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morty343
12th May 2009, 00:10
That's my first request..

GmanPro
12th May 2009, 01:01
I'm with you

sgt_geist
12th May 2009, 02:40
Ya I agree %100... It was fun ti pick up zombie heads and throw them at things for distractions..

Espion
14th May 2009, 12:07
Hi guys,

I'm sure this question has been asked before but I'm wondering why so many people hate the undead levels in the first game?

For me they were some of the best levels, and definitely some of the most memorable moments. I remember crapping myself when the first corpse leapt to it's feet. Panicking when it didn't go down from a blackjack attack (obviously but I thought I'd try it anyway). Crapping myself again when it sprang back to life after a sword attack.

Suddenly I couldn't clear an area of it's "guards" reliably and be sure that they'd remain incapacitated. It created a very real aprehension and weariness as I played.

Then of course there was the satisfaction of finding the holy water fonts and finally blowing the damn things to pieces :D

The sense of forboding and dread that the Bonehoard, the Old Quarter and the Cathederal created was a very tense kind of immersion that I think came in perfect doses in the first game. The relief of escaping with my life was a lot more profound.

I'm not saying I prefer playing against the undead, just that they provided a very enjoyable alternative to the guards. Would one or two levels really hurt so much in the new game? ;)

Was it purely that they kept coming back to life that bugged everyone? (Looking at the "Should Guards Wake Up" thread, it would seem so).

~E

KharN
14th May 2009, 12:26
i jsut hate the undead period..

I mean dont get me wrong im a huge fan of the azombie thing.. But its everywhere now these days so im hoping they keep a more "realisitc" element to the new Thief game..

But on the first game.. I just thing it was a silly addition.. The game had a great storyline and excellent to play then all of a sudden your confronted by the undead.. was a tad off.. Yea there were other elements of the game that were "unrealistic" but the undead was a tad to far for me.. i still lvoe theg ame though i jsut think it coulda done without them..

LPS
14th May 2009, 12:56
Zombies are a good thing but only if they are like Alfa Romeo 8C - limited series ;) Too much of them and mission will juts become boring and easy mostly because they are very stupid and slow. There should be only a few of them, hidden in unsuspected places, sleeping in the dark waiting for you to pass by so they can then wake up, grab you from behind and make you scream like a little girl ;)

BTW - hello everybody :)

Direlord
14th May 2009, 17:37
i actually disliked the undead for the most part because they were so hard to take down and stay down. It seemed a lot of the time you were just running away. i remember one time i forgot what mission in t1 i had lots of zombies after me so i went into this circular type area that was a pit with a small beam leading to a ladder probably the way out for when you won (it's been a long time). There were probably 2-3 zombies on the bridge and several around the edges. Since i was on the ladder they just stood there in agro mode. 2 flashbombs later i was just running away.

I thought T2 had the best for the undead small sections or maybe 1 mission of undead.

So don't get rid of the undead I especially liked the haunts or the puppets from Cradle in T3 but i do think they should be minimal small sections of missions catacombs, small cemetarys and maybe 1 mission where you mostly face them.

HellionKal
14th May 2009, 17:47
Exactly, small haunts (like the Hammerite skeletons patrolling the catacombs of the Mechanist Cathedral in Thief 2, for example; how dreadful was that "rustling chains" noise they made?") would work extremely better than entire missions dedicated to them (Bonehoard, Old City).

Lady_Of_The_Vine
14th May 2009, 17:50
The Undead are essential to the fear-factor element of the game, that's my short 'n' sweet answer. :)

Garrett21
14th May 2009, 21:42
I love the undead some really great FM's consist of a lot of undead we need a form of fear in the Thief games they have always been there and should remain besides all ya had to do in older Thieves was knock em down and move on or outrun em

Hypevosa
14th May 2009, 21:51
The reason people hated the undead, was the fact that it turned from a stealth based thieving game, to an undead fighting game. There should be more genuine thievery in a thief game than scaving the ruins of a tomb or a zombie infested city or citadel. Also, they removed the knockout component which was so integral to the game, now you had to fight, and Garrett is not exactly a paladin who's seasoned in combat with the undead.

Undead should not be removed completely, because they add more flavor to the game. However they should not be one of the most common enemies in the game.

GmanPro
14th May 2009, 21:55
I think they were used too frequently in Dark Project. And probably not enough in Metal Age. The undead are good for a scare every now and again. So I say they stay.

Warcus
14th May 2009, 22:07
I LOVED the Zombie-missions! They were so scary!

DarthEnder
15th May 2009, 01:26
I thought there use in T2 was perfect. There were no levels devoted to the undead, they were always just "oh, I gotta jump though that necromancer's tower, there's gonna be a couple undead in there" or "Oh, I gotta go down into the family crypt, there's gonna be a couple undead down there".

It's as other people said, neutralizing them for good takes up too many resources or makes too much noise. At least, the zombies are. So when there's only a couple in a level, its not so bad, but when the whole level is zombies, you run out of stuff to take care of them all 5 level into the mission.

Haunts actually don't bother me at all. They are creepy as hell, but you can just use a fully charged backstab and kill them in one hit. And they don't get back up again. In that sense, a Haunt is really no different from a guard with a heavy helm.

Puppets though...**** Puppets. Take everything that's bad about zombies and then make them 3 times as hard to kill....


Maybe if holy water was like it was in T3, but cheaper, or if fire arrows were cheap and didn't explode, I'd be okay with zombies. If I could just backstab a zombie, and then while he's on the ground, just pop him with a fire arrow or holy water to destroy his body, and it didn't freakin explode...then zombies would be all right.

It's like, I'd probably hate Iron Beasts too as enemies, because you can't knock them out and killing them involves making a lot of noise, except that they can be taken out with a couple water arrows to the back. Water arrows that are cheap and common. If zombies had a similar inexpensive weakness, I wouldn't mind them either.


Like I mentioned in the gear thread. If T4 used a kind of "make your own items" system where you combined items on the fly. You have your arrows, arrows are, what, 25g? Then you'd have water crystals. Normally 50g, but charge 25g for them now since you have to pay for the arrows separately. Then sell one use vials of holy water for 50g.

Then once your in the level, you bring up your inventory and combine an arrow, a water crystal and a vial of holy water to make a holy water arrow. So for 100g you have an arrow that should take out a zombie in one shot, for good. And no more exploding zombies. Have the zombie ignite with a blue flame and burn until it's a charred corpse and not getting back up again.

If that was a viable option, I wouldn't hate zombies so much.

ZylonBane
15th May 2009, 01:36
The reason people hated the undead, was the fact that it turned from a stealth based thieving game, to an undead fighting game.
Yeah... for players who suck. Undead AIs can be sneaked around exactly like human AIs, and the zombies are so freaking slow that you can leave them in the dust just by walking away from them.

Hypevosa
15th May 2009, 01:48
Yeah... for players who suck. Undead AIs can be sneaked around exactly like human AIs, and the zombies are so freaking slow that you can leave them in the dust just by walking away from them.

Yes, you could sneak around them, and you could out run them, but only in the open corridors like that of the tombs where the horn of quintus was in thief the dark project... in other scenarios we also had ghost mages thrown at us, or narrow corridors with lots of light and undead roaming around. Ghosts that could throw magic hammers at you, and would persue you endlessly, paralyzing you into a corner or you'd die in 2 shots. Hammerhaunts they at least usually had em in a place you could knock em out if you were clever. Except when going after that one gem in the same cave, where the lights would turn on instantly and spawn a hammer haunt and you were on tile.... that was a ***** move... but luckily fire arrows are awesome. :D

DarthEnder
15th May 2009, 02:10
I liked the pirate ghost in T2 on Markham's island also. It's like, even though you can't really sneak past him, or stealth kill him, he almost feels like a boss and you can have a cool swordfight with him, and it's not an issue because it's completely impossible to alert anyone else during that fight because your in this little underwater cave.

Limesneeker
15th May 2009, 02:24
The reason people hated the undead, was the fact that it turned from a stealth based thieving game, to an undead fighting game. There should be more genuine thievery in a thief game than scaving the ruins of a tomb or a zombie infested city or citadel. Also, they removed the knockout component which was so integral to the game, now you had to fight, and Garrett is not exactly a paladin who's seasoned in combat with the undead.

Undead should not be removed completely, because they add more flavor to the game. However they should not be one of the most common enemies in the game.

I think I have a cool idea for that:

what about creating a type-of-blackjack-tool which works for undead? Then we could have both: scary undead but instead of undead-fighting action we would still have sneaking-gameplay...of course, the irrational behaviour would make it much more challenging/frightening....

what do you think?

GmanPro
15th May 2009, 02:26
Backstabbing zombies worked well enough in all the games.

Hypevosa
15th May 2009, 02:41
the holy blackjack of soul cleansing eh? immediately removes evil spirits from a body... I like it, but it doesn't sound like somethin you should have from the get go...

DarthEnder
15th May 2009, 03:00
Backstabbing zombies worked well enough in all the games.Till they get back up again 10 seconds later.

Like I said, if I could just burn the body with a flare or cheap vial of holy water, it would be all good.

GmanPro
15th May 2009, 03:01
They only get back up if you make too much noise. Otherwise they act like a sleeping npc

DarthEnder
15th May 2009, 03:16
I always blackjack sleeping npcs...

Hypevosa
15th May 2009, 03:22
I always made sure they were sound asleep too Darth :D

Guard be gone, apply directly to the forehead!

DF-HellFier
15th May 2009, 03:55
A little survey I've been make to help developers and concentrate all our character & location "Wishes" in T4: http://thiefvote.t35.com - All voter's have multiple options & vote's to vote for them, but you can vote only once! So think what you want, and check boxes that you choosen...

1N54N3
15th May 2009, 10:35
I'm wondering why so many people hate the undead levels in the first game?

People didn't hate the undead in the first game(s) because they sucked, people hated the undead because they were so well done (especially in Shalebrook Cradle or whatever it's called in TDS). I really don't think any other game series like this has ever captured the creepiness nor the actual "immortality" of undead like the Thief series has. That just goes to show how/why Looking Glass (And later Ion Storm which I believe hired most of the Looking Glass team after they shut down) were such great Devs back in the day.



For me they were some of the best levels, and definitely some of the most memorable moments.

You're right, they are :)

Tatyana's Flowers
15th May 2009, 13:33
Love the undead...they scare me too much :)

BoldEnglishman
15th May 2009, 13:52
I also loved the undead levels, as it forced the player to think on their feet, to adapt. Regarding the first game, you can apply the same strategy to almost every single enemy:

- Human guards, knockout
- Servants, knockout
- Ape Beasts, knockout
- Craymen, knockout
- Mages, knockout
- Burricks, knockout
- Apparitions, backstab
- Hammer Haunts, backstab

The strategy is exactly the same. You blackjack your first guard, and then your set. The only real difficulty in games like Thief II was probably the distance between you and the AI and what sort of floor you were crossing... and even then, you can run around and make as much noise as you want, have 5 or 7 guards following you... then just flashbomb them and knock every single one of them out.

Yet suddenly, with zombies, players were forced to adapt. This strategy, which works for everyone else apart from Fire Elementals and the Trickster himself, will no longer work, and part of what made the zombies so interesting is the fact that sometimes you will no longer have the 'comfort' of being by yourself. Just as people knock out sleeping NPCs, it gives them that 'comfort factor', whereby once all the guards and such have been disposed of, you can exhale, relax, do whatever you want basically. Yet, if you do not have the proper resources, the zombies take this away - keep you on your feet. I thought one of the things that made Thief so great was the tension, and the zombies certainly added to that tension!

Speaking of equipment, I was always able to dispose of every zombie I encountered in the first game. Just gotta make sure you use your Holy Water at the right time, then just blow up the rest with Fire and Flash.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
15th May 2009, 16:00
Yeah... for players who suck. Undead AIs can be sneaked around exactly like human AIs, and the zombies are so freaking slow that you can leave them in the dust just by walking away from them.

QFT. :cool:

ZylonBane
15th May 2009, 18:10
They only get back up if you make too much noise. Otherwise they act like a sleeping npc
Proximity, not noise. Lure them somewhere out-of-the-way, then knock them down and go about your business.

Pangalactic
15th May 2009, 18:34
My beef with TDP's undead treatment wasn't that it had 'undead levels' so to speak...but just too many of them, and all bunched together. When a thief game has two undead levels in a row you start to get bored with it.

I've always thought the way the undead were utilized in T2 was much better as well...but I still think that T4 should have a good undead level or two for old time's sake...they were a lot of fun in their own way. As long as you still feel like you're a Thief, not an exorcist. Maybe a good treasure-hunting booby-traped Bonehoard-esque level, and one horror Cradle-esque level. Definitely not one after the other though.



I liked the pirate ghost in T2 on Markham's island also. It's like, even though you can't really sneak past him, or stealth kill him, he almost feels like a boss and you can have a cool swordfight with him, and it's not an issue because it's completely impossible to alert anyone else during that fight because your in this little underwater cave.

That was my favorite undead moment the entire Thief series!

Iceblade
15th May 2009, 18:49
Not in T1....all zombies go done but don't stay that way. T2 FMs, though, I would use this tactic to great effect...esp. in the Trickster's castle. Just a little aside, how conservative were you guys with resources. A lot of times, I would try to keep 2 or 3 zombies with one mine or firearrow if possible. Three for two holywater arrow specials worked great. Flashbombs weren't so easy, though. I guess for those have two or three ready and gather around 3-5 zombies and a haunt or two and drop the bomb(s). Clean out the rest with fire or water then. I love being Rambo Thief.....come on Craymen and treebeasts I'll take you on. Seriously, I have taken on two or three craymen at once...what dimwits and a few times I have been successful (ie no damage) taken on treebeasts from the front (one-on-one mind you). I played too much of cardia's missions and undead T2 missions...gave me made skills (okay I keep behind the enemy most of the time when fighting alerted enemies)

MasterTaffer
20th May 2009, 05:43
I've always loved the undead and found them an essential part of the Thief universe. I've never understood why everyone hates them so much, especially since levels featuring undead enemies were some of the best missions in the series (IE, Return to the Haunted Cathedral, The Cradle.) and fan missions (Bloodstone Prison, The Inverted Manse).

DarthEnder
20th May 2009, 06:56
I'll tell you this, I hated the Bonehoard so much that it made me quit playing Thief the first time I tried to play through the game.

I didn't pick it up again until after I played through Thief 2 a few years later.

That goddamn giant chamber at the bottom with like the 15 zombies in it...man...there's just not enough holy water and water arrows in the world to make me not hate that place.

MasterTaffer
20th May 2009, 07:00
I'll tell you this, I hated the Bonehoard so much that it made me quit playing Thief the first time I tried to play through the game.

I didn't pick it up again until after I played through Thief 2 a few years later.

That goddamn giant chamber at the bottom with like the 15 zombies in it...man...there's just not enough holy water and water arrows in the world to make me not hate that place.

Just run around the zombies. They're slow, stupid and seem to give up chase faster than any other creature in the game.

GmanPro
20th May 2009, 07:09
I also hated that level. But not because of zombies. That place was just a pain to navigate. Just like half the levels in Dark Project.

Metal Age was a vast improvement to the level design.

