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Princess_Frosty
11th May 2009, 19:34
*Moderator Updates*


February 2014



Thief PC: It's not a port and gamers will love it, says producer
Eidos Montreal producer Stephane Roy also assures fans that PC version will have all the options you can imagine, but not Mantle at launch.
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/thief-pc-it-s-not-a-port-and-gamers-will-love-it-says-producer/1100-6417927/




http://www.pixeldynamo.com/news/gaming/2014/02/22/4190/thief-reboot-wont-support-mantle-launch/

Support for AMD TrueAudio and Mantle are apparently not in the game, afterall, although they're saying they'll be patched in a month later.






Pre-loading of Thief is now available for those who have pre-ordered the game through Steam. Jump into your games library right click on Thief and start your pre-load!

Edit: 19.7Gb Download




I've been looking every ware on the web trying to find out if thief will be available for down load on the Xbox one market place. Please help. Thanks. Been playing thief since Thief Gold.




Welcome aboard, Kenwashere.

I went and asked for you and the Xbox One will indeed have Day One digital download. Here's the digital platform schedule below:


PC: Day One
Xbox One: Day One
PS4: Day One
PS3: Day One
Xbox 360: March 7th


Hope that helps!

__



Hi
Does anyone know if Thief will support AMD Mantle technology?
Thanks


Yes. Thief will support Mantle.
http://www.nixxes.com/nixxes/newsdetail/20-uk/news/163-mantle-thief





January 2014

Region Block

Originally Posted by Freyja
I've contacted the person in charge of distribution, who said some Asian countries are managed by another branch of Square Enix and that it's entirely possible that preorders are just not open in those areas of the world yet. Preorders are a big deal in the US, but they're less of a common practice in other territories.

So, as far as we can tell, it's not a permanent region block, just a matter of time before it shows up in Steam for your country.





December 2013



Eidos Montreal's Thief Remake Devs Want 1080p and 60FPS for Next-Gen Consoles, but Not at Sacrifice of Physics

Since Thief is set to be the first big project from the company in 2014, the developer is aiming to boost the game with the highest resolution and frame rates possible.

Lead level designer Daniel Windfeld-Schmidt was recently in an interview with Gamingbolt where he discussed the upcoming stealth title from the company, while also revealing details about the game’s frame rates and resolution that’s intended for it.

Additionally, Windfeld-Schmidt was also asked if it was difficult to match the earlier appeal of the Thief series when the team decided to expand on the gameplay with new technology offered via next generation consoles. He stated:

“When revisiting an existing license there are always things to be aware of and treat with respect and the studio are approaching the Thief franchise in the same way we did with Deus Ex; taking a lot of time studying what made the original games so interesting and then working out what we need to do to ensure the essence of those games is intact.”

“For example the light and dark mechanics, the bow, the arrowheads and so on all have to remain – plus they’re cool to use so it’s an easy choice. We also kept the fact that you can complete Thief without knocking anyone out or killing anyone. You still have that choice; that is an essential in what makes a Thief game. It’ focus is on stealing,” he added.

“We didn’t fall into the temptation to force players to shoot anyone or to do anything in that direction. We want to make sure that stand alone experience that Thief was in the original series is still what retained in Thief.”

Thief is currently scheduled for releases on PC, PlayStation 4 & PlayStation 3, and Xbox One & Xbox 360 on February 25, 2014.



Read the full interview here:
http://www.gamenguide.com/articles/8932/20131212/eidos-montreals-thief-remake-devs-want-1080p-60fps-next-gen-physics.htm


September 2013



Thief Developer Q&A: PS4, DualShock 4 Secrets Revealed
With the power of shadows at his beck and call, master thief Garrett returns to PS3 and PS4 in 2014 with a new bag of tricks. The well-loved stealth series has always empowered gamers with a broad array of in-game choices, whether it was using lethal or nonlethal tactics to drop nosy guards, or leveraging magic and technology to overcome adversity. The upcoming Thief is no exception.

In order to learn more about Thief’s stealth systems, storytelling, and PS4 benefits, we turned to Producer Stephane Roy. He shared some incredible insight into Thief’s design process, and even sheds new light on how DualShock 4 will empower PS4 thieves.


Read the full interview here:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2013/09/24/thief-on-ps4-developer-qa/



June 2013


Thief on Steam
http://store.steampowered.com/video/239160



How much can the pre-alpha version be improved and 'tweaked for purists' from present state


Don't worry, EM has a strong history with current gen development stemming from both DXHR, The Missing Link and Tomb Raider - this will be another feather in the teams cap. The real extra work will fall on Stephane and the management teams shoulders - lots of spreadsheets and checklists to be made for sure ;)

Coding and scripting is all done in the same language, then exported and compiled for each platform. So aside from configuring the build tools, it's minimal extra workload there. Same goes for the art assets - while some textures/models will need to be down-res'd to fit the current gen memory limits, the exact same base assets are used to create the final versions regardless of the end platform - so again, quite minimal extra workload there as well. As far as testing/QA, Eidos-Montreal hosts Square Enix's largest QA department in the company - these guys handle almost all testing and QA work for all Square Enix titles, right here, in house. There is plenty of bandwidth on that team to ensure we can deliver the quality Thief deserves :)



Hey guys,

We've just shared a new EM Community video - special announcement edition via the Eidos-Montreal Community Blog - Check it out here! (http://community.eidosmontreal.com/blogs/Thief-Generations?theme=thief)






'Thief' will receive "a lot of love" on PC, says Eidos Montreal


Game director Nic Cantin said that while all versions of the title will offer the same features, on PC it will be "unique" due to its controls.
The Xbox One and PlayStation 4 [will be similar] because it's console, but honestly for the PC version, it's unique," he told Digital Spy.

"The control and this franchise is really a PC product, so we're going to give a lot of love to the PC version also.

"It's not true that PC and consoles are the same thing. Again, just for the control, for example. We have to make sure we really work specifically on that. That said, for the features and stuff like that, yes, it's the same game."

Cantin recently said that Xbox One's Kinect and the PS4 touch pad will be used in the game.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a487710/thief-will-receive-a-lot-of-love-on-pc-says-eidos-montreal.html



SUNNYVALE, Calif. —6/11/2013
AMD (NYSE: AMD) today announced exclusive collaboration with Square Enix to optimize “THIEF™” for the Graphics Core Next architecture in select AMD Radeon™ graphics processors, as well as the x86 and graphics architectures featured in AMD A-Series APUs. Developed in conjunction with the AMD Gaming Evolved program, "THIEF" will extensively leverage the advanced capabilities of AMD Radeon™ graphics processors, including AMD Eyefinity multi-display technology for panoramic gaming, AMD CrossFire™ multi-GPU technology for supreme performance, and state-of-the-art DirectX® 11 rendering for pristine image quality.

“The 'THIEF' franchise has a storied history that we are proud to join in this latest installment,” said Matt Skynner, corporate vice president and general manager, Graphics Business Unit, AMD. “We are even more pleased to work so closely with their development team to realize the vision for these games with the incredible gaming performance of a PC powered by AMD Radeon™ graphics. And as the exclusive hardware partner for 'THIEF,' we continue to demonstrate that the best experience for gamers and developers lives at AMD with the Gaming Evolved program.”

http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases/pages/amd-gaming-evolved-2013jun11.aspx



It is confirmed Eidos Montreal is using a highly modified version of UNREAL ENGINE 3 for Thief
Thief will be available in 2014 for PC, PlayStation®4, and other next-generation consoles.








___________




In my mind, Thief 3 was almost completely ruined by being developed multiplatform, it massively dumbed down the 3rd installment for the console users and I think I'm right in saying that a decent portion of the PC fans were quite dissapointed.

If you want a role model for Thief 4 then look no further than Thief 2, the developers of the original 2 games made a bold statement, no elements of the game were sacraficed in order to give the game a mass market appeal.

So here's my list of complaints with Thief 3 in no real particular order


Arrow trails, bright shiney arrow trails that were left behind, the sort of thing you expect coming out the back of a sword in a manga movie, great for futuristic japanese cartoons, bad for steampunk medievil.
Bright blue obnoxious opaque highlighting on everything, instead of the subtle transparent light grey, this was so "in your face" it's untrue.
3rd person view.
Removal of rope arrows, and subsequently the sort of puzzles that required them...thats a major facepalm right there.
Loading parts in level, the PC version had them and didn't need them, neither the originals had loading zones and Thief 2 in particular had some city sized maps, the restrictions of the consoles were brought to the PC once again. They could have at least made them a door or something like that, but they put these stupid looking blue swirly clouds all over the place, again just "in your face" obnoxious.
Glinting loot, apparantly console players can't find loot on their own like you had to in the originals, it has to have a massive glint on it to show you what was valuable and made it easier to find in the dark.
Easy lock picking, it looked good at first but while theres analogue movement around the circle the only sweet spots are at the N,S,E,W positions, so you just tap WASD quickly to find it and click, you could pick even the hardest locks in a second. Locks in the originals reuqired fiddling between sets of lock picks and had a minimum time delay to pick, this was great tension building if you had to be in the light to pick the lock and there was patrols about, you'd be bouncing up and down in your chair shouting "c'mooooon" at the screen afraid a guard would spot you and blow all your hard work.
Movement was god awful, it was clearly built a 3rd person game and 1st person view was an afterthought it seems, it was awkward as your body rotated in strange ways making movement in 1st person extremely irritating.
The back to the wall feature cheapened the game, it made you practically impossible to spot in even mildly dark areas, it was a sort of failsafe that always worked, no need to plan ahead and monitor guard routes, and time everything well, just pop out of the shadows and if a guard comes hug the wall and safe as houses, just lame.


You'll see most of these isues stem from cross platform development, the restrictions of the hardware in the console versions made for a reduction in level sizes without loading zones. The average skill in a first person environment by the average console player with a gamepad was no where close to being agile enough to control Garrett from Thief1&2 so 3rd person was added to allow you to cheat a look around corners, the wall hug was added to make hiding easy, rope arrows that required a great amount of 3D orientation were removed.

Basically the tone of the whole game for 1&2 was that you were an elite thief, the best of the best who could sneak in and steal everything and leave without a single guard being alerted, and it even spawned the idea of "ghosting" from the fans where this was a made up condition to beat the level.

I don't have problems with consoles getting their own Thief game, and I dont have problems with it being toned down in the skill section, and the graphics section in order to be viable for the platform.

Please just PLEASE, I beg you, keep that seperate from the PC version, build 2 entirely seperate games if that is what is required to keep the design for the PC to the quality of the originals, I am a massive fan of the series and Thief 2 is overall my top1 game even to this day, I love everything about the games and really want to see the quality of Thief 2 come back driven with modern technology, but fear we'll just have another Thief 3

Take a look at Yahtzees review of the series here - http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/544-Thief-The-Dark-Project He gives Thief 1 and 2 praise and slays Thief 3, I emplore you to pay attention to this feedback early in development and make the adjustments now to please both crowds, otherwise you'll destroy the franchise on the PC.

P.S While we're on the subject of consolitis can we make sure that a multiplatform developed title has proper PC screen aspect ratio support (4:3, 5:3 and 16:10) for the resolutions, proper widescreen support - that is to say widescreen is added Horizontal width and not minus vertical height (pay attention to www.widescreengaimgforum.com if you need to learn how to do it correctly), no mouse acceleration or at least let us disable mouse acceleration. A proper Field of View angle, it should be approx 90 degrees for 4:3 and 103 degrees for 16:10, again see WSGF, these are ALL typical problems with games developed for the consoles as well as the PC and can all easily be avoided.

Grimmy
11th May 2009, 19:58
Very damn well said! You actually pointed out the annoying things that haven't appeared here yet, this post should be stickied until the release of the game to remind the devs what not to include. All the stuff and so much more made me not wanna play T3 again, whereas i'm playing t1 and t2 FM's all the time. Makes you think, right?

GmanPro
11th May 2009, 20:05
Well, get ready for over 9000 posts exactly like this one for the next three years lawl. Though I fear some of this stuff will just be ignored by the devs in the end. But I'm with you!!

Icky6
11th May 2009, 20:06
Well for them to make two completely separate games is unrealistic, unfortunately. Everything else I pretty much agree with.

FadedEchos
11th May 2009, 21:24
Well for them to make two completely separate games is unrealistic, unfortunately. Everything else I pretty much agree with.

You know what else is unrealistic? Creating an online platform the ties together every one of your company's games, expanding that into a market for selling said games, creating free downloadable content for them, and then adding games from other developers.

Err, I mean Steam. Everyone absolutely loves Valve because of things like this and their devotion to quality above all else. Taking that 'unrealistic' viewpoint that creates extraordinary results.

Or you could look at splinter cell: double agent. One version for the last gen consoles, and one for the current gen and PC. Two separate games is not an unrealistic proposition, and if the combined that with an awesome PC version Eidos will be on the path towards gamer love and massive profits.

Second to Valve, that is ;)

Subjective Effect
11th May 2009, 21:29
Movement was god awful, it was clearly built a 3rd person game and 1st person view was an afterthought it seems, it was awkward as your body rotated in strange ways making movement in 1st person extremely irritating.
This was what killed it for me. The movement mechanics and the engine ruined everything that was so good in Thief 1 and 2.

The same mistake again would be... unfortunate.

imported_van_HellSing
11th May 2009, 21:33
You know what else is unrealistic? Creating an online platform the ties together every one of your company's games, expanding that into a market for selling said games, creating free downloadable content for them, and then adding games from other developers.

Err, I mean Steam. Everyone absolutely loves Valve because of things like this and their devotion to quality above all us. Taking that 'unrealistic' viewpoint that creates extraordinary results.

Or you could look at splinter cell: double agent. One version for the last gen consoles, and one for the current gen and PC. Two separate games is not an unrealistic proposition, and if the combined that with an awesome PC version Eidos will be on the path towards gamer love and massive profits.

Second to Valve, that is ;)

You speak gibberish. Steam is one of the worst things to happen in the last few years.

EDIT: Luckily, Eidos knows that: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=86542

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
11th May 2009, 21:35
OP - very well said! While I still consider DS a good game, it indeed suffered from consolitis.
Build Thief 4 as a PC GAME - then dumb down the console versions if you so desire. Take advantage of the possibilities PC provides, stop this "the game is the same across all platforms" nonsense - if something can't be done on consoles, implement it in the PC version instead of throwing it out the window completely.

Danie1
11th May 2009, 21:38
To the OP: I summarized it in another thread, but in short you want immersion breaking elements removed.

I had no clue the player mechanics were built around third person in Thief DS, but now that I think about it, that makes sense. It was a very unpleasant feeling to be moving, bobbing around like I was hitting every pothole on Route 66.

column5
11th May 2009, 21:38
I subscribe to basically everything Princess_Frosty said.

Mshade
11th May 2009, 22:21
It's obviously going to be multiplatform for PC, xbox 360, and ps3. I have faith that they will be able to successful develop the game multiplatformed. The technology of both the xbox360 and ps3 should be able to handle whatever engine Thief IV uses. Obviously PC will have better textures and resolutions but the next-gen consoles are powerful enough to handle whatever Eidos Montreal can throw at them.

Stoic
11th May 2009, 22:31
The purpose of this message is not to say consoles are superior to PC's, and I do not want to start some strange fanboy upset. I acknowledge and understand that PC's are capable of more when it comes to video games. All of that prior stuff being said, I would like to make a casual observation.

When Thief: Deadly Shadows was released, it was released for PC and Xbox systems. The Xbox had already been out for years and pushed to its graphical maximum. The Xbox was not a great system, only a starting point to something better. Thief: Deadly Shadows was created near the end of Xbox and relatively close to the beginning of the Xbox 360. Literally, Thief: Deadly shadows came out one year before the release of the Xbox 360. The hardware in Xbox had not been upgraded since 2001, which means that three years of PC improvements had passed and the Xbox stood still. Naturally, Thief: Deadly Shadows was garbage on the Xbox and the PC version showed signs of the crummy console counterpart. I see your complaint, and I agree with it for the most part.

When it comes to the Xbox 360, you have some of the most graphically impressive titles to grace the gaming world. No, we have not seen Crysis on consoles, but we have seen Gears of War 2 and Call of Duty 4, both of which are amazing games. The Xbox was utterly incapable of creating an immersive experience due to its graphical limitations. The Xbox360 does not have this problem. I understand that the Xbox360 has been out for 4 years, which means PC's have improved that much, and the Xbox360 has not. We could potentially have the same problem we did with Thief: Deadly Shadows. I would argue that the Xbox360 is not graphically limited to the point where it will dampen your PC gameplay experience. The Xbox360 is a phenomenal piece of hardware (when it works).

The developers would actually make more money and a better game by hacking off you PC people and doing a straight console game that is well developed, such as Gears of War 2, and port the game over to you all later with graphical improvements. The market for the Xbox360 is much better than your market. People, including myself, prefer to play games on their 60" plasma televisions with 7.1 surround sound and 1080i.

Just because you think that you have to hack off "skillz" or whatever because PC's are more capable, does not mean that the PC is superior. The market rates superiority on accessibility, and the Xbox360 is a much more accessible platform. Just because we don't have a keyboard, does not mean that we don't have the ability to play at the same level as you. If you have not played a great FPS on the Xbox360 yet, I tell you it is a must. They are not limited in 3D ability. Puzzle-solving is the same. You would be silly to think that the PC is more capable of providing a 3D world in the sense of "using rope arrows to solve puzzles." I do agree the PC could provide larger worlds with less loading, but like I said, this does not mean that the masses will like it more.

I hope you understand that Eidos would be wise to make a straight console game that ports over to you all later. The Xbox360 has hardware capable of alleviating all of the complaints you listed above.

Good luck flaming me. I know that this is somehow going to be offensive to some of you. But remember what I said at the beginning, I acknowledge the PC is a better machine than a console. I am just remarking on the fact that consoles are not as limited now as they once were, and that companies will make more money if they develop straight console games that can be ported to PC gamers later on.

NewUser2
11th May 2009, 22:39
Many games are ported for consoles. Due to the lack of control and many other limits on consoles I feel many games are striped down heavily in overall quality just to be playable on consoles.. like xbox360,PS3 etc.. On the computer with mouse and keyboard the game have so much more possibilities, on console with a bad controller-pad everything gets crippled down. So many things that are possible with mouse + keyboard are not possible with gamepad and everything have to be crippled down so a player on gamepad can play.

The way levels start, menus are created, settings, movement and level design, effects and content in game have to be crippled just to fit consoles lower standards.. and the worst thing is the slow loading times everywhere in consoles.. please spare us from this.

Many great games have been ruined this way.
Please dont let consoles cripple all possibilities, ignore consoles and only make the game for PC so the game can be the best possible.

-sorry for my spelling erros, english is not my native language.-

Gan Xodos
11th May 2009, 22:41
In my mind, Thief 3 was almost completely ruined by being developed multiplatform, it massively dumbed down the 3rd installment for the console users and I think I'm right in saying that a decent portion of the PC fans were quite dissapointed.

If you want a role model for Thief 4 then look no further than Thief 2, the developers of the original 2 games made a bold statement, no elements of the game were sacraficed in order to give the game a mass market appeal.

So here's my list of complaints with Thief 3 in no real particular order


Arrow trails, bright shiney arrow trails that were left behind, the sort of thing you expect coming out the back of a sword in a manga movie, great for futuristic japanese cartoons, bad for steampunk medievil.
Bright blue obnoxious opaque highlighting on everything, instead of the subtle transparent light grey, this was so "in your face" it's untrue.
3rd person view.
Removal of rope arrows, and subsequently the sort of puzzles that required them...thats a major facepalm right there.
Loading parts in level, the PC version had them and didn't need them, neither the originals had loading zones and Thief 2 in particular had some city sized maps, the restrictions of the consoles were brought to the PC once again. They could have at least made them a door or something like that, but they put these stupid looking blue swirly clouds all over the place, again just "in your face" obnoxious.
Glinting loot, apparantly console players can't find loot on their own like you had to in the originals, it has to have a massive glint on it to show you what was valuable and made it easier to find in the dark.
Easy lock picking, it looked good at first but while theres analogue movement around the circle the only sweet spots are at the N,S,E,W positions, so you just tap WASD quickly to find it and click, you could pick even the hardest locks in a second. Locks in the originals reuqired fiddling between sets of lock picks and had a minimum time delay to pick, this was great tension building if you had to be in the light to pick the lock and there was patrols about, you'd be bouncing up and down in your chair shouting "c'mooooon" at the screen afraid a guard would spot you and blow all your hard work.
Movement was god awful, it was clearly built a 3rd person game and 1st person view was an afterthought it seems, it was awkward as your body rotated in strange ways making movement in 1st person extremely irritating.
The back to the wall feature cheapened the game, it made you practically impossible to spot in even mildly dark areas, it was a sort of failsafe that always worked, no need to plan ahead and monitor guard routes, and time everything well, just pop out of the shadows and if a guard comes hug the wall and safe as houses, just lame.


You'll see most of these isues stem from cross platform development, the restrictions of the hardware in the console versions made for a reduction in level sizes without loading zones. The average skill in a first person environment by the average console player with a gamepad was no where close to being agile enough to control Garrett from Thief1&2 so 3rd person was added to allow you to cheat a look around corners, the wall hug was added to make hiding easy, rope arrows that required a great amount of 3D orientation were removed.

Basically the tone of the whole game for 1&2 was that you were an elite thief, the best of the best who could sneak in and steal everything and leave without a single guard being alerted, and it even spawned the idea of "ghosting" from the fans where this was a made up condition to beat the level.

I don't have problems with consoles getting their own Thief game, and I dont have problems with it being toned down in the skill section, and the graphics section in order to be viable for the platform.

Please just PLEASE, I beg you, keep that seperate from the PC version, build 2 entirely seperate games if that is what is required to keep the design for the PC to the quality of the originals, I am a massive fan of the series and Thief 2 is overall my top1 game even to this day, I love everything about the games and really want to see the quality of Thief 2 come back driven with modern technology, but fear we'll just have another Thief 3

Take a look at Yahtzees review of the series here - http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/544-Thief-The-Dark-Project He gives Thief 1 and 2 praise and slays Thief 3, I emplore you to pay attention to this feedback early in development and make the adjustments now to please both crowds, otherwise you'll destroy the franchise on the PC.

P.S While we're on the subject of consolitis can we make sure that a multiplatform developed title has proper PC screen aspect ratio support (4:3, 5:3 and 16:10) for the resolutions, proper widescreen support - that is to say widescreen is added Horizontal width and not minus vertical height (pay attention to www.widescreengaimgforum.com if you need to learn how to do it correctly), no mouse acceleration or at least let us disable mouse acceleration. A proper Field of View angle, it should be approx 90 degrees for 4:3 and 103 degrees for 16:10, again see WSGF, these are ALL typical problems with games developed for the consoles as well as the PC and can all easily be avoided.

I agree in just about everything although I have only played Thief 3 for pc I still consider it one of the best games ever.
I love the shalebridge cradle (please get the guy who designed that in the team! although I guess it's impossible now that he's working on bioshock 2 for 2K Marin :()
And most of all I love the city and all the sounds in the game in an incredible way, it really adds a layer of detail and immersion that few games have.
Please keep doing cartoons for the cutscenes!
Don't care for 3d person as long as you have a solid movement system
Graphics must be top notch but it will be nothing without good art direction (and sound XD), remember that!

column5
11th May 2009, 22:42
I hope you understand that Eidos would be wise to make a straight console game that ports over to you all later. The Xbox360 has hardware capable of alleviating all of the complaints you listed above.

I think you are right on when it comes to todays console hardware being far more capable that the contemporary systems available when TDS was released.

I only take issue with the comment above.

EM would be far better off creating a worthy Thief game for the PC--maximizing that platform--and then porting to the consoles, scaling it down as necessary. This path, IMO, would result in the best possible game on all platforms, which is what we all want.

Stoic
11th May 2009, 23:08
I think you are right on when it comes to todays console hardware being far more capable that the contemporary systems available when TDS was released.

I only take issue with the comment above.

EM would be far better off creating a worthy Thief game for the PC--maximizing that platform--and then porting to the consoles, scaling it down as necessary. This path, IMO, would result in the best possible game on all platforms, which is what we all want.

I appreciate your feedback. I just think that they would make more money doing the console version first and then using profits from that to develop an amazing PC game loaded with "extras." I would buy both versions.

Gan Xodos
11th May 2009, 23:09
so true... doubt they'll do that though...
hay at least wait to release the pc version even if you finish the console versions first because it negatively affects sales and views of the pc version which should be the ultimate version.

Gan Xodos
11th May 2009, 23:10
so true... doubt they'll do that though...
hay at least wait to release the pc version even if you finish the console versions first because it negatively affects sales and views of the pc version which should be the ultimate version.

Gan Xodos
11th May 2009, 23:24
I mean pc sales. I don't care about consoles, but if they release it for consoles first, no one will know of the awesomeness of the pc version because they wouldn't give it a second chance if they didn't like it on console. A unified release will also put it under the limelight more

Dia1
11th May 2009, 23:24
Well, get ready for over 9000 posts exactly like this one for the next three years lawl. Though I fear some of this stuff will just be ignored by the devs in the end. But I'm with you!!

I loved this post from a fellow TTLG'er (regarding the devs seeking our input when creating TDS):


Originally Posted by RGL
Didn't the Thief 3 request for comments go something like this.

devs - "what would you like to see in 3?"

us - "well we really like rope arrows, it'd be great if they were enhanced somehow."

devs - "the engine won't do rope arrows - NEXT!"

us - :thumb:

Let's hope it doesn't go like that this time.

Gan Xodos
11th May 2009, 23:25
yeah really

NewUser2
11th May 2009, 23:37
Just because we don't have a keyboard, does not mean that we don't have the ability to play at the same level as you.
.
The reason console players can play same levels as people with keyboard and mouse is because the whole games have to be crippled down for consoles to be even playable with a controller. If you play a lots of computer games and a lot of console games you will notice its so much easier to move and control things with mouse and keyboard, its so much more accurate and fast.
You will also notice menus,settings and pop-up screens in games barley exist in console games, because they are annoying and difficult to interact with with a controller and with most and keyboard u don't even mind them.
A simple thing like picking up an item in your inventory, dropping it on your character is a pain in the a** on the console but no problem at all on PC. Already here a lot of possibilities are lost. Try the game "two worlds" for example..

