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Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th May 2009, 13:15
The series gives the player an assortment of mêlée weapons including the blackjack (club), sword, assorted arrows, potions and tools to augment Garrett's abilities. In T3, the rope arrow was replaced with special climbing gloves.

For "Thief", do you welcome the return of the familiar tools of your trade? Perhaps you have ideas for better or additional items?
Let's discuss...

Subjective Effect
11th May 2009, 13:27
Rope arrows that you can swing on or use at rope slides. Rope arrows are SO important it'd be crazy not to have them. Especially given the grapple functionality in Tomb Raider Underworld given the engine core is likely to be the same.

But give us the climbing gloves too and let us use them this time. They were next to useless in Thief 3. One of the great things about Thief 1 and 2 was the ability to climb around and explore the heights and the rooftops. It was so popular people would boast about getting to the top of all sorts of places.

Lockpicking that requires skill.

A garrote (for Garrett oh lol).

The remote eye back please.

Holy water arrows back please.

Wind arrows like in the Inverted Manse FM for Thief 2.

Safe cracking tools - and safes to crack!

Optional bow/crossbow and specific arrow types for them - there is a scene in one of the Pink Panther films where the thief uses a crossbow to create a slide for escape. That would fit right in.

Optional sword or dagger - sword to do more damage but is more visible and makes you a bit slower, dagger for silent kills but you are more agile and less visible and less able to fight face to face.

Poison doses for the dagger/sword. Paralysis, sleep or amnesia.

A tiny lantern with finite fuel - for those super dark places.

Bring back all the potions.

That's all for now :)

Edit: saw this joke thread over at TTLG forums - http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126545 - and seriously you could have mushrooms as tools. Ones you eat yourself to alter your perception for specific advantages (think Batman Begins - Thief is pretty Batman after all :p ), ones you use to make the poisons I suggested and perhaps (and I know this is a liiittle silly) mushrooms you put in guards/targets food to make them sleep.

mclusky
11th May 2009, 13:31
Make this full of ideas from Dark Project/Gold/Metal Age. :)

mister_riz
11th May 2009, 13:33
Intuitive lockpicking (Oblivion has the best so far)

Remove climbing gloves as this ruined the game for me (so easy to escape guards)

Bring back rope arrows.

I honestly believe we don't need any kind of revolution in any sense here (cept gfx for some I suppose), Thief2 was evolution from the first... focused on mission/story/level design and we LOVED it.

Don't get fixed on 'new' stuff just give us a new story!

edit: v. much like the safe cracking thing SE

kin
11th May 2009, 13:39
I like to see the "coin" tool. Drop it on a path and someone will pick it up, perfect time for a blackjack or for "ghosting".
Throwing it causes also distraction by noise.
2 uses in one tool.

imported_van_HellSing
11th May 2009, 13:41
Rop4 arrows ar4 a must. Th4y'v4 b44n sor4ly miss4d in D4adly Shadows. Also, I would c4rtainly lik4 to s44 th4 nuanc4d swordfighting back.

Subjective Effect
11th May 2009, 13:49
Wow. You were never this antisocial over at TTLG. What happened man? You can talk to me anytime if something is bothering you. PM me at TTLG and we'll arrange an irc chat. Phew...

imported_van_HellSing
11th May 2009, 13:53
*takes hat off*

Oh yes I were, you just remember the good things ;). I'll probably be over this in a few days, unless something equally retarded crops up.

Spyhopping
11th May 2009, 14:06
Hehe- antisocial? Visiting the DX3 forums may redefine the meaning of that word for you ;)

Let's see classic weapons, but some innovations too.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th May 2009, 14:40
I definitely want to see the return of the rope/vine arrow. :cool:

acridrose
11th May 2009, 15:09
That's a good thing you say that, Viktoria! :D

Barsavian
11th May 2009, 15:17
Rope arrows
I liked that Idea of leaving coin for the thick guards to pick up and get bludgeoned.

TazmanianD
11th May 2009, 15:23
I thought the upgraded elemental arrows in Thief 2x were great. I particularly liked the ice arrow with the ability to freeze water so you could walk across areas you otherwise couldn't get to. I would like to see more tools that are useful to those of us who play as ghosts or non-killers instead of better ways to kill or harm your enemies. I like the coin from No One Lives Forever that you could toss as a distraction (without necessarily causing a spike in alert level).

Gorephazer
11th May 2009, 15:30
I can't decide which one I like better.

Discuss.

DarthEnder
11th May 2009, 15:31
Rapier + Crossbow.

Thievingtaffer
11th May 2009, 15:32
I'd prefer to have the old sword back, but that's just me. I liked the feel better, it made it feel more Medieval, and ancient for some reason. I think it might be nostalgia or something, and I might just be associating the sword with the better games.

SgtSausagepants
11th May 2009, 15:38
I liked the dagger over the sword personally. It felt more like the kind of thing a thief would carry around, as opposed to a large unwieldy sword.

Gorephazer
11th May 2009, 15:44
I like the idea of having a melee and a ranged weapon slot. So you would start out with a standard bow and sword but you could buy a crossbow or throwing knives to replace your bow and a dagger or different type of sword to fill the melee weapon slot.

Smiffydude
11th May 2009, 15:45
The climbing gloves, must be gotten rid of, and the rope arrow reintroduced. The gloves just made way Deadly Shadows too easy, compared to the first two games.

And I agree with bringing the sword back, but as an either/or option with the dagger, when choosing equipment. Dagger would be for if you want maximum stealth, but would be less useful in a fight. The sword would be better in combat but make you more noticable.

Nate
11th May 2009, 16:01
I know some of you have already responded to my suggestion for a WEIGHT/ENCUMBRANCE system in another forum. But here it is again.

I would like to see Garrett able to choose exactly what weapons, armor (yes, I'd like to see leather armor in the game) and equipment to either bring with him on missions or to leave behind.

However, each piece of equipment, armor and weapon would have a weight/encumbrance value attached to it. So, the more equipment, armor and weapons Garrett carries, the greater the penalty he suffers.

Penalties could include Garrett becoming more noisy while moving, more easily seen, slower, reduced jumping range, reduced climbing speed, and so on.

This would give players more play style options for how to complete missions. Minimalists would be able to enjoy some stealth/speed advantages in completing missions, while 'gadget' loving players can burn through missions using tons of arrows and equipment.....hmmm, 'gadget' loving players would also become more stealthy as they used up their heavy equipment during the course of a mission.

This next 'suggestion' might not be feasible, but I'll throw it in anyway. It would also be neat if Loot had a weight/encumbrance value. Of course, it couldn't be as much as equipment/weapons/armor, or it would discourage thieving too much.

Nate
11th May 2009, 16:06
In Thief DS, I tended to Ghost missions and not use much (if any) equipment. Of course, this quickly resulted in me having ridiculous amounts of $ by the end of the game...and NOTHING to spend it on.

I hope that in Thief 4, Garrett has the option of purchasing INSANELY priced uber equipment/armor/weapons that are only slightly better than the standard fare. So this way, Ghost players would actually have something to spend their $ on, without leaving the 'gadget' type players without enough $ to buy what they need.

Some of this uber stuff could include improved stealth boots, magic weapons/armor, lighter/smaller shortbow, superior lockpicks, more effective flash-bangs, and so on.....

Subjective Effect
11th May 2009, 16:11
However, each piece of equipment, armor and weapon would have a weight/encumbrance value attached to it. So, the more equipment, armor and weapons Garrett carries, the greater the penalty he suffers.
This.

DarthEnder
11th May 2009, 16:17
I like the idea of weak and strong versions of the elemental arrows as well.

Especially since some of the arrows were extremely powerful(gas), while others were very common and utilitarian.

So you have two levels of each elemental type. Where the weak versions are cheap/common, and the strong versions are rare/expensive.

Water Lv1 - Water Arrow - Washes up blood, douses fires, disables iron beasts etc.
Water Lv2 - Ice Arrow - Freezes enemies, makes platforms in water etc.

Fire Lv1 - Fire Arrow - Sets things on fire. Ignites zombies, tree beasts, lamps etc.
Fire Lv2 - Starburst Arrow - Like the original fire arrow. An explosive blast. Like Thief's rocket launcher.

Earth Lv1 - Sand Arrow - Blinds people shot in the face, creates carpets of sand like moss arrows
Earth Lv2 - Stone Arrow - Turns enemies to statues.

Air Lv1 - Mist Arrow - Creates a cloud of mist that obscures vision like a smoke cloud.
Air Lv2 - Lightning Arrow - Creates a burst that knocks out any guards in its blast(must like the old gas arrow), also sends iron beasts heywire.

Life Lv1 - Moss Arrow - Carpets of sound absorbing moss, silence guards if shot in the face.
Live Lv2 - Vine Arrow - Creates ropes of vine when fired into any wooden surface, just like the old rope arrow.

Metal Lv1 - Noise Arrow - Creates a sound like metal weapons clashing against each other, for drawing guards attention.
Metal Lv2 - Rust Arrow - Destroyes a guards weapons/armor, and destroyes iron beasts.

Grimmy
11th May 2009, 16:21
Definitely bring back the rope arrow, so many great moments in OM's and FM's were made where one could climb to some unbelievable places and then go brag about it in the forums :P Rope arrows with maybe some new features as some mentioned here are a big YES.

a big no-no is for any fantasy/rpg sort of weapons, ok so we have elemental arrows and some potions just don't overdo it please.

didn't read through the whole thread yet, but i'd maybe like to see a silent footstep potion, anything that would add up to stealthy ways of Garrett is a YES.

UrUkUs
11th May 2009, 16:24
small crossbow and dagger, maybe trowing daggers also?

UrUkUs
11th May 2009, 16:25
Definitely bring back the rope arrow, so many great moments in OM's and FM's were made where one could climb to some unbelievable places and then go brag about it in the forums :P Rope arrows with maybe some new features as some mentioned here are a big YES.

a big no-no is for any fantasy/rpg sort of weapons, ok so we have elemental arrows and some potions just don't overdo it please.

didn't read through the whole thread yet, but i'd maybe like to see a silent footstep potion, anything that would add up to stealthy ways of Garrett is a YES.


hah yeah, catfall potions could be phun, TUT ftw!

Grimmy
11th May 2009, 16:31
Also, someone mentioned coins as a form of distraction to the NPC's, in Thievery we had small rocks implemented, altho there were some sound glitches, with rocks echoing too much as far as i remember, they were giving guards a small damage or they could have been used as a said distraction. Of course best would be to put them in reasonable amounts on some maps, not lying on every corner :P

@ urukus - i didn't mean a catfall, cus there was a slow fall potion in Thief alredy, I meant only a footstep silencer, but then again this could be combined into one potion, fairly priced as well, so that it wouldn't be abused.

UrUkUs
11th May 2009, 16:42
Also, someone mentioned coins as a form of distraction to the NPC's, in Thievery we had small rocks implemented, altho there were some sound glitches, with rocks echoing too much as far as i remember, they were giving guards a small damage or they could have been used as a said distraction. Of course best would be to put them in reasonable amounts on some maps, not lying on every corner :P

@ urukus - i didn't mean a catfall, cus there was a slow fall potion in Thief alredy, I meant only a footstep silencer, but then again this could be combined into one potion, fairly priced as well, so that it wouldn't be abused.

yeah thats nice idea, trowing things to fool guards.:whistle:

Danie1
11th May 2009, 17:20
The simple weapons and items in Thief/Thief II were good. From Thief DS, I would say the climbing gloves need to be done away with the the rope arrow reintroduced. Also, it was nice to have inventory carry over from mission to mission, but that led to having a large horde of stuff, and definetly took the difficulty out of later mission - that should also be fixed, if not done away with.

Novel ideas are good, but simplicity prevents problems from arising.

Nate
11th May 2009, 17:31
The simple weapons and items in Thief/Thief II were good. From Thief DS, I would say the climbing gloves need to be done away with the the rope arrow reintroduced. Also, it was nice to have inventory carry over from mission to mission, but that led to having a large horde of stuff, and definetly took the difficulty out of later mission - that should also be fixed, if not done away with.

Novel ideas are good, but simplicity prevents problems from arising.

Hi Danie1. Thief DS provided enough $ for average players to replace their equipment from mission to mission.

However, Ghost players (like myself) would end up not using much (IF ANY) equipment during missions = I had a ton of $ by the games end and nothing to spend it on.

My suggestion for the devs to get around that is the following:

Standard equipment/weapons/armor can be purchased at stores at standard pricing. This will allow players who use a lot of equipment to get through successive missions.

However, Superior quality (or special or magical) equipment/weapons/armor should also be made available to players at INSANELY high prices. This will allow Ghost players to have a use for their hard thieved $.

When I say INSANELY high prices, I mean that even really good Ghost players who save their pennies would only be able to buy a couple of these items before the game is done.

Some of these uber items could include magic armor/weapons, better stealth boots/outfit, lighter/smaller/quicker bow, better flash-bangs, magical rings, and so on....

Of course, these superior items should only be slightly better than the standard equipment. I want to give frugal players something to spend their $ on, not unbalance the game.

Neb
11th May 2009, 17:42
Rope and moss arrows I'd love to see return. Apart from those I'm not really bothered how they juggle all of the equipment.

Nate
11th May 2009, 17:44
Hmmm, I am surprised I didn't get more input on the suggestion to incorporate a weight/encumbrance system into Thief 4.

What do you guys think about Garrett suffering some physical/stealth penalties from carrying a full equipment load out. I mean, when Garrett is fully loaded up (bow, ~40 heavy arrows, healing potions, holy water, flash-bangs, dagger/short sword, black jack, tools) he must have an extra 60-80 lbs on him (not including the loot he carries).

Players could choose to go into missions with less equipment (but no penalties) or carrying 'everything but the kitchen sink' (but with physical/stealth penalties). It would mix up how players could approach missions.

Subjective Effect
11th May 2009, 18:05
Yeah, I'm into that. I already said so though, didn't I?

I'd like to see a greater restriction on the amount of gear you can take with you. Make it realistic. In TDS you could carry far too much stuff.

And make the holy water arrows use up water arrows again.

Nate
11th May 2009, 18:14
Yeah, a holy vial should make your water arrows holy for a period of time like they used to do....how does that work? Does Garrett dip his water arrows in the vial before shooting them off?

I still like the idea of being able to toss around the holy water vials as well though.

Hmmm, maybe holy water arrows could do much less damage than a full vial of holy water?

Nate
11th May 2009, 18:15
Hi Subjective Effect. The Minimalist Project for Thief DS tried to put more restrictions on what Garrett could carry into missions. You might want to check that out.

_OskaR
11th May 2009, 18:27
Rope arrows was good. Maybe more difficult to implement today because of physics but in The Dark Mod it was done pretty good.

UrUkUs
11th May 2009, 18:53
what about to add a bag/rucksack + weight system?

You know, i always wondered of Garrets powers, how can he run/jump/mantle with large amount of loot?

Also Garret should make more noise when he has loot and unable to run with that heavy bag, if guards see you, you have pretty low chance to escape.

So, that could make sense, to drop your bag full with loot somewhere in sewers, then continue at objectives, when everything is done, go back to pick up bag and end mission.

Brian the Dog
11th May 2009, 19:51
The blackjack is iconic for me, it has to be there! Rope arrows are a must as well. One thing I'd like removed please, since it was in Thief III, is the automated blackjacking, it was nowhere near as smooth as in the Dark Engine games.

GmanPro
11th May 2009, 19:56
I say bring back the sword. But make it smaller. A short sword.

I was just thinking maybe ... some sort of tranquilizer dart weapon? Yes? No? Maybe?

Gorephazer
11th May 2009, 20:02
A blowgun with poison-tipped darts? 0_o

Subjective Effect
11th May 2009, 20:58
Hi Subjective Effect. The Minimalist Project for Thief DS tried to put more restrictions on what Garrett could carry into missions. You might want to check that out.
I know all about the other games and the mods. I'm a long time TTLG member, FM player, TUT player and Dark Mod enthusiast. I even helped run the site petitioning the release of the T3 editor. TDS was... disappointing tbh. I've no wish to mod it or play it again.

Danie1
11th May 2009, 21:06
Hi Danie1. Thief DS provided enough $ for average players to replace their equipment from mission to mission.

However, Ghost players (like myself) would end up not using much (IF ANY) equipment during missions = I had a ton of $ by the games end and nothing to spend it on.

My suggestion for the devs to get around that is the following:
...

Hey Nate.

I like that idea. I can see that maybe both of your ideas could be incorporated by making more expensive inventory weigh less than regular priced items.
I'd rather stay away from adding in magical items, or items that make the game easier for penny pinchers - it's not like they'd need them anyway. I'm also a bit hesitant to make the inventory very extensive. Scrolling through items is a bit like looking through your pockets, but scolling through a lot of them is time consuming. A large inventory would probably lead to implementing an item select screen, which could be done well (perhaps by makng a screen that looked like Garrett looking into his cloak pockets, ala Alone in the Dark) but would still need work. I suppose quick keys is also a good solution.
The weight/incumberance system could be a solution to having overabundant supplies, but at the same time, some of the most annoying results of implementing it is having to run back and forth to get an item you left behind. Deus Ex and System Shock had that problem. Not having the required chemicals to complete my research or wishing I had the sniper rifle instead of the assault rifle drove me crazy.

DarthEnder
11th May 2009, 21:12
I'd actually like to see a "combine items in your inventory midmission" type system. Like you'd see in a Resident Evil game.

Instead of buying a bunch of water arrows, you have your arrows, and your water crystals, and you make them during the mission. And to make an Ice arrow would take some kind of third ingredient that makes the arrow more powerful.

Give the player a variety of explosive charges: Blast, Flash, Noisemaker, Gas...and then give them Bomb cases and Mine cases and have the player put whatever charge he wants into whichever case he wants.


I wouldn't want the apothecary aspect of equipment to be shortchanged either. One of the things I really liked from DS was the flasks. Holy Water and Oil were kinda neat, and much better than the original implimentation of Holy Water. Add in Acid flasks, bring back all the old potions: healing, speed, floating, waterbreathing, invisibility, and if the main character isn't Garret, a darkvision potion as well.


