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Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th May 2009, 14:18
Should Garrett remain the main protagonist in Thief?
Or if he is not the main character, what should his role be? :scratch:

What about the little girl that you see in the ending of T3: DS?
Perhaps she has grown up and features in the new Thief?

Discuss... :)



__

mister_riz
11th May 2009, 14:21
Yes of course. Seriously guys, you will BADLY alienate people by changing from Garrett and very much get off on the wrong foot. Please. Don't do it...

Subjective Effect
11th May 2009, 14:21
It seems that Eidos Montreal haven't decided on anything concrete and are asking the fans for input which is a good thing.


Garrett will be the most popular choice, by far. But he MUST be played by Stephen Russel. Anything else would be a total fail.


There is one confounding factor with choosing him - how is the plot going to progress beyond Thief 3? There had better be a compelling reason to use him and by that I mean a very coherent plot continuation because the fans will not like a nonsense plot that "spoils" the character. Having said that using another character would be sooooo risky. I personally would favour Garrett in a continuation from T3.

Victoria - do a poll. The result is a foregone conclusion though.

UrUkUs
11th May 2009, 14:24
any way for playing multiple roles? And u can choose em at mission briefing. That way couldn't harm any Garret fan...

Yandros
11th May 2009, 14:25
Play some missions as the girl, others as Garrett (her mentor). Or even tag-team in the middle of a mission. Makes everybody happy, and also makes for some innovative gameplay, which is the foundation of this franchise.

Palmberg
11th May 2009, 14:25
It's not Thief without playing as Garrett, and he should stay as the loner he is. So lets just ignore the girl from T3.... please. :)

mister_riz
11th May 2009, 14:26
any way for playing multiple roles? And u can choose em at mission briefing. That way couldn't harm any Garret fan...

This would badly affect the story so I wholeheartedly disagree. It MUST be Garrett or a huge chunk of excitement/anticipation for this game will vanish for 99% of Thief fans.

Morphine
11th May 2009, 14:29
Garrett should stay as the main character, only if you get Stephen Russel to play him. There should be optional side missions that involve the little girl. If you're unable to use Stephen Russel, then Garrett needs to be heavily involved in the game.

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
11th May 2009, 14:31
What about the little girl that you see in the ending of T3: DS?
Perhaps she has grown up and features in T4?


:mad2:
HOLY CRAP NO, that's what I was afraid of. I knew the ending of DS will get the devs some unbelievably stupid ideas. The ending had a purely symbolic meaning, it provided closure to the story, it might as well have been a boy instead of a girl and it wouldn't make any difference.
If Garrett is not the player's protagonist, then just cancel this game. Seriously, don't bother or you'll be eaten alive.

Don't you recall how FURIOUS fans of MGS were when they played MGS2? DON'T make the same mistake!

Thief is the story of GARRETT voiced by Stephen Russel. Period.

Dominus
11th May 2009, 14:33
Thief without Garrett as main character is not Thief, make another game if you need to change Garrett, don't name it Thief.

Xcom
11th May 2009, 14:36
Yes, Garrett should remain.

StalinsGhost
11th May 2009, 14:39
I say not. Given how T3 ended, I'd say it would just be selling on the brand if he was. It would be excellent if he had become a myth in the city - the "Thief who became a Shadow Lord", forever influencing affairs in the city while never being truly seen. The main character could be one of many copycats, seeking to attain the reputation Garrett has within the city. Eventually your character happens upon Garrett's affairs, slowly getting dragged in, learning what the man is really about while getting involved in the dark affairs of the cities shadow factions as they manuever their schemes to seek dominance.

mister_riz
11th May 2009, 14:44
I say not. Given how T3 ended, I'd say it would just be selling on the brand if he was. It would be excellent if he had become a myth in the city - the "Thief who became a Shadow Lord", forever influencing affairs in the city while never being truly seen. The main character could be one of many copycats, seeking to attain the reputation Garrett has within the city. Eventually your character happens upon Garrett's affairs, slowly getting dragged in, learning what the man is really about while getting involved in the dark affairs of the cities shadow factions as they manuever their schemes to seek dominance.

I disagree 100% and hope to God this doesn't happen. Let me put this simply:

If the protagonist is Garrett I will be waiting at the game store at 9am sharp upon release.

If the protagonist changes it will totally ruin my enthusiasm for this title to the point where I will check reviews and forums very carefully before buying.

Garrett is THAT important to this series.

Barsavian
11th May 2009, 14:46
Without Garret it's not a thief game, he's a loner so keep him that was please. No romantic subplots. The extent to which he works with others should work like thief 2. Which is almost not at all.

Gillie
11th May 2009, 14:48
Garrett is Thief a lone Thief. It would be easy to go back to his roots let's say.
The younger character could be in it but not as a main character.
Thief would not be Thief without Garrett. Stephen Russell as well. ;)

Bukary
11th May 2009, 14:50
There are many thieves in the City, but Garrett is the only Thief.

Thief without Garrett? No way.

acridrose
11th May 2009, 14:51
Garrett IS the thief series... but that's not to say we can't accept a new protagonist.

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
11th May 2009, 14:52
I say not. Given how T3 ended, I'd say it would just be selling on the brand if he was. It would be excellent if he had become a myth in the city - the "Thief who became a Shadow Lord", forever influencing affairs in the city while never being truly seen.

Garrett is a LONER. He would never become the "Boss of the Underworld". We don't need another Lara Croft, play Velvet Assassin if Garrett bothers you that much.

StalinsGhost
11th May 2009, 14:52
I disagree 100% and hope to God this doesn't happen. Let me put this simply:

If the protagonist is Garrett I will be waiting at the game store at 9am sharp upon release.

If the protagonist changes it will totally ruin my enthusiasm for this title to the point where I will check reviews and forums very carefully before buying.

Garrett is THAT important to this series.

I'd agree that Garrett is probably one of (if not the) most important part of the series (I must add, Thief is my favourite game of all time, Garrett is my favourite character) But on a strictly narrative look at things, at the end of T3, Garrett was in a position of huge power. He should be in it (if only keep Stephen Russel on the job! :D) But it would be nice to see them continue progressively from where T3 ended off.

It would be awesome having him in the background constantly screwing with your own actions within the game as I see it. :D


Garrett is a LONER. He would never become the "Boss of the Underworld". We don't need another Lara Croft, play Velvet Assassin if Garrett bothers you that much.

Not my point. He should be a loner. But now a loner invested with the remaining powers of the Keepers, forcing him to balance his own stubbornly independent methodology with the responsibilities forced on him.

Illuminus
11th May 2009, 14:53
Wow, pro Garrett in here. Am i going to be stoned to death voting for that little girl in T3 to take main role? :poke:

StalinsGhost
11th May 2009, 14:56
Wow, pro Garrett in here. Am i going to be stoned to death voting for that little girl in T3 to take main role? :poke:

I'll stand with you :D

Though perhaps not the girl. I'd rather have someone not "in the loop" as such.

Barsavian
11th May 2009, 14:58
Wow, pro Garrett in here. Am i going to be stoned to death voting for that little girl in T3 to take main role? :poke:

That would be going far too easy, how about burning at the stake under a rain of salt and feces.

My enthusiam for the game will go from "im buying it the moment it comes out" to "wonder if there are any torrents out" if I find out something like that is going to happen.

kin
11th May 2009, 15:03
Garrett is thief
Garrett is fail safe
Garrett is The thief
Garrett is Stephen Russel
Garrett is what i am going to buy
Do i have to say more?

StalinsGhost
11th May 2009, 15:04
How about the mechanic Call of Juarez used, alternating between characters?

Danius
11th May 2009, 15:05
I think Garrett should remain as the protagonist in T4. Garrett's personality and satiric comments has become a part of Thief and it would not be the same without him.

The girl from the end of T3 could have part in the game (maybe as a keeper trainee) but should not be a playable character.

Nate
11th May 2009, 15:19
Well, going from the ending of DS, there are some interesting options for the devs.

Garrett as the main character is what I would prefer. However, I could deal with having to occasionally play through a mission as that girl/boy (?) at the end of DS (for example)....from now on, I am going to call that boy/girl PAT.

Please get Stephen Russell to do the voice of Garrett though if at all possible.

I personally would love to see Garrett heading/building his own Thieves/Keeper guild. The main opponents this time around could be the Hand Mages who could be trying to fill in the power vacuum left by the demise of the Keepers (and the decline of the Pagans and Hammers).

Even if Garrett isn't going to be a part of the game, I'll still keep an open mind about it.

geekytom
11th May 2009, 15:27
Hmmm, don't know what to say about this one. The narrative of the third game did seem to hand over the mantle of main protagonist over to that girl. However I'm willing to bet that the writer wasn’t planning on a fourth game because it did rap the story arch up nicely.

I'm sure there is a way to write in Garrett as the main character again as there would obviously be a large back lash he didn’t make some sort of appearance.

Just thinking out loud here; but what would peoples reactions be to Garrett having a son? You could then keep the same voice actor and same personality (like father like son etc) but have the added bonus of him trying to live up to his father's deeds in the previous games. Maybe even go up against him on certain levels (he could even be the big bad at the end of the game, blasphemes I know.)

column5
11th May 2009, 15:27
I would definitely prefer for Garrett to be the player character. He is one of the best characters in the history of computer gaming, after all. Two key points though: Stephen Russell is Garrett--don't replace him with another voice actor. Also, Garrett and The City are inseparable--if you choose to move the setting (in place or time), then don't use Garrett.

Tatyana's Flowers
11th May 2009, 15:32
Garrett,who else?! Stephen Russell,of course :)

TazmanianD
11th May 2009, 15:32
I am a huge fan of the Thief series and love Garrett, but I personally would not be unhappy if they moved on to a different story arc and left out Garrett altogether. I don't play Thief over and over because of Garrett, I play because they are great games with great game play. I enjoyed Thief 2x even though the protagonist wasn't Garrett.

That said, I would be very satisfied with another game with Garrett, but I do think that it has to be Stephen Russel. I've played sequels where they changed the voice actor and it really sucks especially if the original actor was so great.

SgtSausagepants
11th May 2009, 15:33
I have to vote for the Apprentice.

Garrett is the one true keeper now. With all those glyph powers, all the challenge would be taken out of playing him. What's the point of a stealth game if the protagonist can turn himself invisible at will?

So here are the options as I see it.

1. The player plays the Apprentice. Garrett is her mentor and is HEAVILY involved. He gives almost all the mission briefings and we hear a LOT of dialogue from Stephen Russell. Perhaps he even tags along on a few missions or comments remotely via glyph magic or steampunk walky talky. Additionally, we need to have a well-cast voice for the apprentice. She has to have as defined a personality as Garrett does.

2. The player is Garrett, but the 'One True Keeper' doesn't get to use the Glyph powers that he protects. I can see this as we never actually saw him use a glyph after the end of Thief 3. Perhaps the Keeper is more of a guardian. The one who determines when humanity is ready for the Glyphs again, but isn't allowed to access most of it for fear of giving that much power to a single being. I would still like to see the apprentice involved in the storyline, however, if this is the case.

Smiffydude
11th May 2009, 15:34
Keep Garrett

Durinda D'Bry
11th May 2009, 15:42
My opinion is that not just Garrett who made Thief game great. There is the City, misterious and gloomy steam punk atmosphere - ancient magic together with raising technologies, bad guy fighting from shadows with good but mostly bad forces... There might be new character but story should not be moved to modern times! There could be Garrett successor but afraid it is hard to avoid cliche with Thef dynasty:)

NathanGPLC
11th May 2009, 15:43
From the perspective of a game developer and an author, clearly Garrett is important to the franchise, but a coherent plot is important to Thief4 specifically. I think I would personally have more fun playing as Garrett than as another thief, but only if the story can accommodate that without bending and breaking the world and the gameplay.

It's worth noting that being powerful doesn't make Garrett unplayable. He's always been powerful; he is perfectly stealthy, can pick any lock, and can carry unbelievable huge amounts of gold--- :rolleyes: --- the only variable factor is player skill. The same can still apply if he has mystical powers; you just need to balance them so they are both necessary to success (basically, they don't just make the game easier/Garrett invulnerable) and require the appropriate level of skill and timing to use.

Blessed be,
~Nathan

Abru
11th May 2009, 15:44
Garrett should remain. Definitely. :)

Necros
11th May 2009, 15:50
Garrett is thief
Garrett is fail safe
Garrett is The thief
Garrett is Stephen Russel
Garrett is what i am going to buy
Do i have to say more?
QFT! :thumb:

I mean, is this really a question? :confused: :rolleyes: Thief = Garrett & Stephen Russell. :cool:

StalinsGhost
11th May 2009, 15:54
My opinion is that not just Garrett who made Thief game great. There is the City, misterious and gloomy steam punk atmosphere - ancient magic together with raising technologies, bad guy fighting from shadows with good but mostly bad forces... There might be new character but story should not be moved to modern times! There could be Garrett successor but afraid it is hard to avoid cliche with Thef dynasty:)

Absolutely agreed. I've always said even if Thief 4 was never made, I would have loved to see a game set in the world it created.

Stocolit
11th May 2009, 16:04
Garrett has to remain the main character WITH Stephen Russell. But, There can always be an other secondary playable character as well. Just.. don't give it to much space. By the way, I DON'T want to see an aged Garrett, don't do like MGS and have a 70 years old Garrett, that would be horrible imo.

BentlyTCow
11th May 2009, 16:05
I think the problem is that a lot of people would like to pretend Deadly Shadows never happened.. like they're waiting to find out what *really* happened after Thief II. If that won't work then maybe the power of the glyphs is failing, etc.

So I guess that's a vote for Garrett/Stephen.

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
11th May 2009, 16:07
QFT! :thumb:

I mean, is this really a question? :confused: :rolleyes: Thief = Garrett & Stephen Russell. :cool:

The fact they're even ASKING this kind of question leads me to believe the game will suck.:hmm:

Oh, and as far as the City - true, but it was Garrett's charisma, personality, personal history and voice that made the whole setting such believable. You can't have one without other, so don't screw the series up by ditching Garrett and replacing him with someone everyone will hate and have problems getting attached to.

TheJoe
11th May 2009, 16:07
Who else could be Thief? "/

TSFroggy
11th May 2009, 16:08
Um, Garrett = only win for the Thief series. Little girl = not so much.

MAYBE alternating between different characters, but Garrett better not die either.

And Stephen Russell is the only good Garrett.

Garrett Vega
11th May 2009, 16:13
I think we should be able to only play as Garrett, but now that he's a keeper he should have improved skills.
The girl would make a nice subplot, with Garrett teaching her and saving from trouble when she screws up.

Goliath The Thief
11th May 2009, 16:15
Anyone played Thief 2 : Shadows of the Metal Age? Fan-made unofficial expansion for Thief 2, with a different character, and totally as awesome as the original games. Anyone with a doubt about having Thief without Garrett should try this to settle their opinion.

http://www.thief2x.com/

Try it, seriously!

Queue2
11th May 2009, 16:15
Garrett is a compelling character, and Thief is his story--the title is not just a brand-name for a series. Regardless of T3 and its events, the story of Garrett can, and should, be continued.

Without Garrett there is no Thief.