Everything in the game that has to do with movements,clicks and accuracy has to be reduced as much as possible in console games mostly due to the lack of a good controller that can do the same amazing stuff as mouse and keyboard.
And even though lots of stuff are removed the most simple thing takes a lot more time to do on a console the the PC, everything you do takes more time on a console witch make you as a game feel crippled.

It does not matter how much you train with a controller you will never be as good and fast as a average guy on mouse and keyboard. Therefor games are crippled down very much so a 14 year old kid still can play the games on his xbox360 and without having to learn to use a controller like a keyboard. As much menus and elements in the games that involve, fast and accurate movement, clicking, turning/looking around etc.. has to be reduced and removed as much as possible or else the game would not be playable with a controller.

More and more automatic stuff have to be added, auto aim, stuff you could do by yourself are automated instead etc..

When you play this crippled games on a computer you feel sorry, you will feel a lack of quality and opportunities that other computer games have.

And if you want to play games on you 60" plasma with 7.1 sound, just plug it in to your computer.

MasterTaffer
11th May 2009, 23:46
Arrow trails, bright shiney arrow trails that were left behind, the sort of thing you expect coming out the back of a sword in a manga movie, great for futuristic japanese cartoons, bad for steampunk medievil.

That's bad art direction, not pandering to console audiences.


Bright blue obnoxious opaque highlighting on everything, instead of the subtle transparent light grey, this was so "in your face" it's untrue.

Once again, bad art direction.


3rd person view.

I can almost garuntee that this would have been in DS if it were a PC exclusive. I recall developer diaries on it being stumbled upon as a side effect of creating realistic player shadows and they decided to impliment it. Nothing to do with the console market.


Removal of rope arrows, and subsequently the sort of puzzles that required them...thats a major facepalm right there.

Rope arrows were certainly a loss, but they stemmed from the animation involved fromt he visual player model, not because console gamers can't understand a rope tied to an arrow.


Loading parts in level, the PC version had them and didn't need them, neither the originals had loading zones and Thief 2 in particular had some city sized maps, the restrictions of the consoles were brought to the PC once again. They could have at least made them a door or something like that, but they put these stupid looking blue swirly clouds all over the place, again just "in your face" obnoxious.

This is the only part of your arguement that might have had an effect from console limitations. But at the same time I may also doubt that. Games like Splinter Cell Chaos Theory had huge environments that put Deadly Shadows' to shame, and it saw an amazing console release.

As for the blue swirling mystical smoke of transportation, that falls under bad art direction again.


Glinting loot, apparantly console players can't find loot on their own like you had to in the originals, it has to have a massive glint on it to show you what was valuable and made it easier to find in the dark.

Now you're just assuming console gamers are idiots, and that's not only false, but also terribly arrogant and insulting of you. You paint the picture of a player with the mentality of a 4 year old who needs bright shiney stimuli to keep his attention.

This is a bad art direction scenario. Next one.


Easy lock picking, it looked good at first but while theres analogue movement around the circle the only sweet spots are at the N,S,E,W positions, so you just tap WASD quickly to find it and click, you could pick even the hardest locks in a second. Locks in the originals reuqired fiddling between sets of lock picks and had a minimum time delay to pick, this was great tension building if you had to be in the light to pick the lock and there was patrols about, you'd be bouncing up and down in your chair shouting "c'mooooon" at the screen afraid a guard would spot you and blow all your hard work.

Coming up with a lockpicking system is admirable on Ion Storm's part, considering the original two games had a "point, click, repeat" approach that wasn't all that deep. Was it the best version of a lockpick system I've ever seen? No. But atleast they tried something.


Movement was god awful, it was clearly built a 3rd person game and 1st person view was an afterthought it seems, it was awkward as your body rotated in strange ways making movement in 1st person extremely irritating.

Yes, movement was awkward becaus eof 3rd person, but I already described how 3rd person was not the fault of "consoletards" as you seem to paint it.


The back to the wall feature cheapened the game, it made you practically impossible to spot in even mildly dark areas, it was a sort of failsafe that always worked, no need to plan ahead and monitor guard routes, and time everything well, just pop out of the shadows and if a guard comes hug the wall and safe as houses, just lame.


You know, I have yet to see a bullet point of yours that can be blamed on these mythical "Dumb Consolites" that you spin fables of. This one is no different. Most of the ills you've listed were the fault of Ion Storm's misplaced faith in their game engine from Deus Ex, even though it proved to be very jerky and taxing. They also made very poor choices on gameplay and visual design, being very seperated from the fanbase, unlike LGS. Then again, Ion Storm isn't known for their great judgement *Cough*Daikatana*Cough*.

Blaming the console demographic has always been a scapegoat that has painted the PC gamer as a very arrogant prick. Being someone who partakes in ever gaming platform of this generation, including PC and handhelds, I know for a fact that console gamers aren't idiots. Unfortunately, there's considerable percentage of PC gamers who act like they are superior simply because they use a mouse and keyboard.

Final thought: Grow up and stop using console gamers as a scapegoat.

Smiffydude
12th May 2009, 00:01
I don't blame devs and publishers for following the money, I just wish console users were more demanding in terms of gameplay. Consolitis is far more deadly than swine flu, its why there have been so few truly great games this decade.

Bring back 1998 1999 but in DirectX 10, that would be sweet.

SatrianiruleZ
12th May 2009, 04:06
The back to the wall feature cheapened the game, it made you practically impossible to spot in even mildly dark areas, it was a sort of failsafe that always worked, no need to plan ahead and monitor guard routes, and time everything well, just pop out of the shadows and if a guard comes hug the wall and safe as houses, just lame.
[

I disagree.
All they have to do is rework the AI to be less dumb and know how to really look for the player, and react decently.
Backing yourself up against a wall is a common movement for someone who's trying to avoid being seen (ie: movies, and other games)
Have you played that recent game Velvet Assassin? It doesn't have the back to the wall thingie, and it's one of the reasons it sucks.
.

Bloodwolf806
12th May 2009, 04:34
Oh please...If this was Xbox or PS2 Id understand, but this is 360 and PS3. Look at Mass Effect, Fallout 3 or Final Fantasy XII. You no longer need to sacrafice quality for accessability.

hem dazon 90
12th May 2009, 05:48
I want the console game to be the same as the PC one. nobody gets dumbed down

kkk1
12th May 2009, 06:46
People, including myself, prefer to play games on their 60" plasma televisions with 7.1 surround sound and 1080i.
so are you a tough guy huh.? If u so advanced, u must knew, that on PC u can do all same things even more(higher resulution, 9.1 if u whant). Yours box's hardware is garbage compare to PC. I dont care on which platforms it will be released while it does not influence on PC version.

Thievingtaffer
12th May 2009, 07:26
PC > Consoles
Reason: Fan Missions and Mods

GmanPro
12th May 2009, 07:26
The consoles have so many limitations that the PC does not have. Mainly the gamepad. So the console version will not be the same as the PC version. Its guaranteed.

I will be playing this game on PC because I enjoy my enhanced visuals, my short load times, the freedom of my mouse and keyboard, player made mods etc.


People, including myself, prefer to play games on their 60" plasma televisions with 7.1 surround sound and 1080i.

Lol. If I wanted to play my games sitting 15 feet away from the screen I could just plug my computer into the tv. But I happen to enjoy the higher resolution on my monitor and the enhanced immersion of being closer to the game.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th May 2009, 07:40
I will play T4 on my PC too. :)

Jables_Kage
12th May 2009, 08:00
i agree if they do another console port to pc i will be pissed! although thief 3 wasabove average it didnt compare to the likes of thief 2. oh and if you are going to say you have limitless freedom then give it to us and not restrict us to a handful of homes to rob!!! more freedom in this one plz!

Terr
12th May 2009, 09:24
You know what else is unrealistic? Creating an online platform the ties together every one of your company's games, expanding that into a market for selling said games, creating free downloadable content for them, and then adding games from other developers.

Err, I mean Steam. Everyone absolutely loves Valve
I play TF2 a lot, and I like Valve because they made a good game. But there have been some major snafus recently in terms of updates that cause everybody to crash and the like. Now, part of that may be "we have a tighter release cycle, the impact is less, so let's not worry as much as if we were shipping a box"... But I've still seen the model go bad before.


Or you could look at splinter cell: double agent. One version for the last gen consoles, and one for the current gen and PC.
And I hear both were incredibly buggy, to the extent that certain listed optional mission objectives were literally impossible because nobody realized that a certain door needed to be openable.

_____________________________

Ideally, the game would be "PC complex" but have some control interface which allowed gamepad players to use the extra features. Heck, have a key bound to "other stuff" that pops up a radial interface for lesser-used actions e.g. pressing against a wall.

dogsolitude_uk
12th May 2009, 11:41
Hi folks,

I've not been around the Thief forums for a few years, but I've followed the console/PC debates for long enough to be familiar with most of the premises.

I mainly game on the PC, but woe betide anyone who rubbishes consoles. Games like Ico and Shadow of the Colossus converted me totally to the wonderful opportunities afforded by console platforms, and having a good platformer on hand is a l;ifestyle essential in my book.

What devs, designers and publishers need to remember is that PCs and Consoles are very different animals, and as such they lend themselves to different styles of games and control systems.

Here are some of the salient differences (in my view at least):

PC games

- Have keyboard and mouse
- Played sitting up at a desk, close to screen
- Often played alone
- Long periods of time devoted to game

Console Games

- Have a controller
- Played from sofa/beanbag/whilst lounging round on the floor
- Often played with friends
- Often played for short periods.

These little lists alone call for radical departures in game design.

Controls

The PC keyboard and mouse allows you to quickly flick around inventory screens, maps, objective screens and so on. Doing this is a pain in the bottom on consoles. Cursor movement is usually by joystick for a start, which is a pain compared to using a mouse.

Try playing Deus Ex or Oblivion on a console (they're both avaialable on PS2). It's utterly unfair on console players to expect them to enjoy games like that as much when they have to jump through hoops with fiddly screens. Imagine trying to drop some stuff during a firefight!

A game like X3, for example, would be utterly unplayable on a console without a serious rethink in terms of control method.

The thing is though these work perfectly for the PC. We're used to opening windows for stuff. Need for Speed Underground 2's interface worked beatifully on my PS2, but was really frustrating on the PC because I had to scroll through options and select them, rather than having them all out on one screen in a row where I could click whichever one I wanted.

Playing Position

I love first person games, but on my old PS2 I far prefer third-person views. The first-person, through-the-eyes view works well on a monitor where you're sitting up and close to the action. The mouse was almost made for mouselook.

On the PC I far, far prefer first-person games. They are far more immersive. The Cradle simply wouldn't have the same impact in third-person.

On a console it's sluggish and annoying. Far better to play in third person, from a distance on a console. You don't have to shift view as often, and the extra scope to see things in your immediate vicinity makes up for not being able to shift the view round accurately or quickly using a gamepad in first-person view.

Third person FTW on consoles, every time.

Alone or with Friends?

If you're playing a game alone on a PC, you can take your time. You don't have to worry about having someone with you who may be getting bored by your waiting in an alcove for the guards to move to a certain position. You can go on long, boring excursions in STALKER to satisfy your curiosity about something, or fly around aimlessly looking for things in X3.

Essentially, you can take a slow, deep game style and make it work.

Imagine doing that on a console, in the living room, with a bunch of mates: "Come on, when's something gonna happen?"

Maybe they're waiting their turn, or perhaps someone wants to use the TV for watching their Family Guy collection.

Long game or quick game?

Most console games need to be able to be swapped about between people if you're playing in a group, after the pub, say. A popular game is often one where you'll pile home after clubbing or whatever, shove it on, and pass the controllers around between you.

If the game's immediately accessible, people will come away saying stuff like "hey, you remember that game we played round Archibald's house on Saturday? They've got it for £15 in Game..."

If said game involves getting to grips with the game logic, then this won't happen, and potential word-of-mouth sales are lost and the game could potentially get a bad rep.

The largely solo nature of PC gaming means that PC gamers can afford to spend more time getting to grips with a game, because they don't have to worry about their mates getting bored or other people wanting to use the TV.

So in conclusion...

Still with me, even after all that?

Cool.

I'd suggest that perhaps development of console and PC versions should diverge at some point. The interfaces and options should definitely differ. If playing on a console I would most certainly not want to be stuck with a slow-moving first person game with loads of options, long levels etc.

If playing on my PC I want the opposite: loads of options, screens, stealth, first-person, full use of mouse and keyboard and huge levels with no loading screens.

To clarify further, I'd like to add that I can't really see myself playing Thief 4 on a console!

Stoic
12th May 2009, 13:15
I don't blame devs and publishers for following the money, I just wish console users were more demanding in terms of gameplay. Consolitis is far more deadly than swine flu, its why there have been so few truly great games this decade.

Bring back 1998 1999 but in DirectX 10, that would be sweet.

So few great games? What are you talking about? I am sitting in front of my Xbox360 selection and looking at Bioshock, Halo 3, The Orange Box, Gears of War, Gears of War 2, Dead Space, The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, Assassins Creed, Far Cry 2, Grand Theft Auto 4, Call of Duty 4, etc. etc.

All of those games above have extremely well thought-out gameplay. They revolutionized something with their presence. Consoles were not their limiting factor, the imaginations of the developers were limited, luckily they were limited to great ideas.

Stop blaming consoles for games where the developers lacked imagination. In fact, I went through Gamespot's PC reviews just now and noticed that you "oh so advanced" PC people squeeze out highly unpolished and unfinished games/turds all the time-- granted the biggest offenders are real time strategy games, but there are a fair number of action games on there.

There were more great games this decade than there were 80's and 90's combined. I am sure that you have a silly idea of how great games were in the 80's and 90's due to some strange nostalgia for your childhood computer days (I know I have that nostalgia, but I also have reason), but don't actually think those games were better or more groundbreaking. Yeah, Half-Life, Doom, Duke Nukem, and a few other titles broke the mold in the 1990's, but that is really about it. I am sure you will flame that with some game I left off, like Diablo, but none the less, your idea of what is a great game and what the rest of us consider a great game is definitely off. If you played Gears of War 2 or the most recent Killzone or one of the other MANY great games that has come out this decade, I think you would sing a different tune.

Consoles demand fine-tuned well-thought out gameplay. With the playstation 3 and Xbox360, we have seen them pump out highly polished games with phenomenal balls-to-the-wall gameplay.

Crysis aside, I have seen very few games on the PC that offer the thrill-ride that most of these console games on these two systems have given in the past few years. Face it, the PC is a wonderful piece of hardware that is expensive to upkeep, has loads of flaws Devs have to get around, such as mixing a PCI-Express SLI Nvidia with PCI-Express SLI ATI cards in the same system and 8GB of ram and blah blah blah. Face it, the PC is more difficult to assure Devs that its customers aren't going to have problems with its configurations. You have to see a less polished game because the code needs to work with as many different configurations of computers as it can. PC's are becoming polished turds, and they don't polish up so well. Shoot, you may only play on the PC, which would be why you don't have any understanding of the many great titles that have graced the public in the past nine years. Oh, and I am typing this from my Blackbird PC, which handles any game at maximum settings, so please, don't flame me for not understanding how games are on a PC. I just prefer my good ol' fashioned Xbox360 because I can hop online and all of my friends who don't make as much money as me, can still play with me at the same level without having issues with PC hardware.

In short, 2000-2009 has been the best years of game development to-date.

KharN
12th May 2009, 13:25
This is nonsense.. Sorry but it is..

Elder Scrolls Oblivion was the perfect example of a game that can run multi platform.. The Game on PS3, Xbox, PC were identical in every way.. the only difference was PC had far much more scope for "modded content".. Besides that Both PS3 and 360 Console versions of Oblivion were no different than PC versions..

These days the power of the console allows devs to create multi platform games.. and keep them all the same.. The only thing PC has on consoles is the fact you can use mouse and keys.. And if xbox and Sony released USB keyboard and mouse.. tell me what the difference would be..

ALSO note that not everyone has a PC with a great gfx card.. So consoles also have the ability for everyone to play, without suffering laggy gameplay and crappy framerates like most PCs tend to ..

DEF make Thief 4 multi platform.. BUT CERTAINLY do not change the games to suit console.. like i said Oblivion and Bethesda has proved that you can keep a great game the same across all platforms (except maybe wii but is garbage) without changing the gameplay to suit..

PS ** Stoic hit nail on head.. And with the release of Modern Warfare 2.. Bioshock 2.. Prototype ect.. its only going to get better.. This "war on consoles" is pathetic.. I swear most of you are scared youll enjoy it and the PC will stop being your "gaming centre".. psssh

PSS** Dogsolitude.. Seriously.. your claim about "set up" ect was silly.. Really think about this.. Besides a keyboard and mouse the PC has NOTHING else over a console.. Buy a small 15/20 inch high def flatscreen tv.. set up console and tv on a desk.. now all your missing is keyboard and mouse.. And yes ill admit i prefer keyboard and mosue as controsl myself but besides that consoles are amazing machines.. for example.. I had call of duty 4 for PC.. my gfx card isnt the best so the framerate was crap.. i lagged occasionally.. i then bought it for my 360.. and guess what.. playing it on a much larger screen with increased framerate and HD graphics.. Xbox > PC for gaming.. easy

dogsolitude_uk
12th May 2009, 14:06
PSS** Dogsolitude.. Seriously.. your claim about "set up" ect was silly.. Really think about this.. Besides a keyboard and mouse the PC has NOTHING else over a console.. Buy a small 15/20 inch high def flatscreen tv.. set up console and tv on a desk.. now all your missing is keyboard and mouse.. And yes ill admit i prefer keyboard and mosue as controsl myself but besides that consoles are amazing machines.. for example.. I had call of duty 4 for PC.. my gfx card isnt the best so the framerate was crap.. i lagged occasionally.. i then bought it for my 360.. and guess what.. playing it on a much larger screen with increased framerate and HD graphics.. Xbox > PC for gaming.. easy

I completely agree that consoles are amazing machines. I played Oblivion for ages on a mate's PS3, and will be investing in one if/when the prices come down and I get another job :) To be honest I haven't really decided between PS3 and Xbox 360 though, so I may go for the latter.

When I do buy one, I'll be buying it because I want something to play games on in the living room, to replace my old, steam-driven PS2.

The thing is though that most people don't use a PS3/Xbox at a desk with a Sony Keyboard and mouse. The vast majority plonk it in the living room under their 42" plasma TV and play it sitting on the floor, well away from the screen.

As such, if I were to buy Thief 4 on the PS3 I would actually want the game to be optimised for that set up. I'd want to have a third-person view, and menus that are easier to flip through using the controller. This was my only problem with Oblivion on the PS3, was that it hadn't really taken advantage of the differences in controllers.

So yes, I completely agree that the consoles have awesome graphics and sound capabilities. I also agree that if you hook up a console to a USB keyboard and mouse and play it at a table with an LCD display then playing a first-person game on that set up would be prefereable to a third-person game any day of the week.

And so if Thief 4 was to be developed on the PC, and ported straight across to a console, then yep, no difference there.

But how do you think it would play for the millions of console owners who just have the gamepads and the consoles tucked under the TV in the living room though?

On the flipside...

If I'm buying it for the PC I'd definitely want an interface that made the best use of the mouse/keyboard combination (unlike Dead Space, for example. Works beautifully on the consoles, but poorly on the PC).

So what I was suggesting was that at some point in the development process the options and interfaces should be properly optimised for each platform, taking into account the ways the different platforms are used. It's really simple ergonomics more than anything else.

We're lucky with Thief insofar as it's a pretty simple game at heart. You don't have to mess about with inventory screens, stat screens and other stuff as much as you did with, say Deus Ex, and so the controls side of things is pretty simple to port over. They did a reasonable job with Oblivion too (aside from the auto-levelling... Ugh!).

The other thing about the PC is that it's upgradeable. If you have a PCI-E slot, it's easy to upgrade to a decent graphics card, and a memory upgrade is pretty cheap too. When a console comes out it will usually be comparable to a decent-spec PC, but PC tech is constantly updating and after a year or so even an average PC will start to look a bit better.

This means that a degree of scalability needs to be built into the graphics engine.

Oh, and rather off-topic, but have you tried playing through a Powerbeam projector? I borrowed one off work, that was awesome :)

randomtaffer
12th May 2009, 14:13
Just because you don't have a good PC does not mean that consoles beat PCs in general. Just yours.

Again, this is a really simple equation:

Equipment < More Powerful Equipment.

How could any sensible person say otherwise?

The Deuce
12th May 2009, 14:29
I'll throw in my two cents here.

I'm a huge Thief fan. I played I, II, and Gold on the PC.

That said, there is no reason that Thief could not be done right on consoles. I've set it up on my PC to work with a gamepad (with the right stick mapped to mouselook), and frankly, it works better that way. In other games, the WASD+mouse gives you better control than gamepad. Thief is an exception, because movement speed is such an important factor in it. The analogue stick gives you finer control over Garrett's movement speed than the keyboard can, and it requires far less gymnastics on the part of your left hand. It's true that a gamepad can't give you the speedy precision control of a mouse, but it's also true that Thief doesn't really require speedy precision control. It's a stealth game, not a run-n-gun twitch game where you need mouse precision to hit a running guy in the head with a railgun.

Thief 3 did indeed suffer from consolitis, but it wasn't primarily due to hardware restrictions. It was rather that the developers seemed to think they needed to make it more like other console games (such as Splinter Cell and Metal Gear Solid) in order to attract consumers, and ended up creating a half-assed mess that didn't draw in new people, and that simultaneously annoyed long-time fans. They mistakenly thought there would be a market for the game on consoles if they switched it over to 3rd-person view, made loot light up like a Christmas tree, allowed you to kill people more, etc.

Anyhow, guys, it's too much to ask Eidos not to make the game for consoles, or to make two different games. The console market is way bigger, and they'd be insane not to tap it. What we need to do is make clear to them that this doesn't mean they have to screw with the game mechanics, or try vainly to change the game's niche.

Gan Xodos
12th May 2009, 16:09
Bring back 1998 1999 but in DirectX 10, that would be sweet.

DX11 would be better since it'll be out in just 4 months...

Stoic
12th May 2009, 17:19
so are you a tough guy huh.? If u so advanced, u must knew, that on PC u can do all same things even more(higher resulution, 9.1 if u whant). Yours box's hardware is garbage compare to PC. I dont care on which platforms it will be released while it does not influence on PC version.

Read my post a little closer. I acknowledge the PC is superior. Read my other posts, you will see that I own a Blackbird PC, which cost me a whopping $4899, and runs any game on highest details. Further, I am well aware of how to hook it up to televisions and things of that nature. Typically, it is not as much fun as my Xbox360 hooked up to my plasma.

Please read before you respond, you will not make ignorant comments quite so often.

Vladimyre
12th May 2009, 18:23
Each version has it's + and - Personally I'm PC all the way for Mods and FM's. I can get WAY more bang out of my buck for a PC version.

PS. I like pie.

Vladimyre
12th May 2009, 18:46
The_Deuce:

I think the whole purpose for this is to ENCOURAGE people to contribute not stuff ideas into a hole for either pc and or console version. The dev's will make the decision when it comes. The Devs will make the decisions they have to its their jobs. I personally think it's great that they looking for feedback hopefully it helps them do things they wouldn't have thought of themselves. Having more eyes on this type of thing rather than just their ( devs ) can only be a good thing from a creative process standpoint.

kingtaco
12th May 2009, 19:51
I would like to just say that I do not agree with this sentiment. I never play the PC versions of any game, I wont argue that PC versions are better, but I prefer to play games like this in the comfort of my couch with a large screen tv, and not using a mouse and keyboard. PC games distract me from getting work done on my computer, I like having a different environment for gaming and doing work on my computer. (Not to mention I really dont like running windows). I would gladly sacrifice a bit of rendered imagery / speed / ect, for being comfortable when I'm playing the game.


So please make this thief 4 for consoles.

Neb
12th May 2009, 19:54
So please make this thief 4 for consoles.

I don't think there's any chance that they wouldn't.

kkk1
12th May 2009, 20:00
I own a Blackbird PC, which cost me a whopping $4899

People, including myself, prefer to play games on their 60" plasma televisions with 7.1 surround sound and 1080i.
I have Ferrari, shall i insert a foto here?
How u know whats people prefer?! Or whats PC config they have ? U see, not many people have 60'plasma as u, or Ferrari as me. ) You such correct and kind,but all of yours posts is pure **** and its flying around you and your superior devises. I just cant understand how $4899 connect to "Please I beg you, don't let consolitis ruin Thief 4"...so wanna se a foto :)

NewUser2
12th May 2009, 20:37
So few great games? What are you talking about? I am sitting in front of my Xbox360 selection and looking at Bioshock, Halo 3, The Orange Box, Gears of War, Gears of War 2, Dead Space, The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, Assassins Creed, Far Cry 2, Grand Theft Auto 4, Call of Duty 4, etc. etc.

All of those games above have extremely well thought-out gameplay. They revolutionized something with their presence. Consoles were not their limiting factor, the imaginations of the developers were limited, luckily they were limited to great ideas.

Stop blaming consoles for games where the developers lacked imagination. In fact, I went through Gamespot's PC reviews just now and noticed that you "oh so advanced" PC people squeeze out highly unpolished and unfinished games/turds all the time-- granted the biggest offenders are real time strategy games, but there are a fair number of action games on there.

There were more great games this decade than there were 80's and 90's combined. I am sure that you have a silly idea of how great games were in the 80's and 90's due to some strange nostalgia for your childhood computer days (I know I have that nostalgia, but I also have reason), but don't actually think those games were better or more groundbreaking. Yeah, Half-Life, Doom, Duke Nukem, and a few other titles broke the mold in the 1990's, but that is really about it. I am sure you will flame that with some game I left off, like Diablo, but none the less, your idea of what is a great game and what the rest of us consider a great game is definitely off. If you played Gears of War 2 or the most recent Killzone or one of the other MANY great games that has come out this decade, I think you would sing a different tune.