I certainly don't mind the idea of a weight limit on the character, as long as there isn't a space limit. I always hate inventory systems where your carrying space is sliced up into some kind of grid and you have to try and cram things into it.

Princess_Frosty
11th May 2009, 21:14
You need to bring back rope arrows 100% absolutely.

Climbing gloves seemed cheap somehow, probably because they were a replacement for the rope arrows which were so much more fun and cooler.

To be honest Thief 2 had all the weapons and gadgets a Thief would need, I'd probably add a powerful singleshot short range crossbow that fires a heavy bolt and can take out a target in 1 hit, but has only 1 shot and cannot be reloaded while in a mission. It would serve as a panic button to allow you to distrub a guard by accident and then whip it out and get a more or less guranteed kill swiftly. Maybe it's loaded in a workshop with a really powerful machine to pull the bow back, so can only be used once.

Maybe a smoke bomb thing in addition to the flash bangs, let off smoke screen that lasts for a few seconds and disorientates guards for a few seconds, allowing you to fire a rope arrow into the ceiling and escape across the rafters :)

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
11th May 2009, 21:15
The less killing stuff the better. Remember the old "you are a thief - not a murderer", I imagine a similar logic also applies to the true keeper. But yes, rope/vine arrows, climbing gear and stealth/soft shoes! (moving fast quietly is a skill that garret should manage on most hard surfaces by now, even without moss arrows- which are great non-lethal weapons btw :D )

lurker667
11th May 2009, 21:53
Rope Arrows! Especially with high-physics swinging capability. Endless possibilities!

Applying Holy Water, Acids, Anesthesia, and Burning Oils to daggers and arrows would be awesome.

And for pete's sake, give us a damp cloth or something we can put out torches with so we don't have to waste a water arrow! I feel ridiculous shooting a torch from 2 feet away with a bow and arrow.

The mechanical eye also needs to return, with some limited zoom and night vision capabilities. And have it take screenshots while you're at it for puzzle and blackmail purposes.

Mshade
11th May 2009, 22:11
Everything from past entries. But add weight/space limitation to how much you can carry like in Oblivion.

There is big debate over whether Garrett should have his longsword or dagger. I am going to vote for longsword for several reason. In TDP and T2 the longsword was only used in confrontation where you were caught and literally had to fight or die. But even then Garrett isn't a fighter and even with the longsword you couldn't go Rambo and kill everyone. The dagger on the only hand seemed out of place for me at least. The dagger is extremely shortranged and confrontations were extremely dangerous so it was much smarter in Thief:DS to run and hide then fight. Also, the dagger's other main purpose was to stab someone in the back of the neck and kill them instead of using the blackjack and knocking them out. I found that very out of place as Garrett is a THIEF not a cold-blooded killer. So I'm going to have to vote for the longsword.

Also, I don't think there needs to be any more weapons such as crossbows or blow-darts and whatever everyone else is suggesting. Those are completely unnecessary and take away from the stealth feeling of the game if you can just kill everyone.

What I'd like to see if the inclusion of all the different types of arrows, flash-bangs, maybe a smoke grenade but most of all I'd like to see more interactive environments and creative weapons. Like in thief: DS how you could throw an oil slick on the floor then light it up. That was awesome!

On lockpicking, both Fallout 3 and Oblivion have excellent lockpicking systems which should be looked at.

Also, more pickpocketing! :D

DarthEnder
11th May 2009, 22:20
There's an awful lot of people trying to dictate how other people play Thief games in this thread.

No killing for harder difficulties is great and all but trying to force everyone to play that way is a recipe for failure.

You've ALWAYS been able to go through the game killing every guard if you were so inclined, and nothing in the storyline actually suggests that Garrett feels one way or the other on the subject.

So please stop projecting your own fanfiction ideas of what Thief is into the game.

ironpants
11th May 2009, 22:24
I'm a big advocate of the original sword & swordfighting system. George Silver explains it best in Paradoxes of Defence that a shorter backsword affords you excellent protection; whereas the dagger and rapier, being purely offensive weapons, offer none. Thus, a shortsword is the natural choice for someone like Garrett, who needs it as protection for when things go horribly wrong - its primary purpose is not taking life, but saving his own! In contrast, the dagger is quite useless.

I love how it directly translates to good gameplay in T/T2: It's way more fun to parry and block sword blows until seizing a window of escape than reload your way out of a bad situation!

Crypto
11th May 2009, 22:31
I'd prefer a simple multipurpose knife (a nasty, razor-edged knife, not a prissy dagger like the one in T3!) to a sword. It could even replace the blackjack—use the butt/pommel to knock 'em out—but the blackjack is iconic so I guess that would do more bad than good. It's simply impractical to haul around a two-and-a-half-foot sword while you're tiptoeing through the tight, craggy corridors of a medieval manse.

I think a good solution would be to give Garrett a long knife, sixteen inches or so. It'd be capable of parrying sword thrusts and cuts but would present the player a nice challenge when it comes to getting in close and finishing off the enemy, and defending against more than one or two enemies would be next to impossible. After all, unless you're goofing around you probably shouldn't be in that situation anyway: Garrett is a thief, not a tank. I find that small-scale skirmishes with talented, heavily armed opponents are far more intense than five- or six-man melees, especially in games like this.

Another possibility would be for Garrett to utilize makeshift weapons when a knife won't do: a chair, a butcher's cleaver, a woodsman's ax, a big vase, a dead guard's sword, a torch, etc. The variable weapons could make for some great gaming dilemmas. For example, a torch would make for a great death tool, but you don't want the guard to catch fire and run away flaming down the hallway, alerting the whole damn castle. Et cetera.

Then again, that might be too much work for a game that likely shouldn't be focusing on the intricacies of combat.

Lastly, I'd love to see a small crossbow like the one below replace the bow, or at least, as the bow also seems to be an iconic Thief item, serve as an alternative. It's not ridiculously big, fits right into your hand; and more importantly, it's just too damn sexy!

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/phyreblade_blog/Weapons/Belgian%20Crossbow%20Pistol/Crossbows_Belgian_Crossbow_Pistol.jpg

Hott!


I'm a big advocate of the original sword & swordfighting system. George Silver explains it best in Paradoxes of Defence that a shorter backsword affords you excellent protection; whereas the dagger and rapier, being purely offensive weapons, offer none. Thus, a shortsword is the natural choice for someone like Garrett, who needs it as protection for when things go horribly wrong - its primary purpose is not taking life, but saving his own! In contrast, the dagger is quite useless.
Well, I imagine (admittedly I'm not a fencer) a dagger would be great if you can quickly get in close. If, however, they do go with a sword they should absolutely take you and others up on the sword idea. I doubt a lightweight, one-handed sword (http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=2257) (more sexy!) would present much of a mobility problem as far as realistic sneaking goes. Someone go test it out, now! Crouch around your house with a three yardsticks duct-taped together stuck through your belt. :D

One huge thing the sword does have going for it is the symbolism. I remember reading on the TTLG Thief forum that the sword is an honorable weapon, a good match for lovable rogues like Garrett or Robin Hood. Noble devs, I recommend you consider this along with debates over practicality.

I also agree with ironpants that a sturdy blade makes for great getaway moments.

Grimmy
11th May 2009, 23:05
Some of these uber items could include magic armor/weapons, better stealth boots/outfit, lighter/smaller/quicker bow, better flash-bangs, magical rings, and so on....






What do you guys think about Garrett suffering some physical/stealth penalties from carrying a full equipment load out. I mean, when Garrett is fully loaded up (bow, ~40 heavy arrows, healing potions, holy water, flash-bangs, dagger/short sword, black jack, tools) he must have an extra 60-80 lbs on him (not including the loot he carries).



It's a no-no man :hmm: Let's not turn this into a RPG, what would be next? Experience points? Dice rolling? :rolleyes: Games are games for a reason they don't have to be entirely realistic.

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
11th May 2009, 23:27
Well, he is referred to as a master thief (not an assassin or mass murderer). I think it is high time that the game actually addressed that. I am not saying that it should be impossible to kill, but I a saying that killing should have serious consequence.

Danie1
12th May 2009, 01:38
I prefer the sword. As stated by someone above, it was for protection when things go south. Having a dagger makes it seem like Garrett is out to kill. That's fine if people like to/want to kill everyone, but a sword is just as good as a dagger for killing with a backstab.

ironpants
12th May 2009, 01:58
...replace the blackjack—use the butt/pommel to knock 'em out... It's simply impractical to haul around a two-and-a-half-foot sword while you're tiptoeing through the tight, craggy corridors of a medieval manse.

Blackjacks are specifically for knocking people out, whereas hitting someone with a pommel is far more likely to kill or cause serious injury beyond concussion.

I've worn swords for weeks at a time and can vouch that it's not an impractical hindrance once you get used to it, even if you're using a waistbelt frog. Baldrics even allow you to adjust the carry position at will, much like a modern tactical sling. Keep in mind that almost everyone wore a sword back then, and it wasn't a problem until the silly long rapiers became fashionable later in the Renaissance.


I think a good solution would be to give Garrett a long knife, sixteen inches or so.

Sounds to me like you'd prefer a shorter shortsword - at sixteen inches, the blade will have some heft and really wouldn't be considered a dagger (or knife).


Lastly, I'd love to see a small crossbow like the one below replace the bow

Even normal size crossbows have a shorter quarrel cast than a bow has arrow cast - these silly little handheld crossbows like the mechanists had in T2 are realistically almost useless, and much clumsier than a shortbow. Maybe if they were as hilariously underpowered in the game as in real life I wouldn't mind them so much. :P

CurtX
12th May 2009, 02:09
Actually I wasn't a big fan of the sword, never used. Except for slashing banners to reveal secret stashes or passages. That was cool.

Crypto
12th May 2009, 02:18
Ah, thanks for the information, ironpants. It's nice to have someone with some actual experience around so I don't have to talk out of my ass in order to convey my ideas. :)

I was, however, under the impression that city-dwellers didn't consistently carry swords around until the advent of the rapier, or rather the cut and thrust sword.

I still love the crossbow. :o I'll have to find a way to mod it in. :D

Mr McGee
12th May 2009, 02:50
I've always had the idea of moss boots. The boots have moss on the bottom of them attached by some sort of sticky substance, and the moss slowly sort of falls off after time. They sound pretty powerful, so they'd probably have to be pretty expensive, and the moss shouldn't be able to attach for too long.

Necros
12th May 2009, 05:52
I say bring back the sword. But make it smaller. A short sword.
Hm, it would work but I like the dagger too. Just don't bring back the long sword, that doesn't make much sense for a thief.

kin
12th May 2009, 06:16
"Pepper" tool (a small bag maybe) for accidental close encounters.Works like flash bomb when the mechanists are not around to make them.
The "drug" tool, put it in wine and guard goes to sleep.
The "sh1t" tool put it in wine and guard goes to sh1t:D
The "smell" tool trow a bag of nasty smelling stuff in a room under the door and everyone goes out running.
ofcourse you will need a clothespin later.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th May 2009, 10:01
Hm, it would work but I like the dagger too. Just don't bring back the long sword, that doesn't make much sense for a thief.

Agreed, a short sword or dagger would make more sense.

Platinumoxicity
12th May 2009, 10:52
I never understood the point in the dagger. Why would you have two melee weapons that are both used for taking out enemies from behind? It didn't make any sense. If you have the option of quietly knocking someone out and the option of violently stabbing them in the back, so that they scream like hell and die, would you really want to go with the latter?

"Hukari" knife instead of the dagger. It's heavy enough to deal powerful blows, crack a skull in half from behind or take down small trees. (Yes, you can cut firewood with it. I've tried :) ) But, it's also small enough to be concealable and practical. Just like the meat cleaver in Hitman.
http://filesmelt.com/Imagehosting/pics/55a0054625c0d4d6983aed17d6b95d1a.PNG

kin
12th May 2009, 11:05
The "mouse" tool:
You can't distract undead by droping just a coin:D so you need to keep a small mouse with you. Undead is known that hate all living creatures so leting the mouse go you can distract the zompehh to move the direction of the mouse moving. The mouse could return to you later.:)
edit:Hopefully without the zombie folowing behind:D

Theefzor
12th May 2009, 11:22
Short Sword/Dagger - With Short Sword you cannot backstab but its better for face to face combat

Short Bow/Long Bow - With Long bow it takes more time to Aim/Reload, but its more powerfull than Short bow

Leather armors that have metal pieces in it gives more resistance against attacks but it decreases your stealth in shadows, and Leather armors that gives less resistance against attacks but its harder to guards see you while in shadows.

And if they're doing city like Thief3, you can change armors in your own house or before of the next mission.

There's some suggestions :D

lytefoot
12th May 2009, 11:22
Rope arrows are the most missed item. I really like the coin idea. From general game layout I would love to see more opportunities to climb and wander through areas. More discovery...

I see no need for improved melee items since we are suppossed to be thiefs but if it sells more games others can hack and slash their way through the game.

Platinumoxicity
12th May 2009, 12:35
Some very strange ideas that I've come up with:

These are special tools that you would have to find in a certain difficulty level and can only be used on that level.
(Or only in normal so that expert won't get too easy. ;) )

Tinnitus Artifact: When you shake it and throw it in a room, it produces some weird inverse sound that blocks everyone's hearing. When the artifact settles down, hearing is restored, and it takes a while before the artifact can be used again. (They were going to put this in T3, but as a "use-once" buyable tool called the Suppressor.)

Black Diamond: Another throwable item, emits darkness around it instead of light. The darkness slowly fades away as the diamond absorbs enough light and becomes brighter. The diamond can be re-used when it has turned black again.

http://filesmelt.com/Imagehosting/pics/17914453de4148a3b8034d2babfc9031.PNG

Dasfeld
12th May 2009, 14:11
One of the major changes we have all seen from Thief I+II to Thief 3 is the replacement of our Sword with a Dagger. This was met with some mixed feelings with some people but still with an understanding that Garret was a Thief.

I liked the shift they made with the Dagger in some aspects, however with no real punishment for killing people, it made me feel like a potential murderer going around with it.

With the Sword, it made me feel as if Garret was as good as a Thief as he was a Swordsman. The sword was great for dispatching creatures that had no mission critical aspects to them, and also if absolutly needed, allows you to at least fight a bit to slow down a Guard, or kill them on easier levels.

So, I ask the community, whats your feelings on this? Should we go back to using a Sword? Shall we stay the path and keep the Dagger? Or possibly as a friend of mine suggested, have a choice between the two?

I feel that we need a choice between the two weapons with pros and cons of taking one or the other, or at the very least just the sword. Although I still put all my faith in my trusty Blackjack, we need something to take care of our scaly and cuddly friends, the Burricks. :D

Also... Bring back Burricks if you would be so kind!

This was moved, unaware that the thread here was about this, didn't read... don't feel like rewording it so I'll keep it this ways hehehe.

DarthEnder
12th May 2009, 14:56
I honestly don't see the need for a distraction coin.

The first two thief games were littered with rocks and cups and plates and whatnot that could all be picked up and tossed to the exact same effect, and even if there wasn't some random object around, a normal arrow did the same thing anyway.

"Oh, I need that guard to go around that corner?" *thwack* "Arrow against the wall."


Well, he is referred to as a master thief (not an assassin or mass murderer). I think it is high time that the game actually addressed that. I am not saying that it should be impossible to kill, but I a saying that killing should have serious consequence.There is. It's called instant game over on Expert difficulty.

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
12th May 2009, 15:07
Anyone mentioned something similar to a loot-bag with limited room and the effects of carrying to much loot in terms of weight (speed reduction and running out of breath etc)?
Another thing could be having gold/gems and other items being more rare (and valuable) while copper and silver being more common.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th May 2009, 15:20
My apologies, but I have had to merge quite a few individual weapon-related threads into this one discussion.

Anyone who wishes to ask a specific question (for example, sword or dagger? etc) may be best creating a vote poll thread.
A poll emphasises questions of choice and works better for dedicated analysis and discussion.
Polls will not be merged into any other thread. :cool:

kin
12th May 2009, 15:22
Errmm can somebody show me how to make a poll?:hmm:

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th May 2009, 15:30
Errmm can somebody show me how to make a poll?:hmm:

1. View main board and click on NEW THREAD as you would normally
2. Scroll down to ADDITIONAL OPTIONS section
3. Tick box "Post a Poll" (Yes, post a poll with this thread)
4. Select number of poll options/questions: (Maximum: 10)
5. Click "Submit New Thread" underneath the additional options section
6. Create thread as normal and add the poll questions, then press SUBMIT


Hope that helps. :)

kin
12th May 2009, 16:10
it needs to have a text mesage when i click "Submit New Thread"

rezorrand
12th May 2009, 19:45
I already posted a long post in another section in the forum, but I included there an idea about a hook and a rope. That would be great, if you could rappel along the edges or throw the hook into some hard to reach place and go up there, that way there wouldn't be need to get wooden beams or gratings all over the place. Additionally the throwing could take some time, so it wouldn't make it too easy to escape from the guards.

When it comes to swords and daggers, I really dig the idea about either having a sword and a dagger or even this outfitting before the mission starts, which would then slow you down, noisier etc. the more stuff you have on. But still not an instant killing machine, as we all know, Garrett isn't one.

StalinsGhost
12th May 2009, 20:14
How about: RATS!

Garrett can purchase/"make" fake/dead rats. Been glimpsed by a guard? Drop one of these where they thought they saw you and scamper off. Take "must have been rats" to a whole new level! Perhaps even lead them astray by trailing string from them and pulling them about :D

Subjective Effect
12th May 2009, 20:19
Some very strange ideas that I've come up with:

Tinnitus Artifact:
Black Diamond:
This FTW.

Great new ideas.

StalinsGhost
12th May 2009, 20:25
Taking the line of magical artifacts, how about a time displacement orb? You place it in a room, causing everything inside it to slow down compared with real time. Thus, you throw it down giving you time to get away from guards chasing you, or alternatively place it in a guards path giving you a lot more time to get to where you're going.