TeoRocker
20th May 2009, 07:51
The undead are awesome. Personally, whenever I finished a "scary" level I always felt relieved and glad I got rid of it. But that was, in a weird way, a great thing.

They also offered variety in the gameplay, breaking the monotony.

Jables_Kage
20th May 2009, 08:07
the zombies where ace in TDS especially the sound they made! creepy...

MasterTaffer
20th May 2009, 08:11
The zombies in Deadly Shadows kinda let me down visually. They just looked like starved elderly folk rather than walking, rotting corpses.

Espion
20th May 2009, 08:17
The zombies in Deadly Shadows kinda let me down visually. They just looked like starved elderly folk rather than walking, rotting corpses.

Lol... Maybe they were, you evil S.O.B. ;)

MasterTaffer
20th May 2009, 08:18
Lol... Maybe they were, you evil S.O.B. ;)

Ah never touched em, consarnit!

Skarsnik
20th May 2009, 09:00
- Apparitions, backstab


Or you could just sneak up on them and blackjack them to death since they never got the time to recover..

MasterTaffer
20th May 2009, 09:11
Or you could just sneak up on them and blackjack them to death since they never got the time to recover..

Talk about beating a dead ...Hammer...

Psychomorph
20th May 2009, 16:43
I hated the undead missions in the thief games, but I like the conept of the dead, spooky stuff.

Reason I really hated the zombies was the inability to incapacitate them, seriously, one slash and the head is off and if the creatures body still lives, it will helplessly bounce around on the ground, like a stranded fish (you need a head to keep balance when walking on two legs).
Weapons must be much less effective against the undead (feed it with arrows and cuts and it still walks), but affecting it by removing the head, limbs or breaking bones MUST affect it very much, it will not be able to walk anymore, will crawl, or do whatever it is still capable of, but not ressurect totally unharmed (unless by invulnerability magic).

Skaruts
20th May 2009, 17:08
I looooved the undead in T1 (cant remember them from T2). I loved the way they were almost silent, except when they would talk to each other in ancient english. That totally made it up for me.

I think, for a new sequel, the undead should be mantained. The undead are always a part of any medievil and somewhat fantastic story. They are a part of a tradition, in both terms of storyline and character's cultures. Plus they are a good way of resting from the monotonous city watch and guards.

But I would prefer if there would be just one or two main-plot missions with them, and some more optional ones with them, to make up for who likes it and who doesn't. Who likes it will certainly be wanting to explore that basement, catacomb or ancient fortress, even if it's optional. For who doesn't like it, they would go through 1 mission with a non-tiredsome amount of undead and dificulty, and be off with it in no time.

I loved them all, except in T3. The hammer's ghosts from T1 were simply amazingly fun, scary and memorable,... the growling zombies in T3 weren't that much. Imo.
Probly cuz I think ghosts are more scarier and less cliché than zombies. And probly cuz ghosts can die. They are already.

Maethius
20th May 2009, 17:41
I think the undead added an element to the game, not just as a threat undeflatable by normal means, but also to the storyline. The implementation of the undead in T2X was great... I loved that you could cut them apart, not only for effect, but because you could limit the danger somewhat. I would say keep them, but refine them. Place undead where it makes sense, use them to augment fear and tell the story, and perhaps vary them a bit. Skeletons have a place, zombies another, haunts and spirits can all be useful. A spirit would be more frightening if it wasn't restricted by walls and doors, or it illuminated the dark. What if the undead didn't rely on sight in some cases? Or if the more wounded Garrett would attract ghouls or zombies from a greater distance than an less wounded Garrett.

huzi73
20th May 2009, 23:37
MAKE A POLL!ZOMFG!The entire concept behind the undead,was to unnerve the player,make him feel vulnerable,outnumbered,alone,afraid,especially in the Bonehoard and Old city,the feeling that you were in an ancient,forgotten place.Making you feel like you just wanted to get out of there!Oh the sense of relief I felt when I heard the voice of the first Hammerite in TDP!CIVILISATION!WHEW!Thank god im out of the zombie area!Id like at least 20% of my mission quota to be undead based.(slightly less than TDP,but MUCH more than TMA/TDS).

morty343
21st May 2009, 03:46
For sure. If they changed it in T3 due to a violence rating thing, I say who cares. They'll still make huge $ anyway, and won't look like they rolled over. It was such a disappointment the first time I watched a zombie "dissolve" in T3.

hellwalker
21st May 2009, 04:13
Blowing zombies are classic, they must return in Thi4f

1N54N3
21st May 2009, 05:48
Or you could just sneak up on them and blackjack them to death since they never got the time to recover..

For real, we all know undead take extra bludgeoning damage anyway :D

ToMegaTherion
21st May 2009, 09:18
The main problem is that the supernatural levels mainly had pretty dubious design that didn't fit so well with the Thief concept. It's worth noting that the levels of this type that seem most popular are Return to the Cathedral and Shalebridge Cradle... the two levels of this type that had "proper" Thief level design.

morty343
21st May 2009, 16:29
All right, apparently some mod, in his infinite wisdom, exercised the authority to merge a thread I started, titled "Make the zombies blow up again!!!" with this semi-related thread.

If this is the way the Eidos mods operate, don't be surprised if the developers get a garbled picture of what Thief fans valued in the former games, and what sort of changes/additions could make the game even better.

MasterTaffer
30th May 2009, 20:39
All right, apparently some mod, in his infinite wisdom, exercised the authority to merge a thread I started, titled "Make the zombies blow up again!!!" with this semi-related thread.

If this is the way the Eidos mods operate, don't be surprised if the developers get a garbled picture of what Thief fans valued in the former games, and what sort of changes/additions could make the game even better.

You're just a cheery peach, ain'tcha?

Apparently there was an Undead level intended for Thief II Gold before Looking Glass closed its doors and never released it. It would have featured the Necromancers, and evil offshoot of the Hand Brotherhood and feature some old and new undead critters to continue unnerve the player. Would have been an awesome level.

RoyalTaffer
30th May 2009, 20:59
Hi guys,

For me they were some of the best levels, and definitely some of the most memorable moments. I remember crapping myself when the first corpse leapt to it's feet. Panicking when it didn't go down from a blackjack attack (obviously but I thought I'd try it anyway). Crapping myself again when it sprang back to life after a sword attack.

Suddenly I couldn't clear an area of it's "guards" reliably and be sure that they'd remain incapacitated. It created a very real aprehension and weariness as I played.

Then of course there was the satisfaction of finding the holy water fonts and finally blowing the damn things to pieces :D

~E

Wow... You just made me realise how damn much I loved those levels. Cheers!:D

morty343
31st May 2009, 02:21
Wow... You just made me realise how damn much I loved those levels. Cheers!:D

Yup. No "Undead Discrimination" from me. I LIKE their role in the Thief series. Which is why I was annoyed that my original thread, requesting to bring back explosive zombie deaths, was rolled into this thread which seems to be about re-evaluating their place in the Thief world as a whole.

Bottom line, I really disliked the lame "dissolving" zombies in T3. But in general, the Thief undead levels are some of the most nerve-rattling I've ever played, and are necessary to the game.

Cheers.

Vae
31st May 2009, 05:32
Yup. No "Undead Discrimination" from me. I LIKE their role in the Thief series. Which is why I was annoyed that my original thread, requesting to bring back explosive zombie deaths, was rolled into this thread which seems to be about re-evaluating their place in the Thief world as a whole.

Bottom line, I really disliked the lame "dissolving" zombies in T3. But in general, the Thief undead levels are some of the most nerve-rattling I've ever played, and are necessary to the game.

Cheers.

I couldn't agree more.

The Undead are GREAT (except for T3 zombies). Make them unexpected and varied and you will get some of the best THIEF experiences ever.

MasterTaffer
31st May 2009, 05:35
I often find it funny that some people complain about the undead because they require different tactics to deal with than humans, but at the same time will praise Karras's robots for the exact same reason they condemn undead....

Vae
31st May 2009, 05:54
Yes, the inconsistency is a disturbing dichotomy ...ah the uninitiated. ;)

MasterTaffer
31st May 2009, 05:59
The constant kvetching does grow tiresome after awhile.

Vae
31st May 2009, 07:06
Indeed it does...but let us keep an eye on the greater purpose and forgive them, for they know not what they do.

DarthEnder
31st May 2009, 19:40
I derive great amusement from the manner in which the two of you apply your online thesauruses in an attempt to appear superior to the other posters here.
Apparently there was an Undead level intended for Thief II Gold before Looking Glass closed its doors and never released it. It would have featured the Necromancers, and evil offshoot of the Hand Brotherhood and feature some old and new undead critters to continue unnerve the player. Would have been an awesome level.That actually does sound pretty cool. Mainly because such a level would be a mix of human and undead opponents instead of just thirty zombies.

MasterTaffer
31st May 2009, 19:45
I derive great amusement from the manner in which the two of you apply your online thesauruses in an attempt to appear superior to the other posters here.

As a matter of fact, my New Years resolution this year was to learn a new word daily. I just like the English vocabulary, and can assure you it has nothing to do with me wanting to feel "superior."

It's actually been quite fun so far. You should give it a try.

DarthEnder
31st May 2009, 20:02
Yes, expanding your vocabulary is a perfectly noble goal but I hardly think that the forum needs to watch Vae and yourself jerk each other off over it over the course of several content-free posts while acting smug to no one in particular.

MasterTaffer
31st May 2009, 20:06
Yes, expanding your vocabulary is a perfectly noble goal but I hardly think that the forum needs to watch Vae and yourself jerk each other off over it over the course of several content-free posts while acting smug to no one in particular.

And it also doesn't need multiple posts of you argueing that we have a false sense of superiority. If you've got a beef with me or Vae, take it to private messages. Otherwise, you can just deal with like a sensible person and ignore it.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
31st May 2009, 20:45
Those brain eating shufflers need to stay down where they belong. I can't understand a word they say with that "ugghghooooohhughhhhh" rot-face talk.

At least they don't try to drink from our fountains.

MasterTaffer
31st May 2009, 20:57
Those brain eating shufflers need to stay down where they belong. I can't understand a word they say with that "ugghghooooohhughhhhh" rot-face talk.

At least they don't try to drink from our fountains.

Sure, regulate them to second class citizens. But one day, they will have a leader and you will see that zombies and humans were created equal!

And I STILL won't drink from the same fountains as them. That's just disgusting.

Vae
31st May 2009, 21:26
Anyway, I am personally for equal rights for the undead as a matter of social justice. :rolleyes:

DarthEnder
31st May 2009, 21:46
And it also doesn't need multiple posts of you argueing that we have a false sense of superiority. If you've got a beef with me or Vae, take it to private messages. Otherwise, you can just deal with like a sensible person and ignore it.The exact same thing could be said for the entire post you just made if you want to play it like that. You are as capable of ignoring my complaining about your ****posting as I am of ignoring your ****posting.

Ravenwood
31st May 2009, 22:06
DarthEnder? Grow up. Honestly.

He said to take it to private messaging, so stop trying to drag this argument out on the forum. Plus, he's showing worlds more maturity than you by expanding his vocabulary past petty cursing.

Vae
31st May 2009, 22:14
DarthEnder? Grow up. Honestly.

He said to take it to private messaging, so stop trying to drag this argument out on the forum. Plus, he's showing worlds more maturity than you by expanding his vocabulary past petty cursing.

Yes DarthEnder, stop posting and go to your room! You can come back when when you start acting like a reasonable adult.

DarthEnder
1st Jun 2009, 01:28
Thank you both for continuing the argument in the forum instead of taking it to PM's like he suggested. I appreciate you invalidating his point for me.

GmanPro
1st Jun 2009, 04:15
Just ignore them. They thrive off of attention

EMCEE
1st Jun 2009, 15:20
I also think that" the golden mean" was found in unpached T2: undeads were only in abandoned places in many levels. So, there wasn't stages full of zombeis, but they were unfogotten and made the game more frighteningly.Maybe it is good to make one level whith a lot of undead (such as ship in T3), but not 2 addict with this))

Taffer17
1st Jun 2009, 20:46
The reason people hated the undead, was the fact that it turned from a stealth based thieving game, to an undead fighting game. There should be more genuine thievery in a thief game than scaving the ruins of a tomb or a zombie infested city or citadel. Also, they removed the knockout component which was so integral to the game, now you had to fight, and Garrett is not exactly a paladin who's seasoned in combat with the undead.

Undead should not be removed completely, because they add more flavor to the game. However they should not be one of the most common enemies in the game.



umm, in down in the bonehoard, you're robbing catacombs. seems like thievery to me. idk but to me, graverobbing is just as much being a thief as picking pockets or breaking into museums or banks. and since ur robbing graves you need some kinda excitement and challenge so in come the undead. the undead fit perfectly into the story. they weren't outta place at all. what was outta place for me was the bank mission in T2. he freakin broke into a giant vault! for a master lockpicker i dont see why he didnt steal as much loot as he possibly could from there. instead he went straight for a recording. i'm not saying not to go for that but the fact that ur in a giant vault and they dont have u rob it, thats a tad bit ridiculous dont you think? as cool as the mechanist storyline was, the fact that garrett played such a big part of it as well as a part with the sheriff seems less like it fits into the storyline and into garrett's personality. at least in T1, he helps out the hammerites because he kinda has a bone to pick with the trickster (you know, plucking out his eye and whatnot). i dont see how the undead DON'T fit into the thief world and storyline as well as anything else does. anyway, they're only 4 missions (if i can remember correctly) in the three games. for those who dont like those kinda missions, so what? i wasnt exactly a fan of the first mission of thief 2 or of the trail of blood mission, or especially the two mask missions towards the end of T2. i still played through them and took them for what they were because i knew other people liked them. and no i would not say to avoid missions like them in the future because they all make thief what it is

Hypevosa
1st Jun 2009, 21:23
"I do agree with the others, that the haunted levels are part of the surrealism of thief, and they are some of the best levels... but there is a point at which it turns from thief to survival horror....

Assuming there are at least 14 fully made levels, I say at least 1 has to be a haunted one like the cradle or bonehoard... but at very MOST 3. Garrett would not be raiding every tomb he heard about. Why risk my ass around a bunch of undead who only stop for good when I blow them up, when I can simply get around incompetent guards who I can knockout with a little tap on the head? I don't think he'd be risking his ass as often as he did in the first game (where he learned he didn't like risking his ass...)"

I copied that from the other thread. I was just explaining the logic I heard from other people, and I understand where they're coming from. I personally didn't mind the undead, I just sympathize with the others saying that he's thief not tomb raider, and should probably be more focused on raiding fat royal peoples' mansions and castles than on finding stuff that dead people used to own.

MasterTaffer
1st Jun 2009, 21:30
"I do agree with the others, that the haunted levels are part of the surrealism of thief, and they are some of the best levels... but there is a point at which it turns from thief to survival horror....

Assuming there are at least 14 fully made levels, I say at least 1 has to be a haunted one like the cradle or bonehoard... but at very MOST 3. Garrett would not be raiding every tomb he heard about. Why risk my ass around a bunch of undead who only stop for good when I blow them up, when I can simply get around incompetent guards who I can knockout with a little tap on the head? I don't think he'd be risking his ass as often as he did in the first game (where he learned he didn't like risking his ass...)"