Consoles demand fine-tuned well-thought out gameplay. With the playstation 3 and Xbox360, we have seen them pump out highly polished games with phenomenal balls-to-the-wall gameplay.

Crysis aside, I have seen very few games on the PC that offer the thrill-ride that most of these console games on these two systems have given in the past few years. Face it, the PC is a wonderful piece of hardware that is expensive to upkeep, has loads of flaws Devs have to get around, such as mixing a PCI-Express SLI Nvidia with PCI-Express SLI ATI cards in the same system and 8GB of ram and blah blah blah. Face it, the PC is more difficult to assure Devs that its customers aren't going to have problems with its configurations. You have to see a less polished game because the code needs to work with as many different configurations of computers as it can. PC's are becoming polished turds, and they don't polish up so well. Shoot, you may only play on the PC, which would be why you don't have any understanding of the many great titles that have graced the public in the past nine years. Oh, and I am typing this from my Blackbird PC, which handles any game at maximum settings, so please, don't flame me for not understanding how games are on a PC. I just prefer my good ol' fashioned Xbox360 because I can hop online and all of my friends who don't make as much money as me, can still play with me at the same level without having issues with PC hardware.

In short, 2000-2009 has been the best years of game development to-date.

Man, PC ain't as expensive as u say. You don't need 8GB ram, 1-2 will do fine, You don't need double super expensive GPUs 1 less expensive will do fine.
With an average setup u can play all new games on at least high.
And computer games allow you to change all settings by yourself, so if you have a weak computer you can still play the game fine but without AAx4 or such stuff, and its OK.

For consoles like Xbox360 most people go and buy a 1 000-2 000 Euro TV to get the graphics, so consoles are actually far more expensive then computers after all.
If you plug in you xbox360 to an normal low-res TV you will not be able to see the text in many games and the graphics will be very very bad. So bad you cant play the game.

Games are also less expensive for computers. Many console games cost like 60 and even up to 70 Euros, while computer games mostly cost 40-50 Euros on release.

And if you really think all console games are so "fine-tuned" try play the same games on PC for a few hours and you will notice console games are dumbed down and that a lots of quality is actually missing in the game.

The reason they are dumbed down is because its not possible to do everything you can do with keyboard and mouse on a console.
A simple and fatal thing like aiming is sluggish and hard in console games, so they dumbed it down, auto aim and wide hit-boxes are in all FPS console games, It's a totally new experience playing the same game on a computer.

And if you find out your game has a fatal bug on you console, your screwed.
On you computer, you just download a patch.

Thief is not a game for consoles, if they make it for consoles it have to be dumbed down so much. Stuff like jumping from one edge to another will be totally automatic with a press of a button, like in all other console games cus you don't have the control to do the jump with gamepad, and aiming will be more automatic because you cant do it with a gamepad else, all maps will be less complex because a player with a gamepad should be able to navigate them. and so on...
Thief is really not a game for consoles, please don't dumb it down for consoles.

GmanPro
12th May 2009, 20:38
In short, 2000-2009 has been the best years of game development to-date.

Worst sentence I've ever read in my life

GmanPro
12th May 2009, 20:44
The best thing to do is develop the game entirely for PC. And then, as an afterthought, get a team to do a quick and dirty conversion to console. The PC players will be pleased, and the console 'tards wont notice any difference.

Stoic
12th May 2009, 23:47
And if you find out your game has a fatal bug on you console, your screwed.
On you computer, you just download a patch.

Thief is not a game for consoles, if they make it for consoles it have to be dumbed down so much. Stuff like jumping from one edge to another will be totally automatic with a press of a button, like in all other console games cus you don't have the control to do the jump with gamepad, and aiming will be more automatic because you cant do it with a gamepad

Okay, games on the Xbox360 and the Playstation 3 get patched via the internet just like a computer game. Next argument please.

Jumping can't be done with a gamepad? Are you insane? Last time I checked, we could jump great using a pad. Huh, if I recall, the spacebar is a button that can be used to jump, how is it any different than the "A" button? Also, a terrible argument from someone who has not played on a console in years. Next argument.

Oh, and your thing about turning off AA and AF is silly. That is an argument against your rig. You just admitted that many people's PC's suck and are incapable of playing the game the way it is meant to be played. The Xbox360 makes sure all of us can play the way it is meant to be played.

Please, next argument.

maddermadcat
13th May 2009, 00:55
I am sitting in front of my Xbox360 selection and looking at Bioshock
No

Halo 3
Oh lord no

The Orange Box
I'm probably picky but I didn't care for HL2. Portal felt too much like a mod to me. TF2 is pretty damn cool though.

Gears of War, Gears of War 2, Grand Theft Auto 4
These are fun if your mind is stuck in the sixth grade.

Here's my reasoning when it comes to consolitis: a more distant screen combined with imprecise controllers means fun stuff like chunky menus and overly simplified UI, auto-aiming, et cetera -- most developers don't bother changing the game for the PC really, so we just get a game that's not necessarily worse but just inappropriate on the PC.

That said, the target demographic when it comes to consoles as well as the much more limiting interface methods make console gaming "simpler," I guess.

In before I've never played consoles, I own most of the games you listed for the 360 and didn't care for many of them. :hmm:

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 01:01
Orange Box was a PC game anyway. Ported to console as an afterthought. Gabe Newell was not pleased about working with the consoles either. And all of those other games are really quite mediocre also. Take away the shiny graphics and what is left? Nothing.

Bloodwolf806
13th May 2009, 01:06
The Eidos forums are full of rabid pc fanboys who like to argue over nothing...Jumping? Really? PC fanboys are resorting to JUMPING?

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 01:10
Don't try to deny that games have become increasingly simplified in recent years. Coinciding with the rise of the console. Everything about a console is static and limited. Your ability to jump is actually restricted when using a gamepad as opposed to a mouse and keyboard sir. The game designers make their games with all of these limitations in mind and it affects the PC version in the end. That is why we are pissed. Remember the Crouch jump in Half Life? That game had you enable sprint mode and do a crouch jump to land just on a precariously perched ledge all the time. You don't see that kind of intricacy in the simple things, like jumping for example, anymore.

maddermadcat
13th May 2009, 01:12
I still manage to have fun with my 360. I wouldn't say one is superior to the other, they just carry different requirements that become problematic in direct ports.

Stoic, I saw you mentioned that PC games have been pretty lame lately -- I blame consoles getting more attention from developers than PCs, personally.

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 01:15
I think all games have been getting progressively more lame over the years, so....

maddermadcat
13th May 2009, 01:19
I think all games have been getting progressively more lame over the years, so....

Console games never exhibited a great deal of depth in some ways, if that's what you're saying.

If not, then in any medium, most of the work produced within it has been crap. It's just the crap is rarely remembered as well as the few good pieces are -- unless it's so spectacularly crappy it manages to be entertaining. That's mostly just movies, though.

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
13th May 2009, 11:31
We don't care what EM does with the console versions of T4, they may decide to fill them with quick time events, 3rd person fancy animations, checkpoint save system, a huge and shiny UI which fills 75% of the screen, co-op mode, colorful balloons and cute ponies, but all these console-specific feces should remain on them and stay away from our PC's.


THIS. Design Thief 4 solely for PC, dumb it down/remove features/add ridiculous features for consoles later. I don't care, as long as PC gets the proper version.

Stoic
13th May 2009, 12:52
Don't try to deny that games have become increasingly simplified in recent years. Coinciding with the rise of the console. Everything about a console is static and limited. Your ability to jump is actually restricted when using a gamepad as opposed to a mouse and keyboard sir. The game designers make their games with all of these limitations in mind and it affects the PC version in the end. That is why we are pissed. Remember the Crouch jump in Half Life? That game had you enable sprint mode and do a crouch jump to land just on a precariously perched ledge all the time. You don't see that kind of intricacy in the simple things, like jumping for example, anymore.

Hate to burst your bubble, but the sprint-jump-crouch is still in Half-Life 2 and its successors on the Xbox360. You need only sprint, press A to jump, and then click the D stick down to duck at the same time. It is a required movement similar to you having to press the spacebar and shift at the same time. Next argument please.

DF-HellFier
13th May 2009, 18:22
Please don't ruin the game, by making it Multy platformed... Develop it for PC & after that make the nescesery changes for any platform that you want! - But the first version must be for PC! PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE!!!

The Deuce
13th May 2009, 20:36
Actually having played Thief 1&2 on PC, and Thief 3 on a console, I can tell you that, hands down, console controls are *better* for Thief than a keyboard and mouse. Yes, that's right, I said *BETTER*.

It all comes down to one thing: speed control. The analog sticks on consoles allow you a far greater degree of precision over Garrett's movement speed than does the keyboard, and without the hand cramps involved with trying to hold down shift and ctrl to modify your walking speed.

It was, for me, one of the few redeeming features of Thief 3. In fact, I liked it so much, that I went out and bought a Logitech PS2-ripoff gamepad for my PC, mapped the mouse to the right analog stick, and replayed Thief 1&II with it. And guess what? Once again, it was *better*. And no, pressing a button on a gamepad instead of the space bar didn't magically make me unable to jump properly.

As for the argument that the right analog stick doesn't give you the speed and precision that the mouse does, well WHOOP-DEE-FREAKING-DOO! So what? This is Thief, not a frantic FPS gorefest. You don't need that lightning-quick speed and accuracy to "frag" some dude in the head with a railgun in the split second before he runs for cover. It's not that kind of game. Gamepad mouselook is fine for the purposes of Thief. There's no reason that accommodating it should make the developers dumb things down.

Once again, I have played all three Thief games with a gamepad, and it is B-E-T-T-E-R. Got it?

There is a genuine risk of Thi4f suffering from consolitis, but the risk doesn't arise from the gamepad. The risk is simply that the developers will feel pressured to copy off of other console games, in a misguided attempt to woo more players. That is what we should be trying to prevent. Asking them not to do a console version is pointless, cause it's going to happen whether you like it or not.

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 20:37
^^ Your a funny man. You know that?

Botlas
13th May 2009, 21:41
I agree that consoles have caused a lot of games to become over-simplified. The Bethesda games are a good example. But I don't actually see why it's an issue with Thief. The problem of "consolitis" mainly arises when a complex game requiring a lot of buttons has to have the controls condensed to fit onto the gamepad. Thief doesn't actually have that many actions and buttons, so there really isn't much to dumb down.

The other half of the "consolitis" problem is with devs filling up games with flashy graphics and fluff to appeal to a wider audience. At the end of the day, that's really an art direction issue, not a console specific issue.

I'll probably play it on my PC. But I really don't think that consoles hurt this game, so if my PC blew up and I had to get it for the X360 or PS3 I'd be fine with it.

tender19
13th May 2009, 21:44
PC first. This is a hardcore game. Thieves need tools, peeking to the right and left (I missed in Bioshock), creeping and moving, it's an art. Keyboard, that is what we needsie and a mousie.

DF-HellFier
13th May 2009, 22:13
NO F***** Consoles! The game should be - DISIGNED FOR PC and after that if the developer's want make a console version - The PC version can be semplyfied & fit to the console after the pc version will be complete... But PC game should be the base for all and not console version! Its not so hard to delete some "unnesesery" controls for console, but in PC version it should be a lot of more keys vith options! - Thief from the beginnig was a PC Game. Attemt to make one multi consolitist version was leading to awful game & great mistake that calld TDS - It was no more that Prince of persia merged with spiderman & Deus Ex... If the developers cant make NORMAL THIEF GAME - They should just leave Thief alone... And Im sorry for this post (Developers - dont take it to your hearts, it just something that almoust every one kept inside after the TDS was released...) If you want to make a perfect game - a perfect THIEF game, listen to voice of Thief fans & try to give your priority for this game to the PC platform... Dont simplifie it because another platforms, you could make the conversion to other platforms after you make normal pc version with full options & actions. In addition, try to remember, that 3d person view "brake up" all the "submergen" into thief's gameplay, atmosphere & his world...
I've been played many game including dosent's of time in all thief's & a lot of FM's. Belive me, I know what Im saying! (Sorry for my english...)

The Deuce
13th May 2009, 22:36
PC first. This is a hardcore game. Thieves need tools, peeking to the right and left (I missed in Bioshock), creeping and moving, it's an art. Keyboard, that is what we needsie and a mousie.

You can do all those things with a gamepad. In fact, "creeping and moving" works better with a gamepad than with a keyboard. See my post above.

Those of you complaining about gamepads are really barking up the wrong tree if you're hoping to avoid consolitis that way. Look, we can be damn near certain that this game is coming to consoles, whether we like it or not. And those consoles will have gamepads. That's not a problem in and of itself, because Thief can work just fine on a gamepad, and even on a console.

There's nothing in principle to keep Thief from playing flawlessly on a console. But, there is a risk that in practice the producers will push to make the game more like other console games, in the mistaken belief that this will attract more fans. Those of us who want to prevent consolitis would do well to avoid unproductive activities, like whining about how much you hate gamepads and screaming at those console kids to get off your lawn. Instead, concentrate on advising Eidos how to implement the game on consoles without corrupting the Thief experience.

DF-HellFier
13th May 2009, 22:46
The Duce, "Instead, concentrate on advising Eidos how to implement the game on consoles without corrupting the Thief experience. ' - That exactly what I've been adwisig:

If you want to make a perfect game - a perfect THIEF game, listen to voice of Thief fans & try to give your priority for this game to the PC platform... Dont simplifie it because another platforms, you could make the conversion to other platforms after you make normal pc version with full options & actions. In addition, try to remember, that 3d person view "brake up" all the "submergen" into thief's gameplay, atmosphere & his world...

"You can do all those things with a gamepad. In fact, "creeping and moving" works better with a gamepad than with a keyboard. See my post above."

For you & may be another 12 or 50 players its better, but for THOUSANDS of other players - its not better. As a matter of fact More than thousand's Thief players HATE Game Pad's & consoles, I by my self dont hate the, I just saying, that Thief & console or Gamepad - Its not the best choice...


It's the basic's, but it's a start.... & all what I ask, it - MAKE THE PC VERSION FIRST WITH FULL ACTIONS EQUIPMENT & KEY CONTROLS FOR THE PC!

DF-HellFier
13th May 2009, 23:00
Even Deus Ex:IW was hurt by the console's "abbilities"

GmanPro
14th May 2009, 01:32
@ The Deuce

It might be easier for you.

The keyboard and mouse is the only way to enjoy video games properly. Did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason that TDS felt good on a gamepad is because the game was designed for a gamepad?

bobby27
14th May 2009, 01:50
hey there,
I made a post that included such comments- the needless "dumbing down" really is unfortunate. As we have seen, it is better to put out a good product and gather a cult following than it is to sell out and lose the fans (I'm thinking in particular the latest farcry which alienated tons of players). Do something worthwhile, get the high scores and the view as an adult, complex, game rather than a dumbed down, childish, short-term money grab. Thanks.

Leafblade
14th May 2009, 02:06
/signed
too many great games have been ruined by dumbing it down for consoles
port them over to consoles after.. but don't create a console game to be ported to pc

Mr McGee
14th May 2009, 02:18
Consoles? In MY Thi4f? It's more likely than you think.

randomtaffer
14th May 2009, 02:42
As for the argument that the right analog stick doesn't give you the speed and precision that the mouse does, well WHOOP-DEE-FREAKING-DOO! So what? This is Thief, not a frantic FPS gorefest. You don't need that lightning-quick speed and accuracy to "frag" some dude in the head with a railgun in the split second before he runs for cover. It's not that kind of game. Gamepad mouselook is fine for the purposes of Thief. There's no reason that accommodating it should make the developers dumb things down.


As you fully admit, the right analog stick does not give you the speed and precision that the mouse does.

What were we arguing about again?

Peter_Smith
14th May 2009, 03:59
There have been a lot of good opinions here about which method of control works best. I think it partly a matter of taste and what you are used to. However, a universal theme among PC'ers is that console controls are awkward. I'm a PC player. I've only played consoles a few times. Perhaps that makes me unqualified to state an opinion, but definitely I agree on that point. I find that accurate aiming with a thumb joystick, while simultaneously performing other tasks, is very difficult for me. That is why I have never purchased a console after the Atari 5200. Doom was the end of the console, as far as I am concerned. Anyway, separation of mouse and keyboard fixes the problem of precision aiming and doing other tasks in parallel.

Someone said that ASDW + mouse is preferred for PCs. Maybe, but I don't like the default key mappings at all. I use a much better (IMO) key mapping for Thief: SHIFT = speed toggle, CTRL = walk forward slowly (slows down any mode), / = toggle crouch (also affects speed). In addition, I use the Enter key for jump. These keys are all close together, so I can work them all plus the arrow keys with one hand that is nearly stationary. I only have to shift my hand when I want a Map, Objectives, etc., which means I am ready to pause the game in any case. So, my speed control is great. It has to be for ghosting. Then I can aim (very accurately), fire, frob, and select inventory with the mouse. The combination is fluid, effortless, and can't be beaten, IMO.

All that said, I think all the discussion about controls is missing the point. I wasn't involved in the programming decisions, but I have the strong impression that many of the decisions that we didn't like about T3 were brought about by limitations of consoles or the engine that was chosen because it worked on consoles. How about those load zones? No rope arrows? No swimming? And many more common complaints. I think these decisions were made by people who were willing to sacrifice the tradition of the game, as played on a PC, and that itself is the main problem, not the technical details. I'd like to see a return to basics: huge maps, same basic tools we have always had, more flexibility with color palettes and lighting, great sound propagation, and an engine that is not overburdened by performance-robbing trickery.

The Deuce
14th May 2009, 04:27
@ The Deuce

It might be easier for you.

The keyboard and mouse is the only way to enjoy video games properly. Did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason that TDS felt good on a gamepad is because the game was designed for a gamepad?

I'm talking as someone who has played both PC and console games extensively here.

Go back and read my post again. As I said before, after I played Thief 3, I bought a gamepad for my PC, and went back and replayed Thief 1&2 with it (I had previously played through both on Expert with mouse+keyboard). It really improved stealth in those games too.

I will readily agree with you that keyboard+mouse works better for many types of games, FPSes in particular. But Thief is an exception. Playing Thief 1&2 with a gamepad really didn't hamper the experience in the least. It's not a fast-twitch fragfest where you need instant, laser-precision mouse control. By far the most noticeable difference was that the analog stick gave me a far greater degree of control over my movement speed (and resulting sound level), without having to contort my fingers to press CTRL and SHIFT. Movement speed is a much bigger deal in Thief than fast precision mouse control.

I was able to map all of the major functions to buttons on the control pad: left/right/forward lean, jump, crouch, you name it. The only thing I needed to use the keyboard for was the number keys, so I could switch immediately to the weapon I wanted when necessary (I had already mapped the buttons to cycle the weapons to the triggers on the pad, but it was often more convenient to go to my weapon directly). However, on the console version of Thi4f, this functionality could easily be added via an inventory wheel, similar to what Bioshock uses, and PC players could forego it altogether.

Now, if I can map all the Thief controls to a gamepad, and play Thief 1&2 on it with no problem, what does that tell you? It tells you that a console version of Thief could in-principle be made without dumbing it down for the gamepad.

The problem with Thief 3 was not that they dumbed it down to work with the gamepad. It was all the unnecessary stuff they did to the game to try and make it more arcadey: 3rd person view, allowing you to kill on expert, loot that lights up like a Christmas tree, etc. None of those things were necessary to make the game work on the console. Ion Storm just did them because they (mistakenly) thought console players would like it more, and that it would expand their player base. Those are the kinds of mistakes we need to prevent Eidos from making.

randomtaffer
14th May 2009, 05:15
It's not a fast-twitch fragfest where you need instant, laser-precision mouse control.

You also don't need sunglasses on a bright sunny day, but it eases your discomfort.

Just because you don't need something, doesn't mean that the absence of the thing you don't need will make for a better gaming experience.
If I cut the sensitivity of my mouse in half, I could probably still play Thief just fine. Now suddenly is it better for me to continue playing with my sensitivity cut in half? Of course not.

I do agree with you about the real problems of T3 though.

Terr
14th May 2009, 06:40
As you fully admit, the right analog stick does not give you the speed and precision that the mouse does.

I like how some of the Splinter Cell games handled it: Mouse wheel controls creep/walk/run speed along a fairly smooth spectrum.

GmanPro
14th May 2009, 07:42
I'm talking as someone who has played both PC and console games extensively here.

Go back and read my post again. As I said before, after I played Thief 3, I bought a gamepad for my PC, and went back and replayed Thief 1&2 with it (I had previously played through both on Expert with mouse+keyboard). It really improved stealth in those games too.

I will readily agree with you that keyboard+mouse works better for many types of games, FPSes in particular. But Thief is an exception. Playing Thief 1&2 with a gamepad really didn't hamper the experience in the least. It's not a fast-twitch fragfest where you need instant, laser-precision mouse control. By far the most noticeable difference was that the analog stick gave me a far greater degree of control over my movement speed (and resulting sound level), without having to contort my fingers to press CTRL and SHIFT. Movement speed is a much bigger deal in Thief than fast precision mouse control.

I was able to map all of the major functions to buttons on the control pad: left/right/forward lean, jump, crouch, you name it. The only thing I needed to use the keyboard for was the number keys, so I could switch immediately to the weapon I wanted when necessary (I had already mapped the buttons to cycle the weapons to the triggers on the pad, but it was often more convenient to go to my weapon directly). However, on the console version of Thi4f, this functionality could easily be added via an inventory wheel, similar to what Bioshock uses, and PC players could forego it altogether.

Now, if I can map all the Thief controls to a gamepad, and play Thief 1&2 on it with no problem, what does that tell you? It tells you that a console version of Thief could in-principle be made without dumbing it down for the gamepad.

The problem with Thief 3 was not that they dumbed it down to work with the gamepad. It was all the unnecessary stuff they did to the game to try and make it more arcadey: 3rd person view, allowing you to kill on expert, loot that lights up like a Christmas tree, etc. None of those things were necessary to make the game work on the console. Ion Storm just did them because they (mistakenly) thought console players would like it more, and that it would expand their player base. Those are the kinds of mistakes we need to prevent Eidos from making.

Look dude. If you enjoy playing your games on a little gamepad, then by all means go ahead. If that is your preference then fine, but don't expect to woo me over to your side. I hate gamepads/consoles and everything they stand for.

Jables_Kage
14th May 2009, 07:45
The best thing to do is develop the game entirely for PC. And then, as an afterthought, get a team to do a quick and dirty conversion to console. The PC players will be pleased, and the console 'tards wont notice any difference.

lmao too true

Contradictio In Terminis
14th May 2009, 10:54
"Arrow trails, bright shiney arrow trails that were left behind, the sort of thing you expect coming out the back of a sword in a manga movie, great for futuristic japanese cartoons, bad for steampunk medievil."

"Bright blue obnoxious opaque highlighting on everything, instead of the subtle transparent light grey, this was so "in your face" it's untrue."

"Loading parts in level, the PC version had them and didn't need them, neither the originals had loading zones and Thief 2 in particular had some city sized maps, the restrictions of the consoles were brought to the PC once again. They could have at least made them a door or something like that, but they put these stupid looking blue swirly clouds all over the place, again just "in your face" obnoxious."

"Glinting loot, apparantly console players can't find loot on their own like you had to in the originals, it has to have a massive glint on it to show you what was valuable and made it easier to find in the dark."

all of those are based on aesthetics and thusly vary from people to people. the arrow trails were put in there to help you aim in case you miss the first time around and as far as it taking away from the "steampunk" feel of the game, I disagree. It actually added to the mysticism, IMO. And the blue highlighting, again, a matter of aesthetics. And the level loading with the blue smoke, I don't see how that could possibly take away from the game play. It's supposed to add to the sense of "you don't know what's coming" and I feel it does just that. BTW, you like that term "in your face" don't you? And as far as the glinting loot goes, that has nothing to do with console...so that point is rather moot. In fact, all of those points have nothing to do with consoles.

"3rd person view."

Don't like it, don't use it...simple.

"Removal of rope arrows, and subsequently the sort of puzzles that required them...thats a major facepalm right there."

This bothered me at first, but seeing as how the story line did not call for them I don't see this is an issue.

"Easy lock picking..."

If it takes away from the game play for you, THEN DON'T USE IT! Simple...it's a personal choice...if you feel that clicking while on the sweetspot and making it quick takes away from the tension of the game, don't use it. That seems like common sense to me.

"Movement was god awful, it was clearly built a 3rd person game and 1st person view was an afterthought it seems, it was awkward as your body rotated in strange ways making movement in 1st person extremely irritating."

LMFAO! WTF are you talking about? Are you sure we are playing the same game? The movement in Deadly Shadows was Godlike, not god awful...or did you fail to realize how seamlessly they merged your moments in the game to that of the music and your environment? Did you ever notice how the enemies and guards sync up with how you move to add to the creepy atmosphere of the game? Seriously, the engine for this was through the roof...the point of a game is to completely immerse yourself in it...if the movement in the game seemed off then that means the way that you were playing was off, because I have played this game like four times before (on the fifth right now) and I have never had this "problem."

"The back to the wall feature cheapened the game, it made you practically impossible to spot in even mildly dark areas, it was a sort of failsafe that always worked, no need to plan ahead and monitor guard routes, and time everything well, just pop out of the shadows and if a guard comes hug the wall and safe as houses, just lame."

I never used it...and it seems pretty idiotic to me that you would use something that you feel cheapens the game...it's not like you are forced to do it (save for in the training mission at the beginning). Thusly this point, like the others, is rather moot.

Granted, I sort of agree with you, the points you bring up don't really do a good job in making your point.

The Deuce
14th May 2009, 14:39
Okay, having said all that, I'm going to say what I think needs to be done to prevent consolitis.

