PDA

View Full Version : PAGANS - A Plea - All General Discussion



Dr.Haggard
12th May 2009, 11:55
After the mess Ion made of the Pagan dialogue in Deadly Shadows I feel compelled to mention it here in the hope that someone might notice. I'm not suggesting EM are likely to make the same mistakes, but it's worth mentioning.

After all, atmosphere is one of the most important aspects of the Thief games, and Ion managed to spoil the atmosphere of the otherwise well designed Pagan mission in T: DS. Rather than sounding eerie and twisted they talked like a bad Gollum impersonator after a lobotomy and six pints.

Of course, this is assuming there will be Pagans in Thief 4... :hmm:

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85674

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91818

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98337

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
12th May 2009, 12:07
Not all pagans must speak the same accent, different congregations and clans perhaps, just to merge the different but already established styles logically within the narrative:) (yeah I preferred the "original style to)

xXFl4meXx
12th May 2009, 21:50
Yes, I couldnt agree more, in DS they made the Pagans sound more thick skulled.. I mean usually it would be just the guards that are thick skulled in the T1-2 right?

The Magpie
12th May 2009, 22:06
Just hire Laura Baldwin to write out the tricksie speaksie. Easy solution.

ironpants
12th May 2009, 22:06
Agreed! Developers, please read the ttlg threads linked to in the first post!

Whoever was in charge of the T3 pagan dialogue CLEARLY didn't grok it. Hearing those ridiculously bad lines made my brain hurt, and there weren't any mods to fix it.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th May 2009, 22:57
T3 failed the Pagans in so many ways but the speaksie was the worst one, imo. :(

So, yes, we need Laura's skills again. Hopefully she might be asked... fingers crossed.. :cool:

BoldEnglishman
13th May 2009, 15:50
I'll just repeat here what I mentioned in the "Dos and Don'ts" thread:

"Regarding the Pagans, I do not think they should have had as much presence in Thief: Deadly Shadows as they did have, and I would not like to see them very much in Thief 4 either. In both Thief: The Dark Project and Thief II: The Metal Age, you never really encounter Pagans head on (the Trickster, Victoria, the Chaos Beasts and such are clearly not pagans and should not be counted as pagans -- the Pagans in the first two games are strictly non-combatant). In the first two games, the Pagans are only really heard about through conversations, read about in letters, or through other pieces of peripheral information. Even the Mission Briefings, which would start with some lines from some piece of text, were usually along the lines of "Unattributed, Clay Tablet found in an abandoned Trickster temple". The Pagans are shunned by the mainstream society of The City, and their appearance in The City in Thief: Deadly Shadows was one area that I felt Deadly Shadows disappointed with. In Thief II, the Pagans lived in the forest areas outside of the City - it was extremely risky for Victoria's agents to enter the City, and they should not be found in the City in any sort of fixed organization. This is all just my personal preference, but to me, the Order of the Vine always operated in secrecy, and infiltrating into Pagan society in any way should be along the lines of difficulty that sneaking up on a Keeper should be... especially one that does not wish to be seen ;)"

xXFl4meXx
13th May 2009, 16:53
I'll just repeat here what I mentioned in the "Dos and Don'ts" thread:

"Regarding the Pagans, I do not think they should have had as much presence in Thief: Deadly Shadows as they did have, and I would not like to see them very much in Thief 4 either. In both Thief: The Dark Project and Thief II: The Metal Age, you never really encounter Pagans head on (the Trickster, Victoria, the Chaos Beasts and such are clearly not pagans and should not be counted as pagans -- the Pagans in the first two games are strictly non-combatant). In the first two games, the Pagans are only really heard about through conversations, read about in letters, or through other pieces of peripheral information. Even the Mission Briefings, which would start with some lines from some piece of text, were usually along the lines of "Unattributed, Clay Tablet found in an abandoned Trickster temple". The Pagans are shunned by the mainstream society of The City, and their appearance in The City in Thief: Deadly Shadows was one area that I felt Deadly Shadows disappointed with. In Thief II, the Pagans lived in the forest areas outside of the City - it was extremely risky for Victoria's agents to enter the City, and they should not be found in the City in any sort of fixed organization. This is all just my personal preference, but to me, the Order of the Vine always operated in secrecy, and infiltrating into Pagan society in any way should be along the lines of difficulty that sneaking up on a Keeper should be... especially one that does not wish to be seen ;)"