I copied that from the other thread. I was just explaining the logic I heard from other people, and I understand where they're coming from. I personally didn't mind the undead, I just sympathize with the others saying that he's thief not tomb raider, and should probably be more focused on raiding fat royal peoples' mansions and castles than on finding stuff that dead people used to own.

I'de be curious to know those people's opinions on Karras's robots.

As for Garrett putting himself in harms way, I think that it would depend on what the objective was. Garrett went down in the Bonehoard because he was seriously boned on the Bafford job with Cutty kicking it, and he didn't have any other jobs at the time. The Horn of Quintis was valuable enough to warrent the risk. And with the Haunted Cathedral and Return of the Haunted Cathedral, Garrett saw a serious enough pay in those jobs that he could retire from thievery in general, so he thought the reward outweighed the risk there as well.

The Cradle was entered because Garrett needed information ont eh Hag to save his skin, and this was the only lead he truly had. His life was in danger, the entire Order of the Key out for his blood. He needed the evidence or he wouldn't last long. So I think Garrett will put hismelf in haunted areas if the reward is worth it. If it's profitable, Garrett will be there rubbing his hands greedily.

Hypevosa
1st Jun 2009, 21:35
I'de be curious to know those people's opinions on Karras's robots.

As for Garrett putting himself in harms way, I think that it would depend on what the objective was. Garrett went down in the Bonehoard because he was seriously boned on the Bafford job with Cutty kicking it, and he didn't have any other jobs at the time. The Horn of Quintis was valuable enough to warrent the risk. And with the Haunted Cathedral and Return of the Haunted Cathedral, Garrett saw a serious enough pay in those jobs that he could retire from thievery in general, so he thought the reward outweighed the risk there as well.

The Cradle was entered because Garrett needed information ont eh Hag to save his skin, and this was the only lead he truly had. His life was in danger, the entire Order of the Key out for his blood. He needed the evidence or he wouldn't last long. So I think Garrett will put hismelf in haunted areas if the reward is worth it. If it's profitable, Garrett will be there rubbing his hands greedily.

Agreed, he always has to be going after something that more than warrants the risk of getting zombified.

DarthEnder
2nd Jun 2009, 17:12
umm, in down in the bonehoard, you're robbing catacombs. seems like thievery to me. idk but to me, graverobbing is just as much being a thief as picking pockets or breaking into museums or banks.I think it's more like aggressive archeology.

I mean you could argue that since all the people who owned the things are dead, it's not even really stealing.

GmanPro
2nd Jun 2009, 17:15
Only a master thief could get at the treasure hidden down below. Its dangerous work, but if your good, the rewards are great. Think of it as a challenge. Your not going to let a bunch of dead dudes beat you right?

MasterTaffer
2nd Jun 2009, 18:23
I think it's more like aggressive archeology.

I mean you could argue that since all the people who owned the things are dead, it's not even really stealing.

It could be considered archeology, except he immediately pawn it for some serious coin.

DarthEnder
2nd Jun 2009, 22:41
It could be considered archeology, except he immediately pawn it for some serious coin.I'm betting the Museum gets more of its exhibits from fences than it does from archeological digs.

Hypevosa
2nd Jun 2009, 23:23
I'm betting the Museum gets more of its exhibits from fences than it does from archeological digs.

That wouldn't surprise me at all, and I'd laugh my arse out of my seat if I saw the horn of quintus in the museum of the thief universe... and laugh even harder if I was able to swipe it for a second time!

DarthEnder
2nd Jun 2009, 23:24
Well, you might as well start laughing now because that pretty much IS exactly what happened with The Eye.

MasterTaffer
2nd Jun 2009, 23:27
Well, you might as well start laughing now because that pretty much IS exactly what happened with The Eye.

How the Eye ende dup in the museum was never really established. I would have thought the Eye would have been locked away in a Keeper or Hammr vault after the Dark Project failed, but lo and behold it was in the museum.

On the other side of that, the Kurshok Crown did end up in the museum after Garrett pawned it off. But how Garrett's fence pawns these things off is likely not Garrett's concern. He's just concerned witht he fence paying him.

huzi73
3rd Jun 2009, 12:20
How the Eye ended up in the museum was never really established. I would have thought the Eye would have been locked away in a Keeper or Hammr vault after the Dark Project failed, but lo and behold it was in the museum.

On the other side of that, the Kurshok Crown did end up in the museum after Garrett pawned it off. But how Garrett's fence pawns these things off is likely not Garrett's concern. He's just concerned witht he fence paying him.

My biggest gripe with TDS,was that in making Gamall such an epic badass,they used artifacts,the eye being one of them,as weapons being created for the sole purpose of one day defeating the Gamall abomination.so in theory,the other 4 artifacts wield just as much power as the eye,and this sucks because it totally watered down the ''power'' which I always imagined the eye to have.It basically made the Pagans and Hammers some sort of offshoot with no real background since their most precious and valued artifacts were infact not belonging to their gods,but rather part of some higher purpose(defeating the most terrible and horribly conceived image of the lame ass boogeyman ever...)

Aristofiles
3rd Jun 2009, 16:27
have always hated the undead missions in all T games. Dont get me wrong, the cradle was a awsome mission but it dont fit into the kind of game i think thief should be. As soon as you try to go into horror and scary games there are tons of them out there that are way better. Why make a extremly pale copy of silent hill when you can meke the best stealt game?

DarthEnder
3rd Jun 2009, 17:11
Hammers some sort of offshoot with no real background since their most precious and valued artifacts were infact not belonging to their gods,but rather part of some higher purpose(defeating the most terrible and horribly conceived image of the lame ass boogeyman ever...)What makes you think they did not in fact belong to their gods?

My understanding was not that the Keepers made these 5 artifacts, but that they took the 5 most powerful artifacts they could find and created this master glyph around them.

It's like a horocrux for you Harry Potter fans.


Also, what the hell is a Jacknall?

MasterTaffer
3rd Jun 2009, 18:51
My biggest gripe with TDS,was that in making Gamall such an epic badass,they used artifacts,the eye being one of them,as weapons being created for the sole purpose of one day defeating the Gamall abomination.so in theory,the other 4 artifacts wield just as much power as the eye,and this sucks because it totally watered down the ''power'' which I always imagined the eye to have.It basically made the Pagans and Hammers some sort of offshoot with no real background since their most precious and valued artifacts were infact not belonging to their gods,but rather part of some higher purpose(defeating the most terrible and horribly conceived image of the lame ass boogeyman ever...)

The Sentients were used in the Final Glyph, not necessarily made for it. Don't forget that the Kurshok crown was given to the Kurshok's as a gift from the Trickster. The Trickster then sunk their Citadel underground when their king thought himself greater than the Woodsie Lord, and I sincerely doubt the Kurshoks were walking around on the surface while the City was being constructed over their heads. It's very likely that the Eye is an ancient sentience that has enigmatic powers that havn't been revealed yet. The Keepers selected it with the other artifacts as the keys to create the Final Glyph.

Also, the Final Glyph wasn't created for solely stopping Gamall. It was created by the Ancient Keepers as a way of erasing all glyph magic from the City. The Ancient Keepers put it place because they foresaw that the future Keepers would lose their balance and start using the glyphs for corrupt purposes. Artemus sent Garrett to activate this because it was the only way to stop Gamall, as she had become an unstoppable juggernaut at this point. It is also likely that the Keepers truly had lost their balance, believing themselves to be controlling the glyphs rather than following them.

By activating the glyph, Garrett restored balance to the City, thus making him the "One True Keeper." Therefore, there would be no glyph magic in Thief 4. Glyph magic is gone for the rest of times, and the Keepers can no longer read into the future as they had. If the Keepers survive, it will be using traditional spying methods rather than glyphs.

fayfuya
15th Jun 2009, 12:42
Well, some guys like lots of undead and ghosts, scary missions and stuff,
and some guys (they aren't cowards) prefer a bit less undead and ghosts.
I liked the undead and scary creatures quantity in TDS,
if Thief 4 is gonna have that quantity of scary creatures like in TDS, it would be great.
Abysmal Gale and the Cradle were great, 2 maps of undead is good.
When i'm talking about "scary creatures" i'm not talking about the pagan's Beasts or the statues of the Hag, but only for undead and ghosts, or puppets :D .

Hamadriyad
15th Jun 2009, 13:51
Exactly. Especally in graveyards. And I want to see hammer haunts.
And absolutely there should be a creepy mission.(at least one)

gpagonewest
15th Jun 2009, 14:09
Ghosts, I hope so. Undead I am not personally bothered about.

The chain rattling ghosts from T1/T2 were great, very unnerving to hear before you knew where they were.

Hamadriyad
15th Jun 2009, 14:13
The chain rattling ghosts from T1/T2 were great, very unnerving to hear before you knew where they were.

Definitely.

kabatta
15th Jun 2009, 14:37
Zombies from TDP an TMA. Alltough it was satisfactory to chop off the limbs of the zombies in T2X.

Necros
15th Jun 2009, 14:38
I liked the undead and scary creatures quantity in TDS,
if Thief 4 is gonna have that quantity of scary creatures like in TDS, it would be great.
Abysmal Gale and the Cradle were great, 2 maps of undead is good.
This. :thumb:

fayfuya
15th Jun 2009, 18:03
Sadly, i haven't played T1 or T2 but i've seen some videos and the zombies there were more scary than in TDS...funny :D
And if i'm not wrong, the spiders i've seen fighting in the streets had a human voice :D
maybe i disheard correctly

kaekaelyn
15th Jun 2009, 19:51
No, you've probably just watched some videos by that guy who likes to Dromed the non-human enemies and give them human voices. Haven't seen it with spiders, but I have seen it with zombies.

Deathologist
15th Jun 2009, 23:08
It should have some but the devs should definitly not over-do the use of undead. Otherwise their significance is reduced.

Apprentice101
16th Jun 2009, 02:20
I really hope it does. Supernatural, undead and creepy things were the best missions from all frachise.

fayfuya
16th Jun 2009, 04:02
Yes you are right jtr7, but i would like to hear some opinion from Eidos, i think Viktora and something like nete, i can't remember his name excuse me :D are Eidos workers or something like that, may i hear your opinion please?

AbysmalGale
16th Jun 2009, 09:13
I'm sorry, what are you asking, fayfuya? :)

I think he wants to hear opinions on the subject from the forum moderators. However, if they knew anything they wouldn't reveal it at this point.

AbysmalGale
16th Jun 2009, 09:31
Back to the subject:
I was not a fan of the creepy missions, so for me one or two are more than enough. I liked the solution of creepiness presence in TMA. Never entire levels with undeads or ghosts, but rather a few of those elements thrown in here and there in several "normal" levels.

You could find:


a couple of zombies in Trace the Courier

two haunts in Evesdropping

a couple of zombies in Blackmail (and a haunt as well if I remember this correctly)

a ghost in Precious Cargo

a ghost in Casing the Joint/Masks

hidden zombies in a tower in Life of the Party

tree beasts in Trail of Blood

dancing zombies in framed (though they were not dangerous)


...and so on and so forth. I think that was an excellent solution to the creepiness issue. One wasn't always forced to interact with creepy creatures, but could seek those areas if wished.

EMCEE
16th Jun 2009, 10:27
This theme already was disscust in other topic...

fayfuya
17th Jun 2009, 03:32
I gave my friend my Thief 3 CD (original) to play it for a week, he just started the Cradle, he's so scared :D
The Cradle is so damn scary, but i like this, the most scary map should be in the end of the game, becase it gives you more moral to finish it, and if there are kids playing it, they will be so scared of that map they would stop playing, just like as i did when i was 10 :D .
Anyone else think the most scary map should be at the end of the game?

DarthEnder
17th Jun 2009, 04:04
Thief 2 did it best. Occasional undead in places where it made sense. And Garrett never went any place that was overrun with zombies.

ToMegaTherion
17th Jun 2009, 08:21
A lot of people really like Return to the Cathedral and Cradle (even among those who generally don't like the woo missions) so I think maybe Metal Age was slightly light on this sort of thing.

esme
17th Jun 2009, 11:27
I gave my friend my Thief 3 CD (original) to play it for a week, he just started the Cradle, he's so scared :D
The Cradle is so damn scary, but i like this, the most scary map should be in the end of the game, becase it gives you more moral to finish it, and if there are kids playing it, they will be so scared of that map they would stop playing, just like as i did when i was 10 :D .
Anyone else think the most scary map should be at the end of the game?

10 .... 10! :eek:


it's rated 12+ you shouldn't have been playing it at all



;):D

lyssyder
30th Jun 2009, 14:56
I LOVED the undead levels of the Thief series.

This for some points :

1) they were providing a break/change from the other missions
2) they were damn scary
3) they added flavor to a game that is dark and gothic, it is !
4) they were hard to kill or near to impossible to kill ; )

I love hard tough games and I always play them immediately from the
hardest level possible, if not I don't enjoy them.
The zombies were great, in fact they were so scary and with their impenetrability
to mortal weapons they were even more scary.
I love to feel/be almost powerless for a while in a game, it brings you back to
HUMILTY mode. We are too used to PS style games where you blast all in your path
with a variety of weapons.

For example in The Call of Chthulu Dark Corners of the Earth, you get caught by
the Deep Ones and they take away all your weapons and throw you in a cell.
Then you are able to escape from your prison but for a part of the mission you are
without ANY weapons. Hehehe. THAT is scary !!! And then, when you get back
all your equip, after a long while, what a satisfaction to blow their damn fish heads to smithereens.

Running, hiding from the zombies.....what a scare !! Especially in the vault of the Hoard......
They are standing again, ohh nooo, oh my God, where to run, nooo this way is closed, aahhhhhh
aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....
And what about Return to the Cathedral, with those rattling chains, funebrial moans,
spine chilling sounds....

The scariest thing is not to have 100 enemies around and blast them with plasma cannons,
it is to kill something only to have it come back to life in a few seconds, then panic ensues =)

As already said, to be effective, the undead stuff must NOT be present through the ALL game.
Just a spot here and there makes you more unsecure and scared.
Humilty mode is great. ; )

Fatherwoodsie
3rd Jul 2009, 22:27
i agree

LordGervasius
4th Jul 2009, 14:30
undead are a necessary evil. I hate undead missions but thats kind of the point. Faced with a crypt full of undead in real life(yeah right), nobody in their right mind would want to enter. They are scary. As long as its not overdone I think its a necessity to have undead in a thief game.

DarthEnder
4th Jul 2009, 14:47
A lot of people really like Return to the Cathedral and Cradle (even among those who generally don't like the woo missions) so I think maybe Metal Age was slightly light on this sort of thing.Well, there was supposed to be a level in Thief 2 Gold where he raided some necromancer towers. So that probably would have filled the quota.

astridelf
5th Jul 2009, 18:19
The zombies in Thief1 had their good place in the game,dont remove them,ghosts also they really missing in TDS,Thief 1 was the perfect part from the series.

FriendlyStranger
6th Jul 2009, 09:36
Fiction-wise, they would be undead flies that attack the living for the same reasons as other undead, and not be able to reproduce, so they don't spread, and they would be destroyable with everything that destroys zombies.