In my opinion, nearly all of the things we love to hate about Thief 3 come from a single source: the 3rd person view. It's obvious what happened here. The developers thought "Gee, all these other stealth games [Splinter Cell, MGS, Tenchu, etc, etc] use 3rd person view. That's the popular thing! We need to do it so other players will like the game!"

This was a big mistake, and it carried through to other parts of the game.

For instance, the loss of rope arrows. I'll wager that this happened because rope arrows are thin, and it's harder to line up your jumps, and your shots, in a 3rd person game.

Or the glinting loot (the single most unforgivable aspect of Thief 3, imo). In Thief 1&2, you had walk around the level, and look up close into every nook and cranny, in order to get all the treasure, which was often devilishly well-hidden. However, in Thief 3, because of the 3rd person view, you didn't have a close-up view of things in front of your face. The developers no doubt reasoned that this required making the loot easier to see.

The trick, then, is to design this game for the 1st person. Thief 1&2 were not like other PC games, and there's no reason Thi4f has to be like other console games. Thief has a special niche. Exploit that niche for all it's worth, don't compromise it to be like everybody else. And besides, games like Oblivion prove that it's possible to make a game work will in 1st person on consoles.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
14th May 2009, 16:12
I can't possibly express how happy I am to see that this forum is full of the original fans who want Thief 4 to not suck. This is especially uplifting after having seen that god awful thing they call "a logo to be proud of." I'd imagine that with so much input on people who want Thief to be good they can't help but make what the fans want. Then again I try not to get my hopes up for ANYTHING.

Now, here are some hilariously ironic tidbits that I had the displeasure to read here...


Oh please...If this was Xbox or PS2 Id understand, but this is 360 and PS3. Look at Mass Effect, Fallout 3 or Final Fantasy XII. You no longer need to sacrafice quality for accessability.

So few great games? What are you talking about? I am sitting in front of my Xbox360 selection and looking at Bioshock, Halo 3, The Orange Box, Gears of War, Gears of War 2, Dead Space, The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, Assassins Creed, Far Cry 2, Grand Theft Auto 4, Call of Duty 4, etc. etc.

Crysis aside, I have seen very few games on the PC that offer the thrill-ride that most of these console games on these two systems have given in the past few years.

That stuff was painful to read. This is the kind of thing that makes us cringe when we hear that they want to reach a new audience and release a once great franchise on a console. I don't know what bothers me more, the fact that good games keep getting ruined or that people like this can't even tell the difference.

Rather than go through each of those games individually I will just sum them up in one word, MEDIOCRE. And for someone to go on to say that, basically, CRYSIS was the only pc game that person felt was good is just astounding as in my circles Crysis was hailed as mediocre garbage! OH PLEASE don't mention stuff like that anymore, developers might actually think people want more of what those games are.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, don't let Thief 4 become THIAF! You can start by doing 6 things! ...

1. Make the player GARRETT
2. Don't change the theme of the game
3. Make it first person ONLY with smooth and graceful controls.
4. Don't make a humongous User Interface. Make a pleasant, functional, minimalistic one that keeps with the theme of the game.
5. Change that logo!
6. No glinting loot!
and while I'm at it, I'd like to take this opportunity to say please, please, please put a lot of work into the AI. The 2 most important technical aspects of this game should be AI and Sound. It's 2009 and there's hardly any AI to be proud of in the gaming world. And lord knows AI is hugely important in the Thief games.

There's more, but I feel like I'm just repeating other people. My main points are those though. I'll admit, some of you guys seem more zealous about the platform than the game. I suppose that's just your way of driving the point across. It's not so much that consoles themselves dumb down the game, but that the developers feel compelled to dumb it down for the console players. We know damn well they want that sweet console money. They need to know we, console and pc gamer alike, want a serious THIEF game. No outrageous new age casual gamer crap. We just want another 'Thief' game to enjoy.

Assuming that they do make a good Thief game, I just hope this thread lets them know that pc gamers are going to hate it if it feels like a bad port of a console game. I've been burned by terrible console-to-pc port performance, floaty console aim, uncustomizable console controls, and terrible console interfaces for too long. Keep development separate!

PS. NO THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE BULL*****

Necros
14th May 2009, 16:25
So few great games? What are you talking about? I am sitting in front of my Xbox360 selection and looking at Bioshock, Halo 3, The Orange Box, Gears of War, Gears of War 2, Dead Space, The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, Assassins Creed, Far Cry 2, Grand Theft Auto 4, Call of Duty 4, etc. etc.
:mad2: The only one you should mention is The Orange Box, and even that's not among the best games or game packs, whatever. BS, Halo3, GoW 1-2, DS, Oblivion, AC, FC2, GTA4 and CoD4 are all great examples of overhyped games. Simple gameplay, shiny graphics - they please the masses. There was nothing revolutionary about them, nothing at all. They were just bigger and had a few cool things in them to make the console gamers go crazy about them.

All of those games above have extremely well thought-out gameplay. They revolutionized something with their presence. Consoles were not their limiting factor, the imaginations of the developers were limited, luckily they were limited to great ideas.
See above, and one more thing: consoles are the limiting factor, or to be more precise, the publishers who think console gamers only care about simple, quickly accesible games.

Stop blaming consoles for games where the developers lacked imagination. In fact, I went through Gamespot's PC reviews just now and noticed that you "oh so advanced" PC people squeeze out highly unpolished and unfinished games/turds all the time-- granted the biggest offenders are real time strategy games, but there are a fair number of action games on there.
And why do you think that is? Publishers are the bad guys here, again. Many of those unpolished, unfinished games are lame console ports.

There were more great games this decade than there were 80's and 90's combined. I am sure that you have a silly idea of how great games were in the 80's and 90's due to some strange nostalgia for your childhood computer days (I know I have that nostalgia, but I also have reason), but don't actually think those games were better or more groundbreaking. Yeah, Half-Life, Doom, Duke Nukem, and a few other titles broke the mold in the 1990's, but that is really about it. I am sure you will flame that with some game I left off, like Diablo, but none the less, your idea of what is a great game and what the rest of us consider a great game is definitely off. If you played Gears of War 2 or the most recent Killzone or one of the other MANY great games that has come out this decade, I think you would sing a different tune.
Not true. There are some good games, and I enjoy them too but the majority of them lack the quality and creativity of the games from let's say 10 years ago.

Crysis aside, I have seen very few games on the PC that offer the thrill-ride that most of these console games on these two systems have given in the past few years.
Here's the problem. Who the ***** cares about thrill-rides? Okay, sometimes I do too but they are the majority and that's bad. Simple games with simple gameplay. We want more than that!

Face it, the PC is a wonderful piece of hardware that is expensive to upkeep, has loads of flaws Devs have to get around, such as mixing a PCI-Express SLI Nvidia with PCI-Express SLI ATI cards in the same system and 8GB of ram and blah blah blah.
Wrong again, PC gaming is not more expensive than console gaming, if you have a clue about it. And consoles have their problems too. I have seen many complaints from top developers.

In short, 2000-2009 has been the best years of game development to-date.
Well, you are partially right. Deus Ex came out in 2000, a few other good games in the next few years, but to call these the best years is just dumb.

Actually having played Thief 1&2 on PC, and Thief 3 on a console, I can tell you that, hands down, console controls are *better* for Thief than a keyboard and mouse. Yes, that's right, I said *BETTER*.

It all comes down to one thing: speed control. The analog sticks on consoles allow you a far greater degree of precision over Garrett's movement speed than does the keyboard, and without the hand cramps involved with trying to hold down shift and ctrl to modify your walking speed.
That can be easily fixed using the mouse wheel, like in Splinter Cell. ;) So, the only advantage of the consoles is gone. :)

In my opinion, nearly all of the things we love to hate about Thief 3 come from a single source: the 3rd person view. It's obvious what happened here. The developers thought "Gee, all these other stealth games [Splinter Cell, MGS, Tenchu, etc, etc] use 3rd person view. That's the popular thing! We need to do it so other players will like the game!"

This was a big mistake, and it carried through to other parts of the game.

For instance, the loss of rope arrows. I'll wager that this happened because rope arrows are thin, and it's harder to line up your jumps, and your shots, in a 3rd person game.
Nope, you are wrong about that, third person wasn't implemented because of that. And the engine's limitations and the lack of time were the reasons why the rope arrows were cut.

And why do you think the loot glint was done that way? To please the PC fans? No, it was because of the console version. They could've changed it for the PC though, too bad they didn't...

That stuff was painful to read. This is the kind of thing that makes us cringe when we hear that they want to reach a new audience and release a once great franchise on a console. I don't know what bothers me more, the fact that good games keep getting ruined or that people like this can't even tell the difference.

Rather than go through each of those games individually I will just sum them up in one word, MEDIOCRE. And for someone to go on to say that, basically, CRYSIS was the only pc game that person felt was good is just astounding as in my circles Crysis was hailed as mediocre garbage! OH PLEASE don't mention stuff like that anymore, developers might actually think people want more of what those games are.
QFT :thumb: Crysis was just a big techdemo...


I'm with those who are saying that Thief 4 and Deus Ex 3 must be made for the PC first, then ported over to the consoles with the necessary modifications/simplifications.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
14th May 2009, 16:46
Worst case scenario,

Thiaf is going to be a third person action game about a sexy girl who steals from the evil corporation in 2052. And with all the amenities of a typical big budget console game. Ported to the pc with the idea that hardware years away will play the game.

Henke123
14th May 2009, 17:04
For the love of God(or whatever) DO NOT USE GAMES FOR WINDOWS LIVE!

I really hope Eidos will keep Thi4f very very far away from that crap. I really don't want it o be infected with this disgusting software.

And if it is absolutely necessary for them to use it, don't make it a requirement like in GTA IV.

Prince_VLAD
14th May 2009, 17:21
I personally don't like consoles (the fact is that I hate them ! I hate their guts! ...lol... It was a clean great world without them when only the PC ruled - for me the PC rules even today! lol) and sacrificing something good for PC only because some people can't handle games on PCs, it's dumb and a bad call.(I know, for marketing and companies pockets it's not a bad call...lol)
I agree with some of you that quality must not be sacrified for "multiplatforming" requests but I'm afraid that won't stand.The big bucks are not coming from this direction, unfortunately for us.

These are the ones I disagree with some of you:

- I liked the rope arrow; you could reach high grounds etc

- I think that was appropriate ,I liked it (Bright blue obnoxious opaque highlighting on everything)

- 3rd person view it's good in a game like this even if it's a stealth FPS and even if I like very much FPSs.(switching between them can suit every gamer in my opinion and , as a bonus , it gives you another perspective view, sometimes precious in your mission)

- I like glinting loot especially because it is very dark almost all the time in this game.

- I am satisfied with the old pick-locking model


These are the ones I agree with some of you:

- loading parts of level is creating a missing feel of wide open kindda thing.

- I'd like to see some simple RPG elements (remember No one lives forever 2 ? )

Deadloss
15th May 2009, 13:35
Ok here is the big problem;

What seems to be happening these days is that companies developing games are developing them for the console and then "Smack" them onto PC, or worse still make a PC game like it should be for a console.

If you’re an extreme gamer and played some recent titles, I am sure that you have noticed when the game starts it says "Press Start to begin" or "Press the blue button". (and then you say "AM PLAYING ON A FLIPPEN PC!!!!").

Is this going to be the case with Thief 4? Or are we all going to be surprised and see an actual 'Epic' game produced for both the PC and / or Console.

I have no problems with the console side, but when it comes down to Thief 4 I am looking for a game where I am able to enjoy over time, not some Console rubbish able to be completed over the weekend with some Beer and Pizza on the couch.

Thief 1 was amazing and Thief 2 took it further..... Thief 4???? Well who knows?!

All I do know is that EIDOS is taking on such a big risk and is also holding all the weight of every Thief Fan!

Let me know what you think........

Regards,

Deadloss IoM

Jayy
15th May 2009, 14:21
I agree with the complaint but, being a (get your crucifix out) console game player, I can't agree with the remedy most pc fanatics propose (of killing off the console version). Glinting loot and too easy to pick locks were pretty questionable choices, I would agree, but I like the slouching lazily in a chair in front of a big t.v and twiddling my thumbs a bit. I think the problem is with the all too common developers' assumption that console game players prefer a dumbed down game.:mad2::mad2::mad2:

Jayy
15th May 2009, 14:26
The big problem has here been stated (as I just did in another post). The developers make the mistaken assumption that console players want a dumber game. We don't.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
15th May 2009, 14:30
There have been a lot of good opinions here about which method of control works best. I think it partly a matter of taste and what you are used to. However, a universal theme among PC'ers is that console controls are awkward. I'm a PC player. I've only played consoles a few times. Perhaps that makes me unqualified to state an opinion, but definitely I agree on that point. I find that accurate aiming with a thumb joystick, while simultaneously performing other tasks, is very difficult for me. That is why I have never purchased a console after the Atari 5200. Doom was the end of the console, as far as I am concerned. Anyway, separation of mouse and keyboard fixes the problem of precision aiming and doing other tasks in parallel.

Someone said that ASDW + mouse is preferred for PCs. Maybe, but I don't like the default key mappings at all. I use a much better (IMO) key mapping for Thief: SHIFT = speed toggle, CTRL = walk forward slowly (slows down any mode), / = toggle crouch (also affects speed). In addition, I use the Enter key for jump. These keys are all close together, so I can work them all plus the arrow keys with one hand that is nearly stationary. I only have to shift my hand when I want a Map, Objectives, etc., which means I am ready to pause the game in any case. So, my speed control is great. It has to be for ghosting. Then I can aim (very accurately), fire, frob, and select inventory with the mouse. The combination is fluid, effortless, and can't be beaten, IMO.

All that said, I think all the discussion about controls is missing the point. I wasn't involved in the programming decisions, but I have the strong impression that many of the decisions that we didn't like about T3 were brought about by limitations of consoles or the engine that was chosen because it worked on consoles. How about those load zones? No rope arrows? No swimming? And many more common complaints. I think these decisions were made by people who were willing to sacrifice the tradition of the game, as played on a PC, and that itself is the main problem, not the technical details. I'd like to see a return to basics: huge maps, same basic tools we have always had, more flexibility with color palettes and lighting, great sound propagation, and an engine that is not overburdened by performance-robbing trickery.

QFT. :thumb:
Emphasis, mine.

HellionKal
15th May 2009, 14:31
I guess their approach on Deus Ex 3 will be a fine indicator as to the potential level of consolitis infection on Thief 4.

And I am extremely happy to see that the "x% loot" system as shown in DS annoyed people as much as me.

I mean, compare this:

"In addition to garnering the Horn of Quintus, find and steal the fabled gemstone, 'The Mystic's Soul"
"The Mystic's Soul had a sister stone, called 'The Mystic's Heart,' also thought to be in the Bonehoard. Find it. Make it yours."

to this:

"Find 50% special loot"

It was an absolute joy to read through the briefings and objectives of 1 and 2, and that lack of creative writing severely hampered that.

Crashlander
15th May 2009, 16:41
This kind of argument is childish, pathetic and highly elitist.
Thief 3 was created by an entirely different design team to Thief 1+2, and was designed for a console 5 years older than the PC it was trying to run with.
Thief 4 will not be a pixel-for-pixel remake of Thief 1. If thats what you want, you will be disappointed. the fact its made to also run on a 360/PS3/microwave oven makes no difference.
It's plain, reading this thread, that some people are predjudiced beyond rational thought and hate consoles simply because they are consoles, but they will gain nothing by trying to shout the loudest in a pointless shoving contest.
Face it people, the console today is a far different beast to what it was 5 years ago and it is capable of so much more. PC technology advancement has slowed down to the point where even a 4 year old console can still play a very similar game.

As for control options,the PC version will (and always has had AFAIK) configurable controls, so blaming the control method of something else that bears no semblance to what you're using is a tenuous argument at best.

If this game turns out not to be everyone's favourite, then it will be because of the impossible standards of the person judging it, and whatever it is they don't like about the game (oh I don't know.... perhaps the shadows won't be "dark" enough or the guards are wearing their swords on their LEFT side instead of their RIGHT GODDAMIT!) it will be blamed on consoles regardless.

I'm fairly sure I'm wasting my time posting this. Lets face it, 5 years from now with the development of Thief 5, and the Xbox 720 and PS4 (or whatever) we will be back here again. If the graphics on consoles gets better than a PC, if the controls get smoother, if the games become more complex, Pc owners will just find other reasons to argue.
It's not about the game - its about whos is bigger.
Some people need to grow up.

Helegad
20th May 2009, 09:23
If this game comes to PC, which I'm 99% sure it will, can we PLEASE have a decent port? Deus Ex Invisible War and Thief Deadly Shadows PC ports stunk like turds in the sun (the sync+load really got to me eventually), and with the recent ****-up of the GTAIV PC fiasco, I really don't have much hope for PC ports any more.

Let's just hope Thief 4 and Max Payne 3 are decent PC games.

Espion
20th May 2009, 09:41
I'd really hope the game comes to PC and then get's ported to 360, thanks.

I imagine it would be easier to make a game for the higher end platform and then cut down.

When we did multiplatform titles we always did it the other way round and the games sucked even more for doing it.There was never time to do more than one set of art assets so all games used the low quality ones. If you start with high quality assets, it's easier to reduce them to lower quality for slower platforms.

GmanPro
20th May 2009, 09:42
Chances are (this could just be rhetoric on EM's part) that Thief 4 will be developed for PC first and then ported to consoles afterwords because this is what they said they will do with Deus Ex 3.

Myth
20th May 2009, 15:25
PC first, crappy consoles later. Thank you.

Espion
20th May 2009, 16:43
I don't want a decent PC port, because I don't want a PC port. TYVM.

Wait, do you mean you want it on PC only or consoles only?

Gan Xodos
21st May 2009, 15:11
we want it to be a pc game that can be ported to consoles later

Platinumoxicity
21st May 2009, 15:46
We want it for PC and even if it gets 38 different keyboard keys like in T1, that's how it will be. Not a single key function should be taken out because xböx only has 3 buttons for run, gun and shoot. We want single-screen individual animated menus back. We want "lean forward" back. We want all items, including keys and mission items in the inventory back. We want to be able to press "F" if we want to block a sword-slash with a blackjack once again. We want to disarm explosive mines with a lockpick again, and we want to get lost in the vastness of the Lost City and the confusion of The Sword.

The Deuce
21st May 2009, 16:40
We want it for PC and even if it gets 38 different keyboard keys like in T1, that's how it will be. Not a single key function should be taken out because xböx only has 3 buttons for run, gun and shoot. We want single-screen individual animated menus back. We want "lean forward" back.

Actually, I think lean forward was removed because it was cheapass (ever knocked out an entire party of guards that was actively searching for you?), not because the Xbox controller couldn't accomodate it. Of course, then they had to go and add wall-hugging, which turned out to be orders of magnitude more cheapass.

Platinumoxicity
21st May 2009, 16:57
Actually, I think lean forward was removed because it was cheapass (ever knocked out an entire party of guards that was actively searching for you?), not because the Xbox controller couldn't accomodate it. Of course, then they had to go and add wall-hugging, which turned out to be orders of magnitude more cheapass.

"Lean forward" is to me, just for goofing around. I just mentioned it for the lulz. :D I really don't think there was any keyboard function in T1 or T2 that deserved to be removed in TDS.

GmanPro
21st May 2009, 18:21
Leaning forward saved Frodo and Aragorn in Fellowship, when that ancient stairwell started collapsing!

Jilly The Taffer
21st May 2009, 18:25
This thread seriously should be stickied!

A reminder to Eidos Montreal about what NOT to do.

If this game is released and I see it in stores on Xbox and PS3.....I will cry.

MasterTaffer
21st May 2009, 18:32
This thread seriously should be stickied!

A reminder to Eidos Montreal about what NOT to do.

If this game is released and I see it in stores on Xbox and PS3.....I will cry.

So, the fact that someone can enjoy it on consoles makes you cry how?

Smartest bet is the game will see release on PC, Xbox 360 and PS3.

GmanPro
21st May 2009, 18:40
It needs to come out on PC first. Then five months later it can come out on consoles.

MasterTaffer
21st May 2009, 19:05
It needs to come out on PC first. Then five months later it can come out on consoles.

From a marketing stand point, bad move. Release for all three at once is your best bet.

Thief fans REALLY have to get over the console hatred. The simple fact that a gmae is on a console does NOT mean the game will suck. I am well aware of how jaded people are after Deadly Shadows, but that was the fault of poor design and development choices from Ion Storm. NOT because it was on a console. There are plenty of games on both consoles and PC that are brilliant and well designed. Letting one bad incident turn you into platform bigots is, quite frankly, petty.

TafferPants
21st May 2009, 19:15
So what if it's for consoles as well? It really all depends on how well it was designed, programmed, and ported over.

I don't really get why people are so anal about this. Because of T: DS?
Please.

ToMegaTherion
21st May 2009, 19:53
I agree with Platinumoxicity, except for the getting lost in huge levels thing, I don't want any more levels where nothing much happens apart from getting lost. I also add: we want an interface that doesn't have enormous text.

GmanPro
21st May 2009, 21:32
From a marketing stand point, bad move. Release for all three at once is your best bet.

Thief fans REALLY have to get over the console hatred. The simple fact that a gmae is on a console does NOT mean the game will suck. I am well aware of how jaded people are after Deadly Shadows, but that was the fault of poor design and development choices from Ion Storm. NOT because it was on a console. There are plenty of games on both consoles and PC that are brilliant and well designed. Letting one bad incident turn you into platform bigots is, quite frankly, petty.

Its not just one incident. This has been going on for eight+ years and it is oh so tiring.

And the team should be designing this game just for PC. When the game is finished, THEN they can begin converting it into console-mush. So I don't want the game held up for months while they do this conversion. The game should come out on PC first.

Nate
22nd May 2009, 03:49
Wasn't Oblivion and Fallout 3 first designed for PC?

From what I understand, both games were made for PC and only AFTERWARDS did they tweak it to run on the xbox....of course, I could be misinformed in this matter.

GmanPro
22nd May 2009, 04:12
And I think you are. The PC versions of both games were heavily infected with consolitis. It was painfully apparent.

MasterTaffer
22nd May 2009, 04:58
Consolitis- Noun. A derogatory term used by personal computer gamers against ported games so that they may participate in the asinine console war. Most of the perceived problems of consolitis are the fault of the developer and not consoles, however users of the term tend to be unable to look through their own delusions to see this fact. Recommend medication.

Console War- Noun. The gaming community's version of bigotry and racism. Stems from an irrational need to consider one superior to their fellow gamers due to inadequacy. Can be avoided by accepting the fact that all platforms are just there for fun, not blind zealotry.

*Note: Post not aimed at anyone or meant to be malevolent in intent.

GmanPro
22nd May 2009, 05:08
Most of the perceived problems of consolitis are the fault of the developer and not consoles

Its the fault of the developer, because they develop the game for consoles. Just put 2 and 2 together there...

Also, keep in mind that there are a number of limitations and restrictions involved with developing for consoles. Just listen to Gabe Newell talk about it. He explains it from the technical side of things

MasterTaffer
22nd May 2009, 05:28
Its the fault of the developer, because they develop the game for consoles. Just put 2 and 2 together there...

And how the flying hell is developing games for multiple platforms supposed to be a bad thing? So you want the technical superior game why? So you can hold it up and go, "mine's better than yours?" Just play the damn game and have fun, for Christ's sake. That's what games are about, having fun. Wanting a version of the product that is better than what other people can have smacks of elitism and selfishness.

Why don't you just list off the reasons consoles are so evil to you and I'll let you know how they are irrelevant, considering they are just different venues for entertainment and are not better or worse than PCs as an entertainment source. This stupid console war is a waste of energy, and PC gamers are just as idiotic about it as the other console fan boys. The sooner people shut their gobs about it and go back to HAVING FUN PLAYING GAMES, the better the whole video game industry will be for it

To anyone who thinks console gamers don't have a right to play Thief 4 at the same time as PC gamers or at all, thinks PC is a superior platform for games, thinks consoles are a superior platforms for games, or judges ANYONE for playing one or the other: Grow the hell up!

GmanPro
22nd May 2009, 05:50
Don't start talking about elitism and selfishness again. I could point out that your stance on all this smacks of elitism also ya know.

You are forgetting that consoles DO actually limit games potential. In a number of ways.

And you want to talk about fun? Well, overly simplified mechanics are not fun to me. I cannot, and will not settle for anything less than what has already been and can be achieved again.

MasterTaffer
22nd May 2009, 06:02
Don't start talking about elitism and selfishness again. I could point out that your stance on all this smacks of elitism also ya know.

Elitism means consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group. My entire post was about equality between gamers and how stupid it is to consider one type of gamer above another. The exact OPPOSITE of elitism. Find a dictionary before you start pointing fingers next time.


You are forgetting that consoles DO actually limit games potential. In a number of ways.

So because of the limitations in the console, you think the owners of them should be penalized by not letting them play Thief 4 or delayed release dates in comparison to the PC games. I'm to believe this sentiment isn't elitist in what way?


And you want to talk about fun? Well, overly simplified mechanics are not fun to me. I cannot, and will not settle for anything less than what has already been and can be achieved again.

Well, it's too bad for you developers look to make a product that a large audience enjoy, rather than just you. Perhaps if you let go of your selfishness and were willing to compromise and find something GOOD in these games, you might enjoy yourself far more. Or you could just not buy the game...

GmanPro
22nd May 2009, 06:11
Elitism means consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group. My entire post was about equality between gamers and how stupid it is to consider one type of gamer above another. The exact OPPOSITE of elitism. Find a dictionary before you start pointing fingers next time.

No. Geesh this is getting out of hand. You DO belong to a sect. You think you are better than me because you are "neutral." Elitism.


So because of the limitations in the console, you think the owners of them should be penalized by not letting them play Thief 4 or delayed release dates in comparison to the PC games. I'm to believe this sentiment isn't elitist in what way?

Mass Effect PC release was delayed by months. And the PC release was still full of crap that didn't need to be there. I'm just looking for some justice.