:scratch:.... I really dont see any wrong in what they did in Thief III.. It was just fine..I mean afterall arent pagans at war with civilization? Your basically saying we should completely ignore what happend in Thief III and make Thi4f 2.5? Oh ffs.. I hope they ignore what you have to say.. :D

DarthEnder
13th May 2009, 22:11
Oh ffs.. I hope they ignore what you have to say.. :DLikewise. And I say that without the passive aggressive emoticon.

Sykyrys
13th May 2009, 22:37
Oo I like the pagans, they were interesting.

ToMegaTherion
13th May 2009, 22:47
We found the pagans in Deadly Shadows to be acceptably entertaining.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th May 2009, 22:52
Oo I like the pagans, they were interesting.

Yes, pagan/shamanic practice is very interesting.
I would like to see a much more meaningful and deeper philosophical approach.to this faction in Thief IV, including the continuation of chant and verse. :cool:




Hoof and horn, hoof and horn: All that dies shall be reborn
Corn and grain, corn and grain: All that falls shall rise again

**

Between the worlds we made a circle,
Never ending, universal.

Terr
13th May 2009, 23:17
Could you be more specific about exactly what you thought was done wrong in TDS in regard to the Pagan writing/speech?

I'll grant it was a little weaselly-sounding at times, but it's a decent counterpoint to the stentorian Hammerites.

The Magpie
14th May 2009, 03:09
There are three TTLG threads going into detail with numerous examples in the OP.

--
L.

randomtaffer
14th May 2009, 03:18
In T1, there was something creepy, childlike and demented about the pagan speak.
Remember when the Trickster says (this is probably wrong)
"Standsie then, in the greens and festered maw, and speedsie forth his judgments upon the weak and writhing manfools!"
*shudder*
That really creeped me out, hearing the ratmen speak that way too.

In TDS, they made it more comical than creepy.

Terr
14th May 2009, 06:46
There are three TTLG threads going into detail with numerous examples in the OP.

I'd rather not read 20 pages from other threads in order to be sure I know exactly what parts the OP is complaining about. And at least 18 of those are from "List everything you hated in Deadly Shadows", which is sort of broad, you know?

If someone can't summarize it succinctly, then perhaps it's not a very strong or cohesive argument to start with.

Dr.Haggard
14th May 2009, 09:37
Terr, watch the excellent intro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNWNSfwKNoA) to the Pagan Sanctuary mission again. The mood of this is spot on imo.

Then play the mission. Picture the scene: you're exploring a crumbling, overgrown ruin inhabited by a mysterious cult of nature-worshipping shamen. The acolytes of this ancient religion are rarely seen, almost mythical, but their ideals and influence is central to the whole Thief story. You creep from shadow to shadow, immersed in the eerie atmosphere of the place as crickets chirp and strange animal cries echo from the distance, and suddenly you hear a voice:

"What bes was that soundering? Better be checkings over by that crate"

You get the idea.

Read some of the old flavour text from briefings in the first game and compare it with the ridiculous, sometimes hilarious dialogue and comical voices of the pagans in TDS.

They didn't just get the dialect completely wrong ('bes', 'ings', 'erings' and 'ies' just about everywhere, often where it makes no sense at all) but it was also inconsistent; for example some lines would use the word 'soundings' and some would say 'sounderings', and 'bes' thrown in just about anywhere. Furthermore their lines were interspersed with unmodified phrases that stood out: "We bes having all night to searchie for you, or you can just come out right now".

Not only that but the voices themselves were comical, and the overall effect was that you'd stumbled into a colony of simpletons rather than a secretive and dangerous cult of mystics.