Thievingtaffer
11th May 2009, 16:16
Garrett and Stephen Russel are a must. I think it would fatally wound the game if both of those were not the main characters. I remember last year when Eric Brosius was giving a speech at Boston College he was talking about how there are union issues when hiring voice actors, and if I recall correctly, Stephen Russel is not a union voice actor, which means that they could not hire any union voice actors, which puts them in a pickle. But take that for what it's worth: (me possibly misremembering Eric's speech when he was talking about the situation 7 years before that).

But the bottom line is, I'd be totally unenthused about the game without Garrett.

Garrett Vega
11th May 2009, 16:17
Anyone played Thief 2 : Shadows of the Metal Age? Fan-made unofficial expansion for Thief 2, with a different character, and totally as awesome as the original games. Anyone with a doubt about having Thief without Garrett should try this to settle their opinion.

http://www.thief2x.com/

Try it, seriously!

Tried it, didn't like it. Without Garrett it's just not the same.

TSFroggy
11th May 2009, 16:18
Tried it, didn't like it. Without Garrett it's just not the same.

Agreed 100%. Thief 2x was one of the most well done fan mission packs in the world, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still not Garrett in those missions. It simply would not be the same.

Bloodwolf806
11th May 2009, 16:22
Garret needs to return.

HellKittyDan
11th May 2009, 16:35
1. The player plays the Apprentice. Garrett is her mentor and is HEAVILY involved. He gives almost all the mission briefings and we hear a LOT of dialogue from Stephen Russell. Perhaps he even tags along on a few missions or comments remotely via glyph magic or steampunk walky talky. Additionally, we need to have a well-cast voice for the apprentice. She has to have as defined a personality as Garrett does.

My vote is for this. I always imagined Laura Bailey (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1154161/) as voicing the adult version of the girl from the end of DS.

Barsavian
11th May 2009, 16:39
Actually there is one way around not playing garret that would be acceptable, playing as Benny.

Thievingtaffer
11th May 2009, 16:44
T2X was good, but no substitute for Garrett. His 'out for himself' attitude, and quick wit are a staple for the games immersion, atmosphere, and overall feel.

Nate
11th May 2009, 16:47
Just pointing out that being the 'True Keeper' doesn't necessarily give Garrett glyph magic. I think all glyth magic was wiped out at the end of DS.

Besides....since when did Garrett bother to use glyph magic even when it was still available to him.

Bono
11th May 2009, 17:23
I think that Garrett's story is pretty much over.

I will be happy if EM tries to make the game with a new, fresh character, while Garrett remains an important side-character or even a main foe.

qolelis
11th May 2009, 17:30
Being too conservative can also ruin a game. If everything was kept as it always has been why bother with T4, you might as well stick with T1&2.

I have nothing against Garrett per se, but my opinion is that the story of Thief is not the story of Garrett, but rather the story of The City. Sure, Garrett has so far been playing an important role in The City's development, so he should be either in as a secondary character or somehow referenced, if not the main character, but Thief is not about Garrett. I think that The City's story must be told first and foremost, with or without Garrett.

I have no strong opinion for or against Garrett, my only wish is that the developers study The City in T1&2 (and 3 for story at least) and how it has developed, base the story on what they learn and if Garrett fits with the story keep him in, but if not, then leave him out (I like Garrett, so I would still want him being referenced, though).

If you keep Garrett in, be sure to study his character's development through the trilogy.

In many FMs Garrett is sort of a legend, especially among guards. Everyone seems to know about him, but few have actually seen him. Using Garrett as the main character once again may ruin the mystery and the magic.

I feel that the story of Garrett ended when the trilogy ended, at least as a main character.

For example this:

1. The player plays the Apprentice. Garrett is her mentor and is HEAVILY involved. He gives almost all the mission briefings and we hear a LOT of dialogue from Stephen Russell. Perhaps he even tags along on a few missions or comments remotely via glyph magic or steampunk walky talky. Additionally, we need to have a well-cast voice for the apprentice. She has to have as defined a personality as Garrett does.

StalinsGhost
11th May 2009, 17:48
Being too conservative can also ruin a game. If everything was kept as it always has been why bother with T4, you might as well stick with T1&2.

I have nothing against Garrett per se, but my opinion is that the story of Thief is not the story of Garrett, but rather the story of The City. Sure, Garrett has so far been playing an important role in The City's development, so he should be either in as a secondary character or somehow referenced, if not the main character, but Thief is not about Garrett. I think that The City's story must be told first and foremost, with or without Garrett.

I have no strong opinion for or against Garrett, my only wish is that the developers study The City in T1&2 (and 3 for story at least) and how it has developed, base the story on what they learn and if Garrett fits with the story keep him in, but if not, then leave him out (I like Garrett, so I would still want him being referenced, though).

If you keep Garrett in, be sure to study his character's development through the trilogy.

In many FMs Garrett is sort of a legend, especially among guards. Everyone seems to know about him, but few have actually seen him. Using Garrett as the main character once again may ruin the mystery and the magic.

I feel that the story of Garrett ended when the trilogy ended, at least as a main character.


More or less exactly how I feel, particularly regarding Garrett as a legend in the city. In many ways, I feel Garrett's story as the protagonist has run its course. How many times can Garrett honestly save the city despite not really wanting to before it gets old? I want Thief 4 to use the license, not sell out by whacking Stephen Russel in a new mad-hat adventure around The City and call it Thief 4.

Garrett must be in it. And any replacement must be as well designed a character. The series must keep pushing the boundaries as it always has.

Nate
11th May 2009, 17:52
Well, maybe Garrett is pissed with everybody for using him and trying to rip him off all the time. Maybe we get to play Garrett this time as the one who is out to destroy the city. lol

StalinsGhost
11th May 2009, 17:56
Destroy the city? Garrett doesn't care nearly enough about the City for that! :D:D

He reminds me of Omar in the Wire really. He'll rip off the corrupt arseholes in the community, but at the end of the day, he's a part of the city, and couldn't live without it. That and his legendary mystique. If anyone's seen the Wire, there's an episode where kids in the street emulate Omar - that's what I would personally like to see. A character who's grown up seeing Garrett as some sort of legendary anti-Heroic figure who they seek to emulate without really understanding until they pick up his trail. Thus, T4 would infact revolve around Garrett without being him. Sounds good to me.

The best bit about it: You know Garrett would despite all that insipid hero-worship!

Crazyechidna
11th May 2009, 18:00
Garrett must be a playable character in the game. It isn't a Thief game without Garrett; that being said, I like the idea of having another playable character (many have talked about the girl). It would be really cool if the successes of Garrett's mission(s) affect the mission of the other playable character and/or vice versa. Ex: Steal from a bank's vault early in the game causes the bank's vault to have added security and/or guards later in the game.

Still, Garrett must be the main character. If any other characters are playable, they should compose only one or two main missions or they should be optional/bonus missions.

Noceur
11th May 2009, 18:07
Playing as Garrett is a huge part of the franchise, though.

How would they replace him without changing the mood set by his remarks and narration? And on top of that, they can't replace him with a clone... then they might've just kept Garrett.

In fact, I think they should.

Nate
11th May 2009, 18:17
It wouldn't be the same without Garrett in a dark corner saying things like 'people suck!', 'friendship sucks!', 'you all suck!', and 'you suck, so I am going to take all your stuff!'. hehe

imported_van_HellSing
11th May 2009, 18:25
The industry has grown up, so some changes were necessary. The protagonist will now be called Garr4tt.

zeitshabba
11th May 2009, 18:25
The personality of Garrett makes the charm of the game become an addiction. His bitter & biting commentary is priceless. But as its been said ad nausem, you cannot simply make another Thief with Garrett and without some cracked-out-beyond-the-X-files plot insanity to make it work.

What if the Thief story was retold, from the beginning, in a modern setting? The ability to retell the original story in a bad-ass revamping could be fantastic. For those who didn't catch the Thief bandwagon the first time around, this would be perfect. For the hardcore fans, they could expand upon the original storyline in depth and breadth regarding the relationships of everyone involved in the trilogy right from the beginning. Who would be the modern-day Keepers? Pagans? It could be fun...

Just an idea to try & reconcile the desire for more Garrett without a craptacular storyline.

Thievingtaffer
11th May 2009, 18:44
Wait I have a question.
This quote comes from jtr over on the other forums:

Thief 4 A Long Way Off, No Systems Announced
11 May 2009 at 16:10:32 by Tim McDonald

Thief 4 is still very early in development, with no word of what systems it will be shipping on yet.

We spoke to Stéphane D'Astous, the general manager of Eidos-Montreal, who told us that the game has "been in the concept phase for approximately five to six months."

"In the world of gaming, there are mainly three phases - the concept, pre-production, and production - and right now we've reached our goals with the conceptual base, the story."

"We're going to be hiring approximately 40 people over the next six months - artists, programmers, designers, all the works. They'll be working on the next phase, which will be pre-production, so it's too early right now to mention any kind of a release window or SKUs that we'll be working on."

Personally, I can't imagine Thief not shipping on PC, and considering D'Astous also spoke about technology and hardware I'd imagine it'll appear on the more powerful consoles. For more on that, though, you'll have to wait for our full interview, which will be up later today.
This would suggest that the concept phase is over, which means that the story is written. If the story is written then EM already knows who the main character will be, making this thread nothing more than people wishing what it will be. I know they can't just come out and tell us just yet, but it still makes this thread feel a little useless.

nicked
11th May 2009, 19:00
There are so many bad ideas in this thread it's difficult to comprehend.

If Garrett isn't the player character of Thief 4, I won't buy it, play it, or acknowledge it exists.

Actually I will play it just so I can have an informed opinion with which to launch tirades against how terrible it is.

WhatsHisFace
11th May 2009, 19:05
It honestly would not make sense to have Garrett come back as the main character. His story arch was concluded brilliantly with the ending of Thief 3. Bringing him back would just cheapen the whole thing... like a bad buddy-cop movie.

StalinsGhost
11th May 2009, 19:09
Honestly, can someone please tell me why Garrett has to be the playable character? The Thief series has got a lot more going for it than one character, as good as that character is. And in narrative terms, it would require some dramatic changes to put him back in an appartment struggling to pay the rent - and that's who Garrett has always been. Up until T3's conclusion, which I might add, felt logical given all that had happened in all the games.

Now, I will agree, Garrett as a character must be in the game. But as a protagonist, I think it's time to mix it up.

abr4
11th May 2009, 19:12
I wrote this in another forum before the announcement and subsequently before I saw this thread, but it fits perfectly in here as a response:

"Didn't know about the ending of the 3rd Thief, didn't even get halfway through it, because it was highly lacking in the magic which made the first two special. I couldn't name it for sure nowadays, but when I played it years back I never connected with that game. It was almost as if I was pretending to play a thief game.

A female thief as a foster child of Garrett who'd be the mentor in a fourth game might be a nice refreshing twist on the franchise, if they can get her just as cynical and sinister as Garrett used to be. I'd probably enjoy it more than if they tried to recreate the atmosphere of the first two games and failed (which I pretty much expect them to)."

So, yeah I vote for the girl to be the new protagonist, but she'd have to be somewhat seasoned, like in her early twenties. Nothing worse to a game than an adolescent main character who grows up over the course of the game.

And, repeating myself to stress the importance of this, she'd have to be as cynical as Garrett was for this to be any fun.

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
11th May 2009, 19:12
There are so many bad ideas in this thread it's difficult to comprehend.

If Garrett isn't the player character of Thief 4, I won't buy it, play it, or acknowledge it exists.

Actually I will play it just so I can have an informed opinion with which to launch tirades against how terrible it is.

Same here. If Garrett is not the main character, they might as well shove this game up their [censored]. I won't touch it, let alone buy it.


It honestly would not make sense to have Garrett come back as the main character. His story arch was concluded brilliantly with the ending of Thief 3. Bringing him back would just cheapen the whole thing... like a bad buddy-cop movie.

One could argue - why make Thief 4 at all? The story is over, the glyphs are gone, Hammerites and Pagans are happy yadda yadda. But Thief 4 is being made. And it's called THIEF 4.
That means something.


And, repeating myself to stress the importance of this, she'd have to be as cynical as Garrett was for this to be any fun.

Then why BOTHER with a new character at all? Is that what we want? Garrett with tits?

StalinsGhost
11th May 2009, 19:15
Well indeed. You could argue why make Thief 4 at all. I've been thinking the same thing ever since the cutscenes rolled at the end of TDS.

But if anything, that means there's more to Thief than Garrett's story to be told. There was a lot more to Thief, than Garrett.

nicked
11th May 2009, 19:18
Honestly, can someone please tell me why Garrett has to be the playable character? The Thief series has got a lot more going for it than one character, as good as that character is.

It'd be like making an Indiana Jones movie starring Shia LeBoeuf and without Harrison Ford in it. The city can be as atmospheric and wonderful as you like, but seeing it through the eyes of anyone but Garrett will cheapen the whole thing.

I'd accept any ridiculously contrived plot points to get Garrett as main character, over ditching him for the little girl from the end of Thief 3, which frankly was just a fourth-wall-breaking nod to the audience and not meant to be taken seriously as a major plot point.

Here's one for you: a prequel. Plenty of stuff Garrett could get up to after he's left the Keepers but before the events of Thief 1.

StalinsGhost
11th May 2009, 19:21
Yeah, a prequel would certainly work - though they'ed have to avoid any real entanglement with the Pagans and Keepers - the former of which doesn't reveal itself to TTDP, and the latter of which Garrett doesn't have anything to do with until TTDP.

In a lot of ways, I'd actually like to see a remake of TTDP actually. But I'm probably in a minority there.

Regarding cheapening a sequel, I actually think having Garrett as the protagonist does that. It's sort of like making a sequel to Bioshock where you play a big-daddy because it was the poster boy of the first game... oh wait.

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
11th May 2009, 19:31
I'd accept any ridiculously contrived plot points to get Garrett as main character, over ditching him for the little girl from the end of Thief 3, which frankly was just a fourth-wall-breaking nod to the audience and not meant to be taken seriously as a major plot point.


THIS. THIS.
That's something I already pointed out - the ending of DS has a symbolic meaning, it was a wink-wink for fans of the series.

I like the Indiana Jones comparison. Saying that Garrett is not needed is like saying Indy isn't needed because "the series have always been about treasure hunting anyway" - just as stupid.

ByLaw
11th May 2009, 19:34
Here's one idea on how to resolve this:
Garrett takes his protege under his wing, teaches her the tricks, just as the Keepers did for him, and she shows great promise. Then, just as Garrett left the keepers, the protege leaves him, only for something far more sinister - perhaps a shadow organization that replaces the Keepers (which I believe pretty much self-destructed, did they not?). She becomes involved in as either the central figure or a tool in the plot that unfolds, and becomes Garrett's nemesis. An older Garrett, world-weary but skilled as ever and still the loner - burned by the experience of trying to work with someone when he knows he works better alone - gets caught up and eventually exposes the plot and faces his protege/nemesis in a thief-on-thief final level of cat and mouse.

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
11th May 2009, 19:37
The whole idea of an apprentice is just cliche and stupid. Hooray, another "Anakin Skywalker/Obi Wan" (evil version) or "Luke Skywalker/Obi Wan or Yoda" (good version). Seriously, HELL NO!

