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Platinumoxicity
12th May 2009, 08:47
Every thief game has introduced a new scary thing never seen before. Thief 1 had zombies that were very hard to kill, and just when you got the hang of it, they threw some laughing super-fast skeletal warriors your way. Thief 2 introduced the Builder's Children, who were scary just because of their brutal firepower, and the Treebeasts that were as deadly, but faster than anything. TDS introduced us to the Puppet, the reanimated corpse of an institutionalized madman who's body caused electric interference around it.

Now, what hideous monster would be in Thief 4 then? Throw some nice ideas around!

I thought of this: There's always some nice ambient audio in the Thief games right? So when this monster comes near, the birds and the crickets stop singing, then you know there is something wrong. Also, these monsters should be pretty quiet at all times, so they can startle you if you aren't careful enough.

Another simple idea: Apparitions would only cast a shadow but their body could not be seen.

Also... Burricks? :D

Herr_Garrett
12th May 2009, 08:58
I always liked to play with the idea of living statues, but not as it was (pretty badly) executed in DS. I'd rather like a statue that remains wholly inanimate and motionless up until you turn your back towards it. Then it springs alive with a quite horrible shriek-roar (the scream-breath-gurgle of the Cradle would be quite appropriate), and attacks you like hell, but very silently. With glowing eyes, and maybe some of the carvings start to glow as well.
How to disable them? a) try to chip off their carvings (the runes/Glyphs that animate them). If you succeed, they do not crumble or whatever, but stand still in the same position, with the same scary faces, possibly with their eyes slowly fading b) the goode olde Fyre Arrowe or c) mines, but that is rather uncouth :)

Platinumoxicity
12th May 2009, 09:06
I don't think those "jump-out-of-closet" -monsters would be too good. You need to think about the players who like to go through the game totally unseen. Scripted alert scenes would ruin that experience. :(

StalinsGhost
12th May 2009, 09:06
I'm thinking we'll prossibly see the Hand Mages/Necromancers involved myself. So something along those lines maybe, but other than that, I really couldn't see anything new - unless they perhaps decided to bring something in from overseas. There's a big wierd world hinted at in the books and scrolls you find throughout all 3 games.

Platinumoxicity
12th May 2009, 09:12
Fire elementals could make a return too. They were terrifying sometimes. :)

Herr_Garrett
12th May 2009, 09:13
I don't think those "jump-out-of-closet" -monsters would be too good. You need to think about the players who like to go through the game totally unseen. Scripted alert scenes would ruin that experience. :(

Nonono, not like that. The point is that with these sort of opponents, you'd be forced to consider just running through an empty hall with possibly a couple of statues in it - you'd be forced, so to say, to sneak more than run. The unexpectedness of these attacks is nothing more than a stray guard just entering the room.
Of course, the statues would behave like AI, not noticing you if you sneak well enough etc.
I rather imagine them as DrK's statues, only even more scary.

Platinumoxicity
12th May 2009, 09:15
Nonono, not like that. The point is that with these sort of opponents, you'd be forced to consider just running through an empty hall with possibly a couple of statues in it - you'd be forced, so to say, to sneak more than run. The unexpectedness of these attacks is nothing more than a stray guard just entering the room.
Of course, the statues would behave like AI, not noticing you if you sneak well enough etc.
I rather imagine them as DrK's statues, only even more scary.

Oh. Ok. ;)

Apprentice101
12th May 2009, 11:57
Although i have high preferences and expectations about monsters and enemies in Thief games, i liked all implementations - heavily armed guard swarming mansion, zombie/ghost filled cathedral, fearsome beasts in maw of chaos/constines mansion/sunken citadel (which actually gave the best feeling, i know most of you will disagree), mechanical creatures, statues etc. etc. All really added to thieving experience.

My 3 points to add:

1) Dont make Thief IV heavily based just on one type/style of monsters throughtout the story. AND. Make some storyline dimensions - like 2 same monster type missions interlinked together rather than one to capture the feeling of that monster type. Like 2 zombie missions/ 2 supernatural missions/ well hopefully more than 2 human guard missions etc.
2) Replaying same monster types of course is fun. I would surely like to play against all type of oponents who were in previous installments. However, add NEW typeS of oponents too.
3) Would really like to see new type of oponents who use some level of stealth. Its like not they would be invisible, just it would be hard to notice them and they would remain COMPLETELY silent UNTIl you triggered them. That would be awesome Thief feel. Of course there would be Hints when you might encounter them, just rather indirect hints.

randomtaffer
12th May 2009, 13:22
I'm thinking we'll prossibly see the Hand Mages/Necromancers involved myself. So something along those lines maybe, but other than that, I really couldn't see anything new - unless they perhaps decided to bring something in from overseas. There's a big wierd world hinted at in the books and scrolls you find throughout all 3 games.

Yes, I would like to see some more mages too. And give them dangerous spells this time, (At least some of them) not just magic bolts. I also like the necromancer idea. Perhaps when a necromancer is alerted, it summons a zombie to check out the surrounding shadows, which it then dismisses if all is quiet again.

KharN
12th May 2009, 13:38
How about jsut not adding monsters.. but making a faction.. of humans or some form of mechanized being.. that are armoured.. carry things like hammers and axes.. and are pretty large and quick..

ggaky00
12th May 2009, 13:39
hm..... every idea is great.
still, i'd like to have one level fighting myself. lets say the story drives you to fight a "Garrett" created by.. i don't know, someone, and that "fake Garrett" would have the same abilities and really really advanced AI so would be difficult to defeat

i don't know, just a thought

randomtaffer
12th May 2009, 13:44
hm..... every idea is great.
still, i'd like to have one level fighting myself. lets say the story drives you to fight a "Garrett" created by.. i don't know, someone, and that "fake Garrett" would have the same abilities and really really advanced AI so would be difficult to defeat

i don't know, just a thought

No. It's been done way too many times to be original.
Might as well add a light/dark world that the player can go between while you're at it.

I'm not opposed to the idea of having Garrett sneak around other thieves that have stealth/cloaking abilities, though. (Like the Keepers in the FM Equilibrium)
Can you imagine that? Not being able to see enemies that are in the shadows? It'd sort of give the player a taste of their own medicine.

Gabriel
12th May 2009, 13:49
Then it springs alive with a quite horrible shriek-roar (the scream-breath-gurgle of the Cradle would be quite appropriate), and attacks you like hell, but very silently. With glowing eyes, and maybe some of the carvings start to glow as well.

Quite the contradiction there... Shrieking horribly, attacking you like hell, but very silently :scratch:

Anyway, it's not a bad idea with the statues coming to life. However, I personally would like to see, besides what's already in the Thief universe (zombies, haunts, spiders, burricks etc.) I'd like to see the return of the moving trees that were in TDP, I believe (at the end of that forest level when they chase you around). These would go well as pagan monsters.

I would also like to see maybe fishmen like in TDS... I think Thief's already got a very solid base of monsters that just needs improvement, not replacement. :)

Herr_Garrett
12th May 2009, 14:48
Quite the contradiction there... Shrieking horribly, attacking you like hell, but very silently :scratch:


"Shrieking" once, and then staying completely silent. The only thing you hear is the crunch of your bones. Not really contradictory, in my opinion.

The sneaking enemies are good, I concur. I once drew up the idea of an FM based on that, but I think it's pretty impossible to pull out in the DarkEngine. Well, let's hope they do it now and do it properly.

randomtaffer
12th May 2009, 14:55
"Shrieking" once, and then staying completely silent. The only thing you hear is the crunch of your bones. Not really contradictory, in my opinion.

The sneaking enemies are good, I concur. I once drew up the idea of an FM based on that, but I think it's pretty impossible to pull out in the DarkEngine. Well, let's hope they do it now and do it properly.

It has already been done in the dark engine.
Equilibirum is a fan-made mission for Thief 2, which uses the dark engine. The keeper's in that mission would be invisible in the shadows and visible in the light dynamically.

It was rather impressive.

Herr_Garrett
12th May 2009, 14:58
It has already been done in the dark engine.
Equilibirum is a fan-made mission for Thief 2, which uses the dark engine. The keeper's in that mission would be invisible in the shadows and visible in the light dynamically.

It was rather impressive.

I did play Equilibrium (although never finished it), but I thought that those Keepers very simply "spawned" there. Well, my ignorance :hmm:

DarthEnder
12th May 2009, 15:38
Equilibrium was amazing. If Keeper Enforcers had behaved like that instead of just guards with phaser pistols, they would have been a much more interesting enemy.

Personally, I like to see the enemies in the game divided up by type by faction.

City Watch/Guards - The usual guards, maybe add in a guard dog(or some kind of guard anime, since this is a fantasy world, like guard...lizard? I dunno), that tracks you by scent. And then have the city watch actually controlled by the former keepers, and the Enforcers actually hunt you using stealth.

3 different "religious factions":

The Hammers - Hammer soldiers, bring back Iron Golems and the Watcher masks.

The Pagans - Tree Beasts, Ratmen, maybe other beastmen etc.

The Ghouls - Necromancers, Haunts, Zombies


Then have 4 different order of elemental mages: Fire Earth Water Air

Each with its own mundane guards, but also mages, and conjured elementals, each of which is weak against a specific type of elemental arrow etc.



Completely new types of enemies are great, as long as there are new play mechanics that let you quietly deal with them. Great example of an enemy I hated was Puppets. They had a great atmosphere about them, but from a gameplay standpoint, they were frustrating and not particularly fun to deal with.

BoldEnglishman
12th May 2009, 20:05
I think one enemy/creature that should return in the game are the Burricks. Burricks are such unique creatures that they could be applied to all sorts of different situations, and I believe that they are missed dearly in both Thief II and Deadly Shadows.

I think the Hand Mages could also return, as there is so much potential for plot development regarding the Mages... yet you only see or hear of them in a handful of instances. What sort of lands have they come from? What sort of experiments have they conducted, and what have they learned through said experiments?

The Mechanists are pretty much dead. Karras is gone, the Builder's Children all went with him, and most of the Mechanists have either already been absorbed by the Hammerites in Thief: Deadly Shadows, or were killed by Karras directly before the final level in Thief II (OK, this isn't strictly stated, but the fact that the "Servants" in this last level wear the Mechanist garbs and have blood pouring down their necks looks like the "servantification" process was a lot more rushed and forced than with the Servants that were given away as gifts).

Craymen could likewise make another appearance, but only rarely (just as they were used in Thief: The Dark Project/Gold). This is another example of a creature that is the fruit of so much labour and effort, yet is only encountered in the final game two or three times (discounting the Cray Beasts).

Speaking of Beasts, the only Beasts that should return (if at all) should be the ones shown in Thief: Deadly Shadows - or entirely new ones. Once again, though it is not strictly stated, an interesting theory regarding the Maw of Chaos is that it is a realm which is not physically 'defined' as such, like our reality is... the Maw changed appearance in accordance to who controlled it. The Maw of Thief: The Dark Project is clearly very different from the Maw that Garrett visited in Thief II: The Metal Age, and the different beasts that were encountered (or the different appearance of leftovers from the original game) reflect this change. The Ape Beasts changed significantly from Thief I to Thief II, the Bug Beasts have disappeared entirely (to our knowledge), while the Tree Beasts seemed to have come into existence since the Trickster's demise. Now that Victoria is gone, the Beasts shown in Thief: Deadly Shadows could be the result of yet another mutation/transformation.

In terms of the next scary monster... I got nothing. :(

DarthEnder
13th May 2009, 21:31
I definitely feel that the Steam Golems are necessary for really nailing that steampunk feel. But interestingly, I don't think all the games constructs have to be steam engines.


There's a really great campains setting for D20 called Iron Kingdoms, it has it's own tabletop wargame as well called War Machine.

It's basically all about these fantasy steampunk armies where they control these mechanical constructs. But it's not purely technological, and some of the armies have interesting alternatives.

They're basic idea is that you have a steam engine that generates energy, and then a series of runeplates that converts that energy into magical energy that makes the construct go. I always thought of the Iron Beasts in Thief as being similar.

But then they have one army that's like the undead army, but they still use metal constructs, the difference is that instead of a steam boiler, they use these furnaces that consume souls to power their machines.

In this way, you can have similar enemies for different factions that all fit in a given theme.

Hammers with Iron constructs powered by boilers.

Pagans with stone constructs fused with elementals to make them work.

Necromancers with bone constructs powered by soul furnaces.

Nobles with more delicate expensive constructs made of brass and gold powered by clockworks.

You get the idea.

Vernichtung
13th May 2009, 22:49
3) Would really like to see new type of oponents who use some level of stealth. Its like not they would be invisible, just it would be hard to notice them and they would remain COMPLETELY silent UNTIl you triggered them. That would be awesome Thief feel. Of course there would be Hints when you might encounter them, just rather indirect hints.

Maybe have the statues mentioned earlier intermingled with real statues, but have the "live" statues have some sort of barely noticeable glyph on them.

Tohtori
13th May 2009, 23:01
I like the idea of guard dogs. Maybe there could even be guard burrics :D

I don't want to see another boring monsters like zombies or ghosts on T4 but monsters that can really scar me, monsters that rely mostly on surprise. For example some camouflage creatures that would crawl on walls and strike only if protagonist comes near. Perhaps there could be statues that moves only when no one is looking. You would only see shadow of hideous claws rising and when you look there is evil looking statue staring at you. Or there could be ghosts that could only act and be seen in dark. Like one room could look perfectly normal until you shut down the lights and see some pairs of glowing eyes.

Sapare
14th May 2009, 01:54
Sorry but I need to put my bit into this, I think you guys take this A bit(NO WAY) to far. Who the freak(but you guys) is going to play a game where its all about every room or corner you go in or around a scary monster could jump out and slice you?! Its barley any fun, Thief one almost (maybe even did) take it to far, but now with today graphics it be just pure horror. Its a THIEF game not a freaking HORROR game! At least think about other people (like me) who get relative easily scared but still want to enjoy THIAF.

(At least that is my point of view)

GmanPro
14th May 2009, 02:43
^^ You're lucky. I don't scare as easily as I used to. Return to the Cathedral dulled my fear senses when I first played that so many years ago.

If you're getting freaked out, that's a GOOD thing. It means that your completely immersed into the game.

randomtaffer
14th May 2009, 02:51
If you're getting freaked out, that's a GOOD thing. It means that your completely immersed into the game.

QFT.

It's good to be scared every once in a while.
I was filled with frantic paranoia when I played through The Cradle for the first time. (I'd heard nothing about it beforehand)

I have an actual phobia of insane asylums, so that probably helped quite a bit, but I still managed to soldier through it because the atmosphere was top-notch.

DarthEnder
14th May 2009, 03:41
If you're getting freaked out, that's a GOOD thing. It means that your completely immersed into the game.This is completely your opinion.

If anything, a mission like the Cradle pulls me out of the immersion of the game because I become so freaked out I have to stop playing, get up, and go do something else until I calm down.

Cradle was a very cool level and I'm sure if I liked survival horror I'd have liked the level but I hate survival horror so I hated playing through The Cradle.


If you love the Cradle so much, I say give that guy his own, separate game. Have him make a game about some mid-evil Inquisitor investigating scary ****.

But for god sake keep that stuff out of the game where I just wanna hit people in the head, break robots and steal ****.

randomtaffer
14th May 2009, 03:50
Also, if they do put Ratmen into Thief 4, then I hope they make them look more like the rat people in the horror film Mulberry Street, than actual Rat headed AI like in TDS.

DarthEnder
14th May 2009, 04:16
The Skaven in Warhammer were always my favorite ratmen.

dda
14th May 2009, 05:00
Doods in blood stained trenchcoats with silenced glocks and dark sunnies (fitting for thi4fs new modern setting!!)!!!!!!!

randomtaffer
14th May 2009, 05:02
Doods in blood stained trenchcoats with silenced glocks and dark sunnies (fitting for thi4fs new modern setting!!)!!!!!!!

I really hope that you don't seriously think that Thief 4 will be modern. It's been said many times before that that particular idea was one of Ion Storm's, who is now dead in the water.

dda
14th May 2009, 05:07
I really hope that you don't seriously think that Thief 4 will be modern. It's been said many times before that that particular idea was one of Ion Storm's, who is now dead in the water.

lol. I'm just BSing. Seriously, if they give it a modern setting I'll willingly give myself up to the dudes in the trenchcoats!

Sapare
14th May 2009, 05:16
^^ You're lucky. I don't scare as easily as I used to. Return to the Cathedral dulled my fear senses when I first played that so many years ago.

If you're getting freaked out, that's a GOOD thing. It means that your completely immersed into the game.

Wait how am I lucky? I don't get it.

Unstoppable
14th May 2009, 05:43
I would like to see Werewolves possibly or Vampires. Something that will threaten Garett you know a new enemy. Im sure they can cook up something interesting.

GmanPro
14th May 2009, 07:08
Wait how am I lucky? I don't get it.

