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JanosAudron
29th Apr 2009, 03:10
Lets face it Squenix loves anything with a story in it hehe. I really do think that once this gets all smoothed out and Squenix is done taking everything into stride they'll start pushing the LoK series.

Truthfully however, I think we should all stop worrying about wether or not we will get another LoK game and start worrying about Umah coming back from the dead only to be killed by Janos now having hair down to the floor and a twelve foot long sword hehe.

IrishVagrant
30th Apr 2009, 01:50
I wouldn't worry much about that. (I did laugh, for the record!)

Usually 'mother company' sort of scenarios don't really push too much forceful influence onto the developers beneath them. Square more than likely moved to rescue Eidos because they want a firmer foothold overseas and trust a stellar company like Eidos to dig it for them. The gaming industry is thriving more outside Japan than within at the moment, and they smartly looked to a solid investment to help them out.

If anything, though, I'd say don't hold your breath regardless. It's been over five years since the last time Kain graced our television screens anew. That's not to say he'll never be back, but I'm not sure Square-Enix acquiring Eidos will change things regardless.

Rivenmjk
30th Apr 2009, 03:57
squenix?? oh wait you mean Squeeeeenix...

i do hope for a final game tho to cap the series for good.

btw squeenix = LOL...

come to think of it i can now see moebutt pushing tissue adverts now with that name....(some of ya will get the reference.)
XD

larson_1988
1st May 2009, 00:32
I really hope Square Enix will allow for a 6th LOK game, it's sorely needed.

fneh
1st May 2009, 14:16
Does anyone know exactly how popular the LOK games were in japan to begin with?

VipericVampire
2nd May 2009, 02:00
Truthfully however, I think we should all stop worrying about wether or not we will get another LoK game and start worrying about Umah coming back from the dead only to be killed by Janos now having hair down to the floor and a twelve foot long sword hehe.

Well said! :D :lol:

ammon
10th May 2009, 13:19
Does anyone know exactly how popular the LOK games were in japan to begin with?

that is a very good question! because if it is/was popular out there then SquareEnix might be motivated to get on E/CD's backs for another LOK.
but we only know that Blood Omen was released, so we should alos ask if any other LOK titles graced their shores? (or were they like us when we were waiting for any of the FF titles?)

(i'm going abit off-topic here)
but apart from Eidos have an influx of money (did they get any?? ) what are the benefits of Squares take over? for them it's a western publisher and development studios....
for us...a change in the forum lookout :nut: :rasp: and more emoticons :lmao:

...side note....where is Umah the Moderator of doom? :lol:

JanosAudron
11th May 2009, 02:13
Until we see it the benefits have to be hoped for. Considering the compelling story however I would wager chances are good Squenix will give the game huge consideration.

As to your side note you should check one of my earlier posts...

Umah is afraid of the reaver blade that why she doesnt speak to us anymore hehe.

Linikratyo
12th May 2009, 18:44
I thought of these three options a long while ago:
There are three things that could happen:

Square Enix makes a new LoK RPG very flashy and Kain with pointy hair like this:
http://lunascythedragon.deviantart.com/art/raziel-in-kingdom-hearts-style-91064347

Eidos uses the money it got from Square Enix to create a LoK 6 worthy of the rest of the series.

Eidos and Square Enix don't think about LoK and we have to wait another 6 years for a new one...

Umah Bloodomen
18th May 2009, 21:23
...side note....where is Umah the Moderator of doom? :lol:

Lurking around as usual. ;)

JanosAudron
19th May 2009, 03:10
Hehe I see your alive too. Well sort of anyway lol.

fneh
20th May 2009, 18:46
still interested as to how good (or bad) LOK sales were in japan.

I think it's rediculous that ppl think SE qould release an "anime styled" LOK game. They already have more games in the works than they can possibly release over the next 5 years. They don't NEED to makes games for other ppl.
IF a LOK game was to come from SE buying eidos, it would be done on a completely "stop making so many tomb raider titles and bring this series back for another go" basis. Maybe it'd mean the title had a bigger budget than previously.