HellKittyDan
11th May 2009, 19:37
So, yeah I vote for the girl to be the new protagonist, but she'd have to be somewhat seasoned, like in her early twenties. Nothing worse to a game than an adolescent main character who grows up over the course of the game.

Someone in their early twenties is still just a kid, certainly not someone you'd consider a seasoned cynic.

GmanPro
11th May 2009, 19:41
I can't believe people actually want to play as someone other than Garrett. Its mind boggling. Thief games are all about immersion. You need to be one character and you need to stay in first person (I never used 3rd person in T3).

nicked
11th May 2009, 19:42
I can't believe people actually want to play as someone other than Garrett. Its mind boggling.

This. It makes my head spin.

Draz
11th May 2009, 19:46
Garrett of course. Anyone else would just be a poor substitute.

benny
11th May 2009, 19:48
I personally think that the ending for TDS tied things up well enough that I wouldn't disturb it or try to extend the story line beyond that. I think that in order to be Thief, it has to have Garrett (and Russell as the voice). If the Thief storyline had other characters that were really prominent in it (that were thieves), you could justify passing the torch to a new one. But the girl (?) at the ending of TDS is too weak of a connection to really branch off that way. I think Marla would be a better option actually. :nut:

With that line of thinking I'd have to say that the best setting would be previous to TDS sometime and again have it be centered on Garrett. So a prequel is an option. I think I'd even like it set in between some of the previous titles but I don't know of any games that have tried that, it might be too confusing. Seems all anyone does is prequel/sequel.

I am one of the minority too that would love a remake of TDP/TMA. Normally I'd be critical of something along those lines as simply being lazy, but we are talking about over a decade since the release of TDP I believe. And it is nice for EM because they have levels/plot/characters already designed they just need to update them and put their own creative contributions to them. Besides, it is a tried and tested success.

My $0.02

StalinsGhost
11th May 2009, 19:48
I don't like the apprentice idea. Garrett wouldn't take an apprentice.

Platinumoxicity
11th May 2009, 19:52
I'd say that although this game would have to be exceptionally good to out-do Thief 2, it absolutely, positively must out-do TDS. Don't let this game be worse than TDS by taking Garrett out. The series doesn't deserve that after the dissappointments we experienced with TDS. It's like ripping the feet off a fly who's wings have already been ripped off.

Orest Reinn
11th May 2009, 19:53
Garrett in Thief 4 would remind me making once another and another part of Rocky's adventures. Let Garrett remain a legend and give us another character.

And one more thing: please don't make saving the world aim of the game...

nicked
11th May 2009, 20:01
What are you talking about? Rocky 4 was fantastic!

I'd also be interested in a remake of Thief 1, in a Tomb Raider Anniversary kinda way. I'd like to see Constantine's mansion in a modern engine that can handle Prey-like gravity bending and stuff like that. You could end up with the most awesome LSD-trip of a level ever.

StalinsGhost
11th May 2009, 20:02
Definitely. Any number of TDP's levels would be outstanding in a new engine.

nicked
11th May 2009, 20:06
Assuming the game isn't a remake, I'd still be very interested in seeing these missions return to the story. Most of my favourite missions from the originals are two-parters (that is to say, you revisit them later). Haunted Cathedral/Return to the Cathedral, The Lost City/Kidnap, The Sword/Escape, Undercover/Strange Bedfellows.

That was my single biggest disappointment with Thief Deadly Shadows, not being able to revisit a favourite location or two in a shiny new engine. There are infinite ways to incorporate classic levels into a new story, so please put at least one in! My vote would be Bafford's Manor or Cragscleft, for an ultimate nostalgia trip!

raindawg
11th May 2009, 20:09
The player plays the Apprentice. Garrett is her mentor and is HEAVILY involved. He gives almost all the mission briefings and we hear a LOT of dialogue from Stephen Russell. Perhaps he even tags along on a few missions
This is the best idea so far, imo.

I defenitely don't like the idea of multiple playable characters, that would just mess up the narrative.

Orest Reinn
11th May 2009, 20:23
What are you talking about? Rocky 4 was fantastic!
First Rocky was fantastic ;] Poor boxer, trying to make his living in a gritty big city realm was great. Wealthy and famous Rocky owning a huge house is a negation of it.

arkhanari
11th May 2009, 20:31
Yes. Keep Garret and hire Stephen Russel.

Prospekt1125
11th May 2009, 20:36
Someone in their early twenties is still just a kid, certainly not someone you'd consider a seasoned cynic.

I agree completely. Let's face it folks, Garret makes the Thief series as great as it is. I won't say the game would be terrible without him, but it would definitely not be the same experience.

StalinsGhost
11th May 2009, 20:53
I dunno. I quite like the idea of starting out as some optimistic little wannabe, only to have the reality drilled into their skull through experiencing Garrett's harsh cynical realism, and the darkness of the City as you follow his trail.

ToMegaTherion
11th May 2009, 20:56
A prequel might be a reasonable idea (this could also help us avoid save-the-world storylines). Otherwise, a return of Garrett would seem a bit out of place. Any replacement character should still be non-heroic while remaining sympathetic.

Attachment to our favourite hero shouldn't let us be forced down the path to poor storylines. Unless Garrett can be returned without creating cliched stories (especially of the save-the-world variety) it might be time for him to take a supporting role, or none at all.

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
11th May 2009, 21:02
Garrett (voiced by no one else then Stephen Russell) should of course play a prominent part of the next instalment. However its important to remember that his story has narratively reached a certain point (being the true keeper and apparently taken on the role of a mentor) from where you hardly can go back to the old routine. The story must acknowledge that he is no longer the man he once was when he left the keepers. Indeed, Garret started out as the non-willing hero that always just wanted to be left alone but was forced to step up because of what not only was forced upon him personally, he was the only one with the skills to prevent cataclysmic and disastrous events. Its noticeable how this has changed Garrett over the instalments, like how he actually is able to connect with people and show concern despite being the eternal cynic. In other words, Garrett is no longer primarily a thief (unless he is trying to reject his probably inescapable "fate").

I think it would be a fitting scenario that Garrett must use his skills one last time (which of course involve stealing/removing stuff from certain locations) to play the role of the true keeper (protecting "the balance" of the world) and I think that his apprentice (the girl mat mirrored himself as a young boy from the last scene in deadly shadows) should have a important role to play (but I think its important that she is not a Garrett-clone when it comes to game play).

rhialto
11th May 2009, 21:13
Garret is a great character. And if he isn't in the game in some capacity, I will far less interested in the game.

However, he does not belong to those of you demanding his return in big angry capitols. He was taken through a very specific journey over the course of the trilogy, and came out a different person on the other end.

If Eidos decides to go with the mentor/student concept, they will actually be respecting the franchise, storyline and themes of the previous games more than angry internet fanpeople over-invested in the character.

StalinsGhost
11th May 2009, 21:19
Agreed there rhialto. Garrett, as a character changed more and more as the series went on. He's by no means now some kind of benevolent leader or anything like that. Infact, he probably resents the burden placed on him at TDS's close - and I think the best way to explore that is to do so from the outside where we're told right on the outside "this sucks".

I don't really want to boot up Thi4f with the line "It sucks being the sole keeper of the glyphs, so I'm gonna get me Lord Bingly Chickenworths Golden Phat Lute to pay the rent". It would be cheap. It would be totally and utterly selling out on the Thief name. Something a little more complex, please. Garrett's not only a myth in game, he's one to the player as well. I think it would be genuinely great to see them approach it from that angle.

Platinumoxicity
11th May 2009, 21:21
Garrett has always been very indifferent about all that's happening in the world. He only acts when it is in his own interests, and him becoming the "one true keeper" only strenghtens his way of thinking. Now that there are no dark prophecies to be afraid of, he couldn't care less about the world if he tried. He has finally reached the point that he has always strived for: To be left alone by the keepers. The world doesn't need anyone to keep the balance anymore. The world is in perfect balance since Garrett got rid of the useless "balancers". I think the ending of T3 didn't affect Garrett in any way that would make him less "thiefy". In fact it made his selfish motives far more acceptable when he no longer bears any relevance anymore.

So all this talk about Garrett taking the role of the "ultimate keeper of balance in the world" is just plain nonsense. I think the main lesson of T3 was that the world is changing to a more organised place, where no-one has to be there to keep it from falling apart on itself. The world was just too afraid of itself to see that, and Garrett was the only one that could finally point it out.;)

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
11th May 2009, 21:32
Garrett has always been very indifferent about all that's happening in the world. He only acts when it is in his own interests, and him becoming the "one true keeper" only strenghtens his way of thinking. Now that there are no dark prophecies to be afraid of, he couldn't care less about the world if he tried. He has finally reached the point that he has always strived for: To be left alone by the keepers. The world doesn't need anyone to keep the balance anymore. The world is in perfect balance since Garrett got rid of the useless "balancers". I think the ending of T3 didn't affect Garrett in any way that would make him less "thiefy". In fact it made his selfish motives far more acceptable when he no longer bears any relevance anymore.

So all this talk about Garrett taking the role of the "ultimate keeper of balance in the world" is just plain nonsense. I think the main lesson of T3 was that the world is changing to a more organised place, where no-one has to be there to keep it from falling apart on itself. The world was just too afraid of itself to see that, and Garrett was the only one that could finally point it out.;)

Exactly.
In fact, the last thing we need is another boring, tired, cliche "the master and an overzealous apprentice that refuses to obey him" story. This is not Star Wars.

Garrett's there, the world moves on, the man's got to eat. Limitless possibilities from there.

rhialto
11th May 2009, 21:33
Yeah... I really don't know about that. You're saying that Garrett isn't the "ultimate keeper of balance in the world" but he spends three games doing exactly that. I don't think it's reasonable to say the world's any safer after Thief 3 either. If anything, all three games show that a madman or supernatural force could lay waste to the city any day of the week.

StalinsGhost
11th May 2009, 21:44
Exactly.
In fact, the last thing we need is another boring, tired, cliche "the master and an overzealous apprentice that refuses to obey him" story. This is not Star Wars.

Garrett's there, the world moves on, the man's got to eat. Limitless possibilities from there.

Disagreed. Not on the master/apprentice thing. I advocate having you play someone that wants to emulate/find Garrett, only to have the man hammer the brutal truth of who he is as opposed to the legend that has surrounded his persona.

But I disagree on the "mans gotta eat" bit. While true, the "steal stuff for the first 3 missions before getting dragged into the almighty conspiracy to destroy the city" was getting tenuous in T3.


Garrett has always been very indifferent about all that's happening in the world. He only acts when it is in his own interests, and him becoming the "one true keeper" only strenghtens his way of thinking. Now that there are no dark prophecies to be afraid of, he couldn't care less about the world if he tried. He has finally reached the point that he has always strived for: To be left alone by the keepers. The world doesn't need anyone to keep the balance anymore. The world is in perfect balance since Garrett got rid of the useless "balancers". I think the ending of T3 didn't affect Garrett in any way that would make him less "thiefy". In fact it made his selfish motives far more acceptable when he no longer bears any relevance anymore.

So all this talk about Garrett taking the role of the "ultimate keeper of balance in the world" is just plain nonsense. I think the main lesson of T3 was that the world is changing to a more organised place, where no-one has to be there to keep it from falling apart on itself. The world was just too afraid of itself to see that, and Garrett was the only one that could finally point it out.

So yeah, disagreed here too. T3 was pretty unspecific as to what had happened. But Garrett had clearly taken on the role prophecised. My guess is the powers that be will be on the hunt for Garrett*. It would be much more interesting to follow his attempts to keep going from an unclear perspective.

*
T1 - An Excess of Chaos/Nature
T2 - An Excess of Order/Technology
T3 - An Excess of Balance
T4 - An Excess of the one which unites all three - Garrett.

Platinumoxicity
11th May 2009, 21:49
Yeah... I really don't know about that. You're saying that Garrett isn't the "ultimate keeper of balance in the world" but he spends three games doing exactly that. I don't think it's reasonable to say the world's any safer after Thief 3 either. If anything, all three games show that a madman or supernatural force could lay waste to the city any day of the week.

I was referring to someone else that had a different conception about Garrett's position after the ending of T3. My point was that he didn't get any super powers and no-one else got any either. The City matured a little and it doesn't need any sinister forces to protect itself against other sinister forces. Garrett is back at the start, picking pockets in the streets to keep his ribs from meeting his spine. :)

rhialto
11th May 2009, 21:53
Well... he has the Keeper semi-invisibility power. And a mysterious glyph on his hand. And he calls himself a Keeper now.

That seems like a pretty big deal.

rhialto
11th May 2009, 21:58
double post

Platinumoxicity
11th May 2009, 21:58
Well... he has the Keeper semi-invisibility power. And a mysterious glyph on his hand. And he calls himself a Keeper now.

That seems like a pretty big deal.

I always thought that power was an illusion, because I have that power too. :D
And he always had that power, to not be seen when he doesn't wish to be seen?

rhialto
11th May 2009, 22:03
Let me put this another way. Basically you're saying that there are no more supernatural threats to the City, and I can kinda see where that's coming from because of the whole trilogy thing, but if there's going to be a fourth game that's pretty obviously not going to be true.

Second of all you're saying that Garret doesn't fulfill the prophecy and become the Keeper at the end of the third game. However, this is both exactly what happens and exactly what he calls himself.

I mean I can see him still stealing to eat and keep his skills up, but your conclusion as to what happens to Garret the end of the third game is essentially the opposite what actually happens.

okih
11th May 2009, 22:06
i think it would be awesome playing as a 60 year old keeper. oh, an add a stamina bar as well for when he gets tired! also, we could have random arthritis spasms in the hands that would cause garrett to fail mantles when jumping to a balcony or drop his blackjack just as he swings it! anti-sleep potions seem like a viable option as well.
ah for the girl we could tackle a whole new set of problems (cause we know all about them when we're married like i am)! "we need to go on this mission, tonight!" "Oh, GOD. NOT tonight! Just get me some damned chocolates and tylenol..."

i can really see the possibilities of realism coming into the light (pardon the pun ah ha ha) for this next greatest installment of THIEF FOUR! Yea! Definitely market this game towards children in the range of 10 to 12. Also, PU-LEASE make this a CONSOLE ONLY game (we don't need those nasty bugs originating from the PC version like in Thief 3!).

totally excited about this one boys! i can not wait. garrett is my favorite video game character. i would post a link to my fanfics but i don't think that would be proper for my first post ^_^.

Good Gaming! Because the game is not OVER!

NewUser2
11th May 2009, 22:07
I think the game should be like 1,2 and 3 with garret only. (And first person vision)
The little girl form T3 should be in the story but you should not be able to play her i think.

I hope they make the game very mutch like 1,2,3 cus they all vere great games that i really love and still play sometimes.


-Sorry for my bad spelling-

MistaDamajah
11th May 2009, 22:13
Its an interesting conundrum to say the least about the possible protagonist. I would have to say that for me "Thief" is Garret. However, I will add that given the ending of T3DS it would make sense for a new protagonist to take light(but in the shadows of course). If there was a way to create a narrative that ties with the previous 3 games (Hammerites, Mechanists etc.) and keep Garret in the forefront then that is absolutely the option I would go with. If the powers that be feel otherwise, I am still going to get it, because it will be a fantastic stealth game.

