical world and it starts being a meta "the game devs needed this to work, so this is what they invented"

Platinumoxicity
28th Jun 2011, 17:04
In fairytales, wisps are always dangerous in one way or another. Maybe if in Thief 4 there are wisps, they could have very acute senses, and if they'd hear you, they could come to investigate and get curious and start swirling around you. Eventually they'd get bored of it, but until then you'd be exposed and shadows couldn't hide you.

Black-Adder
29th Jun 2011, 18:59
In fairytales, wisps are always dangerous in one way or another. Maybe if in Thief 4 there are wisps, they could have very acute senses, and if they'd hear you, they could come to investigate and get curious and start swirling around you. Eventually they'd get bored of it, but until then you'd be exposed and shadows couldn't hide you.

Yeah that would be a really neat challhenge, especially if the wisps moved randomly about the map. One water arrow should be enough to either douse them or chase them away though.

Platinumoxicity
29th Jun 2011, 21:12
Yeah that would be a really neat challhenge, especially if the wisps moved randomly about the map. One water arrow should be enough to either douse them or chase them away though.

They're not fire. I don't think water arrows should douse wisps. Maybe they could get pissed and fly away for a while. That is if you could hit them.

Vae
29th Jun 2011, 21:45
The Wisp is a magical creature, consisting of a globe of semi-solid vapor, which is capable of emanating light. Thus, a water arrow wouldn't harm it, nor scare it. The Wisp would simply become annoyed or angered by this pathetic attempt to cause it harm...and as result, would either react with a shock attack, or more likely, attempt to lure the player into a trap.

Wisps should be able to extinguish their own magical light, so as to become translucent or even invisible. This ability would be especially useful when tactically lying-in-wait, and when luring the player towards potential doom.

jtr7
29th Jun 2011, 21:49
Yeah, these aren't ignis fatuus, even though they sometimes smoke, but something a bit more. They don't seem physical, at least, before the TDS version. They usually make it necessary to use physical cover rather than shadow, and since it's pretty occasional, that's fine. I'm glad the AIs can't see Garrett's shadow, or that would be a bigger problem.

Vae
29th Jun 2011, 22:14
I realize they made them just wandering magical lights in the original games, which offered very little challenge as a mobile light source to avoid. They were mostly used as illuminated ornaments to enhance the magical atmosphere (which I loved). Yet, I always wished that there were true Wisps in the game. They could be used in addition to the "wandering fairy lights", and would add dimension as a unique type of stealth creature challenge.

xAcerbusx
29th Jun 2011, 22:59
Isn't it safe to say that ghosts and undead have nothing to do with the pagans, unless they're pagan ghosts?

We know they were linked in at least one instance. In Deadly Shadows, the Pagan shaman in Old Quarter was apparently behind the undead in the Hammerite Graveyard. They have spells for bringing back the dead (albeit, in zombie form) but I don't think it goes beyond that.

jtr7
30th Jun 2011, 00:14
I found the one coming from Fall through the hollowed tree over the particle bridge over the pool with the first vine arrow in TMA pretty unsettling as it chased the shadows away when I played that portion of the Maw the first time. Not knowing the patrol routes of the apebeasts, it was extra tense having the wisp light me up in the hollow while I listened to the plumsie taker tease his peer, and I hoped the timing would not betray me.

Beck o' the Wills had blue singing fairy lights hovering above, like cooler sleeping wisps, while a common wisp paced back and forth along it's sine-wave path. I don't like how the TDS wisps were injurious to everyone who touched them, and how the killed Pagans who wouldn't react or move out of the way, and just stood there going "Ouch!" and keeling over, so again, a return to the originals as the starting point would be good, and if they don't mimic fire elementals, that would be even better. If you want fire elemental behavior, use fire elementals. Keep wisps cute, beautiful, Pagan friendly, and a pain in a taffer's butt.

Speaking of Fire Elementals, both they and the Fire Shadows existed without the Trickster, and the Fire Shadows existed in Hammer territory, and the Hand Mages could conjure up Fire Elementals as well as Air Elementals. Since I'd love to see the elementalism and the four elements brought back to importance, I hope we not only see these things in the future, but they are fleshed-out better than ever. In Precursor Karath Din, the magic lights floated over the waters and attacked no one.

ballast
30th Jun 2011, 01:41
I hope surrealism comes back in Thief 4.