What a badass necromancer did this work, reviving thousands of flies... man this man oughta got time ^^

BG_HHaunt
9th Jul 2009, 13:43
Undead missions are my favorite missions in thief (I'm not a fan of massive undead slaughter games though) ,but I didn't like the fast and quiet puppets from the Cradle.I prefer the zombies in thief 1 and 2.

FriendlyStranger
9th Jul 2009, 16:57
I also liked the way TMA handled things - I like zombie movies, I somehow liked the zombies in T1, but the "grounded" style of TMA was just right for me. If you use something too much like haunts, you get used to it and that ends the fun.

jtr7
10th Jul 2009, 01:35
..........................

Exit
31st Oct 2009, 18:50
I think those zombie things are good, but if all of then just could not attack you... Or just could not see you.. Those hounted places and things like that just freaks me out...
But that just my thoughts....

P.S. sorry for my English, I'm from Lithuania :)

xAcerbusx
31st Oct 2009, 19:25
Undead themselves aren't so bad. It's the levels they're in that have always annoyed me.

'Down in the Bonehoard' never fails to confuse the crap out of me. Even with my compass out, I get turned around terribly. Also... there's just so many undead that they stop being scary and just... get in your way and start to annoy you.

Namdrol
31st Oct 2009, 19:29
Yeh, I have to draw a map when playing Down in the Bonehoard.

jtr7
1st Nov 2009, 01:17
....................

Vae
1st Nov 2009, 01:28
Yes, the undead should be dangerous, and elaborate crypts and caverns should be complicated and confusing...you wouldn't feel in complete control and always have your bearings...that's part of the immersive experience of being in such a place...:)

jtr7
1st Nov 2009, 01:54
..........................

cGREGgo
1st Nov 2009, 02:58
I hate'em. I hate everything that's not human. :nut:

jtr7
1st Nov 2009, 03:06
.......................

Herr_Garrett
1st Nov 2009, 08:14
I hate'em. I hate everything that's not human. :nut:

What, dogs and trees and houses and computers and the other 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the world as well?

Vae
1st Nov 2009, 08:59
I am personally against such widespread hatred...:mad:

Like it or not, the undead and creatures other than humans are part of the THIEF universe.

jtr7
1st Nov 2009, 10:23
....................

cGREGgo
1st Nov 2009, 14:00
What, dogs and trees and houses and computers and the other 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the world as well?

Yes :mad2:


Trees: questionable... :nut:

Namdrol
1st Nov 2009, 14:49
I knew it, you're a big soft tree hugger at heart. :eek:

http://www.johnsteins.com/Journal/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/tree_hugger.jpg

:thumb:

glyph07
1st Nov 2009, 18:10
...zombies and undead didn't provoke particular excitement in the game, I always liked the idea of Garrett facing this creeping side of life. The problem is that I never found them particularly dangerous and most of all not particularly difficult to bypass.

Now, here's a possibly very silly idea that might have been already proposed but I haven't found a sign and of whose I don't know the technical implications.

Could zombies work on "smell" too like the Ringrates of the LOR? Say that they can "sniff" Garrett from a certain distance even if he's perfectly hidden from any light source...would that introduce a good enough difficult to overcome?

Garrett might have a potion to take off his odors ...haugh...sorry I was distracted by a scene from Trick'r Treat...hm...awful...if necessary in substitution of someone rarely used...on my part, for instance, I try to use them as little as possible and certainly I never found necessary use the one from TDP to fall down slowly and the one from TDS that make enemies slips (actually that's not at all a potion sorry, but it's still a tool that Garrett might use and in my opinion he should have as little as possible of them).

cGREGgo
1st Nov 2009, 18:26
I knew it, you're a big soft tree hugger at heart. :eek:


LOL :wave:

GhostStealth
1st Nov 2009, 20:36
I like how part of us moan and complain about the undead aspect, that is the point of it in my opinion, this is why I've grown to like the undead aspect so much, because its not found in real life and adds to the tension.

I like having undeads in a great way to break you out of zomfort zone and try to think outside of it, I like how they add to the mystery which is part of thief world, and anything remotely related to Book of Ash gets me very excited, what does that say about me? :o

Herr_Garrett
1st Nov 2009, 20:47
...anything remotely related to Book of Ash gets me very excited, what does that say about me? :o

That you're a necrophile? :p:p:p:rasp::D:D No offence intended.

Platinumoxicity
1st Nov 2009, 20:53
The undead are an important part of the different AI:s in Thief. You know how old games like Duke Nukem and Quake had many different totally unrelated enemies, that were all interesting in some way and they all had different skills and attacks? "Realistic" games nowadays don't have those. Thief still has some degree of difference between different enemies. The zombies in Thief can't be killed using normal weapons. This forces the player to change tactics. (unless he's a ghoster) The haunts can't be knocked out, or outrunned if detected. Change of tactics.

cGREGgo
1st Nov 2009, 21:01
I've said it before, I'll say it again...

Save the zombies & monsters for Quake & Duke Nukem...

Aren't we supposed to be sneaking around stealing things?

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

(I need backup, hehe) :nut:

ClashWho
2nd Nov 2009, 00:13
Must admit, I hated the zombies and ghosts when I first played the Dark Project, but now they're so much a part of the Thief world that I'd miss them if they were gone. Besides, they were the scariest parts of the game. Those haunts just plain freaked me out with their clanking chains and backwards speech. I wouldn't want them to dominate the game, but a couple levels featuring them would be nice.

cGREGgo
2nd Nov 2009, 01:17
I'd like to see zombies & dead things walking around stay burried underground where they belong...

:nut:

Vae
2nd Nov 2009, 02:13
Too late...:D...they are already part of the THIEF universe.

ClashWho
2nd Nov 2009, 02:14
No, we are not supposed to be sneaking around and stealing things. That's what Garrett would LIKE to do, but his lifestyle is interrupted by bigger things, making him use his skills for infiltration and information-gathering while stealing along the way to the bigger goal. Thief isn't supposed to be Medieval GTA with a focus on buildings. It's not supposed to be a reality simulator. It's a fantasy game about a Thief who can't have it his way much of the time, and what he has to do about it. I'd be upset if the majority of the Pagan Faction disappeared and the rest just became farmers. I like Viki and Constantine and their minions very much and would hate to see them wiped from the Thief Universe. Necromantic phenomena plaguing the Hammerites, too! It's a creepy world, and not just because it's dark outside. I'd love to see the missing flora and fauna return in some form (and not just mounted heads).

Now this is a guy that understands Thief!

Vae
2nd Nov 2009, 02:24
No, we are not supposed to be sneaking around and stealing things. That's what Garrett would LIKE to do, but his lifestyle is interrupted by bigger things, making him use his skills for infiltration and information-gathering while stealing along the way to the bigger goal. Thief isn't supposed to be Medieval GTA with a focus on buildings. It's not supposed to be a reality simulator. It's a fantasy game about a Thief who can't have it his way much of the time, and what he has to do about it. I'd be upset if the majority of the Pagan Faction disappeared and the rest just became farmers. I like Viki and Constantine and their minions very much and would hate to see them wiped from the Thief Universe. Necromantic phenomena plaguing the Hammerites, too! It's a creepy world, and not just because it's dark outside. I'd love to see the missing flora and fauna return in some form (and not just mounted heads).


Now this is a guy that understands Thief!

:thumb:..Yes indeed!


I've said it before, I'll say it again...

Save the zombies & monsters for Quake & Duke Nukem...

Aren't we supposed to be sneaking around stealing things?

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

(I need backup, hehe) :nut:

Now this is a guy who doesn't understand THIEF!

cGREGgo
2nd Nov 2009, 04:03
You are getting sleepy...

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:QbzpXPgqsPThPM:http://themagicofhypnosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img7.jpg

Your eyes getting heavy...

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:QbzpXPgqsPThPM:http://themagicofhypnosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img7.jpg

On the count of three you're going to go change your vote..

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:QbzpXPgqsPThPM:http://themagicofhypnosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img7.jpg

One...

Two...

Three...

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:QbzpXPgqsPThPM:http://themagicofhypnosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img7.jpg

:nut:

kabatta
2nd Nov 2009, 06:42
Grego, why can't you talk without emoticons ? Tough Herr is brutal, he has a point. You seem to exagerate more and more theese days. Stop posting in the topic trying not to start flame wars please.
Now back on the track (topic): I want haunts in Thief 4. I like hearing "Joiin us...joiiins us...JOIN US NOW!!"

(Just noticed I have said "start" instead of "stop". Boy, I feel silly. edited)

cGREGgo
2nd Nov 2009, 06:44
:nut: Wow, nobody has a sense of humor around here? GEEZ! :nut:

Here's my favorite type mission:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UUp5SQnzbU


:) The kind with no haunts!

Platinumoxicity
2nd Nov 2009, 07:00
Save the zombies & monsters for Quake & Duke Nukem...


You. Didn't. Under. Stand.

Human guards are 1 type of enemy, flying fire elementals are different and they require special tactics. Unkillable zombies are different and they require special tactics.
Quake had enemies that shoot, enemies that hit, and enemies that resurrect the dead. Those are different AI:s that all make the game more interesting.

Did you get it now? Thief 4 will suck if there are only 1 type of AI. Always doing the same stuff, always mubling the same jargon. All the Haunts, zombies and burricks make the game more fun because you can't just take out everyone using the blackjack.

Did you get it now? I'll separate the syllables for easier reading. Hu-man guards are 1 type of e-ne-my, flying fire e-le-men-tals are dif-fe-rent and they re-quire spe-cial tac-tics. Un-kill-able zom-bies are dif-fe-rent and they re-quire spe-cial tac-tics.

cGREGgo
2nd Nov 2009, 07:11
The reason for the discrimination is (wasn't that the question?)...


These type levels are far more realistic... don't you think?

Especially if you:

- Cant kill anyone
- Have nothing except a blackjack

Also. This level was likely on expert, and look how easy that was (enemy awareness)?

Thi4f needs to be lots harder on expert level.

kabatta
2nd Nov 2009, 07:25
Thief 4 will become too easy with only one type of AI, that is the point every person is trying to say to you.

Platinumoxicity
2nd Nov 2009, 07:53
Yes, when you equip yourself for a mission that focuses on exploring unknown caves with "strange creatures" and you're suddenly supposed to go rob a heavily guarded opera house, you really need to improvise.


The reason for the discrimination is (wasn't that the question?)...
OMG you still didn't get it? :mad2:

Namdrol
2nd Nov 2009, 07:55
...It's not that I want "only humans", I'm more of a balance type....T1 & T2 were perfect!

Changing our minds is a must if we are to be flexible and grow.
But sometimes it seems that people can deliberately change their position and make statements just to wind others up.
Not nice.

Vae
2nd Nov 2009, 09:22
He's not playing around...:nut:...:(

Pieter888
2nd Nov 2009, 11:25
Like cGREGgo, I tend to like missions better without undead.
On the other hand, Thief 4 without undead might feel empty to me.
I loved the balance in TMA the most, I think thief IV should considering sticking to that balance (maybe even crank it up a bit because even though it was the best balance, a bit more undead couln't hurt).

I hope EM can find this balance between dead/living

cGREGgo
2nd Nov 2009, 14:55
OMG you still didn't get it? :mad2:


No, you guys are not getting it... Easy? Uhhh NO WAY...

WIth zombies. You carry a fire arrow and shoot it at them. Or with a flashbomb, you run up & throw it on the ground.

Look at the person playing in that video! He's not playing THIEF, he's running around without even caring who he runs into. I don't even see him hiding in the shadow? Get real! He doesn't care if he's been spoted because all he has to do is throw something down on the ground & keep running.

HOW HARD IS THAT! HE'S NOT EVEN HIDING IN THE SHADOWS!

You can do this anywhere in thief 3, that's what makes it suck.

Now, each one of you guys following the crowd or "each other" because you may or may not think it's "cool". Try coming up with any ideas to make this harder. You're only voting against this so that the game will be esier for you to continue running around like a chicken with your head cut off throwing stuff on the ground.

What happen to being Sneaky? Take all those flashbombs away, take all those firearrows away. Make some changes to make this Thief and not Quake Area.

The guards & priests don't even hear him running around? In Thief you can picklock a door and open it with a guard standing 6 inches away from it? NOT LIKELY. I'm sorry, if I was staing with my back on a door, I'd know if someone just openend it. Make this game hard so that there will be NO RUNNING if humans can hear you like humans are supposed to.

Give me something hard to play! Make it to where I have to "creep" & hide in the shadows. With a "blackjack" only as my weapon, I MUST CREEP up behind guards. I have to be sneaky. Make it so the people around can hear me when I run around like an "idiot" chicken with my head cut off.

If I wanted to do that, I'd go play quake, not Thief. You're wanting to turn Thief Into a fragfest, then we're back to playing the same old Quake Arena game...

Sorry, I already got that game...

I have some more for you...

THAT'S WHY WE HAVE THE UNDEAD DISCRIMINATION!

:rasp:


Grego, why can't you talk without emoticons ?

Dude, their only faces, they can't really bother you that much can they? :rasp:

ClashWho
2nd Nov 2009, 15:15
:nut: Wow, nobody has a sense of humor around here? GEEZ! :nut:

I thought it was funny, man. And I sympathize with your opinion. I was initially disappointed with the appearance of zombies and haunts way back when I first played the Dark Project. I, too, wanted a game where I was just a thief stealing things from ordinary humans. But I eventually realized that this just wasn't the intention of the creators. They were creating a fantastic world with Garret the master thief as the central character. Zombies and haunts are part of that world.

I also eventually realized that the real reason I initially disliked the zombies and haunts was simply because they freaked me out and wouldn't go down with a blackjack. Even a sword couldn't keep the zombies down for long. The game suddenly became much more complicated, and I didn't like that. But then I realized that the scariest, most tense and involving parts of the game were dealing with those blasted undead! They knocked me out of my thieving comfort zone, and that was ultimately a good thing.

I love the world the creators of Thief have given us, and that includes the frustrating, frightening and entertaining undead.

cGREGgo
2nd Nov 2009, 15:19
I thought it was funny, man. And I sympathize with your opinion. I was initially disappointed with the appearance of zombies and haunts way back when I first played the Dark Project. I, too, wanted a game where I was just a thief stealing things from ordinary humans. But I eventually realized that this just wasn't the intention of the creators. They were creating a fantastic world with Garret the master thief as the central character. Zombies and haunts are part of that world.

I also eventually realized that the real reason I initially disliked the zombies and haunts was simply because they freaked me out and wouldn't go down with a blackjack. Even a sword couldn't keep the zombies down for long. The game suddenly became much more complicated, and I didn't like that. But then I realized that the scariest, most tense and involving parts of the game were dealing with those blasted undead! They knocked me out of my thieving comfort zone, and that was ultimately a good thing.

I love the world the creators of Thief have given us, and that includes the frustrating, frightening and entertaining undead.

Good post, but read above... that's not why those of us who dislike the "undead" feel that way. It's because without them (undead), you can have the option to play with only a blackjack as a weapon & get closer playing the way I suggested in the previous posts above.

ClashWho
2nd Nov 2009, 15:32
Good post, but read above... that's not why those of us who dislike the "undead" feel that way. It's because without them, you can have only a blackjack & get closer playing the way I suggested in the previous posts above.