Black Messiah
12th May 2009, 21:11
ah, nooo, no bullettime like crap :( , it is ruining the fun and atmosphere.

im happy with a sword(IMPORTANT!!!!) , the dagger and bow (with all the different arrows from thief 1-3), club

new weapons: maybe throwing knifes?
maybe different armor types to choose from:
1.) LIGHT: just a light cape yu are fast but easier to kill
2.) MEDIUM: Leather Armor: your better armoured and slower (maybe affect the sneaking a bit?)
3.) HEAVY: Metal armour: hard to kill but you move slower and louder

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
12th May 2009, 21:38
Somehow I doubt a thief would wear plate armour....

UrUkUs
12th May 2009, 21:47
what about, thief can make own clothes?

At least you could upgrade em,

more pockets, light/medium armor,

different camouflage types, snow/night/wood probably day?

vowdy
12th May 2009, 22:05
I would really like to see (assuming T4 will still be in a steampunk style) an engineering/tinkering function.

The possibilities are endless. You could buy schematics to turn normal items that you find everywhere (piece of rope, teddy-bear, glasses, shoes,...) and combine them into useful objects.

for example:

teddybear + shoe + coins + fire arrow = Toy car that drives around and makes alot of noise, distracting guards.
This ofcourse followed by unique (and hilarious) AI commentary.

or just make upgrades for your weapons.
add a scope made from glasses + copper tubes.
or attach a chandelier to your rope and make a sort of climbing hook from it.

Fallout 3 has a crafting system like this and in the end I played mostly with the 'homemade' weapons.


apart from that I also like the crossbow that shoots a sliding rope someone else mentioned earlier.

Botlas
12th May 2009, 22:30
I think T4 should stay away from lethal weapons. While you could go around killing everyone rather than knocking them out, the previous games really discouraged killing (with the blood stains, screaming, etc.). Let people go ahead and keep murdering everyone in sight if they want, but don't make it easier on them by giving them the equivalent of a lethal blackjack or some kind of one-hit kill crossbow.

Some kind of short range throwable blackjack would be handy. Bolas maybe? You'd have to limit the number of times they can be used though.

I'd like to see a hand mirror. The remote eye was a little too much of a pain to use regularly, but having a small mirror to look around corners would be handy. If you can figure out a way for it to reflect light to distract guards or something, that would be cool too. Give it a small risk of being spotted to it balance out.

Bring back the remote eye. Yes, I did say it was a pain, but it had it's uses. Throw in some new functions like night vision, or perhaps allow you to leave it in one spot then continue accessing it as you move around, sort of a portable security camera. Forget to pick it up before the end of the mission? Then you have to buy a new one.

Bring back the vine/rope arrows. I didn't like the climbing gloves, but you could keep those too. The climbing gloves were more of a "devs want you to climb here" thing, and the vine/rope arrows allow freedom of exploration. With some careful level design you can have both.

Caltrops would be fun as well. I never actually stood my ground to fight, so it'd be handy to have a way to slow down any pursuers.

**edit** remembered the oil flasks were already in the game.

Nate
12th May 2009, 22:40
As far as armor goes, I could see Garrett with no armor (100% speed and stealth), and leather armor (~70% speed and stealth).

Garrett + Plate Mail/Chain Mail/Shield = the Opposite of Thief!

huzi73
12th May 2009, 23:21
Zomfg no ways!Arsenal from T1-T2.Maybe replace the rope/vine arrow with a rope/hook.Thats it,no oil flasks,garrent aint producing a jackass movie!.This isnt bioshock,no inventions.Or burning oil puddles!In T1 he couldnt even use the "eye"(artifact) to his advantage.No magic staves,or scroll,no dagger,garret uses a short sword and later constantines sword,which cant be seen by enemies,even when unsheathed.No wall climbing gloves.T4=T1 + T2 + new engine +continuation of good story.No new crap!

Platinumoxicity
13th May 2009, 08:52
There's no need for armor in a Thief game. If you want more hit points, just switch the difficulty on normal. You can't kill anyone on expert anyway, so why would you want to fight? In Thief 1 you can easily take on 4 haunts on normal mode, but on expert it starts to get tricky.

StalinsGhost
13th May 2009, 15:09
ah, nooo, no bullettime like crap :( , it is ruining the fun and atmosphere.

I didn't mean bullet-time - for the guard/player within the field time moves normally - everything outside however moves much faster. To any one on the outside they move more slowly. It's not some kind of bullet (arrow?) time where you can take down enemies faster or anything like that. The actual result is simply that guard's patrols happen more slowly without the guards themselves actually knowing.

Also.

"I could have sworn it was past midnight... oh well...must have been rats playing with the clocks..."

esme
13th May 2009, 15:53
here's my 2 cents worth

the weapon set from T1/T2 was pretty d*mn good, perhaps the addition of an ice arrow as used in T2X would be good

how about mine arrows, shoot them into a wooden surface say a ceiling and they arm then go off when an AI is in proximity

I definitely want rope arrows and swimmable water back

how about a modified rope arrow that you can secure at your end and then shoot into a wooden surface creating a tightrope, say a specially twinned arrow shoot one in a convenient piece of wood your end and the other over the way, it would have to be distance limited between the two endpoints though

the scouting orb was useful too but I could live without it at a pinch

as for climbing gloves anything I can climb with gloves in real life I can climb without them so I never saw the point in having them in a game apart from making an artificial restriction on the player, so have climbable surfaces by all means but lose the spiderman gloves

it might be an idea for at least some of the AI to be able to climb ladders or mantle the same ledges that Garrett can

another thing I've thought might be interesting, Garrett is the worlds best thief yeah, so why when he pickpockets an archers quiver full of arrows can the archer still shoot him ? why can't you steal the guard's weapons and leave them defenceless, a bit like stealing a mages staff in deadly shadows, better yet if you steal a weapon you should be able to use it, perhaps not all the magical weapons but certainly the mundane ones

--- edit ---

oh and one thing that really brassed me off in T3, you hit the use weapon button and Garretts automatic weapon of choice was a dagger, he's a thief not a killer his weapon of choice should really be the blackjack, if Garretts in a position where he has no choice but to use the dagger then he's either screwed up or facing an undead, you should be able to preselect the weapon of choice without actually putting it in his hand while in game like "oh, no undead around I'll ready the BJ" or "hmm a crypt, I'll put Constanines sword on standby" so when you do hit the use weapon button you get the one you set up, so you at least have a choice and if it's wrong then it's your fault

StalinsGhost
13th May 2009, 19:41
Flash Mines (perhaps just an alternative mode to Flash Bombs?):

When a guard walks by, the flash mine blinds him once, then continues to for a set number of times (say, 2 more?)

DarthEnder
13th May 2009, 21:17
Flash Mines (perhaps just an alternative mode to Flash Bombs?)Thief 2 had Flash Mines.

Direlord
13th May 2009, 21:42
I would say keep the gear from T1-T3 except use the dagger and not the sword, lose the climbing gloves and just have rope/vine arrows and/or a grappling hook.

Keep the bow or allow the option of a small repeating x-bow.

I never played T2X but an ice arrow could work with freezing and providing a small slipper patch that goes away quickly.

I would also think maybe an electric type arrow to short out the powered lights or any robots. it would turn off the lights and maybe due a stun or malfunction to the robots. if they get rid of the shoot water in furnace then have them disable it.

Belboz
14th May 2009, 02:30
You're only likely to get rope arrows if the engine can handle rope arrows, thief 3's engine couldn't do rope arrows, thats why they put in those gloves, although the gloves were a bit lame as the missions and areas weren't really designed to fully use the gloves. I mean if you want to fully use what ever weapons they are likely to come up with, you've really have to design the missions so that there are 5 to 6 ways of getting through them, most games nowadays are linear, therefore there is only one way through, for a thief to be fully kitted out for a mission you have to decide how the thief is to get through the mission, is it A to B to C. eg you have a blackjack, dagger, rag soaked in cloriform, brick in a sock, so you either wack your way though or stab your way through or you silently put your foes to sleep. then its keys, lockpicks, glass cutter,

vowdy
14th May 2009, 13:21
The scouting orb was nice.
maybe make an arrow like it (with a small camera on it).


v

Corvin25
14th May 2009, 13:28
Sword: It doesn't have to be a huge freaking bastard sword like a guard would carry. But it would make a lot more sense for Garrett to carry a short sword, as opposed to a small dagger. A dagger is something an assassin uses. He's a thief, not a murderer. But he does need to defend himself if he's attacked. And a dagger is not suitable for standard armed combat.

Blackjack: Of course.

Broadhead Arrows: Sometimes it's the only way.

Water Arrows: Can't have a thief game without water arrows!

Fire Arrows: Yup.

Moss Arrows: These things were life savers in 1 and 2. But Thief 3 was so damn easy I never had to use them. :(

Gas Arrows: Expensive, but effective against large groups. I used these in the Maw on spiders. I'm arachnophobic. >_<;;

Flash Bombs: Totally. Keep these as a getaway plan.

Lockpicks: I liked the square/triangle system. TDS made lockpicking far too trivial.

Noisemaker arrows: A distraction is always effective. And this sort of thing makes sense.

Explosive Mine: Good for dealing with monsters and constructs.

Potions: I'd honestly stick to healing potions and speed potions. Invisibility, slow fall, etc... kinda... took away the "vulnerability" you had.


Here are some items i do NOT want to see ever again:

Climbing Gloves: There is no longer any need to worry about guards with these. They were essentially a "portable hole" you could climb into at almost any time to escape danger. Too easy.

Gas grenades: I guess they make more sense than gas arrows, but arrows are kind Garrett's thing.

Oil Flask: No matter how many times it happens, guards would slip on these things EVERY SINGLE TIME THEY PASSED OVER IT. Hax.

DarthEnder
14th May 2009, 19:18
I'd also like to see, purely for flavor, for us to have a kind of mechanical bracer with several devices mounted in it for informational purposes. It contains your compass, your light gem, a chonometer that serves and your mission timer, and an noise meter, with like a little needle hand on it that bounces around based on the noises you make and the ambient noise being made around you.

TheJoe
14th May 2009, 20:28
A dagger makes more sense, he's a Thief, he's sneaky. I never liked the sword in the original games, it was huge and clunky, didn't work for li'l Garrett.

So. Daggers.

GmanPro
14th May 2009, 21:49
I really want some sort of short blade. Like a Tanto, a Katzbalger, or a Xiphos

Thieffanman
15th May 2009, 03:12
Weapons and materials:

1) Climbing gloves-- Keep'em. I found the rope arrows' physics to be just too clumsy.
2) Different grades of lockpicks-- Maybe have Garret start out with a poor set that breaks and needs replacing, and he can upgrade to a well-crafted set that is expensive, but only needs to be bought once.
3) Arrows-- Keep the ones from Deadly Shadows (fire, water, gas, moss, noisemaker, broadhead, etc.). I like 'em.
4) Missile weapons-- Consider different ones like crossbows, pistol bows, and break-down longbows. This would also require different types of ammo.
5) Throwing knives-- I like this concept; I think it could work.
6) Different bladed weapons-- dagger, shortsword, scimitar; maybe even a katana. Also, maybe with different grades of weaponry from 'poor' to 'well-made', like the lockpicks mentiond above.
7) Keep the blackjack :).
8) Keep the mines, gas bombs, oil, holy water, flashbombs, etc.

--Thieffanman

DarthEnder
15th May 2009, 23:19
I'm just gonna summarize my other posts into this thread into one complete gear list.

Melee Weapons:
Blackjack
Short Sword
Dagger

Ranged Weapon:
Crossbow


Ammo:
Crossbow Bolt

Water Bolt - (Crossbow Bolt + Water Crystal) - Douses fires, cleans blood, leaves pools of water that remove scent trails etc.
Ice Bolt - (Crossbow Bolt + Water Crystal + Winter Resin) - Freezes Enemies, Turns puddles into ice patches, makes platforms in water etc.

Flame Bolt - (Crossbow Bolt + Fire Crystal) - Ignites flamable objects, burns bodies, replaces flares from previous games
Sunburst Bolt - (Crossbow Bolt + Fire Crystal + Summer Resin) - Explosive fire, replaces fire arrow of previous games

Moss Bolt - (Crossbow Bolt + Earth Crystal) - creates sound and scent absorbing patch of moss
Vine Bolt - (Crossbow Bolt + Earth Crystal + Spring Resin) - Creates a rope of vine that can be climbed when fired into a wooden surface, replaces Rope arrows

Wind Bolt - (Crossbow Bolt + Air Crystal) - Creates a blast of air that pushes over objects and briefly knocks guards off their feet
Lightning Bolt - (Crossbow Bolt + Air Crystal + Autumn Resin) - Creats a burst of electricity that knocks out guards and machines


Explosives:

Flash Bomb - (Flash Powder + Bomb Casing) - Blinds Enemies
Flash Mine - (Flash Powder + Mine Casing) - Same as above

Blast Bomb - (Blasting Charge + Bomb Casing) - Explosive blast that damages enemies and objects
Blast Mine - (Blasting Charge + Mine Casing) - Same as above

Noise Bomb - (Noisemaker + Bomb Casing) - Generates a distracting noise that attracts guards and drowns out other noises
Noise Mine - (Noisemaker + Mine Casing) - Same as above

Gas Bomb - (Knockout Gas + Bomb Casing) - Knocks out guards and other breathing enemies
Gas Mine - (Knockout Gas + Mine Casing) - Same as above


Alchemy Items:

Holy Water Flask - Ignites undead with blue fire, destroys zombies
Oil Flask - Douses enemies or the floor with oil, making them flammable, also knocks enemies off their feet if they run over it
Acid Flask - Creates pools that damage enemies, dissolves wooden objects like crates, barrels and weak doors, destroys zombies
Rust Flask - Dissolves metal objects, including machines, and guards weapons and armor

Healing Potion - Restores Health
Float Potion - Makes you fall slowly, allowing you to fall great distances and jump much higher than normal, also silences your footsteps.
Speed Potion - Makes you run much faster and jump much further, when combined with Float Potion allows for massive jumps.
Invisibility Potion - Makes you invisible


Devices:

Mechano-bracer:
Compass - It's a compass
Chronometer - Your Mission Timer
Light Gem - Measures your visibility
Sound Level Meter - Measures the noise you make and ambient sound in your area, looks like a gauge with a bouncing needle
Health Meter - Your life, looks like a glass tube filled with red liquid.

Mechano-focals(Mechanical Eye for Garrett):
Darkvision Lenses - Lets you see in the dark
Telescopic Lens - Lets you zoom in
Heatvision Lenses - Lets you see heat, including recent footsteps from living things
Viewing Lenses - Lets you see through a thrown Viewing Orb

Mechano-mask
Air Filter - Protects from smoke, knockout gas and poisonous fumes
Waterbreather - Allows you to breath underwater


That should just about do it.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
15th May 2009, 23:31
That should just about do it.

Are you sure? :eek:
Why do I think you've missed something out? :scratch:


*cough* rope/vine arrow *cough*
(or maybe I'm just not seeing it in that long list! Which is a fab one, by the way. :cool::thumb:

DarthEnder
16th May 2009, 00:25
Vine Bolt is in there.

GmanPro
16th May 2009, 00:34
Why do you want a crossbow instead of a bow?

DarthEnder
16th May 2009, 00:45
No reason really. It just seems cooler. Especially when you consider that thieves are supposed to be physically weak, so a draw-string bow is probably not the best weapon for them.

Nate
16th May 2009, 02:46
Garrett is anything but weak. He constantly runs/climbs with up to 120 lbs of equipment/weapons/loot on his back.

Crypto
16th May 2009, 03:22
Garrett is anything but weak. He constantly runs/climbs with up to 120 lbs of equipment/weapons/loot on his back.

I like how you just randomly picked out an obscenely exaggerated number to support your argument.

kin
16th May 2009, 05:35
Garrett can carry an infinite amount of loot.:lol:

GmanPro
16th May 2009, 05:43
Meh. I could haul 120 lbs

Maybe not for miles...

DarthEnder
16th May 2009, 07:08
Everyone knows Garrett uses a Bag of Holding.

Nate
16th May 2009, 07:47
I like how you just randomly picked out an obscenely exaggerated number to support your argument.

Hi Crypto, I see you don't believe me. Be careful when challenging me like that, I am always happy to provide support for my arguments.

Here is a list of Garrett's standard equipment and the total weight per item type (times the number he carries).

-Bow: = 5 lbs

-Blackjack: = 2 lbs

-arrow + big crystal tips:1/2 lbs per arrow (before you say BS, do some research on hunting arrow shaft and tip weight). Since Garrett carries in Thief DS 100 arrows = 50 lbs

-dagger: = 1 lbs

-flash grenades: real life grenades of this type are 2 lbs each...Garrett carries 5 = 10 lbs

-gas grenade: I think Garrett can only carry 5 of these (give them the same weight as flashbangs) = 10 lbs

-holy water vials: Garrett carries 5 and they are likely smaller than the graphic in the game = 3 lbs

-mines: Garrett carries 5 of these mini antipersonel mines = 15 lbs

-healing potions: (5 total) = 3 lbs

-Climbing gloves: don't really know, but I would estimate about = 2 lbs

-tools: Garrett's tools are pretty much on lockpicks. He doesn't seem to use glass cutters, pry bars, drills, saws or anything else like that = 0 lbs

-Outfit: Garrett does wear an outfit with utility pockets and a cloak = 6 lbs

OKAY, so we are already at a total equipment/weapon weight of 105 lbs for Garrett's DRY WEIGHT (without loot).

Throw in a standard haul of gold (which is heavy in case you don't know), jewelry, paintings, odds and ends = Garrett running/climbing around with up to 120 lbs of weight on him seems like a pretty conservative figure. In fact, Garrett will likely sometimes be carrying MORE like 160 lbs on missions when he grabs a lot of gold and some heavy loot items. I was being generous with 120 lbs.

I know most people don't think about equipment weight in real world terms, I just happen to have a lot of experience with that sort of thing and am very aware of how weight packs on very quickly. I personally find carrying 10 lbs in tools and a pack with 60 lbs in it VERY PAINFUL for more than 200 meters (I can manage a few kilometers with short rests along the way)...and I am in very good shape and am stronger than average. Also, I can only manage a standard walk speed (with a semi-jog shuffle for short range).