Do I have to spell it out for you? :rolleyes:

You getting scared enhances the game experience. Makes it more memorable etc. When I see scary moments in games now, all I can see is the designer at the other end trying his best to come up with something frightening. It all looks so fake and gimmicky to me now. It never used to...


I would like to see Werewolves possibly or Vampires. Something that will threaten Garett you know a new enemy. Im sure they can cook up something interesting.

Oh yes! This goes back to what I was suggesting previously. A new enemy that can creep and stalk in the darkness as well or even better than Garrett. It would totally freak me out not knowing where my foe is. Especially if that foe is an eight foot werewolf sneaking about as quietly as a cat.

Apprentice101
14th May 2009, 08:50
Do I have to spell it out for you? :rolleyes:

You getting scared enhances the game experience. Makes it more memorable etc. When I see scary moments in games now, all I can see is the designer at the other end trying his best to come up with something frightening. It all looks so fake and gimmicky to me now. It never used to...



Oh yes! This goes back to what I was suggesting previously. A new enemy that can creep and stalk in the darkness as well or even better than Garrett. It would totally freak me out not knowing where my foe is. Especially if that foe is an eight foot werewolf sneaking about as quietly as a cat.

Agreed, supernatural oponents really make the spine tingle, especially if brought with Craddle-like sounds. Also, i was thinking that previously, there were pagan, mechanists, then keeper ending. Hm, maybe a few missions in the end with undead, and Vampire/Lich lord as their leader hehe. That would make Undead ending (but for me its better than robots:)

huzi73
14th May 2009, 09:30
First of all,glyphs no longer exist,so no glyph powered statues.The undead in thief is either a natural occurence,or infuenced and driven by:
pagans
hand mages(maybe they're part necromancer?)
this is not WOW WRATH OF THE LICH KING!
There is NO undead faction!(vampires would totally not fit in the thiefverse..)
ratmen were kinda like werewolves(weremonkeys?)
the point is..We should be trying to BUILD on what we have,not throw in what we feel is cool in other games!IMO,the perfect lurking,stealthy,freaky,dangerous,enemy,would be gargoyles.The statues eyes used to move in TDS cutscenes,surely signifying life,they are statue like,mysterious,yet alive,intellgent creatures,who seem to fit the sneaky-yet-strong stealth bill perfectly.IMO,all enemies from the series in general,(especially mechanists)should return.(The mechanists could survive without Karras just as easily as the pagans survive without Constantine/Viktoria)also,bring back the burricks!

Apprentice101
14th May 2009, 09:56
Well this thread is about what NEW opponents we would like to see as far as i know. It doesnt discuss what old oponents should come back in story. And im not a WoW player either. Lich has much more to the meaning than in WoW. Undead are in the game? Yes. Sorcerers/mages are in the game?. Yes. Lich makes PERFECT sense to me. A sorcerer who prolonged his life far beyond mortality. Yes there arent any Undead faction, it doesnt mean there couldnt be one. If you want to play Thief ONLY with same oponents, there are THief I, Thief II, THief III. There are fan missions. I would personally love to see new TYPES of oponents, that have different AI/mechanics than guards/zombies/statues.

kin
14th May 2009, 10:57
I was thinking a scary opponent could be a new creature that could make gameplay more chalenging. Imagine a species that lives in caves underground like ratbeasts but does not rely on vision to locate stuff in darkness but with sound like a bat sonar.
This could force the player to stick close in spots with loud and continouous sounds like generators or other machinery to cover his "sound" image. I believe this could create alot of tension ingame because machinery usually is close to light sources so the player would have to master his technique in sthealth using solely his sound feedback from the suroundings.:cool:

Platinumoxicity
14th May 2009, 10:59
There is NO undead faction! - Exactly what I wanted to hear. Yes, in T3 the designers made a mistake by making the pagans resurrect the dead. The zombies were much more frightening and mysterious when you had no idea how they came to be. I'd prefer that their origin would have never been truly revealed. I believe that I, and many other fans try to ignore the pagan connection to the undead.

Secondly, the chaos beasts should make a return too. What would it be like to break into their hives and steal some very rare alien treasures and artifacts? Since they are not human, that would crate some very interesting level designs. :)
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6171/buggie3lb8.th.png (http://img210.imageshack.us/my.php?image=buggie3lb8.png)

Durinda D'Bry
14th May 2009, 11:47
What I don't like in many games that I easily could understand character behaviour just by it's class - let's say I need 4-5 sword hits to slay haunt when fighting (well, sword or fighting is not thief style anyway:)). Well, better example for Thief is sensation parameters. Of course, tough enemy should not look like weak and I should have chance to guess some of his abilities. I think there is no need to put in game every legendary creature but make more sub-classes, personalize AIs and force stealth game player to be careful with them

Qazi
14th May 2009, 12:11
With the Keepers and their Glyphs gone. The balancers of The City are now in chaos. The Balance was more than just the Pagans and Hammerites.
The Keepers were responsible for keeping things like The Cathedral, the Lost City and the Kurshok sealed up and secret. They used Glyphs and such to do this.
There is loads of things to go awry in the state of the current City. Sub-factions, like the Mages, could discover some thing to attempt a rise to power, that the Keepers had hidden and forgot about long ago.
Afterall, they recorded everything using Glyphs. Which are now lost, with no living memory, and perhaps a little written, to recall everything. Hence, there is a myriad of scenarios available, not just limited to more Pagan and Hammerite woes. Of course, they'd be embroiled in it at some level, else it wouldn't be The City without Pagans and Hammers.

DarthEnder
14th May 2009, 18:16
Well, regardless of if you like it or not, there are Necromancers in the Thief world. So not all undead are naturally occurring.

I also agree with the "ratmen are kind of like werewolves" sentiment. I get the impression that beastmen probably come in varieties of whatever animals are commonly nearby. Hence, the most encountered beastmen in the city is Ratmen. Maybe out in the wilderness you have wolfmen, or bearmen. We already saw apemen in T2. And not surprisingly, in the depths of an undersea cavern, you have fishmen in the form of Kurshok.


I completely dissagree with the idea that vampires wouldn't fit into the Thief world. Between the whole game taking place at night, a world where all the dark corners are teeming with undead, and a city where the wealthy nobility tends to have powerful supernatural secrets, vampires seem like a perfect fit.

Prince_VLAD
14th May 2009, 18:33
How about a monster who ...TIPS you (it's appearance) of what you need to do next ? That way the monsters would be unique and also diverse ;) or...just a simple monk speaking Russian....loooool

Belboz
14th May 2009, 18:49
The last glyph at the end of thief 3 errased all glyphs from the thief world, so you couldn't have any glyph controled monsters as glyphs no-longer exist. You'lled have to switch to achemy symbols, liquids and solids to control any type of monster, so its back to zombies aka frankenstiens zombies, you could have them in a steampunk world, both the tricksters and viktoria are dead, the eye at the end of the dark project was used to kill the trickster, and viktoria used herself to destroy karras and the lost city bots via the rust gas, there wouldn't be anymore rust gas as karras got it from the lost city ruin and didn't make it himself. You would still have ghosts and phantoms and undead as they're not created via glyphs, the eye had something to do with the undead and thats still around. You would still have frogs, spiders (small and large) (not magic as they were created by the trickster, and he's dead), burricks (pretty sure the Hammerites did not erradicate every burrick nest under the city), rats, tree beasts (these would still exist even if the trickster and viktoria are not around anymore the old magic that wasn't controled by keeper glyphs would still be around).

DarthEnder
14th May 2009, 19:13
I believe glyph magic still exists through Garrett himself. He's the One True Keeper of the Glyphs.

So if, for instance, Garrett was some kind of antagonist in Thief 4, you could still very well see some kind of glyph powered enemy.

Herr_Garrett
14th May 2009, 19:23
a) No, it is not an axiom or established fact that the Glyphs are "deleted". They are gone, yes, but not annihilated. Additionally, other forms of magic are still present.
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126313

b) The gargoyles in DS were Gamall's doing, through Glyphs, so unless you have Glyphs, you can't have gargoyles.

c) Runes and Glyphs aren't the same, dudes.

d) Vampires totally do not fit the Thiefverse. At least, not classic vampires - moreover, we've already seen forms of vampirism (the unnamed Glyph which prolongs life by taking away others' vitality) and at least one pseudo-vampire, Gamall. She was using other people's lives and bodies to prolong and "enhance" her own! Drakula-like vampires are really small fry compared with Gamall.

e) Bioengineering is really overused these days (altough I only play Thief, but I have this impression). Let us steer Thief away from the waters of crass commercialism. :)
_________________________________

Actually, how about the unnamed Mechanist enemy from Unwelcome Guest? I rather liked its concept art and the way it was only mysteriously hinted at by Garrett.

Herr_Garrett
14th May 2009, 19:25
a) No, it is not an axiom or established fact that the Glyphs are "deleted". They are gone, yes, but not annihilated. Additionally, other forms of magic are still present.
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126313

b) The gargoyles in DS were Gamall's doing, through Glyphs, so unless you have Glyphs, you can't have gargoyles.

c) Runes and Glyphs aren't the same, dudes.

d) Vampires totally do not fit the Thiefverse. At least, not classic vampires - moreover, we've already seen forms of vampirism (the unnamed Glyph which prolongs life by taking away others' vitality) and at least one pseudo-vampire, Gamall. She was using other people's lives and bodies to prolong and "enhance" her own! Drakula-like vampires are really small fry compared with Gamall.

e) Bioengineering is really overused these days (altough I only play Thief, but I have this impression). Let us steer Thief away from the waters of crass commercialism. :)
_________________________________

Actually, how about the unnamed Mechanist enemy from Unwelcome Guest? I rather liked its concept art and the way it was only mysteriously hinted at by Garrett.

DarthEnder
14th May 2009, 19:38
You could have a gargoyle without Glyphs. A little Earth magic could probably do the trick.

Tatyana's Flowers
15th May 2009, 12:49
anything scary on the same level or better than we used to see in previous Thief games would be OK

also there were funny moments when we could see zombies,spiders and burricks were fighting each others and I wanna see that in T4

Subjective Effect
15th May 2009, 13:21
A necromancer and different types of undead. Freakier zombies and more cradle-like puppets.

Now that the Keepers are dissolved corrupt Keepers, similar to those in the Equilibrium FM, could exist. How about some zombie Keepers? Enforcers were very poorly done imho, so no more of them thanks.

Squall
15th May 2009, 17:37
I think the scariest enemy would be good AI! The thief series has always had the best AI at the time and they should keep it up.

Guards patrolling with burning torches and guard dogs would be an interesting opponent. "What is it boy, do you smell something? What the hell... who put this big leg of ham here?" <thud>

I'd like to see Garrett pitched against an opponent who uses stealth as well. That'd be scary. The keeper assassins were a good idea, if they'd been done with full roguish AI they'd have been brilliant! I want to have at least one rooftop chase in thief 4! :-)

Nate
15th May 2009, 18:55
Yeah, other characters using stealth would be cool.

Imagine trying to carry out a mission while a band of thieves happen to try to rob the same place and the same time = lots of fun for the whole family!

Petike the Taffer
15th May 2009, 23:57
My only plea :

Subtle creature presence, subtle and effective scares.
Please, no over-the-top monsterfests like in TDP (the only really bad thing about that one).

Unstoppable
16th May 2009, 00:11
I just got a great idea for a creature. It's a werewolf right like I said earlier but it's not a real werewolf. It's one created by a new enemy for Garrett. The creator and the creature itself would evolve with the storyline. It would at first appear to be a werewolf but then you will start to discover things and how to eventually defeat it. Could make for a cool fan mission heh.

Thieffanman
16th May 2009, 03:50
So far, the Thief universe has had these antagonists:

1) Religious zealots & spellcasters,
2) Undead,
3) Mutant creatures,
4) Animates (ie. the statues, mechanized creatures),
5) Regular people (ie. City Guard, armed citizens),
6) Gods (ie. The Trickster; The Hag)

(Add anything to the above list; I *know* I'm missing something :).)

. . . so, the question to ask is, "What *haven't* we seen yet in the 'Thief' universe that doesn't fall into the above categories, and would it work?"

1) Creatures made of energy: electricity, for example.
2) . . .?

. . . consider this, also: maybe the story doesn't need *new* creatures, but to simply improve the ones already in existence-- for example, the people wandering around TDS all night, but *on horseback*. Or maybe Guards on horseback :).

--Thieffanman

tender19
16th May 2009, 07:04
We didn't see guard dogs. Yep, they would be very frustrating, but one or two would be okay in a suburban area.

TeoRocker
16th May 2009, 07:09
I always liked to play with the idea of living statues, but not as it was (pretty badly) executed in DS. I'd rather like a statue that remains wholly inanimate and motionless up until you turn your back towards it. Then it springs alive with a quite horrible shriek-roar (the scream-breath-gurgle of the Cradle would be quite appropriate), and attacks you like hell, but very silently. With glowing eyes, and maybe some of the carvings start to glow as well.
How to disable them? a) try to chip off their carvings (the runes/Glyphs that animate them). If you succeed, they do not crumble or whatever, but stand still in the same position, with the same scary faces, possibly with their eyes slowly fading b) the goode olde Fyre Arrowe or c) mines, but that is rather uncouth :)

I'd hate to have my way blocked by a statue I disabled ;)

Herr_Garrett
16th May 2009, 08:53
We didn't see guard dogs. Yep, they would be very frustrating, but one or two would be okay in a suburban area.

Faszányos ötlet!

Necros
16th May 2009, 09:42
I thought of this: There's always some nice ambient audio in the Thief games right? So when this monster comes near, the birds and the crickets stop singing, then you know there is something wrong.
I love that idea! :thumb:

We didn't see guard dogs. Yep, they would be very frustrating, but one or two would be okay in a suburban area.
:hmm: I don't know, I'm not a big fan of that idea...

And I'd like to see new kinds of human enemies instead of monsters. Thief 2 was the best in the series IMHO because there were more human enemies in it (or at least it's one of the reasons). Of course a few of the classics should return but I'd like to play against mostly human enemies.

Qazi
16th May 2009, 11:29
1) Creatures made of energy: electricity, for example.


There have already been elementals. Fire elementals were rife in the Lost City.

Subjective Effect
16th May 2009, 12:20
Fire shadows!

I totally forgot about them. They were scary and with modern gfx could be very well implemented.

Platinumoxicity
16th May 2009, 13:25
Fire shadows!

I totally forgot about them. They were scary and with modern gfx could be very well implemented.

Totally agree! But...
The fire shadows in T1 looked too much like dudes on fire. I think they should look more like the one I've drawn on this pic. It's got all the characters from Thief Gold. :)
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/7994/thiefthecast.th.png (http://img43.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thiefthecast.png)

Thieffanman
16th May 2009, 19:22
There have already been elementals. Fire elementals were rife in the Lost City.

. . .completely missed that; it's been a decade since I've played the first Thief game :). Time for a refresher!

So, that still leaves the question: can there be something *new* in the Thief universe that hasn't been thought up yet?

--Thieffanman

CurtX
16th May 2009, 22:43
Burrick people. A product of what happened when a drunk guard (Benny?) had to much fun with an innocent female burrick.

hexhunter
24th May 2009, 22:46
Something I said which seemed to go down well on the TTLG forum was about necromancer's victims.
I'll link there rather than repeat myself. http://ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1860194#post1860194
Other Necro beasts could play on ideas of vampires (no fangs though, using necro/glyph magic like Gamall), frankensteins monster (merging necromancy and technology ie Karras's Servants), and other bizarre experiments in undeath.

Also, Hammerites would have their sects, like the Templars and Hospitaliers, from different cities, some specialise in the undead, others in primitive iron beasts, earth golems, etc.

Pagans are good, would like to see monkey beasts though, climbing trees and throwing stones.

I want to see rival thieves, souls, ex-keepers etc who use stealth as well as you, also more intelligent enemies like Hammer Inspectors, Mech Snipers, Watch Detectives, Pagan Trackers etc who could track you, follow you where most guards couldn't.

Just thought, what if Kurshok Hatchlings where like the eggs in alien, like land pirahnas, hundreds of eggs waiting for you to trip up so they can jump out and start eating you.

Mages are like Islam in the Islamic Golden Age, so EM should research their mythology.

Shadows is a good idea, good to link into overseas alien like threats.

Platinumoxicity
25th May 2009, 08:48
Feuer Schatten
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/2748/feuero.png
Unbeing
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/4980/unbeing.png

huzi73
25th May 2009, 09:55
Burrick people. A product of what happened when a drunk guard (Benny?) had to much fun with an innocent female burrick.

Lmao,rofl...Blooper reel

Platinumoxicity
25th May 2009, 11:37
I want the bugbeasts back, this time more "speed and stab", and less "slow and lulz". They could be working as pagan agents in their secret safehouses in the city.
Oh, those things were so funny. :) Good times and bug bites.
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/8868/buuu.png

hexhunter
25th May 2009, 12:07
I like your illustrations, Platinum. Would be good if some could fly aswell.

