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kin
12th May 2009, 07:46
What it is going to be?

GmanPro
12th May 2009, 07:47
Exactly as in Thief 2

Jables_Kage
12th May 2009, 07:48
similar to all the thief games either first or third person

Smooogy
12th May 2009, 08:03
With the end of Thief Deadly Shadows, Garrett's story has come to a very interesting path, hasn't it? The gravitas of his personality always stemmed from being sarcastic, witty and misanthropic, yet now, he has become the "One True Keeper," despite the Keepers supposedly being removed for all time - Their books all blank and the knowledge lost.

Suppose Garrett now must deal with an enemy greater than any he has encountered before... Himself! What sort of abilities could he possess as the One True Keeper? If he has truly learned as much as he looked to at the end of TDS, an obvious and very cool epiphany, will Garrett now have supernatural thieving skills?

If so, what sort of targets could he go after? Oh its so cool! Think of it! Perhaps only the one true keeper would be able to stealthily disrupt or invade the lairs of powerful enemies / supernatural enemies / even kings maybe! With Thief 4, the anty could be upped so high the sky is the limit! :group_hug:

Jables_Kage
12th May 2009, 08:11
i dont think its a good idea to give him supernatural abilities. he already has a massive edge over his foes anyway so why make it even easier for him?

Smooogy
12th May 2009, 08:15
True.

Platinumoxicity
12th May 2009, 08:23
He should probably take his thiefy gear, start planning a mission and steal some stuff, like he always does. After the job the keepers would come to his apartment and say: "But Garrett, you are supposed to be the one true keeper now, you're supposed to act like it too." And Garrett would answer: "Like hell I should! Go taff yourselves, I've got bills to pay."

And Garrett would also have let the young girl go, because he wouldn't want the kind of responsibility that he had, for her. Also, because he has more important things to do.

Sorry if I'm so fundamentally against Garrett's transformation, but I just think that Garrett is better than that. He doesn't need to be transformed to some Jedi Master. He's perfect the way he is.

mister_riz
12th May 2009, 08:34
Exactly as in Thief 2

This.

DarthEnder
12th May 2009, 13:30
I'm actually for the idea of Garrett's transformation which is why I don't think he should be the player character anymore. He's the One True Keeper now and he's too busy trying to maintain balance in The City to be pulling heists.

It's time to play an up and coming thief in the City who has to deal with constantly being manipulated by Garrett.

dogsolitude_uk
12th May 2009, 14:13
Sometimes a series jumps the shark, and needs rebooting.

Why is it that every protagonist in every movie/game/book have to be some sort of 'chosen one'? Or the 'One True Path and The Way and The Messiah'?

Garrett is not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

Smooogy
12th May 2009, 18:24
Sometimes a series jumps the shark, and needs rebooting.

Why is it that every protagonist in every movie/game/book have to be some sort of 'chosen one'? Or the 'One True Path and The Way and The Messiah'?

Garrett is not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.
-dogsolitude_uk
Protagonist


Yeah, that's why I think it's brilliant to consider the options. Garrett being the One True Keeper gives us as the player, options. Options are good (See System Shock 2 for details)
Now, I know what you're thinking and I completely understand. Don't fix a system that isn't broke.
I.E. Garrett steals using only his wits and his stealthy discretion, mainly just because he's just that darn good! We all love that, but with the ending of TDS, now Garrett HAS to be something more... To continue the story.

No Dog, you're absolutely right! Garrett is no messiah. That's just what could make him even cooler... He has this power now, but doesn't want it, but you know he's going to have to face it at some point. Garrett can be just as interesting as usual, even better, if they take this chance to add even more to his character.

I'm not saying copy system shock 2 and give us a ridiculous amount of tools to use, or make the game too easy, all I'm saying is let's at least give Garrett something new now that he is the one true keeper.
How to win in thief? We all know the routine. Hide in the dark, stealth attack, but there are also situations in reality where there is no darkness... How could Garrett overcome without being diced to pieces by twenty drunken guards?

Not by whoopin all of them like an assassin or anything, but don't tell me you're never had fantasies of invisibility! Maybe if only for a moment? Or, possibly the ability to sense what is around the corner, see through walls (only for a short amount of time, only a few times each level)

At this point, Garrett can't get much cooler without being given some supernatural abilities, at least one. IMO But whatever happens, I'm still gonna luv it

Ice1019
12th May 2009, 20:22
I think Garrett's abilities were always a little bit beyond natural human abilities. What I mean by that is, Garrett, instructed by the Keepers, can virtually disappear in darkness or semi-darkness. If someone isn't looking for him, he's pretty much invisible. I don't think his status as the One True Keeper should change his stealth abilities. The Keepers themselves say "his heart was clouded and his balance lost, but his abilities were unmatched." He's already one of the best. The One True Keeper idea should be more of a lore idea, binding Garrett back into a war between order and chaos that he want's nothing to do with.

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
12th May 2009, 21:29
It seems Garrett always has been in service to fate and "the balance"(having saved the world/city three times). Being the True Keeper probably only solidify this position (much to Garrets annoyance I guess).
I hope they don't give him any "super powers", he should, as always, have abilities more tied to what is "uncanny" and undefinable (Tied to perception and "fate") like how he managed to spot the keeper as a child and of course his ability to sneak unseen.

CurtX
12th May 2009, 23:09
hopefully nothing like the training mission in Deadly Shadows where it literally shows you the path to take through the shadows as if we are all idiots.

Nate
12th May 2009, 23:18
Guys, there are a lot of problems with Thief DS...but how it manages in game sounds in regards to stealth AND how it manages lighting in regards to stealth IS FAR SUPERIOR to Thief 1 and 2.

In the early Thief games, all you had to do is stand on a puddle of shadow and you were hidden. Your silhouette wasn't factored in.

Also, in the early Thief games, ambient sounds couldn't drown out the sounds you made moving around.

Thief DS could do all of that.

If they just stick to an updated Thief DS stealth system (in regards to lighting and sound), everything should be just fine.

Neb
12th May 2009, 23:58
The One True Keeper idea should be more of a lore idea, binding Garrett back into a war between order and chaos that he want's nothing to do with.

Definately. As far as I remember, in previous games he wanted to retire from thieving completely. Why would he give a damn about keeping balance? (Balance is for sissies by the way).


Guys, there are a lot of problems with Thief DS...but how it manages in game sounds in regards to stealth AND how it manages lighting in regards to stealth IS FAR SUPERIOR to Thief 1 and 2.

In the early Thief games, all you had to do is stand on a puddle of shadow and you were hidden. Your silhouette wasn't factored in.

Also, in the early Thief games, ambient sounds couldn't drown out the sounds you made moving around.

Thief DS could do all of that.

If they just stick to an updated Thief DS stealth system (in regards to lighting and sound), everything should be just fine.

I haven't played Deadly Shadows in a long time, but one thing it made too easy was the lack of footsteps while crouching.

Other than that, sounds just about right to me. There is the technology to tighten up the lighting and sound. :)

Nate
13th May 2009, 00:21
Yeah, I agree that there should be some minor sound caused by even crouched movement....especially on noisy surfaces (makes a use for moss arrows)

Smooogy
13th May 2009, 01:38
Garrett with super powers? No, not what I meant at all. How about a sixth sense? You know, like the one he already has except now you can use it at whim?

I just feel like its a moot point for Garrett to be the One True Keeper if no changes are made to his abilities or percetion. What's the point of that? All he gets is a hand tatoo of a key? That's like having en epiphany and going right back to the path you've supposed to have already walked. Nah man, let it lead into greater things.

The more often Garrett tries to steal for a living and fails, because of this or that, epic crusades, the less credible he is as a good thief, because he always seems broke. I think its about time Garrett transcends what he's been doing for the past 10 years.

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 01:45
If Garrett really wanted the powers of the Glyphs he could have just stayed with the Keepers. I think he isn't interested in that power.

That, or he pulls a Kyle Kattarn and gets corrupted by his new powers. Then decides to stop using them because he doesn't want them to control him.

Ice1019
13th May 2009, 06:47
Yeah, I agree with Gman, Garrett doesn't want superpowers, he certainly doesn't need them. Glyphs having a corrupting influence on him might be cool, literally fighting to keep the Balance within him.