Well, it's too bad for you developers look to make a product that a large audience enjoy, rather than just you. Perhaps if you let go of your selfishness and were willing to compromise and find something GOOD in these games, you might enjoy yourself far more. Or you could just not buy the game...

And are the casuals not being selfish when they demand that every game be made exactly like everything else? What gives them the right to steal Fallout and turn it into a run and gun? That's selfishness if I ever saw it.

All I'm asking for is that my games be left alone. There's only a handful of games that I enjoy, just a tiny fraction of all the games that are made today. So everyone else can go and play their mindless games if they so choose. I'm not asking that all those games be converted into intelligent, complicated, and rich games (though it wouldn't do any harm). Calling me selfish is not the right word to use.

MasterTaffer
22nd May 2009, 06:45
No. Geesh this is getting out of hand. You DO belong to a sect. You think you are better than me because you are "neutral." Elitism.

So anyone who has a different view than you thinks they are superior? I argue that you're an elitist because you hold yourself above others because of your choice in games, considering other people's entertainment beneath you (And very likely consider yourself better than them). You demonstrate in your own post here:

So everyone else can go and play their mindless games if they so choose. I'm not asking that all those games be converted into intelligent, complicated, and rich games (though it wouldn't do any harm).
But you argue that I consider myself better than you because I think everyone shouldn't be judged by what they play video games on. That's stretching, dude.


Mass Effect PC release was delayed by months. And the PC release was still full of crap that didn't need to be there. I'm just looking for some justice.

This paragraph baffles me. What unholy sin did consoles do to Mass Effect that you feel console gamers must be punished as "Justice." Statement like these make it obvious you're playing in this retarded console war instead of thinking rationally. It paints the picture that you're viewing console gamers as opponents in some holy crusade rather than simply people who play games, just like you.


And are the casuals not being selfish when they demand that every game be made exactly like everything else? What gives them the right to steal Fallout and turn it into a run and gun? That's selfishness if I ever saw it.

So casual gamers were the ones who changed Fallout 3's design? Man, I must have missed the article on gamepolitics.com where casual gamers invaded Bethesda and held them at gunpoint until they made Fallout 3 the way it was released.

Someone should give those radical casual gamers a medal, then. Because of their actions, Fallout 3 was an amazing, award winning experience. Too bad for people who fear change, like yourself.


All I'm asking for is that my games be left alone.

"My games." That's a very telling and selfish set of words. They aren't your games, they are everyone's games. Game makers sell a product, and you buying that product doesn't give you unmitigated authority on how that franchise will be handled. You can't go up to a cookie maker and demand they leave raisins out of their recipe because they give you gas. Game making is a business, they are trying to make money by entertaining a wide audience.

And that also doesn't mean they are trying to make every game the same. If every game was the same, there wouldn't be an industry. Just one publisher shoveling out the same crap over and over. People want variety, which keeps games diverse. But they aren't going to make games for a handful of people and alienate a chunk of the population that would be interested if the product wasn't so anally focused on a single niche market. That isn't good business. Catering to just you isn't in the game plan, nor should it be.



There's only a handful of games that I enjoy, just a tiny fraction of all the games that are made today. So everyone else can go and play their mindless games if they so choose. I'm not asking that all those games be converted into intelligent, complicated, and rich games (though it wouldn't do any harm). Calling me selfish is not the right word to use.

No, Elitist fits better for this section of that paragraph. You make it abundantly clear that you think people who don't enjoy what you like are beneath you right here.

TafferPants
22nd May 2009, 07:35
A lot of casual gamers here. Thoes who whine about the new and praise the old.
I do admit though I have played games that DID perform better on certain platforms but that doesn't mean we need to break out into a war (it's getting old guys).

Deveoplers are interested in one thing...money.
Sad to say.

GmanPro
22nd May 2009, 07:43
So casual gamers were the ones who changed Fallout 3's design? Man, I must have missed the article on gamepolitics.com where casual gamers invaded Bethesda and held them at gunpoint until they made Fallout 3 the way it was released.

Someone should give those radical casual gamers a medal, then. Because of their actions, Fallout 3 was an amazing, award winning experience. Too bad for people who fear change, like yourself.

Ok, this is crossing the line. Fallout was a classic crpg that was turned into a crappy run and gun for consoles. How can you not see that this is wrong. The casuals are the ones being selfish when they demand that everything be made simpler and less complicated. I have no problem with them playing their own games, but then they rush in here and steal all of my games too. Its infuriating.

There is some serious miscommunication going on here. Stop trying to make me feel bad by saying that I value my own opinion. The fact that you think a franchise can go from one thing to something completely unrecognizable and still be considered the same type of game is laughable. The casuals DID force Bethesda's hand into making FO3 as it was. Because they, like you, refuse to draw the line. You will always buy whatever crap the studios throw at you without complaint and this only encourages more of this behavior.


"My games." That's a very telling and selfish set of words...

Maybe I used the wrong words then. Its frustrating that EVERYTHING must be catered to the casual crowd. I had thought that some games were safe. Think about it. The casuals don't want to play Thief. They don't want to play Fallout. In order to make it appealing to them, studios have to drastically change everything about the games. Until they resemble something more loud. Some people really enjoy games like Fallout. If we wanted to play run and gun FPS all day long, we never would have played Fallout in the first place. We'd be content to spam Quake day after day.

Is it wrong that I believe my opinion to be better than others? Is that not the whole point of having an opinion? If I did not believe that my opinion was right ... then I wouldn't even have an opinion at all now would I?


You know, one of these days, some game company is going to buy the rights to Thief and develop a game titled THIEF 5. And its going to be a Third Person Shooter set in the future, with a heavy emphasis on violence and over the top action. Then you'll get upset and complain. "THIEF 5!?!? This isn't Thief 5. How the hell is this Thief 5?" And then someone will rush in and start saying, "You're just a selfish elitist who just wants games your way. Well we want third person shooters. Stop being afraid of change!!11"

And I'll just laugh, because I tried to warn you. Of course by then it will be too late. Probably already is...

MasterTaffer
22nd May 2009, 08:30
Ok, this is crossing the line. Fallout was a classic crpg that was turned into a crappy run and gun for consoles.

Judging from the 1.7 million units sold and the near universal praise from critics, not to mention multiple "Game of the Year" awards, I wouldn't exactly call the game "Crappy." I honestly think you're in the minority there...


How can you not see that this is wrong.

1. See above.

2. I played it and can validate that it's deserving of the praise it's received.


The casuals are the ones being selfish when they demand that everything be made simpler and less complicated. I have no problem with them playing their own games, but then they rush in here and steal all of my games too. Its infuriating.

Once again, they aren't "your games." You're in the minority on the Fallout 3 "issue." Fallout 3 made many gamers happy. If you didn't like it, that's fine. But blaming other gamers because someone changed "your game" is immature and selfish, especially when the game in question is considered one of the best releases in ts respective year and stayed in the spirit and theme of the franchise extremely well.

It's still very much Fallout, just plays differently. And well.


There is some serious miscommunication going on here. Stop trying to make me feel bad by saying that I value my own opinion.

If your opinion is that you're better than someone else because they have different tastes then you, then that's a poor opinion to have. Perhaps you should feel bad. I'm not judging you because you didn't like games like Fallout 3 and Mass Effect. I'm judging you because you seem to look down on people who do.


The fact that you think a franchise can go from one thing to something completely unrecognizable and still be considered the same type of game is laughable.

Fallout 1 & 2 were RPGs and Fallout 3 was an action/adventure game. I never said they were the same type of game.


The casuals DID force Bethesda's hand into making FO3 as it was.

Into a multiple Game of the Year winner? Shame on them!


Because they, like you, refuse to draw the line. You will always buy whatever crap the studios throw at you without complaint and this only encourages more of this behavior.

Me thinks you have impossibly high standards, sir. There's a big difference between liking Fallout 3 and liking Party Babies from Ubisoft. It would appear you like to label any game you don't like as tripe for lesser lifeforms.


Maybe I used the wrong words then. Its frustrating that EVERYTHING must be catered to the casual crowd.
Yes, because they should stick to their simple games on their consoles, and should have their own water fountains and seats on the bus. God forbid, they might want to try new things..


I had thought that some games were safe. Think about it. The casuals don't want to play Thief.
So they shouldn't be allowed to?

They don't want to play Fallout.
I missed that gamer wide poll....

In order to make it appealing to them, studios have to drastically change everything about the games. Until they resemble something more loud.
You talk like they are infants that require shiny objects to keep their interest...

Some people really enjoy games like Fallout.
I know I did...

If we wanted to play run and gun FPS all day long, we never would have played Fallout in the first place.
Yes, and now that Fallout 3 has come, Fallout 1 & 2 have been destroyed from the annals of time!

We'd be content to spam Quake day after day.
Something wrong with liking Quake?


Is it wrong that I believe my opinion to be better than others?
Yes. It isn't wrong to value it, though.

Is that not the whole point of having an opinion? If I did not believe that my opinion was right ... then I wouldn't even have an opinion at all now would I?
Using your opinion to judge others based on their likes and dislikes of valid and legal forms of entertainment, which you've spent this whole time making abundantly clear that you do, is wrong. Someone who likes Fallout 3, Mass Effect, Quake, or Thief: Deadly Shadows is no better or worse than you. Their opinions and tastes in games are just as valid as yours. If they thought you were beneath them for playing games like Thief 2, they'de be in just as much the wrong as you are now.


You know, one of these days, some game company is going to buy the rights to Thief and develop a game titled THIEF 5. And its going to be a Third Person Shooter set in the future, with a heavy emphasis on violence and over the top action. Then you'll get upset and complain. "THIEF 5!?!? This isn't Thief 5. How the hell is this Thief 5?" And then someone will rush in and start saying, "You're just a selfish elitist who just wants games your way. Well we want third person shooters. Stop being afraid of change!!11"

Why would I waste my time complaining about that when i could just not buy the game. It's a hobby, not my life. I'm not going to freak out over something that is to the side to me functioning as a human being. If it isn't my cup of tea, then it isn't my cup of tea. If someone else gets some entertainment out of it, then good for them. They had fun. I'm not going to think they are beneath me. Because I'm RATIONAL enough to not judge them for HAVING DIFFERENT TASTES THAN ME.

Hell, I might even be able to get them to the prequel with the, "You like that, then you should check this out" approach...


And I'll just laugh, because I tried to warn you. Of course by then it will be too late. Probably already is... First they came for the Christians, and I did nothing. Aren't we being a bit dramatic?

Jilly The Taffer
22nd May 2009, 10:52
There are plenty of games on both consoles and PC that are brilliant and well designed.

Hm, yes, that is true. Oblivion and Assassins Creed are a couple of them, and they are exactly the same on PC as they are on PS3, graphics-wise, gameplay-wise ect...

After the let-down of DS in general, I think most of us blame that is sucks because it was made for a console also. Not because the game just lacked everything we loved about DP and MA.

I know that Eidos Montreal will make a great effort with Thief 4, and it will be greatly improved from the Deadly Shadows mistakes.
Therefore, if it turns out to be an amazing and pleasing game in general, it won't necarssarily make a difference if it's on consoles.

Anyway, I don't think we have a choice with Eidos, they released Tomb Raider Legend and Underworld on PC, Xbox, Wii and PS3.

MasterTaffer
22nd May 2009, 17:04
I know that Eidos Montreal will make a great effort with Thief 4, and it will be greatly improved from the Deadly Shadows mistakes.
Therefore, if it turns out to be an amazing and pleasing game in general, it won't necarssarily make a difference if it's on consoles.

Indeed! :thumb:

Plus it will allow plenty of other people experience a great game franchise, and possibly motivate someone to investigate the previous games in the series. Exposing new people to the franchise is a good thing, instead of keeping it as some sort of cloistered fanbase.

GmanPro
22nd May 2009, 19:48
You simply don't understand what I am saying. It shouldn't surprise me. I grow tired of proving that I am right so this will be the last time. This issue goes much further than just games. If you refuse to see the light then there is nothing more I can do.


Yes, because they should stick to their simple games on their consoles, and should have their own water fountains and seats on the bus. God forbid, they might want to try new things..

You are missing the point entirely.

THEY DON'T WANT TO TRY NEW THINGS!

If you can't see that, then you are ignorant or blind. Or both.


Yes. It isn't wrong to value it, though.

You are wrong.

I am right. You agree with me that I am right. I will prove it:

PC's are capable of doing much more than consoles. Yes? Ergo the devs should be designing Thief 4 for PC's first, yes? Its like measuring and cutting a piece of wood. If you cut it too short, you can't very well add more wood onto it now can you? So we agree that developing the game for PC first is the most prudent measure. After that development is complete, the studio should then start converting the game into something the consoles can handle. At the end of the day, the PC gamers get an actual PC game rather than a console game on a PC. Also, the console players will get an actual console game on a console. Win win. Now, the next thing that should happen is that the game (because it is finished being developed and is now undergoing a conversion to console process) should be released for PC's. Because I don't want to wait a few months to play the game. There is no reason why I should. And yet for no reason at all you rush out to attack me personally because you were looking for an argument.

MasterTaffer
22nd May 2009, 20:04
You simply don't understand what I am saying.
I don't think you do, but go on.

It shouldn't surprise me. I grow tired of proving that I am right...
Where did you do that? I must have missed it...

...so this will be the last time.
Considering you never proved anything other than that you think you're better that others and don't think they should be able to put their soiled hands on these game franchises, because you think you own them, you never proved you were right a first time.

This issue goes much further than just games. If you refuse to see the light then there is nothing more I can do.
How does this go beyond games? Console gamers going to come in an take your jobs soon or something?

You are missing the point entirely.

THEY DON'T WANT TO TRY NEW THINGS!

If you can't see that, then you are ignorant or blind. Or both.

And you took the time to interview every gamer on earth? Wow. Must have taken a load of time and effort. That or you're Charles Xavier and have read all their minds. Both of them are impressive, none the less.

And considering your whole arguement seems to stem from you not wanting anyone to change "your" games, I think you're the one who doesn't want to try new things. A tad bit hypocritical, isn't it?

Bigotry is bigotry. Whether it involves race, gender, orientation, or even simple preferences in entertainment. Saying console gamers don't want to try new things is completely ignorant. And while it might be lesser in scale, it's still the same basic act as saying all people of Mexican descent speak Spanish, or worse one like all black people live in the ghetto. Stop acting like a petty console bigot.

You are wrong.

I am right. You agree with me that I am right. I will prove it:

PC's are capable of doing much more than consoles. Yes? Ergo the devs should be designing Thief 4 for PC's first, yes? Its like measuring and cutting a piece of wood. If you cut it too short, you can't very well add more wood onto it now can you? So we agree that developing the game for PC first is the most prudent measure.

No, we don't agree, but go on...


After that development is complete, the studio should then start converting the game into something the consoles can handle. At the end of the day, the PC gamers get an actual PC game rather than a console game on a PC. Also, the console players will get an actual console game on a console. Win win.

Actually, it looks like to me that you want a superior version so you can lord it over people, but go on...

Now, the next thing that should happen is that the game (because it is finished being developed and is now undergoing a conversion to console process) should be released for PC's.
WHy is that?

Because I don't want to wait a few months to play the game. There is no reason why I should.
So your arguement for delayed release is because "you don't want to wait a few months?" Back to being selfish again, are we?

So why should everyone else have to wait to? Because you're better than them? Why is it so important that you get the game first? Looks liek this has boiled down to you being selfish and elitist yet again. Get over yourself, man.

And yet for no reason at all you rush out to attack me personally because you were looking for an argument.
No, because you were touting superiority over console gamers, and when I called you on it you let your ugly side show.

You are not better than console gamers. Console gamers aren't better than you. You've made it perfectly and abundantly clear that you're acting on selfish and elitist impulses, and participating in this asinine console war, which is filled with the game community equivilant of bigots.

Grow up, man.

Ravenwood
22nd May 2009, 22:28
Gmanpro: You're acting like a child with the whole "my game" and "no you're wrong I'm right" thing here. An elitist child who won't pay any attention to anything anyone says because they're beneath you.

No wait, forget acting like a child, you're acting like him:

http://www.wewantrandy.com/blog/images/cartman.gif

GmanPro
23rd May 2009, 02:29
I don't need other people to tell me that I am acting like a child thank you very much. I was talking like that because I wanted to push the argument deeper, to its source to understand truly why MT said and believed the things he did. And now I do. There is no need to continue this discussion.

MasterTaffer
23rd May 2009, 02:59
I don't need other people to tell me that I am acting like a child thank you very much.

You don't seem to register that you're acting like one, so I think they do...

I was talking like that because I wanted to push the argument deeper, to its source to understand truly why MT said and believed the things he did. And now I do. There is no need to continue this discussion.

Oooooh, so your elitist and selfish attitude was a ruse to discover that I think anyone who judges someone based on their preference in games or platforms is a prick. My God, you're a clever jackal, aren't you?

I have a bottom line bulleted list right here:

PC gamers aren't better than console gamers.
Console gamers aren't better than PC gamers.
Everyone has the right to play Thief 4 at the same time. Delaying release onto consoles is an asinine idea.
Nobody but Eidos owns the Thief franchise, so refering to it as "Your game" is a false and greedy statement.
A game being ported to consoles does not make it an instant turd.
If you think you're better than someone because of what they play games on, what games they play, etc, you're a waste of space who needs to get over themselves.
Console gamers have just as varied tastes as PC gamers. They aren't a mass group of single minded action junkies like Mr. GmanPro up there so ignorantly likes to paint them.
We're all just gamers, so play and have fun. Don't be an ignorant hate tank.

xDarknessFallsx
23rd May 2009, 05:21
Since Fallout 3 was mentioned, I want to say that I'm 'somewhat' enjoying it, but finding it incredibly annoying that the AI in it is the same as Morrowind (which came out in like 2002), which is the same as Oblivion (which came out in like 2006). Bethesda games.

Bethesda needs to hire a new AI programmer; this is rediculous.

I think I've figured out the logic used for the enemy AI. I'm being facetious. The script used for the AI must be about two lines of code, max.
1) NCP patrols area for no reason / waits for player to arrive
2) Player arrives somewhere within a 50 meter radius
3) NCP's state is immediately raised to alert and immediately knows where player is
4) NCP rushes player in a bee-line path

Since Bethesda's AI can't be improved in at least 7 years time, I feel sorry for them. Fallout 3's gameplay and AI are simply a regurgitation of Oblivion and Morrowind, only set in a wasteland this time. Fortunately, they did figure out how to not make every friendly NCP say stupid greetings every time you get near them... it happens only most of the time. I think the only Bethesda game I've ever enjoyed is Wayne Gretzky hockey for the Amiga 500.

In the end, I've always found Thief 2's AI refreshing. The only game I can play where the enemies don't get immediately alerted when you open a door to a room they're in... or when you get within "x meters" of them. If anyone can point me to a stealth game that has as enjoyable and realistic AI (compared to every other game on the market) as Thief 2, a game that came out years ago, I'm all ears..

dnoeyen
23rd May 2009, 10:55
1. Use the pc's full abilities of keyboard and mouse, don't spoil the game to make it compatible with the consoles.

2.Get Yathzees feedback, he's game reviewer, maker of the zero-punctuation reviews.
He was a huge fan of Thief 1&2 (and it's very rare for Yathzee not to break down a game to ground level), he did break down thief 3, but I think I can say that wasn't a faith undeserved.


Like Princess_Frosty mentoined in the first post:



I don't have problems with consoles getting their own Thief game, and I dont have problems with it being toned down in the skill section, and the graphics section in order to be viable for the platform.

Please just PLEASE, I beg you, keep that seperate from the PC version, build 2 entirely seperate games if that is what is required to keep the design for the PC to the quality of the originals, I am a massive fan of the series and Thief 2 is overall my top1 game even to this day, I love everything about the games and really want to see the quality of Thief 2 come back driven with modern technology, but fear we'll just have another Thief 3

Take a look at Yahtzees review of the series here - http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/544-Thief-The-Dark-Project He gives Thief 1 and 2 praise and slays Thief 3, I emplore you to pay attention to this feedback early in development and make the adjustments now to please both crowds, otherwise you'll destroy the franchise on the PC.

xDarknessFallsx
23rd May 2009, 19:27
1. Use the pc's full abilities of keyboard and mouse, don't spoil the game to make it compatible with the consoles.

This will be nice for PS3'ers: http://gear.ign.com/articles/986/986140p1.html

Also, the PS3 supports bluetooth keyboards

hexhunter
23rd May 2009, 20:09
God I hate these damn fanboy vs fanboy threads.

I really want them to make this game for the PS3 aswell as the PC, we can't all have a Crytek ready PC to play the newest games on and however much some people want it to be, Thief 4 isn't going to be using the Dark Engine.

Frankly I agree that I don't want any version of this game to be made worse because it has to be ported to another platform, but we don't have PS2s and Xboxs anymore, my PS3 could play any game for brand new PCs, infact there are several aspects that would mean that Thief 4 having to work on a standard PC would make my version worse, like DVD for instance. But that's something which could, with enough time, be worked out.

As far as I see, all games must be made to work as well as they can on each system they are on. That means that both the PC and the PS3 versions should have the exact same control system for both keyboard/mouse and controller. If I want to play it with my gamepad I play it with the gamepad, if I want to play it with the keyboard, I play it with the keyboard, it doesn't matter what system I'm using, it's as simple as that.

That doesn't include the 360 of course, I'm fairly sure you can't use a keyboard and mouse on that. So xbox players would have to settle with controllers.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
23rd May 2009, 21:48
Bethesda needs to hire a new AI programmer; this is rediculous.


I know right?:D As much as I love them for making open world games I do tire of their AI.



So casual gamers were the ones who changed Fallout 3's design? Man, I must have missed the article on gamepolitics.com where casual gamers invaded Bethesda and held them at gunpoint until they made Fallout 3 the way it was released.

Very funny! It must be half true though. Only instead of guns they used wallets. Why else would the game have turned out the way it did? They wanted that sweet casual money. To hell with the original fans. Let's get some easy fans and milk them with Downloadable Content. I wouldn't be so offended by Fallout 3 if they just gave it a different title, like The Elder Scrolls: Apocalypse or something.

While it may not necessarily be true that console gamers love dumbed down games, it sure looks like they do. It's just that, these casuals happen to prefer using the console. You know how stereotypes work. If most console gamers didn't know how to dance then I would think all of them don't know how to get down.


A game being ported to consoles does not make it an instant turd.

Exactly, and that's why it should be ported to consoles and not ported to the PC. Because a game ported to the PC is in fact an instant turd.


Console gamers have just as varied tastes as PC gamers. They aren't a mass group of single minded action junkies like Mr. GmanPro up there so ignorantly likes to paint them.

Console gamers being a mass group of single minded action junkies is a stereotype. It's not just GmanPro that thinks it.

I've heard rumors that console gamers have a collective consciousness, a 'hive mind'. They not only play the same games, but wear the same clothing, listen to the same music, and assume that everybody is homosexual.

In the end, as far as Thief is concerned. As long as it's not ported to the pc, and any dumb downs are optional, we will all be happy. PC gamer and controller chucker alike.

Crashlander
25th May 2009, 15:20
It is painfully *painfully* clear that many many PC owners are still very deluded and have spent very little or no time at all on consoles, and yet still feel they have the knowledge to make baseless attacks against other platforms.
Anyone who has spent a decent amount of time on todays (TODAYS not PS2 or before) consoles will know their capabilities, will be able to use a gamepad, and would not be making these tired attacks.

I used to be a PC gamer. I used to spend £600-£1000 building a gaming PC then keep chasing the hardware for years. I used to put up with installation problems, lock ups, compatibility issues, buying a gfx card just to find it has hoojah flippy version 1.2 NOT version 1.3 so the game I just spent £30 on isn't going to work unless I buy another card for £150.
It got to the point (ironically enough) that Thief 3 (and Doom 3) kept locking up and ditching me back to windows and I'd had enough. At that point I bought the original Xbox with Thief 3 and Doom 3. The games looked identical, played identical, the console cost £150 not £600+, and I can now go shell out for a game knowing for a fact it will work, and knowing for a fact it will look and sound as good as it ever will on my rig - no upgrades required.

Today I use an Xbox 360 with games like Supreme Commander, Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Gears of War, Infinite Undiscovery - all very big and complicated games that look identical (if not better) than the Pc version. I use a flawless friends system that connects multiplayer games in seconds with little or no lag. My games are patched in seconds, load in seconds, can be installed to the 360's hard drive.

Try to remember, before making tired judgements and comments that a lot of console gamers used to be PC gamers, but gave it up for an easier way of doing things and have not looked back.

Baseless attacks by people who don't know what they're talking about IS what racism, bigotry, arrogance and elitism is all about. Any poster with "consolitis", "dumbed down" or "console mush" or similar small minded passive aggressive is immediately showing themselves up and invalidating their own post, rendering it useless and a waste of web space.

Platinumoxicity
25th May 2009, 15:51
Baseless attacks by people who don't know what they're talking about IS what racism, bigotry, arrogance and elitism is all about. Any poster with "consolitis", "dumbed down" or "console mush" or similar small minded passive aggressive is immediately showing themselves up and invalidating their own post, rendering it useless and a waste of web space.

Agreed. Some games are not even supposed to be ported to the PC because they work better on a console, such as the Resident Evil series or the Need For Speed series or the Metal Gear series. Their PC ports really are suffering from "consolitis". Thief 3, on the other hand was intended for PC originally, but they had to design in based on the limitations of the possible console version and the designers probably had the basic stereotypical impression of console players on their mind. They made the game 3rd person and much simpler because they thought it was necessary. The PC fans had to bear with the compromise that the designers had made between marketing for the PC community, and marketing for the nonexistant "consoletard stereotype" community.

Console ports of PC games can work, but it can be hard to make some games to play well on the controls.
PC ports can work if the console version has been designed with both versions on mind.
PC ports that are exact copies of the console version are bad. (MGS2)
Exclusively console-based sequels of PC games are mostly horrendous disasters. For example: Call of Duty 3, Condemned:Bloodshot, Far Cry:Instincts

HellionKal
25th May 2009, 16:15
My only contribution to this discussion will be related to the "Game of the Year" awards mentioned some posts ago (forum chronology ftw).