Personally I'd have the Pagans only speak in whispers, or at least modify their speech to sound more sinister. Some of the lines in TDS would work if it wasn't for the comical voices. Simple things like "Noises there?", "Come out manfool" etc would sound terrifying if spoken in forceful whispers, but as it is they just sounded ridiculous.

Of course extending the original Pagan theme to speaking characters who constantly have to communicate their intentions to the player is far more difficult than writing a few sinister-sounding lines (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPMknXdzCnE), but Ion Storm could have done a much better job than they did.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
14th May 2009, 10:54
^
An excellent and fair evaluation. :thumb:

Necros
14th May 2009, 16:41
T3 failed the Pagans in so many ways but the speaksie was the worst one, imo. :(

So, yes, we need Laura's skills again. Hopefully she might be asked... fingers crossed.. :cool:
From the T3 credits:

Writing - Terri Brosius
Additional Writing - Laura Baldwin
She was there in T3 too. ;)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
14th May 2009, 16:44
From the T3 credits:
She was there in T3 too. ;)

Yes indeed, but we can only assume that her input was much less than it was before because the standard was definitely lost in T3. Or perhaps development was a more 'rushed' affair. I don't know the actual reasons personally but I hope this time round, much is improved.

Prince_VLAD
14th May 2009, 16:44
I liked the Pagans dialogs in Thief III ...I smiled when I first heard "sleepsy"...and those phrases ended in "sy"...If I were them I wouldn't change much to this faction.

Corvin25
15th May 2009, 08:58
I don't like to post the same thing on more than one thread, but this is relevant. Just delete the posts you think are redundant or too numerous. >.<;

They cuts the vine and plucksie fruit
And never gives they anything back
The vine gives and gives all that it has
But now the vine will takes it back.

Dian and Larkspur are the current leaders of the pagans now... and they are without their god or nymph. The Wayward children of the Builder, the Mechanists, have returned to the Hammer, and now the Hammers have their technology. Mechanical eyes. Builder's Children (with new faces). STEAM ENGINES. Heavy auto-saws that can tear down trees faster than any axe. (but are mounted on wheels. No chainsaw massacre for you, Garrett.) Chemicals that can destroy plant life like the rust gas, but in a specific, controlled area.

The Builder and his disciples have literally "hammered" the Pagans to the point of desperation.

What if one or both of them decided that in order to compete with The Order of the Hammer... to preserve nature and carry out the Trickster's original vision for a perfect world... they would have to become immortal demigods themselves?? What if they decided that in order to survive, they would have to "advance" their power and magic as the Hammers have with technology and steel, thereby becoming masters of the very earth surrounding the city??

What if they brought the forest to the CIty (much like in LOTR: Two Towers), surrounding it and cutting off all supply caravans from farms and mines, thus causing it to starve and stagnate from within? What if, by utterly ruining city life as people know it, they would cause people to abandon the Hammers? Can steel and fire satisfy hunger and thirst? Can the Hammers truly BUILD anything without destroying something else for it? If the city wants to survive, they will have to do things the Pagan way. And those who don't will shrivel and die with their Builder.

This would be a great story of "restoring balance," in my opinion.

Planting trees and cracking walls will only get you so far, after all...

1N54N3
15th May 2009, 10:14
I actually loved the Pagans in T3 (althought your point is well taken). Whenever I did the Pagan missions I was always laughing, and I find myself once in a rare while talking like they do even still to this day :) While you are right, the way they talked didn't make them seem all dark and twisted, it was still very funny. At least the stuff they said -did- have to do with nature...."Sapped! Him bes deaded!" :D

Necros
15th May 2009, 10:35
Yes indeed, but we can only assume that her input was much less than it was before because the standard was definitely lost in T3. Or perhaps development was a more 'rushed' affair. I don't know the actual reasons personally but I hope this time round, much is improved.
Maybe Ion Storm wanted to change their style and that's why they were different. Anyway, I kinda liked them in Thief 3.

cobak
15th May 2009, 10:58
After the mess Ion made of the Pagan dialogue in Deadly Shadows I feel compelled to mention it here in the hope that someone might notice. I'm not suggesting EM are likely to make the same mistakes, but it's worth mentioning.

