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View Full Version : Dark Knight talk (some issues I had with it)...



Ensanguined Walls
11th May 2009, 21:22
I've been repeatedly viewing The Dark Knight, and I've found that my enjoyment is slightly dipping. Not only do I detest the brighter look of Gotham (I love how Batman Begins gave us a more comprehensive look of poverty and the Narrows), but I've found several gaping flaws that are difficult to simply ignore. It is one of the best Batman films, no doubt, but I'm starting to like the animated episodes more, in addition to Batman Begins. It feels too clean, sterile - there are few haunting images, and a messy climax strikes down the potential of the film greatly. Not only does Nolan repeat Spider-Man 3's mistake by introducing a beloved villain in the final stretch, but he doesn't offer enough time for Dent to truly, deeply transform. Ending it off with a death was also unwise, and it felt heavily convoluted.

My issues:

The city doesn’t take notice when a school bus rams into a bank and staying there for about some three minutes, rejoins the flowing traffic leaving a gaping hole in a smoking building behind. The bus takes no apparent damage, either, which is odd as fortified bank walls are typically fairly strong.

You have to take some leaps in logic to guess why the Joker was able to do everything he did in high-security areas that would be incredibly difficult to access, even with the mob on his side. It's also odd that the cops never took his face paint off for a more comprehensive study of his features for ID.

So, the Gotham Honor Guard didn't notice the heavily scarred newcomer and his creepy friends?

I could pass up the fact that all mobile phones were omitting omni-directional high frequency pulses during the end of the movie, but there was no way that there were enough phones to generate an accurate realtime 3D structure of an entire building and its complex structures! It wouldn’t hurt to have Batman wear a large pulse generator gadget on his belt you know.

The Chinese accountant sub plot. Why did the movie waste so much time on this mob banker? He wasn’t menacing. He wasn’t interesting. He was a banker. A banker that Batman flew across the world to get in a terribly contrived sequence involving a hot air balloon and south Korean smugglers. Yawn. They should have cut it out.

Are we really supposed to believe that someone who kills his entire crew during/after one job is a force to be reckoned with in the criminal underworld? a) He’d need to be constantly out working to recruit new help. b) He’d be gradually killing off all the best “muscle” in the criminal underworld (or the worst, then there goes the reputation…) c) How do you recruit new guys onto a team where all the other guys died? Doesn’t that, like, tarnish your reputation a little?

Who do we believe when Dent and Gordon squabble about the trust-worthiness of various police officers? Later, as we follow Harvey Dent on his descent into vengeance, sorry, but who cares? We didn’t see the officers driving the hostages around, so is this really supposed to resonate as a betrayal of trust? Had the movie introduced us to some of the officers as characters, maybe we’d at least have some emotional stake in their deaths, or something. No offense, but Rachel's death scene was also slightly disappointing, largely due to the fact that the new actor for Rachel was no better than Holmes.

As excellent as Heath Ledger was in portraying The Joker, I found Christian Bale’s performance as Batman to be missing the subtleties that allow the audience to sympathize with someone in turmoil over their moral choices. How is it that I could watch something as mediocre as “Die Hard 2,” see Bruce Willis crying over the plane that is crashed into the runway by the bad guys, and somehow like his character more than Bruce Wayne/Batman?

Harvey Dent is supposedly Batman's choice to represent good and "replace" him, but he hosts a shady fundraiser with Dent that shady millionaires contribute to, and I'd imagine that some of the public would be greatly confused about him claiming to be Batman in order to lure the Joker, his explanations afterward notwithstanding.

Furthermore, Two-Face looked unrealistic. His one eye is perfectly clear? He shouldn't even be able to talk properly if you look at his mouth. It would have been more frightening if they used less CGI and more of a garbled tone, less clean clothes and more of a broken man who just doesn't care. I wasn't crazy over the design.

Once more, Bale tries too hard with the voice. I loved it when Batman used fear more in the first film, but it's used a lot less in this one. It almost stripped the character of one of his most intriguing methods of operation. Batman's interrogation scene, while well-acted, was also a a downer. He uses his strength way more than his wits. If I hadn't read the comics, I wouldn't know why he's supposedly such an intelligent man and a first-class detective. He appears in scenes way too often with no explanation. I want to know how he finds the location and how he reaches it.

The multiple Batman story was waaaay underused and tacked-on. As was the legal goofs surrounding the fact that Lau was a foreign national illegally being interrogated and sent to jail. No mention of the Chinese protesting these actions by America.

I knew Gary Oldman was alive. So maybe this can't actually be characterized as something that "sucked about The Dark Knight" since most people seem to have been fooled. But I'm listing it anyway. To me, it was blatantly obvious that Oldman was not dead the entire time. Reasons why:

* He had no "Ahhh, I'm dying" scene. There was just a gunshot and he's down. Then he had no funeral or anything like that.
* When they told his family about his death, it became obvious that he was faking his death in order to protect him and his family from being targeted by The Joker.
* He's Gary motha****in' Oldman. They're not just gonna kill him like that with hardly a mention.

The character's last name is Gordon, and if you've ever seen a Batman movie you should have known the second he appeared in Batman Begins that he was destined to become Commissioner Gordon, which he hadn't yet.

Batman could save Rachel from falling from a freakin' tower when the environment was way more uncertain, and yet he couldn't save Dent from falling when the circumstances were largely the same. It felt too anti-climatic, and the blaring music was distracting at times. I can't say that I liked the fast-moving, rough action sequences that offered no sense of perspective or clarity.

I feel that this film relied way too much on Ledger, and it under-used some of the supporting characters. I felt no chemistry between Dent and Rachel. Their relationship was never fully explored, and it just didn't work at times.

In the first Batman movie, Batman Begins, the story clearly took place in a city that was unlike any other city in North Amer*ica. It didn't look like New York, Toronto, Chicago, or Seat*tle. It looked like the fic*ti*tious city of Gotham. In The Dark Knight, it was clearly shot in the city of Chicago. There was the ele*vated train tracks and the river that runs through the city. The only thing that was miss*ing was a shot of Oprah and Sted*man shar*ing a hot dog watch*ing a ball game at Wrigley field. It didn't look any*thing at all like the Gotham in Batman Begins.

To save Com*mis*sioner Gordon's son, Batman pushes Harvey Dent off a build*ing, killing him in the process. This went against almost every*thing Batman has ever stood for since he was cre*ated decades ago. Batman does not kill. If he is going to kill Two-​Face, why doesn't he also kill the Joker, who arguably endangered more lives than the son of Gordon?

If I owned this movie on DVD instead of Blu-​ray, I'd be temped to edit a ver*sion of the movie that only con*tained scenes with the Joker.

Kai Rei
11th May 2009, 21:34
I was never crazy over TDK to start with. I hate the Joker's look, Two-Face wasn't given nearly enough screentime, and like you stated, the city look's less threatening due to the perfectly clean, serile look. I didn't enjoy this movie as much as Begin's.

Also, I HATE how easily Scarecrow got punked in the beginning. Got his ass tied up and assumably arrested with no problem.

EliteF50
11th May 2009, 21:34
You're not supposed to analyze movies.

angleslam99
11th May 2009, 21:37
I've said this once and I'm going to say it again. The Dark Knight is a one-man show. Nolan seems to have made the same mistake Burton did with the 1989 Batman by making this movie all about the Joker instead of Batman. Also I completely detest Nolan for criticizing Burton for killing off the Joker when he himself goes around and kills off Two Face after his 15 minute killing rampage.

There are several plot holes and inconsistencies with the movie that I could drive Joker's big rig through. Everything was so sloppy that you would wonder why it took the police so long to catch the Joker. From the beginning of the film when the 2 robbers blast the window open, why did no one on the streets notice falling glass from the sky? Why did the Joker have his mask off while waiting for the other robbers to pick him up? Why did Two Face have to shoot the driver and cause a big car accident to kill Maroni? How did Two Face get in the car anyways?

The Dark Knight left a good first impression but relied too heavily on Ledger and everyone else felt like an after thought. Batman Begins had a better story, every character had their share of screen time. It just felt like a more complete movie.

Ensanguined Walls
11th May 2009, 21:42
Yeah, the maskless Joker and Two-Face somehow entering an expensive mob car was odd, especially because a car like that would either be locked or heavily guarded.

Furthermore, the Joker's damn truck flips over, and this is one huuuuge truck with lots of metal. The impact should be astounding. Yet he walks out and limps for two seconds before recovering completely.

Inferno317
11th May 2009, 21:43
My biggest problem with it was with Joker's escape from Gordon's unit. How does an average sized man avoid a blast so big that it incapacitates a full unit of police officers by just leaning ever so slighty? lol

Oh, and I was heavily impressed with how Batman's armor electrocuted the Joker's thug like it does in the comics.........until I paused it and saw the huge friggin' wire hanging out of the bottom!!!!! :P

Ensanguined Walls
11th May 2009, 21:44
My biggest problem with it was with Joker's escape from Gordon's unit. How does an average sized man avoid a blast so big that it incapacitates a full unit of police officers by just leaning ever so slighty? lol

Which brings me to another point...

These officers/medical guys should know that the Joker is one murderous trickster. Yet he's in an average cell, they don't even notice the glass behind him when he enters said cell, and they react stupidly when they should know there's gonna be trouble after that criminal complains of pain.

CaptainMcMulla
11th May 2009, 21:46
The Dark Knight was great. Nolan did say that in Batman Begins the focus point will be Batman and how they develop the character would be shown. so why would he want to do that again in TDK? also Joker is a character who pushes Batman to his limits and thats why he was the main focus point in TDK as also he is one of the most iconic comic book villains.

Ensanguined Walls
11th May 2009, 21:47
The Dark Knight was great. Nolan did say that in Batman Begins the focus point will be Batman and how they develop the character would be shown. so why would he want to do that again in TDK? also Joker is a character who pushes Batman to his limits and thats why he was the main focus point in TDK as also he is one of the most iconic comic book villains.

The plot holes and inconsistencies, as well as the unbalanced performances, were sure as hell pushing me to the limit. I think I felt more aggravated leaving the theater than Batman did throughout the entire film.

CaptainMcMulla
11th May 2009, 21:48
Which brings me to another point...

These officers/medical guys should know that the Joker is one murderous trickster. Yet he's in an average cell, they don't even notice the glass behind him when he enters said cell, and they react stupidly when they should know there's gonna be trouble after that criminal complains of pain.

That is called an "Action Code" i know this because i do Media studies.

Drazar
11th May 2009, 21:48
I've been repeatedly viewing The Dark Knight, and I've found that my enjoyment is slightly dipping. Not only do I detest the brighter look of Gotham (I love how Batman Begins gave us a more comprehensive look of poverty and the Narrows), but I've found several gaping flaws that are difficult to simply ignore. It is one of the best Batman films, no doubt, but I'm starting to like the animated episodes more, in addition to Batman Begins. It feels too clean, sterile - there are few haunting images, and a messy climax strikes down the potential of the film greatly. Not only does Nolan repeat Spider-Man 3's mistake by introducing a beloved villain in the final stretch, but he doesn't offer enough time for Dent to truly, deeply transform. Ending it off with a death was also unwise, and it felt heavily convoluted.

Gotham can be portrayed in 2 ways:
1) Dirty city that is corrupted
2) Clean looking city which is dirty in the inside.

Now Nolan DID NOT repeat the mistakes Sam Raimi did with Venom. Harvey Dent is the backbone of the film, providing alot of passion and showing his darker side. Venom in SM3 was out of character, whiny whimp and whatnot. Nolan was loyal with Two-Face and made him an anti-hero guy, which he partially is.


The city doesn’t take notice when a school bus rams into a bank and staying there for about some three minutes, rejoins the flowing traffic leaving a gaping hole in a smoking building behind. The bus takes no apparent damage, either, which is odd as fortified bank walls are typically fairly strong.

Joker plans everything perfectly, those police cars were just arriviing when Joker left the building with the school buss, because thats what Joker is. A master schemer. The bus didn't take damage indeed, but it is a minor issue for me really.


You have to take some leaps in logic to guess why the Joker was able to do everything he did in high-security areas that would be incredibly difficult to access, even with the mob on his side. It's also odd that the cops never took his face paint off for a more comprehensive study of his features for ID.

What would these high-security areas be that you speak of? Also why would they need to wash off the face paint when they couldn't get anything from the fingerprints? Even Batman couldn't get anything from Joker's face with the batcomputer.


So, the Gotham Honor Guard didn't notice the heavily scarred newcomer and his creepy friends?

They didn't look creepy, and would you instantly go and attack someone who has a glascow smile? We could presume almost the whole row was of Joker's goons and so on, and he was having a low face so yeah, you can't simply jump to conclusions due to looks. :p And yeah everyone was excepting snipers from the roofs which is YET another way to show how shceming the Joker truly is. ;)


I could pass up the fact that all mobile phones were omitting omni-directional high frequency pulses during the end of the movie, but there was no way that there were enough phones to generate an accurate realtime 3D structure of an entire building and its complex structures! It wouldn’t hurt to have Batman wear a large pulse generator gadget on his belt you know.

Well this is a comic world and we have Lucious Fox, even Nolan has to take some comic fantasy into here. =p


The Chinese accountant sub plot. Why did the movie waste so much time on this mob banker? He wasn’t menacing. He wasn’t interesting. He was a banker. A banker that Batman flew across the world to get in a terribly contrived sequence involving a hot air balloon and south Korean smugglers. Yawn. They should have cut it out.


No way they should have cutten that man! It shows how Batman has no jurisdictions, it shows how determined he is to get the mobster and so forth. The chinese man was a key feature to lock up the mafia, it was an awesome short action sequence and should have never been removed. Also it wans't a hot air balloon, just check Skyhook on wikipedia. Its something real that was used during vietnam wars.


Are we really supposed to believe that someone who kills his entire crew during/after one job is a force to be reckoned with in the criminal underworld? a) He’d need to be constantly out working to recruit new help. b) He’d be gradually killing off all the best “muscle” in the criminal underworld (or the worst, then there goes the reputation…) c) How do you recruit new guys onto a team where all the other guys died? Doesn’t that, like, tarnish your reputation a little?

Since when did a bunch of small timers know anything about the mafia bosses? You think theres some newspage which tells everything about everysingle mafia guy?


Who do we believe when Dent and Gordon squabble about the trust-worthiness of various police officers? Later, as we follow Harvey Dent on his descent into vengeance, sorry, but who cares? We didn’t see the officers driving the hostages around, so is this really supposed to resonate as a betrayal of trust? Had the movie introduced us to some of the officers as characters, maybe we’d at least have some emotional stake in their deaths, or something. No offense, but Rachel's death scene was also slightly disappointing, largely due to the fact that the new actor for Rachel was no better than Holmes.

