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Grimmy
11th May 2009, 17:32
I just thought about it, what would it be like and could we have some weather conditions in t4? Imagine a city covered with mist or a gloomy rainy night ( uh oh Garrett watch your step, this puddle looks splashy and deep xD ! ) or snow. Last night I was playing a FM and there was a cold storage with water arrows in it - imagine shooting a water arrow on a frosty day and making the guards slip :D ( sort of like the oil in t3 ) or just the beauty of frosting water. It could also be an advantage - freeze the door knob and then just knock it off :D woot :P

What do u think? Would this add to the atmosphere?

HellKittyDan
11th May 2009, 17:35
I wouldn't be against having to worry about leaving wet footprints.

Nate
11th May 2009, 17:36
Well, weather conditions could only be 'dynamic' within an open city setting. It would be hard to have present weather conditions in the city, carry over to a mission.

Although, that said, it would be AWESOME if you could do that.

Wait for a foggy night to tackle a hard mission that is giving you trouble (if fog or rain gave stealth bonuses). Of course, being wet could also work against you if you left wet footprints inside while sneaking around.

StalinsGhost
11th May 2009, 17:41
Weather would add a lot to the game really, atmospherically and on a game mechanics level.

Though I can imagine trying to walk around in a soggy coat giving yourself away would irritate after a while. Perhaps Garrett could buy an annarack from his fence to take off keeping his designer break 'n enteringwear dry.

Queue2
11th May 2009, 17:41
... Last night I was playing a FM and there was a cold storage with water arrows in it - imagine shooting a water arrow on a frosty day and making the guards slip :D ( sort of like the oil in t3 ) or just the beauty of frosting water. It could also be an advantage - freeze the door knob and then just knock it off :D woot :P

What do u think? Would this add to the atmosphere?

That'd be so sweet (and potentially hilarious!).

UrUkUs
11th May 2009, 17:59
I would like to run 2m in front of a guard in a foggy weather, without being noticed

I would like make noise and it won't be noticed if there is stormy weather.

I would like if guards would go alarmed, if they see dirty footprints at the floor, because of rain and dirty streets outside.

I would like if at cold weather, guards prefer to stay somewhere under roof and warm place, maybe warm their hands at a torch, instead patrol streets and freeze their asses off.

In general, i think dynamic weather wouldn't harm Thief 4!

Grimmy
11th May 2009, 18:00
Weather would add a lot to the game really, atmospherically and on a game mechanics level.

Though I can imagine trying to walk around in a soggy coat giving yourself away would irritate after a while. Perhaps Garrett could buy an annarack from his fence to take off keeping his designer break 'n enteringwear dry.

having soggy coat would mean ( if we follow realistic approach ) tht Garrett hs to wait a bit before entering any premises so that he won't leave a smear of water on the ground for the guards to follow into that room filled with precious :P. There would have to be some indicator showing your ..khem..wetness level :D :p . The advantages and disadvantages of weather conditions would have to be balanced as well. In example, not only ice will help you get rid of a guard for the moment you need to sneak into somewhere, but it will also mean that your hands are freezing ( yes, even in your gloves :P ) and it would take you more time to pick a lock! :)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th May 2009, 18:09
A decent weather system would definitely add to the atmosphere, yes: its very important. :thumb:
I want to hear the heavy rain pelting upon the lofty stone gargoyles as I look down on the city... oh, and so much more.
Seriously, if I went into full detail, I'd be writing pages and pages. :D

Icky6
11th May 2009, 18:20
Weather effects are extremely important. The Cetus Amicus level in Thief 2 would not be the same without the fog and rain. Incredibly atmospheric.

Nate
11th May 2009, 18:22
Yeah, but they would then need to decide just how detailed such a weather system would be. Some examples:
-does fog make you harder to see and muffle noise?
-does rain muffle noise, make climbing harder/more risky and make wet footprints that can alert guards?
-does lighting/thunder suppress noise, and lights up areas with flash that can expose you?
-does snow leave footprints that alert guards and that guards can track you by?

Crazyechidna
11th May 2009, 18:28
I think weather would be an awesome addition to the new thief game. Like someone mentioned earlier, if you are having a tough time on a city/outdoors mission, you can wait for a foggy or rainy night.

Furthermore, the weather conditions could affect what gear you could bring. Say for instance, you can outfit yourself before a mission. If it's rainy and primarily outdoors, you could put boots on for added traction. But if it's a still, clear night and outdoors, you'd want something more like moccasins for less noise.

If you can outfit, maybe there could be space in your pack and you can only put so much in the pack. If that were the case, you might choose to bring two sets of shoes -- one for the rainy outdoors, and slippers once you break into wherever.

DarthEnder
11th May 2009, 21:37
Weather effects would be awesome. Wet footprints? Fog? Ambient noise of rain? Yes yes yes.

Randomized weather though? No thanks. I want specific weather for specific missions.

okih
11th May 2009, 22:08
mmmm very interesting suggestion. i just hope that the developers don't get too preoccupied with the weather aspect or this game could turn into Weather Caster!™

Mshade
11th May 2009, 22:35
My favorite cutscene was the last one from the TDP. It was beautifully snowing and everything. Realistically you will only be playing during the night so the only type of weather is clear or cloudy, raining, or snowing. I really would like to see snow though. Perhaps the game could keep track of the date like in Oblivion and snow (unlike Oblivion) during the winter months.

randomtaffer
11th May 2009, 22:41
I'd like to see a really windy mission. One that effects the way AI and the player move about when they are outdoors. Staggering animations, crates blown over, signs banging against walls, etc.

randomtaffer
11th May 2009, 22:46
Weather effects would be awesome. Wet footprints? Fog? Ambient noise of rain? Yes yes yes.

Randomized weather though? No thanks. I want specific weather for specific missions.

I agree with you there. For at least the first time through.

Perhaps being able to choose the weather to challenge the player's play style after the mission is completed could add new challenges and overall re-playability to the game though.

Missions X
Difficulty: Expert
Weather: Stormy - (would not be unlocked until the player has completed the mission on the original intended weather)

Might be a neat idea.

Crypto
11th May 2009, 22:56
I'd also love to see rainy nights. They're a staple of film noir, and they'd fit in beautifully with the traditional Thief atmosphere (oh, is that a pun?).

Also, SNOW! SNOW, SNOW, SNOW. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGZA-KDy87Q) You cannot go wrong with snow.

Grimmy
11th May 2009, 23:10
Also, SNOW! SNOW, SNOW, SNOW. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGZA-KDy87Q) You cannot go wrong with snow.

Yes, and lots of footprints in it, now how do you cover these :eek: ? I say moss arrows xD

Unstoppable
11th May 2009, 23:17
There are some good ideas here. Dynamic weather and the effects it has on A.I. would be fun and interesting. It would definitely keep the game fresh.

GmanPro
12th May 2009, 02:19
I want to shoot water arrows in cold weather and watch guards slip on it when it freezes to smooth ice.

randomtaffer
12th May 2009, 03:57
I want to shoot water arrows in cold weather and watch guards slip on it when it freezes to smooth ice.

A nice idea. Do you think it should freeze instantly, or should there be some sort of delay?

HinDRAncE
12th May 2009, 04:15
And i want garret to go to the beach on a sunny day! thiefs gotta rest now and then ya know?


Seriously tho, real-life fog makes you hard to see, but sound carries farther away because sound propagates better in water than it does in air...so even guards couldn't see you, they would hear you more easily.

Real-life Rain muffles other sounds, but you ovbiously get wet and possibly leave footprints....however, how many of you can see wet footprints in the dark? Also, im sure it was a joke, but it would be unrealistic to cover up footprints with moss arrows...what kind of guard thinks: " humm...everything is calm here, no wet footprints from any thieves...just a bunch of moss that spontaneously grew on the carpet floor" Maby garret should be able to pick up and use a mop :D

randomtaffer
12th May 2009, 04:19
Moss should muffle sound on tile and metal grates, but it should alert guards if they see it. Perhaps they then fetch a servant to clean it up, or do it themselves. Or stick around the area to try and catch the mess maker.

Neb
12th May 2009, 04:34
Moss should muffle sound on tile and metal grates, but it should alert guards if they see it. Perhaps they then fetch a servant to clean it up, or do it themselves. Or stick around the area to try and catch the mess maker.

I was wondering about that, but I suspect it's something that you'd have to experience before you'd know whether it would definately work. It is kind of jarring that they don't notice, but if they did then it might end up being just as bad as leaving blood stains. I'm not sure. If the maid comes to clear it up then I'd so blackjack her. There's no chance anyone would clean up my strategically placed moss. :)

GmanPro
12th May 2009, 04:34
A nice idea. Do you think it should freeze instantly, or should there be some sort of delay?

Unless its magical somehow, then it would take a little while. But not that long. If its cold enough outside that water would freeze up pretty quickly, especially with a wind chill.

randomtaffer
12th May 2009, 04:36
Well, there's always the chance that the maid could clean it up while you're upstairs lifting jewels from the lady's pantie drawer.

randomtaffer
12th May 2009, 04:37
Unless its magical somehow, then it would take a little while. But not that long. If its cold enough outside that water would freeze up pretty quickly, especially with a wind chill.

True. I've seen spilled water freeze instantly on some of the cold winter days here.

Neb
12th May 2009, 04:37
Unless its magical somehow, then it would take a little while. But not that long. If its cold enough outside that water would freeze up pretty quickly, especially with a wind chill.

Or, dare I say, ice arrows? Since I can't think up any pretty good uses for them I'm not really serious.

randomtaffer
12th May 2009, 04:46
Or, dare I say, ice arrows? Since I can't think up any pretty good uses for them I'm not really serious.

I think the biggest problem with that would be the storage of them. Does Garrett carry around a mini fridge?

Perhaps you can pull crystals from frozen areas (like a freezer) and get ice arrows for a limited amount of time before they become water arrows...but then, that really doesn't make much sense, does it?

I know there were ice arrows in T2X. At least from what I can remember. You could shoot ice arrows at water to make little ice platforms to jump on.
(Am I just making stuff up here, or am I thinking of Zelda?)
I swear I remember doing it in T2X...

Neb
12th May 2009, 05:07
I know there were ice arrows in T2X. At least from what I can remember. You could shoot ice arrows at water to make little ice platforms to jump on.

Wow, I really can't remember that.

But yeah, I'm pretty sure that there isn't really any more useful equipment which can be added to a Thief game without seriously cluttering it up.

dogsolitude_uk
12th May 2009, 11:57
Snow?

Hmm...

That would increase your visibility (you'd get reflected light off the snow, plus it's white), whilst decreasing your sound and leaving footprints...

Jilly The Taffer
17th May 2009, 17:25
Weather would be a very nice addition to the game.

Random weather? Or will there be patterns?

- Clear and cold for a few days, then cloudy for the next, then foggy for the next, then rainy, then stormy.

- Clear and cool for a few days, then bright and warm for the next, then sunny with sudden summer showers.

Or, will there be seasons, which progress slowly through the Season Cycle throughout the whole game, or faster, maybe repeating the cycle two or three times until the end of the game.