It is rather naive to say that a game is successful and well-designed simply because it received "GOTY" awards (or any awards for that matter). Backroom deals and magazine "exclusive sneak peak/info/review!!!!" policies most probably give the awards to whoever pays the magazine the most.

I mean, Fallout 3, a game in which the Sheriff of a town approaches you and says "I don't know why, but I like you boy!" and the main character uses the incredible argument "please help me, I miss him so much!" in order to get info on the whereabouts of HIS DADDY, received the award for "best writing" for Azathoth's sake. People who see nothing wrong with the reasoning behind that award scare me a bit at night.

This whole "awards/reviews" issue becomes rather funny when analyzing the case of the "Oblivion review syndrome". It received universal praise, GOTY awards and 100/100 reviews when it came out, but when Fallout 3 was announced to be in development EVERY GOD-DAMNED MAGAZINE/SITE REVIEWER suddenly started criticizing Oblivion and pointing out its flaws (flaws that under no circumstances called for a 100/100 review in the first place) in an outburst of honesty, at times completely contradicting themselves when first reviewing the game, and pointing out that "Bethesda is sure to address these blatant flaws!!!" in Fallout 3. Then Fallout 3 comes out and receives universal praise, GOTY awards and 100/100 reviews.

How much do you want to bet me that, when the next "Elder Scrolls" game is announced, ALL magazines/sites will start pointing out flaws in Fallout 3 that they will have completely ignored by that point?

Carry on, carry on.

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
26th May 2009, 14:39
Judging from the 1.7 million units sold and the near universal praise from critics, not to mention multiple "Game of the Year" awards, I wouldn't exactly call the game "Crappy." I honestly think you're in the minority there...


Wii Fit sold much more than Fallout 3, surely that means it's a better game, right?
If metacritics rating is an indicator and so is the number of units sold, Oblivion is the best cRPG ever and Planescape Torment is crap. :rolleyes:

Face it, F3 was a dumbed down POS created with console gamers in mind. You might like it as a GAME, but it f**ked up everything that was great about the franchise and ultimately killed it.

ToMegaTherion
26th May 2009, 16:51
Planescape Torment is crap.

GmanPro
26th May 2009, 17:59
Planescape Torment is crap.

Does not compute

Gabriel
26th May 2009, 20:39
Planescape Torment is crap.

oh no he didn't!

ToMegaTherion
26th May 2009, 21:18
What really baffles me about Planescape fans (same applies to Fallout fans, although they're usually more reasonable) is their extreme inability to comprehend why it's quite reasonable to find the game really quite dull and annoying.

ToMegaTherion
26th May 2009, 22:43
I can't tell if that's a veiled insult or a neutral comment, would you mind elaborating?

GmanPro
26th May 2009, 23:41
Torment (and Fallout to some extent) proved that its possible to make a great game without being on the edge of graphical capabilities and without constant, fast paced action. Something like 85% of Torment is dialogue, and it is amazing.

ToMegaTherion
27th May 2009, 08:30
The unusually complex structure of the dialogue trees and the overall style of the writing is nice, and it makes me wonder why more people haven't tried doing similar things (the annoying tendency for all dialogue to be voiced these days may be responsible for that in part), but it's a shame that outside of the dialogue the game is flat and tedious. So you have to get 100% of your entertainment from the dialogue, which would actually be possible if they hadn't filled it with lots of pseudo-intellectual babble and, worse, given the player more reward when they choose the options to agree with the babble.

To be fair, I don't think it's actually a bad game, but I don't find it is consistently interesting. I just mention it because some of the more vitriolic posts on this forum equates the author's opinion with objective truth, and anyone with a different opinion as an idiot. It's in fact rare to find a game, or indeed anything, that there is no way one can like it or dislike it without being stupid.

razorstealth
8th Jun 2009, 00:15
i loved having TDS play for Xbox and 360. Something about big screen, surround sound Thief just makes it so much better than on a little pc screen. It is easier to feel part of the game when you can hear it from all directions. The 3rd person was nifty to be able to see The Master Thief blackjack the enemies. it gave Garrett a more "mysterious" side to be able to see around a corner without looking. The wall grab was Not a safe haven at all! there were many times unsuspicious guards would get too close and id have to run for it. Also it is much more comprehensive control with a controller verses a keyboard. Xbox's announcement for Project Natal has me hoping EM has thief 4 for the 360. How awesome it would be to blackjack an enemy with my arm rather than pushing a button!

esme
8th Jun 2009, 12:07
the one thing I want on a PC platform that will absolutely stop me buying Thief4

it has to be DirectX 9.0C compatible

I am not under any circumstances putting Vista on my machine nor will I be buying a new machine just to play Thief4, and I'd say it's highly unlikely I'll be upgrading to Windows 7 any time soon either

so that means DX10 is out for me

I'll be paying quite enough for the game without having to buy a new system to run it on

Gan Xodos
9th Jun 2009, 11:15
I will kill them if it's not DX11. anyhow seriously windows 7 works like a charm, if it's different for you it's because you have a crap system.

dx11 is soooo much better, look for an article about it on google (and DX11 works on vista and DX10 cards as well)

AbysmalGale
9th Jun 2009, 12:27
In my mind, Thief 3 was almost completely ruined by being developed multiplatform, it massively dumbed down the 3rd installment for the console users and I think I'm right in saying that a decent portion of the PC fans were quite dissapointed.

If you want a role model for Thief 4 then look no further than Thief 2, the developers of the original 2 games made a bold statement, no elements of the game were sacraficed in order to give the game a mass market appeal.

So here's my list of complaints with Thief 3 in no real particular order


Arrow trails, bright shiney arrow trails that were left behind, the sort of thing you expect coming out the back of a sword in a manga movie, great for futuristic japanese cartoons, bad for steampunk medievil.
Bright blue obnoxious opaque highlighting on everything, instead of the subtle transparent light grey, this was so "in your face" it's untrue.
3rd person view.
Removal of rope arrows, and subsequently the sort of puzzles that required them...thats a major facepalm right there.
Loading parts in level, the PC version had them and didn't need them, neither the originals had loading zones and Thief 2 in particular had some city sized maps, the restrictions of the consoles were brought to the PC once again. They could have at least made them a door or something like that, but they put these stupid looking blue swirly clouds all over the place, again just "in your face" obnoxious.
Glinting loot, apparantly console players can't find loot on their own like you had to in the originals, it has to have a massive glint on it to show you what was valuable and made it easier to find in the dark.
Easy lock picking, it looked good at first but while theres analogue movement around the circle the only sweet spots are at the N,S,E,W positions, so you just tap WASD quickly to find it and click, you could pick even the hardest locks in a second. Locks in the originals reuqired fiddling between sets of lock picks and had a minimum time delay to pick, this was great tension building if you had to be in the light to pick the lock and there was patrols about, you'd be bouncing up and down in your chair shouting "c'mooooon" at the screen afraid a guard would spot you and blow all your hard work.
Movement was god awful, it was clearly built a 3rd person game and 1st person view was an afterthought it seems, it was awkward as your body rotated in strange ways making movement in 1st person extremely irritating.
The back to the wall feature cheapened the game, it made you practically impossible to spot in even mildly dark areas, it was a sort of failsafe that always worked, no need to plan ahead and monitor guard routes, and time everything well, just pop out of the shadows and if a guard comes hug the wall and safe as houses, just lame.


You'll see most of these isues stem from cross platform development, the restrictions of the hardware in the console versions made for a reduction in level sizes without loading zones. The average skill in a first person environment by the average console player with a gamepad was no where close to being agile enough to control Garrett from Thief1&2 so 3rd person was added to allow you to cheat a look around corners, the wall hug was added to make hiding easy, rope arrows that required a great amount of 3D orientation were removed.

Basically the tone of the whole game for 1&2 was that you were an elite thief, the best of the best who could sneak in and steal everything and leave without a single guard being alerted, and it even spawned the idea of "ghosting" from the fans where this was a made up condition to beat the level.

I don't have problems with consoles getting their own Thief game, and I dont have problems with it being toned down in the skill section, and the graphics section in order to be viable for the platform.

Please just PLEASE, I beg you, keep that seperate from the PC version, build 2 entirely seperate games if that is what is required to keep the design for the PC to the quality of the originals, I am a massive fan of the series and Thief 2 is overall my top1 game even to this day, I love everything about the games and really want to see the quality of Thief 2 come back driven with modern technology, but fear we'll just have another Thief 3

Take a look at Yahtzees review of the series here - http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/544-Thief-The-Dark-Project He gives Thief 1 and 2 praise and slays Thief 3, I emplore you to pay attention to this feedback early in development and make the adjustments now to please both crowds, otherwise you'll destroy the franchise on the PC.

P.S While we're on the subject of consolitis can we make sure that a multiplatform developed title has proper PC screen aspect ratio support (4:3, 5:3 and 16:10) for the resolutions, proper widescreen support - that is to say widescreen is added Horizontal width and not minus vertical height (pay attention to www.widescreengaimgforum.com if you need to learn how to do it correctly), no mouse acceleration or at least let us disable mouse acceleration. A proper Field of View angle, it should be approx 90 degrees for 4:3 and 103 degrees for 16:10, again see WSGF, these are ALL typical problems with games developed for the consoles as well as the PC and can all easily be avoided.

Just wanted to say that I agree with EVERYTHING! This is soooo important for the DEVS to read!

clock12345
9th Jun 2009, 13:30
i am saying that 3rd person should not be seperated from the game i have a good idea that you wont cheat with it: at the beggining of the game you can have both choises 3rd person or 1rd person if you chose one of them you will stay with it untill you finish the game this is a good idea people make this!

AbysmalGale
9th Jun 2009, 14:51
at the beggining of the game you can have both choises 3rd person or 1rd person

Hehe. If you pronounce the two views you've entered above, they will both sound kind of like "third person" ;) "Third" and "fird" person.

esme
9th Jun 2009, 15:15
I will kill them if it's not DX11. anyhow seriously windows 7 works like a charm, if it's different for you it's because you have a crap system.

dx11 is soooo much better, look for an article about it on google (and DX11 works on vista and DX10 cards as well)

It's a laptop 2Ghz Intel Core 2 T7200, Nvidia Geforce Go 7950 GTX, 1680x1050 display, 1Gb Ram usual bells and whistles re dvdrw,usb,firewire, yaddayadda

ok I could probably use more Ram if I upgrade the OS

I can run Vista and Win7 quite happily I just don't want Vista after fixing lots of other peoples problems with it, and I don't particularly want to buy Win7 on the premise that why should I spend £300ish on a new OS to replace one that works perfectly, when the only reason to do so is to play a game costing £30-£40

I'm more likely to wait for it running under Wine and put Un*x on

-- EDIT --

or OpenGL which I'd completely forgotten about, which would make it pretty much platform, OS and vagaries of Microsoft independent

Browser
13th Jun 2009, 02:14
(I would have liked to add a poll for this but didn't see the option, I also searched and didn't see any posts about this)

I just wanted to say I hope the next Thief does not use Games for Windows Live, or any other such things. Others may or may not feel the same way about it as I do but personally I think it does nothing for the end user.

It does not make anything easier.
It does not stop piracy (nothing does, not even a flawless product but that's the best bet, get over it).
It is not supported everywhere (every country) which causes problems for those people.
It does add many extra complications.
It does add a middleman.
It does annoy the manure out of me.

Also I don't want to install some third party nonsense or some silly "social club" running or installed in order to play a game. If I want a social experience I'll to out for the night.

ps, ie please keep the game as self contained and independent as possible.

Helegad
13th Jun 2009, 02:20
I'm with you. This better not be a repeat of GTAIV PC, or it's gonna stay on my shelf forever.

Hypevosa
13th Jun 2009, 03:17
Games for windows live seems to be a service where the game ties into an windows live account and accrues you gamerscore, and allows for multiplayer over windows live servers etc. It's xbox live for windows is how I see it... While I love the idea of achievements for thief, I really do, I don't want them to have to deal with anymore crap than they have to in order to make a good solid game.

kabatta
13th Jun 2009, 06:20
I think achievements get too much fuss theese days for what they're worth:
"hitting a man with the blackjack, achievement unlocked"
"mugging a woman, achievement unlocked"
"getting back at a powerfull foe, achievement unlocked"
What happened to the old fashioned untold achievements where you would do something and not get some wierd text abouth it? Oh, well...time changes fast.

Hypevosa
13th Jun 2009, 07:37
It really depends how achievements are used. There are some worthless achievements, like in halo 3 there was getting a triple kill with a sword, which is largely luck since the 3 people need to be right next to eachother, NOT shooting at you, you need to not get sniped, and actually have the sword. It's very very rare that those all line up... most people got it during a zombies achievement match where everyone agreed to have it done to them.

Then there's achievements of moderate value... in left 4 dead there's the pharmacist achievement where it encourages you to share pills with people when they need them, and the others where you get the achievement for healing other people with medkits. It teaches you a mechanic of the game, and rewards you for using it.

Then there's high value achievements, which normally consist of making the player try even a new playing style altogether... like in Team Fortress 2, where there's achievements for each class of character, meaning the player's encouraged to try each out and learn at least the basics of each... that way teams aren't made up all of one type of guy, but usually are more diverse.

Achievements can be used well to expand the player's awareness and horizons in a game, but they are expendable. Mostly in games with multiplayer (as you can see above) is where they are needed/wanted to help players learn mechanics or try new things. In a single player game like thief 4, they aren't so needed.

K^2
13th Jun 2009, 08:23
If they make Thiaf run through Windows Live, I'm going to rent a plane, fly it over Montreal, and cover EM office building with toilet paper.

Edit: Just in case somebody calls me on this, what's the littering fine in Montreal like? I just checked the CARs, and they are fine with objects being dropped from airplanes, just as long as they create no hazard. (CAR 602.23)

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
13th Jun 2009, 21:28
(I would have liked to add a poll for this but didn't see the option, I also searched and didn't see any posts about this)

I just wanted to say I hope the next Thief does not use Games for Windows Live, or any other such things. Others may or may not feel the same way about it as I do but personally I think it does nothing for the end user.

It does not make anything easier.
It does not stop piracy (nothing does, not even a flawless product but that's the best bet, get over it).
It is not supported everywhere (every country) which causes problems for those people.
It does add many extra complications.
It does add a middleman.
It does annoy the manure out of me.

Also I don't want to install some third party nonsense or some silly "social club" running or installed in order to play a game. If I want a social experience I'll to out for the night.

ps, ie please keep the game as self contained and independent as possible.

M-M-M-MEGA WORD.

I hate these third party things so much. For me, they add ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the game/experience. Not a damned thing. So people tell me it's to stop piracy. O Really? I can tell you it does not. It's just super annoying for the regular guy. The pirate? He just removes/bypasses it.

So what is the point of these things? I guess it's just to make multiplayer gaming more interesting for some people. Personally, I don't give a flying F about 'achievements' and other people's stats. I just want a simple multiplayer browser and maybe even automatching. I don't need stats, smurfs, and login hassles. People have a lame tendency to obsess about their stats and turn a fun game match into crap because they are trying to get this or that badge and keep a perfect score of some sort. Just play the game.

How about not having the game revolve around these things? For starters, if I want to play singleplayer, I don't want to see or hear anything about social clubs and xboxlive and whatever. Just let me install those optionally if I want to. I don't want to be forced to use or make accounts for programs I will not use or participate in.

I remember when I would install a game and at some point it might ask "would you like to install gameshadow to automatically patch your games?" I'd say "no, I'm fine without it" and that's that. Do I want to install Gamespy/Xfire? I say no thanks and then I'm off to play the game. I never see those things again after installing the game. That's how it should be done. "Would you like to install the Thiaf club to blah blah?" No thanks, next. "would you like to install XboxLive?" No thanks, finish.

I would hate to see "you must be logged in to start the game" "you must be logged in to save the game". Argh and "OFFLINE WARNING you wont be able to get achievements!" boo-freakin-hoo. And have my freaking menu show up with random videos that other users uploaded and whatever else. Or if I'm not logged in I have my menu show up as a giant white "page cannot be displayed" error. If I want to log into some club to look at other peoples stats and videos I will go to the damned website. I don't want it forced on me. gah I hate it all so much! It's just worthless junk that gets between me and my game.

Zahr Dalsk
13th Jun 2009, 22:16
No GFWL is good.

NO STEAM EITHER.

What does steam do? Gives a hard time playing. Make us get a cracked, free version of the game so that we don't have to use steam. Gives us popups. Adds lots of bugs and makes it difficult to run the game. Forces internet connection. Adds to load on processor.

It doesn't even stop pirating - just like Securom, a pirated version of a steam game (which doesn't need steam to run) is actually BETTER than a purchased version.

DON'T USE STEAM.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
13th Jun 2009, 23:06
Yea I hate steam. After a few games that required it I realized that I must now make sure a game doesn't require steam before I consider buying it. It's just too much of a hassle for me. I'm sure a lot of people think it's convenient, but I don't like it. I prefer to order boxed copies of games over the internet. I also prefer to just start my games directly without having something like steam in the way. Also, I'd rather just see my game's file located under 'program files' and not under steam somewhere.

I just don't like having programs between me and my games. If I want to use them I will, if not, then I'd like to avoid them.

Honestly, nothing can really stop pirates. Any anti-pirating measures just inconvenience the honest customer. There's a lot of people who had big issues with securom, starforce, and such. Luckily, I've never had problems with securom. I did however hate how starforce would make me wait about 5 minutes while it checked my disc. So annoying, I had to go out of my way to remove it so I could enjoy the game I paid for. I wont get into the whole drm 'license' crap much. Just look at spore reviews on amazon to see how much people loved it (they HATED it). I believe the Sims 3 was released without crappy drm because of the Spore fiasco. What a disaster Spore was. In many ways.

I used to think the simple cd checks and serial keys were annoying. Nowadays, I yearn for that simplicity.

K^2
13th Jun 2009, 23:23
I think Steam version is perfectly alright, as long as the boxed version doesn't require Steam to run.

I don't mind Steam too much, but I have made a mistake of purchasing GTAIV via Steam. And what a bloody mistake that was. I need 3 extra programs running just to start the game.

The basic idea is not wrong. PC OS are typically not built for gaming. So they do lack certain features that are convenient when you are playing a game. However, all of these things can be provided by a service that sits very, very quietly when not in use, and does not require you to go through its own interface to start a game. Game should be the same executable as it was before, but it may rely on existence of the service. And most importantly, it shouldn't require you to create an account. If you don't want to, you shouldn't have to.

Hareton
14th Jun 2009, 09:51
This is the only part of your arguement that might have had an effect from console limitations. But at the same time I may also doubt that. Games like Splinter Cell Chaos Theory had huge environments that put Deadly Shadows' to shame, and it saw an amazing console release.You are implying that limitations of TDS engine wasn’t xbox’s fault wich is a lie. There is even object limit so Dromeders can’t do good maps for it.


The purpose of this message is not to say consoles are superior to PC's, and I do not want to start some strange fanboy upset. I acknowledge and understand that PC's are capable of more when it comes to video games. All of that prior stuff being said, I would like to make a casual observation.

(...)
When it comes to the Xbox 360, you have some of the most graphically impressive titles to grace the gaming world. No, we have not seen Crysis on consoles, but we have seen Gears of War 2 and Call of Duty 4, both of which are amazing games. The Xbox was utterly incapable of creating an immersive experience due to its graphical limitations. The Xbox360 does not have this problem. I understand that the Xbox360 has been out for 4 years, which means PC's have improved that much, and the Xbox360 has not. We could potentially have the same problem we did with Thief: Deadly Shadows. I would argue that the Xbox360 is not graphically limited to the point where it will dampen your PC gameplay experience. The Xbox360 is a phenomenal piece of hardware (when it works).

The developers would actually make more money and a better game by hacking off you PC people and doing a straight console game that is well developed, such as Gears of War 2, and port the game over to you all later with graphical improvements. The market for the Xbox360 is much better than your market. People, including myself, prefer to play games on their 60" plasma televisions with 7.1 surround sound and 1080i.

Just because you think that you have to hack off "skillz" or whatever because PC's are more capable, does not mean that the PC is superior. The market rates superiority on accessibility, and the Xbox360 is a much more accessible platform. Just because we don't have a keyboard, does not mean that we don't have the ability to play at the same level as you. If you have not played a great FPS on the Xbox360 yet, I tell you it is a must. They are not limited in 3D ability. Puzzle-solving is the same. You would be silly to think that the PC is more capable of providing a 3D world in the sense of "using rope arrows to solve puzzles." I do agree the PC could provide larger worlds with less loading, but like I said, this does not mean that the masses will like it more.

I hope you understand that Eidos would be wise to make a straight console game that ports over to you all later. The Xbox360 has hardware capable of alleviating all of the complaints you listed above.

Good luck flaming me. I know that this is somehow going to be offensive to some of you. But remember what I said at the beginning, I acknowledge the PC is a better machine than a console. I am just remarking on the fact that consoles are not as limited now as they once were, and that companies will make more money if they develop straight console games that can be ported to PC gamers later on.
You ******* idiot, making Thief console game would lead to low res textures and small maps compared to PC possibilities, also ****ty movement. Xbox 360 may look good on TV but not on monitors.
Xbox killed Thief series and heavily affected all PC gaming leading it to downfall. Why you xbox fanboys don't stick to your crappy Tears of War but want our legendary game corrupted?

It all comes down to one thing: speed control. The analog sticks on consoles allow you a far greater degree of precision over Garrett's movement speed than does the keyboard, and without the hand cramps involved with trying to hold down shift and ctrl to modify your walking speed. You clearly are retarded, maybe your fat fingers can't aim in the keyboard? Thief 2 was far more precise in movement.

Oh please...If this was Xbox or PS2 Id understand, but this is 360 and PS3. Look at Mass Effect, Fallout 3 or Final Fantasy XII. You no longer need to sacrafice quality for accessability.Are you 12 years old? Mass Effect and Fallout 3 are victims of consolisation, everything in these games is screwed because of consoles - maps, movement, graphics.


the fact its made to also run on a 360/PS3/microwave oven makes no difference.Sure, and If they make next Total War on PC and consoles IT WON’T MAKE ******* DIFFERENCE, RIGHT?

Thief fans REALLY have to get over the console hatred. The simple fact that a gmae is on a console does NOT mean the game will suck. I am well aware of how jaded people are after Deadly Shadows, but that was the fault of poor design and development choices from Ion Storm. NOT because it was on a console. There are plenty of games on both consoles and PC that are brilliant and well designed. These "well designed" game you are talking about are console games, which can be good for console gamers, but can't compete with purely PC games.

The sooner people shut their gobs about it and go back to HAVING FUN PLAYING GAMES, the better the whole video game industry will be for itConsoles are ruining fun of PC games. You are a traitor to Thief fanbase or you didn't play T1&2.

So because of the limitations in the console, you think the owners of them should be penalized by not letting them play Thief 4 or delayed release dates in comparison to the PC games. I'm to believe this sentiment isn't elitist in what way?Another portion of logical falcies. I could say that I'm penalized because PS3 have exclusives (crappy exclusives I don't care about but yeah).
Then you are trying to deny fact that Fallout wasn't messed because of console release which is total blindness and proves that you tremendous ***got and cancer killing video games.

It is painfully *painfully* clear that many many PC owners are still very deluded and have spent very little or no time at all on consoles, and yet still feel they have the knowledge to make baseless attacks against other platforms.
Anyone who has spent a decent amount of time on todays (TODAYS not PS2 or before) consoles will know their capabilities, will be able to use a gamepad, and would not be making these tired attacks. Your main problem is ignorance. Play Thief 2 and you will understand what we are talking about.

ToMegaTherion
14th Jun 2009, 09:52
As long as there is some version of the game I can play without needing to insert a disc I will be happy :)

K^2
14th Jun 2009, 10:43
As long as you legally obtained your copy, there is nothing wrong with getting a crack for the PC version to run without disk in drive.

Tushaar
14th Jun 2009, 11:02
Let's pray that eidos won't be making the worst mistake and put Thief4 on consoles. I agree with Hareton.(The longlong post above)

ToMegaTherion
14th Jun 2009, 11:18
Are there any major FPS games that are single-platform these days? (I don't play FPS so I don't know)

fayfuya
14th Jun 2009, 11:22
That's so right, that back-to-the-wall was very lame, i believe we should be able to do it, but only to escape the light in small and narrow places, and also for hiding as in TDS, but not like that, if a guard sees me i just stick to the wall, the guard's sword goes through my stomach, his nose gets into my eye and he shout "where are you noisy little taffer" in my face, wtf?
The arrows' traile were awful, and the city portals (glyph portals) were fine because it was a really portal after all, not a door...but the usual portals, when you switch from south quarter to stonemarket plaza and so, it's stupid, please put a door instead or something or "loading..."
Garrett had his own home, it's stupid, i think he should be staying in several inns across the city, with payment tab, in the inn there's usually also a tavern, there he may also find some jobs if not somewhere else in the city.

gpagonewest
14th Jun 2009, 11:34
I am a PC man through and through, I have been playing games since my early 20's and I am now 43.

But we live in a world of good quality consoles and that isn't going to change. There is no way a developer is going to only develop for PC's alone. I doesn't make any business sense, and that is the bottom line, they are a business and they have to make a profit.

The problem TDS had was a belief that they could develop PC/XBOX side by side at the same time without any adverse effects.

That cant be done, do one, then the other. That way you have a better chance to tweak the game to fit the platforms advantages.

Yotun
14th Jun 2009, 16:48
I've just read this thread beginning to end, and I HAVE to come in for a bit, because this has been one of the most annoying reads I've ever had to go through.

First, Master Taffer, you are REALLY, REALLY annoying, and I'm starting to get pissed off with people who think that they're somehow more 'balanced' and more 'fair' because they're neutral, and that if you state the obvious, you're somehow a 'fanboy' or something like this.

Here's the problem.