I found Katie Holmes acting horrible, Maggie Gyllenhaal is a good actor but had a horrible hair style for this movie for some reason. Now the 2 police offers, i forgot their names so lets say "female cop" and "bald old cop" to avoid confusion. We learn from the very beginning that the female cop's mother was ill, and Maroni uses this as an advantage as she needs help with the hospital bills. The whole "Gordon's unit is corrupted" is just to show how LOW Gotham has sink and why gotham NEEDS Batman. Also we did see the bald old man driving Dent away, this happens right after they capture the Joker.


As excellent as Heath Ledger was in portraying The Joker, I found Christian Bale’s performance as Batman to be missing the subtleties that allow the audience to sympathize with someone in turmoil over their moral choices. How is it that I could watch something as mediocre as “Die Hard 2,” see Bruce Willis crying over the plane that is crashed into the runway by the bad guys, and somehow like his character more than Bruce Wayne/Batman?

Thats personal preverse buddy, i loved how sad he was there sitting in his room when Rachel died. I just loved the emotion hans zimmer's music did.


Harvey Dent is supposedly Batman's choice to represent good and "replace" him, but he hosts a shady fundraiser with Dent that shady millionaires contribute to, and I'd imagine that some of the public would be greatly confused about him claiming to be Batman in order to lure the Joker, his explanations afterward notwithstanding.

Eh what? I don't see what your trying to complain here but right after Joker gets captured Harvey tells the media "we captured gordon, and i excepted Batman to save my ass *laughs*".


Furthermore, Two-Face looked unrealistic. His one eye is perfectly clear? He shouldn't even be able to talk properly if you look at his mouth. It would have been more frightening if they used less CGI and more of a garbled tone, less clean clothes and more of a broken man who just doesn't care. I wasn't crazy over the design.

It was fairly realisitc design from a fire burn victim, also 50% of his clothes were dirty, that fits the Two-Face style. ;)


Once more, Bale tries too hard with the voice. I loved it when Batman used fear more in the first film, but it's used a lot less in this one. It almost stripped the character of one of his most intriguing methods of operation. Batman's interrogation scene, while well-acted, was also a a downer. He uses his strength way more than his wits. If I hadn't read the comics, I wouldn't know why he's supposedly such an intelligent man and a first-class detective. He appears in scenes way too often with no explanation. I want to know how he finds the location and how he reaches it.

Batman ALWAYS apepars in scenes with no explanation, thats what Batman is, he IS the shadow. This for you is prolly a problem in comics too but how does he do it? Well hes the god damn Batman. =p Also your forgetting this show's Batman's early ears and Batman is pretty violent with his interrogations, he doesn't even bluff when he says he will break people's arms. :X Batman can't be calm and smooth when Joker is his 1st to come crazy lunatic he faces off that is something so new. I personally liked Bale's batvoice but he needs to develop a more of a dirty harry voice tbh.


The multiple Batman story was waaaay underused and tacked-on. As was the legal goofs surrounding the fact that Lau was a foreign national illegally being interrogated and sent to jail. No mention of the Chinese protesting these actions by America.

If you feel so, i liked it.


I knew Gary Oldman was alive. So maybe this can't actually be characterized as something that "sucked about The Dark Knight" since most people seem to have been fooled. But I'm listing it anyway. To me, it was blatantly obvious that Oldman was not dead the entire time. Reasons why:

* He had no "Ahhh, I'm dying" scene. There was just a gunshot and he's down. Then he had no funeral or anything like that.
* When they told his family about his death, it became obvious that he was faking his death in order to protect him and his family from being targeted by The Joker.
* He's Gary motha****in' Oldman. They're not just gonna kill him like that with hardly a mention.

The character's last name is Gordon, and if you've ever seen a Batman movie you should have known the second he appeared in Batman Begins that he was destined to become Commissioner Gordon, which he hadn't yet.

Nolan always has a twist on his movie, i presume the twist on this movie was just way too obvious for us Batfans. ;)


Batman could save Rachel from falling from a freakin' tower when the environment was way more uncertain, and yet he couldn't save Dent from falling when the circumstances were largely the same. It felt too anti-climatic, and the blaring music was distracting at times. I can't say that I liked the fast-moving, rough action sequences that offered no sense of perspective or clarity.

Are you forgetting he was tired, shot in the stomache and was almost falling out himself? It was a miracle he could run away after that.


I feel that this film relied way too much on Ledger, and it under-used some of the supporting characters. I felt no chemistry between Dent and Rachel. Their relationship was never fully explored, and it just didn't work at times.

If you feel that way, i saw some passion between them tbh, maybe its because i was following the viral market and the actors did some 2-3 min video clips. =p


In the first Batman movie, Batman Begins, the story clearly took place in a city that was unlike any other city in North Amer*ica. It didn't look like New York, Toronto, Chicago, or Seat*tle. It looked like the fic*ti*tious city of Gotham. In The Dark Knight, it was clearly shot in the city of Chicago. There was the ele*vated train tracks and the river that runs through the city. The only thing that was miss*ing was a shot of Oprah and Sted*man shar*ing a hot dog watch*ing a ball game at Wrigley field. It didn't look any*thing at all like the Gotham in Batman Begins.

Yeah i hear this alot but like i said, theres 2 ways to portray Gotham:
1) Dirty dirty
2) Clean from the outside, dirty in the inside.


To save Com*mis*sioner Gordon's son, Batman pushes Harvey Dent off a build*ing, killing him in the process. This went against almost every*thing Batman has ever stood for since he was cre*ated decades ago. Batman does not kill. If he is going to kill Two-​Face, why doesn't he also kill the Joker, who arguably endangered more lives than the son of Gordon?

Batman wasn't there to kill off Two-Face on purpose, he rushed because he had to save an innocent live. Was it Batman who gave two-face the gun? No. Was it Batman who told to kill civillians to Two-Face? Nope. There are no happy endings to crime, and it showed the fall for Harvey Dent. Batman is againts killing people on purpose, and he didn't kill Two-Face on purpose.

PS. Very good post btw, i enjoyed reading it.:cool:

CaptainMcMulla
11th May 2009, 21:49
The plot holes and inconsistencies, as well as the unbalanced performances, were sure as hell pushing me to the limit. I think I felt more aggravated leaving the theater than Batman did throughout the entire film.

Did you leave the theatre?

Abeja
11th May 2009, 21:49
I knew Gordon didnt die because in the trailer he destroyed the batsignal, and he hadnt yet in the movie.

I agree with alot of what you said. I enjoy Batman Begins a whole lot cause its simpler and feels like a Year One movie. I loved the story, how they used the villains, and how Batman was portrayed. I even liked how they used Commissioner Loeb and Detective Flass. Alot of Year One moments is why I like BB a whole lot more. I also love how they introduced Batmans claws or whatever.

You should remember tho that when Joker hits that bank, it isnt the first job he does. Batman says when he gets there "Him again", and even the final scene in BB.
I really didnt like the camera work on the fighting. They did it in BB, and they did it here too. Its almost the camera man was fighting through a crowd to get a glimpse of Batman.

And it might have been the theater or my hearing, but the whole movie the dialogue sounds seemed so much lower than the movie.

I liked how they did Two-Face, before the ending i was already thinking about Batman 3 with him. The ending was kinda lame. I as well didnt like Gordon and Dent fighting over dirty cops. That scene on the roof before Batman goes to China, was taken straight from Long Halloween.

Also, i had heard the Batpod was really hard to handle, and you can kinda tell. To me, some of the scenes looked like it was going really slow.

angleslam99
11th May 2009, 21:49
Also I find it extremely hard to believe that Ramirez (the crooked cop who lived), Gordon's wife AND kids would all keep their mouths shut about Harvey Dent's turn to evil. There's no way they could keep Harvey's actions under the table.

Ensanguined Walls
11th May 2009, 21:51
Also, why does Gotham never call in the feds or some professional/uncover agents? I'd quarantine a city like that.

CaptainMcMulla
11th May 2009, 21:52
Corrupted city.

Drazar
11th May 2009, 21:54
Also I find it extremely hard to believe that Ramirez (the crooked cop who lived), Gordon's wife AND kids would all keep their mouths shut about Harvey Dent's turn to evil. There's no way they could keep Harvey's actions under the table.

Thats something Batman 3 will be about, its all about the future baby.

Ensanguined Walls
11th May 2009, 21:56
Also, why does Gotham never call in the feds or some professional/uncover agents? I'd quarantine a city like that.

EliteF50
11th May 2009, 21:59
Is Batman 3 confirmed?

angleslam99
11th May 2009, 21:59
Is Batman 3 confirmed?

Nope

Drazar
11th May 2009, 22:00
Yep. Nolan made a deal with Warner Brothers that if they support all the movie he wants for his next movie Inception (starring Leonardo dicaprio) sci-fi click, he promises to make Batman 3.

He, David S. Goyer and Jonathan Nolan are planning on the story now, 1 thing is confirmed tho. ;)
NO Batnipples!

Ensanguined Walls
11th May 2009, 22:06
Gotham can be portrayed in 2 ways:
1) Dirty city that is corrupted
2) Clean looking city which is dirty in the inside.

Now Nolan DID NOT repeat the mistakes Sam Raimi did with Venom. Harvey Dent is the backbone of the film, providing alot of passion and showing his darker side. Venom in SM3 was out of character, whiny whimp and whatnot. Nolan was loyal with Two-Face and made him an anti-hero guy, which he partially is.

However, we were shown a city in BB that managed to make a realistic city that still had an otherwordly quality to it, while still making us feel that it was organic and dangerous. The change from that to TDK was jarring, particularly because you could see Chicago-specific areas if you paused at the correct movement.

I liked Harvey Dent; I didn't like his quick transformation into Two-Face, because they focused more on the violence than reflection. What I meant with the Venom comparison is that he's introduced as the villain too close to the end, and he dies so fast (like Venom) that the impact suffers. Nolan's camera angle didn't show us any emotion from Harvey in his final moments as he fell; it had no clarity or perspective.



Joker plans everything perfectly, those police cars were just arriviing when Joker left the building with the school buss, because thats what Joker is. A master schemer. The bus didn't take damage indeed, but it is a minor issue for me really.

Yet they didn't have the sense to follow the slower-moving buses that clearly went through the goddamn bank walls? The cops were close enough to see the smoke and dust coming off of the bus, which should have been a no-brainer.



What would these high-security areas be that you speak of? Also why would they need to wash off the face paint when they couldn't get anything from the fingerprints? Even Batman couldn't get anything from Joker's face with the batcomputer.

An entire hospital, for one, and a high-security area for a memorial.



They didn't look creepy, and would you instantly go and attack someone who has a glascow smile? We could presume almost the whole row was of Joker's goons and so on, and he was having a low face so yeah, you can't simply jump to conclusions due to looks. :p And yeah everyone was excepting snipers from the roofs which is YET another way to show how shceming the Joker truly is. ;)

Honor Guards typically know each other well. If an unfamiliar guy with a Glasgow smile walked in, I'd be a little weary. Also, isn't the Joker against elaborate schemes? His plots felt so orderly; he targeted significant figures.


Well this is a comic world and we have Lucious Fox, even Nolan has to take some comic fantasy into here. =p

Meh, with all of the other realistic gadgets that Fox carefully explained, you would think that they would explain the sonar more. It was a lazy tack-on. Fox suddenly gains compassion, even when the gadgets he regularly manufactures could also maim and invade privacy?



No way they should have cutten that man! It shows how Batman has no jurisdictions, it shows how determined he is to get the mobster and so forth. The chinese man was a key feature to lock up the mafia, it was an awesome short action sequence and should have never been removed. Also it wans't a hot air balloon, just check Skyhook on wikipedia. Its something real that was used during vietnam wars.

Meh. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.



Since when did a bunch of small timers know anything about the mafia bosses? You think theres some newspage which tells everything about everysingle mafia guy?

Everyone who works for the Joker usually dies or gets injured. Word probably spread through the mob ranks that he was a crazy dude who had no sense of old-style mob honor.


I found Katie Holmes acting horrible, Maggie Gyllenhaal is a good actor but had a horrible hair style for this movie for some reason. Now the 2 police offers, i forgot their names so lets say "female cop" and "bald old cop" to avoid confusion. We learn from the very beginning that the female cop's mother was ill, and Maroni uses this as an advantage as she needs help with the hospital bills. The whole "Gordon's unit is corrupted" is just to show how LOW Gotham has sink and why gotham NEEDS Batman. Also we did see the bald old man driving Dent away, this happens right after they capture the Joker.

They tell us, but they don't show those emotional scenes enough, which constitute the climax of the tragic relationship. We're just told what happens and we see very little of the events, of them being kidnapped fully and tied up, etc.


Thats personal preverse buddy, i loved how sad he was there sitting in his room when Rachel died. I just loved the emotion hans zimmer's music did.

Meh.

It was fairly realisitc design from a fire burn victim, also 50% of his clothes were dirty, that fits the Two-Face style. ;)

His mouth would not have enabled him to speak so clearly. Burns/deep muscle cuts likes that are PAINFUL. He didn't show any pain at all. It would have been a nice touch to see him occasional show pain. He should not have been able to drink without reacting in agony.


Batman ALWAYS apepars in scenes with no explanation, thats what Batman is, he IS the shadow. This for you is prolly a problem in comics too but how does he do it? Well hes the god damn Batman. =p Also your forgetting this show's Batman's early ears and Batman is pretty violent with his interrogations, he doesn't even bluff when he says he will break people's arms. :X Batman can't be calm and smooth when Joker is his 1st to come crazy lunatic he faces off that is something so new. I personally liked Bale's batvoice but he needs to develop a more of a dirty harry voice tbh.

He just lost it too quickly. Didn't his training in BB teach discipline in the middle of chaos?

Nolan always has a twist on his movie, i presume the twist on this movie was just way too obvious for us Batfans. ;)

Indeed.


Are you forgetting he was tired, shot in the stomache and was almost falling out himself? It was a miracle he could run away after that.

Didn't he survive because the chest plate deflected the bullet? He just pretended to be taken out so his surprise attack would work.

If you feel that way, i saw some passion between them tbh, maybe its because i was following the viral market and the actors did some 2-3 min video clips. =p

It felt too truncated in the film, tbh.


Yeah i hear this alot but like i said, theres 2 ways to portray Gotham:
1) Dirty dirty
2) Clean from the outside, dirty in the inside.

It just looked like any normal city. Gotham was realistic, but it still had a gritty, otherworldly feel at times.


Batman wasn't there to kill off Two-Face on purpose, he rushed because he had to save an innocent live. Was it Batman who gave two-face the gun? No. Was it Batman who told to kill civillians to Two-Face? Nope. There are no happy endings to crime, and it showed the fall for Harvey Dent. Batman is againts killing people on purpose, and he didn't kill Two-Face on purpose.