DAY and NIGHT cycle <------- This is a must I think:

- We stick around in buildings, alleys and rooves on bright summer days, to avoid being seen. Then as usual, go anywhere at night.

- On darker days, foggy, winter, overcast, rain, we can go where he please, but the open streets are still rather risky. However, on these bad weather days, the City Watch can cease with patrols on some streets, preferring to stay in their outpost huts to keep warm and dry.
Which makes some streets easily accessable for Garrett.
Then, on bad weather nights, he can do as he pleases.

Yaphy
17th May 2009, 18:52
The weather can betray you to. If you run in a waterpuddle its going to splash. And just think how it will be when your standind in the shadows looking for the guards patrol routs. And then suddenly the shadows disapear for an instant when lightning strikes. A guard sees you, but the next second your hidden again. The guard might (1) think he just halucinated. (2) Think he saw something and start searching or (3) know he saw something and hunt you down.

Belboz
18th May 2009, 17:13
Well with lore Garrett would probably not leave footprints in snow when sneaking across it, like sholin monks are not supposed to leave footprints in rice paper when walking across it.

That would really spook the guards in game, they're following footprints across a snowy lawn when suddenly they abrutly stop.

Specter
18th May 2009, 17:26
Different weather? Yes. Dynamic? No. A mission isnt taking place over a long period of time, and the weather would not realistically change that much. Very subtle changes in the levels of precipitation would be welcome, such as moments of heavy rain, or moments where it stops all together.

I do not like the idea of water arrows freezing. Anything that can be compared to the oil flasks in TDS is not a positive. How exactly is making a guard fall on his ass beneficial to a thief?

Platinumoxicity
18th May 2009, 17:30
And then suddenly the shadows disapear for an instant when lightning strikes. A guard sees you, but the next second your hidden again. The guard might (1) think he just halucinated. (2) Think he saw something and start searching or (3) know he saw something and hunt you down.

Yeah, that was an awesome feature in "Calendra's Legacy - A Meeting with Basso" It amped up the tension because the mission was "ghost only" and you never knew when the lightning was going to strike, making you visible.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
18th May 2009, 17:53
Excitement! I would love to have a bunch of weather effects that affect gameplay. Great ideas in this thread. These kinds of things would add so much to the game.

SudisBetter
18th May 2009, 19:14
rain and mist good combination

Platinumoxicity
18th May 2009, 19:58
One thing that Ion Storm did right with T3 was that they left out rain. Yes RAIN. Oh my gawd, how horrible it would have looked if they'd even tried. If EM is going to make rain in T4, please, PLEASE make it look like rain.

This is what we still see in many games today, including STALKER, and Far Cry 2. A few raindrops on the foreground (The 5-10 metres in front of you) and some fog that makes the skyline of buildings or trees stick out of the dark sky as grey artifacts. When was the last time you've seen that happen in nature?

I have yet to come across a game that has made rain look good during the night. If someone has, tell me which game.

Left: How it should look like. Right: How it usually ends up looking like.
http://filesmelt.com/Imagehosting/pics/ce2c59e05af7818431f32ec8e63931b4.PNG
Sorry about the epic failness of MS Paint. :)

Caranfin
18th May 2009, 20:00
I agree with you there. For at least the first time through.

Perhaps being able to choose the weather to challenge the player's play style after the mission is completed could add new challenges and overall re-playability to the game though.

Missions X
Difficulty: Expert
Weather: Stormy - (would not be unlocked until the player has completed the mission on the original intended weather)

Might be a neat idea.
Yes. Might also expand on that by having some of the missions happen at a different time of the day, and include that as a choice after the game is complete. How that would work from a level design viewpoint, I have no idea. Might be a horrible mess to try to make a level work in all the weathers, let alone at noon instead of night.

WVI
18th May 2009, 20:21
Though I don't think it should be randomized, I could not agree more with this.

Yaphy
18th May 2009, 20:23
Is it to much if clouds could cover the moon and make everything slightly darker for like 20 seconds?

Yaphy
18th May 2009, 20:25
Is it to much if clouds could cover the moon and make everything slightly darker for about 20 seconds?

Caranfin
18th May 2009, 20:51
Is it to much if clouds could cover the moon and make everything slightly darker for about 20 seconds?
I think they have a feature like this in The Dark Mod. Can anyone with actual information confirm/deny?

xDarknessFallsx
19th May 2009, 04:24
I would like a "wind engine" built so wind blows through an outdoor level in a realistic way; making trees and leaves sway and blow around realistically. Sometimes ou can see gusts of wind moving in real life across the landscape. Similarly, it would do this across the Thief leve... across your view -- making pub signs sway, bushes rustle, or water ripple, or window shutters swaying, or/ You could set a level's wind to be around 5 MPH... or 10, 15 or 25 MPH. No hurricanes, of course, but it would be nice to have wind adding to the atmosphere more than games currently do. Rain or snow realistically driven by a wind 'engine' would be cool. As long as this doesn't get too gimmicky and waste too much of your time to implement, it could add a good amount to the atmosphere, imo.


I'd like to see a really windy mission. One that effects the way AI and the player move about when they are outdoors. Staggering animations, crates blown over, signs banging against walls, etc.
Yes, but this makes me fearful, unless it's a wind engine creating random events like this. As long as the crates blowing over is not a pre-scripted event that I see happening 'every' time I play the mission and in the same way and same place every time; or the same sign blowing in exactly the same way every time... then I think we're okay. Otherwise, if it's pre-scripted, it gets annoying.

WVI
19th May 2009, 04:32
Come to think of it, what about a really hot, sunny day, causing most of the guards to want to stay in the shade?

Granted, I can't imagine why or how there'd be a Thief mission during the day, but...

Terr
19th May 2009, 07:30
Weather effects either have to be constant, regularly repeating, or with ample warning.

If the moon is about to come out from behind a cloud when I'm in the middle of the courtyard, I want that to be something I can judge ahead of time by looking up, not some freak event. If the thunder-clash can cover a noise I'll make, I need to see the lightning always X.XX seconds ahead. If rain adds ambient noise but makes me leave puddles as I enter the mansion, it needs to be something I know will happen in advance.

Basically, don't screw over the player on a random or unpredictable basis. (In a multiplayer game, it's not such a big issue,but this is single player, and it's all about experience.)

Platinumoxicity
19th May 2009, 07:58
I really would want T4 to be the first game ever to do rain effects right. I don't mean that they should use all their time to make that happen, but seriously now. Rain effects haven't improved in games since 2002. Grand Theft Auto 3 made rain in a different style but it wasn't good either. It masked the skyline buildings and their illuminated windows in gray haze once again and it looked like a power outage in ConcreteVille. I mean really... Can it be that hard? I know it's almost impossible to make it work properly in a game that has day/night cycle, but in a game like thief where time stands still, they should be able to make some kind of a "Night rain shader".

Ishikawa
19th May 2009, 08:43
I'm definitely a fan of the Weather Effect idea, although i wouldn't do it with dynamic weather. Thief always run through a very limited time, even the open city parts were at a distinct time which simply isn't long enough for changing weather.

Although i definitely like the idea of having more difficult weather on higher difficulty settings. Just imagine a windy mission where you can't hit anything with your bow.

I'm not really a big fan of ice arrows they don't sit well with me, although the possibility to have some magical something that could freeze locks sounds nice, liquid nitrogen anyone?

The footprints in snow sounds interesting too, as well as the lightning illumination.

Beside that i totally agree that guards should notice moss arrows, well they should notice arrows period, i think i remember the guards in Thief 2 ignoring rope arrows for example.

Yaphy
19th May 2009, 08:44
In midnight club los angeles, the rain is rather good. The ground can be all dry when its start to rain. After about 15 seconds the grounds gett darker and puddles start to take form in some spots. The puddles are clear and reflect objekts like a mirror. It have som smal ripples in the puddles to.
I know, its a driving game. But do something like this and a little more details and it will work out rly good.

Platinumoxicity
19th May 2009, 09:14
Although i definitely like the idea of having more difficult weather on higher difficulty settings. Just imagine a windy mission where you can't hit anything with your bow.

I recently did an english presentation about stealth in school and I included the importance of weather in it, but the effects of wind are actually positive, not negative. In a windy autumn storm you couldn't possibly hear anyone sneaking up on you. Same thing with rain, but rain leaves your clothes and shoes wet and they can leave marks and wet shoeprints when you get inside.

Direlord
19th May 2009, 15:15
While i support some weather effects especially for the outdoor levels or if we have a city type area between missions. The idea of putting a lot of resources to make such a system when I would say the vast majority of the time you are playing you are inside a building and not caring if it's foggy or cloudy or whatever outside.

Platinumoxicity
19th May 2009, 15:37
While i support some weather effects especially for the outdoor levels or if we have a city type area between missions. The idea of putting a lot of resources to make such a system when I would say the vast majority of the time you are playing you are inside a building and not caring if it's foggy or cloudy or whatever outside.

I would just want to see the light shining out of windows and streetlamps reflect from the wet cobblestone in the street and ripple and refract through raindrops in the air. :)

Myth
19th May 2009, 16:39
I am all for a weather system in T4. I liked the rain and lightning in the widow' Moiraa mission in TDS, and loved the rain in some of the FMs for T2 i played. More weather - better immersion IMO>.

Smooogy
19th May 2009, 17:41
Weather adds to the atmosphere, and can definitely help create a paganistic surrounding if in the woods! I don't recall being able to play a level against the pagans when it rained, and also weather could introduce a new element in thief 4's stealth system... Mud and foot prints?

Would obviously be much more difficult to hide when you leave behind environmental traces that enemies can notice.

Platinumoxicity
19th May 2009, 18:31
Would obviously be much more difficult to hide when youleave behind environmental traces that enemies can notice.

...But on the other hand, the sound of rain would act as noise cover, hiding all the ruckus you're making. :)

Smooogy
19th May 2009, 18:34
...But on the other hand, the sound of rain would act as noise cover, hiding all the ruckus you're making. :)

Yup. Weather should affect the level itself. Take wind for example. A windy place would also deafen the guards, but would lead to shaking plants ( one of which you might have been hiding behind ) and then you're exposed! So cool ;)

GmanPro
19th May 2009, 18:34
Would obviously be much more difficult to hide when you leave behind environmental traces that enemies can notice.

Everyone else would leave behind muddy footprints too ... which complicates things from a programmer's point of view :hmm:

WVI
19th May 2009, 18:36
Well, it's solved by having the simple act of no guards on the inside going to the outside or vice-versa.

...Which complicates things a bit when they see footprints going outside. They might just yell outside for one of the guards to take care of it.

Yaphy
19th May 2009, 18:38
Make guards have "traces" of where theve been. Like muddy shoes and ankles. Change the colour of the guards cloths when theyre wet. The colour should be darker if its wet. It would be fun to look down at your shoes and see the mud and think like "oh noes, how will i get this mess of before i enter the building?".

Smooogy
19th May 2009, 18:40
Well, it's solved by having the simple act of no guards on the inside going to the outside or vice-versa.