Garrett would not be able to move very fast or far with that kind of weight (let alone the 'up to' 160 lbs he seems to carry daily). He wouldn't be able to climb at all. And he would be noisy and noticeable.....I don't know how he walks across town with all this stuff on his back!?!

This is why I would love to see the devs make Thief 4 with a weight/encumbrance system. Each item would have a weight/encumbrance value that penalizes Garrett's Stealth/Speed. Players who go into missions with a 'everything but the kitchen sink' mentality shouldn't even be close to being as stealthy as the guy who goes in with just his lockpicks and blackjack.

Platinumoxicity
16th May 2009, 08:23
This is why I would love to see the devs make Thief 4 with a weight/encumbrance system. Each item would have a weight/encumbrance value that penalizes Garrett's Stealth/Speed. Players who go into missions with a 'everything but the kitchen sink' mentality shouldn't even be close to being as stealthy as the guy who goes in with just his lockpicks and blackjack.

Does that mean that those who (like me) like to not use tools at all could carry all the loot they wanted but those who like to knock out guards and douse torches would have to run back and forth between stealing and stashing their loot in some part of the level? I don't think that would be too fair for new players who are inexperienced in ghosting.

TeoRocker
16th May 2009, 09:56
I'd like to be able to produce some kind of noise without having to use an arrow or noise making arrow. Most times I just jump on the ground to do that, but there are times when I want to do it whilst stepping on grass, or without making myself visible (jumping has that effect, sometimes). Maybe a "pssst" key or something equivalent could do the trick.

This wouldn't render the use of arrows useless, because they can still be used to create noise away from you.

Flashart
16th May 2009, 12:33
If "real world" physics were applied strictly, you'd end up taking a holdall of stuff and
stashing it then returning for supplies. Fine if people want it, but if there's loading zones or
"points of no return" it will soon get frustrating. Failing that, make sure there's enough gear
scattered throughout the level, again I can see problems.
I tend to Semi-ghost, so can get by with fairly minimal needs. Others may like to take advantage of every piece of equipment available, again I have no problem with that providing
a sensible compromise of inventory management is implemented.
The loot however is a tricky issue. To keep the levels and variety of loot interesting throughout the levels and keep "real world" belief means most loot is gonna be coin, note or jewelry maybe the odd picture and a couple of candle sticks.
In TMA you ended up carrying steel plates and gauges and all sorts, I was more concerned with doing it than questioning whether it was physically possible.

Prince_VLAD
16th May 2009, 13:23
Maybe sword should be let to gamer's choice.You want it, pick it up and carry it.
If you have the gloves which does the same good job as the vine arrow, why bother changing ? Just for ...tradition thing?
I would like to see a GOOD animation when you backstab someone with two daggers ! That would be nice.
I would like to see a short hammer with good animation when you hit them hard ...lol
Maybe it would be INTERESTING if you have the weapons GRADUALLY ;) It would make things more interesting...

Nate
16th May 2009, 17:30
Does that mean that those who (like me) like to not use tools at all could carry all the loot they wanted but those who like to knock out guards and douse torches would have to run back and forth between stealing and stashing their loot in some part of the level? I don't think that would be too fair for new players who are inexperienced in ghosting.

Hi Platinumoxicity. Actually, I don't need to see a 'realistic' Garrett so loaded down with equipment/loot that he can barely move (although it would be entertaining having Garrett with a repertoire of complaints for when he is overloaded).

I just want to see players who carry a lot of equipment/loot suffer a stealth/speed penalty...and it can be relatively minor, I just want there to be a penalty.

So, ghost players who take the bare minimum equipment into a mission and who only steal light loot = 100% stealth/speed.

Players who take extra equipment into a mission and who steal everything = 83% stealth/speed.

Players who take a full equipment load out into a mission and who steal everything = 65% stealth/speed.

Hmmmm since reducing running/walking/sneaking speed could really make missions last longer (irritating for non Ghost players), the devs could maybe only reduce CLIMBING SPEED instead.

Also, as you use up equipment during a mission, you would become lighter = stealth/speed stats increase. Or, you could drop items during your mission to lighten your load.

huzi73
16th May 2009, 20:09
Ffs this is not Oblivion!Adding encumberence would make this game suck!Hell,i wouldnt buy it if it had encumberence.Thief/Thief 2 had gas & fire arrows which werent affected by gravity.This wasnt done to muck up the game for purists looking for realistic physics,but rather with the intent of adding diversity as well as unique-ness to the game,if games had to go for a 100% realistic approach,then no game would be fun.Period

Petike the Taffer
16th May 2009, 20:51
I already wrote about this in another thread, but oh well...

I like most of the ideas for the newer gear.

Personally, I would like to see nearly every piece of gear from all previous three games...

...except potions ! The health potion can stay, but the others are totally silly and just ruin the realism and challenge of the gameplay. I honestly hate them. Droping other magical thingies (like Forgbeast Eggs) is more debatable, but I think you could certainly live without them...

Scouting orbs should make a comeback, as well as the mechanical eye (I prefer the more steampunkish and practical version shown in TDS). This depends on the presence of Garrett, though. If he wouldn't show up, adding some sort of "flexible steampunk periscope" for safe snooping behind corners would be nice. :)

The lockpicking system should remain similar to the one from TDS - the TDP and TMA version was good for it's time, but is very boring and overly simplistic these days.

Other things that should return :

The blackjack, both the sword and the dagger, the bow (with it's typical window-shaped metal crosshair and a zoom capability), broadhead arrows, noisemaker arrows, all four elemental arrows, climbing arrows (rope and vine) as well as (improved and visible !) climbing gloves...

Keep both the flash and the gas variety of hand-thrown bombs and mines, as well as explosive mines. Bring back the holy water vials from TDP and their ability to consecrate water arrows, in addition to the holy water flask (for killing undead, of course).


And now, my ideas about new additions :

The flask-weapons idea deserves some expanding upon. Besides the oil and holy water flask, I would fancy the idea of a "glue flask" - smash it underneath your opponents legs and watch them get caught in the sticky muck ! :)

You should have the choice to choose between a "light" and "heavy" weapon for both the melee and archery slot in your arnament inventory (before going on a mission or a walk through the City streets).

In addition to the bow, there should be a shorter crossbow - but not a "pistol crossbow", please ! It should feature a crosshair similar to that of the bow. Crossbows are already featured in many Thief II fan missions, along with other nice weapon mods.

Melee weapons slot :

Dagger - light, more stealthy, weaker in hand-to-hand combat
Sword - heavy, better for swordfighting (including blocking slashes), but much more heavier than the dagger, giving Garrett a slight speed disadvantage (even when not drawn, just to keep it consistently realistic)

Archery weapons slot :

Bow - light, can shoot further, arrows arc after being shot
Crossbow - heavy, shorter range, but more accurate and powerful, has a simple rewinding mechanism

Another interesting addition could be a sort of "tactical door wedge" (like in SWAT 4), or a variation of it - a "tactical door lock". You can only carry a few (say, a maximum of three) and they are supposed to be used when you desperately try to gain some time to avoid getting ambushed or caught. Once deployed, nobody should be able to open or unlock the door for a longer amount of time, except you. The wedge or lock should be able to hold off the attackers for at least 4-5 minutes, enough time to escape or figure out something until they ram the door and break in violently.

As for the number of equipment you can carry - there should be a fixed limit, like in TDS. It would sure add to the realism (Garrett is a normal human, not a one-man army or packhorse)
and the challenge. As far as visuals go, Garrett (while in third person view) should have the main weapons and the most crucial equipment also displayed on the outside, so it would look more naturally.

huzi73
16th May 2009, 21:44
Personally, I would like to see nearly every piece of gear from all previous three games...

...except potions ! The health potion can stay, but the others are totally silly and just ruin the realism and challenge of the gameplay. I honestly hate them. Droping other magical thingies (like Forgbeast Eggs) is more debatable, but I think you could certainly live without them...

Scouting orbs should make a comeback, as well as the mechanical eye (I prefer the more steampunkish and practical version shown in TDS). This depends on the presence of Garrett, though. If he wouldn't show up, adding some sort of "flexible steampunk periscope" for safe snooping behind corners would be nice. :)

The lockpicking system should remain similar to the one from TDS - the TDP and TMA version was good for it's time, but is very boring and overly simplistic these days.

Other things that should return :

The blackjack, both the sword and the dagger, the bow (with it's typical window-shaped metal crosshair and a zoom capability), broadhead arrows, noisemaker arrows, all four elemental arrows, climbing arrows (rope and vine) as well as (improved and visible !) climbing gloves...

Keep both the flash and the gas variety of hand-thrown bombs and mines, as well as explosive mines. Bring back the holy water vials from TDP and their ability to consecrate water arrows, in addition to the holy water flask (for killing undead, of course).


And now, my ideas about new additions :

The flask-weapons idea deserves some expanding upon. Besides the oil and holy water flask, I would fancy the idea of a "glue flask" - smash it underneath your opponents legs and watch them get caught in the sticky muck ! :)

You should have the choice to choose between a "light" and "heavy" weapon for both the melee and archery slot in your arnament inventory (before going on a mission or a walk through the City streets).

In addition to the bow, there should be a shorter crossbow - but not a "pistol crossbow", please ! It should feature a crosshair similar to that of the bow. Crossbows are already featured in many Thief II fan missions, along with other nice weapon mods.

Melee weapons slot :

Dagger - light, more stealthy, weaker in hand-to-hand combat
Sword - heavy, better for swordfighting (including blocking slashes), but much more heavier than the dagger, giving Garrett a slight speed disadvantage (even when not drawn, just to keep it consistently realistic)

Archery weapons slot :

Bow - light, can shoot further, arrows arc after being shot
Crossbow - heavy, shorter range, but more accurate and powerful, has a simple rewinding mechanism

Another interesting addition could be a sort of "tactical door wedge" (like in SWAT 4), or a variation of it - a "tactical door lock". You can only carry a few (say, a maximum of three) and they are supposed to be used when you desperately try to gain some time to avoid getting ambushed or caught. Once deployed, nobody should be able to open or unlock the door for a longer amount of time, except you. The wedge or lock should be able to hold off the attackers for at least 4-5 minutes, enough time to escape or figure out something until they ram the door and break in violently.

As for the number of equipment you can carry - there should be a fixed limit, like in TDS. It would sure add to the realism (Garrett is a normal human, not a one-man army or packhorse)
and the challenge. As far as visuals go, Garrett (while in third person view) should have the main weapons and the most crucial equipment also displayed on the outside, so it would look more naturally.

like I said in a previous post,Thief is not a Jack@$$ movie!PLEASE!NO OIL FLASKS OR GLUE FLASKS!A crossbow,in the real world,is generally heavier an while not as long as a bow,much more bulky.In TDS,Garrets mech eye did NOT look cool!(IMO...)the normal bow should return,but get a make over (please,no steampunk looking bow..)I love my sword!Thief games have defied reality to a great extent,keep it that way,give Garret Constantines sword,pretend its as light as a dagger.Those who want a dagger,should buy 1/select it before missions.This is JUST my opinion.Thief needs to go back to its roots,which dont involve encumberence,auto healing,or oil flasks!

ZaSpecialist
16th May 2009, 23:09
Hmm..any ideas of new weapons? Or they are not necesary?:confused:

huzi73
16th May 2009, 23:19
Well.Im reluctant to point out a crossbow,maybe be even being able to disarm and use Hammers/Mechanist Gears against them?But please,no magic,or stealing mages/shaman staves and using it against them...Infact,i think Thief is perfect,no need for new stuff in this regard(unless someone has a bright idea?)

kaekaelyn
17th May 2009, 00:29
I like the oil flasks. I think they're hilarious. Sometimes I think people are just stuck in "Everything from TDS is bad" mode. I love TDP and TMA way beyond TDS, of course, but Thief 4 can go back to Thief's roots without abandoning everything TDS actually had right.

Neb
17th May 2009, 00:30
The games are already cluttered with weapons and equipment to cover almost any scenario you're likely to meet. There's really no need for anything else.

If there's anything which is going to enhance gameplay, it's not new weapons, but new AI behaviour.

supremeDMK
17th May 2009, 09:38
I don't think that a crossbow would be a good idea since you already have a bow, maybe some throwing knives would be a good idea.

Petike the Taffer
17th May 2009, 10:56
Thief needs to go back to its roots

While I don't entirely disagree with your post, just remaking TDP is not such a fortunate decision. I would still mind the breath and speed potions (not as bad as the godawful slow-fall and invisibility potions, but still silly and horribly cheaty). I would also mind the simplistic and boring lockpicking. And, as far as the mech-eye introduced in TMA goes, I never really used it - it's nearly worthless, since all you can do is zoom in and out with it. The TDS one is more cleverly designed - sure, you can object that "it makes Garrett's vision grainy, it suxxx !!!!". But I personally loved it. Garrett's world is an early industrial society, so it makes sence, that even high technology isn't fully perfected and feels somewhat archaic. It fits nicely with the whole steampunk theme of the City's tech. The TDS mech-eye is also not just a simple zoom, it also functions as an improvised night-vision device, allowing to check very dark rooms for threats, so you can avoid bumping into them.

And, actually, the oil flask is one of the few truely realistic weapons used by Garrett. :) Do you think, that instant-healing potions, holy water that blasts monsters to bits, magical arrows (or even rope arrows !) are more based in reality ? Besides, Thief was always about choices. And I want a lot of choices in Thief IV (on a reasonable level of course). If you don't want a certain type of gear, don't pick it up, or don't buy it. That worked in all three previous games - you weren't forced to frantically stockpile equipment if you didn't want to.

Yaphy
17th May 2009, 13:16
(Excuse my poor english)
I like the stuff thats already is in the previous Thief games. Just dont put in to much new gear/items. It will just make things confusing. And as mentioned before: For those who doesnt use so much (or any) gear/items make som VERY expensive stuff. But in that case I dont want things that makes the game easier (like sneak boots). Instead put in new clothes that Garret can buy at an extremely high price. If you dont want the original clothes, you can just buy a new hood. You may have about 3 different hoods, three different boots and three different pants, and so on. I dont want it to be like an RPG game, just a slightly different style that might make Garret look more Badass. Just so we, that doesnt use so much gear/items can have something to spend all $ on. :)

Crypto
17th May 2009, 14:03
Hi Crypto, I see you don't believe me. Be careful when challenging me like that, I am always happy to provide support for my arguments.
You're very sure of yourself.


-Bow: = 5 lbs
A medieval longbow weighed a pound and ten ounces. Garrett sure as hell doesn't have a longbow.


-Blackjack: = 2 lbs
I doubt it's that heavy, but it's probably closer to two than one.


-arrow + big crystal tips:1/2 lbs per arrow (before you say BS, do some research on hunting arrow shaft and tip weight). Since Garrett carries in Thief DS 100 arrows = 50 lbs
First of all, don't use TDS to judge the series. Use TDP or TMA. Secondly, I normally carry around twenty-five arrows (something like ten broadheads, three ropes, and twelve waters). So that's twelve and a half pounds.


-dagger: = 1 lbs
Some medieval daggers weigh a little less, but okay.


-flash grenades: real life grenades of this type are 2 lbs each...Garrett carries 5 = 10 lbs
All right.


-gas grenade: I think Garrett can only carry 5 of these (give them the same weight as flashbangs) = 10 lbs
I carry none. Zero pounds.


-holy water vials: Garrett carries 5 and they are likely smaller than the graphic in the game = 3 lbs
All right.


-mines: Garrett carries 5 of these mini antipersonel mines = 15 lbs
I never, ever carry mines. Zero.


-healing potions: (5 total) = 3 lbs
I usually start out with two. Maybe grab a third if it's available. Let's round off at a pound and a half.


-Climbing gloves: don't really know, but I would estimate about = 2 lbs
Since when do gloves weigh two pounds? Anyway, in the first two games of the series, which are widely accepted as the series' best representative, Garrett carries none. Zero pounds ...


-tools: Garrett's tools are pretty much on lockpicks. He doesn't seem to use glass cutters, pry bars, drills, saws or anything else like that = 0 lbs
Okay.


-Outfit: Garrett does wear an outfit with utility pockets and a cloak = 6 lbs
Pockets don't weigh anything ... I doubt a shirt, pants, and cloak weigh more than four pounds, although I could be wrong about the cloak.


Throw in a standard haul of gold (which is heavy in case you don't know), jewelry, paintings, odds and ends = Garrett running/climbing around with up to 120 lbs of weight on him seems like a pretty conservative figure. In fact, Garrett will likely sometimes be carrying MORE like 160 lbs on missions when he grabs a lot of gold and some heavy loot items. I was being generous with 120 lbs.
Why the hell are we measuring loot? That would make just about every secondary-world game extremely unrealistic. This argument is ludicrous.

With my play style (and bear in mind the differences between T1/T2 and T3), I round off at thirty-one pounds. Add fifteen for the loot if you really must and it's forty-six.

DarthEnder
17th May 2009, 15:15
How exactly does the fact that you don't carry certain items mean anything to the argument that Garrett must be strong because he carries so much stuff around?

So the Garrett YOU play is physically weaker than other people's Garret because you don't carry mines or gas bombs?

Crypto
17th May 2009, 15:49
How exactly does the fact that you don't carry certain items mean anything to the argument that Garrett must be strong because he carries so much stuff around?

So the Garrett YOU play is physically weaker than other people's Garret because you don't carry mines or gas bombs?

If you actually took ten seconds to read my post prior to our number crunching, you'd see I didn't actually take a position on the argument. I don't believe Garrett is anemic, but I don't believe he's superhuman because that's not the point of the game. My point is that he sure as **** doesn't haul around a hundred pounds of equipment. Nate's analysis is influenced by the fact that he bases it on TDS. Mine is influenced by the fact that I base it on TDP and TMA, which are considered by the fan base to be more accurately representative of the trilogy than TDS. In TDS it's incredibly easy to amass a huge amount of items over the course of the missions—not so much the case in TDP and TMA.

Loot: I think it's ridiculous to measure loot because, as I mentioned before, it renders countless otherwise realistic-enough games unrealistic. It doesn't make sense for Nate to include it in his point. What are the developers going to do, eliminate the thieving part of Thief?

Before you fling yourself headlong into the argument, read up on what you're arguing against.