He didn't seem to care about making sure he had his gadgets ready to latch onto Harvey to shorten his fall.

PS. Very good post btw, i enjoyed reading it.:cool:

Thanks.

Drazar
11th May 2009, 22:08
Honestly If you want me to reply to your bold statements atleast edit your post so i can quote them easily. >_<

Ensanguined Walls
11th May 2009, 22:10
Gotham can be portrayed in 2 ways:
1) Dirty city that is corrupted
2) Clean looking city which is dirty in the inside.

Now Nolan DID NOT repeat the mistakes Sam Raimi did with Venom. Harvey Dent is the backbone of the film, providing alot of passion and showing his darker side. Venom in SM3 was out of character, whiny whimp and whatnot. Nolan was loyal with Two-Face and made him an anti-hero guy, which he partially is.

However, we were shown a city in BB that managed to make a realistic city that still had an otherwordly quality to it, while still making us feel that it was organic and dangerous. The change from that to TDK was jarring, particularly because you could see Chicago-specific areas if you paused at the correct movement.

I liked Harvey Dent; I didn't like his quick transformation into Two-Face, because they focused more on the violence than reflection. What I meant with the Venom comparison is that he's introduced as the villain too close to the end, and he dies so fast (like Venom) that the impact suffers. Nolan's camera angle didn't show us any emotion from Harvey in his final moments as he fell; it had no clarity or perspective.



Joker plans everything perfectly, those police cars were just arriviing when Joker left the building with the school buss, because thats what Joker is. A master schemer. The bus didn't take damage indeed, but it is a minor issue for me really.

Yet they didn't have the sense to follow the slower-moving buses that clearly went through the goddamn bank walls? The cops were close enough to see the smoke and dust coming off of the bus, which should have been a no-brainer.



What would these high-security areas be that you speak of? Also why would they need to wash off the face paint when they couldn't get anything from the fingerprints? Even Batman couldn't get anything from Joker's face with the batcomputer.

An entire hospital, for one, and a high-security area for a memorial.



They didn't look creepy, and would you instantly go and attack someone who has a glascow smile? We could presume almost the whole row was of Joker's goons and so on, and he was having a low face so yeah, you can't simply jump to conclusions due to looks. And yeah everyone was excepting snipers from the roofs which is YET another way to show how shceming the Joker truly is.

Honor Guards typically know each other well. If an unfamiliar guy with a Glasgow smile walked in, I'd be a little weary. Also, isn't the Joker against elaborate schemes? His plots felt so orderly; he targeted significant figures.


Well this is a comic world and we have Lucious Fox, even Nolan has to take some comic fantasy into here. =p

Meh, with all of the other realistic gadgets that Fox carefully explained, you would think that they would explain the sonar more. It was a lazy tack-on. Fox suddenly gains compassion, even when the gadgets he regularly manufactures could also maim and invade privacy?



No way they should have cutten that man! It shows how Batman has no jurisdictions, it shows how determined he is to get the mobster and so forth. The chinese man was a key feature to lock up the mafia, it was an awesome short action sequence and should have never been removed. Also it wans't a hot air balloon, just check Skyhook on wikipedia. Its something real that was used during vietnam wars.

Meh. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.



Since when did a bunch of small timers know anything about the mafia bosses? You think theres some newspage which tells everything about everysingle mafia guy?

Everyone who works for the Joker usually dies or gets injured. Word probably spread through the mob ranks that he was a crazy dude who had no sense of old-style mob honor.


I found Katie Holmes acting horrible, Maggie Gyllenhaal is a good actor but had a horrible hair style for this movie for some reason. Now the 2 police offers, i forgot their names so lets say "female cop" and "bald old cop" to avoid confusion. We learn from the very beginning that the female cop's mother was ill, and Maroni uses this as an advantage as she needs help with the hospital bills. The whole "Gordon's unit is corrupted" is just to show how LOW Gotham has sink and why gotham NEEDS Batman. Also we did see the bald old man driving Dent away, this happens right after they capture the Joker.

They tell us, but they don't show those emotional scenes enough, which constitute the climax of the tragic relationship. We're just told what happens and we see very little of the events, of them being kidnapped fully and tied up, etc.


Thats personal preverse buddy, i loved how sad he was there sitting in his room when Rachel died. I just loved the emotion hans zimmer's music did.

Meh.

It was fairly realisitc design from a fire burn victim, also 50% of his clothes were dirty, that fits the Two-Face style.

His mouth would not have enabled him to speak so clearly. Burns/deep muscle cuts likes that are PAINFUL. He didn't show any pain at all. It would have been a nice touch to see him occasional show pain. He should not have been able to drink without reacting in agony.


Batman ALWAYS apepars in scenes with no explanation, thats what Batman is, he IS the shadow. This for you is prolly a problem in comics too but how does he do it? Well hes the god damn Batman. =p Also your forgetting this show's Batman's early ears and Batman is pretty violent with his interrogations, he doesn't even bluff when he says he will break people's arms. :X Batman can't be calm and smooth when Joker is his 1st to come crazy lunatic he faces off that is something so new. I personally liked Bale's batvoice but he needs to develop a more of a dirty harry voice tbh.

He just lost it too quickly. Didn't his training in BB teach discipline in the middle of chaos?

Nolan always has a twist on his movie, i presume the twist on this movie was just way too obvious for us Batfans.

Indeed.


Are you forgetting he was tired, shot in the stomache and was almost falling out himself? It was a miracle he could run away after that.

Didn't he survive because the chest plate deflected the bullet? He just pretended to be taken out so his surprise attack would work.

If you feel that way, i saw some passion between them tbh, maybe its because i was following the viral market and the actors did some 2-3 min video clips. =p

It felt too truncated in the film, tbh.


Yeah i hear this alot but like i said, theres 2 ways to portray Gotham:
1) Dirty dirty
2) Clean from the outside, dirty in the inside.

It just looked like any normal city. Gotham was realistic, but it still had a gritty, otherworldly feel at times.


Batman wasn't there to kill off Two-Face on purpose, he rushed because he had to save an innocent live. Was it Batman who gave two-face the gun? No. Was it Batman who told to kill civillians to Two-Face? Nope. There are no happy endings to crime, and it showed the fall for Harvey Dent. Batman is againts killing people on purpose, and he didn't kill Two-Face on purpose.

He didn't seem to care about making sure he had his gadgets ready to latch onto Harvey to shorten his fall.

PS. Very good post btw, i enjoyed reading it.
Thanks.

Drazar
11th May 2009, 22:11
Pleas just edit the above one with your sentences, i can easily see what you talk and ill reply to that, thank you. :P

Abeja
11th May 2009, 22:11
Yeah Batman using his grapple to save Joker who fell a whole lot further, he could have easily saved Harvey. IDK this movie was great and alot of people say that, but i enjoyed Batman Begins alot more i think.

Ensanguined Walls
11th May 2009, 22:14
As some critics noted, I don't think Nolan understands the essential silliness of the premise. The direction seems almost self-serious and pretentious at times, like this was a fantasy-style Godfather-meets-superhero instead of a film. It was primarily carried by Ledger's performance; otherwise, it would have been OK. They introduce so many characters and subplots that aren't developed enough (Batman inspiring copies, for one), and I easily felt like some filler scenes could have been taken out to include more character development.

The Animated Series was dark and brooding, but it never lost touch of its slightly comedic roots, its otherworldly qualities and yet perplexing realism. The Dark Knight is too erratic; it doesn't know what it wants to do. It seems more chaotic in its thin themes of morality than the Joker. It's just a short mortality scene, a shaky action set, etc.

Drazar
11th May 2009, 22:14
Yeah Batman using his grapple to save Joker who fell a whole lot further, he could have easily saved Harvey. IDK this movie was great and alot of people say that, but i enjoyed Batman Begins alot more i think.

How? He had 1 hand on the gordon's son and the other on the edge to hold himself up? Where he had the chance to save Two-Face?

Ensanguined Walls
11th May 2009, 22:16
Draz:

Gotham can be portrayed in 2 ways:
1) Dirty city that is corrupted
2) Clean looking city which is dirty in the inside.

However, we were shown a city in BB that managed to make a realistic city that still had an otherwordly quality to it, while still making us feel that it was organic and dangerous. The change from that to TDK was jarring, particularly because you could see Chicago-specific areas if you paused at the correct movement.

I liked Harvey Dent; I didn't like his quick transformation into Two-Face, because they focused more on the violence than reflection. What I meant with the Venom comparison is that he's introduced as the villain too close to the end, and he dies so fast (like Venom) that the impact suffers. Nolan's camera angle didn't show us any emotion from Harvey in his final moments as he fell; it had no clarity or perspective.

Yet they didn't have the sense to follow the slower-moving buses that clearly went through the goddamn bank walls? The cops were close enough to see the smoke and dust coming off of the bus, which should have been a no-brainer.

An entire hospital, for one, and a high-security area for a memorial.

Honor Guards typically know each other well. If an unfamiliar guy with a Glasgow smile walked in, I'd be a little weary. Also, isn't the Joker against elaborate schemes? His plots felt so orderly; he targeted significant figures.

Meh, with all of the other realistic gadgets that Fox carefully explained, you would think that they would explain the sonar more. It was a lazy tack-on. Fox suddenly gains compassion, even when the gadgets he regularly manufactures could also maim and invade privacy?

Everyone who works for the Joker usually dies or gets injured. Word probably spread through the mob ranks that he was a crazy dude who had no sense of old-style mob honor.

They tell us, but they don't show those emotional scenes enough, which constitute the climax of the tragic relationship. We're just told what happens and we see very little of the events, of them being kidnapped fully and tied up, etc.

His mouth would not have enabled him to speak so clearly. Burns/deep muscle cuts likes that are PAINFUL. He didn't show any pain at all. It would have been a nice touch to see him occasional show pain. He should not have been able to drink without reacting in agony.

He just lost it too quickly. Didn't his training in BB teach discipline in the middle of chaos?

Didn't he survive because the chest plate deflected the bullet? He just pretended to be taken out so his surprise attack would work.
It felt too truncated in the film, tbh.

It just looked like any normal city. Gotham was realistic, but it still had a gritty, otherworldly feel at times.

He didn't seem to care about making sure he had his gadgets ready to latch onto Harvey to shorten his fall.

Thanks.

Mckflicus
11th May 2009, 22:17
Drazar I wholeheartedly agree with all of your answers and truly did love The Dark Knight. Everything contested with it can be debated with a fresh perspective. I only had one teeny tiny qualm with the movie. ACtually, it was with a cut scene (assuming it was cut). The joker first tries to get Batman to be unmasked and kill him, and then all of a sudden has a change of heart and wants to keep him around. Now in the script, it talks about how the joker was escaping from wayne's penthouse in a car, felt blood on his forehead that was caused by Batman bashing him, and had an exhilirated look on his face. This scene can be seen as a picture of heath ledger in a car that was revealed in one of the viral marketing build ups. This scene would've bridged that and made the movie that much better because it's more of the joker that we would've seen. If Nolan just had this scene as well in the movie, it would've been perfect.

Actually now that I've started, I noticed how exposed Batman was in this film as opposed to the first. In the first one, he was always in the shadows, never revealing himself and more an urban legend. In TDK, he's all out in the open from the beginning to the end. He's never in the shadows and people could see him coming. However I just chalk it up to him just being more aggressive in this movie than in the first one. It didn't bother me, it was just an observation.

Ensanguined Walls
11th May 2009, 22:17
How? He had 1 hand on the gordon's son and the other on the edge to hold himself up? Where he had the chance to save Two-Face?

With all of his training and discipline, it should have been simple. He normally uses one hand to activate a gadget (which weren't featured enough in this movie, to be perfectly honest), but he didn't necessarily have to catch Harvey. Just use one hand to activate his gadget and lessen the impact so that he would only be momentarily knocked out at a maximum.

Ensanguined Walls
11th May 2009, 22:19
Isn't it odd that Maroni, who was carelessly thrown down by Batman (how did he know the fall would not have broken Maroni's neck?) survived, while a lesser fall killed Two-Face?

angleslam99
11th May 2009, 22:24
Actually now that I've started, I noticed how exposed Batman was in this film as opposed to the first. In the first one, he was always in the shadows, never revealing himself and more an urban legend. In TDK, he's all out in the open from the beginning to the end. He's never in the shadows and people could see him coming. However I just chalk it up to him just being more aggressive in this movie than in the first one. It didn't bother me, it was just an observation.

Yeah that bothered me a lot. Like the club scene where Batman just plows through a bunch of Maroni's thugs and just drops Maroni off a balcony like nothing. Way too aggressive. I'm surprised Batman didn't kill anyone with all his shenanigans.

He has missiles or whatever on his Bat-pod and plowed through several cars in front of kids. What if there had been people in those parked cars? Remember Batman kicking the SWAT officer off the building that eventually pulled several officers with him? Even though they were tied at the foot to the rope, it was an extreme risk Batman made. What if the rope snapped? That's not Batman to me. Besides why did Batman attack the officers in the first place? Why not just disarm them instead of punching them and throwing them off buildings? The sticky grenade gun thing? Batman doesn't need this stuff. Nolan made this too much of an action movie than a Batman movie which irritates me.

Drazar
11th May 2009, 22:26
Draz:

Gotham can be portrayed in 2 ways:
1) Dirty city that is corrupted
2) Clean looking city which is dirty in the inside.

However, we were shown a city in BB that managed to make a realistic city that still had an otherwordly quality to it, while still making us feel that it was organic and dangerous. The change from that to TDK was jarring, particularly because you could see Chicago-specific areas if you paused at the correct movement.

As i say, 2 ways to define it. They wanted to show a shining gotham now that Batman and Harvey Dent had attacked the criminal underworld.


I liked Harvey Dent; I didn't like his quick transformation into Two-Face, because they focused more on the violence than reflection. What I meant with the Venom comparison is that he's introduced as the villain too close to the end, and he dies so fast (like Venom) that the impact suffers. Nolan's camera angle didn't show us any emotion from Harvey in his final moments as he fell; it had no clarity or perspective.

Venom was barely on the movie, and what was Venoms motivation again? Ah yeah, going to church to pray god to kill peter parker, and when he gets the symbiote he decides to kidnap mary-jane while he could have just killed her.:rolleyes: We atleast see Two-Face going to a personal hunt, have him have talks with Joker where he gets corrupted and the beatiful finale where you see this vengeful spirit claiming what is right and fair.


Yet they didn't have the sense to follow the slower-moving buses that clearly went through the goddamn bank walls? The cops were close enough to see the smoke and dust coming off of the bus, which should have been a no-brainer.

There was only 1 bus and like i said, if you look on the scene the cops clearly weren't even in an eye range to see the bus coming from there. And by the time they would have been informed, Joker was alwasy away. ;) Master schemer.