...Which complicates things a bit when they see footprints going outside. They might just yell outside for one of the guards to take care of it.


Or... The way it would REALLY be done, is just program guards to avoid muddy spots when they're on patrol and not give a darn when they're chasing a thief. It's not rocket science

WVI
19th May 2009, 18:43
You're not actually thinking about this, are you? If they "don't give a darn" while chasing the thief, their shoes might get muddy. Unless they aren't programmed to carry mud, sooner or later, the issue might come up with multiple sets up footprints to follow.

Smooogy
19th May 2009, 18:45
You're not actually thinking about this, are you? If they "don't give a darn" while chasing the thief, their shoes might get muddy. Unless they aren't programmed to carry mud, sooner or later, the issue might come up with multiple sets up footprints to follow.

I'm not thinking about it? First I'll ignore your insult.

Yes their shoes can and will get muddy if they chase you outside and then lose you. I never said the case of multiple foot prints would never happen. Don't assume you know something when you don't. It makes you look stupid :eek:

Plus, don't tell me EM isn't capable of programming guards to wipe their feet.

WVI
19th May 2009, 18:48
Calm down, jeez. It was an innocuous rhetorical question.

What I'm talking about is subverting the problem entirely - making it so the situation will never come up. You're talking about how the behavior from guards would be handled, but that's not the concern.

Smooogy
19th May 2009, 18:51
QUOTE=WVI;997091]Calm down, jeez. It was an innocuous rhetorical question.

What I'm talking about is subverting the problem entirely - making it so the situation will never come up. You're talking about how the behavior from guards would be handled, but that's not the concern.[/QUOTE]

Then our opinions are simply different and we should respect each other's opinions. You should begin by not alluding that I was unable to comprehend your arguments in a derogatory manner. ( see I can use big words 2)
:rolleyes: I'm not angry with you in the least. You simply made yourself look foolish.

Anyway... I like the idea of muddy footprints. Some don't. Meh.

WVI
19th May 2009, 18:54
Let me explain myself better - I wasn't trying to suggest that you were dumb, just reading into this wrong. There's two questions regarding this setup -

1. How would the guards respond to the environment and player in such a design?
2. How would we overcome the possibility of multiple sets of footprints?

You're talking about the former. I'm talking about the latter. They are interactive issues, but distinct.

Smooogy
19th May 2009, 18:55
Let me explain myself better - I wasn't trying to suggest that you were dumb, just reading into this wrong. There's two questions regarding this setup -

1. How would the guards respond to the environment and player in such a design?
2. How would we overcome the possibility of multiple sets of footprints?

You're talking about the former. I'm talking about the latter. They are interactive issues, but distinct.

Okay, got it... :rolleyes:

Vladimyre
19th May 2009, 18:56
Me thinks, VIKTORIA was an english major :D


A decent weather system would definitely add to the atmosphere, yes: its very important. :thumb:
I want to hear the heavy rain pelting upon the lofty stone gargoyles as I look down on the city... oh, and so much more.
Seriously, if I went into full detail, I'd be writing pages and pages. :D

WVI
19th May 2009, 18:58
English major? Even I know when to apostrophize "it's". <_<; [/jerk]

But poetic? Certainly!

Incidentally, I'd be really interested in reading those "pages and pages" of detail. I mean that, too - Give Eidos Montreal some design inspiration.

Smooogy
19th May 2009, 18:59
You should read her arguments for Viktoria's return in the game. Man, she came up with a druidic masterpiece

lot9h
20th May 2009, 14:40
Right, throwing some ideas out here.

Wind may be difficult to do dynamically, but there shouldn't be anything too hard about making it windier at different levels. The roof-walking which was some of the best bits of the previous games should be plagued with intermittant wind problems. Waiting for it to die down to cross narrow ledges or getting slowly pushed to one side. Worse at higher levels with shorter gaps between gusts forcing faster movement.

For wet shoes, well... we have been through somewhat of a technological revolution in the second game. How about heating elements that light up like those annoying childrens trainers to dry the shoes? It would mean you'd have to be careful where you do it or attract attention. I probably like this idea more than I should. It might ruin the atmosphere somewhat.

Water arrows not to create ice patches but to "heal" snow footprints just like bloody ones.

I do like the clouded moon idea, on a regular but slightly random timing.

Platinumoxicity
20th May 2009, 18:05
Wind may be difficult to do dynamically, but...

They had dynamic wind in Far Cry 2 beta but most of it's features were cut from the final game because the developers were selfish, evil, little meanies. :mad:

When the wind got stronger, dust and leaves started flying around and when it became a real storm, the wind could throw around tree branches and other heavy stuff. It could also affect what direction fire is spreading to. All of that was cut and in the final version the wind just makes the trees sway.
0:37 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMAqTXCd1Sg

Maethius
20th May 2009, 18:17
If the world had truly dynamic weather, it could really affect the way people write a walk-through, wouldn't it?

"If it's foggy, don't worry about the window on the second floor, but if it's clear, you need to mantle under it... If it's raining, you can't mantle, so just run as fast as you can, but avoid the puddles..."

Everyone remember T2's Thieves' Highway en route to Angelwatch? There were opportunities to loot through open windows along the way because it was a very hot night. That same mission, played on a colder day, would have locked windows rather than open ones.

OH, and would Children of Karras suffer at all in a downpour?

Fiddlesticks
22nd May 2009, 16:47
Rain and Thunderstorms add a lot to the athmosphere, which is very important in Thief!

xDarknessFallsx
23rd May 2009, 05:41
Ohhhh Fiddlesticks!

(sorry, just had to say it) ;)

Mikkowl
23rd May 2009, 15:33
Don't need dynamic weather. But certainly variation of weather between missions or parts of them is a nice idea.

Nate
25th May 2009, 02:09
The mission in Thief DS where you steal from Lady Moria's mansion incorporated lightning very well. There were a couple of places in that mission where you had to be VERY mindful of being exposed by lighting flashes.

Knight
6th Jun 2009, 21:13
Every mission/day other wetter. (Rainy 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Sunny)

lefty
7th Jun 2009, 00:04
Someone said they liked the idea of weather effects, but not dynamic. I believe the reasoning behind this was to know exactly what equipment to bring with you on a mission. However, what if there was a middle ground between dynamic weather and specific weather for a level. I'm thinking, if there is a kind of free-roam type play in the city in between missions, the weather would be dynamic. But whatever the weather is like when you choose to start a mission, the weather will remain so while you choose your equipment and play the mission.

For example, it starts raining right before you prepare to infiltrate a large mansion- you'd want to grab your boots/poncho/whatever, avoid the puddles on the way over to not splash, get on the roof, ditch the poncho and sneak in through a window. Then you would use a nearby lantern or fire arrow to evaporate your footprints and the water on the sill and proceed from there.

For snow, You'd want to stick to rooftops and alleys to avoid leaving footprints in the snow. Someone said lockpicking would be more difficult because your hands would be cold, I liked that idea. Etc. etc.

Inspector Drept
7th Jun 2009, 01:18
The mission in Thief DS where you steal from Lady Moria's mansion incorporated lightning very well. There were a couple of places in that mission where you had to be VERY mindful of being exposed by lighting flashes.

Yes, I remember that room with the glass window.
The lightning would strike down and suddenly your gem was shining.
That was cool, suddenly being in the shadows wasn´t a safe spot for resting.

Platinumoxicity
7th Jun 2009, 09:56
The mission in Thief DS where you steal from Lady Moria's mansion incorporated lightning very well. There were a couple of places in that mission where you had to be VERY mindful of being exposed by lighting flashes.

It's a shame that the lightning struck only when you were in that one room. There wasn't any thunder when you went back outside the house. :( Also, no rain.

Shadow Blade
7th Jun 2009, 10:06
I like the weather idea maybe when theres foggy weather it makes you harder to see. Imagin having to do a graveyard level where your line of sight is drastically reduced because of the fog and there are zombies and hammer haunts wondering around and you can only see them properly when they are practically a meter or less from you.

Yaphy
7th Jun 2009, 16:19
Someone said they liked the idea of weather effects, but not dynamic. I believe the reasoning behind this was to know exactly what equipment to bring with you on a mission. However, what if there was a middle ground between dynamic weather and specific weather for a level. I'm thinking, if there is a kind of free-roam type play in the city in between missions, the weather would be dynamic. But whatever the weather is like when you choose to start a mission, the weather will remain so while you choose your equipment and play the mission.

For example, it starts raining right before you prepare to infiltrate a large mansion- you'd want to grab your boots/poncho/whatever, avoid the puddles on the way over to not splash, get on the roof, ditch the poncho and sneak in through a window. Then you would use a nearby lantern or fire arrow to evaporate your footprints and the water on the sill and proceed from there.

For snow, You'd want to stick to rooftops and alleys to avoid leaving footprints in the snow. Someone said lockpicking would be more difficult because your hands would be cold, I liked that idea. Etc. etc.

Yes! I like it. Snow also crunch when you walk on it. Lots of noicies there. Ice should be slippery, if you walk on it, it will take some time to get momentum. And when you stop, it will take some moments more to stop.
And what if you could see small breath gusts from other people when its cold in the air. (and se Garretts breath, or is it in the way of your vision?)

lefty
7th Jun 2009, 17:41
Yes! I like it. Snow also crunch when you walk on it. Lots of noicies there. Ice should be slippery, if you walk on it, it will take some time to get momentum. And when you stop, it will take some moments more to stop.
And what if you could see small breath gusts from other people when its cold in the air. (and se Garretts breath, or is it in the way of your vision?)

I like the breath, but would it only be in snow? It can easily get cold enough to see your breath when it's raining too, but if your breath was in your face every time you walked outside, it may get irritating.

right! I forgot snow makes noise. So even on the rooftops you could potentially be heard. Also if you're on a sloped roof covered in ice, it may be impossible to cross without sliding to the ground, and hoping no one notices. Plus, garrett's usual black clothing would not be as helpful against a white snowy background.

jtr7
7th Jun 2009, 18:54
All four seasons, please, with variations as seen in each season, but only when it adds to a mission's atmosphere, but even then it could be subtle.

Yaphy
7th Jun 2009, 19:00
What if you only see your breath when you look down on the body. Funny if the guards have a slightly chance to slip when they run on ice. The water will also freeze, so no swimming in winters (it would be to cold anyway).

dequalinium
28th Jun 2009, 15:27
To add more atmosphere and enhance some tactics the use of weather could be added.
for example:

1) Small shower: light rain effects, some cloud cover, light wind. some npc's around.

2) heavy downfall: heavier rain (makes more noise - on different surfaces) lots of clouds and stronger wind effects (shop signs squeak, window shutters clatter). few npc's around.

3) Severe Thunderstorm: rain pelting down (lots of noise), really black clouds and hurricane wind effects (things really being blown around). only guards on streets and they're under cover. climbing skills reduced (due to being wet)

These could be both night or day events.

Also, Snow effects:

1) light flurry of snow: vision slightly reduced, sound slightly muffled.