Platinumoxicity
11th May 2009, 22:13
It's just my opinion, but I think that excluding the prophecies written in the books, the so called "powers" of the keepers were more "metaphorical" than actual magic powers. They were too confident about their impact on the world and the developers of T3 misunderstood their real stature. So I can clearly understand why some of you who like to keep the ending of T3 as relevant as the happenings of the former games. That's why, in my opinion, Garrett hasn't really changed, and frankly, it would strongly go against his nature. He doesn't want to be involved in big things.

Garrett21
11th May 2009, 22:15
Garrett is who i think about when thief is mentioned the voice the actions there is no Thief w/o Garrett,however i just recently got my wife playing Thief she has played and beat T2X and TDS she enjoyed T2X more i think you would benefit greatly with maybe an option of Garrett or a female character as playable maybe after you have beaten main game with Garrett by doing this i think you would get more female gamers into this genre..

Platinumoxicity
11th May 2009, 22:18
Garrett is who i think about when thief is mentioned the voice the actions there is no Thief w/o Garrett,however i just recently got my wife playing Thief she has played and beat T2X and TDS she enjoyed T2X more i think you would benefit greatly with maybe an option of Garrett or a female character as playable maybe after you have beaten main game with Garrett by doing this i think you would get more female gamers into this genre..

But chicks love the good ol' Garrett! :D

rhialto
11th May 2009, 22:18
It's just my opinion, but I think that excluding the prophecies written in the books, the so called "powers" of the keepers were more "metaphorical" than actual magic powers. They were too confident about their impact on the world and the developers of T3 misunderstood their real stature. So I can clearly understand why some of you who like to keep the ending of T3 as relevant as the happenings of the former games. That's why, in my opinion, Garrett hasn't really changed, and frankly, it would strongly go against his nature. He doesn't want to be involved in big things.

I think enough people carried over from Looking Glass that they still get to define the game world that they created. They can't really "misunderstand" it. Also, the the Thief series has never been huge when it comes to subtle applications of the supernatural.

Gan Xodos
11th May 2009, 22:20
The thief in Thief IS GARRET.
The girl was a ghost she's dead and her soul is at rest too so I'm sure she won't have part in Thief 4

cimerians
11th May 2009, 22:21
I also vote for Garrett to be in this game and also the little girl in TDS. I loved the Xbox game and thought she and certain other parts of the game were fantastic.

I really hope this game is similar to the older ones because it worked well. Dont change it too much, just improve on the older games.

rhialto
11th May 2009, 22:26
The thief in Thief IS GARRET.
The girl was a ghost she's dead and her soul is at rest too so I'm sure she won't have part in Thief 4

I think maybe you need to go watch the end of the game again.

imported_van_HellSing
11th May 2009, 22:28
I think maybe you need to go watch the end of the game again.

He generally needs to play any of the games. He seems to think the protagonist is called Garret.

Platinumoxicity
11th May 2009, 22:30
I think enough people carried over from Looking Glass that they still get to define the game world that they created. They can't really "misunderstand" it. Also, the the Thief series has never been huge when it comes to subtle applications of the supernatural.

That doesn't change the fact that Garrett becoming an "über keeper" would clearly go against his true nature, which we all have gotten a very clear picture of during the past games. Making him care about things that are none of his personal business is, in my opinion, changing him too much. Might as well change the voice actor as well then. Wouldn't make it any worse in that situation. And don't tell me that he has no choice about his current status. He's Garrett! He can escape fate too.

"You cannot run from life, like you ran from us, Garrett. Life has a way of finfing you, no matter how artistic a sneak you are." -Yeah, but I can choose the way I live it, no matter how much your prophecies want to turn me into a douche. :D

imported_van_HellSing
11th May 2009, 22:33
Thing is, he doesn't really need to care all that much. It's enough he stops running from it - he'll be doing what he usually does, stealing stuff and saving the world in the process.

Platinumoxicity
11th May 2009, 22:38
Thing is, he doesn't really need to care all that much. It's enough he stops running from it - he'll be doing what he usually does, stealing stuff and saving the world in the process.

"I accidentally the world... again. As I knew I would. As it had to be" :nut:

rhialto
11th May 2009, 22:40
That doesn't change the fact that Garrett becoming an "über keeper" would clearly go against his true nature, which we all have gotten a very clear picture of during the past games. Making him care about things that are none of his personal business is, in my opinion, changing him too much. Might as well change the voice actor as well then. Wouldn't make it any worse in that situation. And don't tell me that he has no choice about his current status. He's Garrett! He can escape fate too.

"You cannot run from life, like you ran from us, Garrett. Life has a way of finfing you, no matter how artistic a sneak you are." -Yeah, but I can choose the way I live it, no matter how much your prophecies want to turn me into a douche. :D

He spent the last three games saving the world. Whether from self-interest or not. He could continue to keep an eye on things from self-interest.

If you want Garrett to remain a loner with no responsibilities who doesn't involve himself in supernatural matters, I guess you can play the first few missions of Thief 1 over and over if you like. I mean, clearly those are the only real parts of the series, and the people who actually wrote and made the games don't know as well as you.

Dia1
11th May 2009, 22:41
I just can't imagine a Thief game without Garrett being the main character. Sure, at the end of TDS the little girl makes the whole Garrett saga come full circle, but I really wouldn't enjoy playing a little girl thief at all. The thought of choosing which character you'll play kind of worries me too; it would be too Morrowind/Oblivion-like (not that there was anything wrong with either game, mind you).

Imo, it just wouldn't be Thief without Garrett. And Stephen Russell, of course. ;)

imported_van_HellSing
11th May 2009, 22:41
Platinumoxicity - You're going down the "keeper balance fanatic" road again. I'm thinking more like "I have a simple job planned for this evening. Nah, who am I kidding, I'll probably end up saving the world again. Oh well, there's loot!"

Mshade
11th May 2009, 22:43
Garrett obviously.

About the girl, she's an orphan and used to take care of herself. Garrett is not a babysitter and his life and story shouldn't end because she wants to train her.

column5
11th May 2009, 22:45
Thief and Garrett are inseparable in my view. If they choose to introduce a new character, I will be disappointed, but I will keep an open mind and at least try to come to terms with it.

I just hope they stick with G. Really.

Gan Xodos
11th May 2009, 22:48
I think maybe you need to go watch the end of the game again.

oh THAT girl, riiight... I thought you meant the ghost of Lauryl :o

imported_van_HellSing
11th May 2009, 22:49
Having Lauryl as the main character would bring a whole new meaning to "ghosting" though :P

Platinumoxicity
11th May 2009, 22:50
Yeah, I should probably go to sleep now. I just wanted to point out (In a 2 page long debate where I pretend to know everything ) that making Garrett conciously keep an eye on the happenings of the world that have no bearing on him whatsoever would change him too much.

There's always two sides of the debate. The ones who like Garrett more as a thief and the ones who like him more as a savior.
Yeah, I should probably go to sleep now.

Gan Xodos
11th May 2009, 23:05
me too XD

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
11th May 2009, 23:11
Garrett has always been very indifferent about all that's happening in the world. He only acts when it is in his own interests, and him becoming the "one true keeper" only strenghtens his way of thinking. Now that there are no dark prophecies to be afraid of, he couldn't care less about the world if he tried. He has finally reached the point that he has always strived for: To be left alone by the keepers. The world doesn't need anyone to keep the balance anymore. The world is in perfect balance since Garrett got rid of the useless "balancers". I think the ending of T3 didn't affect Garrett in any way that would make him less "thiefy". In fact it made his selfish motives far more acceptable when he no longer bears any relevance anymore.

So all this talk about Garrett taking the role of the "ultimate keeper of balance in the world" is just plain nonsense. I think the main lesson of T3 was that the world is changing to a more organised place, where no-one has to be there to keep it from falling apart on itself. The world was just too afraid of itself to see that, and Garrett was the only one that could finally point it out.;)

1)If you pay attention you will notice that Garrett does not only do completely self-serving stuff, he is just above all things else a man who does not like to be bossed around and has developed and attitude to help him with that. He does not have a heart of gold, true, but its not of stone either.

2)You mean that the true keeper is just an empty title or a false prophecy? Remember that the keepers were only a temporary substitute for the true keeper. It must have some meaning. (no I am not talking about him being some harmonic jedi grandmaster or anything like that)

Crypto
11th May 2009, 23:19
Garrett and no other. If James Bond is anyone to go by, he's just hitting his prime years (assuming Garrett's approaching or already in his forties).

One parenthetical remark. Two sentences. 1:2 parenthesis:sentence ratio is not good.

Palmberg
12th May 2009, 00:40
Cant believe this discussion is still going strong...
It would be a huge mistake to replace Garrett, and there is no need for a 2nd character neither.

Espion
12th May 2009, 01:37
I can't really remember the girl from Thief DS but as I recall Garrett became a Keeper at the end of it? Rather than him being a mentor to anyone, it strikes me as much more in character for Garrett to be taking advantage of his new position to his own gain... Until of course he winds up getting involved in something bigger and deadlier. Mentoring? Doesn't sound like Garrett at all.

Dia1
12th May 2009, 02:38
I can't really remember the girl from Thief DS but as I recall Garrett became a Keeper at the end of it? Rather than him being a mentor to anyone, it strikes me as much more in character for Garrett to be taking advantage of his new position to his own gain... Until of course he winds up getting involved in something bigger and deadlier. Mentoring? Doesn't sound like Garrett at all.

I agree Espion; I doubt that Garrett would willingly take on the responsibility of another soul, especially that of a child. As you said, unless he uses the mentoring to take advantage of a situation or inadvertently gets involved in something bigger that just happens to include his mentoring someone. Otherwise, Garrett's always been pretty much a lone wolf who doesn't like anyone exercising their authority over him.

CurtX
12th May 2009, 02:47
I'm reminded of Metal Gear Solid 2, and how many MGS fans were not pleased to have to play as Raiden for the majority of the game.

Botlas
12th May 2009, 06:16
I'd prefer Garrett, but then again, if the story ends up sucking I'd prefer it weren't Garrett. There's a lot of backtracking and explanation involved if they're going to use Garrett, after the events of Deadly Shadows. It doesn't really make sense for him to go about his normal business at that point (and he does have special powers at that stage too, which might make things a little too easy).

I'm really more concerned about the story overall. If they can pull off a good story with a new character, that still fits in with the themes and style of the previous games (more specifically, the first two) then I'd be happy. The problem with a new character is that Garrett is such an iconic character. He'd overshadow any new character you introduced.

Necros
12th May 2009, 06:21
The fact they're even ASKING this kind of question leads me to believe the game will suck.:hmm:
I think they already know if he'll be back or not (and I bet we'll play as Garrett), they just want to know the fans' opinions.

My guess is the powers that be will be on the hunt for Garrett*. It would be much more interesting to follow his attempts to keep going from an unclear perspective.
That's a good idea, more focus on the City Watch and the nobles.

gagatek
12th May 2009, 07:14
Having a girl as new "the Great Master Thief" could be really interesting. :D
Especially with Garret as her supervisor...
Personally I would love such option - to have Garret's student, a mysterious girl as a character, but still to have (at least) some levels with Garret.
That would open a whole lots of possibilities for plot - and would let to have at least a part of a game with Garret as main character.

I'd hate a total Garret's replacement though... he's the heart of the series. I just could sacrifice the "I work alone" part for the sake a plot. :)

THIEF
12th May 2009, 07:42
Garrett is IRREPLACEABLE!!

No companions, just Master Garrett!!

Platinumoxicity
12th May 2009, 07:44
I'm starting to get this feeling that Ion Storm deliberately overshot the ending of T3 to make it impossible to get back to the old Thief without changing the main character. That was just evil. They tried to end the series there and pretty much succeeded.

Thievingtaffer
12th May 2009, 07:48
The argument stating that the Main Character cannot be our beloved Garrett anymore is totally ill-founded in my opinion. You claim that because Garrett has gone through a transformation starting with The Dark Project, and ending with the end of Deadly Shadows, and is now a new person, and we should move on assumses something ridiculous: Each character can only be used once? Transformed once?

Take for example Gordan Freeman. Went to work one day, saved the world, came out a moved and changed character at the end of the game, with an ending similar to Deadly Shadows. Does that mean that Valve can't bring him back for a new game? Of course not. Or take Sam Fisher from Soldier of Fortune. Or Agent 47 from Hitman. Or Solid Snake (if you want to go there). These characters are their franchises and they will never wear out.

One of the things I love from the Thief series is Garrett's bitter personality and overall reluctance to save the world. If you lose that, you lose a large attractive character-developed conflict. The Dark Project and Metal Age play out nicely as a movie, with strong character development, and the in depth writing is what makes it so great. Take away such a great character as Garrett, and you toss that character out the window, and probably fail trying to make a new one.

Jables_Kage
12th May 2009, 07:50
Yes of course. Seriously guys, you will BADLY alienate people by changing from Garrett and very much get off on the wrong foot. Please. Don't do it...

Totally agree with mister_riz do not go down this path eidos or you will loose alot of fans!

GmanPro
12th May 2009, 07:51
If you want want a different protagonist, play a different game I say

Smooogy
12th May 2009, 07:53
Personally I didn't think Thief Deadly Shadows was a superb enough game to remove Garrett from his title of main protagonist. If you do that, you need to have a great sendoff, which TDS, being an xbox port, kind of wasn't on that level.

I still liked TDS! Anything thief is great, but Garret has to return so new players can come to learn his coolness. He's been severely overlooked because of the enormous gaps timewise between games, and it would be a shame to not give him this chance to show up every other game's so called heroes.

The kid at the end of TDS? Well, I'm thinking apprentice, but don't make us play him or her. Nah, let them watch and learn from Garrett

muzboz
12th May 2009, 07:54
I am thrilled that Thief 4 has been announced! Nothing could make me happier! :)

I think it could work really well to make it a story of Garrett's genesis.

His history has been hinted at in the prologue of the first game, talking about how he was taken up by The Keepers when he was caught pick pocketing one, and they trained him, and how he didn't really fit in there, and ultimately left to do his own thing.

Stephen Russel is iconic to the series, and when I think of all the things I love about the series, his voice is a large part of it. His laconic cheeky drawl is very endearing.

I think it would be great to set the game as Garrett is a young man, in mischief, around a large medieval city, much like the first game, and before he knows of any of the deeper mysteries of the various orders and groups of the population.

The first or second mission could be to perform job X, which lands him in trouble when he is caught trying to pick pocket the keeper mentioned in the opening flash-back cutscene of Thief 1.

From there, the story could explore the nature of the keepers, and a new storyline about what they were embroiled with at the time. You could spend half of your time performing special Keeper missions (which take advantage of your unique skills), while you are perhaps still moonlighting as an everyday Thief "outside Keeper work hours".

Perhaps your new found power as a Keeper gives you grand images of yourself, and you begin to perform especially difficult and risky thieving tasks to challenge yourself.

And go on to explore why Garrett begins to conflict with the Keepers, and ultimately leaves their order.

That would be cool!