The Burrick-men could work, they'd be a bit like lizardmen in other works.

huzi73
25th May 2009, 13:35
I like your illustrations, Platinum. Would be good if some could fly aswell.

The Burrick-men could work, they'd be a bit like lizardmen in other works.

I cant help but imagine them having really heavy voices,speaking really loud

Platinumoxicity
25th May 2009, 13:52
I like your illustrations, Platinum. Would be good if some could fly aswell.

Thanks, and I made this quite a while ago. I made the yellow tattoos a little too bright so that they're more visible. 100% ms paint.
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5431/bugiwingss2.png


I cant help but imagine the burrick-men having really heavy voices,speaking really loud

Yeah, and their breath would smell so bad that Garrett could smell what they're saying anyway. :D

MasterTaffer
25th May 2009, 18:44
Nonono, not like that. The point is that with these sort of opponents, you'd be forced to consider just running through an empty hall with possibly a couple of statues in it - you'd be forced, so to say, to sneak more than run. The unexpectedness of these attacks is nothing more than a stray guard just entering the room.
Of course, the statues would behave like AI, not noticing you if you sneak well enough etc.
I rather imagine them as DrK's statues, only even more scary.

Sounds awfully similar to treebeasts in Thief 2.

DarthEnder
25th May 2009, 19:15
I found pictures of what I mean by different factions all having their own constructs to try and keep up with the Iron Beasts. These are various miniatures from the tabletop game Warmachine.

Hammerite construct, made of iron, powered by a steam furnace:
http://www.privateerpress.com/WARMACHINE/gallery/images/khador/warjacks/33003_destroyer_blister.jpg
Pagan construct, made of wood and stone, powered by a nature spirit:
http://www.tellurian.de/blog/media/72005_Woldwatcher_blister.jpg
Necromancer construct, made of iron, powered by a furnace that consumes souls:
http://www.privateerpress.com/WARMACHINE/gallery/images/cryx/warjacks/34056_nightmare.jpg
The Watch's constructs, like the Hammerite's, but not as advanced:
http://www.privateerpress.com/WARMACHINE/gallery/images/mercenaries/warjacks/41008_talon_blister.jpg
And the Nobility's expensive, fancy constructs that run on lightning powered clockworks:
http://www.privateerpress.com/WARMACHINE/gallery/thumbs/lrg-185-32035_avatar_of_menoth_box_set.jpg

Herr_Garrett
25th May 2009, 19:36
I found pictures of what I mean by different factions all having their own constructs to try and keep up with the Iron Beasts. These are various miniatures from the tabletop game Warmachine.

Hammerite construct, made of iron, powered by a steam furnace:

Pagan construct, made of wood and stone, powered by a nature spirit:

Necromancer construct, made of iron, powered by a furnace that consumes souls:

The Watch's constructs, like the Hammerite's, but not as advanced:

And the Nobility's expensive, fancy constructs that run on lightning powered clockworks:

Yes please, more World of Warcraft and Warhammer crap.

DarthEnder
25th May 2009, 19:48
It's steampunk.

huzi73
25th May 2009, 22:37
It's steampunk.

No,taffer,its Optimus Prime
No thanx,im perfectly happy without having Garrett steal the all spark from Megatron.I would like to have a seperate Transformers 2 movie,and a seperate THIAF game.thanx

Zahr Dalsk
25th May 2009, 23:48
No,taffer,its Optimus Prime

WARMACHINE is steampunk. If you disagree, odds are you've never actually familiarized yourself with WARMACHINE and are just talking out of your rear.

DarthEnder
26th May 2009, 00:22
WARMACHINE is steampunk. If you disagree, odds are you've never actually familiarized yourself with WARMACHINE and are just talking out of your rear./nod

Herr_Garrett
26th May 2009, 05:32
Steampunk, yes. Thief-ish, no.
Come on. These monsters of killing machines really don't fit into the Thiefverse.

By the way, as far as I know, both Warcraft and Warhammer uses the odd steampunk element, so, yes, it is steampunk. But not Thiefy steampunk, see?

DarthEnder
26th May 2009, 05:54
I guess I just don't see how the steam powered robot that shoots firebombs isn't thiefy but the steam powered robots that shoot firebombs in thief is thiefy somehow.

Or how the wooden construct plated with stones with pagan runes all over it is somehow less thiefy then a Tree Beast.


They're big scary steambots. You don't fight them, you go around them. Or shoot water in their tailpipes.

citywolfdreams
26th May 2009, 06:53
We need enemies that follow an entirely different format. A lot of Thief enemies (at least, in Thief 1 and 2) were very unique in terms of how you could take them down, and that gave them a distinct flavor. However, their search patterns did not vary at all, which means that if you were a "ghost" style player who tried to get through the whole game without being seen, this differences didn't really mean much. What we need more than anything is advanced AI with different search algorithms.

For example, the current AI just has three stages of alertness - unaware, alert, hostile.
====================
Unaware (Does not notice anything amiss) - Creature follows a preprogrammed patrol path.

Alert (Has noticed something "off") - Creature draws sword, claws, etc., wanders around for a bit, then goes back to unaware - or if it finds the player, goes to Hostile.

Hostile (Has confirmed presence of the player) - Creature attacks. If the player escapes somehow, it goes back to Alert, then finally Unaware.

=====================
This is unrealistic and makes the game too easy because all a player has to do is wait for long enough and their mistakes will be erased. This is okay for lower levels of difficulty, but most Thief gamers play specifically because they WANT a challenge. Here are my proposed AI changes for a more realistic and challenging level of play.
=====================
Unaware (has not noticed anything amiss) - Creature follows a preprogrammed search path, with one minor variance to keep "patrol pattern spotters" on their toes. For example, the guard might walk three times around the entire top floor of the mansion, then on the fourth tour he heads downstairs to talk to the maid, use the bathroom, or something of that sort, before resuming his usual routine.

Suspicious (Has definite confirmation of an intruder on the premises, although no reason to suspect the intruder is nearby) - Creature follows the same patrol pattern as before, but walks slower and is more alert. It modifies its normal patrol pattern slightly to peer into areas of deep shadow where people might hide.

Alert (Has noticed something slightly "off", blood, a door being open, etc) - Creature draws sword, claws, etc., wanders around for a bit, then goes back to unaware - or if it finds the player, goes to Hostile.

Alarmed (Does not see thief in the area but has hard confirmation of an intruder on the premises, like having found a unconscious body or personally seen the player at one point) - The creature behaves as though suspicious, but if there are areas of dark shadow along the patrol path (in other words, places where a Thief might hide) it will search through them. Furthermore, if it encounters another guard who is unaware, it communicates a verbal warning to that guard, setting his status to Suspicious.

Hostile (Creature is aware of the thief's presence) - Creature attacks. If the thief escapes, it's status changes to Alarmed, and does not drop below that for the rest of the mission.
====================

This would be a simple change in terms of programming - all you're doing is adding two new alertness states - but the overall effect on the AI would be profound. The net effect is that the messier the player is, the more the difficulty goes up exponentially. Kill a guard on one side of the estate, and any guard who finds the body becomes alarmed and will be very paranoid for the rest of the mission. Other guards whom he talks to might not entirely believe his story but they will be more suspicious. Furthermore, this change of alertness could be built into dialogue to add to the fun of the experience. Imagine you've just offed a guard and are sneaking down the hallway, when you see two guards pass each other. One of them says "Joe, there's a taffin' murderer on the premises! I found Johnny dead!" "Could it be a heart attack?" "No, there was blood. Keep your eyes open."

What do you think? IN my opinion, having a good AI is much more important that the enemy type, since it doesn't matter how badass or scary an enemy might be if it never even sees you.

citywolfdreams
26th May 2009, 07:32
Although I believe that the AI will be the most important part of this game, I realize that people do want new enemies, so here are my suggestions for new enemies. What makes these enemies unique is that they will be scary to "ghost-style" players because they have special ways of finding people that will force ghost-style players to adapt their strategies. With current enemies, it doesn't matter how tough they are because people can just observe their patrol patterns to ghost through the mission. The following enemies are intended to be scary specifically to ghost-style players.

1) Airborne opponents (Harpies? Vampires? Mechanical helicopters?)
Longtime thief players have a tendency to seek high altitudes (like rooftops and such) for a number of reasons. First of all, it makes it easy to get a lay of the land. Second, if you are spotted by a guard, you're out of reach of whatever spotted you, so it's easy to get away, even if you might take an arrow. Having flying monsters would change that dynamic. Imagine climbing in the rafters of a church in the old quarter to find that - oh, those things hanging from the ceiling are old-school vampires, leathery bat wings and all. Having to glance up at the sky occasionally will add an element of tension to any would-be thief.

2) Opponents who can track by scent. (Guard dogs? It could even be guard burricks for players who choose a high difficulty level).
Many ghost-type players are complacent about turtling in the shadows. "Use a flashbomb, get to a shadow at least 50 feet away, and then wait for the search to die down." That's their motto. Now imagine how scared a ghost player would be the first time that didn't work. The guard says to his dog "Come on boy, find that dirty taffer." The dog starts sniffing, and they keep walking closer and closer to the shadow where you're hidden...

Of course, there should be limitations on smell, so that clever players can find a way around it. For example, smashing a vial of women's perfume will leave a "scent bomb" behind, causing any dog that wanders into the cloudto whimper and run away. Submerging in water could also erase your scent for a brief time. The idea of the scent-based foe is to add an element of time pressure, so you can't just sit in one place and wait for your enemy to go away.

3) Opponents that can walk through solid objects. (Ghosts? Strange Pagan creatures?) These are not as dangerous as they sound, since they can't hear or see through walls - they just move through them. However, in terms of fear factor, such creatures would be absolutely terrifying to ghost-style players, since they can appear anywhere. To make the most of this "creep factor" their patrol path should specifically take them through walls occasionally. Consider the ghost-style player who is about to dash through the hallway... then sees a phantom walk out through one wall, cross the hallway, and disappear into another.

4) Sneaks. (Monkey-beasts? Bloodsucking bats? Perhaps even... other thieves?)
The idea behind skirmishers is to make players afraid of the AI by having creatures that can break out of their established patrol patterns. Skirmishers would be opponents that are hard to see in areas of shadows, because their coloring blends in, and because they stay motionless and silent when they are trying to hide. They attack the player once, then immediately run away and hide... but then start *following* the player, peeping around corners to keep him in line of sight (the sameway Garrett would do to a guard). When the players stands still with his back to them for a certain period of time (usually because he is studying a guards patrol path) the skirmisher runs out of hiding, hits him from behind, then runs away again. The AI for a skirmisher might be difficult to program (honestly, this type of detailed algorithm might have to wait for Thief 5) but if done correctly, it could easily become the most feared monster in Thief. And players have been clamoring for a while now that Garrett should have to deal with OTHER stealthy characters. Now is the chance to make them happy. (Or scared, as the case may be) :-)

huzi73
26th May 2009, 08:21
WARMACHINE is steampunk. If you disagree, odds are you've never actually familiarized yourself with WARMACHINE and are just talking out of your rear.

Ok,I havent even heard of warmachine,but what im saying is,the reason TMA had an excessive amount robots,is because that was part of the games theme.read the back of the TDP/GOLD cover (I think)you'll see they refer to the game setting as medievil.Now,if the devs say medievil than I think it was more medievil,less steampunk (same applies to TDS) TMA was definately more steampunk/victorian (less medievil...or almost none of it).All i'm saying is,I just simply dont understand why you want every faction to have some kind of mech...or whatever it is.The machanists were way ahead of time technology wise compared to the Hammers.That is why they had robots.and their robots were way less shiny,warhammer looking than the ones you posted.I applaud the return of Mechanists,and robots,but on a lesser scale than TMA (unless this game is THI4f:TMA 2) .Look its just my opinion,im sure many will differ,but while I applaud your fresh take on things,I have 2 issues regarding your idea:

1)I cant see why every faction should have a similar type of robot/thingy,since they will all be similar in form and function,just mere reskins of the same concept
2)Leave Mechs to the mechanists

Subjective Effect
26th May 2009, 08:31
Steampunk is a broad description people.

Star Wars is sci-fi, as is Star Trek, but they are so different and the "worlds" totally incompatible.

Thief is retro-steampunk if anything. Once it gets too modern it just doesn't fit.

Herr_Garrett
26th May 2009, 08:31
Ok,I havent even heard of warmachine,but what im saying is,the reason TMA had an excessive amount robots,is because that was part of the games theme.read the back of the TDP/GOLD cover (I think)you'll see they refer to the game setting as medievil.Now,if the devs say medievil than I think it was more medievil,less steampunk (same applies to TDS) TMA was definately more steampunk/victorian (less medievil...or almost none of it).All i'm saying is,I just simply dont understand why you want every faction to have some kind of mech...or whatever it is.The machanists were way ahead of time technology wise compared to the Hammers.That is why they had robots.and their robots were way less shiny,warhammer looking than the ones you posted.I applaud the return of Mechanists,and robots,but on a lesser scale than TMA (unless this game is THI4f:TMA 2) .Look its just my opinion,im sure many will differ,but while I applaud your fresh take on things,I have 2 issues regarding your idea:

1)I cant see why every faction should have a similar type of robot/thingy,since they will all be similar in form and function,just mere reskins of the same concept
2)Leave Mechs to the mechanists

While disastrous in spelling, you really spelled out my thoughts.
Since there were no automatons in DS, it means that unless there is a return of Mechanists, there shan't be automatons anymore - given that Thief IV shall take place shortly after DS

huzi73
26th May 2009, 10:48
While disastrous in spelling, you really spelled out my thoughts.
Since there were no automatons in DS, it means that unless there is a return of Mechanists, there shan't be automatons anymore - given that Thief IV shall take pace shortly after DS

Excuse the typo(s),:scratch:But heck,If I had the time and patience,I would have wrote everything in thiefsie speak instead...

DarthEnder
26th May 2009, 16:53
While disastrous in spelling, you really spelled out my thoughts.
Since there were no automatons in DS, it means that unless there is a return of Mechanists, there shan't be automatons anymore - given that Thief IV shall take place shortly after DSI don't buy it. The Iron beasts were very powerful and useful tools, and even with the mechanists gone, I don't believe that some Lord(maybe even the Baron himself) somewhere wouldn't have snatched up a mechanist engineer or two after the collapse of the organization because he didn't want his house defenses breaking down.

And once you have one Lord maintaining his machines, others will follow suit in a matter of status. Then they'll start trying to make even better machines trying to one-up each other.

And of course, with the nobility so-armed, organizations like the Watch and the Hammers will have to follow suit or else risk losing their power base.
Ok,I havent even heard of warmachine,but what im saying is,the reason TMA had an excessive amount robots,is because that was part of the games theme.read the back of the TDP/GOLD cover (I think)you'll see they refer to the game setting as medievil.Now,if the devs say medievil than I think it was more medievil,less steampunkYou have to keep in mind that "steampunk" wasn't an actual term back then. Or at least, not one very many people had ever heard of. In fact, it's weird that the phase is a take-off on Cyberpunk, but has become the word for an entire genre just because there's no better phrase to describe it(there's no actualy "punk" in steampunk after all). It's not likely that they are going to put something that esoteric on the back of the game box.

huzi73
26th May 2009, 19:56
I don't buy it. The Iron beasts were very powerful and useful tools, and even with the mechanists gone, I don't believe that some Lord(maybe even the Baron himself) somewhere wouldn't have snatched up a mechanist engineer or two after the collapse of the organization because he didn't want his house defenses breaking down.

And once you have one Lord maintaining his machines, others will follow suit in a matter of status. Then they'll start trying to make even better machines trying to one-up each other.

And of course, with the nobility so-armed, organizations like the Watch and the Hammers will have to follow suit or else risk losing their power base.You have to keep in mind that "steampunk" wasn't an actual term back then. Or at least, not one very many people had ever heard of. In fact, it's weird that the phase is a take-off on Cyberpunk, but has become the word for an entire genre just because there's no better phrase to describe it(there's no actualy "punk" in steampunk after all). It's not likely that they are going to put something that esoteric on the back of the game box.

Good point,it will be totally hillarious if STEAMPUNK does appear somewhere on the back of the THIAF 4 box.Id be delighted if my persistent bickering on the forums actually ends up influencing what appears on the box.Oh well...(crosses fingers)

BoldEnglishman
26th May 2009, 22:31
The Iron beasts were very powerful and useful tools

Oh really? Where is the evidence to support this? Garrett was able to circumvent all Iron beasts he encountered, you never see an Iron beast attack another character in-game, even a whole group of iron beasts was unable to defeat Victoria (she committed suicide), and even Karras:

a) identifies their weakness in Eavesdropping (stating the whole pour-water-in-the-aft-boiler technique),
b) and in Sabotage at Soulforge, where in one of the journals it is mentioned that Karras says the Iron beasts are lesser than humans as they cannot perform many tasks (due to not actually having useful appendages)

I remember reading in First City Bank and Trust that the guards were proud there had been no break-ins for 6 years prior to the mission, and that they felt no need to increase their security with all the Mechanist technology. After spending so much money on Mechanist technology and maintaining said technology - and then having it FAIL to perform effectively and prevent all their money from being taken - would probably lead the owners of said technology to dispose of it.