2) heavy snowfall: vision distance reduced more, enviroment turned white, sounds more muffled. footprints in snow.

3) Snowstorm: vision greatly reduced. wind effects increased. climbing skills reduced. Some interactive objects covered in snow. :)

Anyway, just some of my thoughts of how to make it seem more realistic and to add a different tactic for the thief char and npc's

CaptainObvious
28th Jun 2009, 15:31
The old games already had some weather effects, at least rain, but I don't know if they have any effect on AI behavior, would be cool to see NPC's seek shelter when the weather is bad and things like that. It really depends on how often it's going to be used, if it's seldomly applied you could probably just script things.

FriendlyStranger
28th Jun 2009, 15:42
Yeah the return of weather effects and especially snow and ice would be an important feature to return! I had almost forgotten that even in this respect T2 was superior to it's time. Especially since TDS didn't have rain.

CaptainObvious
28th Jun 2009, 15:45
Eh, TDS had rain, mate.

FriendlyStranger
28th Jun 2009, 15:47
Eh, TDS had rain, mate.

Wow never noticed that. In which levels/missions?

CaptainObvious
28th Jun 2009, 15:49
I rained occasionally in the cityscape and at least the mission where you went to the island and broke into that captains house also had rain(and a lightning storm to boot, imagine that)

check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CJ0fn5LnI0

I guess it's worse rain than in T2 though, for [insert obscure complaint]:rasp:

FriendlyStranger
28th Jun 2009, 15:54
I rained occasionally in the cityscape and at least the mission where you went to the island and broke into that captains house also had rain(and a lightning storm to boot, imagine that)

check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CJ0fn5LnI0

I guess it's worse rain than in T2 though, for [insert obscure complaint]:rasp:

Uhmm don't the comments suggest this is a mod? Maybe I had turned it off, I don't remember. Nontheless at topic, I would like T4 to have weather effects.

CaptainObvious
28th Jun 2009, 15:57
Well I have it on my computer too, and also have rain, and I don't remember installing a mod, It happens really seldomly though. Maybe I forgot about it but I don't think I have a mod on my install.

FriendlyStranger
28th Jun 2009, 16:00
Well I have it on my computer too, and also have rain, and I don't remember installing a mod, It happens really seldomly though. Maybe I forgot about it but I don't think I have a mod on my install.

Cool I don't know, I only played it through once then put it aside because I hate(d) it. But thx for the info.

Platinumoxicity
28th Jun 2009, 18:47
There should also be heavy wind that makes the trees sway, leaves fly and lanterns and shop signs swing. The wind would make so much noise that you could sneak up on anyone and no-one would hear. Also, heavy wind makes wooden houses creak and squeak. It would make the clouds fly faster and sometimes expose the moon, making the scenery brighter. In the docks, waves could get higher and hit the quays, gushing water on it. And... For nostalgia's sake, a familiar sound of wind chimes outside a small shop called "Looking Glass Studios" :)

FriendlyStranger
28th Jun 2009, 18:51
There should also be heavy wind that makes the trees sway, leaves fly and lanterns and shop signs swing. The wind would make so much noise that you could sneak up on anyone and no-one would hear. Also, heavy wind makes wooden houses creak and squeak. It would make the clouds fly faster and sometimes expose the moon, making the scenery brighter. In the docks, waves could get higher and hit the quays, gushing water on it. And... For nostalgia's sake, a familiar sound of wind chimes outside a small shop called "Looking Glass Studios" :)

I love the idea of clouds shrouding the moonlight and therefore altering the scenery brightness. That could be intergrated pretty cool into gameplay. n1

jtr7
28th Jun 2009, 19:47
.......................

Moosemoose
10th Aug 2009, 00:16
Everyone seems to be talking about realism fitting into the Thief world. We've though of the day night cycles, more realistic horizons, more realistic rain etc. Surprisingly no-one has though of... the seasons? Unless the City is located quite close to the equator, which as far as I can tell is not true, it has to have winter sometime... It would make for very stunning visuals in Thi4f to have say a winter level with 1ft of snow. It would also make for interesting scenarios such as having the guards follow a certain set of footprints into the shadows, only to get knocked out. There could be one level with a blizzard which would obscure who is coming down the street. once this is over, the snow would melt within a day or so and you could go back to the normal climate of the City. Or if you didn't want it to be winter, because it would take too long to get back to the normal climate, there could be say a freak blizzard for the first half of a level, and then just the snow melting for the next day.

Now what is the opposite of cold and snow?, heat and fire! We know from the history behind the game that the City is just one of many cities that are at war. Before you explode, no I do not want any more cities coming into the game as it would either take way to long, ruin the story, or just have a poor design with way too many flaws. But what if another city's army was attacking the walls while Garrett was passing through. Flaming Arrows anyone? Maybe a burning house or two with some of the guards trying to put it out, and the rest fending off the attackers. And just to add a twist to the story, maybe one of the factions was behind this attack and gets found out by the City Guard and they have to sneak around just like you do.

Comments?

ZylonBane
10th Aug 2009, 00:23
Comments?
It is extremely unlikely that the game's plot will span a period of time sufficiently long for seasons to change. If memory serves, the plot of all three prior Thief games took place over less than a month.

jtr7
10th Aug 2009, 00:26
We've talked about the weather and weather effects.


I don't think we will see squalls and driving winds for many years, though the coastal City with four seasons would have such things. Lightning strikes, not just sheet lightning effects. Our arrows would have to ignore the wind (like everything does already, but especially strong winds and sudden gusts). Heavy wind and rain could add a sound masking for AIs to not hear Garrett, but would make it harder for the player to hear them. A gentle snow would be nice, and a return of visible rain, falling leaves, signs and shutters that swing, squeak, and clatter, not just sway lightly for no reason. Flags and banners (it would be an animation loop).


ZB: Both earlier titles spanned months to a year. TDS spanned nine days.

minus0ne
10th Aug 2009, 03:34
It would be nice to have sophisticated weather effects, although it should be anything but random. Thief 4 isn't Oblivion, either. I do believe it should be more than an afterthought, though; for example, I'd like to see a return of the fog in certain places (volumetric would be nice) which impacts visibility (obviously).

Rain could wash away blood (after all, it'd be weird if a downpour of rain can't do what your humble water arrow does) but also reduce the likelihood of guards being alerted by your footsteps (which should sound differently to walking on dry surfaces). Perhaps you can even time your unavoidable loud noises to coincide with the sound of a lightning strike, well, here and there.

jtr7
10th Aug 2009, 03:39
Nice suggestions! :thumb:

minus0ne
10th Aug 2009, 03:55
Nice suggestions! :thumb:
Thanks!

OT: Practically at 2000 posts :eek: Spare your fingers a bit, you'll need them for playing Thief 4 (well, assuming it won't be controlled by Natal or WiiMote) :p

jtr7
10th Aug 2009, 04:23
Whoa! I hadn't noticed. It's climbing fast. If I liked high scores in modern action/adventure games, I'd be on my way. Last I looked I think it was a little below 500.

ZylonBane
10th Aug 2009, 05:02
ZB: Both earlier titles spanned months to a year.
Oh really. How do you figure?

jtr7
10th Aug 2009, 05:12
Dev comments. In-game seasonal cues, spoken and written fiction, and the movies. Two weeks transpire between Casing and Masks, for instance (with a bonus lunar eclipse making an appearance. Not that I expect the moon phases to matter any other time).

fayfuya
12th Aug 2009, 23:40
That's a very good idea! weather, day & night, that's cool

Secondary
31st Aug 2009, 16:21
definitely a good idea, personally i would like to see alot of rain and fog in the City.

snow would be pretty cool, if the plot spanned a long period of time it would be cool for the seasons to change and reflect this.

Platinumoxicity
31st Aug 2009, 19:02
No dynamic night-day cycle.

Semi-dynamic time lapse (Like in Crysis) Moving on the level triggers sunset that pretty quickly changes the time to night. The rest of the mission takes place during the night.

Completing the final objective before escaping triggers something similar, making the outside seem like dawn is approaching, early morning mist, recent snowfall, sudden rain... etc.

Thunder and lightning can be experienced in more than just 1 room in the entire game. (Or actually the entire series) Rainfall can be heard inside more, not only when you're standing in the rain outside. Rain also muffles sounds effectively.

Heavy winds make leaves fly around and wooden buildings creak. Heavy wind muffles sounds very effectively. You need to time your movement on noisy surfaces to the moments when the wind blows.

The waves of the ocean during a storm cover every noise completely in the docks, excluding loud explosions.

Opening doors that lead to heavily snowy outside areas leave marks in the snow. Also, mind your footprints.

Yaphy
31st Aug 2009, 19:33
The fog would flow down to the lowest ground. If Garrett walks on ice it could take about 1/10 second delay to get to max speed and 1/10 second to stop. If the snow is deep Garrett shouldnt be able to run as fast as normal. This would be the same for other people to.

Hopeless
31st Aug 2009, 22:45
If they're going for a more open world feel, then I'd really rather not have weather influence game play. I mean, I would hate to think to myself "well I'd like to move on to the next mission, but it's raining and the guards would find my wet footsteps. I'll go entertain myself for a bit before I get back to playing a game that's designed to entertain me."

If weather is implemented and does affect gameplay, then do it mission by mission and not have it carry over from an open world.

Platinumoxicity
1st Sep 2009, 12:06
If they're going for a more open world feel, then I'd really rather not have weather influence game play. I mean, I would hate to think to myself "well I'd like to move on to the next mission, but it's raining and the guards would find my wet footsteps. I'll go entertain myself for a bit before I get back to playing a game that's designed to entertain me."

If weather is implemented and does affect gameplay, then do it mission by mission and not have it carry over from an open world.

The open world is a worthless addition. It makes the City seem smaller. Also, looking back at all games in history that have had fully dynamic weather systems, good lighting and dynamic weather are incompatible. In a game like Thief, where the lighting is the most important visual aspect, dynamic weather simply can't be implemented. Judging from the amount of games that have had dynamic weather, and have failed completely with the lighting, it must be impossible to get both working properly. That, or the devs have spent so much time indoors that they've forgotten what the world looks like.
http://old.filesmelt.com/Imagehosting/pics/cf8b89239405a0c2bcd39fcebe013fd2.PNG

If there are only separate missions, they can have different weather, and it's not for you to choose whether you want to go to the next mission when it's raining or not. You just have to change your tactics according to the circumstances like you always do in Thief.

Davehall380
1st Sep 2009, 15:22
If implemented well and balanced, weather could have a massive impact on the level. Since most of the action takes place indoors in the previous games, this would take place in alot of the build up and approach aspects of the game. Slippy ledges, masked sound from the rain, footsteps in the snow, all could have a part to play. Timing a kill with the lightening could provide an interesting aspect aswell (think shawshank redemption).