Platinumoxicity
17th May 2009, 16:15
I think the encumberance system should be scrapped without exception just because it doesn't make the game any more fun. :) If you take a neutral factor in a game and make it into something that is not fun, you make the game worse.

ToMegaTherion
17th May 2009, 16:36
The only reason to have encumbrance in a game is to stop the player carrying around so much stuff it makes things too easy, or so much stuff that they get confused about what they have. THe latter doesn't happen, and the former can surely be dealt with in better ways in a Thief game.

Yaphy
17th May 2009, 17:28
Dont punish players for taking loot. I dont think weight system is the best idea. What about if you can take as much loot as you want. But when you play at hard you can carry less Equipment then when youre playing on normal. Is it a better idea or is it just to scrap it? Just an idea...:rolleyes:

BlooferLady
17th May 2009, 17:34
Haven't had time to read the whole thread, but here's my opinion. I think that there's nothing really in the arsenal that needs to be taken out. I never took issue with the climbing gloves, but I did like the suggestion of climbable surfaces to replace them. I think the devs should focus on perfecting what's already established, rather than trying to add more gadgets/gizmos/magical sundry to make the game flashy and cool.

A lot of the ideas we're seeing here, while good and inventive and all that, serve the same function as already established weaponry. Why would you need drugs and potions to put guards to sleep? Gas arrow the suckers already! Some of the items that people have suggested sound really cool, (the stones that make patches of darkness) but possibly should only be included as a fun toy to use on specific missions. You're average fence is not going to carry mystical diamonds of darkness, but I could very easily see such a thing existing in the sunken citadel or lost city. And once you're done with that mission, that's all you get! Kind of like the plums/fruit you find in TDP in the Escape mission. That's the only food that heals you.

I liked the idea for gas/flash/normal mines that you can somehow attach to a wall/ceiling. That'll teach those zombies to avoid that section of the floor! But that's an add-on to existing stuff. See what I mean?

So: Keep what you've got, including stuff from the original 2 games (rope arrows, scouting orbs). Be very sparing on what you put in!

Nate
17th May 2009, 23:38
I would be fine with weight/encumbrance values only on equipment/weapons/armor....leaving you free to carry as much loot as you want without stealth/speed penalties.

Nate
17th May 2009, 23:52
Hi Crypto, a couple of points for you.

1) It seems we are 'close enough' on agreement for how much Garrett's equipment/weapons/clothing weights. A few pounds here or there don't make too much diff.

2) Also, you are under the impression that I want a Thief game where Garrett is so loaded down with stuff, he can barely move......This Isn't The Case.

I would simply like some sort of weight/encumbrance system that gives STEALTH/CLIMBING SPEED penalties for players who take TONS of equipment/weapons/armor with them into missions.....notice I am giving up on a basic 'SPEED' penalty as players would get pissed if Garrett walked/ran slower and took longer to finish missions.

This would make 2 different play styles. One for Ghost/minimalist players, and one for Equipment/pack-mule players. Both strategies would work, but would require different tactics to succeed = more re playability.

3) Also, to avoid Ghost players ending up with tons of $ that they have no use for, I would like to see uber expensive items/weapons/armor/equipment/magic items in the game....but these special items should only give tiny bonuses over standard stuff so the game isn't unbalanced.

Espion
18th May 2009, 08:50
Has anyone mentioned some kind of dousing rags for putting out torches if you're stood right next to them instead of wasting a water arrow?

It would probably unbalance the game though as you'd end up with so many water arrows.

That said, if you gave water arrows more uses, for example some people might still use the Builder's Children, you could use them to short out electrical machines, soak a guard to distract him/make him move from a position just long enough for you to slip by... It just kinda makes sense that you wouldn't waste an expensive arrow if you're stood next to a torch :scratch:

Crypto
18th May 2009, 15:38
Hi Crypto, a couple of points for you.

1) It seems we are 'close enough' on agreement for how much Garrett's equipment/weapons/clothing weights. A few pounds here or there don't make too much diff.
They do when they add up to a difference of over seventy pounds.


I would simply like some sort of weight/encumbrance system that gives STEALTH/CLIMBING SPEED penalties for players who take TONS of equipment/weapons/armor with them into missions.....notice I am giving up on a basic 'SPEED' penalty as players would get pissed if Garrett walked/ran slower and took longer to finish missions.
I think they should just ration your equipment based on difficulty level. For example, on Easy you can carry fifty arrows total, but on Expert you can only carry twenty-five.


This would make 2 different play styles. One for Ghost/minimalist players, and one for Equipment/pack-mule players. Both strategies would work, but would require different tactics to succeed = more re playability.
So you mean players who play like thieves versus players who treat the game like Quake.

3) Also, to avoid Ghost players ending up with tons of $ that they have no use for, I would like to see uber expensive items/weapons/armor/equipment/magic items in the game....but these special items should only give tiny bonuses over standard stuff so the game isn't unbalanced.[/QUOTE]
This could work, but I don't see how it could be pulled off without dramatically butchering stealth gameplay.

Platinumoxicity
18th May 2009, 16:36
3) Also, to avoid Ghost players ending up with tons of $ that they have no use for, I would like to see uber expensive items/weapons/armor/equipment/magic items in the game....but these special items should only give tiny bonuses over standard stuff so the game isn't unbalanced.

Or maybe use the old system where money doesn't carry over missions? It worked before until T3 changed that and money started flowing in endlessly. :)

DarthEnder
18th May 2009, 16:44
I think they should just ration your equipment based on difficulty level. For example, on Easy you can carry fifty arrows total, but on Expert you can only carry twenty-five.I agree sort of, except I don't think having a hard cap is nessecary.

Simply lowering the amount of equipment you start with, and then lowering the amount of equipment available in the store based on what difficulty you're playing, For example on Normal you'd get 20 Arrows, and there would be 30 arrows for sale in the shop. But on Expert you only get 10 Arrows, and 15 arrows in the shop. And of course, starting equipment and store stocks are different for each level.

Since I don't think there should be a city hub, there's no need for a hard cap on equipment since you can never have more than Starting Equipment+Store Stocks+What you pickup mid-level.

TazmanianD
18th May 2009, 16:58
I think they should just ration your equipment based on difficulty level. For example, on Easy you can carry fifty arrows total, but on Expert you can only carry twenty-five.
I don't like the idea of putting a limit on what Garrett can carry (that irritated me in TDS when I had money, but couldn't buy what I wanted). I think a better idea what be to alter the amount of items available for purchase or their prices based on difficulty.

Although I'm not so sure about that either. Increased difficulty levels mean that you earn more gold as a result of higher objectives. Shouldn't there be some reward for doing that above and beyond satisfying the objectives for its own sake (otherwise you could play on an easier difficulty, but play as if on a higher one)?

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
18th May 2009, 17:33
I like having to plan for a mission. Deciding what you may need for the mission is part of the fun. I'd like to have a general 'encumbrance' bar. Each item has an encumbrance value. You can take as much of whatever you want so long as the accumulated encumbrance is no higher than the limit. On easier difficulties you have a higher limit. On harder difficulties you have a lower limit.

super basic example: "5 mines or 15 arrows? or 9 arrows and 2 mines? or maybe a bottle of holy water 8, arrows, and a couple flash bombs?oh woe is me I can't decide!"

Very simple and I like it much better than an individual limit on each item. Only issue then is how the game will handle pricing and availability.

WVI
18th May 2009, 17:39
Remove climbing gloves as this ruined the game for me (so easy to escape guards)

See, this is not forward thinking. Instead, keep the climbing gloves and make it so the guards aren't morons whenever they're involved.

Crypto
18th May 2009, 19:22
I don't like the idea of putting a limit on what Garrett can carry (that irritated me in TDS when I had money, but couldn't buy what I wanted).

In TDS I never used up all my items in a single level, and trust me, I did plenty of screwing around. Setting a low limit would encourage players challenging themselves on Expert to be conservative with arrows, flash bombs, etc.

Nate
18th May 2009, 20:20
Well done Crypto. I have to say I Iike your idea about introducing a 'Carry Capacity' Game Difficulty option that effects how much equipment you can carry....as long as Garrett has complete choice over what to carry.

So to better represent a more 'realistic' and thief like gear load out, we could have the Highest 'Carry Capacity' Difficulty reduce Garrett's carry capacity to SOMETHING like the following:

-Garrett can carry a bow, 1 holy vial, 1 healing potion, 1 gas grenade, 2 flashbangs, and lockpicks
-Depending on how the player wants to approach the mission, Garrett must choose between a blackjack OR a dagger...but not both. Also, Garrett can't choose a longer/heavier short sword.
-Garrett can carry a max of 12 arrows (maybe stored in a side quiver attached to the bow). He would have complete freedom to choose WHICH 12 arrows he wants to carry (ie, 12 water arrows, or 12 broadhead arrows, or 3/3/3/3 water/fire/moss/noise arrows, or whatever combination the players wants to carry)....I am a bit worried about players simply choosing 12 gas arrows = uber arrows. Maybe they can make the gas arrows (and gas mines) uber expensive?

Just PLZ no individual item limit. I would hate to see a system that you can carry 12 arrows maximum, but only 2 of them can be gas arrows.....why can't I have 12 gas arrows if I want (as long as I can find or buy them)?

All that said, I still prefer the idea of each item/weapon/armor piece having an encumbrance value that can effect stealth/speed stats. It would appeal to multiple play style preferences and add replayability to the game.

But if the devs can't do a weight/encumbrance system, I could still be happy with Crypto's idea for a 'Carry Capacity' difficulty setting that controls how much equipment/weapons Garrett can carry.

Oh, one last thing for Crypto. Just pointing out that the amount Garrett carries (while controlled by YOU) is about 35 lbs. Please keep in mind that you carry only a SMALL fraction of what Garrett was allowed to carry in Deadly Shadows. I applaud you for playing Garrett in a more realistic and challenging way.

Crypto
18th May 2009, 22:33
Oh, one last thing for Crypto. Just pointing out that the amount Garrett carries (while controlled by YOU) is about 35 lbs. Please keep in mind that you carry only a SMALL fraction of what Garrett was allowed to carry in Deadly Shadows. I applaud you for playing Garrett in a more realistic and challenging way.
My point is that TDS allowed for an unnecessary amount of equipment.

If we get the blackjack (and we should, because it's a Thief icon), we have no need for a dagger. They share the same purpose, only the dagger is less honorable because it ... um, murders. So we might as well roll with the (short) sword.

But after all my raging, I wouldn't really mind if there was no item limit. In fact, I'm more worried about going overboard on encumbrance.

Nate, upon rethinking your ideal encumbrance system, I think it actually is a pretty good idea. I can imagine ditching the bow and running around quick as hell with nothing but a blackjack and/or short sword ... That would be pretty awesome.

Of course, I'm probably the only madman on this forum who would ever forgo the bow in the first place.

Nate
18th May 2009, 23:34
Nate, upon rethinking your ideal encumbrance system, I think it actually is a pretty good idea. I can imagine ditching the bow and running around quick as hell with nothing but a blackjack and/or short sword ... That would be pretty awesome.

Of course, I'm probably the only madman on this forum who would ever forgo the bow in the first place.

Lol. No man, you aren't the only madman who would think that would be cool.

I would also love to be able to go into a mission with just a blackjack at 100% stealth potential VERSUS loaded up with bows/arrows/flashbangs/short sword/holy water vials BUT at only 70-80% stealth potential.

However, I see your point that it would be easy for the devs to go too far with this encumbrance system.

Platinumoxicity
18th May 2009, 23:44
Stealth percentage system is idiotic because every time you have a different set of equipment with you, you haven't gotten used to your own visibility and it doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel professional, because your stealth isn't anymore dependant only of your tactics and skills, but numbers instead. It creates realism in the expence of immersion, and that's not good.

TazmanianD
18th May 2009, 23:57
In TDS I never used up all my items in a single level, and trust me, I did plenty of screwing around.
I think I used up my flash bombs and holy water in the haunted ship and the cradle. At least I remember wishing that I could have taken more with me. Aside from fighting the undead, I'm with you in that I always have equipment left over but felt like I didn't have enough fighting the undead.

Nate
19th May 2009, 00:14
Stealth percentage system is idiotic because every time you have a different set of equipment with you, you haven't gotten used to your own visibility and it doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel professional, because your stealth isn't anymore dependant only of your tactics and skills, but numbers instead. It creates realism in the expence of immersion, and that's not good.

Hi Bud! Just checking here, but would you prefer a Carry Capacity Difficulty Setting (easy/medium/hard/expert) in regards to how much equipment Garrett can carry around INSTEAD of an encumbrance system? This would mean that you can change game difficulty settings to control how much stuff Garrett can ran around with (which would have no effect on Stealth/Speed stats).

Let us know. Thanks Platinumoxicity!

WVI
19th May 2009, 00:27
Hmm...Has anyone considered a shield or something? Not a big bulky piece of metal per se, but something that might absorb one magic blast out of desperation, then break.

Nate
19th May 2009, 01:09
Do you mean Bracers? Actually, I'm surprised that Garrett doesn't already use a Bracer on his arm that holds his bow.

Crypto
19th May 2009, 01:16
I would also love to be able to go into a mission with just a blackjack at 100% stealth potential VERSUS loaded up with bows/arrows/flashbangs/short sword/holy water vials BUT at only 70-80% stealth potential.
:scratch: Too many numbers. JK, it's good to know we agree on something.


I think I used up my flash bombs and holy water in the haunted ship and the cradle. At least I remember wishing that I could have taken more with me. Aside from fighting the undead, I'm with you in that I always have equipment left over but felt like I didn't have enough fighting the undead.
Well, a lot of players have been saying they don't want undead in T4. Things are shaping up nicely on this front. :p (To be honest, I'd like to see one undead level.)

Nate
19th May 2009, 02:00
Yeah, I would be happy with 1 (or 2 at most) undead levels.......although I would imagine that the city catacombs would have some happy haunts and zombies friends for Garrett to meet.

DarthEnder
19th May 2009, 04:03
I burn through my water arrow supply fairly consistently, in the first two games. And I buy every one for sale.

Flash bombs are another item I commonly use up.

Sapare
19th May 2009, 05:23
I'm for the thief 1 and 2 idea. You can carry as much as you want but there are only a set amount of each equipment in the store each mission. And that you don't carry your equipment from one level to the next.(some times you did, when it made sens like from "cargo" to "kidnap". Same with the money, that you only take the money that you found in the last mission to buy new equipment. I found that it made playing on expert allot more fun as in a way you where rewarded for finding huge amounts of loot. That is just what I personally thing and I don't really want to start an argument.

Nate
19th May 2009, 05:40
Hi Sapare, I can respect your position.

Personally, I disliked the idea that you throw away all your equipment at the end of a mission......
..............................................................then again, maybe magic arrows have a short lifespan before they deteriorate and become useless. That would be a great explanation for why Garrett couldn't take arrows from one mission to the next in the first 2 games.

Lol, maybe the devs should put a 'time limit' on the lifespan of magic arrows and other magic items like gas grenades and healing potions. This would go a long way in preventing players from Hoarding their $ and equipment like they did in Thief DS.

Now, maybe magic equipment could have a lifespan of only 1 mission. The following night (using the same Thief DS night cycles) would see Garrett with only his 'mundane' equipment remaining (blackjack, dagger, short sword, bow, lock picks). Of course, still allow the $ to carry over....there is no logic behind Garrett flushing his $ down the toilet.

Hmmm, I kind of like the idea of magic items only having a limited 'charge' instead of lasting for the entire game. This REALLY helps solve the Thief DS problem of what to do with all your $ because you are full up on equipment already. Even Ghosters would need to spend $ to replenish their stock, regardless if they didn't use it during their last mission.

Ok, thinking about this some more, I'm pretty sure this is a GREAT IDEA!!!!

DarthEnder
19th May 2009, 06:26
Having new equipment every level is a mechanism designed to alleviate the problem that T3 ironically reintroduced, which is that each mission is balanced very specifically against the gear the level designer wants to make available to you.

It's as has been said, later levels of T3 are trivialized by the fact that most players have maxed out every piece of equipment they can get by the later levels in the game.

Conversely, each level in T1 and T2 allows the designers to know exactly what items you have available, and how many you could have, and the level can be tuned accordingly.

Neb
19th May 2009, 07:03
Personally, I disliked the idea that you throw away all your equipment at the end of a mission.

None of the games take place over a single night and it's possible that Garrett ends up using some of his equipment in between missions, but it's not worth explaining to the player.

Nate
19th May 2009, 07:18
Well, the devs could do it Thief DS style. The player can run around and do city exploration/theft as much as they want, but as soon as they complete an actual storyline mission = next night.

As for missions that follow each other immediately during the same night....I am sure the devs can figure out how to have the same equipment remain in your inventory. However, they might not even have missions like this ( Thief DP and Thief DS didn't...as far as I remember).

This idea of 'limited magic charge' on magical items would really make money mean something again in Thief 4....and they need to get rid of all those magical arrows hanging for walls in the city.

Add to the game concept of 'limited magic charge' the idea of somewhat more powerful versions of magic items that cost MUCH more $ to purchase = even the most frugal Ghost players will have a use for their $ during the course of the game.

Platinumoxicity
19th May 2009, 08:01
Hi Bud! Just checking here, but would you prefer a Carry Capacity Difficulty Setting (easy/medium/hard/expert) in regards to how much equipment Garrett can carry around INSTEAD of an encumbrance system? This would mean that you can change game difficulty settings to control how much stuff Garrett can ran around with (which would have no effect on Stealth/Speed stats).

Let us know. Thanks Platinumoxicity!

That would be a much better system, yes. :)

Caranfin
19th May 2009, 08:59
Having new equipment every level is a mechanism designed to alleviate the problem that T3 ironically reintroduced, which is that each mission is balanced very specifically against the gear the level designer wants to make available to you.

It's as has been said, later levels of T3 are trivialized by the fact that most players have maxed out every piece of equipment they can get by the later levels in the game.

Conversely, each level in T1 and T2 allows the designers to know exactly what items you have available, and how many you could have, and the level can be tuned accordingly.
This is exactly why I feel an encumberance system is unnecessary. EM should rather just go back to the T1 and 2 style of managing equipment and forget the city hub.