The stealth in Thief should be a hair beyond reality. I think I mentioned before that the Keepers have this almost preternatural ability to not be noticed, especially when they are in shadow. But, disappearing in an only slightly darkened hallway is pushing it.

kin
13th May 2009, 16:13
I heard something about a cover system and no shadow cover like the original titles? I hope it is not true else it looks that somebody has crap ideas and others agree with him.
Luckily there there will be the Dark mod also to have a backup just in case.

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
13th May 2009, 17:01
I would strongly advice against removing the Garretts ability to hide in/"merge with" shadow, as it seems to be the prime aspect of his (and probably keepers ) ability of move unseen. (It seems like a non-glyph based "meta-physical" ability, to use shadows to withdraw shadows oneself from the perception of others if no direct observation has already been established)

Smooogy
13th May 2009, 23:06
"I heard something about a cover system and no shadow cover like the original titles? I hope it is not true else it looks that somebody has crap ideas and others agree with him.
Luckily there there will be the Dark mod also to have a backup just in case."
- kin

Crap ideas? Why is it a crap idea to add new gameplay elements to a series that is so old? And whoever said I thought it was a good idea to remove shadows is a moron. That's not what I said.

GmanPro
14th May 2009, 01:29
The cover based stealth system is in DX3. Thief 4 obviously has to have shadows .... right EM!?!?

Frayga
14th May 2009, 02:24
I'm actually for the idea of Garrett's transformation which is why I don't think he should be the player character anymore. He's the One True Keeper now and he's too busy trying to maintain balance in The City to be pulling heists.

It's time to play an up and coming thief in the City who has to deal with constantly being manipulated by Garrett.

I'm pretty sure i left something just like this in DO'S and DON'TS.
Awesome Idea.

Corvin25
14th May 2009, 21:35
Exactly as in Thief 2

This.

Flashart
15th May 2009, 13:35
I'd like to see more use given to the thing that DOES make him
different, his EYE!
I feel it's full potential has never been realized, I'm not talking x-ray or infa-red vision,
perhaps viewing a room through a keyhole, or using his eye to detect which lockpick
to select. Or some sort of filter to detect people in say, fog/ smoke etc.
The "sniper scope" has been used quite well in several games, I'm sure there's got
to be a useful application for the eye.

Jayy
15th May 2009, 14:37
I found for the most part the stealth system worked reasonably well in Thief 3, but I would draw developers' attention to a few little problems in that game. One was that (I don't know about the pc version, I just played the console version), it seemed all but impossible to place items quietly down. If you accidentally picked something up you didn't want and there was a guard nearby, either they had to go away, or you had to risk the "what's that" reaction when you dropped what any good thief would place. Another was that the game would go "uh uh" whenever you tried to place a body in the shadows at the base of a wall, or in the corner of a room (exactly where you would place it if you didn't want it discovered).:scratch:

Jayy
15th May 2009, 14:53
It might be good for there to be no light gem, provided there is a way of seeing clearly whether you're in or out of shadows. Make your concealment seem naturally determined by the world you can see. This would probably require a potential third person view for checking where your body parts are relative to angles of buildings and positions of shadows.

Nate
15th May 2009, 16:25
Lol, yeah they definitely need to allow the players to put down an item quietly.

Also, the light gem removal might be a neat idea..players would have to watch where they go instead of relying on the magic gem to tell them.

I am still holding out for a weight/encumbrance system that gives stealth/speed penalties for players who load up too much on equipment.

DarthEnder
16th May 2009, 02:02
It's a bit of a departure, but I'd like to see Garrett's movement handled in Gears, like on a car, and you switch gears depending on what you want to do, and the types of moves Garrett does is dependent on what Gear he's on.

To start with, you have the low gear, or Stealth Gear. In this gear, Garrett moves slow, he moves quietly, he can go even slower and quieter by crouching, he has alot of context sensitive moves that involve hugging walls and corners and peeking around them. If you want to backstab or blackjack you have to be in Stealth Gear.

Then you have the high gear, or Agility Gear. In this mode, Garrett is all about moving fast, but makes alot of noise. He moves in a vary parkour like fashion in agility mode and his context sensitive controls are all for climbing things and leaping up things rather than hugging corners. This is also the gear for running away like crazy.

Those two are a must, but you could have other gears as well.

A middle gear, the Casual Gear, where you just walk at a normal pace. You aren't trying to be stealthy, you are behaving as if you belong where you are. This gear is good for moving at a medium speed, or for walking down an inhabited street without looking conspicuous, or, if there are any missions where you disguise yourself as an enemy, Casual Gear allows you to just...act like your supposed to be a guard or whatever your disguise is.

Then you have the overdrive, Combat Gear, for when you've been caught, and you don't feel like running, you want to stand and fight. You whip out your short sword and dagger and take your melee stance. In this gear your moves are all about swinging or parrying attacks with the short sword, performing a perfectly timed counter strike to know your opponents weapon to the side so you can thrust in with the dagger in your offhand.


So basically, you could use this to give Garrett a wide variety of moves with only a few keys, by simply allowing the player to switch gears immediately as nessecary.

Nate
16th May 2009, 02:14
They already have all that in the prior 3 games. Garrett in regular mode, Garrett in tippy toe mode and Garrett in crouched tippy toe mode.

Platinumoxicity
16th May 2009, 09:46
It might be good for there to be no light gem, provided there is a way of seeing clearly whether you're in or out of shadows. Make your concealment seem naturally determined by the world you can see. This would probably require a potential third person view for checking where your body parts are relative to angles of buildings and positions of shadows.

A better idea: The light gem should not be visible at all in 3rd person mode, as a sort of a punishment for it. ;)

ToMegaTherion
16th May 2009, 10:24
Definitely avoid crouching-makes-no-footstep-sound. This "feature" is probably the single worst element of Deadly Shadows.

I think the core of the system is fine, but the AI just needs to be a lot more advanced, both being better at detecting the player when they should be able to (if a guard sees a door open in front of him, but can't see the player due to shadow stealth, he still knows exactly where the person should be. And a door opening with nobody walking through is intrinsically suspicious), and also being worse at detecting the player when they shouldn't be able to (in a noisy factory, they can't hear the player's steps).

And Garrett, should he show up, does not need any supernatural stealth powers because it seems he already has them. His stealth ability in all three games is superhuman.

DarthEnder
16th May 2009, 15:14
There was always one thing that I didn't really like about the first two thief games' stealth was the way you had to kind of feather the movement keys to move as quietly as possible. If you were crouched, and set to slowest movement, you could still be even quieter because you could take a tiny bit of forward movement before you would actually take a "step" and make a noise. So you could slowly make your way across a room of even tile or metal grating just by tapping the movement key in split second intervals.

This always seemed counterproductive. If you want the player to be able to move silently by going eeeeeeextra slow, just do that then, add the extra slow mode.


Personally, I don't think there should be because I think there are some surfaces you should be able to cross completely silently no matter how slow you go. After all, that's why we have moss arrows in the first place, and if you want to sneak up directly behind a guard standing on a metal grate, you better have one handy.


His stealth ability in all three games is superhuman.No it's not, because his stealth ability is in no way magic, and he's a human. So they're the peak of human possibility, but not superhuman.

Smooogy
16th May 2009, 20:18
Garrett has the perfect opportunity to show up the building climbing and psuedo stealth of assassins creed. I would like to see garrett scale walls, but to a certain extent, you know? Not like being able to leap 100 ft and live. And I don't want him to be able to lift his entire body up by his pinky on a ledge XD but anything reasonable would be very cool

huzi73
16th May 2009, 22:28
Same as thief 1-2,with next gen ai,looking through keyholes,blowing out candles,the "gear mode" made sense,but keep in mind,combat belongs to master chief,marcus fenix,stealth belongs to garret..

Yaphy
17th May 2009, 17:51
The light gem should be inproved. It doesnt have enough "levels" of showing how hidden you are. It shouldnt just "pop" between a few "levels", a smooth changing light gem would be neat! Another way to improve the difficult with the light gem is by making more difficulties. The only different between the hardest and the second hardest would be that in the hardest, the light gem is gone...