But there are plenty of levels like that. The undead levels break up the monotony of that. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't want the undead to dominate the game, but I think it's great having a few levels featuring them. They break us out of our comfort zone, as I and others have said in this thread. That's not a bad thing. It sounds to me like you want a one-dimensional game.

cGREGgo
2nd Nov 2009, 15:35
But there are plenty of levels like that..

No there aren't... there aren't any levels that MAKE you play like that. You can run around like an idiot in all the levels.

Namdrol
2nd Nov 2009, 16:10
You can run around like an idiot anywhere in life, in a game, on the internet.
But it is not a rewarding experience as most of us realise when we grow up.
The reactions we get both in game and in life are not satisfying and fulfilling.
So we learn to do things differently.

ClashWho
2nd Nov 2009, 19:17
No there aren't... there aren't any levels that MAKE you play like that. You can run around like an idiot in all the levels.

No, you can't. There are MANY levels where playing like that gets you killed.

Platinumoxicity
2nd Nov 2009, 21:20
I'm starting to get the feeling that discussing cGREGgo's ideas with cGREGgo is like playing chess with a pigeon. He topples all the pieces, craps all over the board and goes in front of a mirror to tell himself how good he's in chess.

He reminds me of those arabic debate shows on Youtube where an ex-muslim woman tries to debate an extremist imam. Those are hilarious... The man doesn't even try to understand the point she's trying to make and raises his voice, talks on top of her and it becomes a shouting match. :D

cGREGgo
2nd Nov 2009, 21:25
Dude, there's a line you shouldn't cross before you start getting stupid. That's going to get deleted.

kabatta
2nd Nov 2009, 21:27
I'm starting to get the feeling that discussing cGREGgo's ideas with cGREGgo is like playing chess with a pigeon. He topples all the pieces, craps all over the board and goes in front of a mirror to tell himself how good he's in chess.

He reminds me of those arabic debate shows on Youtube where an ex-muslim woman tries to debate an extremist imam. Those are hilarious... The man doesn't even try to understand the point she's trying to make and raises his voice, talks on top of her and it becomes a shouting match. :D

I hear that.:thumb:

cGREGgo
2nd Nov 2009, 21:28
I hear that.:thumb:

You also...


The man doesn't even try to understand the point he's trying to make and raises his voice, talks on top of her and it becomes a shouting match. :D

I'm not "raising my voice", I dont' hear anyone talking here, I'm reading it.

kabatta
2nd Nov 2009, 21:34
If you are going to use your super laser powers to get our "big, mean, evil" posts deleted be a gent and get me the fries too, and a diet coke.

Pieter888
2nd Nov 2009, 21:34
I'm not "raising my voice", I dont' hear anyone talking here, I'm reading it.

Most epic confirmation ever to be seen on this forum:lol:

Vae
2nd Nov 2009, 22:10
I'm starting to get the feeling that discussing cGREGgo's ideas with cGREGgo is like playing chess with a pigeon. He topples all the pieces, craps all over the board and goes in front of a mirror to tell himself how good he's in chess.


:lol:...isn't it delightful...



I'm not "raising my voice", I dont' hear anyone talking here, I'm reading it.

:lol:...oh silly, silly see-gre-go...please stay around, you're so much fun...:)

Pieter888
2nd Nov 2009, 22:18
I second that :)
nice, nick btw.
Go see-gre-go!

Namdrol
2nd Nov 2009, 22:42
If you are going to use your super laser powers to get our "big, mean, evil" posts deleted be a gent and get me the fries too, and a diet coke.


:flowers:

ToMegaTherion
3rd Nov 2009, 09:36
I think anyone who doesn't accept that it's reasonable to want to have no woo missions in Thief 4 is a fanatic. Same goes for anyone who doesn't accept it's reasonable to want woo missions in Thief 4.

Namdrol
3rd Nov 2009, 09:43
Fanatics all round then :)

ToMegaTherion
3rd Nov 2009, 09:56
Those crazy hammers...

ClashWho
3rd Nov 2009, 17:13
I think anyone who doesn't accept that it's reasonable to want to have no woo missions in Thief 4 is a fanatic. Same goes for anyone who doesn't accept it's reasonable to want woo missions in Thief 4.

Woo? What's woo?

esme
3rd Nov 2009, 17:27
does "woo" mean "undead" ? as in wooOOOooooOOOoooo ?

Namdrol
3rd Nov 2009, 17:40
I didn't get it either, I just tried to follow the argument and ended up with "error, does not compute".

kabatta
3rd Nov 2009, 17:44
Good to know I'm not the only one wondering what is that "woo" thing.

ToMegaTherion
4th Nov 2009, 16:22
I guess esme might have the right idea, I can't remember the derivation but it was used on the ion storm thief 3 forum. It was for undead and it might have been for other supernatural stuff too, my memory is hazy. I think it was originally a mocking term, but it's just quick to write and everyone there knew what it meant.

Silent Taffer
18th Apr 2010, 00:58
I know it's been said before. Really. A conversation about the undead being resurrected is somehow fitting, though. But I need to know from all of you.. Why?
Sure, my favorite part was reaching the treasure. Yes, the atmosphere of the game was incredible. The puzzles were ingenious. The storyline and characters! But the hate for the undead is incredible. Is it an overwhelming number of you that don't like the undead parts, or just a small but very vocal minority?

Because I'll tell you, spending nights being creeped out by some walking dead that somehow seems to run faster than you think it does totally made me love the game more. It's not like the Thief series relied on it. There was relatively few times in the 1st and 2nd game they appeared. They blended in quite well with the story. Sure, they were hard, but this is THIEF, not some sissy game about an overpowered anit-superhero that runs about in NYC/Gotham.

Other criticisms I've heard is that "it takes you out of the game", or "It seems like it doesn't belong in the game. I just want to steal stuff"

I honestly can't believe those excuses. See, the undead and horror was really "in" when Thief came out. Resident Evil and countless other "survival horror" games were raking in profits. Yes, I know, Thief isn't a survival horror, but it is an action game. The undead forces us to rethink how we take on an enemy. You can't kill it by regular means. You have to use holy water, run or sneak past them, use fire or simply outsmart them.

Another funny thing is that I hear no mention about the rest of the outlandish characters you meet later in the game. They're tough, mean, and worse than any undead, yet not a peep have I heard about how unfair they are, or how they "Take you out of the game".

So can someone please sum it up for me? Exactly why were the undead hated so much, that more than a decade later I hear cries to please not put them in T4? I say not only LET them be there, add more!!!

Vae
18th Apr 2010, 09:34
So can someone please sum it up for me? Exactly why were the undead hated so much, that more than a decade later I hear cries to please not put them in T4? I say not only LET them be there, add more!!!

:thumb:...Agreed.

The undead are hated by people who wish to twist THIEF into a mundane mockery of itself. They want THIEF to exist in a non-magical/non-supernatural universe, thus defiling its' sanctity. Why? I can only surmise that because of limited imagination and a stunted sense of wonder, they view anything other than basic thieving to be distracting/overwhelming to their banal sensibilities. The whole proposition of this is of course blasphemy of the highest order...:mad:

Does that sum it up for you?

negative_len
18th Apr 2010, 12:50
Yes!

Hamadriyad
18th Apr 2010, 12:56
I couldn't agree more.

Psychomorph
18th Apr 2010, 14:26
I hate the undead in the original Thief games because I don't like how they are implemented (weren't scary for me, only annoying and I had no respect for them). On the other hand I loved them in Thief 3, because they were really scary and very well done.

My only wish is that Thief 4 makes undead scary as hell, pure horror, so that you respect and fear them. At the same time I want them to be not entirely immortal if dealt with by common means (sword, etc).

xDarknessFallsx
18th Apr 2010, 15:29
My favorite parts werent just "reaching the treasure." that's too limiting of a statement. They were also sneaking by and KO'ing guards, in realistic settings to get to the treasure. I just prefer the realistic elements of Thief more than the supernatural or undead ones.

That said, however, I like intertwining of the other stuff, in moderation. It helps make Thief uniquely "Thief.". I like some dungeons or crypts, or deserted mines, etc having some haunts/undead. I liked being surprised by some non-attacking pagan ghosts in a pagan village that was wiped out. And I liked the ghost in a T2 library that freaked me out. I didn't really care for T3's scary stuff because it seemed to be trying too hard; was being too much like other games and movies at the time, with flickering lights, creepy girl, insane asylum, cannibalism (iirc), overly scripted horror elements... Etc. T3 just seemed like it was trying to be a haunted house. I think that's what bothers me about the game FEAR, too. Tries too hard.

For Thief, I want to feel as though the undead and haunts are going about their business in their world, which by it's nature and what they're like should be scary.

So, I don't fit in your description since I think they are integral to Thief. But I just want them in significant moderation because I much prefer thieving in mansions and castles, against real guards that say things and react like people... Ratther than against undead that just moan and make creepy sounds. I enjoy the varied gameplay the undead bring. T3's artistic style and poor character animations may have also played a factor in me not liking them there as much. How LGS used the Dark Engine is just much better, imo.

Obviously T4 may have to bring some enhancements to this element of the game, since the T1/T2 ones aren't as scary as they used to be... But I hope they do the tweaks/enhacements with care.

Platinumoxicity
18th Apr 2010, 15:39
The scripted horror scenes in the FEAR games suck. The unscripted "scary type" of AI are pretty good IMO. The ninjas and the red-eyed ghosts in extraction point are a good example of AI that is strictly designed to scare the crap out of you while not relying at all on scripted events, so it's always unexpected.

Hypevosa
18th Apr 2010, 17:26
The undead are hated by people who wish to twist THIEF into a mundane mockery of itself. They want THIEF to exist in a non-magical/non-supernatural universe, thus defiling its' sanctity. Why? I can only surmise that because of limited imagination and a stunted sense of wonder, they view anything other than basic thieving to be distracting/overwhelming to their banal sensibilities. The whole proposition of this is of course blasphemy of the highest order...:mad:

That seems very far from the complaints I remember hearing about the number of undead in the first game. Everything I've seen as a complaint was not about the fantasy of it (really, here is the first place I've seen a thread or suggestion implying that they should be rid of the fantasy in the game) but of the fact that it seemed like a break from stealth sneaker into Tomb Raider. Unfortunately, they just didn't realize that they can sneak, or attempt to at least, around undead and beasties - almost exactly like you can with guards. I know I felt the need to kill all the undead in the crypt when I first played it (and I succeeded :D, yay for holy water arrow splash damage taking out a few guys at once!), and alot of the complaints came from other people who felt the same urge or pressure - but felt that it was betraying the purpose of the game to sneak around. I enjoyed the undead slaying respite from sneaking - but we all know i'm a slightly unusual thief fan.

maikaal
18th Apr 2010, 20:23
I liked how you could chop zombies' heads off in Thief 2X: Shadows of the Metal Age, so that they wouldn't bother you.

Hypevosa
18th Apr 2010, 21:15
being able to de-limb the various points on a zombie wouldn't be too unreasonable.

Platinumoxicity
18th Apr 2010, 21:44
being able to de-limb the various points on a zombie wouldn't be too unreasonable.

That would make them rely solely on lethal neck-biting instead of flailing their scrawny arms. Although dismembering zombies with a sword so completely that they become harmless would go against the main principle of zombies in all Thief-games: near-invulnerability.

The good thing about different AI in Thief in contrast to many games today is that they are so different in their vulnerabilities. Haunts are very hard to kill using broadheads because they're just skeletons, and you can't knock them out. But you can use flashbombs or holy water to destroy them. Fire elementals are vulnerable to water. Zombies can only be killed by explosives, flashbombs or holy water. And Fire Shadows are indestructible. You don't see that in many games these days, because everything is always vulnerable to some sort of gunfire. Thief has different ways to kill different things.

s guy
18th Apr 2010, 21:48
It's sad that the modern mentality is "if it doesn't die, shoot it with a different gun! Blam, blam, blam!" :rolleyes::mad2:

BDoubleG
18th Apr 2010, 23:31
I don't hate the undead, but I need a relatively light diet of them...they just freak me out too much...you just...can't...kill...them!!

Psychomorph
19th Apr 2010, 00:28
...you just...can't...kill...them!!
That's the problem I had there too. Undead are still bodies, without reception of pain and any kind of affection resulting from that, but a body can't walk without a leg, can't hold you tight with one arm and can pretty much do nothing without a head (the body can probably live without it, but most probably not keep balance to walk around). It might not be to easy to chop off stuff with a sword, but one to several hits should be enough to incapacitate a Zombie. Should be a risk still, so you don't move around killin' Undead, but you must be able to deal with one at least. A group of Undead would be to dangerous though.

The fire/holy-water arrows would remain the best and risk-free way to deal with undead.

Broadhead arrows however, while less efficient, should still have an effect, for instance, aim for the knee to slow an Undead down by damaging the joint, so it can't keep the normal pace. Put enough arrows to the leg and the muscle will be destroyed, which should affect the pace aswell. Arrows to the head and torso wouldn't have much effect.

Also, you should be able to kick an Undead an make it fall, if you have no time to fight, this can get you some more time.

Basically, apply some realistic physical affection to the Undead.

xDarknessFallsx
19th Apr 2010, 01:49
It's sad that the modern mentality is "if it doesn't die, shoot it with a different gun! Blam, blam, blam!" :rolleyes::mad2:
So all enemy AI should be KO'able with a blackjack. and killable with a few slashes of the sword? I don't agree. I somewhat understand/agree with what you're saying, but I appreciate some variety with Thief. Holy water was a nice discovery; I didn't really know what its purpose was at first. Took a completely harmless arrow and made it pwn zombies. Pretty cool...

If the variety in ways to kills enemies is somehow seamlessly integrated with the world, it's okay; as long as it doesn't go overboard with the variety... where each AI type has a different way of being killed. Too much, and it starts feeling video gamey.

Platinumoxicity
19th Apr 2010, 05:42
I think zombies should stay the way they are. Hit a few times with a sword and they go down but as soon as you approach they get back up again. On top of that I'd like to see Haunts to a bit similar things. Hit a haunt a few times with a sword and they go down, but they could be just faking it. And when you least expect they jump up with a bone-chilling laughter and get after you.

Vae
19th Apr 2010, 07:15
That seems very far from the complaints I remember hearing about the number of undead in the first game.

Hype, tell that to samcourse, The Deadly Shadow, ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ, and cGREGgo...among others. I believe you may have missed the More Thieving, Less Fantasy (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=97852) thread.

Here's a sample from samcourse:

"Thief has it's individual design style. Personally I think it has the potential to eclipse the Hitman series. I love the setting, seedy delvings, sarcastic demeanor, idiotic guards, minor squabbles between side characters and original dialogue. But you can't disagree that none of those things are allowed to happen when you are avoiding ape-men, undead, rat-men or whatever sub-human replacement was conjured up in pregame design.

Yes, glyphs are fantasy and no, they don't get in the way, they sidetrack you and yes, if you strip away the fluff you get a well executed game. Which when I first heard about the series and had only my presumptions of what a thief game would entail I was attracted to the idea immediately. Imagine the dismay when I found myself meandering through a graveyard, pagan teleporter..etc. A thief is not an adventure hero, he is a thief, a non-hero."