After all, atmosphere is one of the most important aspects of the Thief games, and Ion managed to spoil the atmosphere of the otherwise well designed Pagan mission in T: DS. Rather than sounding eerie and twisted they talked like a bad Gollum impersonator after a lobotomy and six pints.

Of course, this is assuming there will be Pagans in Thief 4... :hmm:

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85674

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91818

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98337

:thumb:

Jilly The Taffer
15th May 2009, 10:59
Yeh, I loved the eerie old way they spoke in MA.

But in DS I liked how they looked. The tatoos, the animal skulls on their heads (pagan cutscene) and stuff, they were so cool :P

Tatyana's Flowers
15th May 2009, 13:43
I like pagans...I'm pagan :wave:

Lady_Of_The_Vine
15th May 2009, 14:05
Yeh, I loved the eerie old way they spoke in MA.

But in DS I liked how they looked. The tatoos, the animal skulls on their heads (pagan cutscene) and stuff, they were so cool :P

Agreed. :)

Maethius
15th May 2009, 14:53
Definitely feel that they Pagans lost some of the mystery and grimness of their culture in T3, but there is also nothing wrong with them changing plans and attempting to infiltrate the City. The difficulty as I see it is how much they are loathed by both the Hammers (which were watered down) and the City Watch... in other words, the Pagans could only have strongholds within the City where they could not be readily discovered.

I liked the look of the Pagans in T3, and even the plot concept and missions to a point, but I do agree that they seemed more comic relief than terrifying enemy or unnerving ally. I would think a well laid plot to overgrow the city would be excellent... especially if they started where no one would dare to counter them... in the walled off Old Quarter. The Pagans, I think, would not fear the undead as much as any other culture, and, if they had turned completely dark and desperate, might even be the cause of an undead uprising in the name of the Trickster.

Oh, one other thing I didn't see mentioned much above was that, in the past, we saw much more of inhuman Trickster beast-men. Perhaps the Pagans could ally with these creatures to give us a real feeling that they have come to power?

wenny
15th May 2009, 15:05
I didn't like the pagans in DS, the way you had to gain their trust was absurd and they were in the middle of the city. I really enjoy the theft 1 and 2 but DS change the concept in a way that doesn't fit in this caotic steampunk world, thats the way I see the game like a fan of this series.

DS was a entreteining game, but not good enought for the thief series.

Nate
15th May 2009, 16:14
Yeah, the Pagans should have the own glade somewhere....not try to take over the city park like a bunch of morons.

'We'z be woodsie all nature knowing becausie we'z livens in the Park!'......sounds like those idiots who think they know all about the wilderness because they camped out in a tent in their backyard once.

CurtX
15th May 2009, 21:55
I thought the Pagan dialogue was excellent in TDS. At least for anyone that was looking for some good laughs from something that is unintentionally funny.

Petike the Taffer
15th May 2009, 23:10
To be honest, I didn't find the TDS Pagans vastly different from the previous ones. Mind you, you never see human followers of the Trickster in TDP, and TMA offers only a few glimpses of Pagan farmers merrily at home - all dead after the Mechanist ambush, the only thing still present are their short lived spirits. These were Pagans unprepared for defence, wearing normal everyday clothes. The T3 Pagans are clearly a bunch of armed scouting parties, slowly infiltrating the abandoned parts of the City a few years after the events of TMA, apparently in hope of establishing small permanent bases for further spying and operations. You never see any farmers, craftsmen or children among these. They're dressed in more greenish and rigid clothes, have bodies coloured in war paint, consist of only warriors and shamans, both male and female. They act like a vanguard - they didn't come to the abandoned parts of the City to settle down, they came to quietly establish a new foothold behind the Hammer's and authorities' backs...