An entire hospital, for one, and a high-security area for a memorial.

Joker disguised as a nurse to get to the hospital, totally unpredictable AND THUS effective move. Also Joker goons were all over the high-security area for memorial as you saw.


Honor Guards typically know each other well. If an unfamiliar guy with a Glasgow smile walked in, I'd be a little weary. Also, isn't the Joker against elaborate schemes? His plots felt so orderly; he targeted significant figures.

The police were accepting Joker to snipe from the roof, thats why there was that clock to set up a curtain up to have the snipers waste a reload time so he could shoot the mayor, and he had stolen like 15 outfits? That means he had 14 goons with him. :p


Meh, with all of the other realistic gadgets that Fox carefully explained, you would think that they would explain the sonar more. It was a lazy tack-on. Fox suddenly gains compassion, even when the gadgets he regularly manufactures could also maim and invade privacy?


While he might have manufactured devices for Bruce Wayne to use, he had his own morals of HIMSELF spying on thousands of people. And he did promise to help Batman to get down Joker, but not something he would do every evening. ;/


Everyone who works for the Joker usually dies or gets injured. Word probably spread through the mob ranks that he was a crazy dude who had no sense of old-style mob honor.

Okay how do they know? If joker kills all the thugs, who is there to spread the word? They are all unknown small-timers, how can they have any connection to anyone?


They tell us, but they don't show those emotional scenes enough, which constitute the climax of the tragic relationship. We're just told what happens and we see very little of the events, of them being kidnapped fully and tied up, etc.

You really wanted a scene where they get tied up? Honestly? :P


His mouth would not have enabled him to speak so clearly. Burns/deep muscle cuts likes that are PAINFUL. He didn't show any pain at all. It would have been a nice touch to see him occasional show pain. He should not have been able to drink without reacting in agony.


He was so god damn pissed off he had no time to say "aouchie" :P Thats what Two-Face was about, the hunger for vengeance.


He just lost it too quickly. Didn't his training in BB teach discipline in the middle of chaos?

Really again this is to show YOUNG Batman, when he found out Rachel was there also kidnapped, ofcourse he snapped. He needed to get the answers asap and thus used force, if it wasn't that it was him telling to break bones, in which Joker's case: it would have happened.


Didn't he survive because the chest plate deflected the bullet? He just pretended to be taken out so his surprise attack would work.
It felt too truncated in the film, tbh.

No he wasn't pretending there. He was tired, exhausted and nearly out of strenght. This is even seen in his last talk with Joker, he was so exhausted there.



He didn't seem to care about making sure he had his gadgets ready to latch onto Harvey to shorten his fall.

Because his focus was to save the kid. He had 1 hand to hold himself, and the other for the Kid. What can a tired man wearing a heavy suit really do in a matter of seconds?

There we go, just don't quote the whole convo so i can reply. :)

Ensanguined Walls
11th May 2009, 22:27
Yeah that bothered me a lot. Like the club scene where Batman just plows through a bunch of Maroni's thugs and just drops Maroni off a balcony like nothing. Way too aggressive. I'm surprised Batman didn't kill anyone with all his shenanigans.

He has missiles or whatever on his Bat-pod and plowed through several cars in front of kids. What if there had been people in those parked cars? Remember Batman kicking the SWAT officer off the building that eventually pulled several officers with him? Even though they were tied at the foot to the rope, it was an extreme risk Batman made. What if the rope snapped? That's not Batman to me. Besides why did Batman attack the officers in the first place? Why not just disarm them instead of punching them and throwing them off buildings? The sticky grenade gun thing? Batman doesn't need this stuff. Nolan made this too much of an action movie than a Batman movie which irritates me.

As I said, I wouldn't know why he's such a brilliant detective/shadow worker if I hadn't seen TAS or read the comics. He's way too aggressive in too many scenes, even without the Joker around.

Drazar
11th May 2009, 22:27
Isn't it odd that Maroni, who was carelessly thrown down by Batman (how did he know the fall would not have broken Maroni's neck?) survived, while a lesser fall killed Two-Face?

Yeah because a person falling on his feet and a person falling down with his back/neck really has the same effect on people.:rasp::rasp::rasp:

Ensanguined Walls
11th May 2009, 22:30
Yeah because a person falling on his feet and a person falling down with his back/neck really has the same effect on people.:rasp::rasp::rasp:

It depends, really, because higher falls with a less forgiving environment could kill you, no matter the direction. Batman takes way too many risks with the SWAT team, the intimidation missiles in the opening scene, etc. Harvey's fall was more direct and way shorter.

Drazar
11th May 2009, 22:33
It depends, really, because higher falls with a less forgiving environment could kill you, no matter the direction. Batman takes way too many risks with the SWAT team, the intimidation missiles in the opening scene, etc. Harvey's fall was more direct and way shorter.

Batman is about taking risks, he chose to take risks the moment he wore the cowl. And really you need to realize that Batman was exhausted for days, had gotten shut down (remember the new plate allowed him to move faster but made him more vulnurable to knives and guns), and he had to save a little child. He had no really no chance trying to throw a batarang because then Two-Face could have fallen with the kid, so he HAD to attack. He took a hold on the kid and saved him, he wasn't intentionally killing harvey dent, thus on his OWN VIEW he did not break his 1 rule. His 1 rule is to not murder on purpose.

Ensanguined Walls
11th May 2009, 22:41
Venom was barely on the movie, and what was Venoms motivation again? Ah yeah, going to church to pray god to kill peter parker, and when he gets the symbiote he decides to kidnap mary-jane while he could have just killed her. We atleast see Two-Face going to a personal hunt, have him have talks with Joker where he gets corrupted and the beatiful finale where you see this vengeful spirit claiming what is right and fair.

To be more fair, Peter humiliated him in his job, basically stole his only love, and embarrassed him several times. He kidnapped Mary-Jane to make Peter feel how terrible it was to slowly lose love, hence the less direct kidnap scene where Mary-Jane nearly does die at least twice. I just felt that, like Venom, Two-Face died too quickly with no real sense of closure.


There was only 1 bus and like i said, if you look on the scene the cops clearly weren't even in an eye range to see the bus coming from there. And by the time they would have been informed, Joker was alwasy away. Master schemer.

But the Joker despises schemers, doesn't he? He's supposed to be chaotic with no clear goal? I'm sure the cops would have noticed the bus-size holes in the wall, and civilians near the wall (I counted a few) could have looked at the numbers to get fingerprints, if possible.


Joker disguised as a nurse to get to the hospital, totally unpredictable AND THUS effective move.

So a hospital that's supposed to be high-security due to the DA being in there somehow lets an obliviously exaggerated, clown-like nurse into the room? How did he even get past this "Davis" fellow, much less the rooms? He still would have been in plain sight of civilians.


The police were accepting Joker to snipe from the roof, thats why there was that clock to set up a curtain up to have the snipers waste a reload time so he could shoot the mayor, and he had stolen like 15 outfits? That means he had 14 goons with him.

So fourteen regular guard members go missing and nobody suspects anything? No alert?


If joker kills all the thugs, who is there to spread the word? They are all unknown small-timers, how can they have any connection to anyone?

Word of mouth with the other minor thugs that the Joker targeted for recruitment.


You really wanted a scene where they get tied up? Honestly? :P

They told us too much and didn't show enough, unless it was CGI or an overdone action set piece.


He was so god damn pissed off he had no time to say "aouchie" :P Thats what Two-Face was about, the hunger for vengeance.

I have known someone who had painful skin issues. No matter how much goddamn rage that guy had, the agony would still seep through. And honestly that would have made for a more sympathetic and yet ultimately complex character: the fact that he can't speak properly, thus losing most of his charisma, and the fact that you cannot have your tender muscles exposed, talk normally, drink, and not flinch. I don't care if he's Kratos. He could not sit through such pain and not even blink.


Really again this is to show YOUNG Batman, when he found out Rachel was there also kidnapped, ofcourse he snapped. He needed to get the answers asap and thus used force, if it wasn't that it was him telling to break bones, in which Joker's case: it would have happened.

It invalidates his whole code of conduct. He just went into the beating too fast.


Because his focus was to save the kid. He had 1 hand to hold himself, and the other for the Kid. What can a tired man wearing a heavy suit really do in a matter of seconds?

Batman has done some pretty incredible athletic stunts with little fear. He has held two civilians before, I'm sure.

Mckflicus
11th May 2009, 22:42
Nobody has any comments about the cut joker scene in the car?

Ensanguined Walls
11th May 2009, 22:47
Nobody has any comments about the cut joker scene in the car?

I wonder why they even cut a thirty second scene that would have explained a lot.

Ensanguined Walls
11th May 2009, 22:49
Also, guys, I did love Ledger. Eckhart was great but underused at times. Bale was OK. Rachel Dawes must be a cursed role, because no good actress has played her thus far. Batman Begins is one of my favorite hero films, but I felt that this movie wasn't as balanced, and relied too much on the Joker.

Drazar
11th May 2009, 22:53
To be more fair, Peter humiliated him in his job, basically stole his only love, and embarrassed him several times. He kidnapped Mary-Jane to make Peter feel how terrible it was to slowly lose love, hence the less direct kidnap scene where Mary-Jane nearly does die at least twice. I just felt that, like Venom, Two-Face died too quickly with no real sense of closure.

Peter humiliated the guy in his job cuz the guy photoshopped, and the love interest (name escapes) weren't never really dating. Honestly the guy was a bloody emo and should have killed Mary-Jane to show some rage, also why DID HIS FACE COME UP when he talked? I'll tell you why: actor screen time. Also he didn't have the venom voice from the cartoons, raaaaaageeeeeee!!!!!!!!:mad2::mad2::mad2: Two-Face died as an anti-hero, and the movie ends with Batman riding to the dawn, remember Harvey's speech? The night is darkest blaa blaa blaa, but the a new dawn shall arise and stuff. :P


But the Joker despises schemers, doesn't he? He's supposed to be chaotic with no clear goal? I'm sure the cops would have noticed the bus-size holes in the wall, and civilians near the wall (I counted a few) could have looked at the numbers to get fingerprints, if possible.

That speech was just to ****-up Harvey's mind, he was the master schemer in the movie, a true force of anarchy and chaos. And sure the police couold have seen the whole but would you instantly say: AH THATS FROM A BUS, and not: hmm, wonder what car did this, certainly not a children school bus, haw haw! :P


So a hospital that's supposed to be high-security due to the DA being in there somehow lets an obliviously exaggerated, clown-like nurse into the room? How did he even get past this "Davis" fellow, much less the rooms? He still would have been in plain sight of civilians.


The civillians were running scared away as Joker had threatened them, you think they paied attention to the nurses? And yeah he got pass Davis by killing him. =p


So fourteen regular guard members go missing and nobody suspects anything? No alert?


The joker goons were wearing the guard member clothes so how could they suspect they were missing? This is no real argument! :P


Word of mouth with the other minor thugs that the Joker targeted for recruitment.

Yet who spreads the word? Since Joker kills his thugs, who is there to spread it? Since there dead. =p


I
have known someone who had painful skin issues. No matter how much goddamn rage that guy had, the agony would still seep through. And honestly that would have made for a more sympathetic and yet ultimately complex character: the fact that he can't speak properly, thus losing most of his charisma, and the fact that you cannot have your tender muscles exposed, talk normally, drink, and not flinch. I don't care if he's Kratos. He could not sit through such pain and not even blink.

Well luckily Two-Face did blink with his right eye. =p


It invalidates his whole code of conduct. He just went into the beating too fast.

When it was his loved one's life? I'd certainly do the same.


Batman has done some pretty incredible athletic stunts with little fear. He has held two civilians before, I'm sure.

With the same situation then? I doubt it, Honestly he is a mere Human he has LIMITS.


Nobody has any comments about the cut joker scene in the car?

Sure, i think they wanted to remove all the discussion between Joker and his thugs, like in the driving scene when Joker sees the batmobile it got changed from a discussion into "hmm" emote. =p Its a shame the movie couldn't had any blood because seeing a beaten up Joker would have been just chaotic. >:3 But yeah they did kinda establish why Joker didn't wanna kill Batman and reveal him anymore in the "ill blow up a hospital" phone call, where he talks about how Gotham was too boring withouth Batman so yeah.

Abeja
11th May 2009, 22:54
Forgot he had his son. Me fail.

Ensanguined Walls
11th May 2009, 22:59
Peter humiliated the guy in his job cuz the guy photoshopped, and the love interest (name escapes) weren't never really dating. Honestly the guy was a bloody emo and should have killed Mary-Jane to show some rage, also why DID HIS FACE COME UP when he talked? I'll tell you why: actor screen time. Also he didn't have the venom voice from the cartoons, raaaaaageeeeeee!!!!!!!!:mad2::mad2::mad2: Two-Face died as an anti-hero, and the movie ends with Batman riding to the dawn, remember Harvey's speech? The night is darkest blaa blaa blaa, but the a new dawn shall arise and stuff. :P



That speech was just to ****-up Harvey's mind, he was the master schemer in the movie, a true force of anarchy and chaos. And sure the police couold have seen the whole but would you instantly say: AH THATS FROM A BUS, and not: hmm, wonder what car did this, certainly not a children school bus, haw haw! :P



The civillians were running scared away as Joker had threatened them, you think they paied attention to the nurses? And yeah he got pass Davis by killing him. =p



The joker goons were wearing the guard member clothes so how could they suspect they were missing? This is no real argument! :P



Yet who spreads the word? Since Joker kills his thugs, who is there to spread it? Since there dead. =p


I

Well luckily Two-Face did blink with his right eye. =p



When it was his loved one's life? I'd certainly do the same.



With the same situation then? I doubt it, Honestly he is a mere Human he has LIMITS.



Sure, i think they wanted to remove all the discussion between Joker and his thugs, like in the driving scene when Joker sees the batmobile it got changed from a discussion into "hmm" emote. =p Its a shame the movie couldn't had any blood because seeing a beaten up Joker would have been just chaotic. >:3 But yeah they did kinda establish why Joker didn't wanna kill Batman and reveal him anymore in the "ill blow up a hospital" phone call, where he talks about how Gotham was too boring withouth Batman so yeah.

Blinking is simply not enough. You can see his raw muscles, part of his eye, and the guy never shows how painful it is. Because having half of your face blown off and then talking normally is very, very impossible. Also, they might have had the guard clothes, but they looked like completely different men.

With all of his discipline and years of work, it was frustrating to see Batman lose control over his emotions to easily. Part of the fun between the Joker and Batman is that they are intellectually equal, but the Joker was running circles around the world's supposedly best detective. This movie makes you think he's a douche doing a bad wrestler impersonation with his voice.

The Joker getting through in a ridiculous costume seems odd, especially since the security would still be tight and he was wearing paint.