- Murray :eek:

muzboz
12th May 2009, 07:59
I would also urge you to use Eric Brosius as the audio designer, one of the key personal in making the Thief series what it is, along with other key voice actors for the guards, who are iconic for the brand as well.

- Murray

Jables_Kage
12th May 2009, 08:20
The kid at the end of TDS? Well, I'm thinking apprentice, but don't make us play him or her. Nah, let them watch and learn from Garrett

maybe you send her on her first mission and she gets caught and you have to go save her and loot a huge castle at the same time???

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
12th May 2009, 08:55
Take for example Gordon Freeman. Went to work one day, saved the world, came out a moved and changed character at the end of the game, with an ending similar to Deadly Shadows. Does that mean that Valve can't bring him back for a new game? Of course not. Or take Sam Fisher from Soldier of Fortune. Or Agent 47 from Hitman. Or Solid Snake (if you want to go there). These characters are their franchises and they will never wear out.


Word. Garrett is an iconic character.
Indiana Jones= Indy
MGS= Snake
Wolfenstein= BJ Blaskowicz
Splinter Cell= Sam Fisher
THIEF= GARRETT

Seriously, do they really want to make the same mistake Kojima did in MGS 2?

Pyryp
12th May 2009, 09:16
Garret ftw!

Apprentice101
12th May 2009, 11:17
ok, first of all i am die hard thief series fan, and i have to say i was such even in 1998 when first Thief came out. I played all 3 games from the series, and i have to say i played the first 2, TDP and TMA, all by myself, havent used any strategies or stuff from forums, and i grew into this game all by myself. Garret IS of course 50% of the game. It always have been and always will be. However, i must also add that the purist (other people such as me, cause i consider myself purist) approach thats its the ONLY way to go kinda makes me embarassed.

Guys, thief IV is NEW game. Its not 1.5, nor 2.5 nor 3.5. Yes it is called Thief for a reason - to bring the old style/gameplay/feel/atmosphere/world into play which DEFINES THief series BUT with new features, NEW missions and NEW story. Garret IS not going away, he is a main protagonist in the trilogy, however, bringing something fresh into the SEQUEL, imo wont in any way break the series. Therefore, i dont see anything wrong if Garret is STILL in the game, as playable character with SAME voice actor, however, adding new apprentice of his would really add to the feel of the Thief series. Not necessarily, but it could be as somebody already pointed out - Garret being as The PRO/Master thief in doing the strategy and vital missions, thinking and being shown in the debriefings, TOGETHER with added girl apprentice who would do some Side missions, non-vital missions. And sometimes their Dialogue would appear.

ITs not like GARRET was ALL alone in the game, he had both allies, enemies and people who he visited for advice, for information and stuff. Why cant his apprentice be his partner now, the same way the keepers were, etc.etc. etc. Just the idea of implementing his apprentice in the side stories should be implement that way it doesnt in any way break the Feel/World of Thief series.


I agree Espion; I doubt that Garrett would willingly take on the responsibility of another soul, especially that of a child. As you said, unless he uses the mentoring to take advantage of a situation or inadvertently gets involved in something bigger that just happens to include his mentoring someone. Otherwise, Garrett's always been pretty much a lone wolf who doesn't like anyone exercising their authority over him. .

Thats why we love Garret. He is not static character. he is dynamic character. And i could add that the way Garret was made apprentice, he has some emotions toward making apprentice. he is not immortal therefore, leaving a legacy with same standards behind him is a win and not a loss.

Velecost
12th May 2009, 11:46
Word. Garrett is an iconic character.
Indiana Jones= Indy
MGS= Snake
Wolfenstein= BJ Blaskowicz
Splinter Cell= Sam Fisher
THIEF= GARRETT

Seriously, do they really want to make the same mistake Kojima did in MGS 2?

I just hope they listen! Good points man. I still remember how upset I was when playing MGS 2 and it even made 4 sad how they want to get rid of snake.

goldsla
12th May 2009, 14:21
Should Garrett remain the main protagonist in T4?
Or if he is not the main character, what should his role be? :scratch:

What about the little girl that you see in the ending of T3: DS?
Perhaps she has grown up and features in T4?

Discuss... :)Consider having both Garrett and the little girl as protagonists of their own missions which intertwine independent seeming storylines. Maybe. But definately Garrett. He is Thief however it is spelled.

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
12th May 2009, 14:57
Sounds good to me. In such case it would of course be favourable if the two characters were quite different to play. The girl (probably a young woman) could for example be able to move/run a lot faster and more nimble/agile/acrobatic, but lack some of Garretts skills when it comes to stealth and lock picking.

Frappo
12th May 2009, 15:08
sure He must be the main character.
Garret's charisma is insuperable

The Deuce
12th May 2009, 15:47
I think it's worth pointing out, folks, that if Garrett is in the game, and if the game is a continuation of Thief 3's story, then he's not going to be the same as he has been in previous games.

In past games, he was a selfish bastard (that's why we love him!). Although he primarily robbed corrupt rich guys, he wasn't after social justice or anything, and was quite happy to be hired by corrupt rich guys if he was paid enough. He stole cause he wanted other people's stuff.

At the end of Thief 3, he's changed. He's grown up and accepted responsibility. He's not the self-serving jerk anymore. He's now the One True Keeper, the benevolent protector of the city. Even if an excuse can be thought up for him to steal again, his motives for doing so will be different from before.

Has anybody here considered the possibility of a remake of the first game? I don't mean that loopy "modern-day re-imagining" idea that Ion Storm had before they folded. I mean an actual remake of the 1st game, with the same basic storyline and setting, but with today's vastly improved technology. It would have all-new levels, and plenty of new content and variation to make it fresh, while still having the same basic story arc. With Eidos' advertising budget, the game could get the publicity and exposure that the original Thief was sadly deprived of, and a lot of new players could get into the Thief experience from the beginning.

Pyronox
12th May 2009, 16:46
TH4 should start with the girl dieing >=)

BoldEnglishman
12th May 2009, 19:48
I have to agree with the people that say Garrett should NOT be the protagonist. As far as I can see, Garrett has gone full circle (defeating the Trickster and the Pagans, defeating Karras and the Mechanists, and defeating the Hag and inadvertently making the Keepers redundant), and I cannot see how Garrett can progress any further as a playable character.

Originally Garrett was a Thief, and at the time that was brilliant (learning all about the City, the different factions, learning about all these new elements as Garrett was learning about them himself) - he was mortal basically. However now Garrett is practically as close to omniscient as a mortal can be in The City - he is supposed to be the last Keeper as is suggested by the ending of Thief: Deadly Shadows, and I cannot foresee how Garrett can continue with this new role and power. He is no longer simply a thief.

I think what Valve did with the original Half-Life was a good idea - Gordon Freeman is the player character of the core game itself, while the expansions provided different playable characters that were all a part of this greater story. I am not saying that Garrett should be abandoned completely - Garrett if anything should probably play quite a major role in the story - however I think it is time that the player takes control of someone else. I don't know who yet exactly, maybe the girl at the end of Deadly Shadows, maybe not... but I can only foresee fans criticizing the game for 'ruining' Garrett if he is the next playable character. The end of Thief Deadly Shadows was a very good ending, and showed how the cycle of history had come full circle... everything about Garrett seems to fit and make sense, so much so that this delicate state of 'balance' and 'wholeness' would be lost if he was to branch out and start going down yet another path.

Some people have mentioned that Garrett is Thief... and I have to say that I disagree. One of the most interesting elements of the Thief games is the rich world and environments that they take place in. There are so many elements to The City and the various factions that play out and exist in The City, that Garrett does not need to be there all the time. Garrett is no doubt a very important element of Thief, but he is only one aspect of the whole storyline, and I personally could very well enjoy playing a Thief game without Garrett -- oh wait, I already have! Thief 2X: Shadows of the Metal Age.

rezorrand
12th May 2009, 19:55
"Thief" if you look at the name, it tells a lot about the game. Garrett established the whole concept to the series. He's the Thief that made the series live and loved by the fans. It would be little bit like if Lara Croft was replaced by a guy in Tomb Raider series.

Instead of thinking the title as the profession of the protagonist, it should be considered as the person who professes the namesake. It's the story about a Garrett, if the girl has a story, it would have to be a spin-off of some sorts. "Burglar" or something.

Hence, it has to be Garrett, none else. Besides, why is everyone obsessed with the idea that it has to be a sequel to the Thief trilogy. It could be about his other adventures. I'm quite certain he has had a lot more adventures that players could experience.

StalinsGhost
12th May 2009, 20:00
Personally I hate the idea that Garrett is some sort of poster boy. He's a more advanced character than all the other "iconic" protagonists out there, and one who could actually be developed futher, more logically and with more complexity if we were to see Garrett's place in the City from another pair of eyes.

I deplore the idea of a series with the narrative excellence of Thief being turned into some cash-cow simply just selling on iconisms and poster-boyism - as I fear is happening to Bioshock for example.

Besides. Garrett would despise all this insipid hero worship!

kin
12th May 2009, 20:23
TH4 should start with the girl dieing >=)

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

kerrang
12th May 2009, 21:01
A female thief as a foster child of Garrett who'd be the mentor in a fourth game might be a nice refreshing twist on the franchise, if they can get her just as cynical and sinister as Garrett used to be. I'd probably enjoy it more than if they tried to recreate the atmosphere of the first two games and failed (which I pretty much expect them to)."

So, yeah I vote for the girl to be the new protagonist, but she'd have to be somewhat seasoned, like in her early twenties. Nothing worse to a game than an adolescent main character who grows up over the course of the game.

And, repeating myself to stress the importance of this, she'd have to be as cynical as Garrett was for this to be any fun.


agreed, vote for cynical girl, time to refresh franchise! :p
or please let us choose character sex like Mr & Miss Shepherd from Mass Effect :p

The_Hammerite
12th May 2009, 21:08
Wow, pro Garrett in here. Am i going to be stoned to death voting for that little girl in T3 to take main role? :poke:

They might as well make it so that you can choose which character to play as in the beginning. Although I think, either way, there should only be cursory interaction with the other possible protagonist; in that they are both aware of whatever goings-on surmise the plot. I don't think that interactions in gameplay would go over well - either Garret or the girl would go solo, and with games like Army of Two having gone down the 'heavy on the co-op' road.

Either way, just let the player choose who to play as, don't kill off the character they didn't play as, etc. It'll satisfy both camps. Oh, and about Stephen Russell - if he isn't available for Garrett, just have the girl be the protagonist - anyone other than Russell doing Garrett's voice would stand as an unrivaled sacrilege.

Black Messiah
12th May 2009, 21:12
Garrett !

StalinsGhost
12th May 2009, 21:17
Oh, and about Stephen Russell - if he isn't available for Garrett, just have the girl be the protagonist - anyone other than Russell doing Garrett's voice would stand as an unrivaled sacrilege.

Utterly true. I think even the Garrett-as-protagonist fans would agree he shouldn't be in if Russel isn't.

Ice1019
12th May 2009, 21:30
Originally, I thought that Garrett should be the protagonist, with no exceptions. But truth be told, I believe the idea that he really has come full circle. He had his journey over the three games, and his story ends just as it begins, with a picked pocket. I think forcing Garrett into a new story just to have Garrett might not work out as well as we all want it to.

With that said though, Garrett needs to be in the story. Using the girl as a plot device to bring in people who never played the game might be the way to go, as we have a new person to journey with the player, exploring this fantastic City. Perhaps Garrett is older, wiser, but still something of a curmudgeon, instructing the girl in the ways of property reallocation engineering. We can see Garrett break new ground as the caretaker of this young girl, and even of the whole City as the One True Keeper, but maybe this girl is his eyes and ears throughout the City, taking the Lords and Bluecoats down a few pegs, and keeping the Balance between the Hammers and the Pagans.

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
12th May 2009, 21:37
>Ice1019
Sounds like the foundation of a possible scenario to me. The only thing missing is a threat/problem that they need to deal with (but you already knew that).

Botlas
13th May 2009, 01:01
If you think about it, the exposure we get to Garrett comes in three places: cutscenes, mission briefings, and muttering during missions. Except for that third one, Garrett can play a prominent role in a new game even if he isn't the protagonist. It wouldn't quite be the same, and you'd still need a reason to care about the protagonist-who-isn't-Garrett, but if he isn't the main character we may still see a lot of him.

I'd still prefer Garrett, but I'm just throwing out the thought.

Mr McGee
13th May 2009, 04:09
Sounds good to me. In such case it would of course be favourable if the two characters were quite different to play. The girl (probably a young woman) could for example be able to move/run a lot faster and more nimble/agile/acrobatic, but lack some of Garretts skills when it comes to stealth and lock picking.

Have you been sneaking into my brain to get ideas by any chance? Reading that was like reading my own thoughts.

kin
13th May 2009, 04:40
It doesn't matter what is best for the story. What matters is what character will bring more money to EM. Garrett can do this beacause as a character has a well developed base already.

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 04:58
That's true. Trying to make a new protagonist would be a major gamble for EM. Everyone's familiar with Garrett already. His voice is instantly recognizable. It would be incredibly stupid to try something new

Ice1019
13th May 2009, 05:19
That's true. Trying to make a new protagonist would be a major gamble for EM. Everyone's familiar with Garrett already. His voice is instantly recognizable. It would be incredibly stupid to try something new

I don't think so. Sure, a bankable hero is important, but having Garrett be the protagonist just "because" would be a mistake. Story is key to the Thief franchise, when last we saw our misanthropic hero, he's really kind of come full circle. If EM can find a good character arc for him, then sure, bring him back. But I think it's better from a narrative perspective to bring out the girl. Garrett should be in the story by all means, but EM needs to bring something new (and constructive) to the Thief series, and I think the girl would be a good idea.

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 06:04
Well. I care about Garrett. He's cool. I don't care about some dumb girl that was present for ten seconds of cutscene at the end of the weakest game of the series.

It'd be like changing the protagonist of a Tomb Raider game, or a Half-Life game. Just changing something that major for the sake of it? I wouldn't be surprised, the industry as a whole has grown up after all.

Man, that would pretty much be the ultimate example of whats wrong with the gaming industry today. If they were to actually go through with it that is.

Ice1019
13th May 2009, 06:30
Sure, the decision to change the only protagonist the Thief series has ever had is a huge gamble. Garrett is the ultimate anti-hero, and Looking Glass and Stephen Russell crafted him to an almost crystalline perfection. But we've had Garrett take on the Pagans, the Hammers, and the Keepers in successive games, and we are left with him at the end of his cycle. Sure, he's gonna keep on thieving, but how do we bring him back into the machinations of the City in a way that doesn't seem contrived? I didn't like Deadly Shadows for the most part, but I think the ending was a great way to finish his arc.

Bringing in the girl I think is a good way for people who never played the game to get into the story. If all EM does is bring in Garrett same-old, same-old, sure all of us that have been playing Thief since 1998 will be right on board, but what about the people who are new to the games? Having a protagonist who only really resonates with the Thief die-hards is a great way to kill this new lease on life we've been fortunate enough to have. The quickest way to kill this franchise is make a game purely as fan service, alienating the new guys. I want Thief, but I want a Thief that belongs in 2009, not 1998.