Or... If they keep the hub, how about having all of your magical items lose power after each mission, and then have a different amount of equipment available in the city before each mission? That way the designers could balance missions against the available gear.

ToMegaTherion
19th May 2009, 09:05
Regarding the equipment system of Dark Project and Metal Age and arguments against it based on realism. Surely this system is an Acceptable Break From Reality? It solves thorny design issues: your items are balanced to the mission at hand, hoarding is useless, and the player can feel free to use his toys when the situation requires their use.

The downsides are that the player isn't rewarded for getting through without using much (e.g. using few disposables and getting relatively little loot is worse than using many to get much loot, this might be considered bad), and that, if you find during a mission a really rare but very useful piece of equipment, you have to use it in that mission or it disappears, even if you might not want to waste it (suppose there is a gas arrow hidden in Bafford's Manor, you'd want to store it up for later).

Appeals to realism, unless something is just clearly unbelievable, should be left until the gameplay issues are discussed and resolved. The first task is to decide what you want your game system to do in terms of gameplay mechanics, and then find a plausible way to implement it.

Ishikawa
19th May 2009, 09:22
Rope Arrows should be back, yes no question asked, they are like a thief's standard tool in my opinion (there price should reflect that), as they only work on wood (or soft surfaces), we also "need" vine arrows, although those should be very VERY rare.

The coin mentioned earlier in this thread, yes i like it, although for balance purposes i'd say make it so, that you have an assortment of different coins in your bag, let's say you have some money left over from before the mission, every coin (bronze, silver, gold if you lack imagination) has a fixed weight and value, throwing the coin reduces your money, more valueable coins cost you more, make more noise and are more likely to distract a NPC, the captain of the guard or some nobleman probably wouldn't get that distracted by a nearly voiceless coin after all, not to mention that silver and gold coins would also reflect more light and therefore serve quite logically as better distractions.

What i would like to have is the eye camera back, what i would like there is a split view, after all Garrett only sees through it with his artificial eye. For balance i could imagine that it could be implemented in such a way that movement while having split view, is disorienting, i mean a really really bad idea with you loosing focus on both eyes things starting to spin etc. Those camera's should be expensive as well, and of course important to collect again, as well as noticeable by the NPC's (e.g. "What is this witchcraft!")

What was also mentioned was some kind of penalty for using too much or some bonus for using less equipment. I could imagine you bundling that with the loot and pay you get from a mission. Garrett is foremost a thief making a living (a very reluctant hero comes only much later) so Garrett would probably be really bad off paying more for a mission than getting out of it, maybe even make it so, that high level equipment is only available when you have the necessary money saved up... which pretty much only means balancing the valueables more. I think skillfully implemented that would be far more realistic and logical than some additional artificial restrictions or bonusses.

Platinumoxicity
19th May 2009, 09:32
The coin mentioned earlier in this thread, yes i like it, although for balance purposes i'd say make it so, that you have an assortment of different coins in your bag, let's say you have some money left over from before the mission, every coin (bronze, silver, gold if you lack imagination) has a fixed weight and value, throwing the coin reduces your money, more valueable coins cost you more, make more noise and are more likely to distract a NPC, the captain of the guard or some nobleman probably wouldn't get that distracted by a nearly voiceless coin after all, not to mention that silver and gold coins would also reflect more light and therefore serve quite logically as better distractions.


Instead of coins, there could be a bag of marbles that could be bought before a mission you could throw marbles around during the job. :)

Nate
19th May 2009, 09:50
Call me cheap, but I would still use pebbles to do the trick...no, not Fred Flintstone's daughter.

Neb
19th May 2009, 12:07
To keep things simple, wouldn't it be more practical to just use random junk lying around the level?

Ishikawa
19th May 2009, 12:23
To keep things simple, wouldn't it be more practical to just use random junk lying around the level?

Well that could work, but imagine some kind of aristocrat npc, personally i would find it funny if you do something like that and the guy just looks in the direction and calls for a servant to clean up the mess.

Now to a point i forgot in the last post: The Sword!
Garrett never was a great swordsman but i would like it back, the explanations and reasonings for it are about the same as i have read before in this thread.
It is a far better defensive weapon than a small dagger, in part one Garrett got himself a very good sword in a mission which also was a part of the story i can't see him abandoning that, especially considering how often it probably saved his butt, not to mention it is good for intimidating crooks and stubborn fences.

The dagger somewhat reminds me of Assassin's Creed, or Assassin's in general, it always was something you only take out when needed (let him move slower with it out), with a dagger in contrast it is far more tempting to simply have it out at all times to be able to strike down someone who notices you.

On that note, i love Assassin's Creed but i would still go as far as to say that not a single idea from the game can be used in Thief. The acrobatic movements for example, some would think they are quite compatible with a thief, but i can just imagine Garrett seeing someone moving like that, shaking his head and saying "Mmph, i rather get caught than jump around like a second rate circus artist."

Neb
19th May 2009, 12:36
I never use the sword, so I guess I'm not in a great position to protest, but the dagger felt cheap, simply because I worked my arse off in The Dark Project in the mission "The Sword" to earn the damn thing in the first place.

Call me sentimental ;)

Sapare
19th May 2009, 23:38
I never use the sword, so I guess I'm not in a great position to protest, but the dagger felt cheap, simply because I worked my arse off in The Dark Project in the mission "The Sword" to earn the damn thing in the first place.

Call me sentimental ;)

Sorry if I'm wrong, but you don't even use Constantin's sword in thief 2. At least that how it seems, the sword looks like every other sword, AND in the mission"Ambush" if I'm not wrong you can see Constantin's sword over the fire place in your house. It looks like every other but it has a diamond like thin in the hilt.(I don't know how Constantin's sword looked) And you don't take it with you in the mission, so that means you don't have it any more.

Nate
19th May 2009, 23:40
It was still Constantin's sword in the Metal Age.

The difference between it and a regular sword, is that a regular sword makes Garrett a lot less stealthy when he draws it. Constantin's sword doesn't effect Garrett's Stealth Status.

I don't recall Constantin's sword having another other advantage over a regular sword.

randomtaffer
20th May 2009, 00:18
The difference between it and a regular sword, is that a regular sword makes Garrett a lot less stealthy when he draws it. Constantin's sword doesn't effect Garrett's Stealth Status.

I don't recall Constantin's sword having another other advantage over a regular sword.

Correct.

Slugo
20th May 2009, 00:24
Someone said earlier that magic items should only last 24 hours (or lose their charge after a main mission is done). I like that idea a lot. It would prevent massive cash buildups and would be true to the first 2 games.

I also liked his idea of a weight system that penalizes players who bring too much equipment with them on missions. I personally think it is FAR more thief like to bring the bare minimum on missions.

Sapare
20th May 2009, 02:55
It was still Constantin's sword in the Metal Age.

The difference between it and a regular sword, is that a regular sword makes Garrett a lot less stealthy when he draws it. Constantin's sword doesn't effect Garrett's Stealth Status.

I don't recall Constantin's sword having another other advantage over a regular sword.

Sorry to say but than its not. IN MA if you draw your sword you are less stealthy, I just tried it.(I'm just going through MA on expert for the first time and I must say its allot of fun, now I see why you guys like it more then THIEF 3(I sill say thief 3 is a good game but it lacks the
"No kill" rule)

TazmanianD
20th May 2009, 03:03
(I just say thief 3 is a good game but it lack the "No kill" rule)
If you do some searching, you can actually enable "No Kill" for any of the difficulty levels you choose (for the PC) since it was implemented in the engine, but not expose in the UI. I can't remember if the last time I played if there was a mod to do it for you but I do remember at one point following some instructions involving a hex editor and modifying the binaries directly. You won't get an objective on your mission briefing, but it will show up in the list during the mission and the mission will fail if you kill anyone.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
22nd May 2009, 17:03
I burn through my water arrow supply fairly consistently, in the first two games. And I buy every one for sale.

Flash bombs are another item I commonly use up.

I always had the habit of saving as many water arrows as possible, only putting out torches (for example) when it was absolutely necessary. This meant I had to study the guards' patrols carefully. It was part of the fun! :D

I hardly ever used a flash bomb, if at all, during missions.

Platinumoxicity
22nd May 2009, 20:01
It was still Constantin's sword in the Metal Age.

The difference between it and a regular sword, is that a regular sword makes Garrett a lot less stealthy when he draws it. Constantin's sword doesn't effect Garrett's Stealth Status.

I don't recall Constantin's sword having another other advantage over a regular sword.

It wasn't Constantine's sword in T2. It made Garrett more visible when drawn and Constantine's sword was black and it had a gold finish in the middle of the blade.

BlooferLady
22nd May 2009, 21:15
Someone mentioned a shield for blocking attacks...

Do you mean Bracers? Actually, I'm surprised that Garrett doesn't already use a Bracer on his arm that holds his bow.

He's got them in TDP (and possibly TMA). At least, he's got leather... things...on his wrists.

I can't really see him carrying around a buckler or something on the off chance that he runs into a mage. Personally for spell dodging I'd prefer a dodge left/right button. Strafing doesn't always get you out of the way in time. *checks her hotkey config* Yeah... not sure where that would go.

If the devs wanted to have you lose your arrows/supplies at the end of each mission, and still keep the city hubs in, you would have to go back to every single shop that has the supplies you need between every single mission and get your supplies again. I would go insane. Especially since I REALLY hate the shopkeepers in TDS. I sit there saying "SHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUP" whenever I buy from them, they irritate me that much. True story.

Perhaps not losing ALL of your materials. TDP and TMA started you off with some basics even without purchasing extras. You could go back to a set base number of supplies at the end of a mission. That way you are rewarded for finding a lot of loot, but you could keep going without having to listen to the female shopkeepers fawn all over our protagonist. I don't have any suggestions for the folks who think they are too rich by the end of the game...

Of course, the shopping thing could be improved by gagging those people. At least in my opinion. :)

DarthEnder
23rd May 2009, 08:17
I always had the habit of saving as many water arrows as possible, only putting out torches (for example) when it was absolutely necessary. This meant I had to study the guards' patrols carefully. It was part of the fun! :D

I hardly ever used a flash bomb, if at all, during missions.For me it was always, "okay, there's 4 guards in this hall and the adjoining rooms, if I put out just that one torch over there, I'll have a patch of darkness from which I'll be able to stage KOs on all those guards, and then stash their bodies in that same patch." And it becomes a game of, whats the fewest number of guard piles under burned out torches I can make in a level.


I use flash bombs all the time. Primarily when there's 2 guards at a doorway or some other situation where you can't really bj a guard from the shadows.

Flashart
23rd May 2009, 08:51
I agree, you start with your basic kit, any extra you pay extra, price varying accordingly.
If there's a particular piece of kit that's vital to finish the level it must be included/hidden in the level.
I like the idea of having a wide variety of equipment available. it encourages a range of playing styles and possibly replayability. The player can decide what's right for them, some gear could mimic the uses of others (ie blowpipe/ gas arrow) it's all a question of style.

Platinumoxicity
23rd May 2009, 11:57
I though of this: If there's a "Bonehoard 2.0" or some other cave-exploring mission, there could be "Rock-climbing arrows". Much like rope arrows, but you could shoot them into rock and they would be single-use, so you would really need to plan how you're going to use them.

Flashart
23rd May 2009, 16:32
Sort of "grappling hook"? I thought of this instead of climbing gloves, (ie a way of climbing up a flat "static" surface, and assuming rope arrows were unavailable/usable.Or used horizontally as a zip-wire).

I also thought of a slightly different version of a gas arrow. Something like a "Smoke Arrow" or "CS Arrow" able to confine a guard(s) to one space for say 10-15 secs. (Like a flashbomb, but at distance) You'd use it for say interrupting the regular pattern of a patrol, or confining a group in a guardhouse. Or you could use it to quickly sneak by, Garrett would be unaffected as his mechanical eye would guide him. I was thinking about it only alerting the guards slightly, as if they were just walking along and accidentally got something in their eye.

BlooferLady
23rd May 2009, 16:46
about rock-climbing arrows: If you're just looking for a rope arrow that would stick to a rock surface, didn't vine arrows do that? I think you could retrieve them, though. Can't remember.

kamuraki
23rd May 2009, 18:24
I see I'm not the only one who missed my rope/vine arrows in Thief 3.

Platinumoxicity
23rd May 2009, 21:17
about rock-climbing arrows: If you're just looking for a rope arrow that would stick to a rock surface, didn't vine arrows do that? I think you could retrieve them, though. Can't remember.

Vine arrows could be shot to wooden surfaces as well as metal grates and they were retrievable. They couldn't be shot to rock surfaces though.

The rock-climbing arrows would stick into rock and expand so that they stay where they are. They couldn't be retrieved so you couldn't use them in regular missions to climb anywhere. :)

Flashart
24th May 2009, 08:11
Or perhaps have you using a moss arrow then a vine arrow, that would stick to most surfaces. Make them unretrievable so it's nice and expensive to do.

DarthEnder
25th May 2009, 20:17
Or perhaps have you using a moss arrow then a vine arrow, that would stick to most surfaces. Make them unretrievable so it's nice and expensive to do.Neat!

esme
26th May 2009, 11:54
Or perhaps have you using a moss arrow then a vine arrow, that would stick to most surfaces. Make them unretrievable so it's nice and expensive to do.

so you shoot the rock with a mossie, which spreads over the rock surface, then shoot a vine arrow into the moss patch .... intriguing idea

hmm one thought, one trick I do sometimes, if I can't get a straight shot at a tiled surface with a moss arrow, say I'm on a stairway and the clear shot puts me in view for too long, I stay concealed and shoot a moss arrow at the ceiling, this then drops onto the tiled floor and spreads so I can run across with no noise and deal with the AI

your trick would pretty much kill that

how about 50% of the moss spreads where the arrow hitsand the rest drops vertically to the nearest surface under the hit point and that spreads as normal ?

Platinumoxicity
26th May 2009, 12:32
On the graphical side, now that we're talking about moss arrows, I don't want those "moss vine blobs" floating over the floor. We have steep parallax mapping today, so the moss could work this way:
1. The arrow hits the floor, a few spores fly out
2. It analyzes the surface's bump mapping structure and grows more moss in the cracks and lower places.
3. It grows to a reasonbale area like in T1 and the distant parts from the center are just that green texture in the cracks of the bump mapping, but do not effect your footsteps' noise level anymore.
4. Steep parallax mapping creates the illusion that the moss is 3d and sticks out of the ground.

-No 3d models used, just texture. It could look cool :)
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8961/moss.png

DarthEnder
26th May 2009, 21:52
Yeah, the blobs sucked because it was impossible to eyeball the edges of the moss patch.

LightWarriorK
27th May 2009, 00:28
Personally, I'd love to see upgradable lockpicks.

It's nice that there's a little minigame, like in TDS, based on the type of lock. I would just like to see locks that NO MATTER how good you are, you can't open with a cheap set.

Of course, that'd force a more open-ended game, since you'd have to be able to return to areas you've been to before and couldn't open. I think it'd be extremely cool, however, that maybe there's a lock in the first mission that you CAN'T open, and it takes an obsenely expensive set of wire-thin top-of-the-line lockpicks to get.

That'd also give the ghosters something to root for, eh? Maybe these upper-end sets are so expensive that you can't be buying all the arrows and tools you want and still afford them, so some rooms can only be opened by the best of the best, ghosters or otherwise?

I would really enjoy that.

I'd also think that it'd be interesting if there would be the highest level set that could BREAK. If you fail to open the most intricate and toughest of the locks, and the picks snap, you just wasted tons of money on picks that you'll have to buy again! Of course, that's pure evil, so maybe not.

Flashart
27th May 2009, 10:34
I'd rather have everything I need (if I didn't already carry it) available with the level itself.
"Super-Picks" or expensive upgrades would be available but only to speed up the process (perhaps reduce the number of "pickable" tumblers).
However, I would like to see a lot of secrets or additional content that you really had to search for.
A ghoster's "reward".
I like the idea of spying through keyholes etc.

hexhunter
27th May 2009, 11:35
so you shoot the rock with a mossie, which spreads over the rock surface, then shoot a vine arrow into the moss patch .... intriguing idea

hmm one thought, one trick I do sometimes, if I can't get a straight shot at a tiled surface with a moss arrow, say I'm on a stairway and the clear shot puts me in view for too long, I stay concealed and shoot a moss arrow at the ceiling, this then drops onto the tiled floor and spreads so I can run across with no noise and deal with the AI

your trick would pretty much kill that

how about 50% of the moss spreads where the arrow hitsand the rest drops vertically to the nearest surface under the hit point and that spreads as normal ?

I had a few similar ideas, namely fungus arrows and plaster arrows, both of which would be designed so you could fire a rope arrow into them. This brings up an issue however that the devs couldn't stop you from getting somewhere if you had enough arrows. myself I'd prefer to play a game which doesn't limit you in such a way so I don't mind the ideas.


Yeah, the blobs sucked because it was impossible to eyeball the edges of the moss patch.

Couldn't moss patches be slightly luminescent to Garrett's mechanical eye? That brings up other uses for the eye, like marking objects with invisible dyes and paints. Then Platinum's idea wouldn't be too difficult...

BlooferLady
27th May 2009, 20:47
I don't know... I have to suspend reality enough to just imagine a mechanical eye that works at all, much less one with the full capacity of a C.S.I. team. I guess if you had magical add-ons. That's something to perhaps use your extra coinage on.

Not that his eye isn't one of the coolest things... EVER. I just don't want it to become his cyborg-swiss army knife.

Nate
28th May 2009, 07:23
I am withdrawing my earlier suggestion for Garrett to be able to purchase better weapons/armor/equipment/tools. 'Super' equipment/weapons would effectively make Thi4f an RPG style game = hard for devs to balance missions and city hub. Not to mention, Super items would either turn Garrett into an unstoppable Juggernaut of carnage OR grant him near invisibility.

Nobody wants to play Thi4f: God of War or Thi4f: The Invisible Man

ALL THAT SAID, I still want Garrett to have choices for how to equip himself.

For example, while at his apartment, he can choose to leave his dagger/short sword behind = TINY (~4%) stealth and speed advantage.