Secondary
1st Sep 2009, 15:45
The open world is a worthless addition. It makes the City seem smaller. Also, looking back at all games in history that have had fully dynamic weather systems, good lighting and dynamic weather are incompatible. In a game like Thief, where the lighting is the most important visual aspect, dynamic weather simply can't be implemented. Judging from the amount of games that have had dynamic weather, and have failed completely with the lighting, it must be impossible to get both working properly. That, or the devs have spent so much time indoors that they've forgotten what the world looks like. If there are only separate missions, they can have different weather, and it's not for you to choose whether you want to go to the next mission when it's raining or not. You just have to change your tactics according to the circumstances like you always do in Thief.

well its not impossible to include both, but difficult becuase they are so often extensions of the same aspect. the problem with including a good day night/weather cycle and good lighting is that the weather and time of day affect the lighting, in order to do this realistically you either need to simulate an actual sun (not really an option) or dedicate alot of computing power (which takes alot of memory). its certainly possible, just very difficult and more than a little expensive.

howver for theif you wouldnt really have this problem becuase the time of day never really changes all that much, in the past, and hopefully in the future, Thief games haeve been nocturnal. weather by itslef doesnt unblanace the lighting as much as a day/night cycle does. so as long as the devs do their best, i think it should be ok.


you do raise a very good point though, in saying that most games trying this so far, have fallen a tad short of par. truly dynamic (meaning both weather, and day/night) weather and stealth games dont really mix too well yet

Davehall380
1st Sep 2009, 15:54
If you include a day/night cycle in the mission, it introduces the element of time to the game. This in it self will force the player to act with expediancy - before its gets light again. One of the great aspects of Thief is biding your time. Removing this option would be a step back in my opinion. Dont make it to realistic, keep the night missions as night. If you start a mission in sunset, it becomes dark, then you would expect the sun to come back up.

Secondary
1st Sep 2009, 16:56
i agree, i would like weather changes but not changes in the time of day.

imperialreign
2nd Sep 2009, 02:53
The open world is a worthless addition. It makes the City seem smaller. Also, looking back at all games in history that have had fully dynamic weather systems, good lighting and dynamic weather are incompatible. In a game like Thief, where the lighting is the most important visual aspect, dynamic weather simply can't be implemented. Judging from the amount of games that have had dynamic weather, and have failed completely with the lighting, it must be impossible to get both working properly. That, or the devs have spent so much time indoors that they've forgotten what the world looks like.


Hmmm . . . methinks someone has yet to play STALKER:SoC with the Weather Overhauled 3.0 mod: http://stalker.filefront.com/file/STALKER_Weather_Overhauled;97906 - the X-Ray engine is capable of both dynamic weather, as well as dynamic lighting (sadly, the devs didn't spend enough time developing this - although, they did develop dynamic weather for Clear Sky).


It can be done - it just depends on the amount of effort devs want to put into it . . .

that being said, I don't believe most current game engines allow for dynamic weather and environmental lighting such as that . . . Cryengine is the only other I can think of as well, but most changes to the environmental lighting happened at scripted times (and there was never any change in the weather). The engine can handle going from "daytime" to "nighttime" - but, no changes to weather.



Again, it all boils down to time constraints, and technical limitations.

I for one would love to see dynamic weather in T4, as well as lighting changes - perhaps add in the moon as a light source, which would also cause your shadows to change as the moon passes overhead . . .

Perhaps even take it a step further and impliment daylight - wait around too long, or take too long to carry out a mission, and dawn starts to break . . . increase AI activity going into daylight - it would make missions 10x more challenging.

Platinumoxicity
2nd Sep 2009, 06:51
Hmmm . . . methinks someone has yet to play STALKER:SoC with the Weather Overhauled 3.0 mod: http://stalker.filefront.com/file/STALKER_Weather_Overhauled;97906 - the X-Ray engine is capable of both dynamic weather, as well as dynamic lighting (sadly, the devs didn't spend enough time developing this - although, they did develop dynamic weather for Clear Sky).


It can be done - it just depends on the amount of effort devs want to put into it . . .

that being said, I don't believe most current game engines allow for dynamic weather and environmental lighting such as that . . . Cryengine is the only other I can think of as well, but most changes to the environmental lighting happened at scripted times (and there was never any change in the weather). The engine can handle going from "daytime" to "nighttime" - but, no changes to weather.



Again, it all boils down to time constraints, and technical limitations.

I for one would love to see dynamic weather in T4, as well as lighting changes - perhaps add in the moon as a light source, which would also cause your shadows to change as the moon passes overhead . . .

Perhaps even take it a step further and impliment daylight - wait around too long, or take too long to carry out a mission, and dawn starts to break . . . increase AI activity going into daylight - it would make missions 10x more challenging.

Yes, I've played STALKER with the WO3.0. I still can't get over the way the map areas in the distance fade into the skybox instead of a solid color. It looks stupid when you can see the background clouds through trees and buildings.
I don't remember if it had the "bright skyline" -problem though. :scratch:

Davehall380
2nd Sep 2009, 09:51
I cant confess to having played many modern games (im still pretty much stuck in a cycle of Baldurs Gate and Thief these days when I get chance), but it does seem that the technology is avaliable to render the weather and lighting to resemble thoose in real life. Graphics should be a second consideration next to lighting and sound. Weather needs to have an emphasis not neccesarily on looks, but on the effects it gives to the enovrioment in sound and lighting.

Platinumoxicity
2nd Sep 2009, 13:58
I cant confess to having played many modern games (im still pretty much stuck in a cycle of Baldurs Gate and Thief these days when I get chance), but it does seem that the technology is avaliable to render the weather and lighting to resemble thoose in real life. Graphics should be a second consideration next to lighting and sound. Weather needs to have an emphasis not neccesarily on looks, but on the effects it gives to the enovrioment in sound and lighting.

Yes, but it would still be nice to have that consistensy inside the game. In the silhouette cutscenes, the skyline is always dark compared to the sky. In the game, it's the other way around. See those "cardboard buildings" in TDS. They're grey. Not black. If they're going to have unnatural light phenomena in the game, they should draw the City wrong in the cutscenes too.

I don't think this is nitpicking because I can't understand how hard it can be to make everything fade to --> BLACK during nighttime. In fact, if the game features multiple skyboxes, every skybox should have a distance fog color chosen to fit the color of the skybox. Day --> Fade to blue. Night -->Fade to black. I noticed that in Fallout 3 when you enter the wasteland during the night, the horizon fades to bright gray. The game notices this problem and starts changing the color of the distance fog slowly to fit the skybox and an unobservative player barely notices it. In Thief though there shouldn't be this problem because there isn't a dynamic time cycle and no loading zones.

I said "NO LOADING ZONES" in case you didn't hear, EM. ;)

Or, alternatively: A game designed for 21st century PCs --> No fade. There should be a shader that makes the overall luminance of the sky always higher than the game world architecture.

Yaphy
2nd Sep 2009, 15:45
If its snow on the streets and you just walk around like any other people do, it would be weird if the guard noticed your fotprints among all the other.

Platinumoxicity
2nd Sep 2009, 18:55
If its snow on the streets and you just walk around like any other people do, it would be weird if the guard noticed your fotprints among all the other.

Well, in the street Garrett shouldn't even be noticeable by guards really. The way the guards jumped at any sound YOU made was stupid in the City. And inb4 "Garrett is a wanted criminal and everyone knows exactly what he looks like" No. Garrett would wear a neutral outfit, to blend into the crowd just like the keepers did.

In Thief 1 in the streets, (Bafford's, Assassins) the watch guards never reacted to Garrett's presence unless he was acting hostile.
In Thief 2 he was framed and searched for, New Market was quarantined to box Garrett in. The gates leading to other parts of the City were shut after curfew. The rooftops were also off limits so that's understandable.
In Deadly Shadows, Garrett was recognisable always, someone had even seen his face and made a "wanted" -poster. Every guard was constantly on the lookout for Garrett But the gates leading to other parts of the City were open after curfew, which was strange.

Wait, that's not on topic. :scratch:

Yaphy
2nd Sep 2009, 19:02
The "everybody knows what Garrett looks like" part in T3 was a lazy excuse to not make better AI. The guards sees him as a thief in the missions and the devs of T3 didnt want to make another sort of guard to have in the city. They used the same as in the missions and made that poor excuse.

Platinumoxicity
2nd Sep 2009, 21:08
The "everybody knows what Garrett looks like" part in T3 was a lazy excuse to not make better AI. The guards sees him as a thief in the missions and the devs of T3 didnt want to make another sort of guard to have in the city. They used the same as in the missions and made that poor excuse.

I know. They also used the exact same model for guards, the City Watch and the Hammerites. Everyone looked the same and acted the same.

imperialreign
2nd Sep 2009, 22:14
Yes, I've played STALKER with the WO3.0. I still can't get over the way the map areas in the distance fade into the skybox instead of a solid color. It looks stupid when you can see the background clouds through trees and buildings.
I don't remember if it had the "bright skyline" -problem though. :scratch:

I know of the issue you're talking about, and yeah, it sucks - although was 95% fixed with SWO3 . . . it's an engine limitation that surrounds the environmental draw distance, compared to the distance of the sky_cube.

One thing that did always bother me, though, was that the environmental draw distance didn't feel far enough - the distance is clouded by fog . . . but, can't extended the draw distance too far, or you run into the issue you described above.

Other users have tried to compensate for the problem (i.e. Panoramic Mod), but their soultions (although good in their own way) bring up other issues (such as fixed sky textures).

esme
3rd Sep 2009, 11:07
yes I wasn't too keen on the "everyone recognises Garrett" part of T3, why didn't one just follow him home and trap him in his apartment ?

... well they couldn't have got through the loading zone at the front door I guess

Davehall380
3rd Sep 2009, 11:30
yes I wasn't too keen on the "everyone recognises Garrett" part of T3, why didn't one just follow him home and trap him in his apartment ?

... well they couldn't have got through the loading zone at the front door I guess

either that or they forgot all about him when they respawned in the next street along

esme
3rd Sep 2009, 12:19
mind you the loading zone didn't stop the hammers and the pagans entering his apartment while he was out, so they could install their little gifts for all the rust mites blown up and stones envined

shame they couldn't both enter at the same time and have Garrett come home to a room ful of dead pagans and hammers :D

Davehall380
3rd Sep 2009, 15:29
mind you the loading zone didn't stop the hammers and the pagans entering his apartment while he was out, so they could install their little gifts for all the rust mites blown up and stones envined

shame they couldn't both enter at the same time and have Garrett come home to a room ful of dead pagans and hammers :D

What happend when you completed all of the side quests? This was something that I didn't try to hard to complete when I played it :D.

It was always quite bizzre in TDS how a calm, dark street scene would quickly descend into chaos when different factions appeared. Hammers, Pagans, Thieves, City Watch and Commoners lying dead in the streets. Still, they did a pretty good job of replacing these people overnight and cleaning away the bodies!

Secondary
3rd Sep 2009, 23:44
What happend when you completed all of the side quests? This was something that I didn't try to hard to complete when I played it :D.