Espion
17th May 2009, 19:10
It might be good for there to be no light gem, provided there is a way of seeing clearly whether you're in or out of shadows. Make your concealment seem naturally determined by the world you can see. This would probably require a potential third person view for checking where your body parts are relative to angles of buildings and positions of shadows.

O_O



I'm begining to wonder if most of you guys are just posting to annoy fans of the original games :scratch:

You want a stealth game in 3rd person without a stealth crystal?! So basically, you don't want a Thief game then.

Someone has already said this in another thread but I think it should be brought up again; for almost ten years a large number of people have put a great deal of effort into continuing the very successful gameplay of the first two games. Thief 2x, the Dark mod, numerous FMs. This is because the vast majority of the Thief community consider Thief 2 to be the peak of the franchise and the model from which future sequels should be based on.

All you people who are suggesting all these drastic changes seem to be asking for a game that doesn't follow this model at all and it's mind numbingly confusing why you're posting in a forum for a new Thief game if you don't want to play a new Thief game.

It's perfectly possible to enhance the Thief 2 model and keep the basic fundamentals intact but from what I'm reading here people are making suggestions that follow the same mistake filled route that Thief DS took.

Could I suggest you just go and play Splinter Cell instead because the more suggestions you make, the more worried I am that the fans of Thief that have been aching for a sequel for almost ten years, the people who have kept the game alive all this time and generated the interest for a sequel, are just gonna be let down again.



:(

Yaphy
17th May 2009, 19:46
Yeah...you're right. I take back that thing with "harder difficulty=no lightgem". They still need to keep it a Thief game.

ToMegaTherion
17th May 2009, 21:32
None of the previous games succeeded in making it obvious whether you were stealthed or not without the light gem, so unless that is solved, removing the light gem is clearly a bad idea. Anyway, the gem is cool, and Garrett would know his stealth level because he's a good thief, so realism isn't worth invoking. For an extra challenge it might be worth considering of course.

Nate
18th May 2009, 01:27
I would like to see guards ACTUALLY SEE YOU if your silhouette is framed by light in the background, even if you are in shadows AND the light gem is totally dark.

ZylonBane
18th May 2009, 01:54
I would like to see guards ACTUALLY SEE YOU if your silhouette is framed by light in the background, even if you are in shadows AND the light gem is totally dark.
No, you wouldn't. You think you'd like it, but you obviously haven't thought through the gameplay ramifications of suddenly adding silhouette detection to the guard AI. If that were added, you wouldn't just have to be aware of your current direct illumination level, you'd have to be aware of the background illumination level at all points in a 360-degree arc around you. This is an order of magnitude increase in information-processing load on the player.

Just accept that Garrett has super secret Keeper hiding skillz.

Nate
18th May 2009, 03:19
Hi ZylonBane, I've seriously put a lot of thought into this.

I would welcome the realistic thieving challenge of a Silhouette detection system.

Flashart
18th May 2009, 06:42
I think the light gem is fine, I'd like more places to hide when IN light, wardrobes, under or on top 4 poster beds, under desks etc.
Also would it be possible to have all lights have a switch, at least somewhere? Even if you've got to trip the main fusebox.
I actually liked the wall-hugging in TDS, and would also like belly-crawling.
If the light has say 5 levels of "visibility", I'd also like the sound to have the same, so there's a relationship between how much noise you make for the amount of light you're in.
ie If from light to dark you were in level 2 you'd be spotted, if you were in level 2 wall hugging and moving slow you'd still be spotted. If you were wall hugging and still they'd be say a 75% chance you'd go unnoticed. It's not quite "hide in plain sight", but in the real world it is possible
to be in moderate lighting, but silent and still be undetected. (Providing no-one is searching for you)
This may read a little clumsily, but if there were 4 movement speeds, and 4 light and 4 sound levels then the permutations are quite good if you can get the "detection percentage" right.

Yaphy
18th May 2009, 07:05
I really like the crawling idea. Garret can hide under a table or a bed when gettin information from guards talkin. In thief deadly shadows you could wallhug a window and the gem would still be pure dark because you wasnt in the highlighted area from the window. But you could still see your silhouette nice and clear. Just remove the 3rd person perspektive so we dont see that. It might me to much to think about if the game was to realistik.

Espion
18th May 2009, 08:25
I think the light gem is fine, I'd like more places to hide when IN light, wardrobes, under or on top 4 poster beds, under desks etc.

Now that would be a nice addition. There've been a number of times I've wanted to be able to interact with the environment or objectes in the environment in such a way. It would also be nice to use these kinds of locations to hide guards as well. Pick up guard, fob bed, slide guard under bed, etc.


Also would it be possible to have all lights have a switch, at least somewhere? Even if you've got to trip the main fusebox.

There were times I wanted to take out some of the electric lights in the game. I tried using broadheads for it but they'd been added for gameplay purposes (a source of light that can't be put out.)

It might be nice to have a version of the electric light that you can smash out though. Whilst it would gain you more shadows, it would make a helluva noise as it smashes and then there'd be broken glass on the floor that would crunch if you step on it. The player would have to chose between less light over more noise. Also, the guards might get more suspicios if the electric lights start blowing out one by one.

It shouldn't be too hard to convey to the player which lights can/can't be smashed, but at the end of the day the point of them was to make it clear that this was a light source you couldn't douse so it wouldn't matter either way.

It would be nice to be able to sabotage the electric lights in a level though, like you say, either with a fuse box or some other means. If it's sufficiently well guarded it could just be an optional objective. Overall making the level a little easier though hard to get in the first place and guards would be a little more cautious in the sudden darkness.


I actually liked the wall-hugging in TDS, and would also like belly-crawling.

If it didn't make you almost completely invisible to guards then yeah, wall-hugging could work. Particularly for getting through narrow gaps (very useful if trying to escape from a bulky guard.)

Being able to drop to the ground as well would also be nice (double tap the crouch key), again to be able to get through to areas that larger enemies couldn't follow and also, in combination with moving, it could be used to perform a slide move great for ducking out of sight and then without breaking step sliding under a bed/cart/low object.

Yaphy
18th May 2009, 21:23
Wallhugging shouldnt make the light gem darker. Just get Garret as close to the wall as possible, it still useful at narrow corridors when a guard walks past you and you dont want to collide with him.

WVI
18th May 2009, 22:31
Guys, there are a lot of problems with Thief DS...but how it manages in game sounds in regards to stealth AND how it manages lighting in regards to stealth IS FAR SUPERIOR to Thief 1 and 2.

This. Seriously. There's so many points in Thief 2 where I have to ask myself "That doesn't count as a shadow?".

Nate
18th May 2009, 23:26
Thanks WVI. Thief's DS stealth/sound system had a LOT going for it. It is strange how few people are willing to admit DS beat the prior 2 games in this regard.

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 00:14
Wallhugging shouldnt make the light gem darker. Just get Garret as close to the wall as possible, it still useful at narrow corridors when a guard walks past you and you dont want to collide with him.
"Wallhugging" shouldn't even exist. The game should just be smart enough to automatically apply a small stealth bonus if the player happens to be standing against a wall.

WVI
19th May 2009, 00:21
Now that's just nuts. The most major benefit of wallhugging, rather than the small darkness bonus, is shifting very slightly past guards.

Nate
19th May 2009, 01:06
Hmmm, didn't one of the earlier Thief games give a bonus simply from moving against the walls? I don't mean wall hugging from DS.

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 02:34
Hmmm, didn't one of the earlier Thief games give a bonus simply from moving against the walls? I don't mean wall hugging from DS.
No.

MasterTaffer
19th May 2009, 04:57
Hmmm, didn't one of the earlier Thief games give a bonus simply from moving against the walls? I don't mean wall hugging from DS.

Yes, the player got a bit more shadow according to their light gem by being against a wall in Thief 1 & 2. It was paltry, but never the less there.

WVI
19th May 2009, 05:00
Having just gotten off Thief 2, I can confirm that.

DS actually does it without the new wallhugging mechanic, too - using the wallhug just darkens you further.

1N54N3
19th May 2009, 07:33
If he does have super powers, the jobs he does will have to be a lot harder. They should also put dogs in the game, it would be complete hax because they could smell him even if he were very well hidden :P

Neb
19th May 2009, 07:43
If he does have super powers, the jobs he does will have to be a lot harder.