By the end of the Metal Age, I should imagine that a lot of the nobles were acting similar to Gervasius - who hired a Mechanist priestess to update his security and his mansion with Mechanist technology. Did it suceed in preventing Garrett from robbing his entire collection? Nope. I think one of the reasons why the technology was not lambasted more was because most of the thieves were in the City Watch, enforcing the law rather than breaking it, so there was not as great an opportunity to identify flaws in the technology.

Furthermore, the Mechanists were very similar to the Hammerites - the only reason they dealt with the nobles was because they were deceiving them, and many of the Mechanists absolutely despised the nobles 'who considered themselves superior due to the wealth of their coffers rather than their spirits'. Due to this anti-noble attitude, I don't think any Mechanist is going to continue working for a noble simply because the noble orders them to.

So in short:

- Iron beasts as useful tools? Nope - good for playing the flute and running around like an idiot (the servant bots), but probably not worth the cost of maintenance
- Iron beasts as useful weapons? Nope - there is even a discussion in Assassins: "I think you put too much faith in the Mechanists, they are after all only a splinter group of the Hammerites - hardly a military force".
- Mechanists willing to live/work with nobles? Nope because just like everybody else who isn't a Mechanist, they hate nobles.

hexhunter
27th May 2009, 00:26
- Mechanists willing to live/work with nobles? Nope because just like everybody else who isn't a Mechanist, they hate nobles.

I'm sure they hate not having a job more, surely thats how the Mechanists came around in the first place, bunch of inventors, one of whom is mad, team up with a bunch of nobles looking for religion and willing to sell it to other nobles so that they can sell their creations but their leader, charismatic and flawless as he may seem, is autophobic and his followers are idiots/blind/unfortunate and therefore willing to die for his wills...

DarthEnder, I see where you're coming from but rune controlled golems and soul harvesting machines are both warhammer stuff, the idea that rich nobles may play around with iron beasts is good though.

Necromancers in Thief, I think, could have something akin to Frankenstein's Monster, a large creature who is a mix between a zombie and a mech; also that some Hammerites might specialise in machinery makes sense, others may specialise in golems, undead or fighting. They would be like the different monastic sects, Templars, Hospitaliers and Teutonic.

DarthEnder
27th May 2009, 04:22
- Iron beasts as useful tools? Nope - good for playing the flute and running around like an idiot (the servant bots), but probably not worth the cost of maintenance
- Iron beasts as useful weapons? Nope - there is even a discussion in Assassins: "I think you put too much faith in the Mechanists, they are after all only a splinter group of the Hammerites - hardly a military force".
- Mechanists willing to live/work with nobles? Nope because just like everybody else who isn't a Mechanist, they hate nobles.Just because Garrett and and Viktoria can beat them doesn't mean they aren't far stronger than a guardsman. Garrett is a singularly skilled infiltrator, and Viktoria has huge amounts of magic.

If you put an Iron Beast up against 10 guards with swords and bows, the Iron Beast is going to win.

And Mechanists definitely do not hate nobles. Half the nobles in the city had a mechanist chapel in their houses.

Herr_Garrett
27th May 2009, 05:50
Listen, DarthEnder. Yes, steampunk is good stuff. Yes, war machines and automatons may be cool. But in Thief, the idea that every "faction" should have their own warmachine is really... weird. The Hammers never went much in the way of building automatons, the Pagans don't, at all; the Necros have the zombies and the Watch all the men they want.

Yes, yes, it would be cool to have the streets patrolled by huge warmachines, but not in the City and not in Thief. Another steampunk game might include them, but hopefully not Thief.

You see, while Thief indeed has steampunk elements, it is not primarily steampunk. It is a sort of industrially tuned-up Mediaeval city in DP, and in MA it is closer to diesel- and cyberpunk than to steampunk. In DS, we are back to the world and imagery of DP. Another cyber-diesel-industrial upheaval would be incongruent, and, seeing that there are no Mechanists any more, inexplicable.

Also, after the fiasco with the Mechanists, I do not think the Hammers would ever allow anyone to build automatons again, the least of that they themselv should create something like that.

And big effin' killing machines are, you know, very cliché.

huzi73
27th May 2009, 07:36
Listen, DarthEnder. Yes, steampunk is good stuff. Yes, war machines and automatons may be cool. But in Thief, the idea that every "faction" should have their own warmachine is really... weird. The Hammers never went much in the way of building automatons, the Pagans don't, at all; the Necros have the zombies and the Watch all the men they want.

Yes, yes, it would be cool to have the streets patrolled by huge warmachines, but not in the City and not in Thief. Another steampunk game might include them, but hopefully not Thief.

You see, while Thief indeed has steampunk elements, it is not primarily steampunk. It is a sort of industrially tuned-up Mediaeval city in DP, and in MA it is closer to diesel- and cyberpunk than to steampunk. In DS, we are back to the world and imagery of DP. Another cyber-diesel-industrial upheaval would be incongruent, and, seeing that there are no Mechanists any more, inexplicable.

Also, after the fiasco with the Mechanists, I do not think the Hammers would ever allow anyone to build automatons again, the least of that they themselv should create something like that.

And big effin' killing machines are, you know, very cliché.

nods head uncontrollably

Platinumoxicity
27th May 2009, 07:59
Yep, I think that "Metal Gears" are only good for the mechanist locks in Truart's Mansion. :) Now let's focus our attention on the "frumious bandersnatch".

Herr_Garrett
27th May 2009, 08:06
The frumious bandesnatch was mentioned in MA, wasn't it?
Now all we have to do is add a Jabberwocky. Oh, and add some toves so that the Burricks won't be the only cuties in the game :)

Direlord
27th May 2009, 15:40
I'll have to look up more on warmachine I play warhammer and it looks interesting. I would like to see the mechanist come back in some sense maybe not the iron golems but the watcher eyes should be sticking around IMO. I can see the baron using the old mechanists to secure his place and support his armies. I can see a mission where you see a giant golem in construction for use in the barons army. However i don't think it should be wide spread at all. The tree beast or so is like a golem but should stay more a monster. The old fashioned hammerites as well as the city watch should not have any mechanical robots.

Caranfin
27th May 2009, 17:10
Listen, DarthEnder. Yes, steampunk is good stuff. Yes, war machines and automatons may be cool. But in Thief, the idea that every "faction" should have their own warmachine is really... weird. The Hammers never went much in the way of building automatons, the Pagans don't, at all; the Necros have the zombies and the Watch all the men they want.

Yes, yes, it would be cool to have the streets patrolled by huge warmachines, but not in the City and not in Thief. Another steampunk game might include them, but hopefully not Thief.

You see, while Thief indeed has steampunk elements, it is not primarily steampunk. It is a sort of industrially tuned-up Mediaeval city in DP, and in MA it is closer to diesel- and cyberpunk than to steampunk. In DS, we are back to the world and imagery of DP. Another cyber-diesel-industrial upheaval would be incongruent, and, seeing that there are no Mechanists any more, inexplicable.

Also, after the fiasco with the Mechanists, I do not think the Hammers would ever allow anyone to build automatons again, the least of that they themselv should create something like that.

And big effin' killing machines are, you know, very cliché.
Listen to this man.

3 Fingered Jack
27th May 2009, 17:49
Lifting some of the ideas of the previous posts of dogs and werewolves- We’ve all had that situation where the guard is walking inches away from us and we are holding our breath that he doesn’t notices us. Now imagine if that guard suddenly stops, sniffs the air, drops to all fours and starts following Garret's scent trail. Maybe a physical change as well but subtle and more in line with the thief world than a full werewolf. Have him move and attack from weird angles too i.e. along the walls or from the ceiling. You might need special things to throw them off the scent (pun accepted) such as perfumes or a river… IDK Anything can be scary if it is played out properly. The little golden children from T2 creeped me out….

There are some pretty heavy Cthulhu references in the thief world, draw from them and put the thief spin and you’ve got all kinds of horrible stuff.

BoldEnglishman
27th May 2009, 18:07
I'm sure they hate not having a job more

What? Mechanists don't have jobs - they aren't paid. They are members of a religion, they do not get paid by Karras at the end of the week. Looking through the journals in "Eavesdropping", you can see that the nobles are giving donations to the Mechanists in an attempt to secure further gifts. The Mechanists, much like the Hammerites, live and work on site wherever they are stationed, self-catering and not employed in the technical sense of the word.

Also, the only reason the Mechanists gave their products as gifts to nobles was because Karras knew that the nobles were the homes of the gardens, and the only homes where the Necrotic Mutox could be unleashed to it's full effect. It wasn't some sort of symbiotic relationship - the nobles receiving gifts was because it was a necessary part of Karras' master plan to bring about the "Builder's paradise", not because the Mechanists needed money.


Half the nobles in the city had a mechanist chapel in their houses.

Again, just as with the Iron beasts, where is the evidence? This is all speculation - jumping to conclusions. We see that Truart has a Hammerite chapel in his house, and Gervasius has a Mechanist shrine, but who else? Looking at the guest list in "Life of the Party", 2 nobles (just consider Truart to be a noble for simplicity's sake) hardly accounts for an average. We have no idea how popular the Mechanists truly were - the locales we see and visit in Thief II are, for the most part, areas of heavy Mechanist influence (because who is Garrett fighting? oh yeah! the Mechanists!) - they also do not count for the whole of the city. Even listening to a conversation in "Life of the Party", not all of the guests even like the Mechanists: the Rothchilds (who were invited to the party at Angelwatch) claim "we don't intend to join their silly religion or anything".

MasterTaffer
27th May 2009, 19:44
As selfish as the nobility is in the Thief universe, I can garuntee they were showing Mechanist support just to get their hands on all the neat machines they were offering for donations: the cameras, metal beasts and servants.

As for the Mechanists themselves, most of them probably went crawling back to the Hammerites and begged the Builder for mercy and forgiveness. Karras was the driving force behind the Mechanist movement, and without his charisma its likely that most of the order lost hope. Others may have abandoned the Order after they saw that Karras intended to turn them all into servants. The truly devoted Mechanists were probably executed as heretics by the Hammers, or might be rotting in Cragscleft right now.

All of this is speculation on my part, but as far as I'm concerned the Mechanists are dead, their members either re-absorbed into the Hammers or killed off. Look to another group for a worthy antagonist and let sleeping dogs lay.

DarthEnder
28th May 2009, 08:42
I guess I just don't find the idea of different types of constructs to be any stupider than the the 50 "lets cross a man with a wolf/bug/random animal to create a new pagan enemy!" ideas that are in this thread.
the Pagans don't, at all; The pagan construct is really just a treebeast with stone armor plates.


and in MA it is closer to diesel- and cyberpunk than to steampunk. That's...just plain not true. What exactly was dieselpunk or cyberpunk about MA? The complete lack of cybernetics?(EDIT:Wait...I forgot about Garrett's eye. Nevermind.) The lack of any engine in the entire game that wasn't a steam furnace?


Also, after the fiasco with the Mechanists, I do not think the Hammers would ever allow anyone to build automatons again.Right, cause if the Baron decides he want's them for his armies, the Hammerites could do jack all to stop him.

And big effin' killing machines are, you know, very cliché.Iron Beasts aren't any taller than guardsmen.


Again, just as with the Iron beasts, where is the evidence?My evidence is that two of the three mansions that are actually IN the game are full of mechanist defenses. Where's your evidence that half the cities nobles AREN'T mechanist sympathizers?

Platinumoxicity
28th May 2009, 09:01
Bla bla battlerobots, blabla armored treebeasts, bla bla pagans bla Hammerites blabla

For taff's sake forget about the Warhammer/Mechwarrior/StarWars/Evangelion battle robots already! No matter how hard you try, you can never make them part of a Thief game in a sense that would improve the gameplay! It's a sneaking game, not Robot Wars! And yes, the Iron Beasts did think with the boiling water in their steam engine, not with a cybernetic brain. We don't need more robots! There are plenty of other non-human opponents that we haven't seen in a long while.

Taffin' Cripes, can you believe these guys? Bloody 'ell.

DarthEnder
28th May 2009, 10:52
I could say the same thing to you about "blah blah tyranids" "blah blah zerg" with your bugmen.

The problem with the other non-human opponents is they all act the SAME as human opponents. Ratmen. Craymen. Kurshock. They're all the same. They're just human guardsmen with different skins. It's a rat guard, a lobster guard, a fish guard. You walk up behind them and knock them out.

Iron Beasts at least added new play elements to the game. They were immune to most of the things that guards weren't, and you had to deal with them in a completely different fashion.

GmanPro
28th May 2009, 10:54
^^ Exactly. Sometimes I wonder if TTLG started off with the concept that they wanted a new type of enemy that would force the player to rethink their strategy. And in the end they decided that robots fit the bill. As opposed to just throwing them in because they wanted robots for no other reason than because they fit the story.

huzi73
28th May 2009, 11:01
I say bring back the Mechanists!!!Heck as long as EM gives us a decent story/reason behind their return,i'll buy it.That way,Mechs can return under the Mechanist reason and no one will complain.All in all,TMA was an evolution,moreso than TDS was.Simply because of the robot thingies.Seems as if some of you are opposed to evolution.Heck,as long as it fits in,I'll gladly accept.Just dont give the Pagans,Undead,Hammers or City Watch robots,that would plain suck...Leave them to the Mechanists

Platinumoxicity
28th May 2009, 11:04
I could say the same thing to you about "blah blah tyranids" "blah blah zerg" with your bugmen.

The problem with the other non-human opponents is they all act the SAME as human opponents. Ratmen. Craymen. Kurshock. They're all the same. They're just human guardsmen with different skins. It's a rat guard, a lobster guard, a fish guard. You walk up behind them and knock them out.

Iron Beasts at least added new play elements to the game. They were immune to most of the things that guards weren't, and you had to deal with them in a completely different fashion.

But if you were talking about man-controlled warmachines, they couldn't hear anything Garrett was doing outside because of all the mechanical sounds and *clang* *clang* footsteps. Thief 2 didn't have noise cover, so even if you didn't hear yourself because the mechanical monstrosity was walking in the room next door, he could still hear you.

Anyway, as someone said earlier, mechs and warmachines somehow aren't "Thiefy" steampunk. I don't know why or how, they just are.

P.S. (tyranid, zerg wut?)

BoldEnglishman
28th May 2009, 11:09
Iron Beasts at least added new play elements to the game. They were immune to most of the things that guards weren't, and you had to deal with them in a completely different fashion.

This is not true. You can deal with Iron beasts the exact same way you can with the guards, the only weapon that works on guards that doesn't work on Iron beasts is the sword and broadhead arrows and gas mines.

You can fire water arrows in their boiler (obviously), I believe you can shoot gas arrows into their boiler (not sure haven't checked), flash mines and flash bombs still blind them temporarily, fire arrows and mines blow them up (along with Frogbeast Eggs), and you can run up to them with blackjacks and smack 'em until they fall to pieces. If the Iron beast is completely unaware of you, you can run up with the blackjack and hit them so quickly that they have no time to come out of their 'pain state'.

Besides, like any other enemy in Thief, all of this means nothing when you can simply walk around them and avoid them completely, just like any other human guard.

I'm not saying putting more beasts into the game is the solution - I don't know what the "new scary opponent" should be, to be honest - but I don't think including more Iron beasts in any large quantity as seen in Thief II is the answer either.

GmanPro
28th May 2009, 11:15
I think that the idea is to make enemies that require the player to rethink their strategy. Iron beasts, cameras, guards with helmets so they can't be blackjacked. They made the gameplay more interesting by shaking things up. Gradually adding to the difficulty curve. I'm not sure what the next type of enemy evolution would be ... but following the same principles as above. It would be something that requires the player to come up with a new approach.

Maybe guards with shaded visors who cannot be blinded with flashbombs ... ?

DarthEnder
28th May 2009, 11:25
Anyway, as someone said earlier, mechs and warmachines somehow aren't "Thiefy" steampunk. I don't know why or how, they just are.Well, you and that other guy are just wrong. They're the primary enemy of the most Thiefy game in the Thief series.


P.S. (tyranid, zerg wut?)Insect races from other series.



Maybe guards with shaded visors who cannot be blinded with flashbombs ... ?Totally. Also the gas mask.

Platinumoxicity
28th May 2009, 11:27
This is not true. You can deal with Iron beasts the exact same way you can with the guards, the only weapon that works on guards that doesn't work on Iron beasts is the sword and broadhead arrows and gas mines.

You can fire water arrows in their boiler (obviously), I believe you can shoot gas arrows into their boiler (not sure haven't checked), flash mines and flash bombs still blind them temporarily, fire arrows and mines blow them up (along with Frogbeast Eggs), and you can run up to them with blackjacks and smack 'em until they fall to pieces. If the Iron beast is completely unaware of you, you can run up with the blackjack and hit them so quickly that they have no time to come out of their 'pain state'.