Look at Starcraft. Jim Raynor is still the protagonist because his story hasn't finished. Arcturus Mengsk, on the other hand, has had his story told. He went from revolutionary to vicious tyrant, and now we have his son Valerian to bring something new to the Mengsk arc. Arcturus is still there, and bet he'll still be important, but he's not the focus. I'm not saying that's how EM has to do it, but it is an example.

I think Garrett should be in the new game, I think he should be a core character, but I think maybe the best thing to both give something new to the old guard and ease the new people into this fantastic universe would be to see the City through some new eyes. It doesn't have to be the squirt, but I think she's the better choice.

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 06:39
I think that the quickest way to ruin this game actually, is to try to appeal to everyone. Besides, this new generation of gamers doesn't care about immersion. They'd rather sit back on their couches fifteen feet away from the screen and shoot stuff for twenty minutes. I think the best way for this game to be successful is if it stays absolutely true to the series. And if its good like the classic Thief's, Then the fans will pile up. Looking Glass didn't compromise anything when making these games and we all love them for it. There are plenty of ways to fit Garrett into the story and I'm sure EM will think of something good.

Anyway, the new players wont connect with some new character any more than they would with Garrett, having known neither one.

Ice1019
13th May 2009, 07:12
I think that the quickest way to ruin this game actually, is to try to appeal to everyone. Besides, this new generation of gamers doesn't care about immersion. They'd rather sit back on their couches fifteen feet away from the screen and shoot stuff for twenty minutes. I think the best way for this game to be successful is if it stays absolutely true to the series. And if its good like the classic Thief's, Then the fans will pile up. Looking Glass didn't compromise anything when making these games and we all love them for it. There are plenty of ways to fit Garrett into the story and I'm sure EM will think of something good.

Anyway, the new players wont connect with some new character any more than they would with Garrett, having known neither one.

Well, there was a time that we didn't know Garrett, but we all got to know him. I think you're thinking a little too cynically. BioShock was immersive, and people loved it. Metal Gear Solid 4 was ridiculously deep, and they ate that up too. Not all gamers nowadays are fratboys playing Halo 3 at Phi Theta Keg. Sure, dumbing down the game would be terrible, that's why the Xbox version of Thief: DS has been getting slammed in virtually every thread in this forum!

I want to see EM stay true to the series too, I want FP camera, I want the old health mechanic instead of regeneration, I want the rope arrows instead of the gloves. I just want to see some innovation too.

Have faith, my friend, I think Thief's in good hands.

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 07:17
Well, if Thief 4 turns out like BioShock or MGS4, I'm going to scream.

GarretDarkCity
13th May 2009, 07:22
The City is THIEF
THIEF IS GARRETT
GARRETT is STEPHEN RUSSELL
STEPHEN RUSSELL IS GOD

what Eidos montreal really needs is a people from looking glass studios, REALLY GUYS, what are you thinking? haven't you seen that thief is in the hall of fame of the best games of all time? that GARRETT is the best main character in videogame history? have you imagine a Mario Bros game without Mario? a Zelda game without Link? a 007 movie without James Bond? THIS is what THIEF is about, GARRETT is THIEF, kill the little girl/boy, but no Garrett, Make a Thief game based in garrett's past, before he met Constantine. AND SERIOSLY GUYS, PLAY !!!!! THE FIRST TWO GAMES for at least 1000 times before you make this game, forget about the third....

one last request... forget the unreal engine.......dark engine showed the best physics in a game, even when graphic definition wasn't so good, desing an engine alike to the dark engine, DO your homework

Ice1019
13th May 2009, 07:27
I heard there are people from big studios all wanting to come work on DX3 and T4, so we might just get some Looking Glass vets on the project. I doubt it, but I would love to see Eric and Terri Brosius come back.

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 07:30
You gotta think that they are going to use many of the old voice actors. Stephen Russell for one. Those same two guards (classic :D), dunno who voices those guys though. Those guys technically worked at Looking Glass

Ice1019
13th May 2009, 07:42
Sure, anybody else as Garrett would cause unfathomable rage even in my forward-thinking vision of Thief. That one guy with the really rough voice always cracked me up.

Getting back to the original vibe of this thread, Gman, I'm curious as to what you want out of Garrett as the protagonist in Thief 4. You seem really dead set on having him, and I'm just curious as to how you see him in this new game. I'm not trying to challenge you on anything, I just want to try and see things from the other angle, maybe there's something I'm missing.

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 07:51
There's a few ways to go about it really. Maybe make this game a prequel. Or have it take place in between two of the games. Develop the character further. I felt like Garrett had earned such a large amount of fame by TDS that there had to have been more in his past than just those two games. I mean, most of what he did was all in the dark. How would all of the city dwellers know about his epicness unless he had done many a job that we haven't yet had the opportunity to play through.

That, or the story could pick up after TDS. Maybe Garrett attracts a new kind of attention with his new found powers. Maybe he doesn't like this attention, or his new powers. There's lots of room here to keep the Garrett story alive following the events of DS, but I'd prefer think the former.

Ice1019
13th May 2009, 08:01
I hear that, a prequel is an idea some people have been bouncing around, and there is definitely meat on that bone. I'd like to see where that goes, definitely. Garrett's time with the Keepers and why he left them is a huge part of Garrett's character, and we haven't seen that yet. Garrett's new position after TDS is cool too, don't get me wrong, and I think it would be the ultimate conflict for the reserved and cynical Garrett to be the A-number-one Keeper of the Balance, having the well-being of the City on his shoulders and he can never get rid of it.

The idea I have with the kid is sort of along these lines, like maybe Garrett can't handle the pressure and bails, and the new protagonist has to hunt down the ultimate disappearing act. A mission chasing Garrett across the Thieves Highway I think would be pretty neato.

But, I like where you're heads at with the Garrett protagonist idea, and I'm just trying to be flexible.

GmanPro
13th May 2009, 08:03
Actually, I just remembered how much I loved Opposing Force. So if EM was smart they'd make Thief 4 with Garrett as the protagonist etc etc, but then after that, start developing an expansion pack. Where you play through the events of Thief 4 through the eyes of another character. That would pretty much please everybody I think

Ice1019
13th May 2009, 08:14
Sure, I loved the contrast Valve had with Half-Life and it's expansions, a whole load of "oh I remember that" moments. Blue Shift and Opposing Force both were full of those, especially the very beginning with Barney and the tram.

I think when we get a clearer picture of where EM is going with Thief 4, we'll be able to really define what it is we wanna see go in. I think this whole forum is a great idea, I think what we as the fans want is important to them, and they are probably gonna scour this whole place for as much as they can find.

Not saying they can't blow it, but I can dream anyway.

Flashart
13th May 2009, 10:36
In a typical "third way", the girl was introduced in TDS, she could be the main
part of the story narrative, but still play Garret in T4.
Then at the end don't kill him off but "retire" him.
Then T5 could be just with a new character, while T6 could return to Garrett if
it doesn't work.
I've stated elsewhere that what we're actually seeing is the evolution of the city,
not Garrett. I'd still rather play Garrett than any other character, but TX2 was perfectly fine.
I'd like to stress that at the end of TDS Garrett was very much alive, still a thief, still to a degree a fugitive, the only difference is he is now a little more "internally conflicted".
I'd concentrate on the city's evolution, Garrett can merely react to the changes. Handled lightly, Garrett could easily continue for many games.
I'm not adverse to change, but not just for change's sake.As everyone keeps saying, the core aspects of TDP and TMA must be preserved, but surely one of those cores was that we see the world through Garrett's eye(s).
I realise I'm starting to repeat myself but I think including a user friendly editor would be a great help. People could then write their own FM's allowing the stories to continue as they see fit.

simlan
13th May 2009, 11:10
Garrett HAS to remain as main character and story centered around himself other wise the game will feel of a different game and apart form the thief series, if any other characters need to be involved (for story purposes) then let them be chosen to played with at the beginning, default being Garrett.

Or have a series of side missions that can be taken as optional allowing to follow the main story that is garretts involvement of what is chosen to happen

Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
13th May 2009, 11:12
Bring back Garrett. :thumb:
No freaking girl that we only saw for a second or two.

sapud83
13th May 2009, 12:40
Bring back Garrett. :thumb:
No freaking girl that we only saw for a second or two.

I agree in 100% only Garrett can be main character and mr Russell's voice is the best for this role. Girl could be good as a lover of Garrett:) That would be interesting!

Durinda D'Bry
13th May 2009, 12:55
only Stephen Russell can be Garrett

Only Stephen Russel could be Benny:) I hope Karras character will not return:)

Teasza
13th May 2009, 14:01
I think it could work really well to make it a story of Garrett's genesis.

This is exactly what I was thinking. The TDS ending made it very difficult to make a chronologically new game (with Garrett as protagonist) without severely messing with what happened at the end of DS. A prequel is the best option for a number of reasons:

1. We know next to nothing about Garrett's early time with the keepers, let alone the time that elapsed between his "leaving them in anger" and the beginning of Dark Project. This is an opportunity to fill in some of the game timeline and lore.

2. We get to focus on pure thievery for a bit. Obviously, at this stage, Garrett is still attaining his Master Thief status - he has to earn it. And with a prequel, the player can earn it for him. Sounds perfect to me.

3. At this point in the story, Garrett has already made his ambiguous connection to the Keepers, so it's not lore-breaking to involve them a little, which the devs would probably be keen to do seeing as they're such major players in the original storylines.

4. It would be interesting to show the increasing tension between Pagan and Hammerite factions, which as we know eventually culminates in Dark Project's ending.

5. A prequel erases all the tiptoeing around Garrett's change in status at the end of DS. I honestly think that if the new game is set after DS, Garrett cannot be the protagonist - and Garrett IS the Thief games.

In my opinion, the only realistic way to make Garrett the protagonist again is to make Thief 4 a prequel. And since 70% of their fanbase won't buy the game sans Garrett... well, you do the maths.

Tiptoe
13th May 2009, 14:29
Speaking as a female gamer, I'd love the option to play a girl character. But if I'm forced to continue in the role of Garret, then I can live with it.

The only problem is, Garret's story seems to be pretty much finished (at least, it seems that way to me) so I really like the idea of playing as Garret's apprentice.

Perhaps, as Garret's apprentice, you could choose to play as either a male or female character. You see, I'm a big fan of choice!

But whatever you decide, Garret must definitely be in the game!

Teasza
13th May 2009, 14:56
Speaking as a female gamer, I'd love the option to play a girl character. But if I'm forced to continue in the role of Garret, then I can live with it.

Speaking as a female gamer, I don't think I can live without Garrett's voice purring in my ear every five minutes. ;)

BoldEnglishman
13th May 2009, 15:24
I pretty much agree with Ice1019 on everything he mentioned. It has since been repeated by a few people now, so to say it bluntly:

- If the new game is set after Deadly Shadows, do not go with Garrett as the player character.

- However, if the game is set before Deadly Shadows (not necessarily before the Dark Project), then go ahead with Garrett.

A year elapsed between the Dark Project and the Metal Age, and though we play through this interlude period for a bit (in Shadows of the Metal Age), there is always the possibility of exploring that further.

However, the idea of going back pre-Lord Bafford's Manor sounds very interesting, and was what I was going to propose today had you guys not beat me to the score! We have no idea how much time elapses between "A Keeper's Training" and "Lord Bafford's Manor", and as has been mentioned, Garrett has already built an infamous reputation for himself as evidenced by several conversations in both "Assassins" and "Thieves' Guild". The introduction in the manual suggests that Garrett and Cutty were working together for a while anyway "You have a reliable fence, named Cutty, who's always on the
lookout for good jobs. So far, he's never let you down".

tjtrewin
13th May 2009, 15:24
why is everyone so negative about the possibility of having a female character?

imagine the things that a woman could achieve,

i've made a list of both advantages & disadvantages

Advantages

flirt her way past guards
easily slip on a dress and gatecrash a party, mingle with the guests and learn info etc
agility & flexibility advantages
(possibly) slimmer being able to hide easier and get through narrow spaces
women are cunning and deceptive (i should know! i do it all the time :D)
a woman could be a distraction for the guards whilst Garrett sneaks in the building
if it's a child, she can crawl through places and hide a LOAD easier
this child is very young, when you see Garrett for the first time he looks a late teen / early twenties. This child has got more time to learn.


Disadvantages

Garrett likes to work alone
The girl (however old) will not have the same experience as Garrett and so may be prone to falling into traps or getting caught etc
Men are naturally stronger built than women.
The fans will cry. I've seen it typed all over this forum already.


I agree that Garrett should not be removed from the game, but the (possible) gradual introduction of a new character should be welcomed, not turned away because she's a girl.

If there even IS a new character.

Teasza
13th May 2009, 15:28
The introduction in the manual suggests that Garrett and Cutty were working together for a while anyway "You have a reliable fence, named Cutty, who's always on the
lookout for good jobs. So far, he's never let you down".

That's something that I noticed, too. It's a clue to Garrett's timeline. We're never told Garrett's age, but forming a reliable relationship with a fence has got to take time. I estimate there must have been roughly ten years, perhaps even more, between Garrett's leaving the Keepers and the beginning of Dark Project. There is SO much scope there for development. I love the idea of helping a younger Garrett earn his title of Master Thief.

Direlord
13th May 2009, 15:46
I agree that Garrett should not be removed from the game, but the (possible) gradual introduction of a new character should be welcomed, not turned away because she's a girl.

If there even IS a new character.

I don't think many if anyone doesn't want the girl as the main character because of the sex of the character. It is more we WANT Garrett with his voice and no one else.

Personally for me I can go either way I want Garrett back as the main character as prequel or a continuation of the story. On the other hand the little girl at the end of DS was the near exact same conversation and situation as Garrett had in the intro for the first game. She would be trained as a Keeper and I have a feeling as a thief as well by Garrett.

This leads to a few possibilities IMO.
1. She is the main character probably in her early 20s by now and Garrett has rubbed off on her in attitude. Any voice actress I think would need to get the audio or play the old games and talk to Russell for how he did the voice. I think the early missions briefings should be given by Garrett with some later given by herself like Garrett used to.

2. Another choice she becomes a keeper and is in training who helps Garrett out but isn't more than a side character and a nod to DS.

3. She becomes a excellent thief learning all the tricks of the trade however she goes off on her own. The main character you play is Garrett and the girl competes against him and is his later enemy as she gets involved in things or with people that were not the best choices. The ending being a thief vs thief thing.

Ice1019
13th May 2009, 17:45
I mentioned the Thief versus Thief thing, but in the other direction. I think it's a pretty cool idea either way, because Garrett's always had a bit of a superiority complex when it comes to other thieves, and putting that to the test in either his shoes or the girl's. Personally I think the girl's got more going for her if they are continuing the story after DS.

I'm not opposed to the idea of a prequel story, but part of what made Garrett and the City so cool were the gaps in the history. We don't really know about the world outside of the City, which made it more imposing. We don't know where exactly Garrett came from, or why exactly he left the Keepers, which made him more mysterious. On the other hand, having an older Garrett essentially playing Dad to this girl would be kind of a lame way for him to end up, unless this whole True Keeper business is going to set up some serious threat to Garrett and the City.

esme
13th May 2009, 17:47
Should Garrett remain the main protagonist in T4?
Or if he is not the main character, what should his role be? :scratch:

What about the little girl that you see in the ending of T3: DS?
Perhaps she has grown up and features in T4?