BG_HHaunt
5th Jul 2009, 12:33
The pagans were not so bad in thief 3,I don't know what was wrong with them,I liked their voice.Maybe the massacre in the streets,I didn't like it.

Platinumoxicity
5th Jul 2009, 13:15
The pagans probably had an infestation of some killer insects a while before TDS because they started being paranoid and always spoke about some kind of "Bees". "Bees here" "Bees there" and "What bees?"

xDarknessFallsx
5th Jul 2009, 18:23
Pagans talked too much in T3. They lost a lot of mysteriousness and gained a whole lot of cheese. I don't mind reading the occasional pagan text or hearing very 'occasional' words come out as they walk around or as they find you -- but please not too much for T4. Hearing a pagan conversation or a bunch of words spoken just sounds... cheesy, imo.

For the taffers who like the T3 pagan talk, I wonder if they've played T1//T2. Again, just one of those things that's hard to fathom from a T2-loving standpoint.

jtr7
5th Jul 2009, 23:12
....................

kaekaelyn
6th Jul 2009, 07:06
It's hard to write good Pagan lines. It's much easier to slap it together like in T3. It's critical to spend time on it in order to get it right, no matter who's writing it. It has to be like poetry, and you can't just pull good poetry out of your butt most of the time. TDS' speaksie was just lazy speaksie.

Herr_Garrett
6th Jul 2009, 16:32
WTF jtr7, that made my eyes (and brain) ache.
Did Ion Storm hire someone who spoke only Pidgin...?:mad2:

esme
6th Jul 2009, 16:50
they bes taking the pes

Lady_Of_The_Vine
7th Jul 2009, 14:29
they bes taking the pes

Haha! Good one. :D

Fatherwoodsie
7th Jul 2009, 16:49
where bes thys hidings?

Belboz
7th Jul 2009, 17:14
all wordies ending in 's should have been sies and not s without the ' its like the woodsie lord had bred a bunch of inbreds to be his followers, I skip read most of the pagan text in TDS as it was a pain to read.

If they were trying for medieval english then all ! ' , ... ; : - " ( ) etc, should have been dropped as they dont exist.

The pagans wouldn't have called themselves pagans, pagan is just a general word for anyone who doesn't follow the teachings of christ by the people who follow christ. Although in the thief world anyone who doesn't follow the teachings of the builder.

So they would probably have called themselves 'children of the woodsie lord'.

Platinumoxicity
7th Jul 2009, 17:29
The pagans wouldn't have called themselves pagans, pagan is just a general word for anyone who doesn't follow the teachings of christ by the people who follow christ. Although in the thief world anyone who doesn't follow the teachings of the builder.

So they would probably have called themselves 'children of the woodsie lord'.

Or "woodsie ones"

This is so true and I always wondered what the devs were thinking when they made the pagans refer to themselves as pagans. They should've called themselves nothing special but everyone else is a "manfool" or "city man" or something.

Or "sneaksie" ;)

jtr7
7th Jul 2009, 19:43
.....................

Belboz
8th Jul 2009, 06:00
Even the woordsie lord or viktoria would not have refered to their followers as pagans, thats just bad or lack of research by looking glass. A pagan is just someone who does not follow your religion. As for chaos the woodsie lords realm was the realm of chaos, the builder bought order, and the keepers held the balance, now if the game follows on from thief 3, then the keepers have lost the balance, and the followers of the woodsie lord bring chaos, and the hammerites bring order, it will seesaw in to civil war between order and chaos. Adding new or old factions will just tip the balance one way or the other, mechanists would add a form of order, the hand mages would add chaos due to they follow the priciples of earth air fire water, which is the magic the trickster used. Unless you have a faction to replace the keepers then its war.

jtr7
8th Jul 2009, 06:22
......................

Belboz
8th Jul 2009, 16:38
well bollocks you impose your ideas more on what the game should be to your way of thinking than most people on this forum, why do you need to accuse other people of something you do yourself.

jtr7
8th Jul 2009, 21:09
...................