There's some people in here who were NOT PC gamers, or at least serious PC gamers, during the days when the original Thief games were released, who instead used to game on consoles or not at all, and are today mostly console gamers, or experienced with PC games only during these later years. These people are CONVINCED that console games and modern games are to the same standard as PC games used to be, that we're just being nostalgic, that we don't really play modern console games to realise how sophisticated they are, that we're don't realise that there's no real difference between the platforms.

Here's something to get through your heads: I have an Xbox, I have an Xbox 360, I own tons of games for them, and I own practically all the so called 'revolutionary' games that came for these in the last 2 generations, that 'millions' of people bought apparently proving how good they are.

Do NOT tell me that there is NOT a drop in quality when you did NOT experience PC gaming as we did.

All those revolutionary console games, that I own, and have played, SUCK compared to the best of PC gaming of old.

Bioshock, Oblivion, Gears of War, Mass Effect, Fallout 3, its funny to see these used as examples of the great games of today, when all of those games are severely flawed from my perspective, and all are inferior in absolute terms to far older games.

Here's another thing:
FACT - Console controls are incapable of allowing for as complicated and intuitive an interface as mouse and keyboard. Another person mentioned this in a previous thread, analysing how menus, inventory screens etc are very difficult to do in consoles. That is true. An interface as brilliant, complex, and yet intuitive and immersive as that for the original Deus Ex cannot be created for a console due to the lack of a mouse and a large number of keys to use. Since the interface is THE most basic link between the player and the system, console games WILL suffer because of this.

Whatever good games you mention for consoles - your Halos, GTAs, Zeldas and GEoWs, you miss the point that this are all games which are very streamlined with a very basic way of interacting with the world - this is evident mostly in Bioware games, like Mass Effect which are extremely simplified compared to their older RPGs and their older interfaces. If you like games that are simple, streamlined, have few options and limited gameplay dynamics, YES, you can have good games, you can have your Zeldas and Marios and Halos. But the complex, dynamic games that game you so many gameplay elements and options that you became trully immersed in a world that felt real, are gone, and it IS because of consoles.

CONSOLITIS IS REAL! It is not something that we make up just to feel elite. We've played the games we consider superior, and we game now - do not try to dictate to us how e feel, especially when you did not have the same gaming experiences as we did!

Here's another fact:

FACT- The general audience of console gamers is different than the general audience of PC gamers. Again this is NOT just some arbitrary statement but is based on logical first principles. Because consoles ARE cheaper - or at least do not require any skill in buying around to be made as cheap, like PC - they tend to have a younger audience of people who do not have a steady job yet. Because they ARE played from the couch in your living room, they tend to attract people who like to play games with their friends, socially, and where each can participate. Both because of this second point, and the fact of the younger audience, the audience of consoles tends to be more focused on what's 'cool', flashy, fast paced, a thrill ride, something that you can play with your friends in the living room and go 'Wow dude, look at that, that's awesome', and can then go and talk about with your friends at school. The Thief games, I would say, are not exactly the sort of games you can go around boasting off at school, and I doubt any large crowd would gather around a PC for a social game of Thief.
PCs on the other hand, exactly because they can be more complicated to set up, and expensive unless you shop around, and exactly because you don't tend to game on them on a sofa in the living room, attract gamers who tend to be older, do not mind complicated tasks, and who place less emphasis on the social aspect of 'let's get together with friends and play this' - what attracts them in games is immersiveness, story, complexity, long and slow rather than short and fast (excuse the imagery).
When a developer moves a franchise to a console, the point being to capture a new audience, there is the pressure and desire to change the core dynamics to attract the new audience. More emphasis is placed on putting in 'cool' elements and short-lived thrill rides, rather than on extending the original nature of the game which defined the franchise on the PC. Look at for example how the Bioware RPGs changed from their older offerings to the new ones, look at Bioshock compared to System Shock, Deus Ex, Thief 1/2 compared to Thief 3 (I'm only mentioning big name games, rather than some of the great but more obscure old PC games).

Whenever people like to give to me examples of good games on consoles to 'prove' that gaming hasn't declined, its always inevitably the sort of game that is centred on gameplay dynamics that match the interface of consoles and the desires of their target audience - Half Life, Zelda, Mario, Bioshock, Mass Effect, Assasin's Creed etcetc. Yes its possible to have great non-complex games, but an entire, older, 'style' of gameplay, has died down, and it IS because of the switch to a console focus.

When Bioshock is portrayed as the example of a 'complex', 'immersive' game that can be done on consoles, and is thought by vast hordes of console gamers to be some sort of revolution in game design and experience, and game of the year material, it is exactly THEN that you realise just how little knowledge and experience of more complicated gaming console gamers have... Bioshock, one of the greatest disappointments, and out right BAD games I've ever played, is the game 'praised' by console gamers as some sort of revolutionary, immersive experience...


Do not patronise us by pretending to be superior in understanding because you like to be 'fair'. sometimes you have to recognise that LOGIC dictates that A is superior to B. A $5000 second-hand car, and a Ferrari will never be the equal in a driving experience. Yes you may argue that they are comparable when all the example of driving the two you give are of going 20kmh in the midday traffic, but in the example of full speed open road driving, one is clearly superior to the other. Similarly, enough with giving me examples of 'Half Life' and 'Gears of War' and 'Mass Effect' to show that PC Gaming and Console gaming are equivalent. Yes they can be as good as PCs in that style of gaming. But show me the equivalent of Deus Ex and Baldur's Gate style gaming done right on consoles, then we can talk.

MasterTaffer
14th Jun 2009, 17:12
I'm not going to waste much energy on you, because you've already made it abundantly clear with your "REALLY, REALLY annoying" remark that you wouldn't intend to have a civil conversation.

The majority of your post involves a subjective preference for PC games, which there isn't anything wrong with. If you like games on the PC, that's fine. My problem is generalizing console audience as "retard action junkies" like many people enjoy doing. It's the PC gamer's way of participating in the platform war and acting like just as big a douchebag as anyone crusading for the PS3, Xbox 360, or Wii.


CONSOLITIS IS REAL! It is not something that we make up just to feel elite. We've played the games we consider superior, and we game now - do not try to dictate to us how e feel, especially when you did not have the same gaming experiences as we did!


Statements like this are what make your points completely laughable. You say you don't make terms like this up to feel elite, but then immediately state that your previous game experiences are superior. Got news for you, it is just as retarded when and Xbox or PS fanboy argues their old line ups to another as it is when a PC gamer does it now. "Consolitis" is an eye of the beholder thing.

Just shut the hell up and play your games instead of dogging on other people. If games these days "suck" and are "inferior," then do what anyone else does when they don't like the current line up. Play your old games and wait for one you will enjoy. It's a goddamn entertainment medium, get over it. If someone doesn't like the movies being made these days, they can either ***** and ***** or they can go back and enjoy the classic movies they always have loved. Ifyou don't buy the games comign out, that's a message you can tell them.

Give a lengthy reply if you want, but I'm done.

Yotun
14th Jun 2009, 18:20
I'm not going to waste much energy on you, because you've already made it abundantly clear with your "REALLY, REALLY annoying" remark that you wouldn't intend to have a civil conversation.

The majority of your post involves a subjective preference for PC games, which there isn't anything wrong with. If you like games on the PC, that's fine. My problem is generalizing console audience as "retard action junkies" like many people enjoy doing. It's the PC gamer's way of participating in the platform war and acting like just as big a douchebag as anyone crusading for the PS3, Xbox 360, or Wii.



Statements like this are what make your points completely laughable. You say you don't make terms like this up to feel elite, but then immediately state that your previous game experiences are superior. Got news for you, it is just as retarded when and Xbox or PS fanboy argues their old line ups to another as it is when a PC gamer does it now. "Consolitis" is an eye of the beholder thing.

Just shut the hell up and play your games instead of dogging on other people. If games these days "suck" and are "inferior," then do what anyone else does when they don't like the current line up. Play your old games and wait for one you will enjoy. It's a goddamn entertainment medium, get over it. If someone doesn't like the movies being made these days, they can either ***** and ***** or they can go back and enjoy the classic movies they always have loved. Ifyou don't buy the games comign out, that's a message you can tell them.

Give a lengthy reply if you want, but I'm done.

I do play my old games and wait for new ones to hopefully come up. The problem is with retards who try to pretend they are 'clever' and 'balanced' and try to teach us how consoles can be just as successful as PCs in delivering specific game experiences, and that the quality of PC games hasn't declined.
Its not about being subjective - the FACT is that you used to be able to play both games of style A (deep, long, slow, complex) and style B (fast, simpler, streamlined). Being subjective means being having a different opinion on which style is better. Being objective and recognising reality is recognizing the fact that all franchises of style A are becoming style B, that there are less and less style A games being released, and those that do get released are still far inferior in terms of representing the style than older games, and that all the games the supposedly balanced console apologists present to us as recent examples of style A are really examples of style B.
In that PC games were predominantly style A and HAVE now become style B, they have been affected by consoles, and in that style A games no longer really exist, gaming in general HAS declined. In that PC gaming can 'usually' accommodate both style A and B games (though a few very limited genres are better on consoles), but consoles due to their limitations can only really give us style B, and for commercial reasons, this is reflected in pc gaming developments as well, which does not face the same limitations (limitations which I have explained in my previous post), consoles are both inferior, and ruining PC gaming.

ITS NOT ABOUT STATING THAT STYLE A IS BETTER THAN STYLE B!!!! CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT??? ITS NOT ABOUT TRYING TO GO INTO AN XBOX VS PS ARGUMENT! ITS ABOUT RECOGNISING THAT STYLE A NO LONGER EXISTS, THAT STYLE A HAS TURNED TO STYLE B BECAUSE OF CONSOLES, AND BECAUSE ALL THE GAMES WHO CLAIM TODAY TO BE DEEP AND COMPLEX AND NOT SIMPLE ADRENALINE RUSHES (I.E THOSE GAMES WHICH CLAIM I AM THEIR TARGET AUDIENCE AND THAT THEY ARE REPRESENTING STYLE A, ARE, TO A FAN OF THE STYLE WHO ALSO USED TO PLAY OLDER GAMES, INFERIOR AT WHAT THEY CLAIM TO DO!

So get off your high-horse, stop pretending you're somehow more sophisticated and more mature, and that you are somehow making more rational arguments, and cut the ******* bullcrap about my, or anybody's 'inability' to have a 'civil' conversation, when it is ******* YOU who come with a condescending *****y, high and mighty attitude to preach to people how 'wrong' they are without either having played the games they have or offering a single rational argument against what's being said, and pretending YOU don't insult people who disagree with you.

Hareton
14th Jun 2009, 20:32
This Master Taffer is master of twisting facts and making logical fallacies so it's pointless to disscuss with him, but your long post, Yotun, is well written and I'm saving it for future use.
Fact is that consoles screwed and lowered quality of PC gaming so we have full right to desire our legendary series to be dedicated to PC gamers - because we care about its' quality.

Hypevosa
14th Jun 2009, 20:48
What's the issue with just making it for PC, then downgrading the graphics for Xbox? I'm a console user primarily, but I want to play thief on my laptop (hoping to get a good alienware laptop before college starts again). Yeah the high end computers can play prettier and larger games, so what?

Consoles aren't the reason that games suffer, developers are along with investors. Investors want to make money, so they restrict developers, and developers bend to their will because they need the money. It's kind of like how the world is about 50 years behind technology wise because of the fact that wallstreet exists. Now you NEED to make a profit to appease your stockholders, which means you can't do risky research... sure it may be revolutionary if it works, but if it doesn't turn a profit you can't do it. The effect is really exponential because if technologies existed earlier, then finding new technologies would be quicker. But that's a different discussion.

Blame the investors and the developers for your beef with PC games suffering, not the fact that consoles are there for your average joe. Blame Eidos Montreal and it's investors if Thief 4 is plagued with inconsistencies and disappointment like TDS was, don't just point your finger at consoles.

EDIT: the source of all your problems is the success of the B games, because they get more business because more people enjoy B games than A games. It's like how there's the whole "Casual gaming will kill hardcore gaming" thing because there are more casual gamers out there, thus making investors want developers to make more casual games. Let's call casual games C games.

Population of A gamers < Population of B gamers < Population of C gamers

That's why investors want developers to make more B and C games, than A games.

K^2
14th Jun 2009, 21:39
Console hardware isn't a problem. If the engine is constructed from scratch to be easily portable between different platforms, you'll be able to tune it to make the most of every piece of hardware you port it to.

Problem is that there are "Console Gamers" and "PC Gamers". They are different audiences. You might be playing console games and not feel a need for simpler game experience, but the group as a whole does. If the game is made for the "PC Gamers" and is ported to console, it will be a full experience on every platform. If it is made for "Console Gamers", nothing is going to save that game.

It might be more fair to use "Hardcore" and "Casual" designations, but the problem with this is that we have a whole new sub-layer of casual gamers playing things like Wii Sports, so it's something different all together. Most of these "Console Gamers" play exclusively on consoles. Most of the "PC Gamers" play mostly on PC. Nothing wrong with consoles as a platform. They just tend to attract the wrong kind of players for some reason.

K^2
14th Jun 2009, 22:23
The gap is nowhere near that big. You can build a machine of performance surpassing PS3 or 360 and running same games for around $600 in US. PS3 costs about $400. Yeah, if you want a top-of-the-line build, it can easily set you back over $1500, but it's not fair to compare an already somewhat outdated console hardware with top of the line machines.

Platinumoxicity
14th Jun 2009, 22:42
Why don't you guys make a poll about it so that both the losing side and the winning side can shut up:

1.I have a PC and I think it is superior in every way.
2.I have a PC and I think it's better but costs more.
3.I have a PC but I think a console in superior in every way.
4.I have a PC but I think they're both equal in every way.
5.I have a PC but I think they're equal except PC costs more.
6.I have a PC but I think a console is superior for games.
7.I have a console and I think it is superior in every way, including the price.
8.I have a console and I think it's superior for games.
9.I have a console but I think a PC in superior in every way.
10.I have a console but I think they're both equal in every way.
11.I have a console but I think they're equal except PC costs more.
12.I hav comput0r but I warez all my games and save $!

Or if there are only 2 sides:
1.PC is better
2.Console is better

K^2
14th Jun 2009, 23:11
Considering the fact that idiots are often in the majority, I don't think a poll is a way to go.

Platinumoxicity
14th Jun 2009, 23:15
Considering the fact that idiots are often in the majority, I don't think a poll is a way to go.

What do you consider the majority? The reasonable see the unreasonable as idiots and idiots see the reasonable as unreasonable.

Hypevosa
14th Jun 2009, 23:23
Of all the parts of development this is the one we will have no say over... unless every single person who's ever been on this thief 4 forum, i.e. 200+ some odd people, all say that it needs to be PC only OR THEY WON'T BUY IT, then the investors will decree what the game should be developed for... and because of the fact that there are many more console gamers than PC gamers, it will be made for both. Why can't we just have faith that EM won't be stupid and make a poor game? There's no reason they can't make an indepth game that works on consoles and on PC... downgrading the graphics (by decreasing pixel count and/or using lower quality textures), NOT the gameplay is the decision they need to make.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
15th Jun 2009, 01:33
Basically, I think we can/should have a complex game and that it can/should be available for many platforms.


Here's something to get through your heads: I have an Xbox, I have an Xbox 360, I own tons of games for them, and I own practically all the so called 'revolutionary' games that came for these in the last 2 generations, that 'millions' of people bought apparently proving how good they are.

I too have many consoles, mostly old ones though. The newest console I have is a Wii. I buy and play a lot of games and while I do tend to automatically filter out the junk, I can say that I have bought games I normally wouldn't buy because of how popular they are. There have been a lot of popular disappointments for me, but the biggest confusion for me came from Halo. I heard that it was supposed to be the best game ever made and so on and so on. So I bought Halo and I gotta say it was mediocre. It was an average, run of the mill fps game. I saw absolutely nothing special about it. Then I heard how great Halo 2 was and that the multiplayer was to die for, so I bought that one too. Hated it, it was just another plain fps game. I played it online thinking it would be as great as people say it is, but it's not. It was merely average. So what is going on here? How are these average games so damn popular! Hype? Advertising? Can we make an actual great game and just hype and advertise the hell out of it to make it sell well?


Bioshock, Oblivion, Gears of War, Mass Effect, Fallout 3, its funny to see these used as examples of the great games of today...

This is pretty sad. Look at it this way though, console gaming is maturing. At some point we will all be able to have good, complex games. These games are popular because these people are sick of the even simpler crappier fps and rpg games they have available on their console. At least, I'd imagine that's why they are so popular. And a lot of those people do want more. I can't tell you how many times console gamers ask,"can I get that mod on my xbox/playstation?" Then they learn that they can't and they say they are going to get the pc version because of it.

How well did Morrowind sell on the XBOX? That game does have the same complex menus and gameplay that the pc version has, imo it works well enough. I have it on my xbox and pc. It must not have done very well because Oblivion and Fallout 3 were terribly 'streamlined'. To me, xbox Morrowind is the proof that console games don't have to be dumbed down and mediocre. Somebody get me some figures, I would love to know how it did. I know it must've done well enough to get the GOTY version.


Here's another thing:
FACT - Console controls are incapable of allowing for as complicated and intuitive an interface as mouse and keyboard...

This is true, but pc controls and interfaces can be made to work on a console. Just because a game has a lot of menus and keybindings doesn't mean it can't be made to work on a console. Morrowind worked good on the console. It was a pc to console port. Oblivion and Fallout 3 are just awful on the pc. They are console to pc ports. I think the biggest problem (as far as controls/interface is concerned) is that they don't bother making different controls and interfaces for different platforms. When I express hate for console games it's mostly because I hate using bad console controls and interfaces in my pc games. Consoles can make great use of 'circular menus' and such, but that crap doesn't work so well on the pc. It's just a matter of using what's best for each platform.

I believe the same game can be played on a pc and console. Worst case scenario, a flight sim. Yeah, I can see that working too! I can definitely see myself playing IL2 or Lock On with a console. They can have standardized joystick and config settings (there could be a 'standard' xbox joystick) or even a series of circular menus for the gamepad.

More complex games seem to be catching on in popularity on consoles. I don't see why somebody can't just make a complex game like, oh say... Thief 4, and port it to consoles. This way everybody is happy and I'd imagine it would still be popular without being dumbed down (small levels, loot glint, regenerating health, etc.). Thief 4 doesn't have to be a 'B' game and certainly not a 'C' game. I think it can be an 'A' game and still sell well on all platforms. Thief has fun gameplay and (imo) a 'winning formula'. It doesn't have to pretend to be a 'B' game just for sales. People should want to try different things.

I don't like blaming consoles for 'casual' or otherwise dumbed down games. It's just easy to do:p I blame people. The greedy people that make games and the fools that don't want a complex game. Surely there's enough of us 'real gamers' to warrant making complex games. Imagine a future where everything is basically Halo, Wii sports and puzzle games. UGH

By the way, pc gaming can be just as 'sociable' as using a console. It's just a matter of setting it up that way. I went through this before, maybe in another thread, I dunno, stuff gets moved around a lot in this forum.

ToMegaTherion
15th Jun 2009, 08:49
If you stop playing FPS games and play intellectually superior genres, then you barely have to worry about consolisation at all. Basically you just have to avoid Stormrise :p

Hypevosa
15th Jun 2009, 08:54
If you stop playing FPS games and play intellectually superior genres, then you barely have to worry about consolisation at all. Basically you just have to avoid Stormrise :p

Taking control of a person and seeing what they see does not make a game intellectually inferior... poor/simple game design, concept, and execution make a game intellectually inferior. Plus, I don't want my games intellectual, I want them entertaining, and that's all that matters.

ToMegaTherion
15th Jun 2009, 09:01
Sure, I just felt like deliberately stirring some ****. I just find it funny when people are complaining about console players being stupid. The complaints are almost always about genres that are not exactly pinnacles of intellectual endeavour on the PC either.

Hypevosa
15th Jun 2009, 09:06
Ever played painkiller? It's an absolutely mindless FPS, with a horrid plot, but god damn it's a game that sets you way back to before FPS's tried to get all serious with plots and storylines, instead of the good old therapeutic kill everything that moves plot.

WATCH THIS:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/57-Painkiller

The ***** extension gun is amazing.

And if you wanna watch the one about thief:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/544-Thief-The-Dark-Project

K^2
15th Jun 2009, 12:23
If you stop playing FPS games and play intellectually superior genres, then you barely have to worry about consolisation at all. Basically you just have to avoid Stormrise :p
That might have been true as recently as couple of years ago, but so many other genres are undergoing "consolization" that this really just isn't so.

Just about every genre out there is now being made for consoles. Console sales tend to drive the market. So these genres start to adjust to the console crowd. RPG has already fallen. RTS is hanging by a hair, and after Halo Wars, I'm sure that will fall apart as well. They are even going to release Monkey Island games for the 360. I want to see what happens with that until I pass judgement, but I just can't see it being a good thing. I mean, if they can "consolize" point-and-clicks, nothing is safe.

Simulation is probably the only genre that has a chance, but only because a dumbed down sim is no longer a sim. Still, the genre itself is taking serious hits every time something like HAWX hits the shelves. They can't change the genre, so they are burying it under piles of garbage.

Hypevosa
15th Jun 2009, 12:42
So, what exactly did "consolization" do to RPGs and RTSs? out of curiousity (be specific)

I still don't understand why people are blaming a gaming medium when they should all be intelligent enough to realize it's the developer's faults. It's like blaming HDTVs for why the new season of your favorite show sucks. The people who made the show are at fault, and not the thing through which it's viewed.

Hareton
15th Jun 2009, 16:19
Basically, I think we can/should have a complex game and that it can/should be available for many platforms.
good, complicated game [ ]
multiplatform game [ ]

Choose one.

ToMegaTherion
15th Jun 2009, 16:29
I nominate Morrowind for both.

Hareton
15th Jun 2009, 16:57
I understand Morrowind fans, but I can not omit the fact that because of the deficient engine (xbox), every time you entered dungeon/house/kennel, there was loading.

ToMegaTherion
15th Jun 2009, 17:08
Loading when changing area happens all the time in PC-only games as well. I recall Morrowind putting quite a lot of strain of PCs at the time. An Xbox would almost certainly have handled that game better than my computer at the time.

HellionKal
15th Jun 2009, 17:21
The leap from Morrowind to Oblivion could be cited as a perfect example of "consolitis" IMO.

Emphasis of the development being put into creating much much prettier graphics, removal of lots of skills or inclusion of a number of skills into a single skill (short sword, long sword, dagger etc all being put into a single "Blade" skill, for example), shallower quests, broken AI engine, unkillable NPCs, hand-holding objective compass, inventory/character sheet menu/map that was totally uncomfortable to work with in the PC version, dumbed-down and full-voiced dialogues (removing text-only dialogues entirely because full-voice is "kewl"), hiring famous actors to voice 1 or 2 characters but have a very limited number of other voice actors (thus having about 70% of the world end up sounding the same way and speaking the same lines), almost meaningless RP and choices (as in, your character class, guild affiliations, skills, choices in quests etc, have almost no effect whatsoever in the rest of the game world, so a Fighter character can end up as leader of the Thieves Guild, Fighters Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Mages Guild, you-name-it Guild simultaneously, without any in-game conflicts with other guilds, thus completely eliminating replay value)...

To name a few.

Heh, now that I think of it, Morrowind was also kinda dumbed-down in a few areas when compared to Daggerfall. Removal of lots of skills, much much shallower guilds system (the reputations system of Daggerfall is yet to be surpassed by modern games as far as I'm concerned)...

K^2
15th Jun 2009, 19:27
So, what exactly did "consolization" do to RPGs and RTSs? out of curiousity (be specific)

I still don't understand why people are blaming a gaming medium when they should all be intelligent enough to realize it's the developer's faults. It's like blaming HDTVs for why the new season of your favorite show sucks. The people who made the show are at fault, and not the thing through which it's viewed.
I'm not blaming the medium. I am blaming developers. It's just that the developers do it for the money. Money comes from console game sales. Consoles seem to attract a lot of mentally challenged people. And so the developers start making dumbed down games to make more money.

It takes a while to say all that, though. And since this process is associated with the growth of the console platforms, "consolization" seems like a nice term. Has nothing to do with the benefits or drawbacks of the platform itself. It's entirely possible to make good games for consoles, as has been demonstrated a number of times.

For examples of what's being done to RPG, look at Fallout 3. For an example of what's being done to RTS, look at Halo Wars.

ToMegaTherion
15th Jun 2009, 19:38
My friend, who's more into current RTS games right now, tells me that the newest C&C game is the best of the series, and that Sins of a Solar Empire is great too. Then there will be Starcraft 2 soon enough, chances are that will be at least good. He doesn't think there's anything to worry about. And then you get the cool niche stuff like Majesty 2.

For RPGs, the console influence is nothing compared with the evil influence of MMORPGs.

Hareton
15th Jun 2009, 20:28
For me Oblivion was huge improvement in the Elder Scrolls series because of better physics of items, developed thievery and radiant AI which at least tried to bring immersion in this game (but scripted Ultima 7 is still much better).

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
15th Jun 2009, 20:35
I'd say the leveled items and enemies alone made Oblivion absolute garbage.

Hellion put it all perfectly.



good, complicated game [ ]
multiplatform game [ ]

Choose one.

yea, Morrowind.



Heh, now that I think of it, Morrowind was also kinda dumbed-down in a few areas when compared to Daggerfall. Removal of lots of skills, much much shallower guilds system (the reputations system of Daggerfall is yet to be surpassed by modern games as far as I'm concerned)...

True, but Morrowind was still good. I can't imagine the series getting any dumber than Oblivion.

ToMegaTherion
15th Jun 2009, 21:26
Sometimes simplification is nothing other than the correct design decision.

Hypevosa
15th Jun 2009, 22:38
For examples of what's being done to RPG, look at Fallout 3. For an example of what's being done to RTS, look at Halo Wars.

That's why I said be specific, like WHAT about those games has degraded those kinds of games? I really consider Fallout 3 more of an FPS than an RPG...