Either way, I can only see it as a good thing for LOK.
Let's face it - eidos aren't doing anything with the series..

Rivenmjk
20th May 2009, 23:17
Either way, I can only see it as a good thing for LOK.
Let's face it - eidos aren't doing anything with the series..

I couldn't agree with you more my friend!

even if it does become like KH or FF it's still LOK and all that matters is story and voices.(to me anyway)
;)

Razielhunter
21st May 2009, 07:10
I too hope for a new LOK game!
But i think its hard at the moment for square enix to start a new project... they are finishing FF-XIII and they are also after KH3!
Also do not forget that even if we get an anouncement for a new LOK game we will have to wait a long time before it finishes......... don´t forget that square enix usually delays her games :P.

ChocolateRob
13th Sep 2009, 18:54
I have thought that there is a thematic link between the LoK and Final Fantasy however. FFVII, IX, X the and spirits within movie are all concerned with the cycle of souls, be it a lifestream or Gaia theory. If you think of the Elder God as being a parasite on the wheel of fate/lifestream/gaia as raziel does then he is sharing similarities with Sephiroth or other FF badies. Don't need to kill him with the reaver; one good Alexander summon should do the trick.

I've also thought that SR1 could do with a more RPG style level up system in a remake. When Raziel devours the soul of a lesser vampire he would gain a limited skill then a full version when he consumes a Boss.
e.g. Resistance to water from a lesser Rahabim vampire allowing surface swimming which improves with stronger enemies until consuming Rahab himself gains you the ability to swim to depths and actually fight underwater. or
Material wall climbing from lesser Zephonim, faster wall climbing in material and spectral from Zephon. and
Health upgrades gained by consuming gradually stronger Dumahim. (that crappy spectral band can be dropped.) This way the increased health matches the story rather than illogically scattered artifacts.
This idea came from looking at the way you get the force projectile from an artifact. It would have made more sense to get it from the soul of the freshly defeated lesser Turelim as you get the full TK power from Turel in Defiance. It's also annoying that you can't fight underwater.

Devils@Dusk
13th Sep 2009, 21:04
There is only one thing that worries me with squenix. That they put those bloody turned based fights into LOK. Along with first shooters, turned based fighting (FF Style) really gets on my nerves. (I would have said worse, but i don't want to make an enemy out of the lovely moderator.)
It'll be the only thing that could EVER put me off of a game.

BTW... i was thinking what'll happen to the Elder God?
I mean, because of Tony Jay. Would they replace him?
To me, there will only ever be one Squid.

(That reminds me forget Square Enix, if they do a LoK game, i'll be calling them Squid Enix! Sorry!)

Vampmaster
17th Sep 2009, 20:07
I really don't think enix are just going to turn every game they get their hands on info a final fantasy clone. The FF games are only enix games I've played, but I know they've done other types of games than turn based RPGs.

OugaBooga1
16th Jan 2010, 09:49
lol, 4-5 yrs ago i mentioned stuff like combining RPG & FPS elements & ppl bashed me for it, now i see ppl so desperate that they'll take ANY game style just so there's another LoK.
you guys make me LoL.

All also mentioned yrs ago that LoK should be sold to some1 else that's going to do good things with it & here we are with SE as the new owner, HURRAY HURRAY, finally the LoK crypt will creek open.
funny how the bashers have no foresight.

Paradoks
16th Jan 2010, 11:26
lol, 4-5 yrs ago i mentioned stuff like combining RPG & FPS elements & ppl bashed me for it, now i see ppl so desperate that they'll take ANY game style just so there's another LoK.
you guys make me LoL.

I think you are making a big mistake by assuming that fans will buy anything that has LoK written on the cover - BO2 was a hard lesson. And I sure would not buy Legacy of Kain: Bat Racing :rasp:.