Whatever they do, it won't sound as good on paper as murdering a god.

Platinumoxicity
19th May 2009, 07:47
If he does have super powers, the jobs he does will have to be a lot harder.

He doesn't have superpowers if you don't take his super sneaking into account.
"The true keeper"-status that he has now means that he doesn't need superpowers or prophecies of glyphs to change the world. Or at least I believe it's so, and the other alternative would be a very cheesy and lame plot device with no imagination utilized whatsoever.

Flashart
19th May 2009, 10:36
Yeah, I imagined wall-hugging to be more useful for squeezing past things than gaining a visibility bonus. Although if there was only 12" of shadow I's expect wall hugging as the only way I could successfully use it.

Jayy
19th May 2009, 14:14
A better idea: The light gem should not be visible at all in 3rd person mode, as a sort of a punishment for it. ;)

Or as a reward, depending on your taste.:whistle:

Yaphy
19th May 2009, 17:29
If you push youself agains the wall, at least make Garret put one hand up to protection from the wall. Let us see the arm and hand slide over the surface. If you dont know what i mean, check out mirrors edge. If you run into a wall face forward Garret puts both hands up to cover his body from being damaged like everyone with a brain do.

MasterTaffer
19th May 2009, 17:31
The technilogical limitations of yesterday are certainly vanishing, aren't they?

DarthEnder
19th May 2009, 20:22
The closest thing Garrett has to having super powers(besides his equipment which anyone could have) is the fact that he can see perfectly in the dark if the player cranks up the gamma correction.
"Wallhugging" shouldn't even exist. The game should just be smart enough to automatically apply a small stealth bonus if the player happens to be standing against a wall.That kinda makes sense. Not so much the "wallhugging shouldn't exist" but the fact that Garret should automatically hug any wall that he's standing next to. It should be something the engine does for you, without you having to press buttons for it.


They should also put dogs in the game, it would be complete hax because they could smell him even if he were very well hidden :PI agree, Ratmen should also be able to sniff you out. Garrett should essentially leave invisible footprints behind anywhere you walk, and if a dog or ratman comes across it, they'll slowly start following it. Maybe not even all the time. Like a ratman normally doesn't smell scents, but say he spots you from a distance, comes over to find you, but you've dissapeared into the shadows. While he's in search mode, he gets down on all fours and sniffs the ground, and if he finds your trail, he'll start to track you by it.

Of course, the way your gear works would have to be taken into account to allow for that. Have water arrows(washes it away) and moss arrows(masks the scent) break the scent trail when you use them behind you. Add in a potion that removes your scent for a while. Maybe make smoke bombs that ruin an enemies ability to smell for the remainder of the mission. Or have some kind of decoy scent item.

There's a lot you can do with that mechanic.

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 20:33
Not so much the "wallhugging shouldn't exist" but the fact that Garret should automatically hug any wall that he's standing next to. It should be something the engine does for you, without you having to press buttons for it.
Yes, having the game "helpfully" suck you into wallhug mode every time you get close to a wall sounds like an excellent and not at all soul-destroying idea.

Yaphy
19th May 2009, 20:44
Yes it does. I got kinda anoyed about DS when you like "poped" from and to the wall.
But they shouldnt make it hard to push yourself agains the wall. If they do it might en up like this ::mad2:

Botlas
19th May 2009, 20:54
I hated the wall-hug. That feature plus the creep feature made Deadly Shadows ridiculously easy.

DarthEnder
19th May 2009, 21:21
Yes, having the game "helpfully" suck you into wallhug mode every time you get close to a wall sounds like an excellent and not at all soul-destroying idea.What a surprise, I was kinda agreeing with you and your still trying to start an argument. You're so not a troll!

Nate
19th May 2009, 21:21
Yeah, Thief DS had some serious problems with the game being too easy.

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 21:31
What a surprise, I was kinda agreeing with you and your still trying to start an argument. You're so not a troll!
You seem to be saying that you still think that auto wall-hugging is a good idea.

DarthEnder
19th May 2009, 21:38
I'm saying, "whats the difference at that point?"

If the game is doing it for you, where the downside to it? It's no longer like a Gears of War type thing where you have to hit a button to stick to the wall, and then, if you wanna move fast, you have to remember to hit the button again otherwise when you go to make a dash, nothing happens.

It's just, when you walk up against the wall, Garrett flattens himself against it, but unless your playing in 3rd person view, you aren't even gonna notice it's happening. Just your gem gets a little darker and guards are less likely to bump into you whenever you happen to be next to a wall. And to stop wallhugging, all you have to do is step away from the wall.

If done properly there should be absolutely no negative impact to gameplay.

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 22:13
It's just, when you walk up against the wall, Garrett flattens himself against it, but unless your playing in 3rd person view, you aren't even gonna notice it's happening.
Given that wallhugging is pretty well defined as stopping, facing perpendicular to a wall, and smashing yourself up against it, I find it extremely unlikely that this could happen without the player noticing. If this isn't what's happening, it shouldn't be called wallhugging.

Slugo
20th May 2009, 00:26
The more realistic the stealth system, the better. I love a challenge!

There should also be difficulty settings for people who don't want a challenge so they can have fun too.

DarthEnder
20th May 2009, 03:51
Given that wallhugging is pretty well defined as stopping, facing perpendicular to a wall, and smashing yourself up against it.Er, why exactly do you have to stop OR face perpendicular to the wall? Does you neck not work for some reason?

Gorephazer
20th May 2009, 04:04
I like the automatic wall-hugging idea. It just makes sense really--you should be able to move as close as possible to a wall by doing nothing more than, well, moving close to it. It would make movement much more fluid too, and would be really amazing if there was full body awareness accompanying it

ToMegaTherion
20th May 2009, 10:45
Being dragged around against your will just for being close to a wall seems quite an annoying system.

The "big idea" of pressing yourself right up close to a wall is, to me, to avoid any guard who is otherwise going to walk right into you. With that in mind, if it exists it should be: player-controlled, not giving any visibility bonus whatsoever (just makes you further away from the guard and harder to bump in to), and probably unreliable in some way.

Flashart
20th May 2009, 11:04
It should not be automatic, if folks want to fine, but if you just want to walk normally you should be able to. The choice has to be available.

Nate
20th May 2009, 17:43
Yeah, don't want magnetic walls through the whole game!

Mikkowl
21st May 2009, 07:03
Certainly the foundation of the stealth system should approximate the Thief 1-2-3 system.

I hope the system can add even more mechanics.

In Thief: The Dark Project - there was a mission with social stealth, similar to Assassin's Creed and Hitman series. The player infiltrated a hammer church under the guise of being an acolyte, with forbidden areas and such. It was a bit crudely implemented in Thief, but worked very well.

The systems could be mixed, with a focus on traditional steath over social stealth. I.e. you might (with either cunning, luck or otherwise intended) get a hold of a suitable attire, papers/clearance necessary to enter certain areas openly instead of having to sneak in. The good old 'buy your equipment before the mission' could offer up such items at a high cost for a slight benefit in the mission and a slightly different type of experience for those who wish to risk that instead of sneaking everywhere.

Just more options for the player, deducting from neither.

DarthEnder
21st May 2009, 15:42
Ugh, you people are completely missing the point of automatic wallhugging. All this talk about magnetic walls and being dragged into the wall, your applying notions of wallhugging from previous games to this, and that's not the case.

In a normal stealth game with wallhugging, like say a splinter cell, or T3, say, your in a hallway. In the hallway, you can only move left or right until such point as your shoulder hits the wall, yes? Then you can hit the wallhug button to flatten up against the wall.

With automatic wallhugging, you reach that point where your shoulder hits the wall, and if you keep moving, the character automatically flattens himself against the wall until you get to the point where your head is next to the wall. But he doesn't "stick" to the wall. The instant you move towards the middle of the hall again the character stops flattening himself.

From a first person gameplay perspective, it would make the game MORE like T1 and T2 because your in engine body isn't getting in the way. It's as if there's a pillar running down the middle of your body, and your "body" reorients itself around this pillar in order to fit up against whatever you happen to push yourself up against.