Discuss... :)how about the story being set some time later, the little girl has grown into an adult and is a keeper with skills equal to Garrett in his heyday, just different skills, Garrett is now the head of the order, somewhat of a prisoner of old age and bored out of his mind with the tedium

she investigates a mystery in the keeper records which leads her off to somewhere in the mountains say, she consults with Garrett who gives her one of his scouting orbs which is useless to her but can send an image back to Garrett once it's activated

Garrett subsequently receives a horrific vision of the girl in danger and decides to take the opportunity for a little adventure by going to help, a bit sexist I know but bear with me

the other keepers naturally don't want him to leave the order as the knowledge he now possesses would be dangerous in the wrong hands

so he has to go it alone and he first has to escape his fellow keepers, naturally he doesn't want to hurt them too much

he is a lot older, less fit and perhaps a bit rusty so he has to undergo some kind of rejuvenation and retraining first, to get him him back into his prime, say by finding the eye has the power to rejuvenate leading to him limping stealthily across the city, going back to the haunted cathedral and grabbing the eye again

so you have two distinct sections to the game, first the girl discovers a mystery and goes to investigate perhaps with her own distinct weapon set leading to a climax where she gets caught and sends the message to Garrett, then Garrett does his knight in stealthy armour bit with his more traditional set of tools

and of course this is the Thief universe we're talking about so you can weave some fairly devious twists into the plot, like is the girl really asking for help or has she become corrupted in some way and is trying to lure Garrett to his doom, he is the head of the order and has knowledge that would be useful to the right people or even the right deities

in the final meeting, the girl could be corrupt and handled by an AI, she could be dead leading to a revenge scenario, she could be in need of rescue but whatever happens now we would have access to both weapon toolsets and use them to deal with the mystery that started the whole deal

so the user plays the girl in the first part, and garrett in the second, the final mission where both characters are present you could set it up so the user has a choice of which character to play say they are both in a cell/dungeon/oubliette and the first to try and escape somehow seals the cell preventing the escape of the other

then the scene closes leaving Garrett wondering if he should return to the order or continue with his old ways, after all he's just had the most fun he's had in years why should it end

leaving the game open to the possibility of thi5f :rolleyes: :lol: or a spinoff game for the female character if the fans take to her

...and of course these two characters would now be around the same age so T5XXX perhaps

Tohtori
13th May 2009, 21:10
I can't see why you want Garret so much. He has saved the world for tree times. Give him a rest. I personally would like to see someone else as protagonist and Garret could be his/her mentor. A girl could be ok but not the stunningly beauty like other games have. Ugly and cynical female lead character would be something new.

And even with Garret as mentor it would be his story (:

Direlord
13th May 2009, 21:18
She would have to be cynical afterall Garrett was her mentor and probably father figure. Ugly though? i don't see that happening unless you give her a nasty scar. She can still be a decent beauty but more along the lines of a normal fit woman instead of lara croft.

tender19
13th May 2009, 21:22
No question here. Garrett = Thief. With Stephen Russell, of course.

The_Hammerite
13th May 2009, 22:24
Another element to consider in terms of possibly having a co-op game separate from the main singleplayer storyline would be a string of high-stakes thefts, Garrett overseeing the girl demonstrating all she's learned. By separate I mean along the lines of the co-op in Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory.

Ice1019
13th May 2009, 22:53
No doubt this girl is going to be good-looking, you will never see an ugly main character outside of a comedy. But, she can be a little more rough-around-the-edges than usual. I definitely don't want to play Thief Raider. It would be interesting to see how much of Garrett's amorality rubs off on her. Garrett's jabs at the wealthy feng-shui (or lack thereof) was one of the best parts, and I'd love to see that continued, even if it isn't Garrett saying it.

Co-op could be a cool idea for a new character if they keep Garrett as the main character (which I would be cool with), although I would hope that's the only influence Splinter Cell has on Thief 4.

Corvin25
14th May 2009, 13:37
We all love Garrett. And it would really alienate a lot of the fanbase if he wasn't the main character... ot at least the PRIMARY played character.

The girl should probably show up though..... Oh, I just got an idea.

What if you played as the adopted girl for the TUTORIAL mission? A few years older, obviously. But since Garrett is teaching her his tricks, it would make sense for him to explain how to control the character. In the end, once you finish all the exercises, he could tell her that she's making excellent progress, and that with a few more years of physical training, she'll be ready to start her career.

If for some reason she has to go on a mission herself, like say, to bust Garrett out of prison or to escape from raiding City Watch officers when Garrett is not there... She should have some limitations, as she is not the master thief Garrett is yet. Perhaps she cannot use a bow, since she is not yet proficient in its use... and obviously she has no "zoom" feature since she still has both her eyes.

... If you decide to go the prequel road though, (From the start of his traning, to the day he left the keepers), obviously you wouldn't play anybody but Garrett.

Silmuen
14th May 2009, 15:06
I do not see why Garrett would be teaching the girl his tricks. He is a loner. And they're HIS tricks.

Unless he has a very good reason and a benefit from it.

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
14th May 2009, 18:31
Ageing masters tend to want to leave a legacy, especially to people they deem having talent and/or remind them of themselves.

kamilavalamp
14th May 2009, 19:07
garret must remain as the protagonist in the story and be voiced by the same person or someone who sounds EXACTLY like him, and if he does not want to than make a voice just like his digitally

Jayy
15th May 2009, 13:19
Thief without Garret...let...me...think.....noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!:mad2:

Dia1
15th May 2009, 13:31
No Garrett in T4? I agree with whomever said that making a character other than Garrett the main protagonist in T4 would definitely alienate a lot of Thief fans. I'd be one of those alienated. I've played FMs wherein the main character was someone other than Garrett and it broke the immersion for me every time, no matter how well done the FM was. I just can't see anyone other than Garrett as the Master Thief.



I'd like to share an image of one of my worst T4 nightmares:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c262/Diah_/2714270593_8b7e9936b7copy.jpg

Nope. Just doesn't do a thing for me. (Maybe 'cuz I'm not prepubescent or fixated on mammary glands?.) :hmm:

tender19
15th May 2009, 14:52
Well, if a girl would be the main protagonist, please do not put a hottie there, with every inch of her body visible. Her face would be more than enough. Masked better. But yeah, I want Garrett of course, not Garretina.

Fiddlesticks
15th May 2009, 16:42
Short and sweet: YES!

Croda
16th May 2009, 03:05
Something I’ve seen noticed posted rather often in this thread is that Stephen Russell = Garret. Taking that into consideration, let us first consider the possibility of a prequel. Would a sarcastic, cynical character with a mature voice make sense for someone in his teens? No, probably not. That voice is quite suitable for the years within the arc of the first 3 thief games, but for Garret as a youth? Rather doubtful. If you can’t have Stephen Russell as a voice actor how much do you still want Garret?

I personally was drawn to this series by a couple of main aspects. First, it was the gameplay concept. It’s fun as hell to sneak around and steal stuff from people. Then there’s the fact that the story and main character actually fits the setting. There’s more than one video game that has been ruined by a bad mesh of character personality, character background and setting. If someone grows up on the streets, you don’t expect them to be all warm and bubbly and optimistic of the goodwill of people. You expect them to be jaded and cynical, something which fits Garret to a T. A master thief would likely have a great deal of confidence in his abilities. Garret, confidence? Check.

Now, let’s debate a youthful Garret. Would he be as confident? Probably not. He’d have a lot less experience. Yes, he’d have his keeper training, but having been stuck with the keepers for so long, he’d likely overestimate his ability and mess up at least a few times. So, overconfidence and pride likely. Couple that with a teenager’s general stubbornness and attitude, and you end up with someone very different from the Garret we all know and love. Could we still have a prequel with Garret in it? Of course. Would it be the same? Definitely not.

Now, let’s consider a sequel to thief 3 with Garret once again the main character. I’m going to start right off by saying that I’m personally opposed to this. One thing that I hate is people who drag out their stories just for the option of making it longer. Yes, eidos could probably drag Garret out indefinitely. He’s a much loved character and fanboys everywhere from the thief series would flock to the banner. But would the games and stories be much good? Doubtful. A couple of people have compared Garret in thief to Laura Croft in tomb raider. The difference however is the fact that the draw behind tomb raider to the people who play it is rarely for the story. It’s rarely for the setting, though it adds a certain something I suppose. No, it’s for the fact that chicks with big tits and guns sells. It’s a blatant appeal to the male sex drive and that’s pretty much it. If you try to make Garret into a poster boy you sell him out more surely than anything else you could do. Garret’s story ended with TDS. Don’t cheapen him by dragging him in as the main character again just to boost sales. It might keep the Garret fanatics, but it would piss off quite a few others.

That being said, I’m not saying that he shouldn’t be involved with the next thief. No, it would make a great deal of sense for him to be involved. But it should be in the way of passing the torch to the next generation of thief games. I know someone made the suggestion of having Garret be heavily involved with the mission briefs which would, once again, make sense. The hardcore fan boys would get their Stephen Russell and Garrett, thus bringing their grumblings down a notch. And the rest of us could get a new, well thought out character to be introduced to. And being honest, I don’t think anyone would object to listening to that sort of cynicism and sarcasm between missions anyways. ;)

There’s a lot of opportunities to tweak the gameplay and set up for a new character which would make the game a lot more interesting while still remaining true to the original that having Garret as a main character would likely not exist. That being said, I want to stress one thing above all else. Any new character/innovation has to be GOOD. I think the reason so many people are afraid of change is because Garret has worked in the past and they’re afraid that Eidos will screw it up if given the go ahead by the fans to make a new main character and tweak some game play options. So, I suppose my entire approval of the idea of them making a new character would be entirely reliant on them coming up with a new believable character you can immerse yourself in. If they screw it up and give us a shallow irritating character that you just can’t get hooked on, I’ll join the Garret Lynch Squad and tie the noose myself.

*sigh* That ties up my opinion on why Garret shouldn’t be the main character of the next game. As to the little girl in the end of TDS, I’m going to go with it has possibilities if she becomes the main character of the next game. Perhaps she becomes Garret’s apprentice, which would be an easily doable scenario to come up with. However I don’t think that she should be in a normal apprentice/master relationship with him. I’d expect a street kid to be a lot more wary of strangers proffering gifts, adults wearing cloaks especially. You never see kids on the streets in TDS, perhaps because they are sold by slavers when caught or for some reason are especially wary. But whatever the reason, I wouldn’t expect her to trust someone so easily. I suppose I could see it if she caught Garret’s eye and he watched her from the shadows, perhaps assisting her while remaining unknown. Or perhaps after getting caught by Garret that time, she gets pissed at herself and eventually turns into a rival for him. Either way, there are a lot of possibilities.

In the end though, I want Eidos to take their time with this and make it GOOD. As much as I’m interested in playing the finished product, I’d rather wait a little longer so that they could get the characters and settings to fit right rather than get it a bit sooner and have to deal with a crappy game slapped together so as to cash in on Garret’s fame. You’ve made us wait this long for a new thief game. We can wait a bit longer if that’s what it takes to make it good.

tender19
16th May 2009, 06:53
Something I’ve seen noticed posted rather often in this thread is that Stephen Russell = Garret. Taking that into consideration, let us first consider the possibility of a prequel. Would a sarcastic, cynical character with a mature voice make sense for someone in his teens? No, probably not.

So, you don't know, why we want Stephen Russell. He did the voice of the mature Garrett, for the young Garrett in the intro, the shy voiced servant guy, several guards and other characters as well... he's a f-in' genius.

1N54N3
16th May 2009, 07:05
I really don't think they can stop using Garret without at least ending the storyline with him. As it is now, there hasn't really been any closure (not that there needs to be). My point is, -IF- and I stress if, EM wants to stop using Garret, they should at least make T4 about wrapping up the story with him, and perhaps transition into the little girl for T5 possibly. Simply dropping Garret like a sack of potatoes would just be plain sad.

ToMegaTherion
16th May 2009, 08:04
Let's think about this another way. Eventually, over the course of x Thief games, Garrett will have to stop. It can't go on forever without becoming ridiculous. At this point, should we stop making Thief games set in the Thief setting?

GmanPro
16th May 2009, 08:31
Yes

tender19
16th May 2009, 09:20
Let's think about this another way. Eventually, over the course of x Thief games, Garrett will have to stop. It can't go on forever without becoming ridiculous. At this point, should we stop making Thief games set in the Thief setting?

It's his destiny. There is more. He will be always drawn into conflicts, because he has talent to solve them. Now also a keeper: more opportunities to make more blackmail-missions instead of just robbing...

Well... that would be no Thief anymore. Why would a keeper steal treasure?

Aaarrgh. Let's banish that bastard :mad2:

Necros
16th May 2009, 09:40
I'd like to share an image of one of my worst T4 nightmares:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c262/Diah_/2714270593_8b7e9936b7copy.jpg
Nope. Just doesn't do a thing for me. (Maybe 'cuz I'm not prepubescent or fixated on mammary glands?.) :hmm:
Well, I think she looks great but I wouldn't like to see her as the protagonist either. As an NPC on the other hand, in a dungeon or something... :cool: :whistle: :D

So, you don't know, why we want Stephen Russell. He did the voice of the mature Garrett, for the young Garrett in the intro, the shy voiced servant guy, several guards and other characters as well... he's a f-in' genius.
:thumb: Exactly, Stephen can do anything. :cool:

ToMegaTherion
16th May 2009, 10:27
The idea of a new thief being somehow manipulated by Garrett is quite ironic, don't you think? It might turn out quite well.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
16th May 2009, 14:48
To be honest I don't want to put an end to Garrett. I see no reason to end Garrett's saga. There's only been 3 games man. Just put him in there with another thing to do.

I just want another Thief game that I play as Garrett. I don't see another Thief game as moving on with some epic story. It's just another Thief game. Another scenario that Garrett finds himself into. I see no reason to 'move on' or anything like that. It's been years since we had a Thief game. Who cares about moving on with some story. Just give me a new game starring Garrett.

Ever since I saw the end of TDS I had hoped that the next Thief wouldn't be about that girl. Especially because I'm sure she would act as some kind of sexy lure to sell the game. Hey maybe she can use her looks as a gameplay element to distract guards. beh.

I dig goth chicks though and a thiefsie girl character would be so deliciously goth. mmm. At least, she better be.

siklara
16th May 2009, 15:09
I have a ridiculously simple argument: for me the title can't refer to anyone else, but to our beloved Masterthief, Garrett. :D

Garrett=Thief
BUT
Thief =/= Garrett, because it's about so much more!

Flashart
16th May 2009, 15:11
The Thief trilogy up to now is hardly a massive story, there's plenty of scope for
development. It's the quality of story that will be the deciding factor. The gameplay will be
essentially the same whatever character is used.
If, for example the next 3 Thief games were epic nail-biting, compelling narratives I don't
believe anyone would complain that Garrett is still the game character. If they were terrible
everyone would moan that Garrett is washed-up.
It's the quality of story that counts. Simply saying "I don't believe they can write a successful sequel..." is no argument.
If T4 demonstrates enough invention, for adaption, change, or even reinvention for T5 fine.
But from what I can tell, the majority of folks regard T3 as an unsatisfactory end to Garrett's narrative. I really do think the end of T3 was so deliberately vague to offered an option to go either way, which is why we're having this debate.
I'll continue my begging for an editor as it would allow Garrett to live on in FM's for those that wish. I think then more people would be open to change.