OugaBooga1
16th Jan 2010, 15:20
I think you are making a big mistake by assuming that fans will buy anything that has LoK written on the cover - BO2 was a hard lesson. And I sure would not buy Legacy of Kain: Bat Racing :rasp:.

BO2 was a hard lesson but after a while it grew on me once i realised there wasn't going to be another release after defiance.
I am not saying there won't be since SE is now incharge but when you're really REALLY hungry you start to appreciate stuff more.
I predict the next LoK will be as different as BO2 was back then.Not always a bad thing.:wave:

Paradoks
17th Jan 2010, 08:47
BO2 was a hard lesson but after a while it grew on me once i realised there wasn't going to be another release after defiance.
It didn't grow on me even after finishing it multiple times. While I think the game itself is actually good (dark gift were nicely incorporated into gameplay and I really loved stealth-kills), in my opinion the designers completely ruined the aspects that have always been the strong points of the series - the atmosphere, the story and (especially) the dialogue.
In short - I think it is a good game, but not a good LoK title - exact opposite of SR2 which in turn suffered from some unfortunate design decisions.

I am not saying there won't be since SE is now incharge but when you're really REALLY hungry you start to appreciate stuff more.
I predict the next LoK will be as different as BO2 was back then.Not always a bad thing.:wave:
Change is not necessarily a bad thing. Even Amy Hennig admitted in one of the recent interviews that the series "would have to be reinvented a bit at this point". I don't have a problem with it - many risky choices have been made in Defiance and I still love that game (even if I think that not all changes were for the better).
But that doesn't mean that I will buy a new LoK tile (assuming there is one) just because there was no new game in the franchise for several years. If I don't like the changes and get the feeling that designers failed to capture the spirit of the series - then I will refuse to buy it and I will declare that the series died for me with Defiance.

Linikratyo
17th Jan 2010, 11:01
It didn't grow on me even after finishing it multiple times. While I think the game itself is actually good (dark gift were nicely incorporated into gameplay and I really loved stealth-kills), in my opinion the designers completely ruined the aspects that have always been the strong points of the series - the atmosphere, the story and (especially) the dialogue.

I think though that the atmosphere was one of the best games in BO2, it has the dark atmosphere that BO had too. I truly loved it.
The story definitely should have been better.
The dialogue had it's strong points, but there was spent too little time on it I think.

Paradoks
20th Jan 2010, 17:17
I think though that the atmosphere was one of the best games in BO2, it has the dark atmosphere that BO had too. I truly loved it.
My main problem was, that it was too different to what I experienced in previous games. I wouldn't have anything against it if the game was called "Blood Rudolph the vampire" :p, but it wasn't.
Levels in Meridian were fine (except the fact that Meridian appeared to be shameless copy/paste of the City in Thief games). What for me felt completely out of place was the Device and Hylden City - I think that art style in those levels and SF elements didn't fit at all into LoK title.

The story definitely should have been better.
Yes, it should have been. The main plot once again seems surprisingly similar to the one we see in Thief 2: the Metal Age - it just isn't executed that well.
Deus ex machina trick was overused (I'm particularly referring to the Nexus Stone - a very powerful artefact that no one heard about before, that was conveniently discovered at the same time that Kain woke up from his 200 year long nap).
Things that don't have any explanation (at least I can't think of any): Janos for example - "Let us go to Sanctuary. Vorador must be informed of all that has occurred". How does he know where the Sanctuary is? How does he even know that Vorador is alive?

The dialogue had it's strong points, but there was spent too little time on it I think.
I had problems in finding strong points. Take a random quote from Soul Reaver 1 or 2 - there is a big chance it will fit into "memorable video-game quotes" category. Now try doing the same thing with Blood Omen 2 - I am afraid that results may be rather disappointing.
It was too simple - Kain, you have to find a way inside; Kain, you have to turn the switch; Kain, you have to kill the guards. Some parts of the awkward dialogue could have been easily avoided - "When your path is blocked, seek for a place to jump" :rolleyes:. It felt exactly like what René Auberjonois said in SR2 out-takes: "Go through that door! Don't go through that door! Hey ____, don't go through that door!"