Besides, like any other enemy in Thief, all of this means nothing when you can simply walk around them and avoid them completely, just like any other human guard.

I'm not saying putting more beasts into the game is the solution - I don't know what the "new scary opponent" should be, to be honest - but I don't think including more Iron beasts in any large quantity as seen in Thief II is the answer either.

Aaaand... If EM includes noise cover in T4, The Iron Beasts are easy to avoid because if they're not standing still, they can never hear you. :)

DarthEnder
28th May 2009, 11:29
Aaaand... If EM includes noise cover in T4, The Iron Beasts are easy to avoid because if they're not standing still, they can never hear you. :)What if one of type has a second head...IN THE BACK! Dun dun DUUUUN!

GmanPro
28th May 2009, 11:29
On a side note. I tried on several occasions to walk in unison with the larger Iron Beasts in TMA as a means to mask my footsteps but it never worked. :(

Platinumoxicity
28th May 2009, 11:30
Well, you and that other guy are just wrong. They're the primary enemy of the most Thiefy game in the Thief series.

The Iron Beasts are Thiefy steampunk indeed. Again, I don't know how, but they are. And the mechanical FFX warmachines don't seem to be. There's no way to prove these points because they're opinions though.

Edit: I just noticed that a while ago I tried to stop you guys rambling about warmachines and now I'm doing it myself. Noooo! :mad2:

DarthEnder
28th May 2009, 11:32
Yeah, I'm not sure what we're arguing about anymore.



Anyway, I always was annoyed that guards reacted to a disabled Iron Beast like it was a dead body. I always felt like they should have responded to it the same way they respond to a torch you doused. Just a kind of "Huh, boiler went out. Well, that's crazy contraptions for ya."

Caranfin
28th May 2009, 11:33
The cameras and stuff are a nice change of pace from just regular guards, as are the zombies and other enemies and obstacles that require you to rethink your strategies. They shouldn't be over-used, though. And I think giving all the factions their own constructs just feels wrong. It would make it seem more like a game, rather than a real world, to me.


^^ Exactly. Sometimes I wonder if TTLG started off with the concept that they wanted a new type of enemy that would force the player to rethink their strategy.
I think you mean LGS instead of TTLG? It's not like the fan community did the design choices, is it?

GmanPro
28th May 2009, 11:33
I think you mean LGS instead of TTLG? It's not like the fan community did the design choices, is it?

Through the Looking Glass (studio)

Platinumoxicity
28th May 2009, 11:34
DBL pst

Platinumoxicity
28th May 2009, 11:35
Movingon...

Now... How about them Elementals then? ;)

Caranfin
28th May 2009, 11:36
Through the Looking Glass (studio)
Looking Glass Studios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looking_Glass_Studios)

DarthEnder
28th May 2009, 11:37
Now... How about them Elementals then? ;)Love em. Especially if each one is weak against a specific arrow type.

I'd like them to have more substance though. The fire elemental is literally just a floating fireball. I'd like them to have more definition than that. Arms, head, that kinda thing.


Looking Glass Studios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looking_Glass_Studios)*sigh* Ken Levine and Warren Spector. They're so dreamy...

Herr_Garrett
28th May 2009, 18:26
I'd like them to have more substance though. The fire elemental is literally just a floating fireball. I'd like them to have more definition than that. Arms, head, that kinda thing.


You had the Fire Shadows for that, although I agree that they are not the same at all.
Elements are fine, but not used overmuch. And I don't think that you could make water or earth elements fit into the game now - in the previous titles, while there were extensive water-y and earth-y ares, no trace of them was found, not even in readables. Air elementals would be cool, though.


Just to explain what I meant by saying that MA is more diesel- and cyberpunk than steam, and not to continue the issue: the whole technology, rubber, plastic, gramophones, cameras, 99% airtight buildings/vehicles, radars, endless assembly belts and whatnot, that's dieselpunk even if it's powered by steam. At least, those were invented in our world in the age of the diesel, not in that of the steam. Cyber: the Servants, the Bots, the Mech-spiders, the cameras. These strike me as more cyberpunk-ish elements.
Explanation closed.

Hypevosa
28th May 2009, 18:43
Scariest enemy I can think of in thief... Something that latches onto me and makes noise AND generates light... that would be scary ****.

Imagine, you're sitting in the shadows listening to 4 guards talking about all the nice treasure and where to find it, when you hear to your right *crick crick crick*.... You look to see what appears to be a large black lady bug with a bright yellow glowing ass (who's a male attempting to attract a female). It sees your hood and thinks it's a black lady bug who wants some loving. So it flies at you, attaching to the back of your head, glowing as bright as it can begging for that buggy love, cricking louder and louder. The guards look on and break out laughing and collapse on the floor as you run in circles trying to get it off. Eventually it tires, and flies away, the guards still incapacitated with laughter, you find another shadow, and make note to shoot every one of those damn bugs you see.

:D Just a fun scenario. But seriously, something that attaches to you for some reason and produces light and/or sound until you remove it (by entering water), until it leaves (after like 10 seconds), or if you go near a bright light source which it thinks is another bug, would be scary as hell. in the right situations. I don't need an enemy that 1 hit kills me, but an enemy that removes my ability to hide... well that would we awesome and sucky at the same time.

DarthEnder
28th May 2009, 19:21
You had the Fire Shadows for that, although I agree that they are not the same at all.Why don't I know what people are talking about when they say Fire Shadows? What the hell is a Fire Shadow?


Elements are fine, but not used overmuch. And I don't think that you could make water or earth elements fit into the game now - in the previous titles, while there were extensive water-y and earth-y ares, no trace of them was found, not even in readables. Air elementals would be cool, though.There's mention of water elementals in the mages towers. The flooding of the water tower was caused by a botched experiment involving them. It's in one of the level's readables.



Just to explain what I meant by saying that MA is more diesel- and cyberpunk than steam, and not to continue the issue: the whole technology, rubber, plastic, gramophones, cameras, 99% airtight buildings/vehicles, radars, endless assembly belts and whatnot, that's dieselpunk even if it's powered by steam. At least, those were invented in our world in the age of the diesel, not in that of the steam. Cyber: the Servants, the Bots, the Mech-spiders, the cameras. These strike me as more cyberpunk-ish elements.
Explanation closed.Alright, I get your explanation, but the the "punkness' of a setting isn't determined by the effects of the technology available, but by the time period, the artistic style, and the power source used in technology.

A cybernetic arm may be cybernetic, but once you put a boiler in it, make it out of raw iron, and slap it on a midevil guard, it's steampunk, not cyberpunk.

MasterTaffer
28th May 2009, 19:28
Why don't I know what people are talking about when they say Fire Shadows? What the hell is a Fire Shadow?

A shadowy figure that is wreathed in flame that appears in the Thief Gold versions of Down in the Bonehoard and The Haunted Cathedral. It attacks with its bare hands and makes the same sounds as a fire elemental. It is basicly indestructable, if hit it with a water arrow or cause enough damage to it, it will drop a fire crystal and beat feat faster than you can chase it, only to return to the same spot later.

The reason it was added by LGS in Thief Gold was to add a never ending source of fire crystals in levels that require the use of them to light torches, like to enter the Keeper Grotto in THC, or to go after the Mystic's Soul in DitB.

Found a picture on Lytha.com. (Thank that lass fer me...)

http://www.lytha.com/thief/images/lythaway/huge/bh_fireshadow.jpg

citywolfdreams
29th May 2009, 04:44
Scariest enemy I can think of in thief... Something that latches onto me and makes noise AND generates light... that would be scary ****.
:D Just a fun scenario. But seriously, something that attaches to you for some reason and produces light and/or sound until you remove it (by entering water), until it leaves (after like 10 seconds), or if you go near a bright light source which it thinks is another bug, would be scary as hell. in the right situations. I don't need an enemy that 1 hit kills me, but an enemy that removes my ability to hide... well that would we awesome and sucky at the same time.

I like the way you think. I've said this a million times myself - enemies in Thief are no longer scary once you've reached the level of skill where you can ghost through a level, it doesn't MATTER how badass the enemies are since they never even see you. A genuinely scary enemy in Thief wouldn't be something that's tough or hard to injure, it'd something that screws with your stealth and escape capabilities, whether by generating light (ladybugs?), smelling you even if you're completely hidden (guard dogs?) , or flying up to high areas to get you (pagan monsters) so you can't just fly a ladder to get away.

In Thief, almost ANY enemy can kill you, so making them more physically challenging is just overkill. Garrett's most potent weapon in the game is stealth, and the scariest enemies would be those that have ways to negate that.

GmanPro
29th May 2009, 05:18
^^ Indeed. The idea is to make an enemy that is harder to sneak around/get away from, rather than harder to kill in a fight.

Hypevosa
29th May 2009, 05:25
:D I'm only disappointed that you took out my story. Other than that, thanks :D

(can't pass up being at the top of a page)

Scariest enemy I can think of in thief... Something that latches onto me and makes noise AND generates light... that would be scary.

Imagine, you're sitting in the shadows listening to 4 guards talking about all the nice treasure and where to find it, when you hear to your right *crick crick crick*.... You look to see what appears to be a large black lady bug with a bright yellow glowing ass (who's a male attempting to attract a female). It sees your hood and thinks it's a black lady bug who wants some loving. So it flies at you, attaching to the back of your head, glowing as bright as it can begging for that buggy love, cricking louder and louder. The guards look on and break out laughing and collapse on the floor as you run in circles trying to get it off. Eventually it tires, and flies away, the guards still incapacitated with laughter, you find another shadow, and make note to shoot every one of those damn bugs you see.

Just a fun scenario. But seriously, something that attaches to you for some reason and produces light and/or sound until you remove it (by entering water), until it leaves (after like 10 seconds), or if you go near a bright light source which it thinks is another bug, would be scary as hell. in the right situations. I don't need an enemy that 1 hit kills me, but an enemy that removes my ability to hide... well that would be awesome and sucky at the same time.

Maybe a monster that's a big glowing goo pile and if it notices you and throws goo at you/touches you you get the glowing goo on you and it makes it harder to hide from the more dangerous enemies (unless you wash it off somehow/ it dies down over time)

citywolfdreams
30th May 2009, 07:10
:D I'm only disappointed that you took out my story. Other than that, thanks :D

Imagine, you're sitting in the shadows listening to 4 guards talking about all the nice treasure and where to find it, when you hear to your right *crick crick crick*.... You look to see what appears to be a large black lady bug with a bright yellow glowing ass (who's a male attempting to attract a female). It sees your hood and thinks it's a black lady bug who wants some loving. So it flies at you, attaching to the back of your head, glowing as bright as it can begging for that buggy love, cricking louder and louder. The guards look on and break out laughing and collapse on the floor as you run in circles trying to get it off. Eventually it tires, and flies away, the guards still incapacitated with laughter, you find another shadow, and make note to shoot every one of those damn bugs you see.

Maybe a monster that's a big glowing goo pile and if it notices you and throws goo at you/touches you you get the glowing goo on you and it makes it harder to hide from the more dangerous enemies (unless you wash it off somehow/ it dies down over time)

This story? :)

I definitely think the new Thief game needs fireflies now. Maybe they're like some sort of hybrid between fireflies and mosquitoes - this might be an explanation of why they would follow you (as much as I laughed at the "they want to make love to your hood" story),

One thing I would like to point out though is that an enemy that reduces your stealth if it sees you is still only effective if it SEES you in the first place, and for players who can ghost the only enemies that can scare us are things that can bypass the usual tricks that ghost-style thieves use to take advantage of the AIs. The three biggest ghost moves (that almost ALWAYS work in the usual Thief games) are:

1) Hide until the alarm goes down and people stop looking.

2) Get to high ground (rafters, rooftops) as soon as possible. This gives you a good lay of the land and also makes it hard for opponents to pursue you.

3) Observe patrol patterns before every making any sort of move.

This is why I feel I can't emphazize enough the importance of making enemies to negate these tricks - because a game where 3 simple rules can get you past 99% of your obstacles has lost its challenge. We need guard dogs or other sniffer-type foes so to negate rule 1, flying opponents that search from above to negate rule 2, and opponents which change patterns every once in a while to negate rule 3. In a way, Thief players are kind of like Garrett - we love the thrill of overcoming incredible challenges through sheer finesse. If the design team wants players to get back the thrill of the original Thief, you have to take away the "comfort zone" where the entire mission is a cake walk - and that means creating enemies that can severely limit the 3 exploits listed above.

massimilianogoi
30th May 2009, 11:53
http://i41.tinypic.com/2sb38gl.jpg

In some pagan site.

Yaphy
30th May 2009, 16:39
http://i41.tinypic.com/2sb38gl.jpg

In some pagan site.

Thats a good pagan enemy. It looks like it can run really fast.

massimilianogoi
31st May 2009, 13:16
And it's very, VERY strong!! And it's near invulnerable too http://www.ttlg.com/forums/images/smilies/laff.gif

Herr_Garrett
31st May 2009, 13:56
And it's very, VERY strong!! And it's near invulnerable too

Grendel was invulnerable, save for Beowulf. A charm was laid on him, so that no weapon could harm him - that is precisely why Beowulf wrestled with him and finally tore out his arm. But only he had the strength to accomplish this.
The way I see it, Grendel in his original form would not really fit a real, Thief-y storyline.

But the simile with Grendel & co. vs. Heorot and Pagans vs. City/Hammers is a nice one.

DarthEnder
31st May 2009, 20:08
I'd like it if most of the supernatural creatures in Thief continued to lean towards the Arthurian.

MasterTaffer
2nd Jun 2009, 06:58
I know I already made a post about Fire Shadows, but DAMN:

http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs28/f/2008/071/5/c/Fire_Shadows_by_miakhano.jpg

Somebody hire this Miakano guy as a concept artist, STAT!

Herr_Garrett
2nd Jun 2009, 07:23
Kinda like a Balrog.
Well, yeah, okay, the whole "fire shadow" concept is pretty Balrogish :)

I don't care about who is the concept artist as long as he/she be an extraordinarily good one, because the best is the least that Thief deserves.

huzi73
2nd Jun 2009, 08:49
Kinda like a Balrog.
Well, yeah, okay, the whole "fire shadow" concept is pretty Balrogish :)

I don't care about who is the concept artist as long as he/she be an extraordinarily good one, because the best is the least that Thief deserves.

http://www.lytha.com/thief/images/lythaway/huge/bh_fireshadow.jpg[/QUOTE]

Until I saw this pic,I've been wondering wtf a fire shadow is/was.I simply thought this was a fire zombie.This guy was more human than he was zombie anyway!Kinda like a servant/civilian on fire:p.The only thing that differentiated him from normal humans,was...fire!He even had a face and a beard!:scratch:And he did change play dynamic,since he lit up the area he strolled through,meaning if he walked by you in the darkest of shadows,he'd probably see you....Kinda goofy,though I think turning him into a fully fledged fire shadow/balrog will make him loose his charm.I just loved the whole dude with a beard lost in a crypt cought on fire,now hes pissed feel to him:o

DarthEnder
2nd Jun 2009, 10:00
What about...giants?

Just like, a fortress of giants on top of a mountain. And they're like normal guards but their too tall to blackjack unless you can get above them somehow.

huzi73
2nd Jun 2009, 21:02
What about...giants?

Just like, a fortress of giants on top of a mountain. And they're like normal guards but their too tall to blackjack unless you can get above them somehow.

Except hed need a BIG blackjack.

BoldEnglishman
2nd Jun 2009, 21:33
There was some sort of two-headed ogre in early screenshots of "The Dark Project" (before the Thief title was added, I believe)...

Herr_Garrett
3rd Jun 2009, 06:21
There was some sort of two-headed ogre in early screenshots of "The Dark Project" (before the Thief title was added, I believe)...

Indeedyo. I'd like to see those.

massimilianogoi
3rd Jun 2009, 08:05
Kinda like a Balrog.
Well, yeah, okay, the whole "fire shadow" concept is pretty Balrogish :)

I don't care about who is the concept artist as long as he/she be an extraordinarily good one, because the best is the least that Thief deserves.

The Balrog of Lord Of The Rings really scared the s*** out of me :eek: What a great demon!!

huzi73
3rd Jun 2009, 13:37
I like the way you think. I've said this a million times myself - enemies in Thief are no longer scary once you've reached the level of skill where you can ghost through a level, it doesn't MATTER how badass the enemies are since they never even see you. A genuinely scary enemy in Thief wouldn't be something that's tough or hard to injure, it'd something that screws with your stealth and escape capabilities, whether by generating light (ladybugs?), smelling you even if you're completely hidden (guard dogs?) , or flying up to high areas to get you (pagan monsters) so you can't just fly a ladder to get away.

In Thief, almost ANY enemy can kill you, so making them more physically challenging is just overkill. Garrett's most potent weapon in the game is stealth, and the scariest enemies would be those that have ways to negate that.