In previous games, it added a special flavor of atmosphere and spookiness to the games. Some of my most stressful moments came not with interacting with guards, but with burricks, zombies, bugs, and other weird creatures.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
30th Jun 2011, 12:40
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/TMA_b16_00154.jpg


Beautiful. :)
So beautiful, in fact, it's been added to first post/first page. Thanksies. :flowers:

Black-Adder
30th Jun 2011, 16:49
The Wisp is a magical creature, consisting of a globe of semi-solid vapor, which is capable of emanating light. Thus, a water arrow wouldn't harm it, nor scare it. The Wisp would simply become annoyed or angered by this pathetic attempt to cause it harm....

Theres never any detailed descriptions in Thief lore that specifically describe wisps are or their inner workings. They can be fairies on fire for all we know.

Anyways, joking and nitpicking aside, having a invulerable wisp that takes away your only defence, the shadows, is poor game mechanic. Thus, having the wisp vulnerable to water arrows is imho a good mechanic to make it an obstacle the player has different ways of solving; use an expensive arrow or avoid the wisp entirely? I dont think anyone would loose any sleep over having wisps be doused by water arrows.

Platinumoxicity
30th Jun 2011, 17:33
Anyways, joking and nitpicking aside, having a invulerable wisp that takes away your only defence, the shadows, is poor game mechanic.

It's impossible to not admit that it's a "poor game mechanic" in the same way as:

-Lightning strikes that illuminate areas.
-Spotlights.
-That room in Soulforge with 4 coils illuminating the room in sequence.
-Those automatic lights in the lost city.

Caranfin
30th Jun 2011, 19:02
Anyways, joking and nitpicking aside, having a invulerable wisp that takes away your only defence, the shadows, is poor game mechanic.
What. It's clearly apparent to any player with eyes what the wisp does, so it's not like it's just a cheap "suddenly you are totally visible!"-thing. It just forces you to adapt to the situation a bit differently than usual. Forcing the player a bit out of their comfort zone is not a bad game mechanic, making every problem go away by "shoot it with something" is.

Black-Adder
30th Jun 2011, 19:51
Having to wait obscene amounts of time for a invulnerable enemy to pass by so that i can proceed is not my definition of fun.

Platinumoxicity
30th Jun 2011, 20:04
Having to wait obscene amounts of time for a invulnerable enemy to pass by so that i can proceed is not my definition of fun.

Having to wait obscene amounts of time for any kind of enemy to pass by so that I can proceed is my definition of stealth.

Caranfin
30th Jun 2011, 20:22
How is that different from waiting for an ordinary guard to pass by, other than not being able to blackjack the obstacle?

Platinumoxicity
30th Jun 2011, 20:44
How is that different from waiting for an ordinary guard to pass by, other than not being able to blackjack the obstacle?

Was that addressed to me? I believe I said


Having to wait obscene amounts of time for any kind of enemy to pass by so that I can proceed is my definition of stealth.

Notice: It is my definition of stealth.

Caranfin
30th Jun 2011, 21:05
No, that was meant for Black-Adder. Should have been more specific, I guess.

Black-Adder
1st Jul 2011, 14:38
How is that different from waiting for an ordinary guard to pass by, other than not being able to blackjack the obstacle?

Didnt you read that part about one of the enemies being a moving lightsource that invulnerable for some reason? Theres a big difference between handling a few drunken guards or an obnoxious invulnerable stalker orb that takes away your ability to hide.

Ok, look, its seems like this is really a matter-of-taste thing. Some people like to have more tactical freedom than others, and neither view is 'better' than the other, so I'm not going to discuss this further, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Platinumoxicity
1st Jul 2011, 15:01
Ok, look, its seems like this is really a matter-of-taste thing. Some people like to have more tactical freedom than others, and neither view is 'better' than the other, so I'm not going to discuss this further, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I wanted to have tactical freedom in Return to the Cathedral. I was forced to kill 9 Haunts.

Loup
1st Jul 2011, 18:03
I wanted to have tactical freedom in Return to the Cathedral. I was forced to kill 9 Haunts.