There are those who want to turn THIEF into THUG...a non-magical mockery of THIEF...blasphemy...:mad:

Platinumoxicity
19th Apr 2010, 07:34
There are those who want to turn THIEF into THUG...a non-magical mockery of THIEF...blasphemy...:mad:

What these people fail to understand is that the magic and the monsters are normal aspects of the world in Thief. The absence of them would be considered supernatural or crazy talk. If someone came and said "Water crystals are crafted by someone, they can't just appear in nature." that would be the same thing as someone in our world saying that "Grand canyon was made by God, it couldn't have formed by erosion in millions of years.". What's BS there can be true here and vice versa.

ToMegaTherion
19th Apr 2010, 08:42
Here are some problems with undead:

- encourage lazy level design. By this I mean that they, along with a lot of the other more fantasy themed enemies, seem to induce a more "follow this path" theme that probably isn't as appealing to many in a Thief game. It is noticeable that two very popular undead levels, Return to the Cathedral and Cradle, are structurally much more similar to the non-fantasy missions than any of the other fantasy levels.

Further, the missions tend to be more "unconnected". In most cases you deal independently with threats in one area without having to worry about connexion with other areas. Human missions are more likely to be connected, with your actions impacting larger portions of the level at once. This interacts badly with the next point...

- Stealth is not so important. You can certainly sneak around if you wish, but it's not a big deal if you don't, as long as you don't try to kill absolutely everything in the mission. The big deal is that zombie elimination is not particularly difficult when they're alert. Even haunt elimination is not so bad as long as you make sure to save your flashbombs for these fellows. Compare this with guards, whose easy elimination when alert is restricted to very precious gas arrows and whether your conscience allows you to abuse the flashbomb brokenness. If a few guards are running at me then I know I'm going to have to use some skill. If a few zombies are shambling towards me then I'm not really under pressure and I know exactly what to do.

Indeed, particularly in Dark Project, it is probably optimal play in many circumstances to take the elimination approach, because then you can make sure you limited holy water moments take down as many zombies as possible. Herding the zombies together for this purpose is easy, sensible, effective, but not really what I'm usually looking for from Thief.

- if I am "immersed" (evil word) then, upon monster attack, my natural response is to fight back. Upon guard chase, my natural response is to flee. Further, in such a mood, sneaking past guards is more fun and satisfying. Things like Apebeasts are also acceptable adversaries in this sense, but zombies, not so much.

I might come back later and add more thoughts.

Platinumoxicity
19th Apr 2010, 10:14
- if I am "immersed" (evil word) then, upon monster attack, my natural response is to fight back. Upon guard chase, my natural response is to flee. Further, in such a mood, sneaking past guards is more fun and satisfying. Things like Apebeasts are also acceptable adversaries in this sense, but zombies, not so much.

I might come back later and add more thoughts.

That's why even in zombie-infested levels you should only have a few weapons to use against them as the last resort. If you know you don't have enough water- or fire arrows to take out the horde, you'll have to flee. (If you're incompetent enough to draw the attention of these half-blind brainless idiots in the first place that is.)

The thing with zombies vs guards is that zombies have greater numbers with little intelligence, whereas guards are few in numbers but have superior tactics. Guards have the morality-aspect and you don't want to take them out. Zombies don't have that, but they're so dumb that you don't even need to take any out to sneak past them.

ToMegaTherion
19th Apr 2010, 10:36
Yes, undead levels are definitely more interesting if you've performed poorly in the previous mission and lack stuff. This is something of a contrast with what I find with guard levels, which tend to get a bit more fun when you have more stuff, because using stuff in guard levels tends to be fun and interesting, whereas using stuff in zombie levels tends to just make it boring and easy.

Platinumoxicity
19th Apr 2010, 11:14
Yes, undead levels are definitely more interesting if you've performed poorly in the previous mission and lack stuff.

Another example of "why it's a bad thing that excess equipment carries over to the next mission."

Every mission should be designed with a particular set of overall available tools, so that only the amount of loot acquired in the previous mission and the player's purchases in the loadout determine what equipment the player has. You need to make choices for each playthrough and you can't preserve stuff from previous missions just to make the next job a little more boring -as you say. :)

esme
19th Apr 2010, 12:31
I make an educated guess about the probable mission scenario when buying equipment in the loadout

this only applies to FM's now as I know what to expect in the OM's these days

but when going into a new mission words like cathedral, crypt, haunted and undead in the briefing usually get me to buy flashbombs and holy water if they are available, banks, mechanists and hammers make me think of tile floors so moss arrows may get a look in though I'm usually OK sneaking on tile, if I have a rope arrow I may buy one more just in case there's a puzzle that needs a couple but I'm usually OK retrieving them, if I haven't got one but there's one in the loadout I'll buy it in preference to most other stuff - the rope arrow stuff doesn't apply to DS FM's of course

I usually skip items that there is only one of in the loadout, like a fire arrow or a gas arrow as these are usually extremely expensive, so I can't buy other more useful kit if I buy it, and if they are needed for completing the mission then either I'll already be armed with it or the author will have either put one in the mission and it's up to me to find it, which just adds to the fun

Fuzhark
19th Apr 2010, 14:06
I hate the undead in the original Thief games because I don't like how they are implemented (weren't scary for me, only annoying and I had no respect for them). On the other hand I loved them in Thief 3, because they were really scary and very well done.

My only wish is that Thief 4 makes undead scary as hell, pure horror, so that you respect and fear them. At the same time I want them to be not entirely immortal if dealt with by common means (sword, etc).

Actually I found it to be the other way. I thought the zombies were a lot more creepy in the first Thief game, when they were slow, but many. It could be because their noises were a lot more creepy to. Also, it was a lot more satisfying to kill them, since they exploded when you threw Holy Water at them. I'm still kinda impressed at how well they made those splat explosions back then - 12 years ago. I wasn't really impressed with the zombies in Thief 3, as they sounded more like they were snoring a lot, and a lot of their animations were just like normal human ones. I saw one zombie stretching its arms and yawning just like guards. I don't know if zombies can yawn or not, but I will guess it never was intended. Still ruined their scaryness.

But yeah, hope they get even more scary for Thief 4, if they're in it. Which I hope. But they have to be put in like in the other games - only in a few levels and in creepy places. I think the reason Thief 1 was such a scary game is because nobody actually expected it to have a horror side to it. I certainly didn't and almost pissed my pants when I walked by that first "dead" zombie on the second level in the mines, when it suddenly woke up. Those horrific sounds and rotten faces had me totally panic and use several attempts to hit the ESC button and run away.

Hypevosa
19th Apr 2010, 14:20
That would make them rely solely on lethal neck-biting instead of flailing their scrawny arms. Although dismembering zombies with a sword so completely that they become harmless would go against the main principle of zombies in all Thief-games: near-invulnerability.

The good thing about different AI in Thief in contrast to many games today is that they are so different in their vulnerabilities. Haunts are very hard to kill using broadheads because they're just skeletons, and you can't knock them out. But you can use flashbombs or holy water to destroy them. Fire elementals are vulnerable to water. Zombies can only be killed by explosives, flashbombs or holy water. And Fire Shadows are indestructible. You don't see that in many games these days, because everything is always vulnerable to some sort of gunfire. Thief has different ways to kill different things.

Zombies are not neigh invulnerable o.O there's never been too many to flashbomb, holy water, fire arrow, to death. And having them go unconscious from being whacked with the sword is just as effective. The dismembering thing would just be more effective and less repetitive than having to whack the zombie after every time you needed to step through their 5 foot square.

Dismembering would allow me to reduce their attack range, slow movement speed to a literal crawl, or turn them into a funny little flood buddy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2r91qBzack). In halo 1 the flood could have their arms shot off, and, no longer having a means to attack you, would just follow you around. They were entertaining and served as good bullet shields.

Disarming/legging the undead is not as completely destructive as holy water, flashbombs, or fire arrows. If the undead were pick-up-able like normal AI's then KOing them with the sword and throwing their body somewhere I didn't need to go would be ideal.

And Extreme Knighting from behind was an effective way of dealing with hammer haunts.

Flashart
19th Apr 2010, 17:10
TDP had too many, T2 too few, TDS just about right. Abysmal Gale didn't work, but Cradle did. (I know the puppets aren't really "Undead") I'd prefer to see less but as they exist they've got to be included.
I think the main importance is using them in the correct way. If they're everywhere there's no impact. Likewise, just adding them to a level doesn't automatically make that level "scary".
Context is everything.

Platinumoxicity
19th Apr 2010, 18:07
I think that if they wish to make zombies' limbs detachable by other means than with high explosives, they should make zombies these crazy, raving lunatics like the feral ghouls in Fallout 3. No enemy in a game like Thief should be just firearrow-fodder. Everything should be deadly. The 2nd smallest enemy in the entire series is the deadliest one, amirite?. Why should zombies be just something you walk by and say "bye"?

Hamadriyad
19th Apr 2010, 20:38
Undead is a must for Thief because they are part of the universe. But not too much,Bonehoard was full of undead and it wasn't scary because I used to it. I started to mess with them.
Besides; haunts, ghosts shouldn't die by sword, arrows etc. They are UNDEADS for god's sake! Holy water should be the only way.(and maybe flash bombs too.)

Gabriel
19th Apr 2010, 20:39
Zombies are necessary in an authentic Thief game, just like all the other creatures that make up the Thief, um, fauna. OK, maybe except for the frogs...

I'm all up for making them more deadly and less incapacitated than they were originally in T1 and T2, however I don't think I'd like to see them "turbo-charged" like in 28 days later and other such movies. Something in between should work, I think.

I feel that in the original games they were not fast enough to be a threat. I was able to avoid dozens of them in some of the tight spaces in the Bonehoard level, just jumping around and bouncing from wall to wall and once I got the hang of it, they kind of ceased to be scary and they became no more than a bit of an annoyance.

That said, I rather like the idea of having different danger levels for different types of zombies, much like there were different types of guards. I would want to see dumber zombies, just kinda sleepwalking around, that react somewhat delayed .These would make up the "bulk". But I'd also like to see the kind of zombies that would make "zombie leaders", that are faster, smarter and a lot more dangerous.

Anyway these are just rough ideas of what I would like to see.

Don't even think of removing them from the game for the sake of undead-fearing *******.

Same goes for haunts. Haunts are awesome.

Hypevosa
19th Apr 2010, 22:19
I think what it really comes down to is a game of numbers vs abilities. In the first game there were a ton in the bone hoard, and so it made sense to have the super slow lumbering zombies because you could already get cornered by them due to their numbers, and having them be able to corner you faster wouldn't have been conducive to play.

So I ask you my friends, would you rather have faster and more deadly zombies? Or lots of slower zombies?

Odyseeos
19th Apr 2010, 22:20
Part of Viktoria/Trickster's world. A lot of people complained about zombies after T1, which (I imagine) helped lead to their rarity in T2. Meanwhile, I thinnk, the deepest Missions of T1 seeemd to always involved them. Their natural environment has to be moving. Thinking about it, Romantic art lives by tombs, as much as Nature. So do we, I reckon. A fellow of infinite jest. Uh, zombies might be more moving of themselves if they recalled one to the cover of an EC comic-- had that sort of imagination, anyway. I always wondered about the viscosity of saliva on those guys, but it sure made 'em h*ll to look at.

Vae
19th Apr 2010, 22:46
So I ask you my friends, would you rather have faster and more deadly zombies? Or lots of slower zombies?

Lots of slower zombies.

The original THIEF zombies should be the de facto standard for T4 and all future THIEF games.

I have to say, the undead of the first two games really amazed me. They captured my imagination with their presence, as they were created superbly well. In fact, I would have to say that they are easily the best undead ever to grace electronic gaming.

Psychomorph
20th Apr 2010, 00:10
Resident Evil zombies are the pinnacle of all undead! And they were very slow.

The thing is, undead are never meant to be the most lethal monsters, they are psychological terror, the incarnation of man's deepest nightmares, they are the Bogeyman of the adults.

Running zombies never thrilled me, they were just rotten dudes running around, it is the slow creeping undead that freezes the blood in my veins. Hearing the footsteps silently approaching you, their unholy voices moaning like in pain, their minds so dark and unbearable. They are the embodiment of fear.

Hypevosa
20th Apr 2010, 01:45
I think JTR presents alot of good points, and I particularly like psycho's. I do agree that the slow shambling zombies are more horrific. Fast zombies induce more what I'd call panic, instead of horror.

Vae
20th Apr 2010, 01:53
I prefer the slow shambling zombies, although, since there are the rare "fresh" zombies, maybe those could move faster, but be used as sparingly as they ever were, so the appearance of fresh or rotted will let the player know the potential danger level, but only if the devs bring back zombie possums, where a dead body on the ground may or may not be a zombie, so the player has to think about contingencies. If T4 borrows the fat, healthy, and skinny AI mechanics from TDS, where each of the three sizes have a set of variables, then that could add layers of variables.

Also, imagine a fat fresh zombie with its stomach torn open and guts consumed by the zombies that killed him/her. I still haven't seen a game zombie that takes advantage of the higher poly-counts to really create zombies with horrific wounds and missing limbs, but I appreciated the broken knee and totally exposed lumbar region of the old Thief zombies.

Get rid of the zombies that fall over and turn to sand, and bring back the steam-explosions and blessed holy water arrows. The zombies are great for giving the player a non-murderous excuse to destroy beings in a satisfying way.

:D:thumb:...Agreed

T1/T2 zombies + possum + variable speed/behavior = THIEF goodness...:)

T3 zombies = elderly crackheads...:mad: = Poor THIEF experience...:(


Perhaps possum/speed/behavior could be randomized.

Vae
20th Apr 2010, 02:21
Yeah, I like the idea of the Necromancers being involved in raising the dead...perhaps they could use some of that mysterious red spice from under the sea as a spell component...arrrrrgh...:poke:

xDarknessFallsx
20th Apr 2010, 02:39
Slow zombies are good. Some a little quicker, for variation, would be nice.

Also, I like the speed of the haunts in T2; the ones with dangling chain sounds and creepy sayings. They are fast and are probably the type that freak me out the most in the series -- mostly because of their haunting sounds. Their breathy sound when they are alerted to your presence is even freaky. They're so fast and sometimes stealthy that I've jumped when I turn around and they're unexpectedly in my face.

zombie32
20th Apr 2010, 06:23
In this forum I regard jtr7 with the utmost respect for his knowledge and understanding of the Thief games. However, you have bested him and caused him to cry "uncle" with this post! All he could say was, "weird"!! He couldn't answer! He could kick my butt all over the place, but he couldn't beat you, a "new" taffer at that! Well done! Have a piece of humble pie, jtr7! P.S., I still respect you. Oh, how the mighty have fallen.

Namdrol
20th Apr 2010, 08:10
What are you on about?

Vae
20th Apr 2010, 08:28
In this forum I regard jtr7 with the utmost respect for his knowledge and understanding of the Thief games. However, you have bested him and caused him to cry "uncle" with this post! All he could say was, "weird"!! He couldn't answer! He could kick my butt all over the place, but he couldn't beat you, a "new" taffer at that! Well done! Have a piece of humble pie, jtr7! P.S., I still respect you. Oh, how the mighty have fallen.