Drazar
11th May 2009, 23:03
Blinking is simply not enough. You can see his raw muscles, part of his eye, and the guy never shows how painful it is. Because having half of your face blown off and then talking normally is very, very impossible. Also, they might have had the guard clothes, but they looked like completely different men.

Well he was talking on his Two-Face persona, which was ruffer then his normal. And hey this is a comic world, i mean how can a Two-Face live in the comic world where he got thrown by acid? That should have gone thru his brain and melted it.:nut: Even hyperrealism movies got their fantasy elements. And yeah since there were alot of goons as the guards, how can we not know where were they positioned? Fact is Joker got there and fooled everyone as noone knew what he looked like withouth his facepaint, and thats what identifies Joker as the Joker. :cool:


With all of his discipline and years of work, it was frustrating to see Batman lose control over his emotions to easily. Part of the fun between the Joker and Batman is that they are intellectually equal, but the Joker was running circles around the world's supposedly best detective. This movie makes you think he's a douche doing a bad wrestler impersonation with his voice.

"Why do we fall Bruce? So we can learn to pick ourselves up". This is Batman's 2nd year as Batman, he is still very young and does mistakes. At the end of the movie he pretty much becomes The Dark Knight, hence the title.


The Joker getting through in a ridiculous costume seems odd, especially since the security would still be tight and he was wearing paint.

He covered his face and had a wig, what people would have seen were his eyes. And again people were moving people OUT of the hospital and paniccing, a perfect moment for him to strike.

Zacman
12th May 2009, 01:53
I just want to say that all the new honor guard guys worked for the Joker and that I don't think Two-Face is dead. I doubt that that fall could hardly hurt Batman but yet kill Two-Face. Harvey also faked his own death in The Long Halloween one of the graphic novels that inspired the movie. I think Harvey is dead but Two-Face isn't if you know what I mean.

Ensanguined Walls
12th May 2009, 01:57
I just want to say that all the new honor guard guys worked for the Joker and that I don't think Two-Face is dead. I doubt that that fall could hardly hurt Batman but yet kill Two-Face. Harvey also faked his own death in The Long Halloween one of the graphic novels that inspired the movie. I think Harvey is dead but Two-Face isn't if you know what I mean.

Interestingly, the Two-Face coin landed on the "live" side when Harvey falls and drops it.

But he'd have to be an exceptional actor to convince Batman that he wasn't faking it, and the script does say that he breaks his neck and dies. Perhaps they'll change their minds, who knows...

DarkCrusader67
12th May 2009, 05:32
Interestingly, the Two-Face coin landed on the "live" side when Harvey falls and drops it.


Ya, but Harvey flipped the coin to judge the boy's fate, not his.

angleslam99
12th May 2009, 06:05
Ya, but Harvey flipped the coin to judge the boy's fate, not his.

The real question is, why would Harvey flip the coin for himself BEFORE the boy? I thought this was to teach Gordon a lesson? What good is the lesson if Dent had to kill himself before punishing Gordon?

vicsage
12th May 2009, 07:18
As some critics noted, I don't think Nolan understands the essential silliness of the premise. The direction seems almost self-serious and pretentious at times, like this was a fantasy-style Godfather-meets-superhero instead of a film. It was primarily carried by Ledger's performance; otherwise, it would have been OK. They introduce so many characters and subplots that aren't developed enough (Batman inspiring copies, for one), and I easily felt like some filler scenes could have been taken out to include more character development.

The Animated Series was dark and brooding, but it never lost touch of its slightly comedic roots, its otherworldly qualities and yet perplexing realism. The Dark Knight is too erratic; it doesn't know what it wants to do. It seems more chaotic in its thin themes of morality than the Joker. It's just a short mortality scene, a shaky action set, etc.

I completely agree.

If Christopher Nolan has demonstrated at least one thing, it's that you don't want to get too realistic with the Batman character. It stifles his potential. As it is, there were so many unrealistic things in TDK that I started to realize the only "realistic" thing about the movie is the visual appearance.

Look at this new Arkham Asylum game, it is glorious because its a compilation of everything up to this point in Batman lore. It isn't striving to be extremely realistic or extremely unrealistic, it's doing a precious balancing act to pay tribute to both worlds.

As it is, Nolan's going to have a rough time picking a well-known villain for part 3 that hasn't been done already. He doesn't like Penguin. That basically only leaves Riddler and Catwoman (unless an unknown can be thrown in on the side but even then...)

I've had enough of a Joker who has to explain his philosophy every time you see him and Batman's neanderthal voice and the whole cheesy narrating about "heroes" and how "he's the The Dark Knight."

Once Wayne Manor is rebuilt and Batman is securely settled in his Batcave beneath it, then I can measure how well Nolan knows the hero.

That will be the ULTIMATE test.

Drazar
12th May 2009, 12:41
Interestingly, the Two-Face coin landed on the "live" side when Harvey falls and drops it.

But he'd have to be an exceptional actor to convince Batman that he wasn't faking it, and the script does say that he breaks his neck and dies. Perhaps they'll change their minds, who knows...

Yep, Christopher Nolan considers Two-Face dead but a few months later Aaron grinning joked that Two-Face might be in a coma somewhere, really they can bring two-face back if they wish to. I mean "empire strikes back" didn't have the "no, im your father" line and guess what. =p It made to the movie.


The real question is, why would Harvey flip the coin for himself BEFORE the boy? I thought this was to teach Gordon a lesson? What good is the lesson if Dent had to kill himself before punishing Gordon?

Everyone gets their chance, that is Two-Face's moral.


I completely agree.

If Christopher Nolan has demonstrated at least one thing, it's that you don't want to get too realistic with the Batman character. It stifles his potential. As it is, there were so many unrealistic things in TDK that I started to realize the only "realistic" thing about the movie is the visual appearance.

Thats why its called Hyperrealism.


As it is, Nolan's going to have a rough time picking a well-known villain for part 3 that hasn't been done already. He doesn't like Penguin. That basically only leaves Riddler and Catwoman (unless an unknown can be thrown in on the side but even then...)

Penquin can make a cameo as a mobster gun-trader who owns a club. Catwoman or Talia Al'ghul is needed for 3rd movie or maybe Vicky Vale because the movie needs some Women into it too to avoid a sausage party. Riddler/Black Mask/Talia really work for the villain, even Bane would work tbh.






Once Wayne Manor is rebuilt and Batman is securely settled in his Batcave beneath it, then I can measure how well Nolan knows the hero.

That will be the ULTIMATE test.

So your saying Batman Begins and The Dark Knight weren't good enough yet?:rolleyes:;)

vicsage
12th May 2009, 13:52
Thats why its called Hyperrealism.

Yeah, not my favorite depiction of Batman (well, at least not Nolan's Hyperrealism).


Penquin can make a cameo as a mobster gun-trader who owns a club. Catwoman or Talia Al'ghul is needed for 3rd movie or maybe Vicky Vale because the movie needs some Women into it too to avoid a sausage party. Riddler/Black Mask/Talia really work for the villain, even Bane would work tbh.

Penguin is out, Nolan pretty much said so.

Catwoman would work (but she's been done already). I thought of Talia long ago but then imagine the stupidity of her appearance ("you've killed my father!" "I hate you!"). Vicky Vale as a love interest? I'd rather have no love interest except for the female enemy.

Riddler is really the only one left (and even he's been done already). They're going to have to make him much different than Joker.

Black Mask...come now, do we really need ANOTHER mob boss. We already have too many!

Bane? Are you serious? In Nolan's hyper-realistic world? They'll probably lose the tubing and have him take Venom pills instead, lol. I mean it might work but I see Bane's character would have to be castrated a bit to fit the movie.



So your saying Batman Begins and The Dark Knight weren't good enough yet?:rolleyes:;)

Neither film represents Batman at the peak of his career. He's still "beginning" in The Dark Knight. While I like both films, they don't really measure up to how I view Batman...so no, they weren't quite good enough yet :D

Arkham Asylum may be the most faithful piece of electronic media to the Batman comics (even more so than Nolan's Batman films).

The Jedi Guardian
12th May 2009, 13:57
The real question is, why would Harvey flip the coin for himself BEFORE the boy? I thought this was to teach Gordon a lesson? What good is the lesson if Dent had to kill himself before punishing Gordon?

You guys are bringing down my opinion of the movie.
Then why would he have flipped it for Batman. He feels all three of them were wrong, and when Two Face says, " Then why is it that I lost everything" It is too bad Batman couldn't have hinted about his identity or told him that he WAS in a relationship with Rachel and that she would have waited for him.

Wherever someone mentioned this saying that Batman was letting his emotions get to him. He has emotions all right. His parents died, he is fighting a cause that he is getting blamed for all of the deaths, his childhood friend dies, Joker knew Batman loved Rachel, in the interrogation scene he referred to her as his little bunny, Batman chose Rachel, but Joker tricked them and he probably knew that if Dent died now he would be a hero, he knew already about his vigilantism and what is fair and extreme measures from the alley. So if he chose Rachel he would have saved the city and he could take joker down without him having an ace. I think Joker knew about this too and maybe Harvey's captive escaped and told joker.

Drazar
12th May 2009, 15:12
You guys are bringing down my opinion of the movie.
Then why would he have flipped it for Batman. He feels all three of them were wrong, and when Two Face says, " Then why is it that I lost everything" It is too bad Batman couldn't have hinted about his identity or told him that he WAS in a relationship with Rachel and that she would have waited for him.

Wherever someone mentioned this saying that Batman was letting his emotions get to him. He has emotions all right. His parents died, he is fighting a cause that he is getting blamed for all of the deaths, his childhood friend dies, Joker knew Batman loved Rachel, in the interrogation scene he referred to her as his little bunny, Batman chose Rachel, but Joker tricked them and he probably knew that if Dent died now he would be a hero, he knew already about his vigilantism and what is fair and extreme measures from the alley. So if he chose Rachel he would have saved the city and he could take joker down without him having an ace. I think Joker knew about this too and maybe Harvey's captive escaped and told joker.

Indeed. :) Good post.

Zombie-Gamer
12th May 2009, 15:35
I liked the Dark Knight it’s an awesome movie but I did have a few little problems
Joker make up: The Joker shouldn’t wear make up
Two Face: One of Batman’s deadliest foes and he’s in it for like 10 mins before he dies WTF!
Batman’s voice: nuff said

Pwz41
12th May 2009, 15:41
Gotham can be portrayed in 2 ways:
1) Dirty city that is corrupted
2) Clean looking city which is dirty in the inside.

Now Nolan DID NOT repeat the mistakes Sam Raimi did with Venom. Harvey Dent is the backbone of the film, providing alot of passion and showing his darker side. Venom in SM3 was out of character, whiny whimp and whatnot. Nolan was loyal with Two-Face and made him an anti-hero guy, which he partially is.



Joker plans everything perfectly, those police cars were just arriviing when Joker left the building with the school buss, because thats what Joker is. A master schemer. The bus didn't take damage indeed, but it is a minor issue for me really.



What would these high-security areas be that you speak of? Also why would they need to wash off the face paint when they couldn't get anything from the fingerprints? Even Batman couldn't get anything from Joker's face with the batcomputer.



They didn't look creepy, and would you instantly go and attack someone who has a glascow smile? We could presume almost the whole row was of Joker's goons and so on, and he was having a low face so yeah, you can't simply jump to conclusions due to looks. :p And yeah everyone was excepting snipers from the roofs which is YET another way to show how shceming the Joker truly is. ;)


Well this is a comic world and we have Lucious Fox, even Nolan has to take some comic fantasy into here. =p



No way they should have cutten that man! It shows how Batman has no jurisdictions, it shows how determined he is to get the mobster and so forth. The chinese man was a key feature to lock up the mafia, it was an awesome short action sequence and should have never been removed. Also it wans't a hot air balloon, just check Skyhook on wikipedia. Its something real that was used during vietnam wars.



Since when did a bunch of small timers know anything about the mafia bosses? You think theres some newspage which tells everything about everysingle mafia guy?



I found Katie Holmes acting horrible, Maggie Gyllenhaal is a good actor but had a horrible hair style for this movie for some reason. Now the 2 police offers, i forgot their names so lets say "female cop" and "bald old cop" to avoid confusion. We learn from the very beginning that the female cop's mother was ill, and Maroni uses this as an advantage as she needs help with the hospital bills. The whole "Gordon's unit is corrupted" is just to show how LOW Gotham has sink and why gotham NEEDS Batman. Also we did see the bald old man driving Dent away, this happens right after they capture the Joker.


Thats personal preverse buddy, i loved how sad he was there sitting in his room when Rachel died. I just loved the emotion hans zimmer's music did.


Eh what? I don't see what your trying to complain here but right after Joker gets captured Harvey tells the media "we captured gordon, and i excepted Batman to save my ass *laughs*".


It was fairly realisitc design from a fire burn victim, also 50% of his clothes were dirty, that fits the Two-Face style. ;)



Batman ALWAYS apepars in scenes with no explanation, thats what Batman is, he IS the shadow. This for you is prolly a problem in comics too but how does he do it? Well hes the god damn Batman. =p Also your forgetting this show's Batman's early ears and Batman is pretty violent with his interrogations, he doesn't even bluff when he says he will break people's arms. :X Batman can't be calm and smooth when Joker is his 1st to come crazy lunatic he faces off that is something so new. I personally liked Bale's batvoice but he needs to develop a more of a dirty harry voice tbh.


If you feel so, i liked it.


Nolan always has a twist on his movie, i presume the twist on this movie was just way too obvious for us Batfans. ;)


Are you forgetting he was tired, shot in the stomache and was almost falling out himself? It was a miracle he could run away after that.


If you feel that way, i saw some passion between them tbh, maybe its because i was following the viral market and the actors did some 2-3 min video clips. =p


Yeah i hear this alot but like i said, theres 2 ways to portray Gotham:
1) Dirty dirty
2) Clean from the outside, dirty in the inside.


Batman wasn't there to kill off Two-Face on purpose, he rushed because he had to save an innocent live. Was it Batman who gave two-face the gun? No. Was it Batman who told to kill civillians to Two-Face? Nope. There are no happy endings to crime, and it showed the fall for Harvey Dent. Batman is againts killing people on purpose, and he didn't kill Two-Face on purpose.

PS. Very good post btw, i enjoyed reading it.:cool:

Yawn... TC is correct in almost every way.

And I love how Joker says, "Do I look like a guy with a plan?” he is by far the biggest schemer in the Batman world.

It's a good movie, but FULL of holes and inconsistencies that one could fill pages with.

Drazar
12th May 2009, 15:42
Joker make up: The Joker shouldn’t wear make up


He was inaway permawhite by realistic terms, but yeah he did need to apply makeup, but check what Joker looks like withouth makeup:
Ta-da! (http://i42.tinypic.com/ayu5ie.png)'

EDIT: TDK Having full of plotholes? It barely has noone outside Joker's hair turning green in the 1st scene.