Then there are terribly cheesy lines that made me feel sick:
Let's take a look at Sebastian:
"You haven't the smallest chance of defeating me."
"Getting dizzy, Kain?"
:mad2:

And then we have the chat with Marcus:
- ...the Sarafan Lord will be pleased with my new slave.
Now, obey me.
What??:confused: Impossible!! :eek:
-What manner of creatures have you been practising on? Dull mortal fools, with their minds full of commerce and dung? My mind is far too strong for your powers.
:mad2:

I actually got killed by the monks without a fight at that point, because I was staring at the monitor, trying to figure out how they could possibly write something that bad.

Kain himself was portrayed as an angry teenager, stating things that contradict what has been shown in previous games:
"Divine? Your imprisonment has damaged your mind, Janos. The curse of vampirism is no mark of divinity."
Really? Wasn't it Kain who said:
"...I realized that Vorador was correct. We are gods - dark - gods..."?

I am sorry for the aggressive tone, this post is not meant to be offensive. I am just being honest and try to point out things that I felt were wrong. BO2 was simply the biggest disappointment in 20 years of my gaming experience.

Rivenmjk
21st Jan 2010, 06:39
Things that don't have any explanation (at least I can't think of any): Janos for example - "Let us go to Sanctuary. Vorador must be informed of all that has occurred". How does he know where the Sanctuary is? How does he even know that Vorador is alive?

exactly what i was thinking...and how does Janos know kain is the scion of balance??


Kain himself was portrayed as an angry teenager, stating things that contradict what has been shown in previous games:
"Divine? Your imprisonment has damaged your mind, Janos. The curse of vampirism is no mark of divinity."
Really? Wasn't it Kain who said:
"...I realized that Vorador was correct. We are gods - dark - gods..."?

yeah if reminds me like how raziel changes his perspective on things in SR2...



And then we have the chat with Marcus:
-What manner of creatures have you been practising on? Dull mortal fools, with their minds full of commerce and dung? My mind is far too strong for your powers.

that actually is very Kainy IMO.
that quote had my sides hurting...one of the best lines in the game i think.
LOL

Linikratyo
21st Jan 2010, 14:11
What for me felt completely out of place was the Device and Hylden City - I think that art style in those levels and SF elements didn't fit at all into LoK title.
That's not because it isn't Nosgothic. The problem is is that in Soul Reaver 2 and Defiance you only see human and vampire architecture. In Blood Omen 2 you get into two Hylden Bastions: The Device and the Hylden City. In any other LoK game you simply don't have Hylden Bastions. It's that simple. If it would have been the same style as Meridian or the Sarafan Stronghold then they would have been stupid, but I loved the Hylden bases. :D



Yes, it should have been. The main plot once again seems surprisingly similar to the one we see in Thief 2: the Metal Age - it just isn't executed that well.
Deus ex machina trick was overused (I'm particularly referring to the Nexus Stone - a very powerful artefact that no one heard about before, that was conveniently discovered at the same time that Kain woke up from his 200 year long nap).
I think though that the Nexus stone makes a nice add to the story. There hasn't been explained much about it and its origin remains a mystery, but perhaps that's something to cover in future games.


Things that don't have any explanation (at least I can't think of any): Janos for example - "Let us go to Sanctuary. Vorador must be informed of all that has occurred". How does he know where the Sanctuary is? How does he even know that Vorador is alive?
Very true indeed


I had problems in finding strong points. Take a random quote from Soul Reaver 1 or 2 - there is a big chance it will fit into "memorable video-game quotes" category. Now try doing the same thing with Blood Omen 2 - I am afraid that results may be rather disappointing.
It was too simple - Kain, you have to find a way inside; Kain, you have to turn the switch; Kain, you have to kill the guards. Some parts of the awkward dialogue could have been easily avoided - "When your path is blocked, seek for a place to jump" :rolleyes:. It felt exactly like what René Auberjonois said in SR2 out-takes: "Go through that door! Don't go through that door! Hey ____, don't go through that door!"