I'd also like the highest difficulty setting to seriously limit how many arrows/items he can carry.

Platinumoxicity
28th May 2009, 09:15
Speaking of his mechanical eye, sure, it's nice that it's black and white, not too many color tv's at that time. But you could hear Garrett using that thing from a mile away in TDS. This loud, strange alien humming and a zooming "whirr" that sounded more like someone reeling an anchor up in a steamship. It should have been subtle, or better yet, manually operated. Garrett should turn the zooming lenses with his fingers, so there would be different zooming levels, like in many sniper scopes today.



For example, while at his apartment, he can choose to leave his dagger/short sword behind = TINY (~4%) stealth and speed advantage.


I don't think it's a good idea to make the seaking easier for those who want to generally make the gameplay more challenging. If someone wants to take a sword it only makes his gameplay easier if he decides to use it, but it shouldn't make it harder. Those who want genuine challenge won't use any tools. Those who want genuine FPS can take as many tools as they can afford. It's the second step in the difficulty choice. After you've decided in which boundaries the game let's you play it, you decide in which boundaries you let yourself play it.

DarthEnder
28th May 2009, 11:15
Speaking of his mechanical eye, sure, it's nice that it's black and white, not too many color tv's at that time. But you could hear Garrett using that thing from a mile away in TDS. This loud, strange alien humming and a zooming "whirr" that sounded more like someone reeling an anchor up in a steamship. It should have been subtle, or better yet, manually operated.I just want to point out that the mechanical eye might not make any more noise than a pocket watch, and it only sounds loud because its...you know...inside Garrett's HEAD.

Platinumoxicity
28th May 2009, 11:24
I just want to point out that the mechanical eye might not make any more noise than a pocket watch, and it only sounds loud because its...you know...inside Garrett's HEAD.

Oh. Well... I guess... Yeah. I haven't had my mech eye functional for a long time so I don't remember. Eye patch is much cooler. :)

Okay, the zoom sound is explained but the alien hum that plays when you activate zoom mode is just wrong. It should play all the time then and irritate everyone. ...Or does Garrett deactivate the eye each time he's done zooming?

Eye patch btw is not cooler. I just can''t afford another mech eye! Boo-hoo... :(

DarthEnder
28th May 2009, 11:54
I think he should just stick The Eye in his head and see what awesome powers it gives him.

Plus, I'd love to just listen to the two of them make sarcastic comments at each other for the whole game.

namron
30th May 2009, 10:37
i cant think of any new items that are needed all the old items were good

but get rid of the climbing gloves and bring back the rope arrow and i think he should have a sword cos he was trained to use one and is useful if u do get into a fight stick with normal bows and not crossbows
food wen i find my old thief games ill play them and see what is needed

Blade_hunter
3rd Jun 2009, 01:30
I wanted to make a thread about that but somebody show to me that one.

I just want to suggest two three items and see what persons thinks about it.


Weapons:
Caltrops
Throwing knives
Sword (return)

Arrows
Crack arrow (an arrow that leaves some gazes that can cover a very small area that can disorient guards during some seconds)
Rope and vine arrow (return)

I got an other Idea but I'm a bit affraid about the how much magical is it even if it doesn't do any damage ...

Hypevosa
3rd Jun 2009, 01:57
I wanted to make a thread about that but somebody show to me that one.

I just want to suggest two three items and see what persons thinks about it.


Weapons:
Caltrops
Throwing knives
Sword (return)

Arrows
Crack arrow (an arrow that leaves some gazes that can cover a very small area that can disorient guards during some seconds)
Rope and vine arrow (return)

I got an other Idea but I'm a bit affraid about the how much magical is it even if it doesn't do any damage ...

I like the idea of the caltrops... however the throwing knives seems a little out there. Why not use my bow? it would be just as if not more deadly...

The in keeping with the spirit of elements in thief, I suggest your crack arrow be a thunder arrow instead. Flash bombs blind people, so why not have an item that instead deafens them? It makes sense to me, and sounds like a fun idea.

Let's hear your other idea, I'm sure as long as it's not something like a fireball then people wouldn't object instantly.

MasterTaffer
3rd Jun 2009, 02:17
I'de like the non-lethal mines to return, myself. I recall setting an ambush for Cavador went really well for me in Thief 2 because I took the time to set up a proper ambush with these mines.

Platinumoxicity
3rd Jun 2009, 09:43
I'de like the non-lethal mines to return, myself. I recall setting an ambush for Cavador went really well for me in Thief 2 because I took the time to set up a proper ambush with these mines.

The mines could work in 2 ways. If you press "r" to drop it, it arms it like a mine. But... if you press "m2" to throw it, it arms with a timer so you can slide in under a door and the gas fills the room on the other side and knocks out anyone in there. Then you have to wait a moment before entering.

Flashart
3rd Jun 2009, 10:17
I thought maybe a blowpipe and darts, perhaps a "20 sec knockout" fainting dart and
a permanent "toxic" poison dart, for those that like death.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
3rd Jun 2009, 10:19
oooh yeah, caltrops, I like that idea. Those were great in the tenchu games. Slow down those chasing guards. Could be the next best thing when you have no flash bombs or speed potion.

esme
3rd Jun 2009, 10:25
I saw the previous comment about a crack arrow and that led me to think of an MJ arrow

it leaves the victim sat giggling in a corner staring at their hand, repeated use makes the victim paranoid

totally inappropriate but such fun

Blade_hunter
3rd Jun 2009, 13:54
It was just a "magical arrow" that creates an apparition of a ghost or an undead, but it's just an image, the creature generated by the arrow isn't real if an enemy goes where the image is generated the image disappear ...

Don't worry I won't suggest overkill weapons and/or arrows, but my worry about that arrow was more about the too much magical though, even if the use is only for distraction in a visual manner.

The Thief arsenal is close to be a complete arsenal in terms of distraction and tools, since Thief is game that privileges the utility use of a weapon rather than the weapon use ....

MasterTaffer
3rd Jun 2009, 19:18
The mines could work in 2 ways. If you press "r" to drop it, it arms it like a mine. But... if you press "m2" to throw it, it arms with a timer so you can slide in under a door and the gas fills the room on the other side and knocks out anyone in there. Then you have to wait a moment before entering.

Assuming someone is stupid enough to design a door with a crack under it large enough to slide a 5 inch tall mine underneath it, of course.

Hypevosa
3rd Jun 2009, 22:18
see in the thief universe the doors are all tight to the floor though for the sake of gameplay... would you want everyone on the other side hearing you cause of the crack under the door?

While it's a fun concept, it just isn't practical to throw a mine under a door. Maybe open a door slightly, slowly and drop one through and close it quick... but that's assuming they allow for that kind of interaction.

Blade_hunter
3rd Jun 2009, 22:27
How do you think about some tools like:
Bolt cutters (a tool for cutting chains)
http://www.germes-online.com/direct/dbimage/50109636/Bolt_Cutter.jpg
A circular class cutter (for cutting closed window glasses)
http://www.allproducts.com/manufacture98/glasstool/product3-s.jpg

Hypevosa
3rd Jun 2009, 23:08
bolt cutters are insanely heavy, and not a thing a thief would lug around when he has all the other equipment garrett does. However, the glass cutter I can see, as in previous games if you wanted to go through glass you had to break it... noisily. It could be something the player buys optionally, as most glass you can make your way around anyways.

kaekaelyn
4th Jun 2009, 00:51
I'm absolutely sure I'm not the first to put this out there, but I think the flashbombs in TDS were all wrong. I liked the ones that could backfire on you if you weren't careful, yet you got the added bonus of being able to blackjack your stunned opponent. The ones in TDS were less risky, but blackjacking a blinded foe would make them snap out of it. That felt rather backwards to me.

Hypevosa
4th Jun 2009, 01:07
yes, flashbombs should return to their former glory. If I clonk someone on the head who isn't prepared for it, they should go out... especially when blind and even more unaware.

MasterTaffer
4th Jun 2009, 01:13
yes, flashbombs should return to their former glory. If I clonk someone on the head who isn't prepared for it, they should go out... especially when blind and even more unaware.

And clonking them DEFINATELY shouldn't magically return their sight to normal state

Nate
4th Jun 2009, 08:48
Neat tools! I would like to see Garrett use specialty tools like bolt cutters and glass cutters for special missions.

I would also like to see a return of the more traditional flash bang (that posses some risk to Garrett as well).

Hypevosa
4th Jun 2009, 09:03
Playing through TMA again, I just found flash mines, and I'd forgotten they existed before... I like them, and I want them back.

DarthEnder
4th Jun 2009, 20:07
So I've been thinking about melee weapons, and I think it would be cool if Garrett gets a variety of different magic weapons during the course of the game, and when he's picking his kit at the start of the level, he has to choose which one he brings.

And each of these weapons is especially effective against one type of enemy and they form a sort of rock/paper/scissors type situation.


Essentially, you always have your trusty dagger and blackjack with you.

At the beginning of the game, your primary melee weapon is your trusty sword(possibly Constantine's).

Then there's special warhammer from the Hammerites you can wield that has a similar effect on undead that holy water does. You can drop a zombie with one sneak attack and hitting the corpse of an undead burns it to ashes in a burst of bluish white flame.

Then you get a magical sickle that belonged to the Pagan's that causes extra damage to machines with a rusting spell. And striking an already disabled machine with it causes it to crumble into a pile of rust dust.

And then you get an axe or cleaver of some kind from the Necromancers that is imbued with a magical necrotic toxin. Any Pagan beast, be it ratbeast, treebeast etc. takes extra damage from this, and any corpse for a beast you strike with it dissolves into a puddle of black ooze.


So at the beginning of each mission you decide which weapon you most want for that level. If the briefing has you raiding a tomb, you'd bring the hammer, if the mission has you breaking into a Hammerite factory you bring the sickle, etc.

Hypevosa
4th Jun 2009, 20:26
So I've been thinking about melee weapons, and I think it would be cool if Garrett gets a variety of different magic weapons during the course of the game, and when he's picking his kit at the start of the level, he has to choose which one he brings.

And each of these weapons is especially effective against one type of enemy and they form a sort of rock/paper/scissors type situation.


Essentially, you always have your trusty dagger and blackjack with you.

At the beginning of the game, your primary melee weapon is your trusty sword(possibly Constantine's).

Then there's special warhammer from the Hammerites you can wield that has a similar effect on undead that holy water does. You can drop a zombie with one sneak attack and hitting the corpse of an undead burns it to ashes in a burst of bluish white flame.

Then you get a magical sickle that belonged to the Pagan's that causes extra damage to machines with a rusting spell. And striking an already disabled machine with it causes it to crumble into a pile of rust dust.

And then you get an axe or cleaver of some kind from the Necromancers that is imbued with a magical necrotic toxin. Any Pagan beast, be it ratbeast, treebeast etc. takes extra damage from this, and any corpse for a beast you strike with it dissolves into a puddle of black ooze.


So at the beginning of each mission you decide which weapon you most want for that level. If the briefing has you raiding a tomb, you'd bring the hammer, if the mission has you breaking into a Hammerite factory you bring the sickle, etc.

I kinda like the idea of a weapon from each side, but.... why do we have a necromancy weapon? O.O

I don't see garrett wielding one of those hammers though, it would have to take like 4 whole seconds for him to swing it... unless garrett's been getting muscles for carrying that 400lbs in gold he always ends up with every mission.

DarthEnder
4th Jun 2009, 20:33
I kinda like the idea of a weapon from each side, but.... why do we have a necromancy weapon? O.OCause necromancers are the real third faction in the spiritual conflict of Thief man! It's all about the balance of the between Dynamism, Stasis and Entropy! The Trickster, The Builder and The Reaper! Don't you know anything about metaphysics!


I don't see garrett wielding one of those hammers though, it would have to take like 4 whole seconds for him to swing it... unless garrett's been getting muscles for carrying that 400lbs in gold he always ends up with every mission.The hammer he would get wouldn't be like the Hammers sledgehammers. The one that's enchanted for destroying undead would just happen to be a lighter one-handed hammer. Probably that some Hammerite made for his 10 year old niece for clearing out the family crypt. Perfect for Garrett!

Hypevosa
4th Jun 2009, 20:44
A warhammer then like the one they had william wallace wield in deadliest warrior. Sure, sounds good to me.

"You are healed!"
*groan? SPLOOSH the hammer goes through the zombie's forehead6

Lady_Of_The_Vine
6th Jun 2009, 17:11
Playing through TMA again, I just found flash mines, and I'd forgotten they existed before... I like them, and I want them back.

Interesting, I don't think I ever needed to use one myself... at least, I certainly can't remember doing so.
Occasionally one would get used by mistake... :o - so I would just reload. :whistle:

DarthEnder
6th Jun 2009, 17:49
I just used them as another flash bomb. Much like I'd use gas bombs just as I would gas arrows.

All charges should come in both mine and bomb form.

Hypevosa
6th Jun 2009, 18:30
I liked it because if I saw someone coming, I could lay one behind a corner, and wait for the "fuhkoosh" and run around the corner and blackjackem. They were also good in combination with a noise maker arrow. You lay it down, fire a noisemaker arrow to the flash mine, and all of them run over and get flashed at one time. :D

DarthEnder
6th Jun 2009, 18:54
Yep, setting up huge mine traps is pretty much all noisemakers are good for.

That and Constantine.

Hypevosa
6th Jun 2009, 19:16
Yep, setting up huge mine traps is pretty much all noisemakers are good for.

That and Constantine.

Don't forget noise arrow gas arrow classic.

Sebra
10th Jun 2009, 17:39
I think would be good, if Garrett can take short sword or dagger or both or none.
If I don`t want to fight anyone and sure can evade, I will take none.
If I want to try both, I will take both.
Also why do you think I _must_ take and use blackjack? May be I want to leave it at home.
If I choose to not take the bow, all arrows would be unusable, but I still have bombs, mines.
Allow me (and may be make me one level) to start mission with empty hands.
Allow me to use stolen weapons like swords (worse when guards), hammers (very bad but usable), even magic rods (as a club at least). Why not?

In Thief world we have 4 magic elements and 4 type of magic crystals: water, fire, earth(moss), air(gas).
If anyone wants more powerful versions make and hide in levels (very hard) reciepts to combine crystals.
We have:
1 water arrow: douse fire, clean blood, expand moss ... may be forgot some.
2. fire arrow: burn fire, ;;;
3. moss arrow: lay moss, silence breath...
4. gas arrow: knockout gas.
We can get combining:
Steam arrow (water+fire): douse fire, explode (push objects).
Moss pillow arrow(water+moss): big soft block to block path or soft fall onto. Lasts some seconds.
(water+gas) - I don`t know, poison may be.
Firewerk arrow (fire+moss): bright flash like flashbomb.
Explosive arrow (fire+gas): burn fire, explosion,
Dust arrow (moss+gas): wide range silence and blind eyes for some time.
They have price of arrow+both crystals to use it, so they are expensive.
Also reciepts must be really hard to find.

As for potions, I don`t like any potions. They are quite like a doping. At least untill other characters will use it, not only carry for you to grab.

If anyone want a mushrooms, make it so:
1. some different types with various effects without description.
2. different types like one another visually, able but hard to make out.
3. it must be hard to tell the effect untill you try it (and may be even later).

All this is my opinion only.

BG_HHaunt
12th Jun 2009, 06:05
I would like to see other weapons you find in the game usable.
Also a way to make yourself a fire arrow by igniting a normal arrow on fire.
And the fire arrow that explodes like in thief 1,2 and TDS should be called exploding arrow,while the normal arrow ignited by fire should not explode,but only set the target on fire.
There should also be a poison that is used on broadhead arrows to kill a victim or slow him or something like that.
And of course some other upgrades on arrows and especially rope arrows.

akalest0s
13th Jun 2009, 13:56
Hi all, 1st time I post here! I'm from Greece, so forgive any mistakes on spelling/grammar/syntax.
I have read the whole topic and will write down my opinion on this. Most things I will say are thoughts of others that I agree with.

Things I'd really like to see in:
- BlackJack
- Mechanical Eye
- Rope Arrow (instead of the climbing gloves), and ofc a proper level design for using it.
- Coin/Rock/random junk distraction. Some guards should get fooled, some others not.
- A "pssst!" button, that will have similar effects with the coin/rock thing, just with the difference that now guards will come your way (to finally meet a blackjak in the dark? :P)
- Special tools for (1) lockpicking. Make this a small challenge, not a boring feature. (2) ability to lock/disable doors of certain type, in order to stop the guards from chasing, for a small period of time. After that (10 seconds or something?) the guards will be able to unlock/break the door.
- Metal bracers for half-blocking (reducing damage taken when succesfully blocking an attack, or something similar)

Optional items that would be nice to be in, but no worries if not:
- Leather armour. It would be nice to have it, so that a noob can endure a few hits before duying. You could give louder sounds to Garrett's movements, when he wears it.
- A water-proof bag that lets you swim, since you can pack there all your stuff and keep it dry. (Generally, Garret would be better to be able to swim this time.)
- Strong glue flasks, that will let Garrett put it on floor and make guards walk over it.