:thud:...That's ridiculous...zombie32, you have misinterpreted the whole event. "How the mighty have fallen"...give me a a break.

Platinumoxicity
20th Apr 2010, 09:56
If EM were to go with Necromancers, it would be the one time where destroying undead would actually enrage someone. I really hope that if they go with Necromancers, they don't create undead armies, or more puppets, but do something unexpected.

Necromancers are something I have mixed feelings about. I'd like to see more necro involvement but I don't think we should be able to encounter one in person. They should be people who keep to themselves and stick to the shadows, and you'd only get to see their deserted labs in abandoned warehouses or factories, which now have become haunted because of their reckless experiments on the unknowable.

esme
20th Apr 2010, 11:34
I'd quite like the T1 zombies back

the ones that could throw a never ending supply of bits of themselves at you

only I'd prefer it if when they did this they slowly damaged themselves and eventually got to the point where they couldn't maintain physical integrity if they throw another bit at you

say after throwing ten bits of soft tissue the next bit separates the spine so the top falls off the bottom, or it throws a leg and falls over, the top then carries on throwing bits of the bottom half at you until it runs out then finally it throws the head and as it can't see you any more it stops throwing, but the torso can still grab you if you touch it

probably a silly idea, I just have this weird movie running in my head now and can't stop chuckling at it

Death24701
20th Apr 2010, 21:00
To Silent Taffer:

I think that people hate the undead mainly for the fact that they don't like to be scared. Or maybe that the zombies are too scary.

I have to say that I am part of the zombie haters. And the reason is because I am too scared to face them and would happily see them blasted to the stars. Much like that guy who sent his assistant(?), maid(?) to the stars in a crate (I think it was in LOTP).


Other criticisms I've heard is that "it takes you out of the game", or "It seems like it doesn't belong in the game. I just want to steal stuff"

I honestly can't believe those excuses...........I hear no mention about the rest of the outlandish characters you meet later in the game. They're tough, mean, and worse than any undead, yet not a peep have I heard about how unfair they are, or how they "Take you out of the game".

I'm making a connection here. It's only a hypothesis but if I use the fact that most people don't criticize other creatures, combined with my firsthand experience with zombie nightmares then I think that some people don't want zombies in the game because they may be too scared to handle them. I can say that I am much too scared to face zombies, in fact, I almost quit the moment I set foot on the Cradle....





My post feels inadequate..... I may not have made a good point...




Whoops, I forgot something. This isn't part of what I said above rather it pertains to what zombie32 said.

To Zombie32:

The problem with your post is that JTR is not against Silent Taffer in this matter. In fact, all he is doing is showing that there is another thread that pretty much asks the exact same thing that Silent Taffer asks. However, (I'm going to have to get a little bit more coarse here,) you, with your brilliant mind, have somehow logically deduced that JTR was against him, and was at a loss for words. Unfortunately as I will repeat again, JTR is not against Silent Taffer, I have searched through the posts he had put up on the thread he had provided, and he does not say a thing that would make any normal person think that he was against zombies in the Thief game. And now we lead onto the next part. If somebody is not against something, and they only post one word that is either in agreement towards it or is just plain old neutral, how then, are they at a loss for words? How did you even think for a moment that JTR was against Silent Taffer? And if I look at your post history, I'm pretty sure that JTR doesn't even talk to you, does he personally know you? How else could he kick your butt? What's worse is the fact that when browsing through your post history one of your posts is sucking up to JTR...
Giving me the need to kick somebody in the face.
Next time, I suggest you prepare for a firefight if you make a magnificently, brilliant, observation such as yours. Don't be so hasty to take on somebody smarter than you. Because honestly, right now, you seem like an idiot.

theBlackman
21st Apr 2010, 00:49
To me, the undead in all their permutations are acceptable. They give me a Zing when I come on them unexpectedly, and add a little of the "horror movie" element to the games that I enjoy, even when they occasionally require me to change my underwear.

Immersing myself in the atmosphere of the missions, and the "norm" of the world of THIEF, allows me to accept the undead as a common factor. They do, now and then, startle me, scare me and, even though it is a game, cause my heart to pound, my pulse to race, and trigger my inhierant "flight" mechanism.

But it's a game. They cannot come out of the screen and grab me, I can outrun them, I can destroy them. I actually enjoy encountering them and the mental gymnastics needed to survive the encounters.

Ardanna
28th Apr 2010, 23:19
please no zombies with the glyphs gone how would they exist, hammer's and pagans don't use them. No magic without the glyphs the pagans use them and I don't know about the hammers. Unless the glyphs come back. That would take some creative writing and expanation.

Hypevosa
29th Apr 2010, 00:34
Glyphs also aren't the only type of magic - pagans and hammers have their own types of magic, as well as necromancer and hand mages. The glyphs are gone, and as such that means of manipulating magical energies (or even glyph magic itself if it is it's own entity) was destroyed.

I hope that's not confusing, but when talking about magic things tend to get that way...

Hypevosa
29th Apr 2010, 01:32
You know me the hardcore DnD guy.

The way DnD magic works, is, as a spell caster, you have the innate or learned ability to manipulate the magical energies of the universe to your will. As magic exists in DnD, it is everywhere and in everything (the essence of all has the different types of magic flowing through it, divine positive energy, evil negative energy, elemental energy, etc) and you simply bend that magic.

As a divine spell caster, your faith and the power of your deity allows you to manipulate magic.

As a sorcerer your innate talent and force of will bend the magical energies to your wants.

As a wizard you have found means to manipulate the energies through vigorous studies.

So builder/pagan magic vs hand magic vs keeper magic could be the divine spell casting vs sorcerer spell casting vs wizard spell casting

The question to me still would be, if glyph magic was destroyed, does that mean that one of the very magical essences was obliterated from the universe or the city (like no more divine energy exists, so no more divine spells can be cast), or does that mean that a means by which to manipulate magic was destroyed (like the ability to manipulate magic through scholarly study and practice is gone).

Maybe glyph magic was both a means to manipulate magical energies, and a magical energy in itself... so it's a magic that was manipulated in a specific way that manipulated other magical energies.

Magic is CRAZY. I have a story I could tell about it that involved my DnD campaign for my friends - but only if people want me to.

esme
29th Apr 2010, 11:02
...Magic is CRAZY. I have a story I could tell about it that involved my DnD campaign for my friends - but only if people want me to.

please tell us the story

Hypevosa
29th Apr 2010, 14:31
This started with my friend Russell (our resident sorcerer in game, and only arcane spell caster) talking about how he couldn't wait to make his own epic level spell. At the time he was level 15 or so, and couldn't wait to get the level 21 (epic level) so that he could do this. He had the idea of creating a spell, where the magic user touched an object, and dependent upon what that object "was", a roll of a d100 would randomly (and permanently) turn it into the same type of object only from a completely different timeframe. So, presented a longsword, the magic user would roll a d100 to determine how archaic (1-40 or so) or futuristic (60-100) the weapon would become. So a 1 would convert the object to a pre-existant state meaning it disappears, a 50 would keep it the same, and a 100 would turn it into a light saber. That kinda thing - and if it was an axe it could turn into a chainsaw with a good roll, and a crossbow/bow would turn into a gun of varying caliber and type (pistol vs rifle, etc), a chariot a car, etc. Then the magic user would also be imbued with the knowledge to activate and use the object, and could, with time, teach another how to use it. The idea of a sorcerer with the darth maul quarterstaff light saber is... entertaining at the least.

Anyways, to cast an epic spell you must first create the epic spell using spell seeds, his involving the seed of Transform and Foresee. This is where the problem happened.

I was still a relatively new DM, but I was having alot of fun. The dungeon I crafted involved Link from Legend of Zelda, because I thought he'd be a fun NPC and alot of my players were fans. I'm a nice DM - that doesn't mean I won't kill my players if they deserve it, but I try to make them enjoy the experience as much as possible (though it's harder as a DM to do campaigns since no one is a cleric so we have little healing ability with me as the paladin). Realizing that Link is the Hero of Time, it made sense for, of all places I thought, Arcan (Russell's Sorcerer) to find the seed of forsee here. So as a final reward for returning the hero of time to his duties (this was supposed to take place immediately after Legend of Zelda: Links Awakening, where it shows link floating at sea after awakening the wind fish... we found him washed up on shore, we returned him to the mighty sorcerer who created Link's universe because our friend Orville (Say it to the tune of "It's the gordon's fisherman"... the jamaican fishamon) sent us to find the sorcerer to give him payment for helping turn his boat into an airship), Russell was given the Seed of Foresee as a gift, the seed that would allow him to divine the use of any object he temporally transfigured. Russell had me repeat what he was given, and I had to remind him about the epic spell seeds. He looked like his head was about to explode when I told him.

An epic spell seed is not an object, a creation of the divine, or anything physical - but a basic epic level spell that other epic spells are meant to use for the basis of their creation and the determination of the spellcraft check needed to create and utilize them. I, unwittingly, created something that shouldn't exist according to Russell, him explaining the way that magic in the DnD universe works in best detail possible.

So, Arcan was confused and dismayed by what he was given by this cosmic level (50+) sorcerer (Rauru, the wise old man in the orange robes from the zelda games also known as the Sage of Light (I did my research!)). He presented the seed of forsee to the Arcane University at Homeport, our little hub in our DnD campaign to study, and for a tidy sum of money.

A while later he visited and saw them working with the seed, which had since developed a consciousness, though it only really spoke to Arcan now, since the first mage from the university that it spoke to went insane when it went on to try and explain the workings of magic and the universe to him. Such a powerful object of divination, the God of Secrets (Vecna) took an interest in retrieving it though for exactly what means it was sought are still unknown (and I'm not telling :P). And has sent a few representatives to try and retrieve it. Realizing their defenses had been penetrated and that they couldn't protect the seed well enough, they gave it to Orville (the jamaican fishamon... sorry) as a gift for supplying their fish needs.

The Seed of Forsee served as a great weather predicting device, as well as fish finder for the airship, and served until it was attacked by the forces of Tiamat (the Goddess of all evil dragons). Whereupon Hypevosa (my paladin), Arcan, and Vortavian (my friend Tyrel's character), with the help of the crew of the ship, fended off 3 dozen halforc mercenaries, and a black dragon (forget the age category at the moment, but not a young one). Unfortunately losing an Artifact to them in the process. There the seed embodied the mentor of our psionic crew member to aid in the fight, and then left with Arcan and currently resides in his hood, as we stand on the battlefield amidst the chaos of all the fighting dragons and warriors for good and evil, in a battle that will destroy the entire world if it continues much longer.

Anyways, magic is crazy.

Dooley
1st May 2010, 01:27
Magic is crazy. Undead are good. They were a fantastic element of the first title, and used properly, will always have a special place in games.
Like Vampires though, overuse is Abuse and abuse is never good.
Although Abuse was an awesome game.

I'm sure the plans for this game have already been drawn and development is in strong motion, so frankly, I feel that these threads are pretty moot.

Ardanna
1st May 2010, 19:05
pretty please no zombies. unless i get to kill the neco's... that's fun.

Ghost_Theif
1st May 2010, 19:56
Actually I found it to be the other way. I thought the zombies were a lot more creepy in the first Thief game, when they were slow, but many. It could be because their noises were a lot more creepy to. Also, it was a lot more satisfying to kill them, since they exploded when you threw Holy Water at them. I'm still kinda impressed at how well they made those splat explosions back then - 12 years ago. I wasn't really impressed with the zombies in Thief 3, as they sounded more like they were snoring a lot, and a lot of their animations were just like normal human ones. I saw one zombie stretching its arms and yawning just like guards. I don't know if zombies can yawn or not, but I will guess it never was intended. Still ruined their scaryness.

But yeah, hope they get even more scary for Thief 4, if they're in it. Which I hope. But they have to be put in like in the other games - only in a few levels and in creepy places. I think the reason Thief 1 was such a scary game is because nobody actually expected it to have a horror side to it. I certainly didn't and almost pissed my pants when I walked by that first "dead" zombie on the second level in the mines, when it suddenly woke up. Those horrific sounds and rotten faces had me totally panic and use several attempts to hit the ESC button and run away.


I really laughed when I read about your first encounters with zombies it took me back to my first experience and the sheer terror I experienced.

This is the story in full detail.

I was off work sick with depression after a nervous breakdown and one of my mates knew that I liked playing games. So he comes over with a copy of TDP. Well I started playing it and found myself becoming very immersed in the game and the whole concept.

It was late at night it was dark outside the lights were off all was silent outside apart from the sounds of the night creatures and there on my screen was the mines.

A body on the ground obviously it was decaying as there was a cloud of flies buzzing around it. Gently creeping past so that I didn't touch it I moved into the corridor off to the right then out into the open area. Exploring I found my way up to the little passageway leading up into the upper mines areas below the Hammers Cathedral.

Lying on the ground in this little passageway was another body...I stooped and looked around wondering if there was any loot. Creeping forwards I made to pick the body up and move.........

The physiological shock was enormous...screaming I started to shake uncontrollably with absolute terror. Needless to say I stopped playing TDP and couldn't bear the thought of playing it anymore. One day my mate about two months later asked me how I was getting on with the game so I described my experience.

Kind friend you might think in that he just started laughing with pure delight. Well he came over that night and was very insistent that we play TDP and find a way of dealing with the zombies that I could cope with.

I hate zombies with a passion and wish to consign all of the them whole world over back to their graves. They are the only creatures in any of the Theif games that I go out of my way to destroy.

Hell yeah make em creepy...make them as frightening as possible...I'll only enjoy wiping them out all the more. :lmao:

Silent Taffer
12th May 2010, 21:12
I apologize for not getting back sooner. Thanks for the excellent responses.

ToMegaTherion made some great points. It expanded my views as to why some folks view it important to look at the technical layout of a level, and why some may feel it didn't fit in right. It is true that stealth becomes less important in an undead level. However, this didn't bother me personally, because to me the important thing was how different it felt, and that I had to make changes to my tactics in order to achieve a goal.

However, another thing that I saw mentioned is that it becomes linear. I disagree with that somewhat. I went back to play 1 & 2 recently, and on most larger undead levels I had different ways to approach a problem, be it by sneaking, luring, or killing. Once you get to know how they work, you can almost toy with them & it becomes mad fun, like watching a creepy Benny Hill show minus the women.


Sorry to have brought up the what JTR pointed out, that this was discussed before. I swear I looked!

GabSoh1
14th May 2010, 07:06
The first time I ever saw undead was in thief 2 demo in the level Unwelcome Guest (Life of the Party) when I went into a necromancer's tower and I saw a book, looked at it then after that I turned around and saw 2 zombies freaked me out (I was only 9 then) didn't dare go near that tower for weeks.

snakebyte32123
14th May 2010, 22:34
My favorite parts werent just "reaching the treasure." that's too limiting of a statement. They were also sneaking by and KO'ing guards, in realistic settings to get to the treasure. I just prefer the realistic elements of Thief more than the supernatural or undead ones.