It was always quite bizzre in TDS how a calm, dark street scene would quickly descend into chaos when different factions appeared. Hammers, Pagans, Thieves, City Watch and Commoners lying dead in the streets. Still, they did a pretty good job of replacing these people overnight and cleaning away the bodies!

im pretty sure nothing really happens when those sidequests end, i think they dont even end. i remember killing the same rust beetle in South Quarter atleast 10 times, i think they respawn. im pretty sure that those quests are just a way to gain favor with whatever faction you want.

and as for the City descending into chaos. man, when the keeper assassins are searching for you, they think everyone is personally trying to interrupt their mission. thats when i stopped enjoying the City hub between missions, when it dissolved into me ducking in and out of shadows, doging arrows and spells, desperately trying to get to the next mission entry without being killed.

jtr7
4th Sep 2009, 01:19
Those faction-specific quests are just to make it easier for the player to pass through faction territory, easier to collect plot-specific items, and inexplicably make Garrett just buddies with his enemies, when the previous titles had Garrett and the threatened faction reluctantly team up against the corrupt antagonist faction, to stop them from destroying The City. Fiction-wise, Garrett's work for the Pagans with the Cornerstones, Cocoons, and Sapling, were all to help the Pagan Shaman Necromancer raise undead, among other magic boosts.

esme
4th Sep 2009, 11:56
What happend when you completed all of the side quests? This was something that I didn't try to hard to complete when I played it :D.

It was always quite bizzre in TDS how a calm, dark street scene would quickly descend into chaos when different factions appeared. Hammers, Pagans, Thieves, City Watch and Commoners lying dead in the streets. Still, they did a pretty good job of replacing these people overnight and cleaning away the bodies!ok remember the small square of wood that looks like a hatch in Garretts apartment, well it's a table and this is where all the mysterious gifts appear

kill all the rust mites and the hammers install a water feature that gives you water arrows
envine all the magic cornerstones and the pagans break in and give you a plant that gives you moss arrows
there was also a fuss about a tree in the docks you could either burn it to please the hammers or plant it for the pagans, I can't remember if you could have them deposit their gifts without doing something to the tree I'm fairly sure you could get both gifts

spoiler covered for those that want to find out the hard way what happens ;)

windwalker
4th Sep 2009, 13:29
Hello All,

About dynamic weather and it's randomness... The rain's sound muffling effect is something else, but an exciting usage of lightning could be like:

You are trying to cross a marble room but there are two guards over the catwalk. Each step causes a loud noise off the marble. Hiding behind the statue, you wait till you see the lightning from the windows. Than you wait for a few seconds. When the sound of the lightning arrives, you rush to next statue, hiding your footstep sounds under lightning sounds.

Basically you use the sound of lightning as a veil. When you move away from outer windows and doors, the sound of lightning is lower and the chance this works is lower... Nice aint it?

Platinumoxicity
4th Sep 2009, 13:45
Hello All,

About dynamic weather and it's randomness... The rain's sound muffling effect is something else, but an exciting usage of lightning could be like:

You are trying to cross a marble room but there are two guards over the catwalk. Each step causes a loud noise off the marble. Hiding behind the statue, you wait till you see the lightning from the windows. Than you wait for a few seconds. When the sound of the lightning arrives, you rush to next statue, hiding your footstep sounds under lightning sounds.

Basically you use the sound of lightning as a veil. When you move away from outer windows and doors, the sound of lightning is lower and the chance this works is lower... Nice aint it?

Nice. But... "chance it works"? This is not a JRPG where the proper execution of some neat trick is based on percentages and luck. :)

The thunder could be a good sound muffler as long as you're not underground or some other place that muffles the thunder, but if you're in a place that has windows, or outside for that matter, the lightning makes you visible for a short time. It evens out nicely: More visibility&less sound. ;)

windwalker
4th Sep 2009, 15:01
about chance it works : well in fact I know Thief series never handled things as such, but there were times when "seemingly" randomly that I could blackjack a guard who has noticed me with a not-so-well-placed-blackjack-hit and times where the guard heard me a milisecond ago and my perfect-lander-powered-blackjack-hit only caused a headache in him.

So yes, the chance it works was a misuse of words; I should have said: It would be harder to hide your sounds when the lightning sound is lower.

Thanks for the correction, taffer ;)

Herr_Garrett
4th Sep 2009, 16:54
A thought: very strong lightning could also act as a weaker form of flashbomb. 'Course, you light up in lighnting like a burning Christmas tree, but afterwards your eyes (just like guards' eyes) need adjusting. No more than a couple of seconds, but it would be nice if this could be implemented.

Also, different weather comes with different "lines of sight". You can't expect a guard to see as well in fog and gloom as in broad daylight. I don't know if this is feasible, but it'd be nice.

Davehall380
4th Sep 2009, 17:11
ok remember the small square of wood that looks like a hatch in Garretts apartment, well it's a table and this is where all the mysterious gifts appear

kill all the rust mites and the hammers install a water feature that gives you water arrows
envine all the magic cornerstones and the pagans break in and give you a plant that gives you moss arrows
there was also a fuss about a tree in the docks you could either burn it to please the hammers or plant it for the pagans, I can't remember if you could have them deposit their gifts without doing something to the tree I'm fairly sure you could get both gifts

spoiler covered for those that want to find out the hard way what happens ;)

Cheers for that esme! As i said before, i never did complete the side missions at the time of playing (I only played through TDS once). :D

jtr7
4th Sep 2009, 23:03
The Hammers gift was also a healing font of "medicinal waters."


None of the quests alone were important to friendship with either faction. Doing enough favors was. All the rust mites could be kept alive, but killing enough undead or doing something against the Pagans increased alliance. Similarly, not mossing cornerstones, but feeding the cocoons was enough. It was only a matter of how many favors, not the completion of all quests.

DarkX2000
15th Oct 2009, 20:06
In thief 2 when your on the island where the Mechanist submarine,its all foggy right?
Well you can use the fog to hide and its cool to see figures disappearing or appearing from the fog.Maybe rain,also if the fog had effect in Thief 2 any other effects like rain or fog should have some viable effect or sound i.e. rain makes your foot steps louder. Or maybe its makes them quieter in some cases.I can't think of any other weather effects :mad2: but it would still be really cool.

jtr7
16th Oct 2009, 00:20
Yep, go here:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88509 :)

Fog never hid you, it just reduced what the player could see and hid some map geometry. Someday fog will provide cover, but it hasn't.


I'd like to see all four seasons again.

glyph07
22nd Oct 2009, 12:13
I'd love to have all seasons + but don't laugh too much at this, I'd love to have Garrett inside his home, during a bright sunny day and making a comment on the reasons for not going out just now! I would love to have even few seconds of video where we can have a glimpse at a cosy, single, loony, private moment of life, with no implications or particular revelations whatsoever.

xDarknessFallsx
23rd Oct 2009, 03:18
Thunder and lightning better make it in. And if it does, the lightning better usually strike before the thunder. I hate it when games get sloppy and have both the light and the sound occurring at the same time all the time. A lot of video games would have you believe that sound travels at the speed of light. Don't be fooled.

Shadow Blade
23rd Oct 2009, 05:37
Weather effects would be amazing in a thief game. It will also help increase the overall feel of a mission. I was thinking about the possibilities of wind.

Like if you leave a door open that leads directly to the outside environment or there if there is an open or broken window it could have that spooky sound to it.

I also thought about if you leave a door to the outside open the guards could recognize the sound of the wind or if they get close to the door they say something like. "That sure is a chilly breeze glad I'm not outside for tonight's duty"

If it could be implemented it would be great effects to have

xDarknessFallsx
23rd Oct 2009, 06:41
Or the wind making the door swing a little, giving a creaking sound; sometimes slamming shut with the draft -- or maybe when a window or door on the other side of the room is opened.

Weather, seasons and the related weather and environmental effects has the potential to add a lot of fun, new, creepy, foreboding, etc. atmosphere to the Thief series.

razorstealth
23rd Oct 2009, 15:14
I liked the lightning concept especially at overlook mansion in the dome glass roofed room. What would be nice is if the weather was universal for the level. I didn't like how I could lave that room and suddenly the raging thunderstorm was no more.. I would absolutely love fog too if it can be achieved realistically.

Psychomorph
24th Oct 2009, 00:10
Or the wind making the door swing a little, giving a creaking sound; sometimes slamming shut with the draft -- or maybe when a window or door on the other side of the room is opened.
OH MY GOD!!! I SOOOO WANT THAT!!!!!!!!!! Please devs, do this! Imagine the situation; you open a window and it starts to be moved by wind until it makes a noise when it shuts and opens, a guards comes to investigate the situation. A tactical aspect.

Also, imagine how wind can influence torch fire (including the emitted light flickering on the walls, ground, etc), that would be so great.

jtr7
24th Oct 2009, 01:00
Only there are no molecules bouncing around to create wind, so it would have to be faked with another set of animations, but yes, 'twould be cool.

Platinumoxicity
24th Oct 2009, 08:02
Only there are no molecules bouncing around to create wind, so it would have to be faked with another set of animations, but yes, 'twould be cool.

I've been wondering jtr7, you know so much about the Thiefs, too much sometimes, but...

Wind is possible in games. Just like the mirrors a while back where you said that there are no photons bouncing around. When wind interacts with objects in the game world, their behavior is a set of seeminly randomized mathematical calculations. And the wind itself that makes snow and rain fall differently, is a concept as simple as gravity.

Games usually only have gravity in the z-axis. when you add slight gravity on the x- or y-axis, the result is wind. When this wind interacts with obejcts, their movement is randomized by the small wind variables and the physics engine itself, as well as the regular z-axis gravity.

Hecateus
24th Oct 2009, 15:35
ther's much more too it than that.

drafts are the result if pressure differences. So it would have to constantly calculate different volumes and physics effects (pressure temp gas laws) which are likely not worth the time and effort to fake right.

Platinumoxicity
24th Oct 2009, 16:21
ther's much more too it than that.

drafts are the result if pressure differences. So it would have to constantly calculate different volumes and physics effects (pressure temp gas laws) which are likely not worth the time and effort to fake right.

Draft can be programmed like a random algorithm that swings the windows or moves physics objects in a certain area. IIRC dromED uses some sort of sound areas that determine the way sound travels in the room, out of the room and into the room. That was back in '98. The draft doesn't have to be a real simulated change of pressure. It's just a physics program that creates slight random movement vectors to the physics objects in the area of it's effect. It doesn't have to be the Matrix, just a simple program that creates vectors.

Pretty much any natural phenomena can be made to seem realistic in real time game physics. It just depends on vector calculations.

ajww1308
25th Oct 2009, 15:36
Thief 2 had some weather conditions in it like rain that you could turn on or off and fogging. I can see your point and think that it is a good thought.

ajww1308

Aristofiles
26th Oct 2009, 22:46
why should guards flip over footprints. If i was a guard and saw one i would have a few options:

1: assume its a psyco thief, shout alarm and then search all night for any intruder
2: assume its a fellow guard
3: assume its a servant
4: assume its a visitor thats not a psyco thief
5: assume its my own
6: simply not assume anything but more likely ignor and save alot of work

after all most thief missions take place in well populated areas filled with people. Lets not give the avrage guard to mutch credit.

jtr7
27th Oct 2009, 00:12
In real life, the vigilant notice anything amiss. Anything unusual puts one into a higher alert level. This happens on a daily basis for myself and my coworkers. But as for Thief, the AI cannot be realistic or the game is extremely difficult except for a few.