Pwz41
12th May 2009, 15:56
Yeah that bothered me a lot. Like the club scene where Batman just plows through a bunch of Maroni's thugs and just drops Maroni off a balcony like nothing. Way too aggressive. I'm surprised Batman didn't kill anyone with all his shenanigans.

He has missiles or whatever on his Bat-pod and plowed through several cars in front of kids. What if there had been people in those parked cars? Remember Batman kicking the SWAT officer off the building that eventually pulled several officers with him? Even though they were tied at the foot to the rope, it was an extreme risk Batman made. What if the rope snapped? That's not Batman to me. Besides why did Batman attack the officers in the first place? Why not just disarm them instead of punching them and throwing them off buildings? The sticky grenade gun thing? Batman doesn't need this stuff. Nolan made this too much of an action movie than a Batman movie which irritates me.

Agreed, especially regarding the missles. And WTF, he never misses with that sticky grenade launcher. That thing would not be accurate enough for him to hit those studs like that, even if he was that good a shot.

Pwz41
12th May 2009, 16:16
Drazar

Batman could easily have disarmed Harvey. He had the element of surprise!!!!!!!!!!!! Harvey tossed the coin, he was looking up. Batman could have:

a: Grappling the gun from his hand.
b: Thrown a smoke bomb at his feet.
c. HIT HIM WITH A BATARANG, EASILY!!!!!
d. SHOT HIM WITH A STICKY BOMB!!!
e. KNOCKED HIM THE F*** OUT!!!
f. CHOCKED HIM OUT LIKE EARLIER IN THE FILM!!!!


HE'S F***ING BATMAN!!!!! If I can think of 5 ways to disarm Harvey he can think of 50, all while shot, yes, but still well enough to run, tackle, hold his own weight and the boys momentarily, and survive a fall.

The wholes in this movie are HUGE; please stop trying to sell it as water tight.

CaptainMcMulla
12th May 2009, 16:18
Drazar

Batman could easily disarmed Harvey'. He had the element of surprise!!!!!!!!!!!! Harvey tossed the coin, he was looking up. Batman could have:

a: Grappling the gun from his hand.
b: Thrown a smoke bomb at his feet.
c. HIT HIM WITH A BATARANG, EASILY!!!!!
d. SHOT HIM WITH A STICKY BOMB!!!
e. KNOCKED HIM THE F*** OUT!!!
f. CHOCKED HIM OUT LIKE EARLIER IN THE FILM!!!!


HE'S F***ING BATMAN!!!!! If I can think of 5 ways to disarm Harvey he can think of 50, all while shot, yes, but still well enough to run, tackle, hold his own weight and the boys momentarily, and survive a fall.

The wholes in this movie are HUGE; please stop trying to sell it as water tight.

He couldnt do any of those things because Harvey was holding Gordons son & Batman didnt want to harm him

Drazar
12th May 2009, 16:23
a: Grappling the gun from his hand.

How? If he had rushed there and went for the arm, Two-Face could have pushed the kid from the ledge or falling himself out there too. He was tired and him walking/running there straight to his hand would have been pretty impossible withouth risking gordon's son's live.



b: Thrown a smoke bomb at his feet.

He doens't have these in Nolan universe yet afaik, wasn't the only time we saw smoke alike bombs in League of Shadow base?



c. HIT HIM WITH A BATARANG, EASILY!!!!!

Again the hit on the arm could have made Two-Face push the kid away or get himself tripped along with the kid.


d. SHOT HIM WITH A STICKY BOMB!!!

Makes Batman a murderor.


e. KNOCKED HIM THE F*** OUT!!!

Makes Batman a murderor.


f. CHOCKED HIM OUT LIKE EARLIER IN THE FILM!!!!

Makes Batman a murderor.



HE'S F***ING BATMAN!!!!! If I can think of 5 ways to disarm Harvey he can think of 50, all while shot, yes, but still well enough to run, tackle, hold his own weight and the boys momentarily, and survive a fall.

Well your ideas were pretty much breaking Batman's code which is to not kill anyone intentionally.

The New Blueguy
12th May 2009, 16:23
In this topic, we learn why film students hate themselves.

Pwz41
12th May 2009, 16:25
He couldnt do any of those things because Harvey was holding Gordons son & Batman didnt want to harm him

Oh, I see, so instead he tackles them both off a roof!?!?!?

Of a builind that apeared leveled earlier in the movie, now it's 5 stories high again....:scratch:

Drazar
12th May 2009, 16:27
Oh, I see, so instead he tackles them both off a roof!?!?!?

Yep and quarenteed himself to get a hold on Gordon's kid.



Of a builind that apeared leveled earlier in the movie, now it's 5 stories high again....:scratch:

Not everything of it went down apparently, we only saw the front explode. ;)

Pwz41
12th May 2009, 16:39
Darzar, the stick bomb doesn't have to go off, it's just a blunt force item, he could have set the timer for five minutes.

Knocking someone out makes him a murderer?!?!?! Did you watch the rest of the movie!!!!?!?!?!?

HE choked HARVEY earlier in the movie!!!!!! I'm not saying it would have been easy for him to get position, but you're saying this makes him a murderer!?!?!??!

Also, you're saying that he can get close enough to tackle them both off the building, but to do nothing else!?!?!?

He couldn't reach the gun, punch Harvey, grab Gordon JR.? Harvey isn't a trained anything!!!! Batman is a NINJA!? You guys are reaching!

And to say that Batman is guaranteed a grasp at Gordon JR. by tackling him off a roof is safer than all the other options I presented is silly. I could also say how would he know that board was there to grab, but he didn't need that in the first place, HE HAS HIS CAPE!!!!! Or was Rachel's fall somehow more manageable, just give it up.

CaptainMcMulla
12th May 2009, 16:40
Oh, I see, so instead he tackles them both off a roof!?!?!?

Of a builind that apeared leveled earlier in the movie, now it's 5 stories high again....:scratch:

I cant be bothered writing out a essay for this so ill just say one thing for the whole thread. Stop slating the movie, it was one of the greatest action movies ever and only the fourth film to pass the $1billion mark. Now please be less critical. Maybe you could fill in the "potholes" of the movie by editing it yourself and having your own version of TDK.

Drazar
12th May 2009, 16:47
Darzar, the stick bomb doesn't have to go off, it's just a blunt force item, he could have set the timer for five minutes.

It would have taken too long to do it, and shooting him could have still gotten him knockbacked and taken the boy with him.


Knocking someone out makes him a murderer?!?!?! Did you watch the rest of the movie!!!!?!?!?!?

Yep i did. If the intention was murder as you hinted. You have to remember harvey was HOLDING James's son so pushing him would have pushed the son too.


HE choked HARVEY earlier in the movie!!!!!! I'm not saying it would have been easy for him to get position, but you're saying this makes him a murderer!?!?!??!

Are you talking about the quick move he passed him out? Again this would have required Batman to be Behind him and its not choking. CHoking is to hold the throat and murder.


Also, you're saying that he can get close enough to tackle them both off the building, but to do nothing else!?!?!?


Not to mention holding himself and a 10 year old up.:rolleyes:


He couldn't reach the gun, punch Harvey, grab Gordon JR.? Harvey isn't a trained anything!!!! Batman is a NINJA!? You guys are reaching!


Did you forget the part where it was established Batman was 1) shot on the chest 2) exhausted 3) had not much time, he acted quickly and chose his decisions there.


And to say that Batman is guaranteed a grasp at Gordon JR. by tackling him off a roof is safer than all the other options I presented is silly. I could also say how would he know that board was there to grab, but he didn't need that in the first place, HE HAS HIS CAPE!!!!! Or was Rachel's fall somehow more manageable, just give it up.

Rachel's fall was far longer to get the cape up, and they didn't hit solid earth when they landed. So yeah bad comparison really.

You all think Batman as some ultimate ninja with super powers, but you forget his a mere man whos tormented and trying his best, but he has his limits that are physical.

Pwz41
12th May 2009, 16:50
I cant be bothered writing out a essay for this so ill just say one thing for the whole thread. Stop slating the movie, it was one of the greatest action movies ever and only the fourth film to pass the $1billion mark. Now please be less critical. Maybe you could fill in the "potholes" of the movie by editing it yourself and having your own version of TDK.

I’m not a filmmaker; frankly, it’s not my job to fix elements of a movie that don’t add up.

It is a great action movie; it's a great movie period, but it’s not water tight! And why shouldn’t I be critical of such a renowned movie, my money contributed to that billion dollar mark that your referencing…

Pwz41
12th May 2009, 16:52
It would have taken too long to do it, and shooting him could have still gotten him knockbacked and taken the boy with him.



Yep i did. If the intention was murder as you hinted. You have to remember harvey was HOLDING James's son so pushing him would have pushed the son too.



Are you talking about the quick move he passed him out? Again this would have required Batman to be Behind him and its not choking. CHoking is to hold the throat and murder.



Not to mention holding himself and a 10 year old up.:rolleyes:



Did you forget the part where it was established Batman was 1) shot on the chest 2) exhausted 3) had not much time, he acted quickly and chose his decisions there.



Rachel's fall was far longer to get the cape up, and they didn't hit solid earth when they landed. So yeah bad comparison really.

You all think Batman as some ultimate ninja with super powers, but you forget his a mere man whos tormented and trying his best, but he has his limits that are physical.

None of what you've said warrants rebuttal, FAIL!!!!

Silent Knight
12th May 2009, 16:52
EVERY movie has flaws..

Pwz41
12th May 2009, 16:57
EVERY movie has flaws..

I agree, some more than others.

Drazar
12th May 2009, 16:57
None of what you've said warrants rebuttal, FAIL!!!!

So mature aren't we?:rolleyes: Honestly people need to realize Batman is a human and he makes choices, ofcourse he makes mistakes too but he makes the best of it, because hes Batman. He learns and does his best, its all about risk taking.

Pwz41
12th May 2009, 17:07
So mature aren't we?:rolleyes: Honestly people need to realize Batman is a human and he makes choices, ofcourse he makes mistakes too but he makes the best of it, because hes Batman. He learns and does his best, its all about risk taking.

Honestly you need to stop telling people what they need to realize, it's not up to you what my vision of Batman should be.

Mine is that of a highly trained Ninja of genius intelligence and quick decision making ability; one that would NEVER tackle a boy of a roof given his abilities and technological resources, even in the presented circumstances of that scene.

This is just one example of Nolan’s vision of Batman, and since he sold it to the public, it is now subject to public scrutiny, it’s clear that you agree completely with his vision of Batman, good for you.

Drazar
12th May 2009, 17:11
Honestly you need to stop telling people what they need to realize, it's not up to you what my vision of Batman should be.

It shouldn't. But i am giving you a fair reminder that Batman is a human who was tired, exhausted, gun shot and had moments to save the kid. He made a decision which not might been the best later on, but it seemed the best for the right moment. He saved an civillian, thus he was doing his job.


Mine is that of a highly trained Ninja of genius intelligence and quick decision making ability; one that would NEVER tackle a boy of a roof given his abilities and technological resources, even in the presented circumstances of that scene.


Since when did Ninja training give quick decision making? :P And again you seem to ignore his exhaustion and weak body on the moment.


This is just one example of Nolan’s vision of Batman, and since he sold it to the public, it is now subject to public scrutiny, it’s clear that you agree completely with his vision of Batman, good for you.

Not completely, but it is the most loyal live action adaption of Batman. Loads of comic references and comic plots, me likey.:cool:

Pwz41
12th May 2009, 18:00
Your arguments are for the sake of argument only; you have no leg to stand on and are now making statements like,

"Since when does Ninja training give you quick decision making skills?"

And you’re implying that my saying Batman should have incapacitated him in some way superior to that of a football player makes him a murderer.

I NEVER implied in the least that Batman murder Harvey.

You however, did, you said that my saying Batman could knock him out meant murder. Same with a choke hold, apparently UFC fighters are all murderers now, Hmm?

You also said Rachel's fall was longer so he could "manage" it with his cape. Well it's too bad his cape is ineffective from 3 stories or he'd have gotten messed up when he jumped after Maroni, oh wait....

Not to mention that Harvey thought Batman was completely out of the picture, thus giving a ninja the element of surprise, and the best he can do is a tackle :nut:

And now for Batman's physical ailments that would so certainly limit him.

HARVEY had his face blown off a day before, he was without pain medication, emotionally distraught, and would most certainly DIE of infection! But Batman was so clearly at a disadvantage because he was gut shot, tired, and human, LIKE HARVEY.

HE WAS ALSO STABBED BEFORE HE SAVED RACHEL, STOP ARGUING, this scene was to kill Harvey!!!!!

Drazar
12th May 2009, 18:19
Your arguments are for the sake of argument only; you have no leg to stand on and are now making statements like,

"Since when does Ninja training give you quick decision making skills?"

My arguments come from my believe, and really when does Ninja training give you quick decision making? You ignore my question apparently and just say im here to argue, while im here to give my perspective on the Dark Knight movie.


And you’re implying that my saying Batman should have incapacitated him in some way superior to that of a football player makes him a murderer.

I NEVER implied in the least that Batman murder Harvey.

Whats with the "push harvey dent, throw batarangs at him" and whatnot? He was holding James Gordon Jr and could have easily pushed/jumped the kid if Batman had attack with some range weapon.


You however, did, you said that my saying Batman could knock him out meant murder. Same with a choke hold, apparently UFC fighters are all murderers now, Hmm?


Its lovely how you compare a fightning sport to a man who fights crime. :P


You also said Rachel's fall was longer so he could "manage" it with his cape. Well it's too bad his cape is ineffective from 3 stories or he'd have gotten messed up when he jumped after Maroni, oh wait....

You do realize Batman had his cloak prepared there with the Maroni? While we saw Batman barely managing to hold himself and James Gordon jr, and thats why he fell after words. he was EXHAUSTED, he was tired and had a gunshot on the chest. You honestly believe Batman has some sort of wolverine/spiderman-alike regeneration?:confused::eek:


Not to mention that Harvey thought Batman was completely out of the picture, thus giving a ninja the element of surprise, and the best he can do is a tackle :nut:


How can an exhausted person with a wounded chest work like a master ninja? He had to make a quick decisiion due to the coin toss and he found a solution. You may not like it but thats what Batman chose, you could just argue that Batman should have killed the Joker to stop his crime spree from the beginning of the movie. :P


HARVEY had his face blown off a day before, he was without pain medication, emotionally distraught, and would most certainly DIE of infection! But Batman was so clearly at a disadvantage because he was gut shot, tired, and human, LIKE HARVEY.