Another example would be if you were holding a ragdoll in your hand by the head, and you control the ragdoll by moving the head around, If you press the ragdoll's head into the wall, his limbs are just gonna get smooshed out of the way. In game it would be the same. You hold garrett by his head, and you control it the way you want, and the body just moves as it needs to. Except instead of being a ragdoll, garretts body has context sensitive animation to make it look natural.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
23rd May 2009, 18:38
I guess this is the right thread to bring this up.

I've been playing the Thief games again and couldn't help but notice a couple things that could be changed.

I'd like to be able to open the doors a little more stealthily. I find it odd that Garrett opens doors wide open. I'd like to open it gradually like in Rainbow Six: Raven Shield. This way I can enter a room quietly when I feel I should. I should still be able to swing a door wide open though, this is a neat way to get a guard's attention. He inspects the door and wham, blackjacked.

And why the heck can't I look through a keyhole? This seems like such an obvious thing to include in the game. I hope they do...

xDarknessFallsx
23rd May 2009, 18:54
Auto wall hugging would be bad for Thief, imo. You spend so much time next to walls and by objects and desks that Garrett would be getting jerked all around and hisi movements hard to control or predict. I hate wall hugging in games where you're in a dire fight for life, but you have to unstick yourself from the wall first. Wall hugging would likely compromise the freedom of movement I want and feel I need in Thief.

As for slow door opening, I agree there should be a way to slowly open a door and a way to just open it like normal. I could've swore this was possible in T2 by holding down the sneak key when opening a door, but I can't seem to make it happen.

As for looking thru keyhole, that'd be cool... but I think I read on the Dark Mod forums once that it's not realistic, unfortunately. That's my recollection anyways

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
23rd May 2009, 19:13
-Auto wall-hugging does sound bad. If wall hugging were to be in the game, I would be ok with a button toggle like in TDS. As for wall hugging itself I think it's kinda neat. It seems silly that I wouldn't try my best to get out of a guards way if he were walking by. Or if a guard can actually see my silhouette, Wall-hugging would be the obvious way to be sneakier.

-Doors: If there is a way to slowly open a door already I will feel really dumb! I've never done it.

-Keyhole: As if the Thief games were realistic anyway? I think keyhole-looking fits the game perfectly. I imagine a good many of the doors to have a big ol' keyhole. Not all of them of course. That would be cheesy, like being able to use the optiwand on every door in Swat 4. I just hate when I open a door wide open to a brightly lit room with guards in it. I may as well kill myself. Keyhole viewing and stealthy door opening seems a must to me.

hexhunter
23rd May 2009, 19:18
You should reread Darthenders post Darkness, what he suggests is the opposite from what you think, you would never be "stuck" to a wall, rather the more you press Garrett up against it the flatter his body becomes, you could sidle along the wall by walking diagonally against it, or just flatten yourself by walking perpindicular into the wall, to "detach" you would only have to stop holding the WASD/analog stick or hold it away from the wall.

I think he explained it better...

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
23rd May 2009, 19:33
Well if it's not 'sticky' then I guess it's cool. I read DarthEnder's post a few more times. I get it now. I just couldn't help but imagine it being like in TDS but automatically sticking to the wall. THAT sounds bad. If it's seamless to get in and out of and doesn't shift my view away from the direction I'm facing then that sounds awesome.

citywolfdreams
23rd May 2009, 19:39
The AI is the most important part fo the game. We need to see enemies with different search patterns.

Thief was an awesome game, but looking back on it now, the AI seems a bit dated. "Oh - a dead body! I'll search around a little with my sword drawn." Five minutes pass. "Guess it was nothing. I suppose Jeff just had a heart attack. Which looks like a stab wound. Oh well."

We need enemies who are smarter, and there should be different levels of alertness depending on what they have noticed. A noise from the dark could be dismissed as "probably just rats." If they find an unconscious body, their entire behavior algorithm should change. Maybe they verbally warn others whom they come in contact with, and they remain on alert throughout the evening. And they should be specifically focusing on dark places where the intruder might be hiding.

We also need enemies that are more unique in their search patterns, not just in how they attack or how much damage they do. For example, here are some enemies that I think would be really cool.

Guard dogs that can slowly track you by scent, even if they can't see you. Hiding in the shadows waiting for the alert to go down wouldn't be good enough when the guards break the dogs out - you would have to operate under an element of time pressure, or find ways to throw off the scent for a while. (Examples - go in wander, toss a bottle of women's perfume behind you, etc)

Harpies (or some other airborne foe). Probably found at Pagan sites. This enemies are airborne and fly high overhead lazily. When they see you, they swoop in quickly, attacking with their talons. Worst of all, since they can fly over obstacles, it is very difficult for you to take them down if they are flee, so they are very effective at spreading alerts. (Keys to avoiding/fighting them - keep an eye on the sky, or stick to enclosed areas where they are less manueoverable)

Ghosts that can (gasp) actually walk through walls. Best of all, their patrol patterns and searching would take them through walls. So, you think that hallway is clear... are about to make a run down to the far end... and all of a sudden a ghost steps through the wall, walks through the hallway, and disappears through the other wall. Building suspense is a lot easier when you don't know where your enemies are coming from.

DarthEnder
25th May 2009, 19:04
You should reread Darthenders post Darkness, what he suggests is the opposite from what you think, you would never be "stuck" to a wall, rather the more you press Garrett up against it the flatter his body becomes, you could sidle along the wall by walking diagonally against it, or just flatten yourself by walking perpindicular into the wall, to "detach" you would only have to stop holding the WASD/analog stick or hold it away from the wall.

I think he explained it better...Thank you! I'm glad someone actually read what I typed instead of just reading the word "autowallhug" and freaking out without reading the rest.

Walking diagonally against the wall to sidle along the wall is a perfect description.


Harpies (or some other airborne foe). Probably found at Pagan sites. This enemies are airborne and fly high overhead lazily. When they see you, they swoop in quickly, attacking with their talons. Worst of all, since they can fly over obstacles, it is very difficult for you to take them down if they are flee, so they are very effective at spreading alerts. (Keys to avoiding/fighting them - keep an eye on the sky, or stick to enclosed areas where they are less manueoverable)Or throw a flashbomb when they swoop in to make them crash into the ground!
I'd like to be able to open the doors a little more stealthily. I find it odd that Garrett opens doors wide open. I'd like to open it gradually like in Rainbow Six: Raven Shield. This way I can enter a room quietly when I feel I should. I should still be able to swing a door wide open though, this is a neat way to get a guard's attention.I agree. Make it so if you hold down the right button, the door slowly swings open and stops when you let go, or just click the button to swing the door open.

MasterTaffer
25th May 2009, 19:17
-Keyhole: As if the Thief games were realistic anyway? I think keyhole-looking fits the game perfectly. I imagine a good many of the doors to have a big ol' keyhole. Not all of them of course. That would be cheesy, like being able to use the optiwand on every door in Swat 4. I just hate when I open a door wide open to a brightly lit room with guards in it. I may as well kill myself. Keyhole viewing and stealthy door opening seems a must to me.

Indeed, I brought up keyhole viewing in a different thread. It's been done in Hitman since Hitman 2, but I think it would fit better in Thief's universe. And while it's true, not ever door would have a keyhole, I would like some varient present on every door. Perhaps looking between boards on a wooden door, or even going prone to look underneath the door to see some feet.

Truth is, there are very few stealth games that don't give some sort of means to look on the otherside of the door. Most infiltration specialists don't leave that sort of thing to chance. Agent 47 looks through keyholes, Sam Fisher uses an optic cable under the door, etc. If Garrett is the best at what he does, he wouldn't leave that to chance either.

DarthEnder
25th May 2009, 20:22
Indeed, I brought up keyhole viewing in a different thread. It's been done in Hitman since Hitman 2, but I think it would fit better in Thief's universe. And while it's true, not ever door would have a keyhole, I would like some varient present on every door. Perhaps looking between boards on a wooden door, or even going prone to look underneath the door to see some feet.

Truth is, there are very few stealth games that don't give some sort of means to look on the otherside of the door. Most infiltration specialists don't leave that sort of thing to chance. Agent 47 looks through keyholes, Sam Fisher uses an optic cable under the door, etc. If Garrett is the best at what he does, he wouldn't leave that to chance either.Crack the door, toss in a Viewing Orb.