:lol::lol:
Strong points in dialogue:
From the shards of tattered dreams I rose, unwilling, tossed upon tides of pain that flowed and ebbed, and left me – searingly – awake, and – more revoltingly – alive.~Kain

This is a place where those who have transgressed the laws of the gods and man, and so have created a dangerous imbalance within themselves, contemplate the wrongs that they have done, through peaceful, uninterrupted meditation, until they have regained the balance of their true, perfect inner nature. This process must not be interrupted for any reason, until a spiritual transformation has been achieved, however long that may take. Thus, no guests, no visitors, are allowed. And intruders, we know how to deal with. Go. Now.~Eternal Prison

Bathe them in fire. Let them learn as they writhe in the flames and their bones dissolve, the futility of their actions. The vampire, and all of his kind, shall be razed from the land.~The Sarafan Lord

Shall I ease your mind and tell you I am sent by Vorador for the vampire resistance? Or shall I simply tear out your throat and continue my search? I leave the decision to you.~Kain

My mind was in fragments, like shattered glass.~Kain

The fiend that dogged my shadow showed himself at last, and in the light, I knew him. Another visage from my past…~Kain


Then there are terribly cheesy lines that made me feel sick:
Let's take a look at Sebastian:
"You haven't the smallest chance of defeating me."
"Getting dizzy, Kain?"
:mad2:
Oh me and my brother used to make soooo much fun of Sebastian :lol:


I am sorry for the aggressive tone, this post is not meant to be offensive. I am just being honest and try to point out things that I felt were wrong. BO2 was simply the biggest disappointment in 20 years of my gaming experience.
Oh it doesn't sound very aggressive to me xD. I got introduced to LoK with BO2 when I was like 8 and it was my first vampire game (and I LOVED vampires back then(although I still do though not as much as then)) and I thought it was pure awesomeness. One time I lost and I searched till I died to find a new copy o_O
Now if not for BO2, I would never have known LoK. It was Kain almost beheading someone with the Soul Reaver that made it look awesome. Any other cover would simply not have caught my attention :p

Now, let's turn this into a cheesy LoK quote thread!
Go, my friend. Be free. As the rest of us, living or dead, can never be.~Kain
That one never made sense to me :nut:

Escaton
21st Jan 2010, 17:05
"Divine? Your imprisonment has damaged your mind, Janos. The curse of vampirism is no mark of divinity."

Yes, that was easily the worst line in the entire series as it is fundamentally unfaithful to Blood Omen 1. I've read the script a few times, and just about every perceived defect in BO2's Kain's personality can be explained or reasoned except this one. I do like Blood Omen 2, but that line was just about heretical. The only way to rationalise it is to assume Kain's original opinion of vampirism was altered after the SR2 paradox.

As for Janos knowing all about Kain and his role, I guess that it can be assumed he simply heard about Kain from his Hylden captors and put two and two together. Janos never discusses Kain in the SR games or Defiance, so maybe he knew all along. He seems a little irrationally omnipotent at times. Perhaps he can read minds?

Linikratyo
21st Jan 2010, 20:26
As for Janos knowing all about Kain and his role, I guess that it can be assumed he simply heard about Kain from his Hylden captors and put two and two together. Janos never discusses Kain in the SR games or Defiance, so maybe he knew all along. He seems a little irrationally omnipotent at times. Perhaps he can read minds?

He saw Raziel and he immediately knew it was him, he probably could so too with Kain.

The_Hylden
21st Jan 2010, 20:41
And he had to have also seen the mural depicting Kain as the Scion of Balance. I believe he knew Kain would be the Scion, but Kain wouldn't start out as that. As he says, there is one who will be "called" in Defiance, now that the Balance was failing. Janos misread the other murals, but this one he seems to have understood.