This is why the most challenging enemy to sneak past was the fire shadow for me,because it made you light up as much,if not more than as if you were holding a fire arrow

SlyGarrett
3rd Jun 2009, 14:48
I would like to have:

1) Watchdogs, which serve as biological alarm systems and which can attack you
2) Some sort of invisible enemy or an enemy that hides in the dark, and you might only hear it, but not see it at first

Knight
6th Jun 2009, 20:37
A very big and strong thing in a good graphic game should be very scary^^

BoldEnglishman
6th Jun 2009, 20:56
There was some sort of two-headed ogre in early screenshots of "The Dark Project" (before the Thief title was added, I believe)...

Looking through some of the Dark Project's .crfs, though the model doesn't exist anymore, the skin of the "ogre" is still in the game's .crfs.

SlyGarrett
9th Jun 2009, 06:25
It would be nice if there was a Undead Centaur (half human, half horse), who would use a bow with fire/explosive arrows.
These creatures may live in the forest, where they guard ancient temples or graves.

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 06:43
The glyphs were destroyed, yes... but the training and the trauma still remain for the enforcers, I don't see it being too far out there to be randomly assaulted by one from the shadows, but their speed and strength would be far less since the glyphs that augmented them would have been undone (like with Gamall).

Platinumoxicity
9th Jun 2009, 10:28
The biggest mistake in the enemy design in TDS:

If you design creatures made of stone for the last levels, who have unique lines, unique everything, skin hard as rock, don't make them 1-hit destroyable! It was an unbelievable dissapointment. Why did they have to make immortal stone warriors so destroyable and so weak? They changed from "worse than haunts" enemies to "made of sugar" pansies.

Huge walking stone statues should be indestructable and deadly. :mad2:

massimilianogoi
9th Jun 2009, 11:53
The biggest mistake in the enemy design in TDS:

If you design creatures made of stone for the last levels, who have unique lines, unique everything, skin hard as rock, don't make them 1-hit destroyable! It was an unbelievable dissapointment. Why did they have to make immortal stone warriors so destroyable and so weak? They changed from "worse than haunts" enemies to "made of sugar" pansies.

Huge walking stone statues should be indestructable and deadly. :mad2:

Just the Garrett's blackjack, in the physics weapon, could destroy them, no other hammer, sword or axe could damage them. Only the magic can destroy them too. So it seems correct for me. Garrett must be dowered of some magic power, I guess.

Platinumoxicity
9th Jun 2009, 12:02
Just the Garrett's blackjack, in the physics weapon, could destroy them, no other hammer, sword or axe could damage them. Only the magic can destroy them too. So it seems correct for me. Garrett must be dowered of some magic power, I guess.

That's just it. Garrett shouldn't have been able to destroy them, but then the designers decided that Garrett has to get a magic power that destroys the statues. Remember the brass kid in TMA? That's probably the only indestructable enemy in the series. I think we need more of enemies that are simply invulnerable by Garrett's weak and powerless human weaponry. That would mean that the player would have to avoid them, trick them, and escape them. Not every opponent in the game should have the possibility of disabling it.

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 12:34
That's just it. Garrett shouldn't have been able to destroy them, but then the designers decided that Garrett has to get a magic power that destroys the statues. Remember the brass kid in TMA? That's probably the only indestructable enemy in the series. I think we need more of enemies that are simply invulnerable by Garrett's weak and powerless human weaponry. That would mean that the player would have to avoid them, trick them, and escape them. Not every opponent in the game should have the possibility of disabling it.

See now you're forcing the ghost style on people... It's been said but it bears saying again, if they wanted us to ghost through all the levels it would fail us on being seen. However, it really was a BS move in my opinion to introduce the uber blackjack for disabling the stone statues... it was really out there. The problem was that the stone statues were everywhere, so giving the players no means of disabling them didn't seem fair.

I think for T4 they should make one or two undisablable enemies, but that they shouldn't be in high concentrations like the stone statues were. More like the guys with the heavy helmets from TMA... a rare sprinkling, but noticeable. But I also feel that you should reward the well prepared thief by allowing them to be gasable, or something-able.

Platinumoxicity
9th Jun 2009, 15:09
See now you're forcing the ghost style on people... It's been said but it bears saying again, if they wanted us to ghost through all the levels it would fail us on being seen. However, it really was a BS move in my opinion to introduce the uber blackjack for disabling the stone statues... it was really out there. The problem was that the stone statues were everywhere, so giving the players no means of disabling them didn't seem fair.

I think for T4 they should make one or two undisablable enemies, but that they shouldn't be in high concentrations like the stone statues were. More like the guys with the heavy helmets from TMA... a rare sprinkling, but noticeable. But I also feel that you should reward the well prepared thief by allowing them to be gasable, or something-able.

I didn't say anything about ghosting. You could well let them see you, but you'd have to escape them instead of taking out your weapon or gas arrow and whoops! Problem solved. There hasn't been a single moment in any of the games where you'd simply have to run away, you always had some way of defending yourself or disable the enemy. I think there could be at least one level where the enemy is too much for Garrett. I'm not forcing ghost style on anyone. In fact when I used to play "mr. sandman" style, "Casing the joint" was the only level I hated in T2. My idea was just that there should be challenging moments where you can't just remove the problem by taking it out.

And I was just saying that the statues in TDS would have been a great "final level enemy", just like the beasts in T1 or iron spiders in T2 if they'd been completely indestructable, it would have been a nice challenge for the endgame.

Just like some parts in the game are impossible to ghost, therefore not all loot is available for ghosters, some parts of the game might have a moment where you simply can't knock the enemy out. See, you're forcing the mr. sandman style on everyone.

ToMegaTherion
9th Jun 2009, 16:58
I would have no objections to indestructable enemies, although if all the enemies in a level were indestructable that might be going too far.

BoldEnglishman
9th Jun 2009, 17:33
The Trickster was invulnerable (as well as having 9999 hit points), and he could also kill you basically just by looking at you.

I understand what your saying, and I tend to agree. The original two games are very forgiving if you mess up, and most problems can be solved by our little friend the flashbomb.

Zahr Dalsk
9th Jun 2009, 18:17
The Puppets in the Cradle should have been invincible. It would have been terrifying if you had no way of killing them, and had to sit there, panicking as you pick a lock, you hear one of them coming, and the lock isn't opening fast enough.

Instead, LOLFLASHBOMB.

DarthEnder
9th Jun 2009, 18:27
I want to know what game people were playing where you had 20 flashbombs on you to take care of every little problem you ran into. I never had more than like 3 at once in the first 2 games.
The problem was that the stone statues were everywhere, so giving the players no means of disabling them didn't seem fair.Exactly. The difference between the Gargoyles and the Mechacherubs is that there were only two Mechacherubs in the whole game. And both of those levels had invisibility potions available to use to get past them.

But the Gargoyles were EVERYWHERE at the end levels of TDS. And making them immune to everything would have turned every level into Casing the Joint. Made every enemy into a Constantine. And that's just a BS move.

Platinumoxicity
9th Jun 2009, 18:37
I want to know what game people were playing where you had 20 flashbombs on you to take care of every little problem you ran into. I never had more than like 3 at once in the first 2 games.Exactly. The difference between the Gargoyles and the Mechacherubs is that there were only two Mechacherubs in the whole game. And both of those levels had invisibility potions available to use to get past them.

But the Gargoyles were EVERYWHERE at the end levels of TDS. And making them immune to everything would have turned every level into Casing the Joint. Made every enemy into a Constantine. And that's just a BS move.

I didn't have a problem with sneaking by every single opponent in TDS :confused:

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 18:56
Yeah, un-disablable enemies are fine, just they can't be the only enemy in a level, nor should they be in high concentrations. This way you enforce little sections where you need to rely just on your sneaking ability, but don't force someone to ghost for the majority or all of a level.

MasterTaffer
9th Jun 2009, 19:05
Did DarthEnder not realize that they aren't immune to explosives? And that there is a glyph in Gamall's Lair that turns your blackjack into a "Statue Smoter?"

And he could just SNEAK around them?

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 19:13
I think darthender is just a more hardcore defender of not making the player a complete pansy who has to always hide in the shadows than I am. I'd be heartbroken if they made expert difficulty where I couldn't blackjack people... I really would. I might not buy the game even if they did that thinkin about it... I'd feel like my style of play was being discriminated against for no reason.

Herr_Garrett
9th Jun 2009, 19:15
I want to know what game people were playing where you had 20 flashbombs on you to take care of every little problem you ran into. I never had more than like 3 at once in the first 2 games.Exactly. The difference between the Gargoyles and the Mechacherubs is that there were only two Mechacherubs in the whole game. And both of those levels had invisibility potions available to use to get past them.

But the Gargoyles were EVERYWHERE at the end levels of TDS. And making them immune to everything would have turned every level into Casing the Joint. Made every enemy into a Constantine. And that's just a BS move.

You can sneak through DS in one go even if you're a one-year-old toddler.

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 19:18
You can sneak through DS in one go even if you're a one-year-old toddler.

unnecessary comment that's only good for inciting inflamatory remarks... Really people, we could all just treat eachother a little more civily

BoldEnglishman
9th Jun 2009, 21:48
Tell me about it, some of the threads here feel like I've stepped into a street and there are gangs of Hammerites and Mechanists taunting each other - they both believe in the same thing (and worship the same thing), but when different views manifest, heads start rolling.

@DarthEnder: 3 flashbombs are all you need son! From playing the original missions, I believe the most flashbombs I had at any one time was about 7 - from buying all the ones in the shop at the beginning and then finding quite a few during the level itself. I'm not suggesting that I had heaps of flashbombs with me and used them on everything and anything that I could... merely that even one flashbomb could be used as a "get out of jail free card". When all else failed, and the player was caught in a compromised situation at any time, the sure fire way of either disposing of the enemy entirely or seeking shelther without harm was using a flashbomb.

EDIT: (EDIT2 after not actually making the edit before submitting) I think the main thing with the flashbomb are the ways in which it can be used, not their quantity. I agree with your post over in the Flashbomb thread, where the ways in which you can blackjack guards when they are blinded should be changed. Mainly the fact that you can blind fully aware targets, and then knock 'em out from the front is why the flashbomb is so overpowered.

DarthEnder
9th Jun 2009, 22:10
Did DarthEnder not realize that they aren't immune to explosives?I...did not actually. I'm sure I tried fire arrows and mines on them and nothing happened.


And that there is a glyph in Gamall's Lair that turns your blackjack into a "Statue Smoter?"The argument that was being made by others was that the "Statue Smoter" should never have been introduced into the game.

I'm just saying that having enemies that can't be disabled is a game mechanic that makes playing the game on Normal completely bull**** for the types of people who play the game on Normal. And regardless if you guys like it, the people who never play the game on any difficulty higher Normal are the vast majority of people who actually buy the game.

I'm all for having all the crazy hard modes with the extra hard limitations. But stop trying to add universal gameplay mechanics that suck all the fun out of the Normal mode for regular players.

Platinumoxicity
9th Jun 2009, 22:48
I...did not actually. I'm sure I tried fire arrows and mines on them and nothing happened.

The argument that was being made by others was that the "Statue Smoter" should never have been introduced into the game.

I'm just saying that having enemies that can't be disabled is a game mechanic that makes playing the game on Normal completely bull**** for the types of people who play the game on Normal. And regardless if you guys like it, the people who never play the game on any difficulty higher Normal are the vast majority of people who actually buy the game.

I'm all for having all the crazy hard modes with the extra hard limitations. But stop trying to add universal gameplay mechanics that suck all the fun out of the Normal mode for regular players.

Extra hard? No it's not. It only removes the ease of simply going out of your way to knocking out every breathing thing in the mission and then exploring the mission and completing the objectives. It makes situations more unpredictable and adds tension, when you know that you haven't gotten rid of every single guard. You really have to listen, observe and plan your escape in case you are detected. Which do you think is more exciting gameplay, the one where you stroll around the level looking for the next objective when all your opponents are sleeping on the floor, or the one where you are running away with 1 hp from a mad herd of haunts? Once in a while there should be a mission where you can't just go around whacking everyone in the back of the skull. If you believe that's the most fun that Thief can offer, you're doing it wrong.

Have you ever been in a situation where there's a guard who you don't need to knock out because he's not exactly in your way, but you still choose to go after him just to knock him out? I that really what the game is about?

DarthEnder
9th Jun 2009, 23:19
Have you ever been in a situation where there's a guard who you don't need to knock out because he's not exactly in your way, but you still choose to go after him just to knock him out? I that really what the game is about?According to this http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=89632 apparently 38% of the people here think is is.

Stop trying to turn Normal difficulty into Expert. And stop trying to turn Expert into Ghost. If you wanna play ghost, go play goddman ghost and stop trying to make the game into something 90% of the gaming population isn't going to want to play.

Your argument is completely retarded on this subject. Your game style exists. Their game style exists. Thief is made so that everyone plays how they want. You want to take that away from all the other players. YOU'RE the one doing it wrong.

MasterTaffer
9th Jun 2009, 23:23
You know, he can be civil in his arguements. Is it so hard for you to debate something without calling the other person or his views "retarded?"

DarthEnder
9th Jun 2009, 23:32
I don't consider being told that I'm playing Thief wrong because I'm not playing it twice as difficult as the games most difficult setting being civil. That's passive aggression, not civility.

MasterTaffer
10th Jun 2009, 00:23
He started it!*

*summarized for brevity.

Then be passive aggressive in return, instead of calling his point "retarded" and being outright aggressive.

DarthEnder
10th Jun 2009, 00:43
I don't think passive aggression is an improvement over political incorrectness. It strikes me as rather cowardly.

Herr_Garrett
10th Jun 2009, 05:54
@ all:

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

:mad2:

ToMegaTherion
10th Jun 2009, 08:51
I think it is good practice for designers to occasionally force gamers out of their comfort zones and make them play a game in a different way for a while, mainly because the Most People that DarthEnder is talking about probably won't consider adopting a different style of play themselves. Who knows how many people blackjacked or killed everyone in sight, but would have actually enjoyed playing a different way that just never occurred to them to try?

Platinumoxicity
10th Jun 2009, 09:29
All games are supposed to get a little harder as they get nearer to the finale. You can't play through every game using the exact same strategy. If every mission had to 100% support every playstyle, we'd have more shadows and soft floors for ultra-ghosters, rapid-fire-gas-arrow-bow-upgrades for Mr.Sandman-speedrunners, and even lockable cell blocks for those who like to trap all the opponents alive into the same room. The missions need to have variety or they get boring and repetitive. In T2, "Trace the Courier" was a nice challenge when I played it on normal back then, and it was just as hard as it was on expert. You can't always play "how you want". Sometimes you have to play "how you can".

Missions in Thief go like this: Normal, Harder, Normal, Easier, Normal but Long, Hard, Very Hard, Hard, Long and Hard.

Every thief game had it's own "challenge" missions. In T1, "Undercover" where you needed to not get caught in forbidden areas, T2 had "Casing the Joint" where you needed to map the building without leaving evidence, and TDS, well... I suppose "Robbing the Cradle" where you needed to sneak by the staff in the past because you couldn't kill them.

BoldEnglishman
10th Jun 2009, 10:15
The challenge of Undercover was not really a challenge. It wasn't an objective as such. In Casing the Joints, you failed the mission for initiating any violence. In Undercover, if you are discovered, the level doesn't end - the Hammers are alerted to your presence is the only consequence.

DarthEnder
10th Jun 2009, 16:53
I think it would be fantastic if the way to beat a major threat was to not fight it at all, but to maximize stealth. If you don't think that sounds like a good idea, then I have to ask how you felt about doing that with Constantine? That was forced ghosting, but I love how Garrett's end-games involve never laying a hand on the villain, but as with the first two, he lets them kill themselves by their own devices. I love how poetic it is (more like a story cliché from a movie or novel than an action game), how it emphasizes brains and patience and stealth over loud and sustained and frenetic brute force, and how it's another break from the overused "boss fights". Garrett's strengths (not the player's preferences, which often break from the games' rules) beat the bad guy. It just makes perfect sense.The difference is that Constantine and Gamall are bosses. The Gargoyles are a prevalent enemy for like a third of the game.

Requiring you to ghost a boss because he's too badass is awesome. Requiring you to ghost 3-4 levels in a row is crap.

ToMegaTherion
10th Jun 2009, 17:48
A third of the game is a bit of an exaggeration.

kaekaelyn
10th Jun 2009, 19:11
Technically, you can also run away from them until you lose them, which isn't "ghosting." The game's not over once they see you. I think moss arrows also temporarily disabled them? Not totally sure. I didn't mind the gargoyles, probably because TDS was a little on the easy side and it was a welcome challenge to not be able to deal with those particular enemies easily.

Platinumoxicity
10th Jun 2009, 19:28
The difference is that Constantine and Gamall are bosses. The Gargoyles are a prevalent enemy for like a third of the game.

Requiring you to ghost a boss because he's too badass is awesome. Requiring you to ghost 3-4 levels in a row is crap.