13LACK13ISHOP
28th Oct 2009, 18:56
When it is snowy or cold when you jump in to a lake you can only spend a limited time in there or you will get hypothermia. This will weaken(slow your character and weaken lockpicking and bow aim) your character and you will need to dry of(don't get wet) and the hotter your enviroment the quicker it wears of. Standing in the snow is not going to get rid of it. Spend to long in the water and you will be a frozen corpse. Mud can leave trails(as well as blood and other things) and footprints could be left in the snow. Fog could effect your sight as well as there sight so use it to your advantage and be careful. Same goes for heavy rain and snow. Both could be used to mask sound as well as wind and other things such as crowds, machines, animals and the like. Lightning can cause a flash of light. Iced waters can crack so you can lure heavy enemies like armoured guards and iron beasts. Guards stay near shade in hot daylight (if daylight is in theif) and indoor areas and fires in cold weather. Put out the heat source and you will change the where the guards stay and they will move to a different area.Cold weather can steam up windows and prevent guards from looking through them. You can write on windows or mirrors to mess with guards(enter to write random phrase like "hahahahaha idiot try and find me" or "your the dumbest taffer I have ever seen" and clear them by holding enter so you can see or get rid of it).Rain can cause roofs to be slippery so your movement speed is reduced. Jumping in puddles can lure guards over to your location. Compact snowballs out of the ground(enter) and throw at guards(left click) or near guards to distract them. You can cause a snowball fight between guards this way. Cold weather makes your breath visible so hold it or store snow in your mouth(harvest snow ball with enter than press the use item key) to get rid of this problem. A finland sniper in the finland/russian war used this to method to conceal his position and he got 700-800 kills alone.Your aim and lockpicking skills in cold weather is reduced because of your shaky hands and frozen locks. Cold weather can disable iron beasts and hot weather can cause them to overheat. Mud,dirt and condensation can cause there cameras to become useless and they will seek cover and guards will have to clean them. Doors can become stiff in cold weather. Garret can sweat over a long period of time(visible on his skin) if in very hot weather to long so seek shade or in hot place like furnaces so you become visible to dogs noses so go jump in some water. Rain can cause leaks in ceilings and guards listen to the drips when in silence. This gives them a better sense or hearing because they focus on the drips. Wind can alter smoke and gas. Snow makes you very quiet because it is a soft surface so you can run quietly on it like carpet but you cannot blackjack guards without background noise(falling snow) because of your weight means you make the snow crunch. Go prone to get rid of the crunch. Rain can make muddy areas which slow guards and create footprints. Mines can be hidden in snow and mud(by crouching and holding enter to plant). Wind can effect the direction of arrows so either fire when it has stopped or use it to your advantage. Rotting corpses will stink in hot places.

Also think of things like craymen, burricks ect and how they might be effected by weather and thus gameplay. I have so many ideas. The possiblities are endless.

glyph07
28th Oct 2009, 20:22
Everything u pointed out, provided it's feasible and concretely capable adding value to the game sounds heaven to me! :thumb:

Ultra Taffer
21st Sep 2010, 03:19
why should guards flip over footprints. If i was a guard and saw one i would have a few options:

1: assume its a psyco thief, shout alarm and then search all night for any intruder
2: assume its a fellow guard
3: assume its a servant
4: assume its a visitor thats not a psyco thief
5: assume its my own
6: simply not assume anything but more likely ignor and save alot of work

after all most thief missions take place in well populated areas filled with people. Lets not give the avrage guard to mutch credit.

Those are all valid points.
There are many possible explanations for footprints so guards shouldn't raise their alert level just because they spot any old footprints.
But let's say footprints were spotted that led up to a window and just stopped right there (that is, there were no footprints heading away from that window)?
That would look suspicious to anyone... even Benny could figure it out, right?
I think it would be cool to enter through a window, leaving those suspicious footprints and then hearing guards starting to alert each other, saying "Be on the lookout! Some suspicious footprints were spotted outside and we may have an intruder."
If I were a thief and heard that, I wouldn't repeat that mistake again and it would make me a better thief.
Perhaps the AI reaction to footprints that can be considered "obviously suspicious" might be scripted into certain missions in Thief 4.

Abletto
21st Sep 2010, 15:23
But let's say footprints were spotted that led up to a window and just stopped right there


Interesting proposition. Certain areas (only accessible by Garrett) which when footprints are left in these areas Guards become suspicious or even actively searching for the propagator.

I can see areas such as window sills, hallways outside vaults, any untraveled path. Obviously the Guards tend to either stand Sentry or run their rounds along the same areas.

If it's night time and suddenly there are footprints leading off down to a side door that nobody has any reason to take, it would warrant some investigation.

The question is: what makes these footprints? Snow? Rain? Mud?

If it's currently snowing, said footprint could easily become filled in. If it's raining but the footprints are underneath an alcove, how long until it evaporates? If you tracked mud into a castle, how well preserved would the footprint be?

Honestly, I see many scripting difficulties and real world influences that would make footprint identification incredibly difficult or overly simplified.
(i.e. a footprint on a window sill that's 12 feet above the Guards head yet he is still alerted of Garrett's presence despite)

Let's face it, Guards aren't going to be crawling all over the floor and walls looking for footprints, they're more concerned with motion/movement and sounds.

That being said, I love the idea of Weather, either static or dynamic being added to Thief 4. For me, Thief is all about the environment. If it can be improved in any way; I say go for it.

Whether or not these Weather Effects make any difference to Garrett's ability to stealth isn't much of a concern to me. However I do like some of the ideas thrown around: lightning flashes revealing a concealed Thief, rain making it easier to Stealth (and easier to slip and fall?)

If it was pulled off properly it could truly add an astonishing aspect to Thief's Stealth Gameplay.

And if not, I'd still love to see some weather beyond overcast clouds on gloomy nights.

P.S. One thing to consider. Any weather that makes it more difficult to be seen should also make a Guard more easily unnoticed. Weather is a big thing, with a big affect.

AlexOfSpades
24th Sep 2010, 19:53
Should Garrett put on a white cloak on a snowy mission?

Or should he use an umbrella as blackjack on a rainy mission?

Heh.

Asadar
29th Sep 2010, 20:29
Or should he use an umbrella as blackjack on a rainy mission.

Mouarf ! :lol:

jtr7
7th Feb 2011, 02:50
If only this was simple enough to implement so it wouldn't drain development time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv6GcBe77ZY&hd=1

Voyce086
12th Feb 2011, 23:18
Weather can be fantastic in all of its forms, and could breathe a whole lot of unique life into The City in Thief 4. Many here have posted why, and what could/would happen (in REALLY in-depth posts I might add!), etc. Awesome stuff, truly. BUT...

Anyone ever play Far Cry 2? Huge open-world environment, 50 km squared, no loading screens (except for safe-houses and scripted missions). Dynamic weather that could change at any time and affect the environment itself was used. Pretty amazing stuff! As a mercenary, you could sleep in a safehouse to wait until a specific time of day to execute certain missions. An open attack on a convoy could be done during the day OR night, but an assassination against the son of a warlord? Probably better to go during the night.

The thing is though, I found that there wasn't much point in doing things during the daytime when I could go at night with stealth and suppressed weapons. Why get into a firefight when I could avoid it? And when a tropical rainstorm hit the world around me, I was in awe at the landscape. Trees and individual blades of grass swayed with the wind (which was dynamic as well, btw), ripples in the water, occasional sheets of rain and fog lingered all around. It was fantastic!

Unfortunately I found that because I enjoyed this experience so much, I found myself yearning for a tropical rainstorm to hit again as the game progressed (and it was a LONG game). I didn't enjoy daytime missions as much even though the scenery & environment etc was still gorgeous and realistic.

My point is...I always loved Thief in that the atmosphere was set for you. I never wished that Bafford's Manor was during the morning in dawn's light, or foggy with rain pelting the streets and walls of his estate. I loved Bafford's Manor for being Bafford's Manor. I loved the world presented with each level, ya know?

What I'm saying may not be a worry for others, but once I got a taste of the rainstorm in Far Cry 2, from that point on, I was annoyed when the clouds weren't gray. I missed it too much to enjoy the other varieties of weather I experienced afterward.

EDIT:* I should point out that dynamic weather in Thief really appeals to me. I have the same curiosities as many of you and recognize what it could do for the game, if done correctly. But I'd rather be forced to navigate a rainy or snowy passage and have to worry about footprints etc, then having the option to simply wait it out until it wasn't raining anymore. Perhaps they could give us levels like the old ones, but each one have it's own range of possible dynamic weather tailored for that level specifically. Does that make sense?

Nephthys
13th Feb 2011, 03:55
EDIT:* I should point out that dynamic weather in Thief really appeals to me. I have the same curiosities as many of you and recognize what it could do for the game, if done correctly. But I'd rather be forced to navigate a rainy or snowy passage and have to worry about footprints etc, then having the option to simply wait it out until it wasn't raining anymore. Perhaps they could give us levels like the old ones, but each one have it's own range of possible dynamic weather tailored for that level specifically. Does that make sense?

I totally agree.
I think that it would work out really well if there were level that, for example, are a constant snow storm, where as before or after that level, there's more dynamic weather, as if to hint towards a more constant weather pattern.
It would also be great to show the passage of time. Day 2-occasional Snow flurries Day 3- Blizzard. You know?

jtr7
15th Feb 2011, 05:29
I would love to see everything that has been shown in the cutscenes, that wasn't symbolism (like evil Trickster eyes superimposed over the night sky), brought to virtual life. No game has ever tried anything like what is shown there. For this topic, rain and electrical storms, and snowfall and drifts, but also just lots of smoke and smog and steam and factories' chimneys (not one or two once in awhile), blanketing The City oppressively, darkening shadows and attenuating the light of various types, where the rain looks miserable even as it helps wash away some of the grime; but outside The City, the rain is welcome and the greenery is lush, rarely looking deadly or dangerous to cityfolk, but deceivingly inviting, open like a giant carnivorous plant form to bring in the manfools and devour them, with mist and fog effects and pollen and dust dancing in beams of silver or golden light.

Nephthys
15th Feb 2011, 06:06
something I liked from Thief DS. The sparkles in the moonlight. That little detail was something I'd never seen before, and it made me think that the places you were in had something like dust in the air. It's almost funny to think about space like air being utilized in a game, but I can see it working very well with Thief, whether it be dust or snow or fog.

Sharazito
21st Feb 2011, 00:38
Would be nice.. But only once in a especific level or mission.. Not very often...

jtr7
21st Feb 2011, 06:25
It's a lot of work, so I would expect it to get used more than once, especially if it's a dozen different things, not one effect.

Lord Ornlu
22nd Feb 2011, 14:09
The question is: what makes these footprints? Snow? Rain? Mud?