K^2
15th Jun 2009, 23:37
The "more of an FPS" bit pretty much covers it. It's the action element. There are more and more "action" oriented games and fewer and fewer "thinking" games. The traditionally "thinking" genres have been diluted by the "action" so much that the few games that still hold on to traditional formulas are hardly sufficient to define the genre. What ten years ago would be called "FPS with elements of RPG" is today marketed as pure RPG.

And it'd be ok if some quality games in the pure genre would still be made, like it is still so with the simulations, but unfortunately, nobody with any kind of funding makes such games anymore, and amateur games usually only go so far.

Hypevosa
15th Jun 2009, 23:43
What do you feel about the new bioware games that they're developing? Their RPG's are amazing, and I'd say, a still pure form of RPG.

And how does halowars involve no thought at all? (actually I'll find out if that's right, I have it here next to my xbox anyways, haven't played it as of yet though).

ToMegaTherion
16th Jun 2009, 08:38
I think that the FPS style is a good approach for modern and futuristic RPGs, if they're solo rather than party-based.

The main challenge for traditional RPGs are the plethora of MMORPGs. A couple of games that Bethesda made (that are good fun anyway) doesn't constitute anywhere near as much of a challenge.

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 08:48
My friend and I were planning on making a first person MMORPG, along the lines of baldur's gate (as in it obeys DND rules and stuff)... It would just be awesome to have you and 4 other friends adventuring around, it would be sweet.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
16th Jun 2009, 23:59
Just wanna say that I hate mmo games. Time and money vampires, all of them. I find them to be boring, repetitive, and expensive. I thought Pirates of the Burning Sea would be cool, but no. It's the same ****, but with boats. That's what all these mmo games are like to me. 'The same ****, but with ____'(guns, boats, cars, anime, etc.).

Hypevosa
17th Jun 2009, 00:19
if you've ever played DnD, you know that there's no such thing as grinding, which is the common feature of most MMO's... you get experience for doing the fun stuff, ADVENTURING, questing, killing monsters... you progress by just playing the game, instead of having to mine a stupid rock for 5 hours. That would be the premise behind the game, is that it would be like a big dnd game, except there are visuals. MMO's do tend to be money and time vampires, but if they had less grind, you'd have alot of fun. That and we weren't planning on a monthly fee, because it was going to be over xbox live... The cool thing, is that the project natal would be perfect for it, and me and my friend were talking about how magic would work, and we wanted people to actually have the option to cast somatically (a good somatic caster could cast a spell faster than those who clicked a button or said a command word) and stuff like that.

Bono
17th Jun 2009, 10:26
I think some of you haven't yet read the wonderful text by Kieron Gillen on rockpapershotgun.com, called "The Making Of Thief: Deadly Shadows (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2007/09/21/making-of-thief-deadly-shadows/)". It's actually a very interesting talk by Jordan Thomas, lead designer of Thief 3 (he also worked on BioShock and now is the boss for BioShock 2; I think you guys at EM adore BioShock design, so you really have to listen to Jordan). The whole text is very interesting, but here are two particularly great fragments:

“As PC intelligentsia traditional systemic-design nerds, which is what we were, we found that the technical restraints of a console were relatively challenging,” Jordan answers, “On top of that, there was “Hey – how easy does this game have to be? At what level are we patronising?” For example, console gamers in general prefer a little more clear direction while PC gamers tend to prefer to be thrown into a playground and told “Hey – Go! Find the other side”. We constantly tried to find that sweet spot. I feel that Deadly Shadows is mostly mainly a PC game on the console… though you can’t truly please the hardcore PC fans with any form of compromise. From the very beginning, we tried hard to strike a balance so the more moderate PC fan and the more moderate console fan – the console player who doesn’t need crazy amounts of direction – would have a good time playing the game. It was definitely challenging. I think all of them have become better console developers having come through it, but it was a long road”.

...

Note that despite the lacklustre sales of Deadly Shadows, it isn’t necessarily the last we’ll ever see of Garrett. Maybe it just needs to be tailored to the needs of its more limited audience. ”I believe honestly that, in the long term, Thief will be better off as episodic content,” Jordan theorises, “Smaller release portions for a smaller, but very regular, audience. I’d love to see the series continue in that vein, but that’s very much up to the people who now own it”. This actually puts Thief:DS in the tradition of the Thief games. Thief, while not being the sales disaster as it’s occasionally painted, certainly never reached the mass audience, focusing on a real a real cult appeal. “They had exotic interests, and were looking for something new in terms of fiction as well as play experience,” Jordan describes Thief’s players, “Thief absolutely made a huge splash among that audience… but never got particularly larger than that. The console people, the guys who buy Splinter Cell, aren’t really interested in playing a Thief in a Medieval city. And that’s sad.”


I think it pretty much sums all up.

You guys have told us (I believe Mr. D'Astous did that) that with Thief 4 you're going to please both old and new audience. And here is Jordan Thomas, who actually tried to do the very same thing, tells you that this is NOT the way to make a Thief game.

Yeah, I know, we all live in the year 2009, and nobody (apart from Valve and Blizzard) makes PC-only games; Eidos is also aiming primarily at the console audience. But the fact is that, guys, the core fanbase is still here on PC. If you guys make impossible possible and create both Deus Ex 3 and Thief 4 great for both PC and console gamers, you will make history. But I'd say it is very easy to fail. Much easier than you think. You're trying to target two very different audiences that are ideologically different, I'm not sure you understand this clearly. And if you're focusing at console people only, you're going to fail even more miserably, because Thief and Deus Ex are not the games for the consoles. They just don't fit the consoles.

So you'd better not tell us about regenerating health and numbers in game logos, unless you really want us to die out of fear.

Nate
17th Jun 2009, 11:27
Here are some of my thoughts about the hardcore Thief fans and making Thi4f more in line with the original 2 games.

As hardcore fans, we are here! We are all willing to contribute our thoughts in this forum. We all want the best game possible (the vast majority of us think that would be something more in line with T1&2, rather than T3).

The hardcore fans will ALL buy their copies of the game....oddly, for taffing thieves, we wouldn't dream of not paying for our copies. However, the casual PC gamer might not be quite so willing to pay for this game....especially if it is only single player and cracks are made available.

The casual console type fan will have about as much interest in playing this game as they did for Thief Deadly Shadows. However, if the game is made more 'difficult' and in line with T1&2, it will still likely get about as many sales on the console (would be from a more sophisticated console player base though).

Anyway, I would be at a loss if Devs decided to abandon the hardcore fans and make Thi4f a dumbed down/consolized game that doesn't directly appeal to anyone. We can only hope that they take Mr.Thomas' words into consideration.

Hypevosa
17th Jun 2009, 11:57
You don't have to use the word consolized... just call it dumbed down, because that's all it is. Make the game as in depth as PC people want it and it's not like the console version is going to sit unbought on the shelves. If it's as good as the previous old PC versions, and at least average in terms of how pretty it is, it'll get good reviews... and that sells games. Put your best effort into it, don't slack off, and do your best to deliver a quality product that pleases us hardcore fans, and we'll also sell you games, because we'll tell our friends about it as well.

Platinumoxicity
17th Jun 2009, 12:15
Another idea how to avoid console-based compromises and problems: If you can't make a console version out of the PC version because of hardware limitations, make an awesome PC game, without thinking about any hardware restrictions, double the price to "cover for the losses" of the console version being left out, and we'll still buy it. At least I will, especially if it's designed solely for PC, because then I'll know that it's going to be incredible compared to TDS. Hype it up like there's no tomorrow and... *beep* ...profit! That's what happened to the PC-exclusive Crysis, and that's what will happen to Thief 4 if you hype it enough.

Or just make a bad console port afterwards. Some people are going to buy it, and when they see how bad it is compared to the PC version, they'll maybe buy that one too.

Bono
17th Jun 2009, 12:33
You don't have to use the word consolized... just call it dumbed down, because that's all it is. Make the game as in depth as PC people want it and it's not like the console version is going to sit unbought on the shelves. If it's as good as the previous old PC versions, and at least average in terms of how pretty it is, it'll get good reviews... and that sells games. Put your best effort into it, don't slack off, and do your best to deliver a quality product that pleases us hardcore fans, and we'll also sell you games, because we'll tell our friends about it as well.

I think you missed the point of what Jordan said. It's not the question of dumbing down or anything, it's ideological differences. We PC players like to play our games sitting in dark rooms at night, staring at the tiny details in the game worlds through our monitors. Console players boot up their machines in the afternoon, lay down on their sofas with gamepads in their hands, and start running around gunning and fighting. I personally can't imagine playing Thief on a console, with a gamepad, on a TV-screen standing three meters away from me. As much as I don't think there is a reason to play Street Fighter IV on my PC.

Myth
17th Jun 2009, 14:35
1. Being in Sales myself i can tell you guys that reviews can be bought, and the EIDOS marketing are not a bunch of freshmen, they know that.
2. There will always be people who download Torrents and play cracked versions of the game. Use StarForce or whatvever, use something like Steam - nothing will help. A determined gamer will disable his DVD, plug out his internet connection, do whatever he has to do. Just focus on the ones that WILL buy the game and not bohter with cracking, and don't make their life miserable.
3. PC is vastly supperior to console and not only because of hardware. You can keep the game alive much easier - realeasing bug fixes and patches, giving us an editor to make FMs, releasing new content or expansions etc. that can be downloaded.
4. The guys that lay down on their sofas and just want to shoot someone are not Thief players and never will be.
5. I think it's better to make the game for the PC and then focus on convertiing it to the consoles with their audience/limitations in mind.

vorob_
17th Jun 2009, 14:59
You can keep the game alive much easier - realeasing bug fixes and patches, giving us an editor to make FMs, releasing new content or expansions etc. that can be downloaded.

Well, we can see patches and expansions on consoles also. No problem with that. And its better (for eidos) to make downloadable content, for money.

BTW, as I remember, Deus Ex sold on PS2 better than on PC

Nothke
17th Jun 2009, 15:10
oh, why did somebody made the first CONSOLE at all! they will destroy the gaming world!

Bono
17th Jun 2009, 15:12
There will always be people who download Torrents and play cracked versions of the game. Use StarForce or whatvever, use something like Steam - nothing will help. A determined gamer will disable his DVD, plug out his internet connection, do whatever he has to do. Just focus on the ones that WILL buy the game and not bohter with cracking, and don't make their life miserable.

That's true. I think EA understood it with The Sims 3, which has no DRM whatsoever and was torrented thousands of times ans still tops the charts. Just make a high-quality game, and people will be buying it.


And its better (for eidos) to make downloadable content, for money.

If this happens I will throw myself out of the window.

ToMegaTherion
17th Jun 2009, 15:14
It would be better to have no DRM and just occasionally hire hitmen to take out pirates.

Platinumoxicity
17th Jun 2009, 15:21
The problem with DRM is that:
-A legitimate copy of a game with DRM costs money and the game won't necessarily even work on your computer because of the copy protection.
-A pirated illegal copy of a game with DRM is free and all the problems that DRM caused have been taken away by bypassing the copy protection.
=The people who download illegal copies of DRM protected games get instantly a better product for free.

The worst copy protection ever.

xDarknessFallsx
17th Jun 2009, 16:19
I'm a PC gamer at heart, but have a PS3. I hope EM breaks the console mold and recognizes that "if" they have to build Th4f for the next-gen consoles, that there are some people on the PS3 ("ME!") who wants a full-fledged PC title on it. Nothing dumbed down. Nothing made easier. No big bubbly graphics. No hand holding. No linearity. No shadow paths that tell me where to go. No loot glint. No arrow trails. Etc.

Make Th4f dark and sophisticated in EVERY respect. I am a sophisticated gamer (as are many Thief fans) who has played games since the Atari 2600 and before. I will probably buy the PC version AND the PS3 version, but I don't want to have the PC version suffer because of the PS3 version; and I want the PS3 version to be just as good and sophisticated as the PC version. Don't dumb it down.

I long for the day when more developers realize they don't need to dumb games down for consoles. After all, probably a fair number (?) of PC gamers now probably own next gen consoles, too. Just because I have a PS3, it doesn't mean I want dumbed-down versions of games. I want to play the PC version of games on my console. The console is just more convenient to turn on, pop a game in and play. For the PS3, please, no big fonts and glowing beacons of light telling you where to go to next. No big HUD. We can wear glasses if needed, and as a dedicated Thief fan and a PC gamer at heart, I'm prepared to do so for Th4f on the PC and PS3.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
17th Jun 2009, 17:23
That sounds cool but I do think mmo's in general suck. It's like they're all married to the same formula. In the end, I've yet to see a game worth 15USD a month. Not even games I've played for hundreds of hours. I want my initial purchase to be it. I don't mind buying an expansion, but I just hate a monthly fee because it makes me feel pressured to play the game as much as possible. Besides, I feel lame paying a monthly fee when a one time purchase can provide me with just as much, if not more, gaming.

Yes I have played DnD and it's a lot of fun! I don't have any friends who are into it anymore though. I wish somebody would make a good DnD game that can capture the fun I had with it. That isn't to say that the ones that are around are bad. Just not quite as fun as the real thing. Also, stat based rpg's are dying. It's all more and more actiony. I know I can't be the only one who loves the true feeling of progression that comes with stat based charactes.

ToMegaTherion
17th Jun 2009, 18:15
I and a couple of online friends sometimes play IM / IRC based d&d games, so if you wanna play some time Doomy, then chances are there will be a slot available (we have vague plans of a new game soon). Same offer applies to Hype. Chat based d&d is rather different from normal pen and paper, it must be said, but it's still good fun.

Nate
17th Jun 2009, 18:34
Exactly, they will get a lot of sales from console players who are TIRED of the same idiot fare most game companies make for them.

Hypevosa
17th Jun 2009, 19:44
"Hypevosa: I jump into the chasm! XD lol"
"DM: You're dead then..."
"Hypevosa: But I was just joking! :'("

lol Text removes all the voice inflections and would make it hard to discern playful banter from real things, unless we have to put a code phrase after everything we really want to do... For Pony!

Hypevosa
17th Jun 2009, 19:55
I enjoy just sitting on the couch and shooting people, but I love thief :'( Why do you all hate me?

I still say there's no excuse... calling it consolization or not, dumbing down a game is not acceptable when the game is SUPPOSED to be intricate. The game sold for it's intricacy, it was revered for it too, you don't remove one of the components that makes something great. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE STUPID, ALOT OF PEOPLE ALREADY FILL THAT POSITION.

Myth
17th Jun 2009, 20:11
The game sold for it's intricacy, it was revered for it too, you don't remove one of the components that makes something great. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE STUPID, ALOT OF PEOPLE ALREADY FILL THAT POSITION. quoted for justice!

fayfuya
18th Jun 2009, 04:25
If Thief 4 won't be also for the PC, i'm gonna suicide, the previous Thief games were for the PC, and so should be Thief 4!, and i can't understand this stupid idea of making ONLY for consoles, not all the people got enough money to buy a stupid console, nothing like a mouse & a keyboard.
If Thief 4 will be only for consoles i'm not gonna buy it, and i won't give any good comments at Thief 4.
Or any other Eidos game.

Hypevosa
18th Jun 2009, 05:30
if they dropped the pc they'd lose half or more of their revenue... they really can't be that stupid, they cant.

xDarknessFallsx
18th Jun 2009, 05:44
... Unless they're planning a "Pokemon Thief." (Oh, I can't believe I just said that. Don't get any ideas EM!) :D

Platinumoxicity
18th Jun 2009, 08:14
-Condemned: Criminal origins was a slightly consolited PC game that was also ported to console. It was all about fighting with hobos using all kinds of melee weapons.
-Condemned 2: Bloodshot was released only for X360 and they gave the main character guns, special moves and magic superpowers.

I'm sure that had nothing to do with hardware limitations.

Platinumoxicity
18th Jun 2009, 08:43
:(

Which one sold more?

I dunno, it would be reasonable that the sequel sold less because they didn't release a PC version.

BrendaEM
18th Jun 2009, 14:07
Oddly, I liked the back to the wall idea because it was an emmersive thing one would do in real life, perhaps it could be used again, but it's effect could be lowered somewhat.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
19th Jun 2009, 23:42
I have received several complaints from different members about some of the content in this thread, so it is my duty to respond and send out PMs.

I've caught up on the discussion and it is obvious that some need to express themselves a little better without insulting other taffers. Also, we all know the board uses censors for swearing but it isn't really necessary to fill your post with bad language either. I can definitely read a lot of intelligence and passion in replies, but when our eyes read insults or see lots of finger-wagging smilies, the mind naturally focuses on them, and not the important points you are trying to get across. Insults and swearing achieves nothing and only serves to spoil the opportunity to be heard.

When discussing, it might be useful to remember that T4 is most likely to be released on more than one platform. This means that there isn't really any point in getting personal about another member's preference. Instead, focus on the game and/or platform itself and not the player; we can all enjoy and learn from the discussion then. :)

theBlackman
20th Jun 2009, 00:22
Well said Viktoria.

huzi73
23rd Jun 2009, 13:39
I would like to make a casual observation.

When Thief: Deadly Shadows was released, it was released for PC and Xbox systems. The Xbox had already been out for years and pushed to its graphical maximum. The Xbox was not a great system, only a starting point to something better. Thief: Deadly Shadows was created near the end of Xbox and relatively close to the beginning of the Xbox 360. Literally, Thief: Deadly shadows came out one year before the release of the Xbox 360. The hardware in Xbox had not been upgraded since 2001, which means that three years of PC improvements had passed and the Xbox stood still. Naturally, Thief: Deadly Shadows was garbage on the Xbox and the PC version showed signs of the crummy console counterpart. I see your complaint, and I agree with it for the most part.

When it comes to the Xbox 360, you have some of the most graphically impressive titles to grace the gaming world. No, we have not seen Crysis on consoles, but we have seen Gears of War 2 and Call of Duty 4, both of which are amazing games. The Xbox was utterly incapable of creating an immersive experience due to its graphical limitations. The Xbox360 does not have this problem. I understand that the Xbox360 has been out for 4 years, which means PC's have improved that much, and the Xbox360 has not. We could potentially have the same problem we did with Thief: Deadly Shadows. I would argue that the Xbox360 is not graphically limited to the point where it will dampen your PC gameplay experience. The Xbox360 is a phenomenal piece of hardware (when it works).

The developers would actually make more money and a better game by hacking off you PC people and doing a straight console game that is well developed, such as Gears of War 2, and port the game over to you all later with graphical improvements. The market for the Xbox360 is much better than your market. People, including myself, prefer to play games on their 60" plasma televisions with 7.1 surround sound and 1080i.

Just because you think that you have to hack off "skillz" or whatever because PC's are more capable, does not mean that the PC is superior. The market rates superiority on accessibility, and the Xbox360 is a much more accessible platform. Just because we don't have a keyboard, does not mean that we don't have the ability to play at the same level as you. If you have not played a great FPS on the Xbox360 yet, I tell you it is a must. They are not limited in 3D ability. Puzzle-solving is the same. You would be silly to think that the PC is more capable of providing a 3D world in the sense of "using rope arrows to solve puzzles." I do agree the PC could provide larger worlds with less loading, but like I said, this does not mean that the masses will like it more.

I hope you understand that Eidos would be wise to make a straight console game that ports over to you all later. The Xbox360 has hardware capable of alleviating all of the complaints you listed above.

Good luck flaming me. I know that this is somehow going to be offensive to some of you. But remember what I said at the beginning, I acknowledge the PC is a better machine than a console. I am just remarking on the fact that consoles are not as limited now as they once were, and that companies will make more money if they develop straight console games that can be ported to PC gamers later on.

Well said. And btw im saying this as a hardcore pc fan.

But the point that thief 4 might have the same problem as TDS had due to being developed primarily for the console first still stands. Infact, now more than ever I fear that Thief4 will totally suck.The reason im saying this is because by th time its released, the new xbox should be almost ready.(ps3 fanboys are already saying the 360 has reached its hardware limit with gears of war 2 ).The simple solution for this,is to first develop the game for pc, and then dumb down/port it to the consoles.I dont understand why making a console version of a game is such an issue in the first place.(Bioshock was perfect on all 3 systems....)

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
23rd Jun 2009, 22:20
Yea, after reading that quote it seemed like we might see a 'history repeats itself' situation. If thief 4 were made for the 360 or ps3, it too would be years behind as TDS was wouldn't it? Make it for the pc and port it to the next round of consoles. I'm only saying that because 1. It should most definitely be made for pc and then ported to consoles. and 2. I assume the next round of consoles is just around the corner. besides, T4 might not be out for quite some time.

I feel like this needs emphasis, Thief 4 needs to be pc first. We don't want to play another console port. I'm totally ok with it being ported to consoles though.

btw, bioshock was not perfect on the pc. -imo

Hypevosa
24th Jun 2009, 02:52
I'm a console user, and probably won't have the rig to play thief for PC... but I was one of the first to say it, and agree with everyone else. It NEEDS to be made for PC and ported to console, and not the other way around. Downgrade polygon count, downgrade textures, streamline controls for gamepads, and whatever else is needed, but make it what it should be first - an intricate and fun playing game like the old ones... People will forgive graphics alot more than they will gameplay that betrays thief's roots, or is not fun.

Belboz
24th Jun 2009, 11:02
after doing some digging it looks like the crystal dynamics engine is an xbox engine, so the data will be done for the xbox, then ported over to other platforms, it might be the reason there arn't any screen shots for dx3 even though its been in production for 2 years, as in there wont be any screen shots until the pc port is done then they can make some.

CaptainObvious
24th Jun 2009, 11:05
There have been really good ports too, so being crossplatform isn't necessarily a bad thing, most companies are just too cheap for proper pc ports. Since it's most probably going to be Xbox-PC at least on the technical side of things there aren't going to be much problems.

K^2
24th Jun 2009, 13:05
after doing some digging it looks like the crystal dynamics engine is an xbox engine, so the data will be done for the xbox, then ported over to other platforms, it might be the reason there arn't any screen shots for dx3 even though its been in production for 2 years, as in there wont be any screen shots until the pc port is done then they can make some.
/facepalm

1) Crystal Dynamics engine runs on 360, PC, and PS3 already. It'd be difficult for me to play TR Underworld on my PC otherwise.

2) And how do you figure magazines get screenshots for XBox exclusive titles?

huzi73
24th Jun 2009, 14:26
There have been really good ports too, so being crossplatform isn't necessarily a bad thing, most companies are just too cheap for proper pc ports. Since it's most probably going to be Xbox-PC at least on the technical side of things there aren't going to be much problems.

True, look at gears of war, bioshock, oblivion, mass effect, dead spaceetc

As long as it doesnt go the way of GTA4, saints row 2, Mirrors edge etc,
we can all expect a good port anyway round...

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
26th Jun 2009, 10:42
Also, as long as it doesn't go the way of bioshock, oblivion, mass effect, dead space, etc. Haven't played 'gears' but I'll bet it's a bad port too. For the love of me, don't make this a lame console port. Me love you long time.

CaptainObvious
26th Jun 2009, 12:49
What's bad about Bioshock? I'm playing it right now and it doesn't strike me as a bad port at all.

catelee2u
28th Jun 2009, 05:03
Absolutely perfect post OP. Spot on.

Hypevosa
28th Jun 2009, 15:05
We can't fathom the specifics in terms of how advanced thief is, so we don't know if we'll need the latest tech to run it, or if it'll run on something from last decade, but what kind of computer will you run/hopefully run thief 4 on?

I'm hoping to run it on an area 51 m17x laptop, but if I can't manage to get that I can just hope it works as well on xbox as on PC, because there's no way my current laptop could do it justice (and even my old gaming rig is too far behind to do anything).

CaptainObvious
28th Jun 2009, 15:21
Most games coming out at the same time have roughly similar system requirements. I guess you could take the requirements of new game and extrapolate, I guess it'll be a bit higher than that but not that much.

Necros
28th Jun 2009, 16:26
http://i41.tinypic.com/2lm81as.jpg :D

Hopefully I'll have a good Core 2 Duo CPU, at least 3GB RAM and a good graphics card. So, the best rig that I can afford. :D

jermi
28th Jun 2009, 17:16
360. Case closed.

Nephthys
28th Jun 2009, 18:21
indeed.

Thieffanman
28th Jun 2009, 21:32
Hopefully a PS3, but I'm up for playing it on a laptop.

--Thieffanman

tarhiel
28th Jun 2009, 21:38
My laptop :) Nvidia Geforce 9600 512MB, 4GB, and CPU 7730. Hope T4 will run on it. I don´t expect to run full AA, but at least I wanna full details.

Hypevosa
29th Jun 2009, 00:42
What exactly does anti-aliasing do for graphics? I've tried to run games that have that slider, but it inevitably slows the computer down too much, or I can use so little I notice no difference.

K^2
29th Jun 2009, 01:00
What exactly does anti-aliasing do for graphics? I've tried to run games that have that slider, but it inevitably slows the computer down too much, or I can use so little I notice no difference.
Two things. First, it reduces the aliasing, but it's not as big of a problem with games these days, so you'd rarely notice. Second, it gets rid of jagged edges on the model boundary. The way it works is by running at 2x, 4x, etc higher resolution. So if you are running 2xAA in 1024x768, rendering is doen in 2048x1536. That's 4x more pixels to fill, which increases the memory requirements and increases the load on your card both de to increased fill rate and due to more fragments going through the fixed T&L or pixel shader pipeline.

If your choice is between AA and Anisotropic Filtering because your rig can't handle both, go with the later. It gives you a lot more while increasing the load approximately the same. Though, AF also increases memory requirement for textures because of anisotropic mip mapping.

Edit: Oh, yeah. I'm currently running a Q6600 with 2GB DDR2 (That will get upgraded to 4GB at least, I'm sure) and GF8800GT @512MB.

Hypevosa
29th Jun 2009, 01:03
Gotcha, thanks.

Lozza86-UK
29th Jun 2009, 01:09
I was looking at getting a good Alienware PC but they are pretty expensive. They look so nice though. Maybe I'll ask for a pay rise at work (no chance)