When I threw my last flashbomb, that's when things got really interesting. Man, the frightful moments in that mission. I felt exhausted when I finally got through.

A few catacombs under the Cathedral would have been nice.

Caranfin
1st Jul 2011, 18:29
Those electrical lights are also bad game design as they take away the player's tactical option of shooting at it until it goes away.

jtr7
1st Jul 2011, 19:41
Too much freedom means it's a sandbox and no game but what the player creates, no challenge but what the player sets up for him/herself.

Black-Adder
2nd Jul 2011, 07:11
I know i said i wasnt going to discuss this further but i have to point out the fact that you are basically saying this:

"oh no my precious fairy isnt invulnerable, this game is ruined"

Just fyi.

EDIT:
If you put your post in context with the current discussion about wether wisps should be invulnerable or not, that was basically what you said.
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

jtr7
2nd Jul 2011, 07:18
Okey doke. I thought I was saying don't make it like the AIs, don't "improve" it by making it more like something else already there, don't make something "new" by making it more common. WTF, man? What next?

Platinumoxicity
2nd Jul 2011, 09:23
...make fire elementals so that they can be knocked out with the blackjack, perhaps? Or how about making the fire shadow killable, defeating the entire purpose of ever creating the whole thing in the first place?

Caranfin
2nd Jul 2011, 11:18
I know i said i wasnt going to discuss this further but i have to point out the fact that you are basically saying this:

"oh no my precious fairy isnt invulnerable, this game is ruined"

Just fyi.

Yeah man I get totally upset when games try to challenge me as well. Keep fighting the good fight against variety.

xAcerbusx
2nd Jul 2011, 22:14
It's a tough balance. On one hand I didn't like them at first in T2, but after playing TDS and experiencing way too many shadows and shadow paths there, I appreciated T2's a lot more. If we could extinguish, turn off and unscrew every source of light, the level would just become one giant shadow making it way too easy. And boring, imo

One of the things The Dark Project had - that Thief II and DS didn't, to the best of my knowledge - were lights that were almost burned out, or had an electrical short. That way you had to time the exact moment they briefly shut off in order to pass by. I'd like to see some of that in Thief 4.

Black-Adder
3rd Jul 2011, 08:46
...make fire elementals so that they can be knocked out with the blackjack, perhaps? Or how about making the fire shadow killable, defeating the entire purpose of ever creating the whole thing in the first place?



Yeah man I get totally upset when games try to challenge me as well. Keep fighting the good fight against variety.

Jeez, stop with the strawman arguments already. It makes this whole discussion look really dumb. Just because I dont agree that invulerable wisps are fun doesnt mean I want thief to become a shooter game. Learn the difference guys!

Caranfin
3rd Jul 2011, 21:20
I'm... not saying that.

Ok look, I'll explain. You have said that not being able to put out the wisp with water is

poor game mechanic.
because it limits the player's

tactical freedom

This is silly.

The wisp is, mechanically, basically just a moving lamp you can't switch off. It being all ~*Magical*~ is just a bit of cool fluff; gameplay-wise, the only difference to a standard electrical light is some added challenge in figuring out safe hiding places.

jtr7
3rd Jul 2011, 23:32
Garrett is not all-powerful, and the game creates many many situations where you can't just snuff a light, but have to do something different. There's not as much waiting as one believes, since the game provides the means to cope in more ways than dousing or waiting. Keep the challenge and thinking of the game, please!

The Pagans have at least three types of Wisps, and the Keepers have their floating orbs. Forcing Garrett to sneak and be patient is not bad game mechanics, but is pure Thief stealth.

joseywales1027
4th Jul 2011, 00:21
Garrett is not all-powerful, and the game creates many many situations where you can't just snuff a light, but have to do something different. There's not as much waiting as one believes, since the game provides the means to cope in more ways than dousing or waiting. Keep the challenge and thinking of the game, please!

The Pagans have at least three types of Wisps, and the Keepers have their floating orbs. Forcing Garrett to sneak and be patient is not bad game mechanics, but is pure Thief stealth.