And I don't think the line Kain speaks about vampirism not being a mark of divinity goes in any way, shape, or form against Blood Omen 1. Kain knew he was still a damned being, but embraced it. He thought of himself as a dark god, but that's not indicative of the word divine, which has a more pure and holy connotation. And this is also 400 years after coming to that conclusion. By SR era, whether you take SR1's end speech, or the revised version in SR2's intro, Kain has modified his approach a bit. Saying there that he and Raziel have become "like" Gods, but not saying they were Gods. Anyway, semantics, perhaps, but I don't feel BO2's line there betrays the character. It's just Kain making a distinction that they, as vampires, are still cursed, and are not the holy icons Janos is claiming them to be.

Rivenmjk
21st Jan 2010, 21:33
It's just Kain making a distinction that they, as vampires, are still cursed, and are not the holy icons Janos is claiming them to be.

That's exactly how i interpreted the line as well.

man I couldn't have said it better myself!

Escaton
21st Jan 2010, 21:57
He speaks with a tone of incredulous contempt as though he feels there's no way Vampires are remotely comparable with gods. A major theme in BO1 is the question of whether vampirism is a curse or blessing and we're all aware which conclusion Kain came to on that dilemma by the game's end. I don't have the same lynch mob-style attitude to BO2 a lot of fans share, but I feel that for Kain to call it a curse at all - with no knowledge of the Ancient-Hylden war to boot - takes more than reinterpretation to explain away.

Paradoks
22nd Jan 2010, 02:46
I am sorry in advance for using sarcasm - it's just my way of having a discussion. It's stronger than me :( :flowers:.

That's not because it isn't Nosgothic. The problem is is that in Soul Reaver 2 and Defiance you only see human and vampire architecture. In Blood Omen 2 you get into two Hylden Bastions: The Device and the Hylden City. In any other LoK game you simply don't have Hylden Bastions. It's that simple. If it would have been the same style as Meridian or the Sarafan Stronghold then they would have been stupid, but I loved the Hylden bases. :D
I don't think it's that simple ;). While I agree that Hylden bastions looking like human or vampire structures would be a big mistake, I still think it wasn't handled properly. I will use a little (:whistle:) exaggerated example. Would you still like the style the artists used in BO2, if the hylden wore pink dresses, dark glasses and attacked you with teddy bears (these teddy bears would still have claws, so they would be very effective weapons :rasp:)? We haven't seen hylden weapons before, so I assume it would be possible. In other, more serious words - I think that BO2 lacks consistency of artistic direction. The contrast within the game is one thing - what is more important is that BO2 introduced a contrast within the series. I don't have a problem with hylden structures being different - I have a problem with them being too different. The ruined Nosgoth in SR1, although depicted differently in comparison to what we saw in BO1, in my opinion managed to keep a similar feel. Look at Forges in SR2. They are clearly different to human structures, but they still fit into the setting. While I think that architectural styles were perhaps too diverse (Forges were probably built in rather close time intervals), they didn't (for me at least) feel out of place. When I entered the Device I felt like I just entered a completely different game.

I think though that the Nexus stone makes a nice add to the story. There hasn't been explained much about it and its origin remains a mystery, but perhaps that's something to cover in future games.
I don't mean that the stone itself is a problem - it's the way it was used in the story. It appeared out of nowhere, nobody mentioned it before and resistance found it exactly at the time that Kain could retrieve it. Apparently they weren't looking hard enough for the last 200 years. It looked like easiest solution in the story. Kain needs to be weak at the beginning of the game for game-play reasons, but he is quite powerful at the end BO1. How do you stop a very powerful vampire with ultimate soul-devouring sword? Off course - you make an artefact that disables the ultimate soul-devouring sword. We (or hopefully different development team) will worry about the small details like it's nature or origin later.

Strong points in dialogue:
From the shards of tattered dreams I rose, unwilling, tossed upon tides of pain that flowed and ebbed, and left me – searingly – awake, and – more revoltingly – alive.~Kain
I agree - this is indeed a strong point.