Or if they miniaturized Viewing Orbs, just roll it under the door.

Platinumoxicity
25th May 2009, 20:40
Or you could, like... put your ear against the door and listen? Like in the Thief series, you know? :)

DarthEnder
26th May 2009, 00:46
That's very true also.

Nate
26th May 2009, 04:36
Did Thief DS allow you to lean into doors to hear what is happening on the other side? I can't recall.

huzi73
26th May 2009, 10:50
Did Thief DS allow you to lean into doors to hear what is happening on the other side? I can't recall.

Didnt TMA have that feature?

hawk047
28th May 2009, 09:27
Guys, there are a lot of problems with Thief DS...but how it manages in game sounds in regards to stealth AND how it manages lighting in regards to stealth IS FAR SUPERIOR to Thief 1 and 2..

This.

citywolfdreams
30th May 2009, 07:15
[QUOTE=DarthEnder;1004610]
Or throw a flashbomb when they swoop in to make them crash into the ground!IQUOTE]

You know, I didn't even think about this when coming up with the flying monster idea, but yes, that would be awesome and fit perfectly into the spirit of Thief - using cleverness to turn the enemies strengths against them. :)

Vae
30th May 2009, 12:24
I heard something about a cover system and no shadow cover like the original titles? I hope it is not true else it looks that somebody has crap ideas and others agree with him.

If that ends up being true, then measures will have to be taken. ;)

Vae
30th May 2009, 12:55
I hated the wall-hug. That feature plus the creep feature made Deadly Shadows ridiculously easy.

Yes, indeed.

Even though it sounds like a good idea and may look "cool" from a third person view, wall-hugging made things relatively brainless for those who preferred not to think as hard in order to resolve a challenging tactical situation. Of course T3 wasn't really all that challenging to begin with, especially with "creep" mode which basically eliminated the need for you to worry about making any noise regardless of what surface you were on. :(

clock12345
30th May 2009, 16:16
you can collect rocks and drop them to distract the guards that would be a great thing

Yaphy
30th May 2009, 16:34
I wonder if some people still havent seen DarthEnders post about the wallhugging thing:

"Ugh, you people are completely missing the point of automatic wallhugging. All this talk about magnetic walls and being dragged into the wall, your applying notions of wallhugging from previous games to this, and that's not the case.

In a normal stealth game with wallhugging, like say a splinter cell, or T3, say, your in a hallway. In the hallway, you can only move left or right until such point as your shoulder hits the wall, yes? Then you can hit the wallhug button to flatten up against the wall.

With automatic wallhugging, you reach that point where your shoulder hits the wall, and if you keep moving, the character automatically flattens himself against the wall until you get to the point where your head is next to the wall. But he doesn't "stick" to the wall. The instant you move towards the middle of the hall again the character stops flattening himself.

From a first person gameplay perspective, it would make the game MORE like T1 and T2 because your in engine body isn't getting in the way. It's as if there's a pillar running down the middle of your body, and your "body" reorients itself around this pillar in order to fit up against whatever you happen to push yourself up against.

Another example would be if you were holding a ragdoll in your hand by the head, and you control the ragdoll by moving the head around, If you press the ragdoll's head into the wall, his limbs are just gonna get smooshed out of the way. In game it would be the same. You hold garrett by his head, and you control it the way you want, and the body just moves as it needs to. Except instead of being a ragdoll, garretts body has context sensitive animation to make it look natural."

This is how we want the wall hugging to be! Dont take it away, improve it, make it better, easier to use and not so unbalanced as it was. DarthEnder was all correct in how we all want it. Stop skip over post and still think you can say its wrong when you havent even read whats the whole thing is about.

Thanks DarthEnder for the brilliant post! :thumb:

hawk047
30th May 2009, 18:58
Aslong as the game retains its original light/dark stealth system, I'm happy.
Oh, and a nice little light gem.:)


No it's not, because his stealth ability is in no way magic, and he's a human. So they're the peak of human possibility, but not superhuman.

Do you have the ability to become completely invisible in a shadow surrounded by light sources?

fayfuya
12th Jun 2009, 14:06
Stop bull****ting, if you loved the previous Thief games, you will love the next, with or without supernatural powers, Garrett, doesn't need any of those, he's the god of stealth, what do you want more than that?

Shadow Blade
17th Jun 2009, 09:37
Creeping:In TDS you could creep (and crouch) over every surface (from wood to metal) and not make a noise(this took away the primary use for moss arrows) Should this change in Thief 4? And if it you dont want it to change should some floor types have places where they make a noise if stepped on (e.g Creaking wood or stepping on broken glass)



Low Objects: If Garrett is standing on a low object like a crate that does not have much of a fall should he be able to lower himself slowly so that he does not have to jump off and make a noise when he lands?


What are your thoughts and ideas?

Hamadriyad
17th Jun 2009, 09:48
1. Yes, this should change. Broken glasses, creaking woods etc. would be nice addings though.
2.We need that, definitely.
Besides, swat turn would be useful for a thief , but I don't know.Nice move but maybe too splinter cell.

Platinumoxicity
17th Jun 2009, 10:15
1. You shouldn't be able to walk completely silent on noisy surfaces, that's what moss arrows are for. Also, the 100% silent crouch needs to go too. The original movement system was perfect.
2. This feature was in T1 and T2, you could crouch and gently lower yourself to the floor and it didn't make any sound. In TDS you made a racket even if you dropped down from 20cm. This feature also worked like a "hang-drop" where you could lower yourself from slightly higher platforms without hurting yourself. Just like what you'd do in the real world.

Shadow Blade
17th Jun 2009, 10:38
1. Yes, this should change. Broken glasses, creaking woods etc. would be nice addings though.
2.We need that, definitely.
Besides, swat turn would be useful for a thief , but I don't know.Nice move but maybe too splinter cell.


It would be a nice move but in general maybe a bit to modern for thief. Also if you put yourself right up against the wall maybe they can let you peer around corners (like with the lean buttons) so you dont expose yourself as much(but have a more limited field of vision from this method) and still let you use the same old lean if your not against a wall.

fayfuya
17th Jun 2009, 14:32
Yes, good ideas taffers, TDS stealth system was too easy to play, i could just stick to the wall and i'm safe even from atom bombs, i crouch or creep and even cats wouldn't hear me, the guards step over my head and scream "where are you noisy little taffer!!!?".
It should be a bit harder to sneak around, even for Garrett.

ToMegaTherion
17th Jun 2009, 14:55
I believe the silent creeping and crouching is a horrible example of Executive Meddling. I think it is comfortably the worst thing about Deadly Shadows.

Shadow Blade
17th Jun 2009, 15:52
I can understand if crouching + creeping at the same time can dampen the sound of your foot steps (not by that much though and with a movement penalty) but there is no ways it can completely eliminate the noise you make.

Another thing I noticed about TDS is the speed at which you creeped seemed pretty quick. I dont think you should be able to keep up with a guard walking his normal pace if your creeping

Hamadriyad
17th Jun 2009, 17:04
I forgot to say: If you look at New Moves threat(unfortunately it's an old threat, you have to search)you will see some interesting stealty movement ideas. I hope it will help you and expand your ideas.;)

Shadow Blade
18th Jun 2009, 10:40
I forgot to say: If you look at New Moves threat(unfortunately it's an old threat, you have to search)you will see some interesting stealty movement ideas. I hope it will help you and expand your ideas.;)

Much apprecitated I will definetly check it out thanks. Every little bit of information counts. As Garrett once said "Its the smallest leak that makes the biggest difference":)

Platinumoxicity
18th Jun 2009, 11:30
I always though that something was missing from the noisiness levels of different surfaces in T1 and T2. TDS doesn't count because crouching and creeping were silent at all times.

Thief 1/2 surface noisiness levels:

Moss
-Can't hear in any circumstances.

Carpet/Grass/Sand/Ice/Soft snow
-Can't hear creep-crouching, can't hear crouching, can't hear walking, can't hear running.
-Can barely hear jumping.
-No alerts.

Wood/Concrete/Stone
-Can't hear creep-crouching, can't hear crouching, can't hear walking.
-Can barely hear running.
-Alerted by jumping.