:thumb:

ToMegaTherion
4th Jul 2011, 12:57
To be fair those wisps were pretty irritating, because they weren't easily predictable or predicable at all (maybe they moved to noticeable patterns, but I never could work it out), and there was nothing you could do about them. There's a difference between being forced out of your comfort zone and being annoyed by something annoying for no good reason.

ballast
6th Jul 2011, 03:18
Garrett is not all-powerful, and the game creates many many situations where you can't just snuff a light, but have to do something different. There's not as much waiting as one believes, since the game provides the means to cope in more ways than dousing or waiting. Keep the challenge and thinking of the game, please!

The Pagans have at least three types of Wisps, and the Keepers have their floating orbs. Forcing Garrett to sneak and be patient is not bad game mechanics, but is pure Thief stealth.

Double :thumb:

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jul 2011, 17:54
The wisps are a beautiful addition to the Thief games. I really hope we will see their return in T4. :)

keeperr
11th Nov 2011, 22:37
I wasn't really a fan of those crazy missions. I just got lost all the time. Which is why I loved Thief 2 so much. They got away from the crazy maze missions and monsters, and focused on the epic mansion missions.

Join the club. The bank and angelwatch being the among the most epic missions i've ever played. TDS did some very good mansion missions as well, but there's just no comparison.
The walking robots, the sentry faces and the likes were about as realistic as i could cope with. THe glowing shrooms were alright, not really that abnormal.

Floating fireballs, whisps, zombies, giant fish things, walking trees/stones. Gimme a break! This isn't Fear, or Doom.. :confused:

Vae
11th Nov 2011, 23:03
All this tells us, is that you do not understand the THIEF Universe.

Magic, elementals, undead, and other magical creatures, are a fundamental part of its' cosmology.

keeperr
11th Nov 2011, 23:21
Ok, obviously.
Still prefer the castle missions!
Thief is my favourite game :D

Vae
11th Nov 2011, 23:31
Mine too...:)

Preferences are fine, as long as they don't attempt to undermine the fundamental aspects of world design, story, and gameplay.

I likewise would point out this same truth to someone wanting to eliminate "manor missions" from THIEF, just because they did not prefer them.

keeperr
12th Nov 2011, 04:50
I completely agree with you Vae.

I didn't mean to put my preference across so harsh, infact thats just me saying my preference would be to illiminate anything that isn't real at all. But Thief has that element of surrealism and it makes it was it is. It wouldn't be thief without any of it obviously. Not to undermine the fundamental aspects, to me that was medieval thieving, to which Garrett has become my hero.

I must admit, I had trouble getting into T1, particularly some of the later missions like the lost city were extremely hard, and pushed my patience in certain areas however i struggled through and can say after that it was a good experience.
Levels such as the bonehoard, cragscleft, or the haunted cathedral were very good missions, it was intense, frightening at times, and made me change my style accordingly. Very enjoyable experiences.

How can you say I dont understand the thief universe? :scratch: Ofcourse I do! Maybe i should have said the sentries is about as much surrealism as i would like to put up with - rather than "cope" after all i have completed all the games, coping doesn't come into it haha. I'm more a thief fan than any other game anyway.

I think thief 2 and 3 managed the surrealism better as there was alot less, and they were put into set levels so i could immerse myself better in the game. Not to say I couldn't immerse myself in the first game either, it had its moments. The whisps on T3 were majorly cumbersome especially on the pagan level getting the paw/the ritual, as I'm sure thats how they were always meant. I didn't have much difficulty getting around them. I didn't find my surreal foes unpredicable either, I mean usually they caught me outside my comfort zone or off guard before I even ran into them. As with the Kurshoks sadly.

I have even pondered on the thought of electricity usage in the thief universe as its not necceserilly realistic, but it IMO works really well, it puts in the challenge, and I agree with it being there. & I absolutely bought into the idea of a medieval submarine! Pure genius!

I couldn't imagine the tricksters lair without those fly monster things (though I detest them), or the bonehoard without the zombies, or the haunted cathedral without the hammerite ghouls, nor could i imagine T2 without Karrass' servant masks, robots (and the cute baby ones), or sentries. And in T3 the zombies in the cradle were well implemented, and that alternate universe place fit well IMO, and in the art gallery the forcefield thing.