If it's currently snowing, said footprint could easily become filled in. If it's raining but the footprints are underneath an alcove, how long until it evaporates? If you tracked mud into a castle, how well preserved would the footprint be?

Honestly, I see many scripting difficulties and real world influences that would make footprint identification incredibly difficult or overly simplified.
(i.e. a footprint on a window sill that's 12 feet above the Guards head yet he is still alerted of Garrett's presence despite)

Let's face it, Guards aren't going to be crawling all over the floor and walls looking for footprints, they're more concerned with motion/movement and sounds.


Well it's easy to parameters for each kind of weather, if it rained in the last 30 minutes in the game, then there will be mud around and the Thief will leave footprints for 5 minutes there for example. or until someone passes by and adds his own.

If it's snowing while you walk, then obviously the timer that the footprints will disappear will be shorter. Also footprints could appear if you break in the mansion (as you mentioned) and you step on carpets, let's say for the first 10 footsteps u do and they stay there unless you take the time to scrub them off using water arrows (for example).

These parameters are easy to set and are very much like the sound element when stepping on different surfaces. It's just easier because the effect for each surface is not a varying recorded sound but a simple mathematical calculation by the system, with a timer and a graphics change.

jtr7
22nd Feb 2011, 20:02
The problem that will always keep footprint effects limited is the same thing that leads to blood splashes disappearing (or purposely evaporated), and that's tech limits on how many objects there are in the game-world to remember. Modern tech is built on old ideas, and the limits are moved further out, not overcome. I'd love to see footprints and other effects, but something has to be sacrificed to make it work. Unfortunately for footprints and blood splashes (and I hope TDS's evaporating moss isn't continued on), we all want a fuller world, with higher interactivity, and more stuff in and around the world, and footprints easily get cut for that.

JacktheBox
8th Mar 2011, 00:24
Can't really scour through this thread with the time I have but has anyone mentioned visibility conditions or getting struck by lightning?

I'm not kidding, it could be like an easter egg.

Fizbop
8th Mar 2011, 00:29
The only problem I would have with the weather is depending on the engine they use, it could slow the game down entirely, and ruin what could be a great game by having it activated. Though I could see a thunderstorm and Garrett running around but having to slow down for puddles as to not be heard.

Elvendar
11th Sep 2012, 08:56
Another Smart Idea Which I Agree With - Dynamic Weather, Seasons And Time Of Day Cycles Would Act As Natural Environmental Hazards Working Against Garrett.

Cold And Ice Makes Garrett Shake More And Unable To Pick Locks As Effectively And If He Doesn't Find A Fire To Warm Up The Winter Weather Can Side Line Him, Worse During The Evening When It's Even Colder.

Snow Will Show Up His Footprints For Guards To Investigate Unless Garrett Thinks Ahead And Conceals His Footprints With Something To Rake Over The Footprints Obscuring Them.

Lightning Will Light Up Dark Areas And If At The Wrong Time Can Reveal Garrett To Guards, The Same With The Rising Or The Setting Sun Whose Beams Of Light While Arcing High Above The Sky May Reveal Dark Alleyways Until The Sun Starts Setting And Houses Block The Light Forcing Garrett To Lay Low Or Rely On His Personal Pets Like A Raven Or Ferret Through A Psychic Rapport To Do Work Which He Is Unable To Do Without The Light Of Day Exposing Him.

Spring Rain Storms Is A Big Bonus Or Big Headache For Garrett As Rain Will Wash Away Footprints But Soak His Shoes Creating Puddles When He Enters Dry Areas As Well As Weight Him Down With The Weight Of Water Soaked Clothing Also Dripping Water.

Until He Dries Off He Goes No Where And Again Might Have To Rely On His Thieving Pet Familars To Help Him Continue His Work Until He Dries Off.

Nearby Rain Puddles Also Can Allow Him To Create Water Arrows As He Waits To Dry Off.

Another Problem With Rain Is The Sloshing Noise He Makes When He Moves And That Could Run A Higher Risk Of Attraction By Guards And NPC's Investigating The Noise.

Seasons Like Summer Heat And Humidity Can Effect His Stamina And If Garrett Doesn't Keep Himself Hydrated Can Create Moments Of Dizziness And Lightheadedness And If Gone Chronic Suddenly Pass Out And Risk Discovery By Guards Where He Passed Out.

The Fall Is Great For Leaves To Randomly Fall Creating A Natural Mat Of Soundproofing For Noise Free Pathways Or Places To Hide In Like Leaf Piles But He Also Risks Colder Rain To Contend With And Colder Temperatures But Not As Much As In Winter.

Again In Winter Garrett Might Find It Easier To Hide If Masquerading Himself In White Clothing To Blend In With Snow But Would Have To Remove It Once Inside Homes And Castles Least He Is Easily Spotted.

Also Of Note For Weather Dangers Is The Possibility Of Being Hit By Lightning Or Blessed With Hail That Causes Guards To Run For Cover Or Force Garrett To Get Out Of The Way Of Guards Running For Cover From The Hail.

With Hail Garret Can Melt Them Down Into Water For Water Arrows Or Use As Items Of Noise Distraction Which Melt Away And Leave No Evidence.

Lightning Strikes Create Fire Embers For Fire Arrows For Garrett To Harvest.

Also Of Note Is Garrett Should Be Under Natural Laws Of The Body From The Need To Eat Or Risk Weakness, Fainting Or Even Illness That Affects Him And His Constitution.

Also Garrett Must Keep Himself Hydrated And Must Find A Long Term Protected Spot To Sleep Safely To Recharge His Energy As Well As Urinate And Pass Other Body Waste To Keep With The Realism Reality Of How The Body Works.

These Would Be Great Editions For Garrett And The Thief 4 Developers To Incorporate For The Next Installment Of The Franchise.

If EIDOS Decided To Expand Garrett's World Into Just Half The Size Of The "Elder Scrolls: Skyrim" World Style Or Even Use That Same Engine Tailoring The Dungeons And Caves Into Garrett's "Thief" Universe I Suspect EIDOS Would Have A Hit On Their Hands AND With A Far Longer Game Play In The Hundreds Of Hours Due To Garrett's Need To Creep Everywhere And NOT Rely On 'Bash N' Brawn' Gameplay.

Something For EIDOS Montreal To Consider.

I Have A Ton Of Ideas For Thief 4 I Could Chatter With Them About Making Thief 4 Stunning And Make The First 3 Thief Installments Look Pale By Comparison. :-D

ClubbedToDeath
11th Sep 2012, 15:57
More realism doesnt mean better gameplay imo

tarvis79
11th Sep 2012, 18:36
More realism doesnt mean better gameplay imo

Depends how it's applied. I don't want Garrett to need food and water, but more realism in the stealth aspects would be incredibly welcome.

I want serious sound upgrades, which would cut both ways. If a bunch of dudes are walking around, I don't think guards should magically be able to know that they're hearing Garrett amongst all the others. If somebody's alone, though, ANY noise should make them extra suspicious. That kind of thing.

contrarian
12th Sep 2012, 12:54
ELVENDAR, I must respectfully disagree with every single point you made. I think Thief would suffer immensely if even one of your points was incorporated.

Too much overthinking. Too much to worry about. Too much of everything. I don't want to get mired in trivialities for the sake of "reality".

I think it would slow the game down to a crawl. It would feel clumsy and forced.

Yaphy
12th Sep 2012, 19:44
I totally agree with contrarian. What next? Do we have to use water to keep Garrett's ears clean or else the sound would get worse? Should we need to clip his nails so that he can use the tools easier? The game is not The Sims. It's not about checking your bladder in case of urination.

Hamadriyad
12th Sep 2012, 20:06
I agree. Some lightning and snow would be good though.

larix
13th Sep 2012, 03:41
I'm against dynamic weather - it would complicate things too much and cause balance issues.
Weather itself would be nice though, for example some of missions could have default static weather X in them.
Rain/Thunder Storm/Mist comes to mind. That would work well imo, just imagine Cradle like lvl with sound of rain drops pounding on roof and lightnings randomly striking, lightening room while you try to sneak and few seconds later sound of it following, when you've already forgotten it just struck somewhere near.

sneaksie_one
13th Sep 2012, 07:18
As much as I like open world games, such as Assassin's Creed for instance, I think things become too artificial. I always thought things were a little bit to mechanic, cause Open world games bring the sensation that you could do a lot but in fact you're only walking towards a mission, running to get there, thats for me at least. I would always just run all the way, get on the strange spot that triggers a mission and there the fun begins since it is there that the atmosphere is. Given that, I would rather have a mission system, just like we have already and for each mission the weather is just programmand to suit that mission. It can be great, I imagine an abandoned cathedral, at night, with a heavy rain beating down, pushing windows open and the wind moving them with physics engines. Another one where you would walk the city snowing just like we have in Dark Projects cinematics. Maybe the weather is already set to change when you a hit certain part of the game. I don't know, I think open world games are still too limited to provide the experience the idea of open world makes you think of.
Anyway, nothing could make this game more atmospheric than weather, it would be great.

Yaphy
13th Sep 2012, 07:44
Something important about the weather is how the AI react to it. It can create or destroy the immersion. Something I noticed in the game Sleeping Dogs is that when it rains the AI reacts accordingly. If they have a cardboard, suitcase or newspaper they will hold it over their head. People would start to hurry up when they walk. Many people would take shelter by standing under roofs and some use umbrellas. You also hear comments about the rain. It really adds to the immersion. It would be amazing to have different sound and animations depending on the weather. They could walk more carefully if it's snowing and hurry up if it's raining. Few people would be out in thunderstorm and you could see stray cats hiding in alleys. They could use cloaks and blankets for the rain and hats and gloves when it's cold. If it's windy it would be great to see people hold on hard to their hats so they don't blow away.

contrarian
14th Sep 2012, 14:13
I, for one, like dynamic weather....sort of.

I think certain missions should always have rain or snow or a clear night, but maybe allow some randomizations within that mission.

It was either Forza or GT that had a lightning crash at the same time, every time. And the same dang bird chirped at the exact same spot, every time. Boooooring.

A large part of Thief is atmosphere. EM could really capitalize on the technology of today and have some missions with a raging thunderstorm in the background or a light snow falling. It would only add to its immersiveness.

Kyle Hyde
17th Sep 2012, 11:01
I don't need dynamic weather but some variation would be great. Weather effects in general of course!

Since I saw the ending in Dark Project I wish for an (official) snow mission on the rooftops of the city with kind of a soothing and calm atmosphere (at least at the beginning).
Imagine that kind of music in the background before it turns into something darker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84oOfzTmc5g


Thunderstorms, thick mist etc. would be great too.

Epifire
24th Sep 2012, 20:40
Just seconding this thread but dynamic weather in T4 sounds awesome. I know it is more then likely the devs are already adding in some kind of weather since it just fits so well. But effecting the game play, not so sure if they had gone into that. Sure hope they will but I got my doubts.

I think it would be a rather pleasant surprise were they too in all honesty. Unreal3 is not known for great physics but they might have modified the engine like they did with T3.

Best of hopes though but I am certainly looking forward to the outcome of this nonetheless.