Apart from these items, I would also like to see these abilities/characteristics:
- A way to evesdrop through a relatively thin wall, maybe with the use of a small, simple thing, or by simple putting his ear on wall surface. A thief not being able to evesdrop on the next room? Isn't that a bit lame?
- Lifetime limit on certain items, such as magic arrows losing their magic ability after a certain period of time. This one is important, as it would help giving a good reason to spend money.
- Some items should not go from mission to mission, while others should stay within Garrett's inventory. Im not very persistant on this, just a thought. Someone said that he doesn't want to have to visit every ventor before every single mission, to get again what was already his. What about puting more ventors, or giving ventors a wider range of diferrent stuff to offer?
- Ability to disarm almost all opponents if you manage to get close enough in stealth mode. Then they cannot fight you, except they have a secondary weapon (eg. dagger).
- It would be cool to have items to have a possibility of disfunction when used. I mean, when you e.g. are using a flash bomb, it may have a possibility (10%?) to not work properly, bursting in your hand before you throw it, or throwing it at enemy and not blowing. Something similar could happen to a few more weapons, to add a luck-factor, that will create a greater challenge for even an expert. On very difficult mode, possibility of misfunction could increase (19%?), so that things can go messy more easily, and pple have to stick with simplier stuff to avoid messing up (eg. blackjack, ghost mode, etc)
- Nate said he wants something uber expensive to spend money on, but it has to give a small improvement, so that it doesn't ruin challenge on ghost mode. Even then, it is more possible someone would not be interested in paying the money to make the game he has "mastered" any more easy. So, what I suggest is to have expensive (for normal players) and uber expensive rewards in different ways: (1) unlocking additional artwork (much like Prince of Perjia worked), (2) unlocking a few funny cheats, (3) give a specific ventor the availability of a new looking costume for Garrett, something looking very nice, (4) Im not a developer, I can't think of anything else :rasp:, any other ideas? I believe there could be some intersting rewards, we only have to look in other games, or just sit an imagine... Main point is to reward the player in a way to not make the gameplay easier, yet give him something that he wants, something interesting.
- Weight/Encumbrance. So much debate for this. My main point in this would be to see somehow the player being limited in what he can carry. No looting burden, no. But I think weighting weapons could work. Just don't overdo it. Only a little tiny. My preferred opinion is this:

to better represent a more 'realistic' and thief like gear load out, we could have the Highest 'Carry Capacity' Difficulty reduce Garrett's carry capacity to SOMETHING like the following:

-Garrett can carry a bow, 1 holy vial, 1 healing potion, 1 gas grenade, 2 flashbangs, and lockpicks
-Depending on how the player wants to approach the mission, Garrett must choose between a blackjack OR a dagger...but not both. Also, Garrett can't choose a longer/heavier short sword.
-Garrett can carry a max of 12 arrows (maybe stored in a side quiver attached to the bow). He would have complete freedom to choose WHICH 12 arrows he wants to carry (ie, 12 water arrows, or 12 broadhead arrows, or 3/3/3/3 water/fire/moss/noise arrows, or whatever combination the players wants to carry)....I am a bit worried about players simply choosing 12 gas arrows = uber arrows. Maybe they can make the gas arrows (and gas mines) uber expensive?

Just PLZ no individual item limit. I would hate to see a system that you can carry 12 arrows maximum, but only 2 of them can be gas arrows.....why can't I have 12 gas arrows if I want (as long as I can find or buy them)?

All that said, I still prefer the idea of each item/weapon/armor piece having an encumbrance value that can effect stealth/speed stats. It would appeal to multiple play style preferences and add replayability to the game.

But if the devs can't do a weight/encumbrance system, I could still be happy with Crypto's idea for a 'Carry Capacity' difficulty setting that controls how much equipment/weapons Garrett can carry.



Concerning the much debated items:
Before you judge me hard, let me explain myself. All this debate about what items to have. Let me introduce them to you, the way I see them, and then wait till i say how they can work in game:
- Dagger. I personally believe the dagger alone isn't needed, because of Blackjack. Only reason to add dagger, is if they make the blackjack only stunning and not killing.
- Throwing daggers. Damn cool. I would really like to see them, BUT in really tiny numbers (1 or 2 in a mission) and not re-collectable. They can be poisoned (parallising for a small period of time, or making a guard loosing control of senses, thus walking randomly to a direction, risking him going to the opposite way of the one you want him to go) or normal daggers, that can be used as a one or two-hit killers. This would be similar to broadhead arrows. Also, the thr. daggers could have the ability to undo the undead, so that's an extra use of them asside with holy water.
- Sword. A sword should be a short one, and could have a later replacement by a better one, since later you could also be facing harder guards. But not a long sword, not at least from the beginning. Because-you-simply-are-a-thief! Good and logical to have something to defend yorself when need arises, but that's all. Additionaly, to prevent player from killing a lot with it, you can give it a crappy damage. So, it has the best defence (aka block) you can have, but it doesn't allow you to attack, at least not that easily. You still have to rely on other means to kill/stun/bypass an enemy.
- Bow. Ofc. How could it not be included? But I would really like to see it as OPTIONAL. How cool would it be to go into a mission without even a bow, only your blackjack, your eye and the hood ;)
- CrossBow? Yes! I would like to be able to take a crossbow instead or along a bow. Difference? It could be that it only fires broadhead bolts (which could also be removed from normal bow, but I wouldn't vote for this), and most of all, it could be used to "nail" those rope arrows, when you want to put them in sheer stone/really tought matterals. A bow is good to throw an arrow-rope. But what about a huge rock, stones and the such? It would be cool to be able to use a crossbow for this. It is known that xbows have extra power for less range and slower reload. Also, when using broadhead bolts, it could have a nice nockback effect on an enemy, especially those who are not well-armoured. Ofc, the xbow could come at much higher costs, both the xbow and the bolts, so that you disnecourage the player from using it often, plus helping with giving something to put your money on (better economy system on the whole).
- Flash Bombs and Flash Mines? Y not! You can have the one being sold in certain ventors, while the other in different ventors. So you choose the one closer to you or you take all the way to go to the vendor that has what flash-thing you want.

Ofc I'm not crazy, and as I'll write later, I don't want Garrett to be a superkilling machine. What I am suggesting is this:
Find a way (ventor item availability control, maybe using proper storyline? Graduation!) to give the player both o the similar items, other times simultaneously, others not. It's all about what freedom you give to the player. If the developers are careful enough, they can give you the correct choices, so that you can play with the one or the other choice, or let you choose which one you want.
Here is an example. It is big and maybe kinda boring, so read it only if you have the time:P :

(I will be referring to all other items as "standard stuff", except the dagger/throwing daggers, sword, xbow, flash bombs, flash mines. Bows included to "standard stuff")
Mission_1. You can have a throwing-dagger set (2knifes) along with the standard stuff, and play the mission. When mission ends, the player cannot buy other daggers atm. If he played them, he lost them.
Mission_2. Before this mission you can go to vendors, where you see a sword, but you still cannot buy it due to its cost. You have to play this mission without a dagger or a sword. Standard stuff only.
Mission_3. You now have enough money for a short sword. A sword generally is a classic equipment, while the throwing daggers are a bit rare to find. You learn to defend yourself with the sword, and pick a fight when you have messed that bad.
Mission_4. You can now buy flash bombs from vendors, and make good use of them. You also have your sword.
Mission_5. According to the storyline, someone gives you again thr. daggers, and you can use them here. Lets assume they have the ability to stun the undead (are they silver?) and this is an undead mission. Cool to have 2 of these daggers in your belt, isn't it?
Mission_6. After mission5, you are again out of daggers (maybe), but now vendors sell them normally,.. at a price ofc! And it's not a low one. In this mission6, when you reach a certain enemy (something like a mission boss, or a special guard), you have the (one and only?) opportunity to steal from him his crossbow. You take it and there you are, with a nice crossbow on you back, but unable to use it (no bolts!).
Mission_7. A new vendor is added to the map, as new areas are accessible. You now have the ability to buy bolts from this as well as other vendors. But only bolts, not xbows. In case you don't want your xbow, you can leave it in your room before a mission. You now can climb to areas you couldnt before, since the xbow allows you to throw bolt-ropes into stones.

This is just a way it could work, I don't say I am making the game, just a simple (pathetic) scenario to give you the idea. I hope you understood what I was trying to tell you.
All in all, it's not if they have this or that item in (swords against daggers?), but it certainly is a matter of how you offer this to the player, and how you balance it out ;)





Other thoughts concerning items:
- Please don't go rpg-like. Keep the style of items we have so far. New items enable you new abilities, but I would not like to see level1 bow, level2 bow, level3 bow - lvl1 rope, lvl2 rope - etc. Also keep the more medievalish weapons and mehanical structures, than the magical/fantasy ones. Generally, keep it Thief matterial, don't go extremely into fantasy. It's much more genuine this way imho, if that makes sense.
- Focus on stealthy tactics, not on fighting ones, when it comes to items. Give Garrett fighting weapons, but focus on the stealthy ones. These are the ones that should have real depth and intersting gameplay design. Not the fighting ones. That is for example, don't put some crossbow with one-hit shots in the game. Would ruin everything.
- Make stealth need real skill (pretty much as it was in previous titles, or even better if it can be).
- This one is the most important thing, maybe in the whole game: You should really focus on the way missions are gameplayed. Items are already pretty much ok. Even if you don't change them at all (with 1-2 exceptions), I don't think we will be that unhappy. BUT. What will bring the real interest in the new title, is to FOCUS on the way a mission has to be carried out. Not that much on the weapons you use, but on the thoughts, the ideas, the effeciency one has to put to gather his loot and make his way out. I don't say this was missing in previous titles, but focusing on this can make the new title be different than other games out. The more cleverly the levels and missions are designed, the more potential you put in this title. Don't give us for example some super cool weapons, and then give us stupid missions, or the same missions as before (which were very nice on the whole, very cool). FOCUS ON THE WAY ONE CAN PLAY THE MISSIONS! They are the essense of the game.


Thanks for your time. Any ideas on my post are welcome. I hope developers will pay some attention on this thread after all :scratch::scratch::scratch:

Nate
13th Jun 2009, 14:03
Hi akalest0s!

I always liked the 'limited lifespan' on magic equipment concept. IT ACTUALLY EXPLAINED WHY GARRETT HAD TO KEEP BUYING NEW EQUIPMENT IN THE FIRST 2 GAMES....lol!

akalest0s
13th Jun 2009, 14:09
Hi there!
Did you read the whole post already? Jesus... you are fast! :D

Nate
13th Jun 2009, 14:29
That's what my girlfriend keeps telling me....but she always seems mad about it for some reason?

Platinumoxicity
13th Jun 2009, 14:39
Fast Jesus is fast

Pieter888
13th Jun 2009, 15:07
Don't know if it has been listed here already (iv'e only read the first page).
But I'd like to seen not only weapons and potions in the store. but upgrades for your equipment as well. like new boot for silent footsteps and a better cloak that can hold more equipment than usual and is harder to spot. maybe even upgrade the weapons. for example the dagger to do more damage in a fight. or a gas arrow upgrade that makes the gas cloud bigger/more lethal.

Sebra
16th Jun 2009, 20:43
Yes. One of ways to good dagger in this game is Silver_Dagger!
I want an effective and simple(as idea, not as execution) way to stab the undead.
It is too dumb to dump a holy/flash to each zombie on your way.
If dagger would be silver/blessed it would be best anti undead weapon.
It also easily increase cost. Can be unique.
May be unable to use a blessed dagger against people.
Such precious dagger can be thrown with need of recovery.
May be need 20-30 seconds to fully dissolve undead.

Crossbow is too large to hide it. Not needed in this game.
How a vendor can explain he sell just a bolts?
It`s too dumb to get a material but unable to get a tool.

And just to repeat:
I want to be able to leave at home/hideout any tool I don`t want to take on mission.
Including sword/dagger/blackjack/bow anyfing else (but lockpicks may be).
Missions "without preparations" and "I loose my hideout" are exeption of course.

Platinumoxicity
16th Jun 2009, 21:42
but upgrades...


Yes.

No. Learn to use what you have, don't expect the game to make itself easier for you. :mad2:
And there shouldn't be an easy and convenient way to destroy undead. The undead in Thief is better than in most games because it's very hard to kill. The best anti-undead weapon is still the holy water arrow. You don't need anything else.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
16th Jun 2009, 23:25
what about flashbombs? The undead were actually not that big of a deal if you had holy water or flashbombs. Just round them up to really make it count.

Nate
17th Jun 2009, 00:49
Flashbombs are the easiest way to kill undead....really, too easy!

Nothke
17th Jun 2009, 01:12
Flashbombs are the easiest way to kill undead....really, too easy!

then if its too easy you can have some kind of big negative effect, like a lot of noise, sound, big price or even damaging Garrett, I mean, why not, it would bring more ballance.

Hypevosa
17th Jun 2009, 01:36
it does blind you if you're being stupid about it... but the sound should alert people who can hear it, or at least someone yelling out I'M BLIND should attract others to come to their aid "Are you all right benny? How many fingers am I holding up? no wait... you can't count..."

Ragnalin The Thief
17th Jun 2009, 09:37
Personally I think weapons should be way more customisable for example you start with a dagger and if you want you can buy a rapier or short sword each weapon has it's own pros and cons ut it's up to your personal choice :)

Platinumoxicity
17th Jun 2009, 10:21
Personally I think weapons should be way more customisable for example you start with a dagger and if you want you can buy a rapier or short sword each weapon has it's own pros and cons ut it's up to your personal choice :)

Garrett has carried a short sword around way more times than a dagger, and he also has one on his living room wall, so he doesn't have to buy one. Also, why would he need to buy any when he can just as easily steal a short sword during a mission. There were plenty to go around in TDS. :P

akalest0s
17th Jun 2009, 22:01
Crossbow is too large to hide it. Not needed in this game.
How a vendor can explain he sell just a bolts?
It`s too dumb to get a material but unable to get a tool.

What do you mean, it's easy to find a reason. For example you can say that town guard police has forbiden its use and thus its sales, because it's very deadly (historical hint ;)), but anyway. This was just a draft scenario I posted, to show how it could be implemented, in a smart way to limit the player's choices, and not make garrett a superhero. That's all lad. :cool:

Nate
17th Jun 2009, 23:07
Personal experience with bows and crossbows = the bows seem to be MUCH more accurate and longer ranged than crossbows.....seems reasonable that Garrett would prefer a bow for just those reasons.

akalest0s
17th Jun 2009, 23:27
Nate, have you read what I have written? Crossbows are shorter ranged, and less accurate. But they are much stronger. That is why I suggested garrett using them to put bolt-ropes into wooden/rocky surfaces. And there should be limited use of them somehow, so that the player won't become superhero. Jesus, did I just wrote that 3 times or what? :P

Hypevosa
17th Jun 2009, 23:48
Not that he's firing arrows that far 99% of the time, or having any real world parameters imposed on their flight but gravity,

I was actually toying with the idea of firing a fire arrow or gas arrow so slow, that the air resistance was enough to stop it, and the tip would just point up and the tail would fall down and it would sit there till you grabbed it.... Maybe they could be set up like air mines XD just a fun idea...

Nate
17th Jun 2009, 23:48
Nate, have you read what I have written? Crossbows are shorter ranged, and less accurate. But they are much stronger. That is why I suggested garrett using them to put bolt-ropes into wooden/rocky surfaces. And there should be limited use of them somehow, so that the player won't become superhero. Jesus, did I just wrote that 3 times or what? :P

Sorry bud, I remember reading what you had said, but I forgot what topic it was in.

Glad to see we agree about the crossbow's lack of accuracy and range though.

Hypevosa
17th Jun 2009, 23:56
I can just see Garrett drawing his bow, firing a fire arrow at a guard who's like 300 yards away, and the guard kinda rears up and puts his hands infront of his face right as the arrow stops infront of him and just hangs there. He laughs and touches the tip and it explodes XD

Garrett just wanted the distraction, not the kill.

akalest0s
18th Jun 2009, 01:44
I can just see Garrett drawing his bow, firing a fire arrow at a guard who's like 300 yards away,

This assumes we first have huge levels I guess! 300 yards.. how mane meters is this? other than that, a nice idea.

@Nate. No worries man. ;)

Hypevosa
18th Jun 2009, 02:10
1 yard is just short of a meter... by how much I don't know, but I think around 250-280 meters is 300 yards.

lefty
18th Jun 2009, 02:45
A yard is 3 feet. A meter is 3.3 feet or so. 100 centimeters in a meter, 2.5 centimeters in an inch. 12 inches to a foot. 4 quarts to a gallon.

Hypevosa
18th Jun 2009, 05:29
yay I was right :D

Ragnalin The Thief
19th Jun 2009, 05:56
Personally I believe there should be more player "choice" as to what weapon to use.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
21st Jun 2009, 21:40
Not T4 exactly, but armour-related and I thought interesting to share. :)

I went to London last week and visited the Tower and the "Royal Armouries" exhibition, which was fantastic, to say the least. I was particularly impressed by "The Horned Helmet". It was presented by the Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I to Henry VIII when he was 23 years of age, and made in Innsbruck between 1511-1514 by the master armourer Konrad Seusenhofer. It is all that is left of a full suit of body armour that was decorated with etching and silver-gilt. Henry must have been impressed by this magnificent gift as within a year he firmly established his own armour workshop staffed by German craftsmen. This became known as the Greenwich Workshop producing armour for the King and later, the Elizabethan court.

Suits of armour were designed to strike fear in the hearts of the enemy, and as soon as I set eyes on this helmet, I instantly got the spooks! :eek: The wearer can see through the eyes, breathe through the nostrils and speak through the mouth. I just find it a fascinating and surreal piece for its period, and wanted to share with you, just for fun.

Here are two images:

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu83/T4Mod/hornedhelmet1.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu83/T4Mod/hornedhelmet.jpg

Apparently, there is ongoing debate that the horns were possibly added as an afterthought as they somehow interfere with a channel for other decoration. After studying the horns myself, I can't say I agree with this suggestion. Some scholars think that it’s unlikely that such a strange piece would have been presented to a king - but it may have been an 'inside joke'. It is recorded in writings that Will Somers, a jester to the court of Henry VIII, sported a suit of armor with spectacles attached to the metal helmet with rivets - though there is no specific connection between Somers and the helmet. It is also considered that the mask sports a Hasburg nose. All mere speculation, but interesting nevertheless. There are eyebrows etched in and wrinkles and even beard stubble.

It is a very mysterious and wonderful piece. If you get the chance to see it in the flesh, I recommend that you do so. :cool:

FriendlyStranger
22nd Jun 2009, 10:52
New equipment?

For my part I have got two ideas, which might come in handy:

- Knockout Arrow: An arrow with a blunt head, that when aimed directly at the (helmless) head or neck knocks out the victim just like the blackjack. Could be useful if you are above a watchman and can't afford a gas arrow.

- Fog Bomb: Creates a field of fog, to let you pass a well guarded/surveiled area. The guard wouldn't get alerted, since fog isn't that unnatural. (At least on the exterior.) You also could use it as an alternative escape weapon similar to the flash bomb, also hindering the sight of the enemy. (Like the good old ninja smoke balls as seen on The Turtles)