There have been worse cases of fireburns, and maybe Two-Face will eventually die out from the injections, but for now he is already dead. =p And yeah your really not working with comparing a burned face with lets see:
- Days of hard work and no sleep => exhausted
- shot at the chest
- fightning over thugs and whatnot, he was seriously tired.
- Had mere moments before the coin would have landed, and thus possibly killing james gordon juniour.

HE WAS ALSO STABBED BEFORE HE SAVED RACHEL, STOP ARGUING, this scene was to kill Harvey!!!!![/QUOTE]

Can you stop the capslock please? Its not needed. Also you honestly compare a gunshot to a stab? You should be the one stopping to argue when you can't hold off the caps dude. ;/ Im just sharing my point of view here.

PS. Yes the scene was meant to kill off Two-Face as an anti-hero but things can change, i consider him dead but really, you can't compare the jump with rachel to harvey's. Because as i said, Batman was exhausted in the harvey scene. ;o

DarkKnightDanny
12th May 2009, 18:30
you two should just quit whilst youre ahead.
youre trying to force your opinions onto each other and it clearly isnt working.
chill:)

Drazar
12th May 2009, 18:32
you two should just quit whilst youre ahead.
youre trying to force your opinions onto each other and it clearly isnt working.
chill:)

Meh i'm not intending to force them, i just wanna point out on the human limit's of Batman and he made a quick decision to save a child's life. =P

Pwz41
12th May 2009, 19:09
Meh i'm not intending to force them, i just wanna point out on the human limit's of Batman and he made a quick decision to save a child's life. =P

"Batman, has no limits!" Bruce Wayne... THE DARK KNIGHT

Pwz41
12th May 2009, 19:11
And before you reply with some desperate attempt to deubunk me, yet again.....


That's it for me, next topic...

Drazar
12th May 2009, 19:11
"Batman, has no limits!" Bruce Wayne... THE DARK KNIGHT

"I'm not a schemer" - Joker.:rolleyes: See two can play this game, besides Batman did find his limits almost but managed to endure, but still you can argue all you want about Batman's decision on how the director chose it but fact is: He saved a kid's life and thus did a good job on Batman's own perspective.

EDIT: I love it how you call me desperate while i was just pointing out facts. :P

The Jedi Guardian
13th May 2009, 00:23
His limits are literally what the comic writers and script writers give him. He doesn't have superpowers but that doesn't limit him to using his mind to find a way around it. Sleep isn't one, exhaustion (everyone has exhaustion and it tired but he took damage and no sleep with it too)

SO you are both correct. He does have limits but he pushes the bar as far as he can by not giving up and giving better than your best. He is brutal in combat, his line is too not kill, so he can break people's arms, legs, etc. He has an almost unlimited resource of books, studies. His limit it is up to everything he knows which is a lot.

So again limit bar, but it is very high

DarkCrusader67
13th May 2009, 00:40
He has an almost unlimited resource of books, studies. His limit it is up to everything he knows which is a lot.

So again limit bar, but it is very high

It's not necessarily his book knowledge or what he physically knows but rather how he is able to adapt to any situation and environment. There have been plenty of times when Batman is completely caught by surprise by something but he always quickly adapts to the situation and responds quickly and effectively.

Drazar
13th May 2009, 18:16
It's not necessarily his book knowledge or what he physically knows but rather how he is able to adapt to any situation and environment. There have been plenty of times when Batman is completely caught by surprise by something but he always quickly adapts to the situation and responds quickly and effectively.

And there are those times when he just ends up being exhausted. :p
@Jedi_Guardian: Completely agreeing with you there.

BatNipples
13th May 2009, 19:55
, 1 thing is confirmed tho. ;)
NO Batnipples!

Well then i wont be going to see it.




Also dont you think its funny batman has no problem letting his old best friend and master die horribly in a train crash but he refusses to let physcopath and murderous luatic Joker fall to his death nicley? And also he kills harvey dent at the end (i know he didnt mean to kill him but he does). It would have worked out nicley for batman if the joker died. He could have blamed everyone harvey killed on the joker plus in real life they wouldnt have the problem of re-castng :hmm:

Drazar
13th May 2009, 20:02
Well the film got finished 2-3 months before Heath Ledger died so yeah. :/ Now the thing is Two-Face didn't wanna escape from "this". He became a psychopath and he told Gordon when he realized the cops were there (but didnt know why) that he doesn't wanna escape from this, thats why Batman took the blame eventually, he will carry the guilt.

Now regarding Ras'alghul it is interesting discussion on how Batman didn't choose to save him, while technically he didn't put ras in the situation as he did with pushing the Joker off. Now as a big comic nerd i always think "Nah, Ras' survived and went to a lazarus pit" but i have no evidence to that, we can't know for sure did he die or not, but its pretty clear he did. But yeah i really love talking about the psychology of Batman.

BatNipples
13th May 2009, 20:28
But yeah i really love talking about the psychology of Batman.

Ye he is a bloody psychopath. I wouldnt be surprised if it was him who murded his parents.

Abeja
13th May 2009, 20:47
The psychology of the movie was perfect, and the relationships between the characters was fine. I think its just the actions used to make the psychology work is what turned alot of people off from this movie.

The Jedi Guardian
13th May 2009, 23:21
The psychology of the movie was perfect, and the relationships between the characters was fine. I think its just the actions used to make the psychology work is what turned alot of people off from this movie.

I think you have a good point there, people found the ending sort of weird but I think it was perfect, what would have appeased everyone one was if it wasn't left there on a cliff hanger

well feel like it was one

Drazar
13th May 2009, 23:24
I loved both endings in the Nolan serie because i find them really poetic, especially Batman begins.

Gordon: I never said thank you
Batman: and you'll never have to.

And there he goes flying into Gotham city to continue his war againts crime, and then in TDK we get the speech on how important Batman is, and hes just not a mere hero but a silent protector, a watchful guard, a Dark Knight. :)

Abeja
13th May 2009, 23:36
I think you have a good point there, people found the ending sort of weird but I think it was perfect, what would have appeased everyone one was if it wasn't left there on a cliff hanger

well feel like it was one

Honestly, I think alot of people expected Joker to die, mostly cause of Ledger and what Burton did.



I loved both endings in the Nolan serie because i find them really poetic, especially Batman begins.

Gordon: I never said thank you
Batman: and you'll never have to.

And there he goes flying into Gotham city to continue his war againts crime, and then in TDK we get the speech on how important Batman is, and hes just not a mere hero but a silent protector, a watchful guard, a Dark Knight. :)

I said that quote in the Quotes thread. I loved the ending of BB cause it was taken straight out of Year One. TDK ending is poetic cause it instead of letting his city see someone like Dent become corrupt and hurt the publics view on the higher rulers. He took the blame. Like they said multiple times in the movie, he isnt a hero, he is something more. In this case, he is someone they can blame for the problems. Like a preist in the confessional, he lets us vent and blame him so that the rest of the world seems right. If people found out about Harvey Dent, the structure of things collapse and the Joker ultimately wins with pure chaos.

Abeja
14th May 2009, 00:05
Damn double post.

The Jedi Guardian
14th May 2009, 03:45
When I saw Joker fall over the edge I felt Rip-off, and then OH. I just loved how Joker was laughing because he feels like he actually succeeded in getting Batman to kill him because he tossed him over the edge. I guess that is the difference between Tim Burton's Batman and Nolan's Batman is Tim Burton's actually kills a few times and nolan's batman gives people the choice to die. I bet Ra's stayed because he was defeated, he could have escaped.

We aren't even sure if there is anything left of the League of Shadows, so thinking about this I don't think Talia is possible, they never even mentioned a daughter in Begins. So he must have a bigger base than the one that was destroyed.

stefanator600
14th May 2009, 04:10
Here is a statement that sums everything up.......Batman The Animated series is best and always will be! :rasp: It is the truth, if you haven't seen it then go watch it now, you will then never watch a mediocre Batman film again because you'll be hooked on TAS!:D

Pwz41
14th May 2009, 14:38
Honestly, I think alot of people expected Joker to die, mostly cause of Ledger and what Burton did.




I said that quote in the Quotes thread. I loved the ending of BB cause it was taken straight out of Year One. TDK ending is poetic cause it instead of letting his city see someone like Dent become corrupt and hurt the publics view on the higher rulers. He took the blame. Like they said multiple times in the movie, he isnt a hero, he is something more. In this case, he is someone they can blame for the problems. Like a preist in the confessional, he lets us vent and blame him so that the rest of the world seems right. If people found out about Harvey Dent, the structure of things collapse and the Joker ultimately wins with pure chaos.

Why not just pin those murders on The Joker.... Let me guess, Batman would have a moral problem w/ that....Drazar.... Or the logistics wouldn't work, blah, blah, blah.... It's all about the drama.

Pwz41
14th May 2009, 15:06
Okay, so Nolan is trying to portray Batman in a “real” world setting. It’s this fact that makes these films fall apart when you start to analyze them. The drama necessary to make the story flow and be compelling to an audience makes realism almost impossible. The reason we don’t have a Batman in our world is because NO ONE is that able. I guess my problems with the films are in their foundation, Batman in a real world. It would be cool to see, but I think even the best trained soldier, ninja, whatever, vigilante would be caught or killed in a short period of time in our reality.

Abeja
14th May 2009, 17:14
Why not just pin those murders on The Joker.... Let me guess, Batman would have a moral problem w/ that....Drazar.... Or the logistics wouldn't work, blah, blah, blah.... It's all about the drama.

Well,the Joker is still alive. Blaming him for the murder of Harvey Dent probably wouldnt sit well (even though he tried to kill him, the Joker wanted him to be corrupt and a villain like him). Batman had to take the blame so noone would could question him. He is a silent guardian, he protects the city and its secrets.


Okay, so Nolan is trying to portray Batman in a “real” world setting. It’s this fact that makes these films fall apart when you start to analyze them. The drama necessary to make the story flow and be compelling to an audience makes realism almost impossible. The reason we don’t have a Batman in our world is because NO ONE is that able. I guess my problems with the films are in their foundation, Batman in a real world. It would be cool to see, but I think even the best trained soldier, ninja, whatever, vigilante would be caught or killed in a short period of time in our reality.

I think thats a fair point. People want it to be too real, and yet a movie at the same time. I think thats why I liked Batman Begins so much was cause the story was fairly simple and had some time before he would become Batman. TDK you have a very long story with the characters already established, and when you need something to happen to continue this realism is where you get plot holes. The Joker had a counter for everything Batman did, just like it should be. However, you start to wonder how he does on it, and it goes back to he is "unpredictable".

Drazar
14th May 2009, 19:02
Why not just pin those murders on The Joker.... Let me guess, Batman would have a moral problem w/ that....Drazar.... Or the logistics wouldn't work, blah, blah, blah.... It's all about the drama.

Because Batman took the fall of Harvey Dent too, how can he blame Joker for Dent's murder when the body was in the police grounds & all clothed up? Dent was MIA and Gordon and his Police were there, there wasn't any logical way to blame Joker, so Batman took the fall, because he can take it, because he isn't a hero, he is the god damn Batman. ;)

PS. Remember Joker was captured and in our current world we can check on the corpse/body the time they died, so yeah.

Pwz41
14th May 2009, 19:44
Because Batman took the fall of Harvey Dent too, how can he blame Joker for Dent's murder when the body was in the police grounds & all clothed up? Dent was MIA and Gordon and his Police were there, there wasn't any logical way to blame Joker, so Batman took the fall, because he can take it, because he isn't a hero, he is the god damn Batman. ;)

PS. Remember Joker was captured and in our current world we can check on the corpse/body the time they died, so yeah.

I'm paraphrasing the post hospital explosion scene.

Jim Gordon "Where is Harvey Dent?"

Street Cop "We don't know!"

Jim Gordon "If anybody asks, WE GOT HIM OUT!"

My point is, Gordon would bend the rules to keep Batman's name clear, IMO.

You ever see Dave Chapelle stand up?

"Come on Johnson, let's sprinkle some crack on him and get out a here..."

I think Batman and Gordon both know that he is much less useful to the city as a "murdereing" vigilante, rather than a "disliked" vigilante.

Pin it on the Joker, he killed SO many cops I don't see that being an issue;)

Drazar
14th May 2009, 19:50
Your forgetting two important things:

1) Gordon had his unit nearby Two-Face's kidnap fiasco, they didn't know who was doing it but they knew there was a situation.

2) How can Gordon explain Harvey Dent's body when theres still abit bodyheath, hes dressed up and the gun he used has his fingerprints all over it?

Now when Batman launched himself on Two-Face to save Jim jr, he sadly couldn't get a hold on Two-Face too and thus he fell to his own death. How can Gordon explain this? The police knew there was a situation going on, what can Gordon say?

Gordon: false alarm guys nothing to worry about!
Cop #1: But Jim your family is here and all teary!... Wait is that HARVEY DENT!?!?
Gordon: oh yeah... what do you know...
Cop #2: Hes body tempature is still warm, but he is dead! Who did this!
Gordon: THE JOKER!!!!!
Cop #1: But sir the Joker got captured long ago across the city....
Cop #2: Yeah and hey, heres a gun lets take it for evidence.


See? This is why Batman took the fall, he didn't just take the fall of Harvey Dent's murders he took Harvey's death on to himself, to make sure his name wouldn't get ruined.

Pwz41
14th May 2009, 20:08
Your forgetting two important things:

1) Gordon had his unit nearby Two-Face's kidnap fiasco, they didn't know who was doing it but they knew there was a situation.

2) How can Gordon explain Harvey Dent's body when theres still abit bodyheath, hes dressed up and the gun he used has his fingerprints all over it?

Now when Batman launched himself on Two-Face to save Jim jr, he sadly couldn't get a hold on Two-Face too and thus he fell to his own death. How can Gordon explain this? The police knew there was a situation going on, what can Gordon say?

Gordon: false alarm guys nothing to worry about!
Cop #1: But Jim your family is here and all teary!... Wait is that HARVEY DENT!?!?
Gordon: oh yeah... what do you know...
Cop #2: Hes body tempature is still warm, but he is dead! Who did this!
Gordon: THE JOKER!!!!!
Cop #1: But sir the Joker got captured long ago across the city....
Cop #2: Yeah and hey, heres a gun lets take it for evidence.


See? This is why Batman took the fall, he didn't just take the fall of Harvey Dent's murders he took Harvey's death on to himself, to make sure his name wouldn't get ruined.



Drazar, you're pissing me off again!

I don't need you to explain the script to me! I know how it went and why it went that way.

I'm not asking for your insight!

I'm saying, I think it's all contrived for the purpose of DRAMA, you will never convince me that any of this is feasible.

I’m starting to question the intelligence of someone who takes this whole movie as batman gospel, and my own for arguing with you.

Now go jump in your Dark Knight pajamas, grab your Dark Knight flash light, open your Dark Knight novel and get reading, you’ve only got 10 minutes before bed time!!!