You still don't understand. "No damage dealt" means that you don't hurt the enemies but they can still see you. "Ghosting" means that you don't hurt your enemies, and detection means failure. You're the one who brough up ghosting, I didn't say anything about it.

You can still use flashbombs to escape your enemies if you are absolutely unable to stay hidden. There could be at least 1 mission that is more challenging and forces the player to think a little differently. Sometimes you just have to change the way you play.

kabatta
10th Jun 2009, 20:11
I have an idea for a scary enemy: a sober Benny. With a huge hangover and ticked off he'll make you scream like a little gnome.
(i haven't real all the pages. i do bad gnome jokes too; yes, i'm a racist)

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 20:50
There could be at least 1 mission that is more challenging and forces the player to think a little differently. Sometimes you just have to change the way you play.

By that logic there should be one mission where garrett is required to knock every single person in the level out in order to succeed. Let's say there's no way to turn an alarm off except from the inside, so everyone around needs to be knocked out before you can go inside, and it's an objective.

If there's a level that forces me (a mister sandman player) to ghost, then I want a mission that forces a ghost to play mister sandman.

ToMegaTherion
10th Jun 2009, 21:47
I would say that there is a difference between the two situations, in the sense that I'd assume everyone who ghosts has at some point played Thief in the normal way, which generally involves lots of blackjacks, but non-ghosters might not even think of ghosting, so it's good for the designers to open their eyes to different ways of playing to see which way they'd like best.

For example, I'd played Dark Project quite a lot but never considered the Kill/KO limit implemented in the non-expert difficulty of Framed until I'd played that mission. I really enjoyed that particular type of objective, so I appreciate being given the opportunity to see it in action (I'd actually rather like to try to play other levels of Metal Age or Deadly Shadows with such restrictions, but I'm never sure what body count is reasonable for each level).

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 21:51
I still think a mission where you had to somehow take everyone out (blackjacking, not killing) first would still be an awesome mission.

:D

MasterTaffer
10th Jun 2009, 21:53
That's evil, forcing me to ruin my pretty list of zeros on my stats screen. Eeeevil.

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 21:55
Well so is forcing me to lower my KO stat :(

In T3 it isn't such a big deal to me anymore since there are respawning guards though... I still knockout every creature in levels though (rats and cats too :D)

kaekaelyn
10th Jun 2009, 21:57
I don't like ghosting. It's just not as hilarious to me as regular play. I don't want to be forced to ghost as in I'll get a big fat "GAME OVER" if I get caught once unless it's a very special, very particular circumstance, like in the beginning of Assassins--however, I wouldn't mind simply not being able or allowed to disable/kill a certain enemy for whatever reason, but if I get caught I can still make a run for it. Does that make sense?

MasterTaffer
10th Jun 2009, 21:58
Well so is forcing me to lower my KO stat :(

I was doing no such thing, good sir! That's a false accusation!

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 22:00
I'd have at least 20 more knockouts in TMA if it wasn't for that casing the joint level :(

And that does make sense kaeklyn. Maybe though they'd have to close the distance and see you though to fail instead, because they could actually get a look at your face. You're just a generic black blob until they get close enough to see what's under your hood.

ToMegaTherion
10th Jun 2009, 22:01
They should make a level stocked entirely with 1hp guards and mechanist submariners, just to drive Hype mad.

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 22:02
They should make a level stocked entirely with 1hp guards and mechanist submariners, just to drive Hype mad.

I think I'd actually punch a hole in my computer if that happened... I think I really would O.O *twitch*

Platinumoxicity
10th Jun 2009, 23:06
I still think a mission where you had to somehow take everyone out (blackjacking, not killing) first would still be an awesome mission.

:D

Mansion full of angry guards that try to kill you if they see you + sneaking + stealing + occasional knock-out so that people don't get too suspicious = Thiefy thieving with excitement

Mansion full of angry guards that try to kill you if they see you + blackjack + gas arrows + knock out everyone + explore level afterwards + stealing = Shopping in an empty mall

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 23:19
tsk tsk, you're just looking at the results and not how you get them. Knocking every person out is a fun and exciting venture in and of itself so long as you aren't armed with 50 gas arrows, but they never allowed us to have that many.

MasterTaffer
10th Jun 2009, 23:26
I think I'd actually punch a hole in my computer if that happened... I think I really would O.O *twitch*

*Typing up the design document for a fan mission like that.*

Platinumoxicity
11th Jun 2009, 08:46
tsk tsk, you're just looking at the results and not how you get them. Knocking every person out is a fun and exciting venture in and of itself so long as you aren't armed with 50 gas arrows, but they never allowed us to have that many.

But I can almost see it. Every guard sleeping on the floor, Garrett walks around the mansion with a shopping cart, whistling and browsing for valuables. Without the cart, that's pretty much how it is.

...Unless of course you're paranoid and even after you've knocked everyone out, you still think there's someone out there. :nut:

ToMegaTherion
11th Jun 2009, 08:55
And of course we'd remove the level skip cheat from the mission so that Hype has to have the TRUE THIEF EXPERIENCE.

Hypevosa
11th Jun 2009, 09:34
And of course we'd remove the level skip cheat from the mission so that Hype has to have the TRUE THIEF EXPERIENCE.

I already had that experience in casing the joint, and I didn't have FUN. I am a challenge whore in some aspects just as almost all of you are, but I also want to have fun. Casing the joint was not the most fun level for me. Life of the party was, where I got 58 knockouts in one level, and got to see Lady VanVernon's guards and Lord Wiley's guards duke it out, and met a pet spider that didn't attack me, and got to use a sunburst device to open an armory door. THAT was a fun level.

ToMegaTherion
11th Jun 2009, 10:17
I find ghosting incredibly tiresome as well. Playing with no blackjacking is OK, especially in Deadly Shadows, but most missions are pretty boring for me to ghost.

kabatta
11th Jun 2009, 11:26
That is where the funny dialogues come in.

Rostere
11th Jun 2009, 22:24
Every thief game has introduced a new scary thing never seen before. Thief 1 had zombies that were very hard to kill, and just when you got the hang of it, they threw some laughing super-fast skeletal warriors your way. Thief 2 introduced the Builder's Children, who were scary just because of their brutal firepower, and the Treebeasts that were as deadly, but faster than anything. TDS introduced us to the Puppet, the reanimated corpse of an institutionalized madman who's body caused electric interference around it.

Now, what hideous monster would be in Thief 4 then? Throw some nice ideas around!

I thought of this: There's always some nice ambient audio in the Thief games right? So when this monster comes near, the birds and the crickets stop singing, then you know there is something wrong. Also, these monsters should be pretty quiet at all times, so they can startle you if you aren't careful enough.

Another simple idea: Apparitions would only cast a shadow but their body could not be seen.

Also... Burricks? :D

Those are some great ideas. Another idea would be (undead?) enemies who only move in the shadows to avoid being seen, just like yourself. Combine that with a rather dark map/level like for example the Halls of Echoing Repose and you get epic win.

citywolfdreams
12th Jun 2009, 02:48
I'm a ghost player myself, but I don't think people should HAVE to ghost. The beauty of thief is that it accomodates different styles of play, and that you can outthink your opponent in a variety of ways, from the subtle to the very dramatic.

DarthEnder
12th Jun 2009, 04:53
Constantine and Gamall are bosses, but you don't/can't fight them as a way to complete the game, so it's not a traditional boss-fight. And I don't think badassery should be the reason to ghost the villain, but because alerting him/her would mean Garrett's and/or The City's undoing--FAIL!What are you just making up **** to argue about now? "Yeah, having to ghost bosses is cool. But not for the reasons you said. It's cool for some totally different reason."

fayfuya
13th Jun 2009, 09:00
i like the Pagan Beasts that walked in the tunnels at the Pagan Sanctuary at TDS, i want them again, they fierce, or some new religion of dark knights, they are strong, black and they maybe sometimes attack the city.
i'm not sure about those dark knights....just an idea.
But what about a new tribe, Orcs! Strong and brutal Orcs with big weapons, they shouldn't be very smart, but not stupid. i think that their background story should be that they conquered a small part of the city, and we can visit that part, as a part of the free-roam city and it's filled with Orcs,.
if you want to, you can also add tot hem a big part of the Thief 4 story, that they wishes to conquer the whole city

Platinumoxicity
13th Jun 2009, 09:15
i like the Pagan Beasts that walked in the tunnels at the Pagan Sanctuary at TDS, i want them again, they fierce, or some new religion of dark knights, they are strong, black and they maybe sometimes attack the city.
i'm not sure about those dark knights....just an idea.
But what about a new tribe, Orcs! Strong and brutal Orcs with big weapons, they shouldn't be very smart, but not stupid. i think that their background story should be that they conquered a small part of the city, and we can visit that part, as a part of the free-roam city and it's filled with Orcs,.
if you want to, you can also add tot hem a big part of the Thief 4 story, that they wishes to conquer the whole city

No. No. No. Thief has more imagination than the game devs who put orcs or orks or uruks or orchs or ourachs to every game. C'mon, orcs are absolutely everywhere. We don't need a single game anymore that has them. Yes, yes, some dude came up with a smelly greenish brute in 1937... Get over it! make up something new! Like... I dunno... Like a human that has crab-pincers instead of hands... That's it! Something new! There are so many unique things in the Thief world that you can't find in any other fiction that we really don't need the most over-used unimaginative things that plague the fantasy-game industry. These things include:
-Orcs, bugbears
-Trolls and Giants
-Goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds
-Dragons, hippogriffs, chimeras

kabatta
13th Jun 2009, 09:54
What?




Anyway, you should explain these "different reasons", not force people to assume what you mean. There's Ghosting as a fan sport and then there's not getting caught or noticed by my actions for the simple and important reason to not get caught or noticed. Guess which one I care about--just not getting caught or noticed by doing something to gain attention. You know, just like with Constantine himself--that one scenario at the end.

Constantine is too busy tending to his ritual to notice you. I allways dash in, replace the eye, then go up in the shadow and watch the show.

BoldEnglishman
13th Jun 2009, 12:38
How does Constantine actually attack you? I haven't actually tried being attacked by him for a long time, but if I recall, he doesn't actually attack you in the usual sense - part of the environment glows blue and you just start losing health :scratch:

Platinumoxicity
13th Jun 2009, 12:42
How does Constantine actually attack you? I haven't actually tried being attacked by him for a long time, but if I recall, he doesn't actually attack you in the usual sense - part of the environment glows blue and you just start losing health :scratch:

I think he can also throw insect swarms at you. :scratch:

ToMegaTherion
13th Jun 2009, 14:05
I believe he has access to the Tiltowait spell, which causes sunburst device style explosions. I seem to recall dropping him in a room full of guards and changing his faction, and lots of fire resulted.

simlan
13th Jun 2009, 15:16
for freaky kind of missions one or two would be good without turning it all into "horror survival" because as the thief universe goes garrett has been forced to go to places where he'd rather not be

and ill also add that the fear of being caught is one thing that will make people go stealthy for fear of being caught which isnt always done with normal guards

AdrianP
14th Jun 2009, 17:11
I never liked beasts and monsters in Thief. Human based opponents are always the best, and a guaranty of success.
The game has an unique feel and for me it is always ruined when a zombie or some other beast pops in front of me.

The opponents should blend in better with the game mood, and fascinate the player, and not disgust him in any way.
So, my suggestions are:
- instead of and monster, how about something so beautiful that will draw Garret out of the shadow against his will. This could be a female character, that once you see her, you become powerless, and go towards her. She sees you and prepares do do something to injure you, like draw a dagger from her dress and cut you as soon as you get near her. This gets you out of her spell and with your health significantly diminished you have to get away form the open, as she screams for help.
- another thing with the previous female character would be that when she is suspicious of somebody being there she would call him whispering in the dark, (as Thief was always about sound, this could be exploited).
I hope this was somewhat original and will add more uniqueness to the fascinating universe of Thief

citywolfdreams
16th Jun 2009, 06:09
I never liked beasts and monsters in Thief. Human based opponents are always the best, and a guaranty of success.
The game has an unique feel and for me it is always ruined when a zombie or some other beast pops in front of me.


I agree with you, but only in part. I love having the occasional mission of undead, or one with lots of pagan beasties. But these things are only cool because they're RARE. The majority of enemies you encounter should be human (or things encountered with humans, such as guard dogs, pet burricks, etc) and that makes the non-human stuff cooler.

citywolfdreams
16th Jun 2009, 06:22
One thing I also love about the thief universe is that when they do a traditional fantasy creature, they always make it darker and frightening. For example, Victoria is a dryad - a wood-nymph that is not typically depicted as menacing in normal fantasy. But they turned her into a terrifying and cunning opponent who actually rips Garrett's eye out - and could probably have killed him the next time they met as well, if she hadn't wanted to form an alliance.

I think undead would make a cool central enemy, but they should definitely stick away from the traditional stereotypes. For example, vampires that look human and suck blood. Boring! Vampires that are leathery half-bat horrors roosting upside-down in haunted cathedrals? Awesome.

I am hoping that they make the Necromancer the central enemy, as he has come up in two Thief games, and from what we have seen has quite a few potential plot threads. Why did he leave the Hand Brotherhood to study Necromancy? Why take up residence in the City? What are his long-term plans? Obviously, they could make it something lame, like "he's a power-hungry villain" but I hope that the designers know better than to make an enemy as two-dimensional as that.

On a related note, one enemy that I thought would be really cool - not in a gameplay-affecting type of way, but more in an emotionally gripping type of way - would be a guard whom you killed in a previous mission, except resurrected as an undead. He walks around constantly muttering about the shadowy figure that killed him, and how cold and hungry he is all the time. If he spots you, he chases you in a frenzy, screaming at you the whole time about how you took him away from his wife and family.

The trouble with that idea (yes, I critique even my OWN ideas :-) is that Garrett should be able to go through the entire game without killing anyone, to make ghost players happy. But if we use the girl at the end of Deadly Shadows as an NPC apprentice for one mission, it would be possible that SHE is the one who killed the guard, and thus Garrett is responsible, even if he didn't launch the arrow himself. I know, I know, I'll take a lot of flack from this from the girl-haters... my point is just that it would be really neat to have an enemy killed in one mission come back from the dead and carry a personal grudge.

IDNeon
16th Jun 2009, 06:37
The Necromancers should be the next enemy, it fits with the second game which hinted to such a brotherhood of Necromancers.

DarthEnder
16th Jun 2009, 08:53
I want the primary enemies in T4 to be one of two things. Either Necromancers. Or the Baron, who finally returns from fighting the wars. And his minions are made up of elite knight guards and mechanical beasts he builds using his wealth to employ former Mechanists.


One thing I also love about the thief universe is that when they do a traditional fantasy creature, they always make it darker and frightening. For example, Victoria is a dryad - a wood-nymph that is not typically depicted as menacing in normal fantasy. But they turned her into a terrifying and cunning opponent who actually rips Garrett's eye out - and could probably have killed him the next time they met as well, if she hadn't wanted to form an alliance.I agree, the Thief series is great at taking a normal monster trope and Pan's Labyrinthing the **** out of it.

Herr_Garrett
16th Jun 2009, 09:34
Or the Baron, who finally returns from fighting the wars. And his minions are made up of elite knight guards and mechanical beasts he builds using his wealth to employ former Mechanists.



I think the scariest enemy for some people here (including me, maybe) would be a DarthEnderBeast, which spawns mechanical beasts and throws cliché-fantasy stuff at you.

Platinumoxicity
16th Jun 2009, 09:42
Yep, we need something new and very original.

Gillie
3rd Jul 2009, 14:45
It would be good to see new original opponent's.
I know many do not want reference's to fan missions. There a some truly amazing one though, which are original I for one would love to see many of these in the new game.
Many are just awesome and amazing. They deserve praise for developing them. :thumb:

TheEye
4th Jul 2009, 09:34
this statue thing you said sounds good but I've got a few ideas as well. what if:
1) spiders were to make a comeback- they are fast, agile and freaking scary. they could also make them poisonous or have multiple attacks like the red spiders in TDP

2)the pagans have tonnes of weird creatures (rat, tree, ape, bug-people) but what they should introduce is something more classical... like a werewolf? they could make it fast, strong, tough and able to sniff you out, always on high alert (like haunts) - this would be a good change as most enemies are as scary as a bag of chips

3) maybe some new form of apparition is in order. imagine this: you are walking alone and you see a mirror or some pool of water and your reflection. however, after 2 secs, your reflection starts to fade and you see a dark figure coming out of the water/mirror ( like the shades in the cradle or something of the sort) and starts violently hitting you and shrieking

4) last but not least, the fireshadow could make a comeback as well - dangerous, tough, burning, immortal( it always re-appeared).

Gillie
20th Jul 2009, 22:34
I was thinking about The Keeper enforcers they were to me very creepy with their powers of hearing and their unseen faces, I for one would love to see them again though, and their powers
The statues as well maybe wrong thread, are very scary coming to life. :eek:
Tree beasts and creepy forests with the ape beasts and gas plants.