This is a place where those who have transgressed the laws of the gods and man, and so have created a dangerous imbalance within themselves, contemplate the wrongs that they have done, through peaceful, uninterrupted meditation, until they have regained the balance of their true, perfect inner nature. This process must not be interrupted for any reason, until a spiritual transformation has been achieved, however long that may take.
Yes, Eternal Prison. Another place, that no one heard about, seen it, or knows it's origin or purpose (because I'm sure it wasn't "regaining balance through peaceful, uninterrupted meditation"). I don't really see interesting parts in this text except...

Thus, no guests, no visitors, are allowed.
It almost feels like reading Terry Pratchett's book (I love his books, but somehow I can't imagine him writing anything LoK related).

The vampire, and all of his kind, shall be razed from the land.~The Sarafan Lord
Did anyone order cheese? :p

Shall I ease your mind and tell you I am sent by Vorador for the vampire resistance? Or shall I simply tear out your throat and continue my search? I leave the decision to you.~Kain
I don't think that revealing the name of the mysterious leader, who could not be named for 3 chapters "for secrecy's sake", to a random mortal that can be working for the Sarafan was reasonable :whistle:. The remaining part of the text was good however.

My mind was in fragments, like shattered glass.~Kain
Good quote.

The fiend that dogged my shadow showed himself at last, and in the light, I knew him. Another visage from my past…~Kain
I would suspect that Kain would actually be able to see in the dark. In the lower city Sebastian wasn't exactly "hidden". The quote itself is not bad, but I wouldn't consider it a strong point.


Oh me and my brother used to make soooo much fun of Sebastian :lol:

I still can't believe that Kain would use such an idiot as a general in his army. I understand using him as a mine detector but a general? ;)


I got introduced to LoK with BO2 when I was like 8 and it was my first vampire game (and I LOVED vampires back then(although I still do though not as much as then)) and I thought it was pure awesomeness.

It seems common that people look at the game that introduced them to the series in a slightly different way. I know it is like this in my case - I still consider SR1 as the pinnacle of the series. :D




And he had to have also seen the mural depicting Kain as the Scion of Balance. I believe he knew Kain would be the Scion, but Kain wouldn't start out as that. As he says, there is one who will be "called" in Defiance, now that the Balance was failing. Janos misread the other murals, but this one he seems to have understood.
Janos definitely knew something about Kain's nature. However I don't know how he learned about Kain's fall, and at the same time time did not learn about his return. The only explanation I can think of is that the hylden told him about it, to kill all hope he may have left. On a side note - I didn't like the fact that these ancient prophecies were precise enough to give the names of characters involved (Janos addressed Raziel by name during their first meeting), and yet so cryptic that everyone kept misinterpreting them.


And I don't think the line Kain speaks about vampirism not being a mark of divinity goes in any way, shape, or form against Blood Omen 1. Kain knew he was still a damned being, but embraced it. He thought of himself as a dark god, but that's not indicative of the word divine, which has a more pure and holy connotation. And this is also 400 years after coming to that conclusion. By SR era, whether you take SR1's end speech, or the revised version in SR2's intro, Kain has modified his approach a bit. Saying there that he and Raziel have become "like" Gods, but not saying they were Gods. Anyway, semantics, perhaps, but I don't feel BO2's line there betrays the character. It's just Kain making a distinction that they, as vampires, are still cursed, and are not the holy icons Janos is claiming them to be.
Personally I don't see much difference between someone calling themselves a god, and someone calling themselves divine. In my language these words have the same core (bóg/boski), and the first case actually has more "powerful" tone. But that's not my point.
Kain uses the phrase "Your imprisonment has damaged your mind, Janos". He sees using a term divinity for vampirism as a sign of insanity, even though he proclaimed himself a god four centuries earlier. Even Janos doesn't go that far: "long before I first walked the earth, vampires were godlike". Only in BO2 does Kain call vampirism a curse (in first dialogue with Sebastian). In Defiance he says: "for my ancient ancestors, the dark gift was clearly a curse". He avoids calling it a curse himself. And there is SR1 intro, where Raziel says that in time they became more divine. If lieutenants considered themselves divine, I doubt their "deified" master would think of himself as something less important. Finally - SR1 outro/SR2 intro and becoming like gods. Even if we assume that Kain's speech at the end was not exaggerated (and I think it was), I find it more likely that he made a 30 degree turn in his beliefs rather than a 360.
Yes - Kain did have doubts about his nature in BO1. It is clearly visible in his description of Vorador: "I found something worse than hell. A vision of what I was becoming". But that is why we have a choice at the end of the game. That choice has been made, and in the ending monologue there is no doubt or remorse - vampires are gods or something close enough, and should rule the world with an iron fist.