SammiiDoogles
14th May 2009, 20:14
not getting involved here, but i just wanna say, some people here, not naming names, are damn rude....
People are allowed their own views on things.

CaptainMcMulla
14th May 2009, 20:26
not getting involved here, but i just wanna say, some people here, not naming names, are damn rude....
People are allowed their own views on things.

:hmm::hmm: true

Pwz41
14th May 2009, 20:27
not getting involved here, but i just wanna say, some people here, not naming names, are damn rude....
People are allowed their own views on things.

My heart goes out to you, it really does... :flowers:

SammiiDoogles
14th May 2009, 20:34
My heart goes out to you, it really does... :flowers:

Good to hear, thanks for the flowers.

kadashi666
14th May 2009, 20:35
I think Batman and Gordon both know that he is much less useful to the city as a "murdereing" vigilante, rather than a "disliked" vigilante.

Pin it on the Joker, he killed SO many cops I don't see that being an issue;)

the joker is many things. insane, psychoatic, briliant, an anarchist, and an all around fun guy. but one thing he is not is a patsy. ten bucks says that if they tried to pin it on the joker (especially heath ledgers joker) it would come back to hurt them in ways they couldn't even imagine. :D

Pwz41
14th May 2009, 20:55
the joker is many things. insane, psychoatic, briliant, an anarchist, and an all around fun guy. but one thing he is not is a patsy. ten bucks says that if they tried to pin it on the joker (especially heath ledgers joker) it would come back to hurt them in ways they couldn't even imagine. :D

I understand what you mean.

But the Joker is going to do harm and bring chaos no matter what given the chance. What's to keep him quiet the way things are now. He knows what Harvey was up to! He doesn't want Batman to take the fall, he wants Dent and all of his accomplishments destroyed.

And the Joker isn't all powerful, he was caught, and the ferries didn't blow.

Drazar
14th May 2009, 21:01
Drazar, you're pissing me off again!

I don't need you to explain the script to me! I know how it went and why it went that way.

I'm not asking for your insight!

Then why do you post on this thread and not just keep it yourself? When you post on a public forum your assured to get a reply. :p


I'm saying, I think it's all contrived for the purpose of DRAMA, you will never convince me that any of this is feasible.

It was good story telling and it showed how amazing Batman is to take so many sacrifises onto himself for the sake of not getting Dent's light sway from the people. It does have drama elements but it wasn't cheesy, it was well explained.


I’m starting to question the intelligence of someone who takes this whole movie as batman gospel, and my own for arguing with you.

When did i say this? When did i say i take this movie as a batman gospel? I just didn't like your way of saying "Batman should have just thrown a batarang at harvey's face, and Batman is never physically tired just because hes batman" thats how i saw your posts, so i replied to them to give my own insight, now your the one throwing insults, shouting FAIL!!! And whatnot, if you can't remain reasonable maybe its YOU whos taking things way too seriously.


Now go jump in your Dark Knight pajamas, grab your Dark Knight flash light, open your Dark Knight novel and get reading, you’ve only got 10 minutes before bed time!!!

I'll rather read a good comic over a novelization. ;)

Kai Rei
14th May 2009, 21:08
You two are like two old ladie's with sand in their croche's. Alway's argueing. hahaha

Drazar
14th May 2009, 21:09
You two are like two old ladie's with sand in their croche's. Alway's argueing. hahaha

A good debate is always fun but then the fun goes away when people lack evidence and throw into insulting. ;/

Kai Rei
14th May 2009, 21:15
A good debate is always fun but then the fun goes away when people lack evidence and throw into insulting. ;/

It was a joke, and I think it's obvious. Stop looking for sympathy.

Drazar
14th May 2009, 21:16
I'm not looking for sympathy, and i saw the joke negative towards me! ;P

Pwz41
14th May 2009, 21:25
Then why do you post on this thread and not just keep it yourself? When you post on a public forum your assured to get a reply. :p

Because I find your defensive rationalizations of the movie week and wish to show them as such.

It was good story telling and it showed how amazing Batman is to take so many sacrifises onto himself for the sake of not getting Dent's light sway from the people. It does have drama elements but it wasn't cheesy, it was well explained.

Goron's speech at the end was cheesy, very cheesy!


When did i say this? When did i say i take this movie as a batman gospel? I just didn't like your way of saying "Batman should have just thrown a batarang at harvey's face, and Batman is never physically tired just because hes batman" thats how i saw your posts, so i replied to them to give my own insight, now your the one throwing insults, shouting FAIL!!! And whatnot, if you can't remain reasonable maybe its YOU whos taking things way too seriously.

You're right; you never said that, just like I never said he should through a batarang at Harvey's face. I said the script portrayed a decision that someone less than Batman would make.

I never denied Batman's state of peril either, but he could still handle a few Harvey Dents at once, I'm sure. So continue to find the script perfect, I'm positive you will, but please stop responding to my posts like you're explaining something I don't understand. You're missing the point.



I'll rather read a good comic over a novelization. ;)


:wave:

Drazar
14th May 2009, 21:29
How is my defense weak? I mean sure the last event could have been written differently but they chose to show Harvey dent fall and i explained why Batman didn't do this and that. Batman can be portrayed in various ways and sayinfg "this isn't what Batman doesn't do" is pretty far off, because the only thing Batman doesnt do is kill intentionally and especially with guns, he did this once just to kill the god of evil and look what happened. =p But hey here i am asking you:

If you were Batman, exhausted tired and had mere seconds to save a jim gordon jr from two-face, what would you do? :) Just answer this and we can get this thing going.

and i'm sorry but your the 1st one to find his last speech cheesy. :p Each for their own in the end.

PS. i don't need a flashlight to read comics. :p I'm a big boy now with my own room!

Pwz41
14th May 2009, 22:43
How is my defense weak? I mean sure the last event could have been written differently but they chose to show Harvey dent fall and i explained why Batman didn't do this and that. Batman can be portrayed in various ways and sayinfg "this isn't what Batman doesn't do" is pretty far off, because the only thing Batman doesnt do is kill intentionally and especially with guns, he did this once just to kill the god of evil and look what happened. =p But hey here i am asking you:

If you were Batman, exhausted tired and had mere seconds to save a jim gordon jr from two-face, what would you do? :) Just answer this and we can get this thing going.

If I were Batman LOL, I would perhaps have graplinged the gun hand of Harvey, much like the "batman copy cat" being attacked by the dog earlier on. Or, as I said before, shoot Harvey with the sticky bomb gun, I don't think this would kill him, the projectile would not be set to detonate of course. Or, he could have simply taken the gun hand and beat Harvey down, he got close enough to the Joker in a room full of his thugs and bystanders to strike him, he could have disarmed Harvey by hand, considering he had a great element of surprise. And please don't reference Batman's weakened condition, he WAS stabbed before he saved Rachel, and he was still capable of running after the gunshot, and the fall, also, we have no idea the severity on Batman's wound.

and i'm sorry but your the 1st one to find his last speech cheesy. :p Each for their own in the end.

I would be surprised if this is the case, but your right, to each their own.

PS. i don't need a flashlight to read comics. :p I'm a big boy now with my own room!

Your Dark Knight night light?

Pwz41
14th May 2009, 22:47
You two are like two old ladie's with sand in their croche's. Alway's argueing. hahaha

There is no arguing this:D

Ensanguined Walls
14th May 2009, 22:56
I did find the end speech slightly cheesy. Not too bad, though.

Drazar
14th May 2009, 22:58
If I were Batman LOL, I would perhaps have graplinged the gun hand of Harvey, much like the "batman copy cat" being attacked by the dog earlier on. Or, as I said before, shoot Harvey with the sticky bomb gun, I don't think this would kill him, the projectile would not be set to detonate of course. Or, he could have simply taken the gun hand and beat Harvey down, he got close enough to the Joker in a room full of his thugs and bystanders to strike him, he could have disarmed Harvey by hand, considering he had a great element of surprise. And please don't reference Batman's weakened condition, he WAS stabbed before he saved Rachel, and he was still capable of running after the gunshot, and the fall, also, we have no idea the severity on Batman's wound.

I just rechecked the scene before making this post to make sure i wouldn't do any misinforms, so yeah this is where your problems lie Pwz41. Two-Face had a grip on the boy with his left hand on the boy and the gun (right arm) was right on the Kid's face.

So lets see, sticky bomb would have caused him a push back which would have gotten him to fall down, thats a damn direct murder there dude. :P Also depending on the situaton his grip on the boy (or not, since when he tossed the coin there wasnt a good grip) could have gotten down there with him too.

Taking the gun from Harvey's hand could have been possible but you do realize Batman couldn't then LEAP to him? Because Harvey was on the very edge and going there slowly could have caused into more gunshots to either Batman or the Kid. While this is possable it still is risk taking, and i don't see Batman taking the risk of a young kid dying, dunno about you tho. ;/ Remember Batman is about saving civillians 1st and foremost, not taking down crooks.

Really i do beleive the leaping onto him was the best surprise he could give, it assured the gun wouldn't hit the boy, and he could snatch the boy there.

Pwz41
15th May 2009, 01:12
I just rechecked the scene before making this post to make sure i wouldn't do any misinforms, so yeah this is where your problems lie Pwz41. Two-Face had a grip on the boy with his left hand on the boy and the gun (right arm) was right on the Kid's face.

So lets see, sticky bomb would have caused him a push back which would have gotten him to fall down, thats a damn direct murder there dude. :P Also depending on the situaton his grip on the boy (or not, since when he tossed the coin there wasnt a good grip) could have gotten down there with him too.



Taking the gun from Harvey's hand could have been possible but you do realize Batman couldn't then LEAP to him? Because Harvey was on the very edge and going there slowly could have caused into more gunshots to either Batman or the Kid. While this is possable it still is risk taking, and i don't see Batman taking the risk of a young kid dying, dunno about you tho. ;/ Remember Batman is about saving civillians 1st and foremost, not taking down crooks.

Immediately after his battle with the Ken Watanbe, Bruce Wayne, granted, healthy, yet still winded, was able to hoist Ducard's 200lbs of body weight, plus another conservative 30lbs of amour to safety with ONE ARM. This is just one example of Batman's unprecedented physical and mental ability. I don't think the Two Face scene gives him enough credit, but it was necessary for the movie to proceed as it did.

Really i do beleive the leaping onto him was the best surprise he could give, it assured the gun wouldn't hit the boy, and he could snatch the boy there.

Just watched it again myself, the gun was pointed away from Jr's head, Harvey has his forearm of the gun hand resting on Jr.s shoulder and he's perpendicular to Batman's position, Harvey looks straight up when he tosses the coin. You asked me before what I would do if I where Batman, first, I wouldn't growl while lunging at Harvey, and yes, I still think the better move would be for Batman to disarm him right there by taking the gun arm for himself, and then knocking Two Face out.

This is my closing argument for this scene, you are surely entitled to yours. If you wish to argue some other plot hole until we're blue in the face I'm all for it. But I warn you, this was one of the more "grey" scenes of the film, others are more blatantly leaky.

Also, I do apologize for being a ****, I get a bit grumpy while at work. I was out of line, sorry.

:flowers:

Ensanguined Walls
15th May 2009, 02:19
Just watched it again myself, the gun was pointed away from Jr's head, Harvey has his forearm of the gun hand resting on Jr.s shoulder and he's perpendicular to Batman's position, Harvey looks straight up when he tosses the coin. You asked me before what I would do if I where Batman, first, I wouldn't growl while lunging at Harvey, and yes, I still think the better move would be for Batman to disarm him right there by taking the gun arm for himself, and then knocking Two Face out.

This is my closing argument for this scene, you are surely entitled to yours. If you wish to argue some other plot hole until we're blue in the face I'm all for it. But I warn you, this was one of the more "grey" scenes of the film, others are more blatantly leaky.

Also, I do apologize for being a ****, I get a bit grumpy while at work. I was out of line, sorry.

:flowers:

I agree. Bat-Man could have knocked Harvey out, as he was looking up and the gun was slightly pointed away. The Ducard mountain scene also makes me think that exhaustion wouldn't have mattered.

DarkCrusader67
15th May 2009, 03:19
Remember Batman is about saving civillians 1st and foremost, not taking down crooks.

I think this is another aspect in which Batman is more interesting than Superman! Superman doesn't have a choice to take down the bad guy or save the citizen. His mind is already made up before the actual event even happens! Batman on the other hand must choose to save citizens or take down the bad guy. How many times has the Joker let Batman decide whether to let innocents die or take down the Joker? It's the struggle in Batman's mind that makes these decisions interesting... looking at his options, taking into account the risks, and weighing the consequences are all things that get jumbled around in his head.

And yes, i know this post is off topic but i just had to!

Pwz41
15th May 2009, 03:25
I think this is another aspect in which Batman is more interesting than Superman! Superman doesn't have a choice to take down the bad guy or save the citizen. His mind is already made up before the actual event even happens! Batman on the other hand must choose to save citizens or take down the bad guy. How many times has the Joker let Batman decide whether to let innocents die or take down the Joker? It's the struggle in Batman's mind that makes these decisions interesting... looking at his options, taking into account the risks, and weighing the consequences are all things that get jumbled around in his head.

And yes, i know this post is off topic but i just had to!

What do you mean when you say Superman's mind is already made up? I agree with your statement about choice regarding Batman, but I don't understand why this doesn't apply to Superman as well, are you referring to Superman's superior physical abilities? :scratch:

DarkCrusader67
15th May 2009, 03:32
What do you mean when you say Superman's mind is already made up? I agree with your statement about choice regarding Batman, but I don't understand why this doesn't apply to Superman as well, are you referring to Superman's superior physical abilities? :scratch:

no, i'm referring to Superman's crystal clear cut white and black world. He sees good and evil. light and dark. He doesn't have to go through all of the mental struggle that Batman has to go through in making these decisions.

Look back into HUSH and there's an example of how his decisions are already made up before the situation even occurs.

Drazar
15th May 2009, 11:01
This is my closing argument for this scene, you are surely entitled to yours. If you wish to argue some other plot hole until we're blue in the face I'm all for it. But I warn you, this was one of the more "grey" scenes of the film, others are more blatantly leaky.

Also, I do apologize for being a ****, I get a bit grumpy while at work. I was out of line, sorry.

:flowers:

Now i see the problem, you view it as a plothole (because?) while the definition of a plothole is:
A plot hole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

Now I really don't see how Batman saving a child is a plothole, sure we can make all logistics on what he could have done during the seconds the coin was flipping, but he made a decision and with Harvey's death he made another decision: he took the blame for everythng. He sacrifised his own image for the sake of Harvey Dent's light.

PS. Its good your apologizing, i didn't feel hurt but its always disappointing in debates when it becomes a flame war, so yeah no harm done.:wave: