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View Full Version : FACTIONS: the return of - and new ideas?



Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th May 2009, 13:13
The previous games introduced us to the ancient sect of The Keepers; the religious group known as The Order of the Hammer (The Hammerites): the Mechanists (The Order of the Gear) who were an offshoot of the Hammerites; and the nature-loving Pagans (The Order of the Vine).

Would you like to see any of these factions and characters return in T4? If so, who/what?

Perhaps you have new ideas too? Please share...


___



*Moderator Update* / June 2013
*Moderator Update* / June 2013




Raptorll: Are the old non-City Watch factions going to return--such as the Pagans, Hammerites, and Keepers--if only to give life to The City?


Thief Devs: Because it's a reinvention, we are not going back to the old factions. We want new factions. The last story didn't give us a lot of options. We wanted to take a step back and make sure we have everything right for a new, fresh experience within this universe. There may be some references back to keep the following happy, but it will be all new groups.

The two new factions are the Baron and he has The Watch. We also have a dissident group called the Raven. There is a political conflict that Garrett finds himself in the middle of. There will be characters associated with the group that will reveal themselves within the game.

http://www.shacknews.com/article/79782/thief-dev-answers-community-questions

mister_riz
11th May 2009, 13:46
As long as the game focuses on balance between Pagans and Hammers I'll be happy, be careful introducing new factions as the entire story was focused around these two.

Gillie
11th May 2009, 13:47
Pagan's I hope I loved the nature loving Pagan's Like me.
Rope arrows
Garrett of course (Stephen Russell)

Yandros
11th May 2009, 14:20
Hammerites and Pagans are most important to me, followed closely by the remnants of the Keepers.

Gillie
11th May 2009, 14:27
Hammerites and Pagans are most important to me, followed closely by the remnants of the Keepers.

I liked the Keepers as well. Except those keeper enforcers in TDS.

Nate
11th May 2009, 14:46
The Hand Mages could play a big part in this one. Perhaps they could threaten the 'balance' by trying to take advantage of the removal of the Keepers (as well as the decline of the Pagans and Hammers).

Their motivations for taking over the Keepers position of control could be for far more selfish reasons than preserving any balance....although they might try to pass off their actions as noble and selfless for political gain.

Barsavian
11th May 2009, 15:04
mages trying to take over for the keepers and trying to hunt down the survivors(including garret) would be an acceptable plot hook. Everyone know mages have all sorts of goodies they wouldn't really miss either...until its too late.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th May 2009, 15:28
I hope Benny returns! :D

NathanGPLC
11th May 2009, 15:52
One thing that Thief 3 didn't touch on very much was the existence of the general nobility in the City.

The struggle between the Hammers and the Pagans is not the only political struggle in a pseudo-feudal city. The Baron (apparently) is the ruler, but other offices--like Commander of the Watch, the Master of Taxes, the Master of Imports and Exports, etc--are generally held by nobles the ruler chooses to appoint. Basically, because they can't afford to pay their nobility for their loyalty, they give them jobs they can use to make money hand over fist.

The first two games made it clear that the City existed as a separate entity within which these factions warred (well, the Pagans and the Hammers warred; the Keepers just...kept :D ), and Thief 3 felt hollow and less complete by comparison; the City wasn't as real. I'd like to see the Pagans, Hammers, and Keepers make their return, but dealing directly with the Watch, other nobles and City officials, the Mages, the local crime bosses ('wardens'), and so on would make the game feel solid and well-developed.

Blessed be,
~Nathan

Necros
11th May 2009, 16:12
I hope Benny returns! :D
:thumb: :D

I think the three factions are enough, no need for a new one. Some of the important characters should return too.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th May 2009, 16:16
What about Viktoria? ;)

Sure, she sacrificed herself but did she actually "die"?
As a tree spirit/plant-form, perhaps she is just in a state of 'dormancy'?

Your thoughts? :)

ConVuzius
11th May 2009, 16:21
hi there,
please no more mechs, zombies or keeper assassins, i would like to play in a authentic world without any superhard enemys, some big hammerites are enough.

UrUkUs
11th May 2009, 16:21
What about Viktoria? ;)

Sure, she sacrificed herself but did she actually "die"?
As a tree spirit/plant-form, perhaps she is just in a state of 'dormancy'?

Your thoughts? :)

if she died, she could return as a zombie-boss or something :D;)

Gillie
11th May 2009, 16:22
Oh yes Viktoria. Benny too, he is such an amusment in the game.
Burricks I forgot, just love them. I could never hit them though. :D
The walking trees just scare me.

TSFroggy
11th May 2009, 16:23
Hammers, Pagans, and Keepers for sure. I think that the Mechanists were an interesting take but they were made infinitely more so by Karras (which was also voiced by Stephen Russell.)

NathanGPLC
11th May 2009, 16:24
I think I can spot your favorite character, Vik :)

I can see that working either way. Bringing Viktoria back might undermine the importance of her sacrifice, but...in the world of the City, isn't everyone fairly self-serving, in the end? By that light, it would track that she only did it because she knew she'd be back.


The question is, does Eidos Montreal want to make Viktoria's sacrifice an example of how sometimes the greater good DOES bring the characters to acts of selflessness, or do they want to bring her back and prove just how jaded the City is?

However, while connections to the previous story arcs are good, re-use of old material JUST to re-use it is bad. The plot of any text, be it a book, a movie, or a computer game, is most beautiful when every line, every act, is absolutely necessary to the work as a whole. Not that world-building and background are bad, but everything that gets put in should build atmosphere, immersion, or the necessary storylines. Any new or old factions, or returning characters, should be judged on that basis.

Blessed be,
~Nathan

legendarylorot
11th May 2009, 16:25
One thing that Thief 3 didn't touch on very much was the existence of the general nobility in the City.

The struggle between the Hammers and the Pagans is not the only political struggle in a pseudo-feudal city. The Baron (apparently) is the ruler, but other offices--like Commander of the Watch, the Master of Taxes, the Master of Imports and Exports, etc--are generally held by nobles the ruler chooses to appoint. Basically, because they can't afford to pay their nobility for their loyalty, they give them jobs they can use to make money hand over fist.

The first two games made it clear that the City existed as a separate entity within which these factions warred (well, the Pagans and the Hammers warred; the Keepers just...kept :D ), and Thief 3 felt hollow and less complete by comparison; the City wasn't as real. I'd like to see the Pagans, Hammers, and Keepers make their return, but dealing directly with the Watch, other nobles and City officials, the Mages, the local crime bosses ('wardens'), and so on would make the game feel solid and well-developed.

Blessed be,
~Nathan

Very good points. It's clear that with the use of the Last of All Glyphs that the Keepers are certainly on the decline,and will have to search for other methods to 'maintain balance' between all factions, and among the nobility/citizentry. This opens up several avenues of possible storyline that could continue fairly seamlessly off the previous arcs.

One possibility is a Keeper-Rival type faction, perhaps an elite few nobles seeing an opportunity and attempting to gain power in the City by playing the citizens/other nobles via the combined fears of Pagans/Extremist Hammerites. All for personal gain. A sort of the 'captialist bastards' scenario seen in many movies of late, and was hinted at briefly by listening at doors in Thief2's mission "Life of the Party".

Nate
11th May 2009, 16:35
Hmmm, Viktoria sacrificed herself to create enough plant material to kill Karas...all that plant material she turned into was destroyed by the dust. I don't see how they could bring her back in a plausible way.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th May 2009, 16:44
Hmmm, Viktoria sacrificed herself to create enough plant material to kill Karas...all that plant material she turned into was destroyed by the dust. I don't see how they could bring her back in a plausible way.

All of it? ;)

Not too sure about that myself... I'm always trying to eliminate the weeds in my garden. :D

Barsavian
11th May 2009, 16:46
I hope Benny returns! :D

This 100 times over. Benny was the best charactor apart from Garret.

NathanGPLC
11th May 2009, 16:48
Very good points. It's clear that with the use of the Last of All Glyphs that the Keepers are certainly on the decline,and will have to search for other methods to 'maintain balance' between all factions, and among the nobility/citizentry. This opens up several avenues of possible storyline that could continue fairly seamlessly off the previous arcs.

One possibility is a Keeper-Rival type faction, perhaps an elite few nobles seeing an opportunity and attempting to gain power in the City by playing the citizens/other nobles via the combined fears of Pagans/Extremist Hammerites. All for personal gain. A sort of the 'captialist bastards' scenario seen in many movies of late, and was hinted at briefly by listening at doors in Thief2's mission "Life of the Party".

Interesting; I could see Garrett getting involved in a mission to stop a group of uppity nobles doing something stupid that he knows will lead to Certain Doom (tm) for the City as a whole; of course, as far as he's concerned, he's just doing it because he wants to protect himself and take all their money.

That's the key point; Garrett has to be in it for himself, at least at first; any desire to be involved has to be sparked by self-interest, even if he does wind up holding a grudge against the bad guy or doing something to help others.

Blessed be,
~Nathan

Nate
11th May 2009, 16:51
All of it? ;)

Not too sure about that myself... I'm always trying to eliminate the weeds in my garden. :D

Touché!

Danie1
11th May 2009, 17:49
I like the idea of dealing with the nobility. Thief has centered on groups that are well organized with clear goals: Thief - Hammerites/Woodsie Lord, Thief II - Mechanists, Thief DS - Keepers.
It's about time that Thief gets gritty and starts being about stealing and getting rich instead of saving the world! Of course, a large inter-noble estates conflict would come up and you will save someone in the end anyway. Perhaps revisit the idea of corruption Sheriff Truart left behind?

Hank Scorpio
11th May 2009, 17:54
Benny and his sidekick, the clever guard. Both of the voice-actors were so perfect in them in T:DS.

Silmuen
11th May 2009, 18:08
The whole idea of corrupt nobility which was touched upon in TDP. Really fascinating to explore I think, and it takes the focus away from the supernatural a bit.
Which doesn't need to be a complete shift. Thief's wouldn't be Thief if not for the supernatural part.


... and bring back Benny, hoho. :D

Nate
11th May 2009, 18:19
Well, maybe a combination of the Hand Mages and certain nobles trying to take over the Keeper/Hammer/Pagan power vacuum...but with dangerous intentions.

Prospekt1125
11th May 2009, 19:34
I hope the three "main" factions will return, them being the Keepers, the Pagans, and the Hammers.

I can foresee the possibility that all of them may be in some turmoil, however, being that Caduca wrought so much havoc on the City seeking the Final Glyph.

I sort of remember the Keepers' Compund being exposed to the citizens of the City, and so it would seem that that faction is no longer as secret as they were previously. Perhaps some changes will be made to the faction because of this exposure? Who knows...

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
11th May 2009, 21:30
Pagans, Hammers, (Garrett in the middle trying to keep them balanced) city watch, nobility and their goons, former keepers and crime syndicates/guilds. Yes it would be great if some of the former leaders and unique individuals from the various groups would make appearances (like Dyne ).

xXFl4meXx
11th May 2009, 23:30
It would be great if there was a comeback of the Trickster & Viktoria, maybe Dyan revives them in a secret ritual? Hmm.. maybe the Trickster is to much, hed be to bad ass for Thief IV :P

It would be great if the character can be more immersed with the factions. One flaw in Thief 3 was the ability to be allied with the Pagans and the Hammers, when clearly they are both at each others throats. It would be great if Garrett can choose what side he wants to be on, & actually help them & there cause? Or would that be out of his character? Since he chooses to be neutral with all.. Or not, I mean after all in Thief 3 Garrett did help the factions, & he got to choose if he wants to be an enemy or friend etc. So why not in Thief 4, just make it more immersive, Thief 3 was like a tease..

Dia1
11th May 2009, 23:45
I would definitely love to see Benny and his sometimes-partner again (with more extensive dialogue while they're guarding) in T4. I'd also like to see the return of the Keepers, Mechanists, and Hammerites. Never did care much for Pagans; their woodsie-speak tended to get on my nerves and made me want to blackjack the lot of them!

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
11th May 2009, 23:47
>xXFl4meXx

Its actually logical for someone who sees destined to restore balance (whether he likes it or not) to have good relations with non-aggressive and non-overly zealot members on both sides (of course it might not be a good idea to boast with how friendly you are with the "other side").

Pipinowns
11th May 2009, 23:57
I think seeing the Kurshok again would be awesome.

xXFl4meXx
12th May 2009, 02:01
Oh right, I forgot to mention that it would be really nice to help a faction develop, kind of like in Thief III when you get that sapling & plant it at the Pagan headquarters at the docks, & it grows? Stuff like that makes it more immersive and gives more detail to the factions.

Oh and also it would be very niiiice, if we can revisit the Maw of Chaos in Thief IV? :D

abr4
12th May 2009, 02:06
I didn't like the mechanists at first, but they really grew on me and now they're my favourite faction.

I really don't know how to bring them back though ^^

And I'd really love to see Viktoria back, she really was amazing at complementing Garrett in Thief 2.

maddermadcat
12th May 2009, 02:10
I really don't know how to bring them back though ^^

There's no reason their contraptions shouldn't still be found here and there. Maybe maintained by former mechanists that managed to escape the hammerite trials somehow?

Iceblade
12th May 2009, 07:28
Well, we do know that Viktoria needed help from two pagan priestesses ("Diane, Larkspur, I needs speak with you, now.")...whether this was to prepare her for the explosive sacrifice at Soul Forge or for a rebirth or simply a passing of the mantle of leadership is up for debate. One has to wonder with a demigod like her being gone and the loss of the Trickster's mortal form, if this wouldn't cause some rather nasty side-effects to the world such that a least some part of Viky would need to be alive to maintain balance. Didn't we see a rift between the pagans and the forest creatures (apes and treebeasts)?

Now then the pagans and hammers are going to be weak as a result of recent years and a pretty significant disenfranchisement by the masses in general (this has been growing over the years and the quick fall of the Mechanists probably dropped some interest by most everybody aside from some nobles).

The keepers are the big question however. Their hiding places and compounds (now visible) will bring a lot of undo attention (maybe not from the masses in general but almost certainly from both the powers that be and some of the middle nobility). The organization will carry on. Granted a lot of the scribes will be pretty disillusioned and a general loss of purpose will be felt by many, but the group as a whole will hold and reorganize and refocus themselves (which pretty much reduces their involvement in the world in general for a time). Afterall, keepers are about balance not glyphs. In fact, glyphs weren't really introduced as anything intrinsic to the Keepers aside from those prophecies. It is only in TDS that they seem to become more of a centerpiece. Even still, we know that the keepers originally used the glyphs as tools, not crutches, so they should be able to handle on their own without them.

So we are left with a power vacuum with the younger masses not driven by faith or ideology, but by politics. A fact that is indicated in the first game. (TG: Hammer1: hm1c1403: But fewer brother, fewer. Youths in this time seek to learn about gold and politics, not honest craft.) So we will probably see a push more towards the ensuing strife brought on by the immense power vacuum as every faction will be taking part in the struggle for supremacy with Garrett in the middle. We would probably expect to see some help from former keepers (a small number of whom will still be working almost as if nothing had changed...still gathering useful information for maintaining the balance).

So we have the Hand Mages showing some interest (maybe), a resurgence by the crime wardens as they vie for control (and vice versa) with the nobles as the political conflict ramps up.

Speaking of political wars, what about the Baron's war....so many of you have forgotten about it. We know in TMA that things were starting to turn badly (though this could be false information used for political purposes to get more money from nobles and the populace). Could the war come close to home for the City or we'll the war end in a marginal peace accord where both sides, tired of the conflict, call off the fighting satisfied with their gains and okay with the losses or even where the Baron returns victorious and comes back to crack down on the rebellious/warring factions (both political or religious).

All of this I see as kind of the natural progression of events from T1 through TDS.

Hank Scorpio
12th May 2009, 08:57
The 3 factions should return but I feel the Pagans and Hammers should be stonger, particularly following the ending of T: DS. Perhaps even at war.

I didn't like the idea of Garrett allying with either or both factions in T: DS. It just seemed beneath him. Shooting rust mites f.e. For me, if Garrett returns, he should be like the wise old head. Coming out of retirement to keep things in check, maintain 'the peace'.

On the other hand you could just have Garrett maintain his role as a thief, a criminal - stealing from all and sundry.

Apprentice101
12th May 2009, 12:15
Actually i would love to see ALL factions returning. It would really be great to play like 2 interlinked missions of each oponent style. (because one is not enough to capture the FEEL)

Like 2 interlinked Guard missions/Pagan missions/Hammerite missions/Supernatural missions (like maw of chaos, statues, Kurshok)/ Undead missions (this is MANDATORY :)).
I am pretty not sure about Mechanists tho. Stealing from robots is not my kind of thing. Dont get me wrong, i loved Thief II, but i would like to play some GOOD that style mission, just not in the style OF ROBOTS ARE EVERYWHERE.

huzi73
12th May 2009, 22:50
Points to keep in mind:
Constantine seemed like a noble class dude influenced by pagans and therafter possessed by the tricksters spirit.In order for the trickster to become manifest once again(TDP hinted that the hammers had a previous great conflict with the pagans,in which i assume they defeated the trickster)constantine had to reuinite with the eye
Viktoria could be reincarnated,since she is also supernatural,she could be "revived".(Same theory as constantine)
hammers WERE the law in TDP(a conversation in ramirez mansion,1 guard tells the other "they used to be the power,now they're just a bunch of guys talkin bout the old days").
City watch became the equivelent of the "law" after the hammers fell from grace due to constantine in TDP,and then were weakened even more in TMA due to the mechanists.The same applies to pagans,who were crippled by the defeat of constantine,and then oppressed further by karras.
In theory:
Remnants of the mechanists may still exist,(just like how pagans continue to survive after constantines death)
Hammers are fanatics,but not overly oppresive,they did not exterminate the pagans,but kept them in check..
The mechanists are more oppresive,inventive than the hammers and also wealthier,due to support from the nobility.
Keepers.are much weaker more exposed,maybe even extinct?
The hand mages arent "big" enough to be a faction (yet...)
undeath could be either a rare natural occurence,or influenced by hand mages or pagans?

Sheriff Truart junior,if he exists,could be seeking vengeance for his fathers death.
Kurshok are somehow related to pagans.
Garret prefers to remain a thief rather than a keeper,he doesnt give a damn about any faction,and usually ends up being dragged into the conflict by the keepers(by means of the prophecies,or feeling moraly obliged.)garret was eyeing basso the boxmans sister in the 1st 2 games.
What do you think?

DF-HellFier
13th May 2009, 17:40
I wat see more undead's (hounts, zombies, ghost's e.t.c) Bonehord - It will be perfect!
Also, I will be so happy if you could put some Burric's in some place (bounhord, or perhaps some kind of cave with tunnels under the city - or his blocked part because some reason - you can choose that reason xD)

DF-HellFier
13th May 2009, 17:42
Allmost forgot! Keeper's & Victoria!!!!!!!!! Bring back Victoria!!!

DarthEnder
13th May 2009, 17:50
er...Victoria is dead.


Anyway,

City Watch/Guards - The usual guards, maybe add in a guard dog(or some kind of guard anime, since this is a fantasy world, like guard...lizard? I dunno), that tracks you by scent. And then have the city watch actually controlled by the former keepers, and the Enforcers actually hunt you using stealth.

3 different "religious factions":

The Hammers - Hammer soldiers, bring back Iron Golems and the Watcher masks.

The Pagans - Tree Beasts, Ratmen, maybe other beastmen etc.

The Ghouls - Necromancers, Haunts, Zombies


Then have 4 different order of elemental mages: Fire Earth Water Air

Each with its own mundane guards, but also mages, and conjured elementals, each of which is weak against a specific type of elemental arrow etc.


I'm all for them throwing everything into the game, even if, say, you only run into a particular enemy in one little house during a mission where you are crossing the city. Why you ask? Because that gives modders more assets to use later. Maybe you only have one water elemental in the whole game? But it lets some mission maker build a water temple thingy later. And that's good for everyone.

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
13th May 2009, 18:09
Victoria could have offspring. Her being a dryad can have an interesting effect on her child since plant offspring is usually identical to the parent.

DF-HellFier
13th May 2009, 18:30
Victoria, she's a godness.. (I hope, that i wrote this right) She only loos her mortal "body" - so she can return... ok, may be in another body...

And I agree with you opinion: "I'm all for them throwing everything into the game" !

tender19
13th May 2009, 20:25
I don't want to see any categorized fractions, as seen in TDS, but I would welcome all of them (you know, Lovecraft had these monsters, Derleth categorized them - not so interesting anymore). Guards, City Watch and Keepers absolutely. Would see a Hammerite / Mechanist conflict, or a brand new religious group derived from those. Pagans, definitely, subtle appearances, mystic weirdness in the background, you know... something's going on. As for the undead and burricks... not directly as opponents, but I'd see them, as well elementals and other monsters... but only "cameo-appearances". And yeah, I loved to see Basso and his wife, what happened to them? :)

massimilianogoi
14th May 2009, 12:22
The previous games introduced us to the ancient sect of The Keepers; the religious group known as The Order of the Hammer (The Hammerites): the Mechanists (The Order of the Gear) who were an offshoot of the Hammerites; and the nature-loving Pagans (The Order of the Vine).

We also enjoyed a host of main characters, creatures and entitities throughout the series.

Would you like to see any of these factions or characters return in T4? If so, who/what?

Ok!! Finally I can respond to this thread!! :) If I've got no problems of registrations, I would be the first to answer. :hmm:

So, my answer is : MECHANISTS COME BACK!!

I love them, and above all I love all the facilities they've done, along with the bot (combat,chatter box and spider). That is mechanist cameras, and those weird little cherubines that escapes running and screaming in that way so childish but inhuman too.

I liked alot the speeches and the original voices of the mechanists actors, the spells of the priests (they launched a firing gear) and their outfit.

Mechanists could head for a conspiracy in order to revenge of who made fall their leader, or they could do some corruption in the City, we all know theri technologies were a greedines for anyone who could permit it (i.e. Benny's witness: "I would like to have some of those mechanist lights, they never goes out"). :)

Flashart
14th May 2009, 13:44
Maybe a new faction could be "killing off" the remaining, weakened keepers.
I like the Hammers, they're nuts in a funny way.
However, "Diana, Larkspur, I needs speaks with you...." this could be very pivotal.
What if Viktoria sensing her probable demise, (after all she thought Garrett wasn't going to show) put part of her (a seed/ acorn etc) somewhere safe?
She could easily be reborn, using the time of TDS to regrow and strengthen.It's clean, and not exactly a massive leap of faith. I loved the dynamic between her and Garrett.

Viktoria CAN return!

Valis
14th May 2009, 18:26
Hammers, Pagans, City watch should all return back of course.. along with the mages trying to track down the last keepers and 'dispose' of them.

In the new game the baron (ruler of the city) should have much more of a precense (can't spell it :( ) and the war with the other city that was mentioned somewhere should be investigated more, like the ability to go to the other city as well, and the city guard should get some more firepower tbh, make it like some of the proffesional army is in the city also, knights for example .. =)

DF-HellFier
15th May 2009, 04:09
A little survey I've been make to help developers and concentrate all our character & location "Wishes" in T4: http://thiefvote.t35.com - All voter's have multiple options to choose and vote's to answer, but you can vote only once! So think what you want, and check boxes that you choosen...

Corvin25
15th May 2009, 08:26
Dian and Larkspur are the current leaders of the pagans now... and they are without their god or nymph.

What if one or both of them decided that in order to compete with the Builder... to preserve nature and carry out the Trickster's original vision for a perfect world... they would have to become immortal demigods themselves??

Planting trees and breaking buildings will only get you so far, after all...

ElizabethSterling
15th May 2009, 08:31
No mention of Lieutenant Mosely yet? Shame on you all! She was one of the least explored and yet most important characters in Thief 2.

kin
15th May 2009, 08:38
Whore faction!
sorry if ti has been mentioned

Corvin25
15th May 2009, 12:18
No mention of Lieutenant Mosely yet? Shame on you all! She was one of the least explored and yet most important characters in Thief 2.

Then how come none of us remembered her? ;)

.... just kidding. I agree. I would have liked to see more of her. Assuming she somehow regains her status as leader of the City Watch, perhaps she personally would rather not see Garrett busted and sent to Pavelock Prison, but if she is lenient on one thief, other criminals might become more bold.

1N54N3
19th May 2009, 03:01
So I was thinking today at work. I think a lot of us agree that the faction system is TDS was a great idea, but really under developed. I would of course like to see that change in T4. So here are some of the ideas I had:


Possible New Factions:

Kurshok - You know them from the Sunken Citidal in TDS. They were supposedly trapped when the Keepers put a glyph on the only door leading out of there. However, not only did Garret break that glyph, but there was also one of the Kurshok outside in a prison cell before you went there which makes us think the glyph wasn't the only way out. It seemed the only reason they really were ever hostile, was when they were defending their territory, the same way many of the human factions were.

Merchants - It would seem to make sense that the merchants (and fences) would mostly know each other, perhaps they could decide to not necessarily make their own "faction" but rather more of a coalition of sorts. Working together, and rewarding Garret for his services.

Library - Another one that wouldn't be so much of a faction, but an organization that could certainly have side work, and extra money/items for Garret as a reward for services rendered.

Undead - I know a lot of you will probably flame this one. I'm not real sure about this one myself, but these are just ideas after all. I was thinking perhaps some sort of Vampires maybe, or the regular Zombies but instead they have somehow found a way to partially regain some of their higher brain functions allowing them to work together, etc. It could lead to some interesting ideas and dialogue if it were done correctly, and if the other undead in hostile areas were unaffiliated (or in the case of vampires, a rival clan.)


Now, if EM actually does add new factions to T4 to make it a deeper world with more to do, I also believe that each of the factions should have multiple side quests for the player to do, if they wish to do so. This could range anywhere from (as examples) the Merchant's Guild hiring Garret to kill someone who has been cutting into their profits, or the Library telling Garret that there is a unique item in the next area he is going to that they want him to recover. Really, the possibilities are nearly endless. While some might say, "Well that is really unlikely that those people would be hiring Garret to work for them.", or "It is also really unlikely that Garret would help those people out.", that could be true, but isn't it also true of the existing factions now. Even after all of the horrible things Garret -has- done, the Hammerites and Pagans still work with Garret, not because they like him, but rather because they realize he is far more useful as an ally then an enemy. On the other side of the coin, Garret only works with the factions, because he knows they can help him get what he wants. So sure, maybe the Kurshok or the Undead wouldn't like Garret, but then again not many people do. I think EM could easily think up a lot of new factions, and really make them work quite well with the existing game world. Hopefully they will.

This brings me to my next and final point. In TDS there wasn't really any sort of "reward" for working with any of the factions. Sure, they'd help Garret by fighting any enemies he had, but that really didn't ever cut it for me, perhaps many of you feel the same way. I think each of the new factions should offer Garret access to a room once per day that has faction specific items, or maybe even loot as extra payment. As an example, the Pagans could offer him a couple of gas arrows and a gas bomb once per day. The Hammerites could offer Fire Arrows and a flash of Holy Water once per day. The Merchants could offer Rope Arrows...etc (yes I'm asking EM to bring them back :P). Or, perhaps merchants will sell more (or better) items as Garret does work for them. They could also offer a small discount instead. Anything is possible. I think this would be a way for the player to feel more rewarded for their work, and also make it more believable as to why Garret is helping them, without entirely breaking the game balance.

A couple more things I'd like to see would be civilians having random side quests for Garret. A pub owner wanting you to steal his competition's stash, a father wanting you to help his lost/trapped son, etc. Anything like this would further deepen the game world, which I think we can all agree would be awesome :)

Also. in T4, please make side quests actually have a real entry instead of being a "note". I think if players had an actual "Side Quests" section in the journal that it would help avoid confusion as opposed to the old notes that we had to dig through.

Anyway, I hope someone from EM reads this, and I thank anyone else who did. Thoughts? :P

WVI
19th May 2009, 04:49
I'd certainly love to see more sidequests and simple houses to break in to. One thing's for sure, though - if there's an undead faction, no way am I allying with them. The undead never fail to freak me out no matter when they appear. >_>

A little criticism I have with the current faction system - often you might blackjack a Hammer and not realize it's a Hammer until too late. Fine, sure, but the faction points taken away is massive. I'd say tone that down a bit.

MasterTaffer
19th May 2009, 05:07
I would not mind more peripheral thefts to participate in in between missions, like the Oren Cross Dagger "Caper." I do not want to see any of the stupid chores the factions send you on for favors. Being the highly disciplined loner Garrett is, it seemed very contradictory to his character that he gave a crap about any of the factions wanting his head on a pike.

And for the love of the Builder, Trickster and Watcher, no more Kurshoks please! I beg you!

WVI
19th May 2009, 05:08
...And if there's one thing almost as freaky as the undead, it's the Kurshoks.

Thieffanman
19th May 2009, 05:54
Re: Factions-- on another thread, I started a mention about possible female Hammerites; possibly warrior nuns :). They could be a regular part of the church . . .

Or a schism, much like the Mechanists in TMA. If a new faction were to start up, why not possibly entertain the idea of a sect of Hammerite warrior nuns. Maybe, "The Builder's Daughters", "Sisters Of The Hammer", or something like that :).

--Thieffanman

1N54N3
19th May 2009, 05:57
If a new faction were to start up, why not possibly entertain the idea of a sect of Hammerite warrior nuns. Maybe, "The Builder's Daughters", "Sisters Of The Hammer", or something like that :).

--Thieffanman

I like that idea a lot, it'd be quite hilarious some of the dialogue you'd hear when they talked about each other as well I'm sure lol.

1N54N3
20th May 2009, 01:23
Another thought I had too, is that EM could actually have alternative factions. Say a "good" and an "evil" to each side. Such factions would be mutually exclusive wherein, if you befriended one, you lost faction with the other. This would create more of a moral choice, and possibly add a little bit of replay value to the game as well.

WVI
20th May 2009, 01:28
Ah, you're thinking of something like the standard character alignment system(say, if Hammers equate to Lawful and Pagans equate to Chaotic).

Zahr Dalsk
20th May 2009, 02:34
New factions are fine, as long as the core Hammerites and Pagans remain. (And I'd love to see the Mechanists return; they're just about the only advanced technology faction in a game that hasn't ruined the medieval feel.)

Ravenwood
21st May 2009, 03:28
I hope Benny returns! :D

Everyone wants Benny to return. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

He's so dang loveable.

Ravenwood
21st May 2009, 03:30
Also, though I want more Pagan Faction story, I think itd be interesting to dig deeper into the faction of those Mages.

1N54N3
21st May 2009, 05:52
Any chance of this getting stickied to make sure the Devs get a read or two on it? :)

xDarknessFallsx
21st May 2009, 06:00
I would like a mix of the ones in T2, with a lean toward the Hammerites and Mechanists more than Keepers and Pagans.

1N54N3
21st May 2009, 10:01
Keep the ideas coming people. The more the better I'd say, as hopefully EM will maybe try to include some :)

Maethius
22nd May 2009, 15:26
I don't mind the idea of a faction system, actually, just how it is implemented. I think you could build up faction with the Hammers, but if you blackjack one or even kill one without a witness then it should not count against you! One thing about faction is that it removes some of the thrill of play for me... okay, now I can walk by them and just lost a major opportunity for stealth and guile. I think it would be more likely that you could earn faction with individuals in a group, and in that way you keep the threat level high (which is what we define as "adventure").

Slickleg
22nd May 2009, 17:05
Downwind Thieves' Guild

Speaking of this... I can't remember if this has already been done in a previous game or not (and I'm sure someone will correct me), but what about a level where you have to compete with another thief? Maybe something where you have to get the loot before he does or take him out before he takes out you. It might add a bit more urgency to a level rather than the 'take as much time as you need' feeling of most. I imagine it would be a bit like that 'Thievery' UT mod that was made way back (which I thought was cool).

This ideas probably been thrown around a lot before but it could be fun.

HellionKal
22nd May 2009, 19:14
Speaking of this... I can't remember if this has already been done in a previous game or not (and I'm sure someone will correct me), but what about a level where you have to compete with another thief?

Apart from inadvertently running into rival thieves while on the rooftops during "Life of the Party", or a mission in THIEF GOLD where you break into a local Thieves Guild, I don't think anything exactly like what you propose has been done yet.

If done properly it would be a rather interesting idea, although since I usually take my time in all missions the notion of having to race against time in a mission feels a bit "meh".

1N54N3
22nd May 2009, 19:38
They could build the level in such a way that it could feel like you have competition, but not be a timed thing. That would probably be for the best, because it would cater to all play styles. I like the idea though :)

Zephyr
22nd May 2009, 22:37
Hopefully rivalry between Hammerites and Pagans remain. It is one of the main aspects of the series.

huzi73
23rd May 2009, 10:16
Ah, you're thinking of something like the standard character alignment system(say, if Hammers equate to Lawful and Pagans equate to Chaotic).

well,more like:
hammers=lawful,yet overzealous,selfrighteous,center/left wing,fanatics(who tend to favour basic tecnology)
pagans=chaotic,mystic,tree hugging,primative,tree hugging,animalistic,extreme right wing(who tend to favour nature)
mechanists=ideological,advanced,extreme left wing,opressive(moreso than the hammers)(who are practically based on futuristic technology)

hexhunter
23rd May 2009, 17:52
They could build the level in such a way that it could feel like you have competition, but not be a timed thing. That would probably be for the best, because it would cater to all play styles. I like the idea though :)

Maybe if there was a time limit, offscreen of course, but you could delay your rival or even steal it from his stash if you were too late. Faction points should be more effected by big things like saving a Hammer priest from Pagan assassins, or stealing something a Warden wants on the side of your mission, maybe stealing evidence from the Watch to save a fellow Thief. It's a good way to keep reusing the same maps with only minor changes.

Two of my own factions and thoughts on a couple of others:

Order of the Sun
Livers they in dry places
Far across land of East
Story only thems know
But tick and tock do prevail
Elfman of halberd and of bull
God of time lived long ago

Order of the Moon
Livers they in wet places
Far across sea of West
Once they did hide
But now they enslave
Elfman of blade and of bolt
God of dust lived long ago

Hammerites - Order of the Hammer - Like they were but with more inspectors and knights
Pagans - Order of the Vine - Like in DS with more shamans, warriors and beasts
Mechanists - Order of the Gear - Rich cultists and inventors (Capezza (http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Capezza,_Cid), our own Da Vinci) who need custom, more powerful than we know
Kurshok - Order of the Crown - A resurgence trying to restore the crown to its thrown and fend off invaders
Keepers - Order of the Key - A remnant using basic tactics to keep the balance, without glyphs or prophecy to help
Souls - Order of the Sand - Ancient mystery sect, somehow still using animation and door glyphs, experiments with time

I'm suprised that nobody here has mentioned the souls, on TTLG many fans have said that they felt they were better than the keepers turned out in TDS. Though I don't know him well, I think DrK would be happy to let EM develop the idea, surely any fan would jump at the chance to have their ideas in an official Thief game.

-- Deus X Machina

huzi73
23rd May 2009, 18:06
Maybe if there was a time limit, offscreen of course, but you could delay your rival or even steal it from his stash if you were too late. Faction points should be more effected by big things like saving a Hammer priest from Pagan assassins, or stealing something a Warden wants on the side of your mission, maybe stealing evidence from the Watch to save a fellow Thief. It's a good way to keep reusing the same maps with only minor changes.

Two of my own factions and thoughts on a couple of others:

Order of the Sun
Livers they in dry places
Far across land of East
Story only thems know
But tick and tock do prevail
Elfman of halberd and of bull
God of time lived long ago

Order of the Moon
Livers they in wet places
Far across sea of West
Once they did hide
But now they enslave
Elfman of blade and of bolt
God of dust lived long ago

Hammerites - Order of the Hammer - Like they were but with more inspectors and knights
Pagans - Order of the Vine - Like in DS with more shamans, warriors and beasts
Mechanists - Order of the Gear - Rich cultists and inventors (Capezza (http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Capezza,_Cid), our own Da Vinci) who need custom, more powerful than we know
Kurshok - Order of the Crown - A resurgence trying to restore the crown to its thrown and fend off invaders
Keepers - Order of the Key - A remnant using basic tactics to keep the balance, without glyphs or prophecy to help
Souls - Order of the Sand - Ancient mystery sect, somehow still using animation and door glyphs, experiments with time

I'm suprised that nobody here has mentioned the souls, on TTLG many fans have said that they felt they were better than the keepers turned out in TDS. Though I don't know him well, I think DrK would be happy to let EM develop the idea, surely any fan would jump at the chance to have their ideas in an official Thief game.

-- Deus X Machina

The souls?!Cool,please enlighten manfools such as myself.What exactly are the souls

hexhunter
23rd May 2009, 18:51
Happy to, http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1814495#post1814495

There are alot of large pics on this link BTW. It includes decently revealing reiews on all 3 of the Rocksbourg series, so if you want to play it I'd advise you download it first. There's alot of praise for these missions in the Fan Mission playing community...

TheEye
6th Jul 2009, 11:10
i don't know... a new faction could be the thieves' guild (a different one from the one garret hates) and YES definitely more sidequests

gryphos
7th Jul 2009, 21:34
As I see it, the untapped commodity in the series so far, is the "noble" houses. We focused on Pagans, Hammers vis-a-vis the Mechanist schism, and Keepers. Now the strong factions would be the nobles - to include the appropriate city Wardens (crime bosses) who are interested in how to exploit the Baron's absence, and how to insure he remains absent. Something rotten in Denmark... treacherous in Venice comes to mind. This is the perfect stuff for steampunk noir.

The best mysteries are ones that remain in some part still unanswered. The Baron should remain in some part, a puzzle. However, as has been mentioned, he is a very good candidate for a major plot mover in T4. He's been off to war with Blackbrook (over what? and with whom? That is, is Blackbrook ruled by another "Baron"? Or a "Duke"? OR a prince or king? Is this a civil war in a larger empire?) There are several interesting possibilities that would not so much provide plot for the tight microcosm of the City, as motivation for this mysterious character to leave and to come back.

jtr7
7th Jul 2009, 21:45
.....................

gryphos
8th Jul 2009, 22:27
Sure. I think that foreign necromancers would be a perfect distraction for an Illuminati minded Noble or city Warden. They are unpleasant enough, and scary enough to draw lots of attention.

I'm thinking about the marvelous plotting in pieces like "The Maltese Falcon" as inspiration for the sort of story and villainy that you can now find in the City. Take that style plot, shone through a steampunk lense with a bit of magic and you have something like what I'd love to see.

Riffing on posts from other threads, if the Baron was away on bigger Kingdom/Empire type business and the city Wardens (who may very well be Nobles) had suborned the regent or steward to keep sending bum reports to keep the Baron comfortable being away from home while the Noble Wardens are given a free hand, then you have potentially lots of factions with each noble with his own private militia out on gang wars to get to the top of the pecking order in hopes of usurping the crown.

And then there's Garret. I don't think you can ignore what has happened in the arc of the three games to say that he hasn't undergone some dramatic change. The essence of the character is a cynic who grew up in the street and as such put making the big score his life priority. However, he obviously is deeper than just a selfish thug since he could have skinned out when things got too hairy in any of the three games, but instead chose to stay and get involved (albeit by his own rules). He would never admit it I don't think, but he does care about more than himself or he wouldn't risk his life facing down City destroying villains. Also, his code of honor in at least the first two includes as a matter of pride, and as a moral judgement, not to be a murdering thug (this was kind of waved aside in T3, but I'd have to go on the balance of evidence in this case). So, anyway, now that he is the True Keeper and the only one who has the power to cloud men's minds anymore (suggested at the end of T3), and as he has obviously chosen to introduce the girl to the larger reality rather than beating her or buying her off to keep her in the dark, I think that his priorities are likely to begin moving beyond mere loot. I don't see this changing the way he operates much (still the lone wolf, still the consumate sneak) but it does suggest some motivations that may put him willingly into a different arena, i.e. the political.

jtr7
8th Jul 2009, 22:43
.......................

gryphos
9th Jul 2009, 20:14
I didn't know that but I'm not surprised about The Maltese Falcon thing. You really do have quite a library of gamelore in your head, huh?

I do think that the Steward becoming enamored of power is well within the hard boiled plotting arena. I kind of think that if the Baron is off, presumably with most of his army, then that leaves the City Watch to fill those shoes for the Steward with possibly the exception of some elite palace guard. And if you have a host of other small private militias (the City Warden's gangs) to contend with, then you can either try to confront them or curry them into your service to counter the rest. I see the Steward (assuming he exists) as one of a host of rogues in public alliance but ready to sell each other out at a moment like Maltese Falcon or Casablanca. I'm not sure that the Steward even has the level of nobility of intention of Denethor (of the books - not the films which I think got him wrong)... Tolkien didn't look through the same lenses that Hammet did! ;)

>>Agreed about Garrett, but he has no leadership skills, nor people skills in general.

True. He is really very specialized in his skillset. He's clearly embraced being a Keeper (whatever that means now since he calls himself one for the first time in three games). So to cover both gameplay needs and story development, the question becomes "what DOES it mean to be a Keeper now?" And even though he is the True Keeper, that doesn't mean he necessarily is the practical leader. Would he round up Artemis and that cabal to rebuild and redefine what the Keepers are, or just leave it hanging out to dry in the dawn of the Unwritten Times?

>>I've mentioned before that this girl would not be the first he's come across, and he wasn't even hidden when she saw him.

Hmmm... I got the impression from the final cutscene that he was hidden since it exactly mirrored the first cutscene of T1. He says "You've got talent. It's no easy thing to see a Keeper. Especially one who does not wish to be seen." Also, I have not found your discussion on other girls he's come across... what is the gist if I may ask?

jtr7
10th Jul 2009, 00:44
.........................

Hamadriyad
10th Jul 2009, 13:20
Hmm...New factions. How about these:
-Finders
-Order of the Anvil. :D
Hey, I found a title: Thief IV: Between the Hammer and the Anvil.:D

smalljil
10th Jul 2009, 14:05
how about the society of shadows, that sounds like a cool thief association.:p

Hamadriyad
10th Jul 2009, 14:07
how about the society of shadows, that sounds like a cool thief association.:p

Sounds like "the circle of stone and shadow." :)

Hamadriyad
10th Jul 2009, 17:02
Yeah, the end cutscene is a bookend, but there are significant twists to how it plays out. The Keeper recruited Garrett, asked him his name. The girl just gave him the puppy-dog eyes.





In the first briefing, Garrett's intro, the Keeper he sees is standing in broad daylight unseen. Garrett could never do that, and Garrett was practically non-Keeperish, but had skills of reading, observing, and information gathering through voyeurism, eavesdropping, and personal writings.

If I understand correct ,you say Artemus wasn't hiding in the shadows when Garrett saw him.


Garrett would never take a person in. She's not the only child living on the streets, and Garrett wasn't even hiding when she saw him.


http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/UrchinGirl.jpg


Same thing here. You say, Garrett wasn't hiding when she saw him.
If this happened before ending, I would say that's not important. Because just keepers can stay unseen even in daylight, and Garrett never accept himself as a keeper... until the end of TDS
He has been marked, he called himself a Keeper. Because of this If he wants, he can stay unseen even in daylight,(and he said that he want it, so at this moment he was unseen actually [though we can see him]Besides, there is no daylight here, there is a heavy fog.)
So, the girl can't be ignored.

dr_explodoh
10th Jul 2009, 17:28
hammers and pagans are a must. I would definetly enjoy a new faction. Maybe another opposing thieves guild. That could make things interesting!

Platinumoxicity
10th Jul 2009, 17:34
Same thing here. You say, Garrett wasn't hiding when she saw him.
If this happened before ending, I would say that's not important. Because just keepers can stay unseen even in daylight, and Garrett never accept himself as a keeper... until the end of TDS
He has been marked, he called himself a Keeper. Because of this If he wants, he can stay unseen even in daylight,(and he said that he want it, so at this moment he was unseen actually [though we can see him]Besides, there is no daylight here, there is a heavy fog.)
So, the girl can't be ignored.

The marking probably doesn't mean that he has changed into anything. It appeared when he activated the final glyph and completed the last prophecy that ended his duties, every other keeper's duties and the glyphs. If the keeper powers are gone, then how do you figure that activating a glyph that removes all the glyphs and powers somehow gives Garrett some special powers? And don't you agree that giving Garrett some special power that allows him to not be seen kinda contradicts the basic idea of the game?

And keepers don't have a magical power that makes them invisible. They have a carefully designed outlook and behavior patterns that give them the ability to not stick out of the crowd and the power to be forgotten in a split second after meeting them. It's a human psychological phenomenon. Some things can be designed in a way that the human mind can't register them into the memory and it works almost like an invisibility cloak. I would know since I have that power in real life. ;)

Hamadriyad
10th Jul 2009, 19:01
Congratulations then.;)

I didn't mention any super powers and of course I can't accept something like magical Garrett.
But
How can you explain that Garrett has not ability to be unseen in daylight although he has a keeper training?
He left the Keepers before his training has been complete? No.

So, I think there is something in Garrett's mind, he never wanted to be a keeper. This is psychological.
When he has been marked, this psychological barrier left Garrett.(I don't mean mark has magical powers and suddenly changed Garrett,I mean this moment is final recognize moment.) And keeper training started to work completely. (But of course Garrett will not do keeperish things with his own will.He can say:Yes I am a keeper, so what?It doesn't mean I can't steal.:D)

But
If we think that way, sneak in the shadows point will become pointless. If there wouldn't be a Thief 4 we can think that way.But there is.(or there will be, I hope.)
I don't say this is what happened.Just I tried to explain without magical powers. Maybe I talked nonsense. If you have a better explanation, I want to hear.:)

tarhiel
10th Jul 2009, 23:30
Mechanists are gone, that is for sure. I would like to see back Hammerites nad pagans, but please, no return of Trickster, Mechanists, or Keepers. They are all out now!!!

Somebody, something new, but it has to fit with game. What that would be, I will leave to developers.

Hamadriyad
11th Jul 2009, 08:36
Mechanists are gone, that is for sure. I would like to see back Hammerites nad pagans, but please, no return of Trickster, Mechanists, or Keepers. They are all out now!!!

Somebody, something new, but it has to fit with game. What that would be, I will leave to developers.

%100 agreed.

esme
11th Jul 2009, 10:13
...And keepers don't have a magical power that makes them invisible. They have a carefully designed outlook and behavior patterns that give them the ability to not stick out of the crowd and the power to be forgotten in a split second after meeting them...they are the men in black

jtr7
11th Jul 2009, 10:24
.....................

FriendlyStranger
11th Jul 2009, 10:35
Mechanists are gone, that is for sure. I would like to see back Hammerites nad pagans, but please, no return of Trickster, Mechanists, or Keepers. They are all out now!!!

Somebody, something new, but it has to fit with game. What that would be, I will leave to developers.

They are about as much gone as Nazis were after the downfall of Hitler and the 3rd Reich.

They are about as much gone as Kommunists after the break-up of the Sowjet Union.

They are about as much gone as any association, movement in history.
---

Want to say: Something/Someone always stays behind - hatred and agitation based on certain ideas never fully disappears --> It not only does not disappear, instead even the opposite is the case: Take the right-extremist example: In many European countries we today see a rise of neo-nazi ideology or methods. We have the Vlaams Blok (Vlaams Belang) in Belgium, the NPD in Germany, Jobbik in Hungaria - lately it was heard we have organzied oppression, dissipations of "gypsi"/Romanian people in Italy and Hungaria, people even got murdered - all in the year of 2009, more than 60 years after Hitler.

I'm a little concerned about these things since I'm Israeli, but now, after these examples, please tell me, why should the Mechanists fanatics suddenly stop persuing their ideas of genocide? (And plz spare me "cause Thief world is magic")

Platinumoxicity
11th Jul 2009, 10:38
So, I think there is something in Garrett's mind, he never wanted to be a keeper. This is psychological.
When he has been marked, this psychological barrier left Garrett.(I don't mean mark has magical powers and suddenly changed Garrett,I mean this moment is final recognize moment.) And keeper training started to work completely. (But of course Garrett will not do keeperish things with his own will.He can say:Yes I am a keeper, so what?It doesn't mean I can't steal.:D)


That's so cruel. :( It's as if and indestructible hero that everyone's grown to love suddenly faced an evil God that took control over his magnificent and stubborn mind. It's the most unfair event that would ever happen to Garrett. One of the best and strongest characteristics in Garrett is his strong and stubborn mind that requires more than just a forest demon ripping out his eye to change, and now some stupid little glyph has taken control of this beautiful mind and changed it into something uninteresting and lame? A horrible fate for Garrett indeed. Now I get it why Garrett hated the prophecies and the keepers for so long. :mad:

Platinumoxicity
11th Jul 2009, 10:42
Standing a couple of feet from a wall in sunlight while people just pass them by like they weren't there.

I don't think that people "passed them" in a "walked through them" sense like they weren't there. I know that that skill is possible in real life, it just takes a very specific individual to be able to do that, and another kind of special individual to see through it.

smalljil
11th Jul 2009, 10:48
They are about as much gone as Nazis were after the downfall of Hitler and the 3rd Reich.

They are about as much gone as Kommunists after the break-up of the Sowjet Union.

They are about as much gone as any association, movement in history.
---

Want to say: Something/Someone always stays behind - hatred and agitation based on certain ideas never fully disappears --> It not only does not disappear, instead even the opposite is the case: Take the right-extremist example: In many European countries we today see a rise of neo-nazi ideology or methods. We have the Vlaams Blok (Vlaams Belang) in Belgium, the NPD in Germany, Jobbik in Hungaria - lately it was heard we have organzied oppression, dissipations of "gypsi"/Romanian people in Italy and Hungaria, people even got murdered - all in the year of 2009, more than 60 years after Hitler.

I'm a little concerned about these things since I'm Israeli, but now, after these examples, please tell me, why should the Mechanists fanatics suddenly stop persuing their ideas of genocide? (And plz spare me "cause Thief world is magic")

i read what you are saying, but can't we push a historical experience aside for a better/more entertaining story which is concistant with itselves? its a game you know, no hisitory simulation.

jtr7
11th Jul 2009, 11:06
....................

Platinumoxicity
11th Jul 2009, 11:11
i read what you are saying, but can't we push a historical experience aside for a better/more entertaining story which is concistant with itselves? its a game you know, no hisitory simulation.

People like to pick and choose the bits of story they like and try to hang on to them no matter what. Some of it can work, but only some minor bits can be ignored. It's a different matter to suddenly bring back Viktoria, Mechanists, Keepers or the Trickster. It wouldn't make sense in any context.

Something minor can be changed, because nobody will even notice that something has changed or something's missing, or mostly just won't care. For example, the City can be entirely different from earlier games, just like it's always been different, it keeps the mystery intact and nobody will care. The statues that froze where they stood in TDS all over the City will be gone and nobody will notice. Garrett's face will be different once again and nobody will care that he looks different again. The girl in the end of TDS can be completely ignored and most people won't care or even notice that she's not there, because they'll be too amazed by being able to play as Garrett again.

Hamadriyad
11th Jul 2009, 11:20
That's so cruel. :( It's as if and indestructible hero that everyone's grown to love suddenly faced an evil God that took control over his magnificent and stubborn mind. It's the most unfair event that would ever happen to Garrett. One of the best and strongest characteristics in Garrett is his strong and stubborn mind that requires more than just a forest demon ripping out his eye to change, and now some stupid little glyph has taken control of this beautiful mind and changed it into something uninteresting and lame? A horrible fate for Garrett indeed. Now I get it why Garrett hated the prophecies and the keepers for so long. :mad:

You so stick your idea that "Garrett isn't change, he shouldn't, he is my stubborn antihero." But he is different than before now.Agree or not.
I tried to explain something. I ask you again:
How can you explain that Garrett has not ability to be unseen in daylight although he has a keeper training?

FriendlyStranger
11th Jul 2009, 11:22
I want to see Neo-Mechs (and whenever I say that I always have Neo-Nazis in mind), but they don't have the technology, and they would have to be a secret society, because they themselves would be hunted down by Hammerites and Pagans both, with the Hammerites even more so. There's no more rust-gas, so they would have to do things like sneak into Pagan villages and poison their water, salt their crops, or attack in numbers enough to overwhelm the Pagans or stick to small villages. But of course, they'd really have to make their attacks count, no matter how the Pagans are on alert and on guard. The Mechanists struck Beck o' the Wills without warning. The Neo-Mechs wouldn't have that luxury, and they would be as embarrassing as Neo-Nazis, or the Ku Klux Klan are today. Unless they invent a way to sustain their food and equipment supplies, they need to make a living. They wouldn't be filling cringing nobles' homes and businesses with gadgets and having gold flowing their way. They wouldn't have all the mining operations running to keep them in ore. They wouldn't have their soot-spewing factories. It would be comparatively small, underground, and hidden.

They would also have to be more like today's terrorists, willingly destroying themselves to take out their enemies en masse. As much as they hate the Pagans, they would be heretics to Karras's cause, and the supposed will of The Builder, if they don't despise their own flesh and long for Purification themselves.


And that basically was my idea from the beginning, it was what I was trying to communicate all the way up here - noone ever talked about the full scale return of the Mechanists. Altough I plead for them having somekind of high tech, since there is no logical explanation for why they suddenly lose every kind of knowledge. But luckily, we achieved somekind of consensual point now.

And btw off-topic, but it is peronally important to me: Many people don't think neo-nazi to be embarrassing, they have a not too small backing in the population of many countries!

jtr7
11th Jul 2009, 11:22
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Platinumoxicity
11th Jul 2009, 11:27
How can you explain that Garrett has not ability to be unseen in daylight although he has a keeper training?

Because the keepers don't really have that "magic power". They have carefully crafted behavior patterns and unsuspicious outlook when they move in the City during the day. It's called "Forgettability". I works like a mind erase, the human mind is unable to register "forgettable" people into the memory. This is how they give the impression of being invisible. It really works in real life. Only people who are extremely observant can see that a person is like that, thus being able to see past the facadé.

jtr7
11th Jul 2009, 11:31
.......................

Hamadriyad
11th Jul 2009, 11:35
QUOTE/Because the keepers don't really have that "magic power". They have carefully crafted behavior patterns and unsuspicious outlook when they move in the City during the day. It's called "Forgettability". I works like a mind erase, the human mind is unable to register "forgettable" people into the memory. This is how they give the impression of being invisible. It really works in real life. Only people who are extremely observant can see that a person is like that, thus being able to see past the facadé./QUOTE




And keepers didn't teach to Garrett in the training how they do that?
Yeah it's really sensible.

Platinumoxicity
11th Jul 2009, 11:44
And Garrett really really sucks at it.
And entire buildings don't disappear that way.
And the Keepers use Glyphs as part of daily living, so... not a stretch in that world. Do they not cast invisibility on each other in TDS, which Garrett can intercept?

Yeah, it's not entirely natural, but it's not entirely invisibility either. The people of the City need to be able to see the buildings so that they don't bump into them or accidentally try to build something instead of the building. The magic is more about forgetting or ignoring, not invisibility. And BTW, the invisibility that the keepers cast on eachother, it makes them more visible than normally, because they glow in white. :D



And keepers didn't teach to Garrett in the training how they do that?
Yeah it's really sensible.

Maybe the skill just doesn't work on individuals that are actively being searched. Garrett is a wanted man, a normal citizen with and abnoral reputation. Nobody doesn't even think of wanting to see the keepers because nobody knows that they exist.

jtr7
11th Jul 2009, 11:46
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kabatta
11th Jul 2009, 12:21
I think the glyph initiation was just an excuse to introduce the glyph doors and powers later on.

Burrick
11th Jul 2009, 13:01
hi pals, excuse my english but I will do my best to provide you with the Burrick's view on stuff.

my idea - altough I did'nt quite like the metal age as much as I did love Deadly Shadows, I would like to see some of this robot things and cameras to return. I found that techno stuff mind-blowing. So maybe we could get a robot group "Children Of The Builder" or something like it.

also a thief guild or something like it could be mucho coolio.

and as for returning factions, I of course need the hammers, the mechanics and the keepers. I loved every single one of them.

Hamadriyad
11th Jul 2009, 14:11
Maybe the skill just doesn't work on individuals that are actively being searched. Garrett is a wanted man, a normal citizen with and abnoral reputation. Nobody doesn't even think of wanting to see the keepers because nobody knows that they exist.

Garrett is not actively being searched in every moment. Garrett gets in a mansion, guards doesn't know that, servants doesn't know that; so who will search who?
If there is a skill like you mentioned,If it is completely natural and isn't depend on any magic/glyph, Garrett should own it.

JohnnyB_©
11th Jul 2009, 19:44
How about an offshoot Pagans group in the same manner like the Mechanists of TMA?

Say a group of Pagans that are influenced by Necromancy or something.

Hamadriyad
11th Jul 2009, 19:59
How about an offshoot Pagans group in the same manner like the Mechanists of TMA?

Say a group of Pagans that are influenced by Necromancy or something.

Maybe but that means corrupted pagans. We already dealed with corrupted pagans in TDP.

jtr7
12th Jul 2009, 00:22
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Platinumoxicity
12th Jul 2009, 10:38
Garrett is not actively being searched in every moment. Garrett gets in a mansion, guards doesn't know that, servants doesn't know that; so who will search who?
If there is a skill like you mentioned,If it is completely natural and isn't depend on any magic/glyph, Garrett should own it.

I guess you're right about that. Except that Garrett looks quite suspicious with all that gear and the eye, so naturally it wouldn't work without glyph magic. But anyways, the glyphs were gone before that scene started where Garrett "didn't wish to be seen" so he couldn't use the power anyways if it was in fact keeper magic. ;)

FriendlyStranger
12th Jul 2009, 12:32
hi pals, excuse my english but I will do my best to provide you with the Burrick's view on stuff.

my idea - altough I did'nt quite like the metal age as much as I did love Deadly Shadows, I would like to see some of this robot things and cameras to return. I found that techno stuff mind-blowing. So maybe we could get a robot group "Children Of The Builder" or something like it.

also a thief guild or something like it could be mucho coolio.

and as for returning factions, I of course need the hammers, the mechanics and the keepers. I loved every single one of them.

How can you like TDS better than TMA??? But nontheless I also thought about something similar to a robot faction. The remnants of Karras children building up a base, developing somekind of leader robot with some artifical intelligence.

Keeper Gurgul
12th Jul 2009, 13:10
Bearing in mind that the Mechanists had some outposts outside the City limits, like Markham's Island or the KD Site, there's a possibility that some of them reamained as concealed, but active members of the order, and were able to hide some of their superior tech within these hideouts. I, personally, would gladly revisit The Lost City, witness the return of the wildlife and monsters to the abandoned Mechanist digsite, and explore new, uncharted portions of the ruins. Maybe there could be an episode when the Mechanist Remnants or the Hand Brotherhood decide to pay another visit to the Lost City, searching for something they had discovered during the course of previous games, but din't get a chance to explore it further. Imagine them, battling with the stray Elementals and monsters, falling victims to traps and dangerous terrain, some of them slipping into madness and panic, just to finally discover that their precious objective was stolen moments ago by the player (cruel isn't it?) :) It would be very climatic to include a "Lovecraftian-inspired" story within the game, in the spirit of The Lost City or The Kurshok Citadel.

Hamadriyad
12th Jul 2009, 16:14
I guess you're right about that. Except that Garrett looks quite suspicious with all that gear and the eye, so naturally it wouldn't work without glyph magic. But anyways, the glyphs were gone before that scene started where Garrett "didn't wish to be seen" so he couldn't use the power anyways if it was in fact keeper magic. ;)

Yes, glyphs are gone, you are right. But I don't want to believe that is just a reference to beginning of TDP.If Garrett said "It is no easy thing to... see a Keeper. Especially one who does not wish to be seen." that means he has this ability.
Maybe key mark is really magical, not same of glyphs, but the mark of One True Keeper, it may give him keeper ability. I don't know. Is it nonsense?
Even If it is logical, there is a problem: If Garrett took that ability in the end of TDS, he should use that Thief IV,but this will harm to the game. You can walk under electric lights and no one see you, or they ignore and forget you.
I don't know, I am stuck. maybe we just should ignore that phrase.
Help me jtr7! :D

FriendlyStranger
12th Jul 2009, 17:57
Bearing in mind that the Mechanists had some outposts outside the City limits, like Markham's Island or the KD Site, there's a possibility that some of them reamained as concealed, but active members of the order, and were able to hide some of their superior tech within these hideouts. I, personally, would gladly revisit The Lost City, witness the return of the wildlife and monsters to the abandoned Mechanist digsite, and explore new, uncharted portions of the ruins. Maybe there could be an episode when the Mechanist Remnants or the Hand Brotherhood decide to pay another visit to the Lost City, searching for something they had discovered during the course of previous games, but din't get a chance to explore it further. Imagine them, battling with the stray Elementals and monsters, falling victims to traps and dangerous terrain, some of them slipping into madness and panic, just to finally discover that their precious objective was stolen moments ago by the player (cruel isn't it?) :) It would be very climatic to include a "Lovecraftian-inspired" story within the game, in the spirit of The Lost City or The Kurshok Citadel.

Yeah a revisit to Markham Isle the Cetus Amicus as a last ressort for the remaining Mechanist forces could be very cool, maybe they continued to gather artifacts from the Lost City and developed something new, something valuable... ^^

Platinumoxicity
12th Jul 2009, 18:16
Even If it is logical, there is a problem: If Garrett took that ability in the end of TDS, he should use that Thief IV,but this will harm to the game. You can walk under electric lights and no one see you, or they ignore and forget you.
I don't know, I am stuck. maybe we just should ignore that phrase.
Help me jtr7! :D

Yeah, this is one of the cases of overly sticking to everything that has happened, which creates boundries that the devs of the sequel have to base the design on. Good gameplay and good story is always better than overly continuos and logical story. When you stick too tightly to everything that has happened before and don't allow any changes, the gameplay or the quality of the story might take a hit, like in this case. But if you ignore small details for the sake of making better gameplay or better story, nobody will even notice because it's better that way anyway. Holding on to previous things too tightly doesn't give us anything, but it does create unnecessary boundries for the devs.

Examples:
Bring back Viktoria=WTF?
Don't allow the extinction of the keeper order=Same old boring stuff.
Make Garrett have super keeper powers=Destroy Garrett, destroy Thief.
Make a whole faction disappear without a slightest trace=It's like the Mechanists never existed? (Same reaction if the keepers disappear without a trace.)

Hamadriyad
12th Jul 2009, 18:36
Yeah, this is one of the cases of overly sticking to everything that has happened, which creates boundries that the devs of the sequel have to base the design on. Good gameplay and good story is always better than overly continuos and logical story. When you stick too tightly to everything that has happened before and don't allow any changes, the gameplay or the quality of the story might take a hit, like in this case. But if you ignore small details for the sake of making better gameplay or better story, nobody will even notice because it's better that way anyway. Holding on to previous things too tightly doesn't give us anything, but it does create unnecessary boundries for the devs.

Examples:
Bring back Viktoria=WTF?
Don't allow the extinction of the keeper order=Same old boring stuff.
Make Garrett have super keeper powers=Destroy Garrett, destroy Thief.
Make a whole faction disappear without a slightest trace=It's like the Mechanists never existed? (Same reaction if the keepers disappear without a trace.)

I agree.

(Uhm... What do you think about my explanation? Logical or not?
And one more thing: what does "If I never see another glyph again, it’ll be too soon. " mean? I can't give a meaning to that.)

Platinumoxicity
12th Jul 2009, 19:21
I agree.

(Uhm... What do you think about my explanation? Logical or not?
And one more thing: what does "If I never see another glyph again, it’ll be too soon. " mean? I can't give a meaning to that.)

What is your explanation exactly? And about what?

On the other question, "If I never see another glyph again, it’ll be too soon. " I figured that Garrett had learned that the final Glyph was the failsafe glyph that destroys all previous glyphs. Since TDP, Garrett had always hated the way the keepers and their prophecies were trying to control his life, (TDP ending cutscene, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGZA-KDy87Q) conversation at 2:10) Now Garrett had his wish and all of that went away. Then he had the opportunity of saying a badass punchline, like he usually does. ;)

Hamadriyad
12th Jul 2009, 19:36
Ah,I get it, thanks. :)


What is your explanation exactly? And about what?


İt was about ability to be unseen without using glyph.

Here:



Maybe key mark is really magical, not same of glyphs, but the mark of One True Keeper, it may give him keeper ability. I don't know. Is it nonsense?


I don't like that so much actually but I couldn't think another way. :D

Platinumoxicity
12th Jul 2009, 19:58
Maybe key mark is really magical, not same of glyphs, but the mark of One True Keeper, it may give him keeper ability. I don't know. Is it nonsense?
I don't like that so much actually but I couldn't think another way.

It would make sense without these points:
-Garrett was written to be the true keeper all the way from the very beginning, he didn't become anything when he activated the final glyph. (BTW, how come some people even think like this? It never crossed my mind because there was nothing indicating that)
-Garrett's true keeper status made him activate the final glyph, because it was written. It's activation marked the one who used it in the process with a key symbol. It wasn't the other way around that the one activating the final glyph became the true keeper, thus being marked with the key symbol.
-The activation of the final glyph most likely took away everything that the keepers had used in their "business". That included all the magic that came from the glyphs and all the writings and prophecies that existed because of those glyphs. So, if the keepers had a special magical ability, it's gone now and even Garrett can't use it because he's not any different from the keepers in a "keeper"-sense*.

* Garrett is just as much a keeper as any other keeper is. The meaning of the one true keeper is that Garrett was able to make the prophecies come true, unlike the regular keepers who could only sit on their hands and observe. The title has no other meaning.

jtr7
12th Jul 2009, 21:45
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Platinumoxicity
12th Jul 2009, 22:41
He never wants to see another Glyph again (never again = forever), and forever is still not long enough. In other words, he's very sick of them.

G: "Tell Me"

The last line in T2 gave me the impression that Garrett is like: "Well, I guess I could take a little peek at your stupid books then, but only if it doesn't take too long. I have stuff to do." -At least judging from Garrett's recent mindset towards the keepers.

And then, in TDS Garrett somehow wants to see those books so eagerly that he's willing to risk his life twice by stealing some worthless trinkets for the keepers?

It doesn't make sense. What magnificent event somewhere between T2 and TDS made Garrett so interested in the keepers' books?

Hamadriyad
13th Jul 2009, 08:30
The last line in T2 gave me the impression that Garrett is like: "Well, I guess I could take a little peek at your stupid books then, but only if it doesn't take too long. I have stuff to do." -At least judging from Garrett's recent mindset towards the keepers.

And then, in TDS Garrett somehow wants to see those books so eagerly that he's willing to risk his life twice by stealing some worthless trinkets for the keepers?

It doesn't make sense. What magnificent event somewhere between T2 and TDS made Garrett so interested in the keepers' books?

I don't think so. Garrett really interested in the keepers' book in the end of TMA,. not just in TDS.

jtr7
13th Jul 2009, 08:34
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Hamadriyad
13th Jul 2009, 08:38
He wants his life to be his own, not pre-destined, not manipulated by Keepers and their books.

It doesn't mean he didn't interest in the books.

jtr7
13th Jul 2009, 08:44
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Hamadriyad
13th Jul 2009, 08:51
Sorry for misunderstanding. :flowers:


I wonder, is he really free now? You know, just because it isn't write in somewhere doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Meaning of one true keeper is to be free, is to be regular person? I don't think so.
What will become the city without keepers? Who will restore the balance? Garrett's tasks is not over in my opinion.
Platinium said he can't use any keeper magic anymore. But I stick that phrase in the end of TDS:
"It is no easy thing to... see a Keeper. Especially one who does not wish to be seen. "
How is this possible then? (I will ignore this in T4 but I am not ignoring now.)

And you said elsewhere:" And he wasn't supposed to hear the Enforcers' telepathic communication, either. "
Hmm... Why?

Platinumoxicity
13th Jul 2009, 10:45
Sorry for misunderstanding. :flowers:


I wonder, is he really free now? You know, just because it isn't write in somewhere doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Meaning of one true keeper is to be free, is to be regular person? I don't think so.
What will become the city without keepers? Who will restore the balance? Garrett's tasks is not over in my opinion.
Platinium said he can't use any keeper magic anymore. But I stick that phrase in the end of TDS:
"It is no easy thing to... see a Keeper. Especially one who does not wish to be seen. "
How is this possible then? (I will ignore this in T4 but I am not ignoring now.)


Firstly, the only thing backing up your theory of Garrett having this special power is that one sentence in the end. Then how come he hasn't been able to use that power in the earlier games since he's always been the true keeper from the very beginning? :scratch:

The so-called "balance" was exactly what the keepers got wrong, thus in the process creating one special keeper, a true keeper who's job was to remove the order from interfering with the world anymore. The main point in the extinction of the keepers was that the City doesn't need the keepers anymore to keep the "balance", maybe it never did. Maybe the keepers only had an illusion of the shifting of balance, because they couldn't influence a pre-written future in the first place. The main thing in the unwritten times is the question: "What will become of the City without the keepers?" If the City can manage without the keepers, which is highly likely, the only balance that the keeper order had ever managed to create, was their own destruction. They tried so hard to keep the balance, that they never realised that they themselves were the imbalance.

Garrett's job at keeping the balance is over, he isn't bound to do it anymore by fate. The future is not written in advance, and Garrett's actions no longer steer the events to a fixed direction. He can still influence anything, with a little guidance from the former keepers, but the end is no longer certain. A good and a bad ending perhaps?

Hamadriyad
13th Jul 2009, 11:40
Firstly, the only thing backing up your theory of Garrett having this special power is that one sentence in the end. Then how come he hasn't been able to use that power in the earlier games since he's always been the true keeper from the very beginning? :scratch:


I don't know. that is what I try to understand, here is where I am stuck. (He couldn't use the glyphs until the rituel in TDS, perhaps. But the glyphs are gone. So how? I don't know.Really.)


The so-called "balance" was exactly what the keepers got wrong, thus in the process creating one special keeper, a true keeper who's job was to remove the order from interfering with the world anymore. The main point in the extinction of the keepers was that the City doesn't need the keepers anymore to keep the "balance", maybe it never did. Maybe the keepers only had an illusion of the shifting of balance, because they couldn't influence a pre-written future in the first place. The main thing in the unwritten times is the question: "What will become of the City without the keepers?" If the City can manage without the keepers, which is highly likely, the only balance that the keeper order had ever managed to create, was their own destruction. They tried so hard to keep the balance, that they never realised that they themselves were the imbalance.Garrett's job at keeping the balance is over, he isn't bound to do it anymore by fate. The future is not written in advance, and Garrett's actions no longer steer the events to a fixed direction. He can still influence anything, with a little guidance from the former keepers, but the end is no longer certain. A good and a bad ending perhaps?

I see your points and I agree with most of them.
But
"Garrett's job at keeping the balance is over, he isn't bound to do it anymore by fate."
I disagree with that. It is not over, just is not written in somewhere. Fate doesn't have to be written in books. Garrett will do what he has to do. But this time, nobody knows what is it.

Platinumoxicity
13th Jul 2009, 13:15
I see your points and I agree with most of them.
But
"Garrett's job at keeping the balance is over, he isn't bound to do it anymore by fate."
I disagree with that. It is not over, just is not written in somewhere. Fate doesn't have to be written in books. Garrett will do what he has to do. But this time, nobody knows what is it.

Yes. It's not written anymore, so this time someone needs to offer Garrett some hard cash to make him go on the balance business. He doesn't have to do any of that stuff anymore, and even if he would, it wouldn't necessarily be for the better. What he does could as well make things worse because the nice ending isn't that certain.

But fate does have to be written in books at least in the Thief universe. "The Unwritten times" most likely means that every option is open. All that clicé fate-stuff went away with the keepers and everything is back to normal, like it was centuries ago, before the first keepers.

ToMegaTherion
13th Jul 2009, 13:18
The line "It is no easy thing to... see a Keeper" can be taken as either a joke by Garrett or just his finally accepting what he is. It doesn't have to have any operational importance -- it doesn't have to mean he has any extra powers.

"It is no easy thing to... see a Keeper (well, actually it is now, because we don't have any powers any more)" is not quite such a good line to end the trilogy. Even if it might be true.

Hamadriyad
13th Jul 2009, 13:23
But fate does have to be written in books at least in the Thief universe. "The Unwritten times" most likely means that every option is open. All that clicé fate-stuff went away with the keepers and everything is back to normal, like it was centuries ago, before the first keepers.

This is just your idea. We don't have a clue about that.
Besides, If there is a written prophecy, that means somebody wrote it. Those books didn't grew up on the ground. And you can't write a fate that doesn't exist. Prophecies don't become true just because someone wrote them.

Platinumoxicity
13th Jul 2009, 14:45
This is just your idea. We don't have a clue about that.

Yes, but don't you think that it would be a nice change to the old boring routine if everything that was going to happen wouldn't be bolted down and the game would take you to several different direction according to what you do?

Anyway, all kinds of fate-stuff is kinda stupid. I prefer the butterfly effect. :)

Hamadriyad
13th Jul 2009, 14:51
Yes, but don't you think that it would be a nice change to the old boring routine if everything that was going to happen wouldn't be bolted down and the game would take you to several different direction according to what you do?

Anyway, all kinds of fate-stuff is kinda stupid. I prefer the butterfly effect. :)

I prefer "stupid" fate-stuff. :)
I think this is theme of Thief series(at least a side theme) and I like it. (In fact I think this is theme of the whole universe.)
Anyway, we will see. ;)

Platinumoxicity
13th Jul 2009, 18:58
I prefer "stupid" fate-stuff. :)

But Garrett living by fate is Garrett submitting to a higher will.

Garrett should be able to sneak by fate. Think of it the same way you'd think that Chuck Norris can kill death. :D

PJMaybe
13th Jul 2009, 21:29
It doesn't make sense. What magnificent event somewhere between T2 and TDS made Garrett so interested in the keepers' books?

Its not just that. What magnificent event between T2 and TDS turned him into Jack Bauer? He had no reason whatsoever to go to the clock tower. The Keepers told him not to, he wasn't doing it for any loot or treasure, there was no imminent threat to him at that time. What suddenly made him become so interested in saving others and in doing the right thing because it was the right thing and not because he had no other choice? I remember the briefing scene that introduced the clock tower mission left me feeling like playing something else. It just wasn't Garrett any more.

Platinumoxicity
13th Jul 2009, 21:37
Its not just that. What magnificent event between T2 and TDS turned him into Jack Bauer? He had no reason whatsoever to go to the clock tower. The Keepers told him not to, he wasn't doing it for any loot or treasure, there was no imminent threat to him at that time.

Yeah that was one of the weirdest moments in TDS. The first thing that came to mind was some sort of mind control.:confused:

jtr7
13th Jul 2009, 22:40
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gryphos
14th Jul 2009, 03:55
>>Anyway, all kinds of fate-stuff is kinda stupid. I prefer the butterfly effect. But Garrett living by fate is Garrett submitting to a higher will. Garrett should be able to sneak by fate

The notion that prophecy makes one a puppet does not follow. Glyph prophets merely have a window outside of time which allows them to cheat in what they can know. But it isn't the same thing as controlling a person. In fact prophecy is far more interesting when you have a free willed agent operating freely according to what they see as the best way and prophecy be damned - but because they can't foresee the ripples of their actions, things work out anyway. Very few writers have ever been able to pull this off effectively, though it can be done. The idea of Garrett being able to sneak by fate itself is magnitudes more magical than the notion of him having glyph invisibility.

>>What suddenly made him become so interested in saving others and in doing the right thing because it was the right thing and not because he had no other choice

Because he actually does have some spark of heroism in him after all. He's certainly no Aragorn, but if we look back to TDP and TMA, why didn't he cut and run after the Keepers cut him loose from Victoria's vines? Heck, after that bloody mess, and then the run out into the streets with corpses everywhere on the way to the Hammer Seminary, he had EVERY reason and opportunity to ditch town and grab the first ship or caravan to Blackbrook. Why didn't he skin out when Victoria showed him the mutox process and told him her plan to assault Soulforge? If he really is just the "all-for-me" antihero, it makes no sense that he would care when Artemis came to tell him that she went ahead of him and was making a mess of things. Stealth is out the door, and a madman has a weapon of mass destruction decentralized all over town - why bother to try to fix it now instead of running?

Because, hard as he is... as rough as he talks... he actually does have a sense of honor, even if he executes it with an end-justifies-the-means ethic.

jtr7
14th Jul 2009, 03:57
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gryphos
14th Jul 2009, 21:46
Sure. His lifestyle (making the big score so he can retire) is dictated by his training and his background as a street rat. In the immediate sense, his code says don't get involved with whatever gets in the way of making the Score. But in a deeper sense, he, consciously or unconsciously, chooses to do the right action when nobody else can or will, even though he could cut and run and ply his trade in other towns with rich sheep to fleece. It's kind of a perverse sense of patriotism, but it's there.

jtr7
14th Jul 2009, 22:21
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DarthEnder
15th Jul 2009, 02:22
Garrett going after Constantine is purely a matter of professionalism. Constantine hired him to do a job. He did it. Constantine didn't pay him. You can't let that kind of thing slide or else everyone will start stiffing you!

gryphos
15th Jul 2009, 23:02
But he still didn't get paid the 100,000 he was promised. He did get revenge. However, the sort of hubris that motivates a person to seek revenge on a god is a little over the top in terms of mere professionalism among thieves. That is the kind of pride that borders on fanatic principles. The only professionals that I know who risk their life on extremely hazardous duty are in spec ops, who have very clear motivated principles.

jtr7
16th Jul 2009, 00:01
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Herr_Garrett
16th Jul 2009, 07:36
But he still didn't get paid the 100,000 he was promised. He did get revenge. However, the sort of hubris that motivates a person to seek revenge on a god is a little over the top in terms of mere professionalism among thieves. That is the kind of pride that borders on fanatic principles. The only professionals that I know who risk their life on extremely hazardous duty are in spec ops, who have very clear motivated principles.

Hübris is the key word. Garrett is always sure of himself - the only occasion he is somewhat nervous is the Cradle. He always plans ahead, calculates, keeps his nerves steady and his mind cool. He went after Constantine saying "I've never robbed a god before. It'll be a challenge." in easy tones. He was damn sure he'll beat Karras: "Just give me the details" and "Your plan is suicide. I'll think of a better way. And I work alone.". He always precisely knows what he is doing, and that he'll succed. (Well, eventually. After you've finished the game. Anyway.) It's not just professional pride. In his analytic mind, Garrett always ponders the next hundred steps ahead. He knows he'll win. He knows he can finish off gods and Glyph-powered supermonstrosities.

He was nervous, I think, about the Cradle because he absolutely couldn't find anything about what might await inside. And he was "shaken" by it precisely because he couldn't really outwit the Cradle. He escaped, but did he all? Or was a self of his still wandering among the ruins and puppets forever? Was it for real? Was it real?

Otherwise, Garrett is near-almighty. The only thing that restrains him is his sort-of-code. The world should be glad he has that code.

AngelRose777
17th Jul 2009, 03:55
....ummm...I thought this thread was about the factions?

AngelRose777
17th Jul 2009, 03:59
amoral Garrett has a code? Interesting. Actually, that reminds me. I hope in the next one they choose factions that don't so obviously make fun of religion. Organizations can be fanatic about other stuff, after all (like Karras' agenda with the mechanists).

jtr7
17th Jul 2009, 04:19
.......................

AngelRose777
17th Jul 2009, 13:16
Yes, but it wasn't varied enough. All the main factions were religious zealots of some sort. The human race is passionate and can get fanatical about any sort of idea if it's a powerful one.

AngelRose777
17th Jul 2009, 13:29
I'm actually playing the game right now, and the hammerites are way too close to christianity for my liking. If you're going to create religious zealots in a game, it's just stupid to make them after the religion on which a country is founded.

gryphos
17th Jul 2009, 16:54
I think the sort of code noted in jtr's link is the kind of thing that would be good for the City Wardens to observe. I think Garrett has his own that might overlap it in places, though not all.

Wasn't an MIT student... just loved pirates enough to run across those particular pirate's articles in my reading.

>>the hammerites are way too close to christianity for my liking. If you're going to create religious zealots in a game, it's just stupid to make them after the religion on which a country is founded

That many of the outward trappings resemble Catholic (eastern or western traditions) shouldn't trouble you overly. The content of the character of Christianity is rather different than the Hammerites.

gryphos
17th Jul 2009, 16:56
I can't seem to find them in my library just now, but there is another historic pirates code from a captain in the Barbary Corsairs, if I can find it that is an interesting contrast to Black Bart's.

jtr7
17th Jul 2009, 21:37
....................

AngelRose777
17th Jul 2009, 23:41
...wow....no really that was awesome. ^_^ Yay thanks, I actually feel much better. It's like when someone makes a joke and you're not quite sure whether it was meant to be personal or not. I wasn't sure if they'd really meant to model them after christians (you know, b/c the crazy factions are religious but Garrett isn't). You guys are really smart.... How do you know all this stuff? I think I learn more in these game forums than in class...

gryphos
18th Jul 2009, 04:34
There's one really Good Book to read before branching off in more recent (that is within the last five or six centuries) history books... ;)

gryphos
18th Jul 2009, 04:37
>>I don't wanna hear any suggestion from the taffers about any mindless or random design of levels or story.

Oh... like verisimilitude matters??

jtr7
18th Jul 2009, 04:47
..................

Gillie
20th Jul 2009, 22:38
I would love to see the return of Basso and Jenivive. He still owes Garrett a favour.
As a character he was good, he was once a Thief. Maybe Garret can help him again too.
Perhaps he has landed in trouble again. :cool:

jtr7
20th Jul 2009, 23:11
....................

Kold
21st Jul 2009, 01:30
The previous games introduced us to the ancient sect of The Keepers; the religious group known as The Order of the Hammer (The Hammerites): the Mechanists (The Order of the Gear) who were an offshoot of the Hammerites; and the nature-loving Pagans (The Order of the Vine).

Would you like to see any of these factions and characters return in T4? If so, who/what?

Perhaps you have new ideas too? Please share...

Maybe, being there is an offshoot of the Hammers, there could be an offshoot of the Pagans as well? Maybe they dont/didnt worship the Trickster, but another god (I mean, they are called Pagans, so theyre pantheistic, ja?).. Like in Norse mythology the gods have daughters, sons, etc... Like Loki has three children (like the wolf Fenrir, the great snake Jormundgandr, etc.)? lol... In other words an offshoot of Pagans rise to power that worship a god(s) "related" to the Trickster?

Edit: And maybe these Pagans try to ally with Kurshok, and thus the Kurshok are rising again as well? Maybe they make it back to the surface, gain lost knowledge, etc...

jtr7
21st Jul 2009, 03:00
......................

gryphos
21st Jul 2009, 03:41
Again, I have to say that the real unaddressed tangles left are amongst the Baron/Nobility/City Wardens. They have been present in all, but only as background. They have not moved the major plot like Pagans, Hammers, Mechanists, and Keepers. I'm thinking that this leaves a very twisty plot available of gangs and gangsters, scheming politicos, ruthless powerbrokers hiding behind civil masks, of schemes, schemers, and counter-schemes. I'm rather more inclined to prefer a Guy Ritchie sort of take on thieves honorable and otherwise as opposed to a Martin Scorsese take...

jtr7
21st Jul 2009, 03:52
.................

darkmagicasorseer
8th Aug 2009, 15:03
As long as the game focuses on balance between Pagans and Hammers I'll be happy, be careful introducing new factions as the entire story was focused around these two.
In metal age there was the mechanist, maybe now in T4 there should be the offshoot version of the pagans, maybe called The Order of the Weeds:D?

Flashart
8th Aug 2009, 15:37
We are told that Larkspur is violent and unpredictable. He should lead "his" followers on a campaign for war with the Hammers. Dyan asks Garrett to help her and the rest of the Pagans, because split they are at risk from the superior numbers of the Hammers. Ideally, I'd like this set against some other story line (plague/ undead?) So what you've got is the City threatened on 3 sides (Larkspur, Hammers, Plague) while Garrett has to "balance" the whole lot, with help from an unlikely ally....

evilblizz
13th Aug 2009, 11:35
Maybe a spy faction where he can make recon missions and getting informations.

Shadow Blade
13th Aug 2009, 12:50
In metal age there was the mechanist, maybe now in T4 there should be the offshoot version of the pagans, maybe called The Order of the Weeds:D?

.Hey Drift Wood?
.Yeah Dandelion?
.You wanna go get high?:D

Secondary
13th Aug 2009, 23:42
keepers are out, or more accuratley they are out as keepers. characters who were once keepers and are struggling to adapt would be interesting (i suggested elsewhere that enemies who abuse glyph powers would be interesting. thats what Gamall was, these new enemies might be much less dangerous but more numerous small timers who have a narrow grasp of glyphs).

we didnt hear anyhting of aout the mechanists in TDS (excpet for an obscure reference in a journal to Cetus Amicus), some small mechanist resurgence would be cool.

and of course zombies have never really been fully explained, necromancers where breifly and mysteriously introduced in the older games, perhaps and more in depth explanation of their order and their conection to the undead may be included.

but for goodness sake, i hope that no thieves faction is introduced, Garrett is a loner and apart from a select few fences and freinds works alone. we have all seen what happens when you try to pack a bunch of anti-heroes into a sort of orginzation (e.g, the bretheren court in POTC was stupid and inane, it was corny and made me feel like pirates were some sort of social club). besides, to be realistic being a theif requires secrecy and the only way two people can keep a secret...is if one of them is dead.

jtr7
13th Aug 2009, 23:56
...................

minus0ne
14th Aug 2009, 00:30
I'm actually playing the game right now, and the hammerites are way too close to christianity for my liking. If you're going to create religious zealots in a game, it's just stupid to make them after the religion on which a country is founded.
Funny man. One of the best parts of Thief is how it ridicules religion, with the Hammerites based on Catholicism/Christianity (who are, after all, the arch-zealots) amongst others. To take that out or even tone it down would destroy Thief 4. I'd decide not to buy it in a second.

Have a read here: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_205/6150-Robbing-Gods

Your argument about it being stupid to "make them after the religion on which a country is founded" is even weirder (what better to ridicule than what you know/understand). The Thief games are actually fairly sophisticated in how they point out how extremely bad religion can be, is, and always will be. Even if, as in Thief's case, these 'gods' were 'real' (which is where it gets fairly surreal). Kafka would be proud, indeed.

Oh and you're just playing the game for the first time and decide one of its greatest parts (and one that makes the Thief world so involving) isn't to your liking - what the hell?! If you don't like serious games that rightly criticise religion, go play any of the gazillion mediocre game titles out there, there's plenty of stuff that doesn't require anything other than twitch gameplay and mindless violence.

And if you're honestly learning more here on this forum than in school, then get the hell out of that school, FAST.

PJMaybe
14th Aug 2009, 06:10
I think the way the Hammers and Mechanists are portrayed is awesome; constantly quoting scriptures and always ready to bash your brains in if you don't like it, its a mixture of religion and violence which, as minus0ne has said, is quite like the it used to be in real life. It really adds something to the feel of the city and is very very satisfying to steal from them!

jtr7
14th Aug 2009, 06:19
Emil Pagliarulo said: "The Hammers and Mechanists were basically the Catholics and Protestants...that was the high-level paradigm we used."

Having grown up Christian, I had no problem spotting it. I'm always surprised when a Christian says they don't see the connection, but I'm not surprised most take it personally offensive, and they really shouldn't.

xDarknessFallsx
14th Aug 2009, 06:50
I wonder if Thi4f will become so "politically correct" that no semblance of religion will be in it. Then I might get offended...

No, just kidding. I enjoy the mature theme of Thief and making my own decisions on what offends, all the while realizing it's a game, and so hope Th4f doesn't get watered down or contain less mature subject matter. We can choose not to play if we desire. And any game with magic in it has the possibility to offend (World of Warcraft, Thief, etc.), but I think a lot of folks realize it's just a game.

Having not really ever 'played' much of TDP before (I just got Gold and am playing through it), I was impressed by the Mages level. It was very large, and I had never seen the mage power before where they wrap you up in vines where you can hardly move. Is that in TMA? I think seeing some mages and necromancers in Thief IV would be nice; with some various powers.

Trying not to get off topic, but failing, so I'll make this gray text: I was also impressed by a few other TDP levels like Thieves Guild. Very large level. I thought there would be more haunt levels in TDP than I'm seeing so far, so that's good, too. (In other words, I'm seeing a lot more humans than I thought I would, which is right down my alley.) I still like TMA quite a bit better, but am definitely enjoying TDP. I just got The Eye from the Cathedral and am trying to find the exit through the Cloister... grr. (Clarification: I've had TDP non-Gold version for a long time and totally forgot I had it, so I got TDP Gold recently. As I play through Gold, I now realize I played bits and pieces of some of these levels about 8 or 9 years ago but skipped through a lot of the levels (cheated) because I wasn't feeling TDP at the time. (I've sometimes wondered where I had gotten faint memories of some of these levels before; now I know.) I had played TMA first in the series and so found it difficult at the time to go backwards graphically, and to make the time commitment necessary to play, etc. Now that it's like 10 years later, I see this as a way for me to experience official Thief levels I had never fully played through or paid attention to before. Bad taffer for not really playing TDP before. But good taffer for correcting the mistake.

jtr7
14th Aug 2009, 07:12
I wonder if Thi4f will become so "politically correct" that no semblance of religion will be in it. Then I might get offended...

No, just kidding. I enjoy the mature theme of Thief and making my own decisions on what offends, all the while realizing it's a game, and so hope Th4f doesn't get watered down or contain less mature subject matter. We can choose not to play if we desire. And any game with magic in it has the possibility to offend (World of Warcraft, Thief, etc.), but I think a lot of folks realize it's just a game.

Having not really ever 'played' much of TDP before (I just got Gold and am playing through it), I was impressed by the Mages level. It was very large, and I had never seen the mage power before where they wrap you up in vines where you can hardly move. Is that in TMA? I think seeing some mages and necromancers in Thief IV would be nice; with some various powers.

Trying not to get off topic, but failing, so I'll make this gray text: I was also impressed by a few other TDP levels like Thieves Guild. Very large level. I thought there would be more haunt levels in TDP than I'm seeing so far, so that's good, too. (In other words, I'm seeing a lot more humans than I thought I would, which is right down my alley.) I still like TMA quite a bit better, but am definitely enjoying TDP. I just got The Eye from the Cathedral and am trying to find the exit through the Cloister... grr. (Clarification: I've had TDP non-Gold version for a long time and totally forgot I had it, so I got TDP Gold recently. As I play through Gold, I now realize I played bits and pieces of some of these levels about 8 or 9 years ago but skipped through a lot of the levels (cheated) because I wasn't feeling TDP at the time. (I've sometimes wondered where I had gotten faint memories of some of these levels before; now I know.) I had played TMA first in the series and so found it difficult at the time to go backwards graphically, and to make the time commitment necessary to play, etc. Now that it's like 10 years later, I see this as a way for me to experience official Thief levels I had never fully played through or paid attention to before. Bad taffer for not really playing TDP before. But good taffer for correcting the mistake.

Well cool! Always nice to hear someone enjoy and notice things and see what works and not. Congratulations on experiencing much of it for the first time.

No, there's no specialized conjuring in-game in TMA, just the usual Cleric conjured exploding projectiles (gears instead of hammers, though), and the angry apparitions' conjured exploding skull projectiles (three flavors of the same magic: hammers, gears, skulls). The Mages conjure crushing vines, fireballs, icicles, and air elementals.

darkmagicasorseer
14th Aug 2009, 13:52
In metal age there was the mechanist, maybe now in T4 there should be the offshoot version of the pagans, maybe called The Order of the Weeds:D?

1. I think "The Order of The Beast" should be more appropriate for the offshoot Pagan (The Order of The Vines". Since beast and plant are both two very distinct elements of the nature and both are representing chaos.

2. Having another hammer's offshoot mechanist is redundancy, hence having a Beast that can shape shift into human form and hide in plain sight can be a dangerous adversary to the Master Thief.

3. Yet again, Garrett should be "manipulated" by the Keepers with no Glyphs to restore balance.

darkmagicasorseer
14th Aug 2009, 14:03
In metal age there was the mechanist, maybe now in T4 there should be the offshoot version of the pagans, maybe called The Order of the Weeds:D?

1. I think "The Order of The Beast" should be more appropriate for the offshoot Pagan (The Order of The Vines". Since beast and plant are both two very distinct elements of the nature and both are representing chaos.

2. Having another hammer's offshoot mechanist is redundancy, hence having a Beast that can shape shift into human form and hide in plain sight can be a dangerous adversary to the Master Thief.

3. Yet again, Garrett should be "manipulated" by the Keepers with no Glyphs to restore balance.

esme
14th Aug 2009, 14:08
the coming of the Alchemists

characters are easily recognised by the lingering smell of sulphur and their lack of eyebrows and their habit of falling from the sky preceded by a distant bang and smoke on the horizon

they are slowly destroying the city with large explosions caused completely unintentionally as they continue their quest for the formula to translate base metal into gold

our story begins as they discover nuclear fission as evidenced by a singularly large crater coated in a glass like substance and lacking even the traditional smoking boots at the epicentre

matdmcc2
16th Aug 2009, 04:58
I definitely would like to see more factions involved. I definitely understand some folks' concern that it would bog down the game and so a fine line would have to be drawn.;) However, there are many good suggestions: hammerites, pagans, nobility, thieves guild etc. But how about the many merchants who Garret has stolen from? I propose a merchant guild which is growing in power and is hunting down thieves (vis a vis pirates in the 1700s).:scratch: I dunno. Viktoria should definitely return she was rather evilly cool, yet somewhat good. I wouldnt mind a faction that had mechanized enemies again. Just no demons or strange swamp thing dudes.:mad2: Oh and perhaps depending on whom Garret allies with, perhaps he would get specific gear? :rolleyes:

PlumsieTaker
16th Aug 2009, 05:30
...a merchant guild which is growing in power and is hunting down thieves.

Actually, I quite like that idea. Also, being a large guild they have too much coin on hand, which is where Garrett kindly comes along and helps them.. take care of some of the load.

jtr7
16th Aug 2009, 07:09
VIktoria returns without her people? No chaos to balance the Order of the Hammer? No thanks.

esme
17th Aug 2009, 12:42
...I propose a merchant guild which is growing in power and is hunting down thieves (vis a vis pirates in the 1700s).:scratch: I dunno...bit like the east india trading company from pirates of the carribean ?

I quite like that

imperialreign
18th Aug 2009, 23:07
I had an idea long ago about how the factions might carry on after the events of TDS . . .

here, I dug up the link from TTLG: http://ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1576706#post1576706

jtr7
22nd Aug 2009, 00:05
One mission with a scenario involving thieves disguised as guards, foiled by Garrett--AGAIN! Haha!

Goldfish King
22nd Aug 2009, 05:45
I would like theer to be three main factions that the story is based upon, with other, maybe new factions, as side quests. Maybe the three main ones can be Hammers, Pagans, and the nobility. The nobility, being unable to fight well, could rely heavily on the use of assassins and mercenaries. If there were mercenaries, it might bring a little of the previously unseen military factor into the game. As a weird idea for a side-faction, maybe this weird guy is half beast, and can commune with the semi-intelligent creatures, and have them unite or something. It'd definately have to be done well, otherwise it'd be dumb. Maybe. I dunno.

Herr_Garrett
24th Aug 2009, 18:09
That swirling blue fog was a faction all to itself, bent on hindering Garrett traversing the City every possible way.

It should not return. It's waaaay to evil. It could teach Satan a thing or two, so vile and wicked 'tis.

Ode to a Grasshopper
26th Aug 2009, 08:28
The line "It is no easy thing to... see a Keeper" can be taken as either a joke by Garrett or just his finally accepting what he is. It doesn't have to have any operational importance -- it doesn't have to mean he has any extra powers.

"It is no easy thing to... see a Keeper (well, actually it is now, because we don't have any powers any more)" is not quite such a good line to end the trilogy. Even if it might be true.The important bit to me in this was that for the first time Garrett self-identifies as a Keeper, having always resisted the label before.

But it isn't the same thing as controlling a person. In fact prophecy is far more interesting when you have a free willed agent operating freely according to what they see as the best way and prophecy be damned - but because they can't foresee the ripples of their actions, things work out anyway. Very few writers have ever been able to pull this off effectively, though it can be done.Thank you for putting it so well. This is another of the many many strengths of the Thief series IMO, that it can skillfully propel the story onwards with a protagonist who really (usually) is just looking out for number 1, and trying to avoid becoming involved, but still finds himself pushed into the action as a result of trying to save his own neck, without being ridiculously heavy-handed about it.


Because, hard as he is... as rough as he talks... he actually does have a sense of honor, even if he executes it with an end-justifies-the-means ethic.This is what makes him such an interesting character IMO (and the fact he does develop as a character over the series) - he really is an anti-hero in the true sense of the word. A lot of games that try to pull off anti-heroes end up turning them into plain old mercenaries (who all too often have a sudden turn to heroism), but Garrett has depth (as well as being a better mercenary than most others). There clearly is a conscience of some sort somewhere under there, even if he'd never admit it and does everything he can to avoid it.

I'm actually playing the game right now, and the hammerites are way too close to christianity for my liking. If you're going to create religious zealots in a game, it's just stupid to make them after the religion on which a country is founded.I've never been able to get a copy of TDP :( but I really liked that aspect of the Hammerites. It made it recognizeable and made sense with the opposition to the Pagans, and the Mechanist schism was a nice parallel (well, sort of) to the Reformation. It also worked with the classic D&D Law/Neutral/Chaos alignment system (I was fresh out of Baldur's Gate 2 when I first came across the Thief series), which ties in well to the medieval/fantasy aspects of Thief and the way it was initially going to be a sort of dark Arthurian role-playing/adventure game. But then I'm not a Christian though I do have a keen interest in Christianity, so I'm not offended by it.

That's awesome re. the Reformation factions @jtr7, if you have any further references/sites on that (design notes maybe?) I'd be really interested to read them.:)

And any game with magic in it has the possibility to offend (World of Warcraft, Thief, etc.), but I think a lot of folks realize it's just a game.

Having not really ever 'played' much of TDP before (I just got Gold and am playing through it), I was impressed by the Mages level. It was very large, and I had never seen the mage power before where they wrap you up in vines where you can hardly move. Is that in TMA? I think seeing some mages and necromancers in Thief IV would be nice; with some various powers. Great, now you've got me wanting a Harry Potter crossover FM level where Garrett robs Hogwarts, steals the Sorting Hat and House relics, steals/defaces the talking paintings, and blackjacks Harry and co. into submission (and knowing the way I play drops them into the lake for good measure...:whistle: ).

Zahr Dalsk
31st Aug 2009, 04:33
The nobility, being unable to fight well, could rely heavily on the use of assassins and mercenaries.

They do have the Builder's Children, if they were smart enough to keep their Mechanists on hand.

jtr7
31st Aug 2009, 05:48
Hahaha! A kind of poetic justice: Mechanists as Noble's slaves, under the protection of the rich, instead of calling the shots!

Zahr Dalsk
31st Aug 2009, 05:56
Hahaha! A kind of poetic justice: Mechanists as Noble's slaves, instead of calling the shots!

It's hard to keep someone as a slave when he's the one maintaining your manor's electrical systems, security systems, and has several bomb-throwing robots under his control.

jtr7
31st Aug 2009, 06:01
Gotta have some excuse for not turning him/her over to the Hammers for trial and/or execution. The Mech would have to be desperate or mad to set upon his/her master (you did say "smart enough to keep their Mechanists", which is what inspired my comment, even though you meant something else). Mechanists are blasphemers, heretical, having denounced the hammer, thus, denouncing The Builder in the eyes of the Hammerites.

Zahr Dalsk
31st Aug 2009, 06:14
Here's the deal:

- Mechanist Order collapsed when the Mechanists realized what Karras had really been up to.
- Most went back to the Order of the Hammer seeking forgiveness, or tried to hide. The ones who openly went back the Hammerites, or who were caught without defenses, would be tortured and usually killed.
- Nobles like Mechanists; they find having a Hammerite priest in their manor rather an embarrassment with guests, they like the technological improvements the Mechanists bring, they like that Mechanists are smooth talkers in general and tend to impress guests.
- So, presumably, some of the Mechanists would decide to just... stay with their noble. And the noble would (this varies, but going by Thief 2 we can safely say it's the majority case) greatly appreciate the chance to have a Mechanist instead of a Hammerite.
- They'd not be openly bragging to the Hammerites that they have a Mechanist, but they wouldn't need to actively keep it a secret; the City is a big place, and the Hammerites are focused more on hunting down easier heretics such as repentant Mechanists, Pagans, and the like, than trying (and failing) to attack a manor protected by Mechanist security systems. It's far easier to nab people off the street and to raid citizens' homes than it is to try to face off against Iron Beasts, Gun Turrets, etc. Hammerites lack the element of stealth, which is pretty much the one weakness of Mechanist security systems.

jtr7
31st Aug 2009, 06:52
Almost.

Considering that the Museum, in one of the wealthiest districts in The City, refers to the Mechanists in past tense (Keepers and Hammers, too), and considering the visitors to the museum are noblility (several T1/TG/T2 names fill the guestbooks, along with their critiques of the displays), when the display for Mechanist devices says:

MUSmechanist:
"Mechanists
Though short-lived, the Mechanist movement brought advancements into wealthy households, until both the sect and the technology associated with it came to an abrupt end. Now curiosities, these steam and lightning powered niceties comprise some of the labor saving and security devices deployed by the Mechanists."

I have a very strong reason to believe they are not where they can be seen. A shadow of themselves. And all the other comments and texts dismissing them and the majority of their tech in the present tense only serves to reinforce my stance. If the Keepers aren't worried about them, nor regard them in the present tense at all, I'm not considering their future importance at all, either.


Hammerite punishments for what we would consider minor offenses are severe and mutilating, including to the members of their own Order. I don't believe begging for forgiveness would prevent such trauma that death wouldn't be near and actual.


Nobles used to like the Mechanist toys. Something changed that.


Any Mechanists left would have to be something else, no longer associated with the Hammers or Mechanist religion, else they are leftover corruption that was supposed to have been wiped clean from The City. They would have to fill a very different role, and I doubt they would understand magical Precursor constructs. Boiler and Gear, yes.

Caduca
4th Sep 2009, 20:53
well, keepers are kind of done just now as all glyphs were destroyed. Hammerites and pagans should return as well as new factions. Perhaps a new deviation of Pagans called Wiccans? They no longer follow Viktoria or the Trickster? Also the city Watch maybe having competition from a private firm offering Security? Also perhaps some of the old keepers should form a group trying to protect the city with other froms of magic and trying to find a way to get glyphs back. I think that knowing Eidos great work in the past, the factions won't disappoint

Secondary
4th Sep 2009, 21:03
including Wiccans comes a little too close to reality for me, immersion killer. a splinter faction of Pagans is a superb idea, dont get me wrong, but Wicca is not the right face for it to wear

Caduca
5th Sep 2009, 19:46
Yep, and they should have online modes for Xbox 360 where you play as pagans, hammerites or keepers in a deathmatch style game

jtr7
5th Sep 2009, 23:38
That, of course, would not be Thief and it would just turn The City into a mere setting, so I would rather that was a fan endeavor.

Secondary
6th Sep 2009, 00:09
another point amde in the multiplayer vs. editor thread.

give us the editor, than fans can make the multiplayer themselves

like i said, EM just needs to focus on a quality single player game first, than we can worry about the bells and whistles. make an expansion pack, release the editor, extend the deadline for the games release (not too many times of course), but dont lose sight of the single player!

Zahr Dalsk
6th Sep 2009, 01:49
That, of course, would not be Thief and it would just turn The City into a mere setting, so I would rather that was a fan endeavor.

I would enjoy seeing games in other genres using the Thief setting, provided they maintained canonical accuracy. Thief has much background and has the potential for so much more than merely a line of stealth games, regardless of how good the first two were.

jtr7
6th Sep 2009, 02:10
Yep. I wouldn't mind the existence of other games with other titles--"The City: Theftmatch"--just not built into a Thief game proper. Anything done on the side doesn't bother me at all. The fans of the other ones might, though. :p

Herr_Garrett
6th Sep 2009, 13:26
How about some of the ex-Keepers - those who used Glyphs to lenghten their lives - siding with the Necromancers? They are willing to share the knowledge with them in exchange for any kind of existence. Liches could be involved.

This could actually turn the Necros into a major faction; I would go as far as saying maybe into (a) major antagonist(s).

jtr7
6th Sep 2009, 15:09
The knowledge to give the Necromancers couldn't pertain to Glyph use, without Glyphs--an Invertamus somatic Glyph spell cast upon themselves.


I still think the Necros would be formidable enough if they have the Book of Ash and the vacuum left behind from the snuffed Keeper influence and magic.

Herr_Garrett
6th Sep 2009, 17:43
The knowledge to give the Necromancers couldn't pertain to Glyph use, without Glyphs--an Invertamus somatic Glyph spell cast upon themselves.


I still think the Necros would be formidable enough if they have the Book of Ash and the vacuum left behind from the snuffed Keeper influence and magic.

I wrote knowledge, not magics. Knowledge as in knowing the place of lost artefacts, secret places, hideouts and safe passages, studies concerning magics, and so forth. Keepers were the lorekeepers, the scientists of the Thiefverse.

It'd be like giving access to Q's powers for the Borg... or someone very evil. To cite another Star Trek example :p

Seriously, Necros and some of the ex-Keepers ganging up on the City/Garrett could make a riveting storyline.

jtr7
7th Sep 2009, 04:54
Context made it sound like it had something to do with magic, not just the layout of The City and dirt on people, until you mentioned it again.

larix
21st Nov 2010, 21:12
Hammers (or their fraction), remains of keepers, zombies/dolls <3, pegans (humans only)

They only thing that i really hated in Thief games were these strange human-fish, rat-man, and in gernal human-something mixes.

Also I didn't like these heavy mecha levels.

In my opinion best levels of Thief were with hammerites, "normal" break-ins and ofcourse the creepy creepy levels with zombies (orphanage, galley, etc)

Nekroface
22nd Nov 2010, 07:18
A rival thieves guild might be interesting to see,especially if it we're to involve a covert war between the two factions.keepers and whatever new faction introduced that is.

Platinumoxicity
22nd Nov 2010, 07:26
In TDS there should've been a mob war in the City. It was revealed that Ramirez, the warden of south quarter, hightowne and downtowne had died. That would mean that wardens Raputo and Webster would definitely be on the warpath to claim some of the areas for themselves while Ramirez' thugs squabble over the warden position. But in fact there was no trace of the organized crime underworld in that game.

Asadar
22nd Nov 2010, 19:49
Hu ? I don't remember that Ramirez was quoted in TDS... but yes, there was no trace of the organized crime in the game. So sad. :(

jtr7
22nd Nov 2010, 22:11
This is the only mention of Ramirez in TDS--his gravestone:
"Ramirez
Loved his Burricks"

He was apparently already dead in TMA, and who knows what Truart and the Warden Affairs Division did, but I'd sure like more insight into the Wardens (Webster was never involved in the plot, but handled many Port districts, and having Angelwatch erected in Eastport had to affect him), and the disappearance of the Thieves' Guild seemingly altogether. TMA had an unused journal entry about items Gervaisius picked up at the auction at Ramirez's Estate, and this was after he failed to RSVP or show up at Anglewatch.

Tryst
23rd Nov 2010, 13:50
Hammers Pagans, City Watch and Kurshok are a must, they are a perpetual part of Thief. Similarly, the Lost City and the Pagan Woodsie realm locations should be retained.

As for Mages etc, those are incidental factions. Unless they see the opening to take over with the loss of the Keepers to create a new plot, I think keeping them as minor background factions would be good. They are an occasional challenge to Garrett rather than just having guards and the normal factions to deal with. I would hate to see them defeated completely if they were part of the plot, we can't keep killing off all the factions. Maybe put them back in their place as the keepers would have done.

Splinter groups of the main factions are good but like Mages etc, should be used sparingly unless they are essential to the plot. However, once again, maybe putting them in their place rather than destroying them entirely so they could be used like the Mages as an additional challenge for any future Thief games.

Don't destroy the canon though, the mechanists are gone completely and although some of their legacy still remains in objects around the city, their influence and following are dead and buried along with Karras. While the Order of the Gear may remain, they maintain such things as the Clock Tower and similar machines that hardened Hammerites would see as bordering on Mechanist abominations, maybe an uneasy tolerance between the two. This could be part of incidental dialogue between two Hammerite guards about the necessity for the Order of the Gear but how it gives them the creeps. Similarly two of the Order speaking about the Hammerites refusal to mave with the times. Maybe Garrett could provoke a verbal ethical arguement between guards of the two factions as cover for his actions.

Platinumoxicity
23rd Nov 2010, 14:15
I really don't want to sound like "extreme anti-TDS" here but I think that the Kurshok were pretty lame and for me they didn't feel like that much of an important aspect of the world. And I saw that you didn't mention the strong criminal underworld element of the City there. Did you just leave it out as it's too obvious, or did you meant the Kurshok, a species of amphibians that appeared in one mission who have not interacted with- or even known of the existence of the City, to be more important than the business of the Wardens and guilds within the City?

Or did you forget? :D


While the Order of the Gear may remain, they maintain such things as the Clock Tower and similar machines that hardened Hammerites would see as bordering on Mechanist abominations, maybe an uneasy tolerance between the two.

The Hammerites don't have a problem with machines themselves. Just the way the mechanists wanted to take away beam and nail completely and replace them with rivets and steel. Everywhere there's Hammerites influence we see clockwork things. The gear wasn't invented by the Mechanists, they just rejected the Hammer and started worshipping the Gear instead. The clocktower was a Hammerite installation. And anyway, if religious fanatics act upon contradicting morals and commit hypocrisy, it can all be explained and justified using some perverse logic which sounds reasonable to them even though it's total nonsense. ;)

Tryst
23rd Nov 2010, 14:52
The guilds and such are an intrinsic part of the city and have been around since day one and are part of almost every RPG available, they need not be mentioned individually. The Thieves Guild etc will always be there since they have no motive other than self enrichment and are little more than a thorn in Garretts side on occasion.

Kurshok were lame, I agree. However, it filled a void where we would otherwise have had Hammers, Pagans or thieves guild or zombies/haunts/burricks/spiders etc running around the Lost City. Give credit where it's due, it made a change from the norm although implementation was lacking. Maybe forcing Garrett to reverse how he worked would have been better. Such creatures who live in darkness should have incredible night vision, forcing Garrett to use bright light to blind them and to hide himself in bright areas where it would work against good night vision. Underground bright areas would be as scarce as shadows in the world above. Possibly pools leaking methane for Garrett to use fire arrows to cause light instead of putting out torches. Thus, a complete reversal of his normal MO.

TheWoodsieLord
23rd Nov 2010, 19:20
The Kurshok weren't lame. They were great :)

With the Kurshok, TDS continued the Thief tradition of showing us something really new. Something (a "faction") that we have not seen in a previous thief game. This was a nice refreshment in comparison to TMA, which only gave us a new faction almost identical to one of the old ones.

Asadar
23rd Nov 2010, 19:53
Kurshok were great, I agree. But lack of time and means of Ion Storm to polish up this race, however, is to be deplored in my opinion. But the idea was good for me. Kursoks were simply victims of the final realization of the game, like other elements of TDS.

What I really would like for Thief 4, is a new faction of plotters, between politic, religion, and magica. A real force, which acts in the shade. Taking advantage of the precarious balance of the city to get what they want.
For example, the City could be in real difficulties because of the end of the war with Blackbrook.
Why not some kind of Monadism Cult focused on a mix of science and religion wich the escence would be a powerful form of magic anciently associated with Glyph ? :)
... Hmm, we could also think that if the glyphs were one of the most powerful form of magic, there may be before them (in the days when the ancient people still lived on the lost city) a magic more yet powerful, that the Glyphs prevent the return. And this "Cult" is now about to resurrect the dangerous forces remained dormant for centuries.

Or something else. :D

Platinumoxicity
23rd Nov 2010, 20:50
The precursors seemed to have a civilization before the Trickster existed. It was said that it was the Hammer that brought people out of the woods and defeated the Trickster, but in the texts in Karath Din there is no mention of hammers, nor is there any reference to the Trickster in the whole lost city. Just a weird statue of a Cthulhu-like humanoid. Whatever deities the precursors prayed to had to have left a long time ago, before the Trickster rose to power and made the ancient forest people worship him.

Could this be another angle to go on? Maybe there could a a conspiracy of altered offspring of the precursors that have some wicked plans? Or maybe some sentient malevolent construct made by teh precursor scientists that originally created the formula for rust gas and perhaps also caused the cataclysm that buried Karath Din? Maybe they buried the city on purpose to hide something?

Asadar
23rd Nov 2010, 21:11
You read my mind, that's exactly what I was thinking. :)

If we delves into the elements given on Karath Din, we can presume that its last souverrain, Va-Toran, before the cataclysm was abusing his power for personal gain, and had certainly something to hide. Maybe even he is himself the cause of the cataclysm?
And what about the Guild of Enlightenment who tried to persuade him to evacuate the city? Why one of their member declare that the Temple of N'Lahotep must be save?

jtr7
23rd Nov 2010, 21:38
And Karath-Din was looted before Garrett and the Hand Mages arrived, plus, visited by the Keepers. The Library is quite empty.

Asadar
24th Nov 2010, 22:25
Hmmm... for sure there are material to work on a scenario in relation with Karath Din and the mysterious past of the "Ancients".
I would not like Thief 4 gives too much explanation, element of mystery and freedom of interpretation are also the secret of a good script (in my opinion), but I would appreciate to discover some more about the dark and distant past that surrounds the city and its environs. And I remain convinced that the glyphs, if they really had an own will, had a very good reason for "wanting" to disappear ... or have to disappear. :rolleyes:

ChaosLad
4th Nov 2011, 05:01
aye keep the hammers and pagans and keepers.

as for anything new? how about a faction that does not have any religious feel to shake things up such as a big gang with hidden secrets amongst the crime lords

jtr7
4th Nov 2011, 05:35
....................

ChaosLad
5th Nov 2011, 12:19
yeah along those lines :)

Ibixian
21st Nov 2011, 23:38
I feel that whatever faction drives the storyline in Thief 4, it should have a strong ideology. This has been true in the previous three games and made them very interesting for me. The Hand Brotherhood is mysterious and has much potential, but the Baron could be a good way to go. The Baron might be more complex that the classic stereotype (although "will to power"could be an acceptable theme). The story of the Pagans and Hammers should continue. The Keepers should still exist to provide their unique perspective; their quotes were always thought-provoking. Besides, who better to chronicle the unwritten times?

Merchants or Thieves guild are cool, but don't seem like major plot pushers.

keeperr
22nd Nov 2011, 02:59
Yep, and they should have online modes for Xbox 360 where you play as pagans, hammerites or keepers in a deathmatch style game

Hahahahahaha thief deathmatch!:lmao:

Have you lost your mind taffer!? Go play AC! If anything do like a capture the flag/steal enemy item style multiplayer. But how would hiding work on multiplayer? I dont think it would work. You will always see the enemy. Maybe hitman or half life is more your style of game :lol:

I vote no multiplayer.

With the keepers near wiped out, the 4th game could be a fight of control with hammers, mechanists, and city guard getting out of hand turning the city back into chaos.

xDarknessFallsx
22nd Nov 2011, 06:51
In multiplayer, I want to be a guard who paces back and forth over the same 15 foot path in front of a jewelry box :) Just try to get past me undetected.

I'm sure that wouldn't be boring?

Hehe, just kidding. I think co-op has potential, but I don't really want them to build it.

Hamadriyad
22nd Nov 2011, 10:31
Observers. They are Keepers who willing to continue their duties. But since no glyphs and prophicies, they have just observe and can do nothing. They are writing them down what is happening and recording them, hopping they may useful one day.
Actually I have a short plot in my mind and Observers are part of it. :) Too bad I don't know how to do missions.

Ibixian
22nd Nov 2011, 14:18
I would like the keepers to remain relevant, perhaps continue to strive for balance despite the lack of prophecy. This new game is pretty mysterious to me, since the three major factions have been featured as the opposition already. The three major factions are also well balanced against each other, so putting in a fourth is hard to justify. Maybe a group in opposition to everything the keepers stand for... manipulating everyone to extremes so they crash and then seize power in their place? Whatever happens, I'm hoping it is more than just a series of episodic robberies.

jtr7
22nd Nov 2011, 23:22
..................

Ardent
23rd Nov 2011, 05:58
Have the Keepers split into two factions: The Watchers who choose to maintain the mission of recording without interfering and The Wardens who attempt to interpret what is known of prophecies and the like to act to promote certain outcomes (whether they believe it's to maintain the balance or not is irrelevant, the net result through accident or design is that they do). The catch is these two factions no longer share information or training and are competing for the same recruits, one of whom is once again Garrett (as one of the most accomplished alumni still alive). Both factions believe they can make use of him and try to by providing information to him to prompt him to conduct jobs.

I'd love to see the Hammerites and the Pagans back regardless of where their story is in terms of relevance to Garrett.

jtr7
23rd Nov 2011, 06:18
....................

Ibixian
23rd Nov 2011, 15:42
I completely agree that they should not be all powerful, or in charge of anything but themselves. I feel they are central to the game, and should not be killed as a faction just like the pagans and hammers continued after their obligatory nerfing. They have an important role as Garrett's informants for significant events, since all too often he has little interest in city politics. Could balance could refer to stopping anything that threatens to make the future of the city massively terrible? To take away their ideals is to kill the faction, and they don't need superpowers to have ideals.

Ardent
23rd Nov 2011, 16:17
For the Keepers to have real influence over the Balance at this point and beyond is to negate what Garrett did, and the whole point of the events of TDS.
As far as many of us are concerned, that game does not exist.

keeperr
23rd Nov 2011, 17:58
But it does, even if it wasn't very good for you. Cant ignore it now. It did answer alot of questions. And raise a few.

Platinumoxicity
23rd Nov 2011, 21:44
But it does, even if it wasn't very good for you. Cant ignore it now. It did answer alot of questions. And raise a few.

The only questions it raised for me were:

-Why are the pagans suddenly all over the City that they hate so much, and are also associating with undead, the opposite of their plantsie greensie lifesie stuff? And why are they so inconsistent, making such a fuss over a cursed hammerite statue that kills all the plants around it?

-Were the catastrophes that Garrett prevented during his life as the keeper caused by the existence of the keepers, or did the keepers really accomplish something good? Did the final glyph fix the world by ridding it of the cause of imbalance, or did it upset it by removing a force of balance?

-What happened to Garrett between Thief 2 and TDS that turned him from being outright hostile towards the keepers to being enthusiastic about the prophecies? And did it have anything to do with the fact that he also recieved a scar over his eye during that time? Or the fact that someone managed to make a sketch of Garrett's face?

-Were there any Mechanists who came to the realization that their prophet was insane, but managed to survive the hammerite heresy trials? What happened to them? Are there ex-mechanist refugees living in the slums?

-Why did the City Watch change their general image and also fire all the female officers? And if the newly promoted police commissioner Mosely did make such drastic organizational changes, how come all the newcomers to the force can recognize a specific unseen and unknown criminal, on the streets in the dark? Actually, since all the other female cops are gone, did Mosely get fired too? Even though she was the only high-ranking officer left?

-It seems Warden Ramirez is dead. Who took his place? Was there a mob war in the City that we never witnessed? Or is the war still going on? And if it is, why are the watch officers so concerned in murdering a common thief, who no one has even seen? Why is everyone looking for some urban legend who probably doesn't even exist?

-Why did Dyan get those ugly tattoos on her face? She looked much better in Thief 2. Did she want to outdo Larkspur or something? Or is it something that comes with being the highest authority in pagan circles?