???? <--- Where's this middle ground?
-Can't hear creep-crouching, can't hear crouching.
-Can barely hear walking.
-Alerted by running, alerted by jumping.

Metal/Tile/Gravel/Glass
-Alerted by creep-crouching, alerted by crouching, alerted by walking, alerted by running, alerted by jumping.

-P.S I also didn't take shallow water into account.

Flashart
18th Jun 2009, 13:22
My post seems to have gone awol in the move.
Assuming 3 speeds "Run, Walk, Creep", 3 movement types "Run, Walk, Creep" and 3 levels of surface "Dull, Normal, Bright" you need then to figure out what level of stealth triggers what reaction from the guards. (ie Does running on a "dull" surface like carpet, draw the same level of attention as walking on "normal"?) I like the wall-hug, it feels like a "real" thing to do, but it shouldn't render you invisible, but should make you fit into a smaller "footprint"

Hamadriyad
18th Jun 2009, 20:06
Much apprecitated I will definetly check it out thanks. Every little bit of information counts. As Garrett once said "Its the smallest leak that makes the biggest difference":)

You are welcome. I am glad to help you. :p

Shadow Blade
19th Jun 2009, 11:26
You are welcome. I am glad to help you. :p

It helped very much:) this is what ive found:


All the way from T1, Garrett has been able to:
-Use a crate to climb over an obstable too tall. (Hard in TDS)
-Move down from a ledge in crouch position to soften the landing and making it quiet ninja style. (Not in TDS)
-Knock guards out while airborne. Death from above! ...I mean sleep from above. :) (Not in TDS)
-Set objects down slowly and quietly (Not in TDS)
-Lean forward when climbing up a steep sloped surface, to get 4WD and more grip. (Not in TDS)
-Swim underwater to avoid splashing around. (Not in TDS)
-Move very slowly over noisy surfaces to avoid making noise (Too easy in TDS :( )

Bring back all these moves as they were and you have a perfect set of moves that come naturally without even thinking of them, unlike for example, wall jumps or ukemi landing.

The "opening a door slowly" is a great idea though. ;)

Most of the moves mentioned above add to the stealth and Agility factors and should be returned (why they where removed from TDS is anyones guess). Opening a door slowly would be a nice addition (The A.I should also react to doors opening randomly in front of them). Anyone that has a good Idea for a new stealth move that is not too James Bond like ( a beliveable move lol) is encouraged to post it here please:D

Hamadriyad
19th Jun 2009, 12:13
I am glad to help you, again.:p

And If any move comes to my mind, I'll post here.;)

Flashart
19th Jun 2009, 18:46
I'll post this here as I think it's relevant to stealth and movement. What about Garrett moving when "encumbered" carrying a body etc. He's moving slower than walking but not exactly creeping. Does this make him more visible and less noisy, or some other combination?
I wondered if this trick might be used in a mission where you say, had to carry a gold ingot or somesuch. Plus, moving with a body he has one hand free (could possibly climb?), but carrying a crate he's using both hands, so again this might reflect the type of movement and attention he can attract.

jtr7
19th Jun 2009, 19:14
The encumbrance has oft been discussed, and you will find that it would just make the game slower and slower and less fun. He was slowed down significantly carrying a body, but all his loot and gear were never a problem, and I thought he was more visible carrying bodies. He was able to climb ropes with a body (he didn't need to hold the body with his hands, just bent over his shoulder)--which seemed like it should've been a real chore anyway. Carrying a body won't make you creep unless you are not strong enough to be carrying a body. People can jog with a body over their shoulder, so that's not a worry. Garrett has no stamina issues except when underwater.

Flashart
20th Jun 2009, 09:08
I didn't mean an "encumberance" penalty for his gear,loot or stamina, I meant when he is physically carrying something in his hands, say a crate. He'd be moving slowly but not creeping, I just thought it might be an interesting dynamic to exploit in a mission, (if you had to replace a crate of loot with a dummy crate). It's like the "ear to the door" move, why not use the same principle to hear the tumblers of a safe?
I'm replaying TDS and noticed they didn't get the best out of the climbing gloves. I noticed quite a few "large" fireplaces that could have used the chimney as a sneaky "vertical" route. You wouldn't need climbing gloves to do this, nor would you expect to find ladders (in all but the largest flues. Maybe more of these.

jtr7
20th Jun 2009, 09:16
Yep. Had those in the older titles. Thanks for the clarification on objects hindering speed. There's still the disparity about the weight he has on him, and picking something up that's lighter than all that, but it's more intuitive to expect some realism when you can see the object in front of you. I was surprised he could lift those boulders in the older titles with no effort at all, let alone run at full speed. I wonder why carrying the bodies and holding the sword were the only things that slowed him down, not including drawing the bow while moving.

Flashart
20th Jun 2009, 12:43
I don't see it necessarily as an issue of weight, more like being "hampered" by having both hands full and trying to be more careful.
With regards to his gear/ loot I DO have issues with the AMOUNT of gear he can have, but not the weight. (I like the "limited quiver" idea)
Likewise the loot, trying to imagine anyone trying to move silently with a bag of 20 candlesticks is slightly silly, but I'd rather that than have him try to frob a lifesize marble bust and a grand piano.
I know they did they chimney thing in T1/T2 I just thought they'd have made more of it in TDS because of the shortage of vertical movement.
Another thought I had was keeping the "Wall-hug" but rather than rendering you completely invisible, have it only really of use as a way to hide behind curtains, tapestries, in vines and ivy, and possibly full wall height shadow.
I'd happily take this as an option instead of my other suggestion of the "go prone" move.

TheEye
4th Jul 2009, 11:13
like in the previous games, duh

jtr7
4th Jul 2009, 11:39
...........................

esme
4th Jul 2009, 11:54
like in the previous games, duhyeah, like in the previous games, that this will be a sequel to i.e. more of the same thief universe with a few novel additions to hopefully improve the experience and a new story otherwise it's not a sequel it's a different game

gryphos
9th Jul 2009, 02:30
I will note here my thought that the basic question that the devs and fans should ask before thinking out T4 is "If I took T1 & T2, kept all the great things that worked and made it revolutionary, and then looked really critically at it and asked what didn't work because of system limitations etc. what would the warts be that can be removed to make game play better?" Apropos to the stealth issue, what would be sensible additions in the spirit of the game given more capabilities in programming and hardware now? I would say power-up items are NOT the direction we want to go (like a camera hack eye, or IR eye, or loot-glint eye). I also think there are other games with stealth elements that can be learned from to make T4 better. What can be learned from Splinter Cell, say, or Commandos? Also, what can be cribbed from great heist films like Italian Job, or Ocean's 11, or Thomas Crown Affair that can be done with current capabilities that would have fit in the old games but wasn't?

*I just thought it might be an interesting dynamic to exploit in a mission, (if you had to replace a crate of loot with a dummy crate). It's like the "ear to the door" move, why not use the same principle to hear the tumblers of a safe?
>>I like that idea. Logical, stealthy, SIMPLE addition to the gameplay and plotting.

*I'm replaying TDS and noticed they didn't get the best out of the climbing gloves. I noticed quite a few "large" fireplaces that could have used the chimney as a sneaky "vertical" route.
>> Verticle space was sorely deficient in T3 IMO. Compared to say, The Bone Hoard, or Life of the Party.

*I don't see it necessarily as an issue of weight, more like being "hampered" by having both hands full and trying to be more careful.
>>I agree with this. I can handwave Garrett being really strong for his size, and thus not worrying about weight issues. But though jtr noted that G could climb ropes with boulders and bodies, this was IMO one of the warts of the first two. I have actually drilled fireman's carries for combat situations and while I exploited it in play, I don't buy it. However, Kidnap was a fine example of how "stealing" a living body is a great plot element, so WITH some refinement, this is a good game play mechanic.

*With regards to his gear/ loot I DO have issues with the AMOUNT of gear he can have, but not the weight. (I like the "limited quiver" idea)
>> AGREEAGREEAGREE. As has been noted elsewhere, too much stuff takes away tension because you don't have to worry about running out in a jam. Commandos was a game that didn't have encumberance, but did have inventory limits so you had to plan more carefully what to take and what to leave. It added a level of tension when the bad guys were coming quick.