KittyCatAngel
21st Jul 2009, 09:14
I liked the look of the Enforcers, but I didn't like their voices at all. I think a more menacing, incoherent whispering would have been far more frightening. And not like the undead whispering, but a more human whisper.

I miss bugbeasts. I know they were utterly grumpy, but there's just something so endearing about their "ahs" and "oohs". And those balls of flies they shot at you D: Oh my!

Just thinking back, the sounds were done REALLY well in the Thief games. They really brought the creatures/guards to life.

So personally, I vote for more creepy crawlies. And YAY to spiders, as jtr7 says :D

BG_HHaunt
22nd Jul 2009, 21:06
Hmm,first I want crayman and burricks (especially those) back.
For new AIs maybe GargoyleBeasts,WolfBeasts and better undead (in thief 3 the undead look stupid and are not scary except for the asylum pupets).

esme
23rd Jul 2009, 10:49
the keeper assassins would have been better if they had been stealthier, say as well as becoming transparent/invisible when alerted they fade to transparent when standing still, so a patrol than ends in a shadowed area for a keeper assassin leaves a transparent keeper assassin standing in darkness which is a lot harder to spot than what TDS gave us

but I guess the "lets see how fast I can tear through this players" would have complained

--EDIT--

being a doofus I put "keepers" instead of "keeper assassins" <insert facepalm smiley here>

Platinumoxicity
23rd Jul 2009, 15:29
the keepers would have been better if they had been stealthier, say as well as becoming transparent/invisible when alerted they fade to transparent when standing still, so a patrol than ends in a shadowed area for a keeper leaves a transparent keeper standing in darkness which is a lot harder to spot than what TDS gave us

but I guess the "lets see how fast I can tear through this players" would have complained

The keepers that were in their own areas inside the library and compound wouldn't be trying to be invisible. I don't think they'd care if they're seen. You aren't always trying to stay hidden alone in your home either. ;) And I still don't believe that the keepers have a real invisibility power, more like a "blending in"-skill. They can move in the public without getting noticed by the genereal populous, but other keepers can detect them from the crowd easily.

P.S "The keepers did turn invisible in TDS" -On my game they turned slightly translucent white and became more visible than normally. :lol:

esme
23rd Jul 2009, 17:03
wups, I meant the keeper assassins

sorry :o

fayfuya
12th Aug 2009, 23:33
It's best to be without creatures, ghosts zombies or monsters, you guys are right, humans are the best

Secondary
13th Aug 2009, 00:15
The primary antagonist in TDS was a person who rampantly abused glyphs, perhaps a good idea for new enemies would be people who also do this (albeit, on a much smaller scale). Garrett, as the "one-true-keeper" or whatever, would be responsible for reigning in these violators and restoring balance to the use of glyphs (balance, aka, nobody but Garrett uses them)

Vae
13th Aug 2009, 02:43
Thief Modern would allow such a passage of time.

Don't even mention such things...:mad:

Vae
13th Aug 2009, 02:53
:lol:

esme
13th Aug 2009, 11:17
...I've been noticing that when people talk about the AIs, they only mention the guards. No other AIs are mentioned very much at all, even though they are all a threat, are on patrol routes or in one spot, and actually use the same methods for searching and attacking, with different appearances for doing so. Only the unarmed AIs don't fight, but they holler and run to the nearest guards, and even the fire elementals and frogbeasts follow the same or similar cues without fleeing.just to clarify if I say AI I mean any generic NPC if I mean guard or burrick or civilian or crayman or treebeast or elemental I will say so specifically

tinetone
7th Aug 2011, 21:52
Maybe we dont need "special" new enemies but upgrade of exisitng ones. Guards wearing helmets - imune to blackjack (like in T2), sewer workers with gas masks, metlarugy workers with dark glasses...

tsaweeos
21st Aug 2011, 19:57
If Eidos can come up with something creepier than the Puppets, I applaud them.
Those things were the scariest enemies I've ever seen in a video game. Topping that won't be easy.

As for a new (scary in voice, friendly in appearance) NPC, something that messes with you physiologically would be interesting.
A friend yet foe scenario where they might help you but mid way decide to try and eat you or something.
Not sure how that would work out in-game though. :S
Maybe a short section in the storyline where they give you directions through a cavern but at the same time have traps already set up that only your skills as a thief could bypass.

Platinumoxicity
21st Aug 2011, 21:21
If Eidos can come up with something creepier than the Puppets, I applaud them.
Those things were the scariest enemies I've ever seen in a video game. Topping that won't be easy.

Something like the phantoms or ninjas in FEAR. Enemies that make no noise, run very fast, are almost invisible, attempt to attack you from behind, run away and hide as soon as you notice them, and then they wait in hiding, ready to ambush you. They won't follow you into a dead end, but instead wait outside for you to get out in the open where they can approach you from a safe angle.

The ninjas in FEAR could also jump into high places, and hang on walls ready to jump on you.

Basically a scarier opponent than the Puppets would be something that acts pretty much the same way as the Xenomorphs in the Alien-movies.

ItsePerkele
26th Aug 2011, 15:09
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-60HZGesL9Cs/TicwIqhhH-I/AAAAAAAABa8/a9T6f15oK1k/s1600/incubus.jpg

Now this is funny and so damn scary.Is this even allowed to be posted here?

Platinumoxicity
26th Aug 2011, 16:50
Now this is funny and so damn scary.Is this even allowed to be posted here?

En tiedä mutta vie se pois.

Yaphy
26th Aug 2011, 17:27
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-60HZGesL9Cs/TicwIqhhH-I/AAAAAAAABa8/a9T6f15oK1k/s1600/incubus.jpg

Now this is funny and so damn scary.Is this even allowed to be posted here?
NSFW, please!

tinetone
28th Aug 2011, 10:27
It would be interesting if guards would have dogs or dog like beasts wich would able to fallow you in some holes and instead of being blind in darkness they would sniff you out. Instead of sniffing they could also use thermal vision like snakes.

AlexOfSpades
28th Aug 2011, 20:52
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-60HZGesL9Cs/TicwIqhhH-I/AAAAAAAABa8/a9T6f15oK1k/s1600/incubus.jpg

Now this is funny and so damn scary.Is this even allowed to be posted here?

Its not funny. Neither scary.

But could give an interesting turn on the gameplay.

Instead of blackjacking his head, you gotta blackjack his ****

Tryst
29th Aug 2011, 08:57
I'd rather like a statue that remains wholly inanimate and motionless up until you turn your back towards it

Someone has been watching Doctor Who :)

Nothing scary about statues IMO.

I would prefer a completely normal antagonist but with one or two scary missions as before. Not somethng that runs at you screaming as the inmates at the Cradle did. I would prefer something that looks normal until it's close enough to attack, then it turns scary. Maybe a part of town taken over by some fiendish whatever and looks just like a citizen until you get too close, then it takes on a demonic appearance and attacks without warning. Are you really sure you want to risk lifting that nice fat looking purse? These "citizens" would be attracted to you if you stray too near them in their attempt to get close enough to attack before detection so you'll be constantly vigilant and tending to keep to the shadows even when guards are not around.

PaddyCole
31st Aug 2011, 11:02
In the Song of the Caverns i really enjoyed coming across the sort of craymen tunnels. A bit like coming across something natural that would be probably better undisturbed. Sort of like how in Aliens the way that whole atmospheric proccessor thingy is covered in resin and you just know that it would better left undisturbed. Maybe you should come across a hive or nest of something, having to navigate through it with maybe chattering or clicking of some sort echoing throughout them. It may be even better if nothing appears at all at first, just that you know theres something or lots of something, that is unaware that your there. I dunno, i always liked having to be as sneaky as possible to avoid something purely because it is too strong to face, especially in Garrett's position. What makes something scary is the fact you can't kill it or stop it in anyway, thats why Amnesia: Dark Descent is one of the scariest games out there, no weapons, only hiding in cupboards to hopefully escape the monster.

Nico A.
1st Sep 2011, 11:26
I didn't read much of this thread yet, but while playing Thief 2X an idea occured to me: Zombies riding on Spiders! How disgusting would THAT be? :P

MasterTaffer
19th Sep 2011, 16:00
Something like the phantoms or ninjas in FEAR. Enemies that make no noise, run very fast, are almost invisible, attempt to attack you from behind, run away and hide as soon as you notice them, and then they wait in hiding, ready to ambush you. They won't follow you into a dead end, but instead wait outside for you to get out in the open where they can approach you from a safe angle.

The ninjas in FEAR could also jump into high places, and hang on walls ready to jump on you.

You mean how the Keeper Enforcers should have acted?

Platinumoxicity
19th Sep 2011, 16:31
You mean how the Keeper Enforcers should have acted?

Yeah, that would have been pretty cool. Well, maybe not as flashy as hanging on walls, but they could have been fast, totally silent and also stealthy. Upon detecting the player, they could have tried to attack and hide, and use silent telecommunication to summon backup and flank the player.

DallenMalna
14th Oct 2011, 23:19
I think going up against an assasin would be cool... having Garret beat down on or at least outclass someone like ezio once and for all would be satisfying. Also what if the keepers split into different factions...those that follow Gareet and a splinter faction that revel in the old days seeking other ancient sources of power? Also making him just alittle more mobile would be cool. (I'm not talking about turning this into an assasin game.) But being able to climb up a building and sneak into thier window to steal something would be amazing...my final suggestion is this...Anyone play gears of war? The beserkers were amazaing...tweak it to make it thiefy. it's blind but can hear you and smell you out. and it chases you into the light. and bursts through walls. As you're trying to escape out of whatever place your stuck in...

Platinumoxicity
15th Oct 2011, 08:38
Nothing personal, but that's one of the thickest concentrations of stupidest ideas for Thief that this forum has had. I mean... the world's worst assassin going after the world's greatest Thief? And keeper splinter faction that follows Garrett? Is Garrett on Twitter or something? Wouldn't that make his thiefing a bit difficult? And Gears of War probably shouldn't be brought up in this forum.

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
15th Oct 2011, 11:58
Nothing personal, but that's one of the thickest concentrations of stupidest ideas for Thief that this forum has had. I mean... the world's worst assassin going after the world's greatest Thief? And keeper splinter faction that follows Garrett? Is Garrett on Twitter or something? Wouldn't that make his thiefing a bit difficult? And Gears of War probably shouldn't be brought up in this forum.

Why, because it's more recent than 1999? GOW is third person and has mechanics we saw in DX:HR.

DallenMalna
15th Oct 2011, 13:58
Oh GEEZ DON't GET ME WRONG!... I HATE ezio...I just ment an enemy that had abilities like him would be pretty cool to be honest....I would hate to be walking along then all of a sudden a dude pops down from above and slits your throat or while in a crowd your about to pick a pocket when SHING....your dead... and again I'm tralking purely mechanics not story here....but a monster that acted like a beserker would be amazing....Let me put it this way..I mean most Thief players know the basics..stay out of the light..keep quiet....

okay so you give them a REALLY shady area..make em feel comfortible..then a HUGE creature strols out or bursts through a wall or whatever...and they have a mini heart attack but then they think, that's okay I'm in a cave or whatever so there's almost no light,I'll be fine...then you make the tiniest noise....just barely crawl....and BAM it's head swivilesd around and it screams and barels after you smashing through almost anything in it's way...it could also lead to some great AI matches... As for the keepers I just noticed that Garret was kinda IN CHARGE so that would make him the leader...and that means you have subordanants FOLLWOING HIM..I don't mean litteraly I just mean he has like an orginization now...I doubt he really likes them much but they're there anyway. And I'm sure at least half are so pissed with Garret that they just leave...maybe even try and bring down him and his Keepers....also IF their were rouge keepers running around or ex-keepers..that would be a good plot point to bring in the assasins before mentioned...And just so you know I have played and beaten all 3 theifs so it's not like I'm talking about some game I don't love.... You don't have to agree with me just know I'm not some idiot just talking out of his butt here^^

DallenMalna
15th Oct 2011, 14:12
I'm also kinda hoping for thief with the a story as good as one...tools and potions as good as 2...and the creepiness of 3 Mix that in with making gareet just a tad more agile and easy to grab edges and things, with maybe some new gimicks like enimes smelling or something. and I think you'd have a master game...long as they made a good story...and they will...oh they will...Even if you have a favorite thief all 3 were great games. Some better than others yes but still and I know Edios and Ion storm have only learned from their past games... Plus isn't square enix producing this game? Like them or not this means the team has tons of recources and cash to use...and considering they announced this game in 2008 We KNOW they're not rushing this game....So we have a great team...a great past... lot's of money...and a dedicated and devoted fanbase...I can't imagine this game not being mind blowingly awesome...:)

citywolfdreams
22nd Oct 2011, 15:57
I've said this before on other threads, but Thief is all about stealth. Making enemies more dangerous in combat would be dumb, since combat doesn't matter at all when most determined Thief players can ghost through levels.

Since Garrett's primary weapon is stealth, the most frightening, memorable, and dangerous enemies need to be those that can pierce/negate his stealth in some way. Likewise, Garrett needs a way to foil those enemies, otherwise the game would be much too hard.

Some example:
ENEMY: Guard Dog (or Guard Burrick, etc)
STEALTH PENETRATION: Can smell enemies. Will slowly sniff his way towards Garrett regardless of how deep the shadows are.
FOIL: Since the dog tracks slowly, Garrett can easily avoid it by remaining mobile and not hiding in one shadow for too long. It also loses his trail when he goes through water.

ENEMY: Harpy (or mechanical bird, vampire, etc - a generic flying creature)
STEALTH PENETRATION: Flies overhead, can spot Garrett from a different angle so horizontal cover doesn't work against them.
FOIL: Garrett will have to look up from time to time to check for their presence. Can conceal himself from them using shadows or vertical cover (ie, trees, gazebo roofs, etc)

ENEMY: Former Keeper (or nocturnal animal/beastman, etc)
STEALTH PENETRATION: Has night vision. Can perceive Garrett regardless of how dark it is.
FOIL: Garrett will have to rely on cover to conceal himself from these enemies rather than shadows. Also, flshbombs have double the normal effect against them.

ENEMY: Mosquito Fireflies
STEALTH PENETRATION: They are drawn to warm blooded creatures nearby. Their bites don't draw enough blood to hurt Garrett, but the illumination they create makes him easy to spot.
FOIL: They move slowly and have a very narrow "detection radius" so if Garrett quickly runs out, he can outrun them.

These are just examples, but they exemplify how you (and by extension, the devs) should be thinking when contemplating new enemies. Instead of contemplating the "coolness factor" of enemies, concentrate on what makes this enemy unique in terms of how it interacts with stealth gameplay.

Hypevosa
23rd Oct 2011, 18:10
I think it should be another thing the player can develop skill in and perfect to the point where it's a viable strategy like anything else. I think the repercussions of not having skill and trying it should be heavy, you've seen my suggestions for making the consequences of combat much heavier than simply losing health, but if someone works at it and learns the system they should be able to come out unscathed in 1 on 1's, and the AI's should make certain they can't come out completely whole if there's more than one guard fighting them.

ChaosLad
7th Nov 2011, 05:17
I don't think those "jump-out-of-closet" -monsters would be too good. You need to think about the players who like to go through the game totally unseen. Scripted alert scenes would ruin that experience. :(

do u not remember the 2nd half of the shalebridge cradle?
the patient walking past the doorway. scripted moments do get tedious but it all depends.
if its an enemy attacking u out of nowhere then that would ruin the stealth feel but a good jump is a win :)


as for enemies how about more powerfull enemies that would want to be most avoidable like the hag and her statues

dragon
trolls
more wood nyphs
ghosts
giant bugs
shadows (that kill)
people constantly on fire
walking suits of armour

i had more but will return if i remember xD

ChaosLad
7th Nov 2011, 11:50
The rattling door was ambience but the figure that walked by was a patient that was an actual enemy of the game.

and my suggestions of the "big" enemies are for tension not hollywood.
if its a dragon or a giant snake, ogre, cyclops the concept is that its big and powerfull and if asleep the player will want to not wake it up.
if your more concerned with how it looks like the power of a good concept artist can do anything.
in skyrim dragons will be giants flying around breathing fire.
but in thief it could look like something out of this world unlike a dragon and it could be some kind of gatekeeper in a castrophobic tomb asleep.

Ibixian
22nd Nov 2011, 15:00
Guard dogs are a great idea. So are creatures with sonar and rival hidden enemies. Enemies that provides unique challenges are a plus. How about mounted guards, climbing/tree swinging ape beasts, and maybe flying/tunneling enemies? Flying creatures might be mutated bats, return of elementals, or hunters' falcons. Tunneling enemies could be phasing ghosts, glowing spider-leeches (sleep well!), more elementals, or keepers learning new magic. Also, travelling outside the city walls to dark, secluded villages could provide more wilderness encounters. I always liked the pagan forest missions. Of course, only use in good taste.

Hamadriyad
22nd Nov 2011, 15:34
How about Karras? He will be resurrect and possess by alien symbiote. And your unfriendly neighborhood Garrett will save the world again.