Gan Xodos
16th May 2009, 15:23
I loved thief 3's ending...

BlooferLady
17th May 2009, 03:59
For me, I wonder what this new Thief game will be about. TDP: Garrett v. Pagans, TMA: Garrett v. Mechanists/Hammers, TDS: Garrett v. Keepers. We've kind of covered all of the factions, and had a wonderful final cutscene where the story, Garrett's story, came full circle. That's the main reason I see for bringing in a new character. Otherwise, please give us back Garrett, and only if we can have Stephen Russel do the voice acting. If we can't have him, I'm good with a new main character.

Someone mentioned having a new character whose plot gets entangled with Garrett's own missions. I kind of like that idea, having to contend with our favorite thief. Of course, that means in the end that either one of them would have to lose (sadness!) or they would end up working together. That has a lot of cheesiness potential, and they would need a five-star storyteller in here to get it right without making me want to vomit.

LightWarriorK
17th May 2009, 04:30
I think Garrett should play a part, but doesn't neccessarilly be the main character that the player controls.

I'd almost rather see the player control his young female appentice. Give her more of a Jade (from Beyond Good and Evil) feel rather than a Lara Croft feel, and I think it might work.

SudisBetter
17th May 2009, 16:27
must be garret no way

kaekaelyn
17th May 2009, 21:33
If Garrett is not the main character, I will miss him sorely, not to mention his mechanical eye. I just don't know how I'll live without his sarcastic quips. If there's a way to write him into the story, given the wrap-up of TDS, please write him in. If there's not, well, you have to really sell me on this new character! (S)he's got to have as much personality as Garrett, and he's a damn hard act to follow.

burrickfart
17th May 2009, 21:46
Garrett is the only thief ever worth playing. Don't ever forget that!
Let him apprentice the girl at the end of TDS, and have her draw him into some huge near-apocalyptic ordeal (Preferably involving giant moving trees again).
Or have her turn against Garrett, leading to an all out battle for thief supremacy. Then we can club her and feed her to the watch.

huzi73
17th May 2009, 23:07
This is just my crappy idea...1st of all,Garrett wasnt trained as a thief,he was trained to be a keeper.How about Garrett training the girl from the TDS ending in the way of the keeper?Garrett is now all laid back and running the show as a keeper,dedicating his time to somehow...(I just realized,this probably doesnt belong here,I'll make a PLOT thread instead...)

xDarknessFallsx
18th May 2009, 00:14
Stephen Russell as Garrett only, please. No other female or male lead. No sidekick helping out either. (Sidekicks are too prevalent these days and they spoil the sense of aloneness and vulnerability. take prince of persia, for example, or resident evil 5, or turok the latest version, or any number of squad based games. sidekicks ruin games for me - especially 'isolated, loner games' - and would certainly ruin Thief, imo.) Garrett as a loner is ideal for me. i can see maybe one mission where there is an up and coming thief helping out in a part of a level or thru the level, or something, but nothing more. i would want that other guy to go off and do his own thing- u might stumble across him a few times in the shadows as u both work thru the level... not a constant sidekick at your heels. maybe he double crosses u in a later level. and i would not want that sidekick helper character becoming the lead in a Thi5f. just my two cents. And spending time, energy and resources on making a second character option to play, as mentionend earlier in thread, would just take thosoe resources away from building stellar levels and awesome gameplay for Garrett. Dont be distracted by trying to please everyone who is not a Thief fan by adding a bunch of character options and customizations...it will dilute the Thief fan's game or it will not be as good as it otherwise could have been. save money and resources by not developing big budget CG-ized teaser trailers too. That money could be better spent making a quality game. The first time I played Thief and heard Garrett talk to himself like I was him (thief 2), I was like F yeah! this will be one awesome game

WVI
18th May 2009, 20:09
Okay, guys? I love the series and all, but Garrett isn't that spectacular a character. He is replaceable.

Seriously.

Palmberg
19th May 2009, 22:15
Okay, guys? I love the series and all, but Garrett isn't that spectacular a character. He is replaceable.

Seriously.


Well, that's your opinion. I on the other hand think he really is spectacular.

What isn't spectacular however is the damn apprentice idea, so clichéd and out of character for Garrett. I didn't really take the TDS ending seriously, it seems like Ion storm meant it to be the ending of the series, and put in the scene with the girl just as a throw back to the beginning of TDP, a nod to the fans nothing more.

Petike the Taffer
20th May 2009, 21:19
Garrett should remain the protagonist for most of the game, but there should also be missions with the girl as his apprentice and possible future replacement.

Garrett has evolved as a character throughout all three games and has certainly become less antisocial and misanthropic than he was years ago, when he got pissed and left the Keepers. Of course, he's still the rough and alienated antihero and deadpan snarker he always was, but he's learnt and matured, feeling he's growing old and won't be able to remain the best thief and Keeper-like protector of balance forever...

The relationship between him and his would-be adopted daughter should be by no means idillic. Garrett has a good heart, but he's used to being a loner and pretty much sticking to himself. Conflicts between the two are therefore logical - though, please, I would hate to see the clichéd "oh, look, I'm in puberty, you don't understand me, I'm so angsty..." approach to the whole thing. Lets just say the girl feels unappriciated by her mentor. He's an old grumpy lion and she's just a young cub, who'll have to win his full respect.

For the most part, I could imagine the girl doing what Garrett originally did to survive on the streets - running and delivering messages, but in this case, from fence to fence. She'd only be in an early stage of training by Garrett, who felt reluctant to start giving her thieving lessons after she didn't turn out to be as talented as much as he originally thought she was. After he starts to regret the whole idea of taking her in (around the middle of the game), she convinces him, that she wants to seriously follow his path and live up to his legendary reputation. She starts to show avid effort during training and Garrett gradually starts admiring her relentless will to become a full-blown pro like him.

So, you would only play a few short mini-missions for her, running some messages and valuable loot that Garrett didn't have the time or possibility to deliver. You'd still use stealth - actually, only ghosting, no weaponry...

And they should NEVER go together on a real mission. She's young, not a thief yet, thieving is still Garrett's job. They could experience the last few events of the game together, but the girl would only be a computer-controlled NPC, watching from a secure distance or appearing only in a cutscene.

Petike the Taffer
20th May 2009, 21:37
Dont be distracted by trying to please everyone who is not a Thief fan by adding a bunch of character options and customizations...

Now that was just... If Thief IV has to be interesting, quality and appealing, it should feature a lot of choices and customization of difficulty and realism : Casual gamers will play on the easiest stealth level with all HUDs on and enough gear, hard-core fans will tune the game options so they could ghost, NPC AI at the highest level of awareness, nearly no gear and no visible HUDs (except the light gem).

hellwalker
21st May 2009, 01:44
Hi,
I was wondering, the ending of Deadly Shadows where young girl and Garrett, repeat Garrets first encounter with Keeper.
any chanse that girl will be protagonist of Thiaf 4? [thi4f=thiAf]

Final of DS left such impression, and there are some other points in favor of this possibility.

1. Cutscene at the end of Deadly Shadows
2. Garrett is like what? 35~40 years old in Deadly Shadows ?
3. Emil Pagliarulo, former developer working on Thief gold/metal age/deadly shadows, he now works at bethesda on Tes/Fall out. He was answering questions on one of the oblivions fan forums, some Q-s were about thief, and he confirmed there that, even if there was another Thief Game - Garret's Story was done.
[I tried finding exact post but search on that forum is broken and I can't browse through 65 pages, you can check out thread though, many questions about thief, kinda retrospective/interview http://z13.invisionfree.com/Kaleem/index.php?showtopic=32&st=420]

Now all this means is that original thief developers team, at the time when DS was finished, thought Garrett's story done. If I remember correcly Emil also said that Thief was originally intended as a Trilogy, with part of the DS story already done while working on Dark Project.

So what do you think about female thief ? :D after playing thief 2x: shadows of metal age mod I kind of like the idea. Garrett's still best choice but I can find little ways of him being back in action again.

Mr. Perfect
21st May 2009, 01:59
I think it would be interesting. That line in the T3 cutscene was like Garrett's story coming full circle, the student becoming the teacher. There are probably quite a few people who want to play as Garret though.

Palmberg
21st May 2009, 02:01
TDS ended the way it did because it was meant to end the series. If they feel that Garrett's story is over and all they should either make a remake or have the game set between the time Garrett left the keepers and the start of TDP, or maybe inbetween TMA and TDS? It would just be stupid to have access to this great character that is Garrett only to shove him aside when there actually is no need to. Or maybe people just want a new Velvet Assassin game where you run around in your nightie stabbing nazis in the face...

hellwalker
21st May 2009, 02:18
TDS ended the way it did because it was meant to end the series. If they feel that Garrett's story is over and all they should either make a remake or have the game set between the time Garrett left the keepers and the start of TDP, or maybe inbetween TMA and TDS? It would just be stupid to have access to this great character that is Garrett only to shove him aside when there actually is no need to. Or maybe people just want a new Velvet Assassin game where you run around in your nightie stabbing nazis in the face...

I'd rather run around with another velvet assassin character, then have the story raped.
if Garrett did something epic inbetween any thief games, we would know it, and as much as I would like playing non-epic "just Garrets good old thievry stories" I can't see them doing this. That would be just die hard only fans game, and devs want some next gen noobie greensie papers.

Palmberg
21st May 2009, 02:37
I'd rather run around with another velvet assassin character, then have the story raped.
if Garrett did something epic inbetween any thief games, we would know it, and as much as I would like playing non-epic "just Garrets good old thievry stories" I can't see them doing this. That would be just die hard only fans game, and devs want some next gen noobie greensie papers.

Having a Velvet assassin type protagonist would not only "rape" the story but the entire Thief series. They wouldn't get my greensie papers that's for sure.

Inspector Drept
21st May 2009, 02:41
I would like to play as the girl.

Maybe Eidos can make TH4 about Garrett and then later add an expansion pack with missions with her. Just like Half-Life and Opposing Force/Blue Shift where you can play in the same universe but with different point of views.

That would please the hardcore that only play as Garrett and the people that love the different characters of Thief universe.

hellwalker
21st May 2009, 03:59
Having a Velvet assassin type protagonist would not only "rape" the story but the entire Thief series. They wouldn't get my greensie papers that's for sure.

To be honest I haven't played velvet assassin yet and know little about it's protagonist.
But I do believe its possible to create great stealthy female character, some rogue like trouble maker would be nice. :rolleyes:

hellwalker
21st May 2009, 04:08
I must admit I'm also more than a bit troubled with square enix purchase of eidos.

While I can live with new/or female protagonist, image of that said female protagonist as Anime style cutie in Dark victorian-medieval schoolgirl uniform, wielding giant blackjack troll would have trouble lifting is more creepy then Haunted cathedral and Shalebridge cradle put together.:hmm:

anime be damned

Corvin25
21st May 2009, 05:48
Not that I have anything against female player characters, but we really want to see GARRETT return. We miss him. :(

Corvin25
21st May 2009, 05:53
I must admit I'm also more than a bit troubled with square enix purchase of eidos.

While I can live with new/or female protagonist, image of that said female protagonist as Anime style cutie in Dark victorian-medieval schoolgirl uniform, wielding giant blackjack troll would have trouble lifting is more creepy then Haunted cathedral and Shalebridge cradle put together.:hmm:

anime be damned

....

....

*holds gun to head* :'(

I really hope they are leaving all development aspects to Eidos Montreal. The LAST thing Thief needs is giant-size swords, miniskirts, and 14 year old scantily clad anrogynous protagonists.

Thieffanman
21st May 2009, 07:07
Not that I have anything against female player characters, but we really want to see GARRETT return. We miss him. :(

Second that. What little I saw of "Shadows Of The Metal Age" was pretty good, but it's only a "Thief" game when Garrett is in it :).

--Thieffanman

P.S. Also want to add my vote to no "anime-styled" game. No characters with big eyes, small mouths, giant weapons and schoolgirl outfits. I'll pass, thanks.

Mikkowl
21st May 2009, 07:17
I'm sure this is long since decided by the development team.

I can only say that it's not important to me. Female characters have just as much potential as male characters. Furthermore, Garrett already is historical within the Thief universe, and came 'full circle' as of the amazing ending of Thief 3. A new character has potential to become another loved character, like Garrett was.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
21st May 2009, 08:17
A female protagonist (girl grown up) could work, someone similar to Keira Knightley's Guinevere in King Arthur, perhaps?

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu83/T4Mod/keira.jpg


Obviously, I want Garrett back too but I'm not against the idea of him teaching his tricks of the trade to another. Perhaps missions can be split between Garrett and a female protagonist? If implemented well, it could work.

Corvin25
21st May 2009, 09:09
A female protagonist (girl grown up) could work, someone similar to Keira Knightley's Guinevere in King Arthur, perhaps?

Obviously, I want Garrett back too but I'm not against the idea of him teaching his tricks of the trade to another. Perhaps missions can be split between Garrett and a female protagonist? If implemented well, it could work.

I'm... afraid that picture isn't quite what we have in mind, Viktoria. :scratch:

She looks like the type who WANTS you to know she was there, what with the skimpy outfit and lack of a cloak. ;)

I'm thinking something more like this: http://th05.deviantart.com/fs30/300W/f/2008/050/f/d/Steampunk_Assassin_by_Conceptbloke.jpg

.... Well.... except without the ridiculous hoop skirt. o_o

Lady_Of_The_Vine
21st May 2009, 09:14
My attention wasn't drawn to the skimpy outfit, unlike you. :p
I actually like the general style of her character, particularly the facial and arm tattoos. :)

Alex50
21st May 2009, 09:50
It would be desirable to see by the main character Garrett. The introduction of the new heroes can improve game and storyline. In the name there is a hint - Thi4F(emale). Serial passage for Garrett and female protagonist the best decision. But use female protagonist can change gameplay to 3r-person. It is beautiful, but it will turn out Velvet Assassin, but not Thief. I hope she will not shine by a naked stomach on a pair of quarters. :)
Keira Knightley's as the prototype can be used. But tattoos suit only for Pagans.

Platinumoxicity
21st May 2009, 09:54
If the female protagonist idea is going to be implemented, make her just as cynical, sarcastic, viscious, arrogant and unsocial as Garrett is. Just like Nasreen in Far Cry 2, without hearing her voice you wouldn't know she's a girl.

And give her the same kind of clothes and cloaks that Garrett uses. It's practicality over everything else.

And if you insist showing her appearance in some point, don't you dare making her beautiful. Make her look as raggedy, dirty and like those stereotype lesbians as humanly possible. Instead of cute or sexy, make her look badass like "Holly" in "The Descent".
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/1592/njn.png
The image doesn't reflect too well what she's really like in the movie.

hellwalker
21st May 2009, 13:18
I don't want ugly protagonist female :P
She can look badass and beautiful together, like anah from planescape :P