I'll probably get right up your nose now :P

All im saying is magic wands, whisps, and err.. Well, what can I say, each to their own I guess. I like the game with suspense and the occasional freight. Just things inparticular were plain annoying for me. Not because they're unpredictable, I just simply dont like them, or the idea of their existence. But thats me, thanks for pointing the spot light in my dark corner. You got your essay! I hope it satisfies your requirements for posting, and i'm glad my preference meets said standards of posting. May I enquire as to your preference on the surrealism in the thief series? Infact need I ask? It was simply great.

The first few times i ran into zombies in T1, the first time one of those walking trees snuck up behind me in T2, and the banging door & zombies in the cradle being some of the best surreal "poop my panties" moments the game gave me (thanks!) and its not like i would pause and get changed, until i'd achieved my objectives, returned to the city and got home safely.
Thought i'd share my lust for realism there with you, harr...
Jokes.
:naughty:

Vae
12th Nov 2011, 06:46
How can you say I dont understand the thief universe? :scratch:

This was what I was referring to...


Floating fireballs, whisps, zombies, giant fish things, walking trees/stones. Gimme a break! This isn't Fear, or Doom.. :confused:

You're right, this isn't "Fear" or "Doom"...it's THIEF, and all of those things belong in the THIEF Universe...

Fire Elemental - The THIEF Universe has elemental planes of existence as part of its' cosmology, which is why there are Fire Elementals (they're magical creatures not "floating fireballs").

Will-o-the-Wisp - This is a magical light-emitting creature often encountered in Pagan territories.

Zombie - Like other Undead in the THIEF Universe, Zombies exist partly because of "Necromantic Magic".

Kurshok - The Kurshok are a civilization, species and faction of xenophobic amphibian humanoids who dwell mainly within their ancient lost city under the sewers and streets of The City.

Tree Beast - This is another enchanted creature which can be encountered in Pagan territories.

Stone Statue - Actually these are "Stone Golems", which were created by Gamall, using Glyph magic.


I have even pondered on the thought of electricity usage in the thief universe as its not necceserilly realistic, but it IMO works really well, it puts in the challenge, and I agree with it being there.

Good, I'm glad you do...because "wireless power transmissions" are common throughout The City and other places.


I couldn't imagine the tricksters lair without those fly monster things...

The "fly monster things" are called "Bugbeasts".


...or the haunted cathedral without the hammerite ghouls...

They're called "Haunts" or "Hammer Haunts".


...nor could i imagine T2 without Karrass' servant masks, robots (and the cute baby ones), or sentries.

...Masked Servants, Combat Bots, and "cute" Worker Bots...


And in T3 the zombies in the cradle were well implemented, and that alternate universe place fit well IMO,and in the art gallery the forcefield thing...

Those weren't zombies, they were "Puppets"...The "alternate universe place" was "travelling back into the past"...and the "electrified security barriers" were in the Wieldstrom Museum.


All im saying is magic wands, whisps, and err.. Well, what can I say, each to their own I guess. I like the game with suspense and the occasional freight. Just things inparticular were plain annoying for me. Not because they're unpredictable, I just simply dont like them, or the idea of their existence. But thats me, thanks for pointing the spot light in my dark corner. You got your essay! I hope it satisfies your requirements for posting, and i'm glad my preference meets said standards of posting. May I enquire as to your preference on the surrealism in the thief series? Infact need I ask? It was simply great.

Sure...:)

I like both the magical elements and non-magical elements pretty much equally. I like the balance of both, as it gives a nice variety of unique challenges for gameplay.

I like the magical aspects because they help to generate a lot of wonder and mystery...and with magic and magical forces, the THIEF Universe feels bigger and much more dimensional...and so I like that...:D


The first few times i ran into zombies in T1, the first time one of those walking trees snuck up behind me in T2, and the banging door & zombies in the cradle being some of the best surreal "poop my panties" moments the game gave me (thanks!) and its not like i would pause and get changed, until i'd achieved my objectives, returned to the city and got home safely.

Now that's focus...:eek:


Thought i'd share my lust for realism there with you, harr...
Jokes.
:naughty:

You're a dirty, naughty girl...:p