Keeper_Riff
15th Mar 2013, 09:34
Fight! Fight! Fight!What fight? I'll just look this up in T3Ed. It's always fun to know something new about my favorite game*.

*referring to Thief series in general

fbdbh
15th Mar 2013, 14:08
What's all this taffing around?

Blue Sky
15th Mar 2013, 16:33
What fight? I'll just look this up in T3Ed.

Well? We need an answer!

Keeper_Riff
15th Mar 2013, 17:28
Well? We need an answer!

Yep, found it!
http://s23.postimage.org/y4thuzk6v/Pagancorpse.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/y4thuzk6v/full/)
Poor girl looks alive and well in the editor (Health Status = Alive) but is brutally killed at the mission startup.

MasterTaffer
15th Mar 2013, 17:33
Yep, found it!
http://i48.tinypic.com/33ehcsy_th.jpg (http://i48.tinypic.com/33ehcsy.jpg)
Poor girl looks alive and well in the editor (Health Status = Alive) but is brutally killed at the mission startup.

That's her alright. Set to die at mission start every time; such a cruel purpose. Cripes, she's even named "BloodRitualBody".

Keeper_Riff
15th Mar 2013, 17:58
Her name is PaganWarriorFemale_FSkirt_07

BloodRitualBody is the name of another script which is attached to everyone in this zone. This script makes the altar recognize the body placed on it.

fbdbh
15th Mar 2013, 18:00
A minute of silence for PaganWarriorFemale_FSkirt_07.

Blue Sky
15th Mar 2013, 18:08
A minute of silence for PaganWarriorFemale_FSkirt_07.

Such a pretty name. I shall leave flowers on her grave. Or broccoli.

(Eventually I'll stop having to look up the spelling of the word 'broccoli')

MasterTaffer
15th Mar 2013, 18:09
Her name is PaganWarriorFemale_FSkirt_07

BloodRitualBody is the name of another script which is attached to everyone in this zone. This script makes the altar recognize the body placed on it.

Ah, I see.

Gamall
18th Apr 2013, 19:27
can we just get told if there will be pagans or not, that is all i wanna know, then i an cry if there isn't now and get over it by the time the game comes out

Platinumoxicity
18th Apr 2013, 23:15
can we just get told if there will be pagans or not, that is all i wanna know, then i an cry if there isn't now and get over it by the time the game comes out

There would need to be missions that take place outside the City. Garrett apparently has to smuggle himself into the City, so it would seem unlikely for him to be able to come and go as he pleases, to get to the woods that the pagans occupy. Not to mention the fact that designing forest levels with modern day visual quality standards worth of complex organic content is very expensive, especially if it would only be a level or two. And it would be strange because EM doesn't exactly soom to be dedicated to preserving things intact in the Thief world and story.

If they don't care about what makes sense for Pagans, then it would be possible for pagans to be in the game, they'd just be in the City, where they don't want to be. The reason why they were there in TDS was unrelated to the story or the world, or the faction itself. They were there just because of the strict City hub system where you would directly travel to mission locations, and due to the Red vs Green faction system. I think duplicating this compromise would be almost as bad as not having Stephen Russell, but insisting on having Garrett.

So in my opinion at this point, pagans not being there at all would be better. Just like the protagonist being someone other than Garrett would be better since he's voiced by Orzari. Though from a production cost standpoint, including pagans would be a larger feat than fixing Garrett. Dubbing a voice is a thousand times easier than producing a whole new visual theme for forest levels for the sole purpose of making pagans fit in the game world the way they are supposed to.

Maijstral
19th Apr 2013, 09:00
I'd like to see them show up somehow. Gurus of mysticism or something? It's hard to say how they might fit in, given how little we know about the new Thief world at this point.

MasterTaffer
19th Apr 2013, 09:13
I'd like to see them show up somehow. Gurus of mysticism or something? It's hard to say how they might fit in, given how little we know about the new Thief world at this point.

They already have a pretty "druid" vibe about them, so I see no reason why they wouldn't fall into the mysticism classification.