That said, however, I like intertwining of the other stuff, in moderation. It helps make Thief uniquely "Thief.". I like some dungeons or crypts, or deserted mines, etc having some haunts/undead. I liked being surprised by some non-attacking pagan ghosts in a pagan village that was wiped out. And I liked the ghost in a T2 library that freaked me out. I didn't really care for T3's scary stuff because it seemed to be trying too hard; was being too much like other games and movies at the time, with flickering lights, creepy girl, insane asylum, cannibalism (iirc), overly scripted horror elements... Etc. T3 just seemed like it was trying to be a haunted house. I think that's what bothers me about the game FEAR, too. Tries too hard.

For Thief, I want to feel as though the undead and haunts are going about their business in their world, which by it's nature and what they're like should be scary.

So, I don't fit in your description since I think they are integral to Thief. But I just want them in significant moderation because I much prefer thieving in mansions and castles, against real guards that say things and react like people... Ratther than against undead that just moan and make creepy sounds. I enjoy the varied gameplay the undead bring. T3's artistic style and poor character animations may have also played a factor in me not liking them there as much. How LGS used the Dark Engine is just much better, imo.

Obviously T4 may have to bring some enhancements to this element of the game, since the T1/T2 ones aren't as scary as they used to be... But I hope they do the tweaks/enhacements with care.

Oh, how I agree to you. You just made me register with this forum, because I really hope the developers take care of our wishes.
I loved sneaking through big mansions with praying guards talking to themselves. Just like the Hammerites above the mines in Dark Project.
The undead made it a partly scary game, but in my opinion those "happy tree friends" and the stone guards in the third part didn't fit in the athmosphere, the first two parts had built, at all. I think, the try to make games non-linear and without leading the player isn't the right way. It makes 'em somehow confusing, like "Am I doing the right part of the game now, or am I not meant to be already here?" .

Psychomorph
14th May 2010, 23:29
The first time I ever saw undead was in thief 2 demo in the level Unwelcome Guest (Life of the Party) when I went into a necromancer's tower and I saw a book, looked at it then after that I turned around and saw 2 zombies freaked me out (I was only 9 then) didn't dare go near that tower for weeks.
Hehe, what I did back then, was to jump right back out of the window without thinking, like I caught fire or something. :lol:

Saint_Edgar
24th Jun 2010, 15:27
zombies gave those cursed dungeons the horror touch and a bit of tragedy, also: you had to sneak more because you didn´t want to waste holy water, nice 1

ThunderStrike
25th Jun 2010, 06:28
I've always hated undead, no matter which game they're in. Why? I don't know :| In Thief DS the zombies were a little bit easier than the regular guards, but the Abysmal Gale still scared the ***** out of me. And Cradle actually gave me nightmares...but that's probably cause I spent too much time thinking about it the second time I played the game...Either way, I still hate undead!!

windwalker
25th Jun 2010, 11:50
A couple of personal ideas or "unofficial" information about undead. (I really wonder who has the right to make official explanations about them:) )

Being a dungeon master for DnD game systems for about 10 years now, I had the chance to read some about undead. Of course, undead theme is taken into hand with various aproaches in various cultures and systems, however most stable I saw was the roleplaying game systems.

I decided to write these because I re-read this article from the beginning and noticed an advice about shooting an arrow to the leg to maim or slow down an undead.

No. It doesn't work like that.

How undead works:

As living creatures we are filled with positive energy. There are several mechanisms inside us, whether it be spiritual or biological, that turn earthly material to positive energy. (which comes from the positive energy plane.) We, however, have lose this capability when we die. A necromancer of enough power and or tools has the chance to turn the leftovers of the body to a gate to negative energy plane.

So an undead body does not move by flexing the muscles. It does not breathe. It does not need physical material to keep the gate open. (when creating an undead, generally a gem is put into the skull of it to open a timeless gate to negative energy plane.) They don't get hungry, or tired, or thirsdy. They can't be poisoned, or maimed. They don't get tired. They don't age up.

These are what makes an undead army much more effective than a living army, especially in prolonged battles.

The negative energy is used to animate the dead body, not the muscles.The skeleton is the best example for that: it does not have any muscles left but it still moves.

So why do they die when you hit them hard enough?

Because if you damage the integrity of the gate to negative energy plane, you cut the feed and the animating power is lost. But as long as a limb is connected to the body with an hair width of flesh and the overall gate is still functioning, it will keep functioning without loss of efficiency.

When you use fire arrows (in thief games) you destroy the body beyond capability of keeping the flow of negative energy. Holy water, and holy arrows will deal so much positive energy that will nullify the crystal effect that was used to open the link to negative energy plane. (like pieces of fabric that blocks the water pipe) I don't know how a flashbang is made, but it perhaps includes so much positive energy that it works fine.

When you chop them enough, you damage the portal and at some point, the leak of negative energy becomes higher than the feed. Then the body falls to ground. It seems the kind of necromancy used in Thief games enables the dark energies to adapt to the new, damaged form of the body (hence the gate) and make the zombies get up to fight again.

However, such undead (like zombies) are not good when it comes to "decision making". They generally have a basic order loop in their feed, as if the necromancer has threaded a three or four channels of dark energy to form a basic function. Like "keep walking in circles here and attack when you see someone (other than me, heh he)"

Besides, using the animation powers of the dark energy means unnatural movement which is generally slower, bulkier, and ineffective.

Thus necromencers tried to find alternatives, especially to keep the decision mechanics but adding in undead traits. Many necromencers have many methods for these, and perhaps haunts are such ones. They are dead, yes. But decision making and fast movement perhaps required a much more delicate pattern of gate for negative energy, and it's much harder to preserve the functionality when the gate is damaged. Thus we could "kill" them with a sword: the attack we make does enough damage to disturb the shape of "gate" (the body itself) which is much more intricate than a zombies because it needs like 100 threads to preserve better decisions and bodily movement/attack patterns.

Ghosts, on the other hand, were as an alternative. I told the living things had many mechanisms that feed the positive energy onto their being, whether spiritual or biological. Ghosts use the same approach by negative energy, however only the spiritual part is present in the case of a ghost. Ghosts are always under the same dilemma. If they get too spiritual, their physical interaction with the world becomes limited (the best known method for a high-spiritual ghost is telekinesis, but perhaps its very difficult for a necromancer to form a telekinesis thread) but they also become harder to hurt by physical means. If they become closer to the phsycal side, they can move objects, open doors, make touch attacks that add high amounts of negative energy onto a living body (like a holy water arrow we launch to an undead, only negative) but they also become "hurtable" by physical interaction. Even then, it is much more difficult to disturb a ghosts "gate" beyond integrity, so ghosts are much superior to zombies and or haunts in terms of durability. We are lucky indeed creating a ghost is a very difficult aspect for necromencers and there are only few such strong individuals around. (does anyone know any of them?)

Sometimes, though, some events in some places cause the balance of flow to be lost. Balance of flow is the connection of our plane (prime material plane - which is in conjunction with all other planes) to other planes. One might argue, for example, the core of our world has lost balance towards the elemental plane of fire. However, it must mean some other parts are lost towards the elemental plane of water, because our world is still in place and healty. So if some events disturb the distrubiton of positive / negative energy flow to our world towards negative side, "natural" forming of undead becomes possible. The amount in the shift states the possibilty of a dead body becoming an undead, or what kind of undead it will become.

(I feel like a necromancer adept in a final exam, telling everything he knows about undead:) )

MilordyBafford
30th Aug 2010, 23:45
I get goose bumps just remembering the times when Hammer Haunts locked on to me and I knew I was effed. Love me some undead. Definitely NOT in the 'groan! undead missions' camp.

I would like them to mix it up a bit and maybe see some faster moving ghouls or wights. And maybe they have a 'lifesense' ability that can sense your general area and you really have to sneak around them or throw their trail off with vials of blood or something.

windwalker - did you read "Libris Mortis"?

xDarknessFallsx
31st Aug 2010, 03:34
Yeah, these guys really made me feel effed, too. If their inhaling 'ha I caught you' sort of sound didn't make you feel doomed enough.. then their sheer speed did, as they locked in and hunted you down...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vCCt-0qjbQY/SgXj39-PqTI/AAAAAAAAAbU/GQ8vPeB1hqY/s320/thief2+world+o+hurt.jpg

In fact, just a couple months ago I was trying to lure one upstairs from the crypt area to the cathedral to see if it would wreak havoc on guards. I knew where the haunt was, I knew how I wanted to lure it... but yet it still caught me by surprise and saw me in the light before I was ready because they pace so quickly. Freaked me out as it chased me with a vengeance as I tried to quickly make a bee-line upstairs to the cathedral where guards were...

PS: Thanks for posting the kind words, snakebyte32123! I see you only posted once, and I prompted you to register to make that post. Awesome!

Asadar
31st Aug 2010, 13:41
I would like them to mix it up a bit and maybe see some faster moving ghouls or wights. And maybe they have a 'lifesense' ability that can sense your general area and you really have to sneak around them or throw their trail off with vials of blood or something.

I'm not sure to be happy to see fast ghouls in thief. But if they appear as very few enemies in a particular mission ... it could be both very scary but also very fun! :D

Such creatures would scare me like hell in Thief: Dangerous, clever, hungry, and too fast to be planted ... so a real challenge. :rolleyes:

It is an idea worth exploring. ;)

Ardanna
4th Sep 2010, 23:10
The undead are ok, provided that there are many different ways to kill them. But in general I wouldn't miss them.

Platinumoxicity
5th Sep 2010, 14:25
The undead are ok, provided that there are many different ways to kill them. But in general I wouldn't miss them.

Isn't the whole point of undead in Thief the fact that there are less ways to get rid of them than regular AI?

AlexOfSpades
8th Sep 2010, 16:23
Dear Eidos,

I will miss the undead.

Specially the Hammer Haunts.

- Alex

Asadar
9th Sep 2010, 11:02
... you forgot to mention that you sorely missed the smelly clouds of their bodies in a state of putrefaction by lunchtime, and the sight of their emaciated body would help you go from sweet night after a few hours Thief4! :D

And I'd like a stuffed "dead Hammerite" to cheer up my room! ^^

AlexOfSpades
11th Sep 2010, 22:32
Ew Asadar, haha

The Hammer Haunts probably dont even smell bad anymore, i mean, i think they're just skeletons, cloth and awesomeness.

But the zombies, gosh. The sound that they make when walking is so disgusting.. and the... wasps clouds just to remember you how great they smell!

Oh man, imagine the smell of Cragscleft. Zombies in the mines, dead prisoners inside, the never-bathing Hammerites, all sweaty. Bleeeh

And Garrett thinks: I cant feel this smell for too long, or i'll drown!

Asadar
12th Sep 2010, 13:22
Oh man, imagine the smell of Cragscleft. Zombies in the mines, dead prisoners inside, the never-bathing Hammerites, all sweaty. Bleeeh

In fact... I did! :D

When I played Thief for the first time I was very young... maybe nine or ten... and when I went to the mine and saw my first zombie, I was so scaried as I thought it was behind my seat every time I turned my back to it into the game! Suffice to say that I imagined as well other details... Yuk. :p

Tafferite
13th Sep 2010, 12:31
I think the way Thief is packaged and described when you first buy it the undead bits are a shock because you just thought you were going to be light fingered.


When I first saw a zombie I laughed, and ive killed so many zombies im pretty tried of them now, same goes for other 'unsual' foe (ents/craymen/burricks) I just want human foes most of the time or some new paranormal types/creatures such as ghosts or something new.

I however, am a huge fan of haunts, they still freak my out and I dont mind seeing them again as they are challenging. I was also impressed with the asylum staff as anything without a face freaks me out and the Thief Gold fire spirits with speed and their undefeatableness...more of those please!

Asadar
13th Sep 2010, 18:11
Of course once you tried to kill them, the zombies make laugh. But the first time I was already trying not to kill anyone, and I was scared to go near them...
Now see them again in Thief 4 makes me think I'd like to see them much more resistant or difficult to kill ( Maybe in hard or expert mode. In TDP and TMA they fall very easily, and in TDS, they are too easy to kill), and especially more dangerous because they do not represent a real obstacle (if there are only they). ;)

Tafferite
13th Sep 2010, 23:58
Except the packaging often mentions: Magic, haunted places, holy water...

And in a game full of readables and conversations, players who have the packaging and manuals but ignore what they say, will be surprised often rather than armed with foreknowledge.

You are too quick to judge...I often thoroughly read the literature on the backs of games. I bought TtDP (Sold out) from Amazon so didnt have the pleasure of reading the back of the box, from memory the Amazon description may have mentioned magic weapons thats all. Then when I got the metal age I knew what I was heading for anyway.

Deadly shadows definitely did not mention magic etc on box as a strict family friend prohibits her sons from playing/watching anything to do with magic etc due to strict christian beliefs. She happily bought it him for his birthday a while back.


Also..your US packaging may be different, I mean games have completely different names across the Atlantic.

jtr7
14th Sep 2010, 04:27
What? Read my words thoroughly, and you may see how easy it is to miss what is there. Every word counts, especially the ones that were missed.

xDarknessFallsx
14th Sep 2010, 04:46
My first encounters with ghosts/undead/strangeness (like pagans) in Thief were a shock/surprise to me. A good surprise. I'm glad I didn't read the box too carefully if it said these would be in there. I think EM should aim to catch some newcomers off guard with some of the magic/undead/ghost stuff by not revealing too much in their trailers, pre-release interviews, game packaging, etc. Probably impossible these days, with so many gaming sites to cater to... but it's just a thought/suggestion. Each new discovery and fascination in Thief 2 (and then Thief 1) I encountered kept taking the game to a whole new, more appreciated, level. I personally prefer the real world/real guard encounters more than the other weird stuff, so would prefer to have the majority of gameplay being that. But the game is more well-rounded with all the other cool stuff to see and explore.

Tafferite
14th Sep 2010, 12:21
What? Read my words thoroughly, and you may see how easy it is to miss what is there. Every word counts, especially the ones that were missed.

I did not miss any word at all, more so I read between them.

No harm done.

Tafferite
14th Sep 2010, 22:39
I will repeat, I did not miss any word, even your 'often' one.

It was the general tone of the reply that I answered to, which is, similarly another contributing factor to some ills of society. If I misread this tone I apologise, I have seen many forums a little 'frosty' to less frequent posters.

We are obviously on different wavelengths and are running severely off topic so i will end this now.


On an unrelated note, does anyone have a huge 'haunts getting stuck' problem (Thief DP)? As much as I love them I was just remembering how they got stuck a lot when running after me. Lucky I guess but a bit of a downer if you're ready for hide and seek.

Keeper_Riff
15th Sep 2010, 06:10
On an unrelated note, does anyone have a huge 'haunts getting stuck' problem (Thief DP)? Quicksave - quickload usually fixes all stuck AI nearby.

Saggy315
8th Dec 2010, 07:37
I'm not sure how i would put this, but i played Vampire Bloodlines and within that game they had a fully well scripted haunting. the haunting operated much like traps do and trigger where you move. as i recall there were haunted houses within the scale of the theif series, but to truly understand what i'm coming from look at the haunted seaside hotel in bloodlines. The hauntings within the theif series, while creepy in their own rights, generally went about the notion that you see a ghost you hear a ghost its obviously a ghost and its fully touchable and sometimes even killable(not always the case but generally). the hotel in bloodlines throws in invisible ghosts tossing mad stuff at you lighting fires throwing hissy fits and just plain scaring you, maybe toss in some actual solid zombie threats and that would be an awesome level.