Humphery Kynaston
30th Jul 2009, 19:52
""ear to the door" move, why not use the same principle to hear the tumblers of a safe?"
Safes Don't have tumblers they have discs with little cheese block sections cut out of the they actually look like a bunch of little gears on a axle their called gates and the "teeth" are called false gates they say some people can tell the difference by sound but I've been trying to learn for years and it's almost impossible even if you can do it, it's super tedious for a three disc it can take 5-10 minutes

Humphery Kynaston
30th Jul 2009, 19:55
I would love to see Garret get a bit more agile he always had issues climbing I'm not talking parkour exactly but being able to climb vines and pipes and the like would be very nice after all when I think thief I think access and what better way to get access then go where normal people can't go love the rooftop level in TMA and the thieves highway in TDS

jtr7
30th Jul 2009, 23:25
Yes. I think we all want that. Smoother and less restrictive. He should be able to grab what any human can grab when it's obviously not a stretch. Since none of the games let him climb past a two-inch ledge or window sill without stepping back and jumping, I wonder how hard it is to code?

Vae
31st Jul 2009, 00:20
Yes, this would be good, along with being able to climb trees as well.

jtr7
31st Jul 2009, 00:24
Instead of with rope arrows, like before, and somewhat smaller trees too. Of course, this means either Euphoria-like physics for the leaves and other branches, obvious climbing sections, or no collision with leaves.

Flashart
31st Jul 2009, 07:58
There's two possible ways Garrett could climb, if he used "The Gloves" in theory he can climb "anywhere", or at least any flat brick surface. Without the gloves, he has to use "something", either static like a drainpipe or vine, or "portable" like a rope arrow or grappling hook.
The gloves give a "supposed" large amount of freedom (but not in TDS), but maybe too much?
Using "something" means only climbing in specific places, and sometimes having the frustration of seeing something that should be climbable, but isn't (Trees perhaps)

Pyronox
23rd Apr 2010, 13:30
Hey, me again. Been a while.

Let's see:

Splinter Cell is officially on life support now that we all know Conviction sucks ass.

Thief looks like the last hope for stealth.

Discuss.

Platinumoxicity
23rd Apr 2010, 15:54
Thief 4 is not the last hope for stealth. I'm starting on making a stealth game with my classmates. It's about stealthy space thieves. :D We're probably going to use the newest Unreal devkit.
http://www.cubeupload.com/files/thumbs/th.3cd200blackcov3.png (http://www.cubeupload.com/img/3cd200blackcov3.png)
ignore my pompous self-advertising...

Lady_Of_The_Vine
23rd Apr 2010, 18:47
Thief 4 is not the last hope for stealth. I'm starting on making a stealth game with my classmates. It's about stealthy space thieves. :D We're probably going to use the newest Unreal devkit.
http://www.cubeupload.com/files/thumbs/th.3cd200blackcov3.png (http://www.cubeupload.com/img/3cd200blackcov3.png)
ignore my pompous self-advertising...

This sounds awesome. Keep us up-to-date with progress. :thumb:

Rieknor
24th Apr 2010, 07:11
He should probably take his thiefy gear, start planning a mission and steal some stuff, like he always does. After the job the keepers would come to his apartment and say: "But Garrett, you are supposed to be the one true keeper now, you're supposed to act like it too." And Garrett would answer: "Like hell I should! Go taff yourselves, I've got bills to pay."

And Garrett would also have let the young girl go, because he wouldn't want the kind of responsibility that he had, for her. Also, because he has more important things to do.

Sorry if I'm so fundamentally against Garrett's transformation, but I just think that Garrett is better than that. He doesn't need to be transformed to some Jedi Master. He's perfect the way he is.

Exactly.
In my opinion, the only diference bitween the old Garret and the "new" is now he calls himself a Keeper.

(And i dont think "he dont want that kind of responsibility" is a good escuse to give up with the girl)

Rieknor
24th Apr 2010, 07:18
He doesn't have superpowers if you don't take his super sneaking into account.
"The true keeper"-status that he has now means that he doesn't need superpowers or prophecies of glyphs to change the world. Or at least I believe it's so, and the other alternative would be a very cheesy and lame plot device with no imagination utilized whatsoever.

Agree.

The only power that Garret could have is some kind of door glyph or something like TDS but, as we know, Garret is the kind of person who worth of himself(damn i dont know if i say it right)

Platinumoxicity
24th Apr 2010, 07:21
(And i dont think "he dont want that kind of responsibility" is a good escuse to give up with the girl)

Sorry about the bad grammar on the sentence you quoted... I think my original idea was that if Garrett really is a doomsday-magnet like what have been proven 3 times now, he isn't sadistic enough to want to transfer that kind of horror to a little kid just because the kid ran into him on a street. Imagine if you had AIDS and were always carrying a hypodermic needle with your blood in it, pricking any little kids you happen to walk by. That's the same thing.

"Hi, little 6-year-old kid. I'm on 4 different organized crime gangs' official #1 on their hit lists. Do you want to die too? Is tomorrow okay?" :scratch:

jtr7
24th Apr 2010, 12:01
We're not making excuses for him to give up the girl. We're saying he never took her in to begin with. Thirty ambiguous seconds of one cutscene does not invalidate the other 99.99% of the entire trilogy. You can't take the Garrett you see in that moment out of the complete context. Worst of all, it's cheap, easy, and garbage storytelling to break his character that way.

Rieknor
25th Apr 2010, 14:50
Sorry about the bad grammar on the sentence you quoted... I think my original idea was that if Garrett really is a doomsday-magnet like what have been proven 3 times now, he isn't sadistic enough to want to transfer that kind of horror to a little kid just because the kid ran into him on a street. Imagine if you had AIDS and were always carrying a hypodermic needle with your blood in it, pricking any little kids you happen to walk by. That's the same thing.

"Hi, little 6-year-old kid. I'm on 4 different organized crime gangs' official #1 on their hit lists. Do you want to die too? Is tomorrow okay?" :scratch:

jajaja, okey i got it, and you guys left pretty clear that you dont want the girl and, aparently, i cant argue against that.

I think that the girl shouldt be mentioned AT ALL.

(but if you are okey with the girl making an aparience as an "extra", let it be)
I said "extra" to the people dont give her much importance)

Neb
25th Apr 2010, 20:12
Thief 4 is not the last hope for stealth. I'm starting on making a stealth game with my classmates. It's about stealthy space thieves. :D

I always liked the idea of a stealth game where you infiltrate enemy spaceships using a tiny limpet-like craft that can escape radar and latch onto their hulls.

A good idea for a level: Spaceship graveyard in zero gravity where you glide between shadows cast by a nearby sun.

Another good idea: Massive building projects in space are undertaken by nanobots that build around a holographic blueprint projection. A hologram of unknown origin is found, and then built out of curiosity. What comes out is a bizarre planetoid that may be a museum, entertainment, scientific experiment, or something else.

s guy
25th Apr 2010, 21:31
This turned from a completely stealth gameplay thread to an almost completely plotline thread! :p

Platinumoxicity
25th Apr 2010, 21:48
Another good idea: Massive building projects in space are undertaken by nanobots that build around a holographic blueprint projection. A hologram of unknown origin is found, and then built out of curiosity. What comes out is a bizarre planetoid that may be a museum, entertainment, scientific experiment, or something else.

Our solar system in the game will be a dystopian violent wilderness, not the pinnacle of human technological advancements. Only the dead have seen the end of war. Thanks for ideas though. :)

Anyway this thread is not about my game. If you want to know more or if you have more ideas PM is the answer. ;)

Rieknor
26th Apr 2010, 03:17
Im not cuite shure about the point of this thread but i think this game should be 100% stealth.
If you get caught, you will die. Of course, you got a tiny chance to skape.(using flashbombs or defending yourself 'till got the oportunity to run away)(and allways depending on the dificult)

Akash
26th Apr 2010, 23:10
This thread has some really cool and new ideas that could innovate the thief stealth gameplay. I have been going through some old posts at other sites about the the original thief stealth system made by looking glass. I had some additions to the one that they used. Prolly will take a day or two to refine it but will have it up here soon :)

GabSoh1
14th May 2010, 06:56
hey dogsolitude_uk

did you get that from life of brian lol