Funny how this thread is called "Squenix and LoK series". We seem to have gone "slightly" off-topic :whistle:. Perhaps this discussion can be moved to a separate thread.

The_Hylden
22nd Jan 2010, 06:35
Wow, and I thought I liked to quote :rolleyes:

:p

But, since it's being further brought up, I'll address it. I'm going to look at the quote with Janos' previous line in context.

Janos:

Not dead, but imprisoned in this place. My blood was needed to power the Device and feed the Mass within. Starved of blood and sapped of life, I devolved into that horrible creature. The moment you poisoned the Mass, I felt my strength return. That which is divine cannot be wholly suppressed.

Kain:

Divine? Your imprisonment has damaged your mind, Janos. The curse of vampirism is no mark of divinity.

Again, mark of divinity. The way the word is being used (and it does have more than one meaning) by both Janos and Kain, it is implying that vampires are pure and holy, while Janos also is pretty much saying vampires are invincible. However, just sticking to the usage of the word divine:



–adjective
1. of or pertaining to a god, esp. the Supreme Being.
2. addressed, appropriated, or devoted to God or a god; religious; sacred: divine worship.
3. proceeding from God or a god: divine laws.
4. godlike; characteristic of or befitting a deity: divine magnanimity.
5. heavenly; celestial: the divine kingdom.
6. Informal. extremely good; unusually lovely: He has the most divine tenor voice.
7. being a god; being God: a divine person.
8. of superhuman or surpassing excellence: Beauty is divine.
9. Obsolete. of or pertaining to divinity or theology.
–noun
10. a theologian; scholar in religion.
11. a priest or member of the clergy.
12. the Divine,
a. God.
b. (sometimes lowercase) the spiritual aspect of humans; the group of attributes and qualities of humankind regarded as godly or godlike.
–verb (used with object)
13. to discover or declare (something obscure or in the future) by divination; prophesy.
14. to discover (water, metal, etc.) by means of a divining rod.
15. to perceive by intuition or insight; conjecture.
16. Archaic. to portend.
–verb (used without object)
17. to use or practice divination; prophesy.
18. to have perception by intuition or insight; conjecture.
Origin:
1275–1325; ME < L dīvīnus, equiv. to dīv(us) god + -īnus -ine 1 ; r. ME devin(e) < OF devin < L, as above

Related forms:
di⋅vin⋅a⋅ble, adjective
di⋅vine⋅ly, adverb
di⋅vine⋅ness, noun

Synonyms:
13, 17. foretell, predict, foresee, forecast. 15, 18. discern, understand.

Antonyms:
5. worldly, mundane.

As we can see, the word divine has many meanings, but the God-like quality it is often thought of as is celestial, holy, pure, good. All of these characteristics go quite against Kain's interpretation of the Dark God he might have thought himself as. And, I will state again, this is 400 years later. Kain may have not come across the prophecy, or any murals as of yet, but he has had these many years to think further on what he once concluded himself to be. Perhaps now he believes himself cursed, damned, but still a force that rivals a God, which is much more in-keeping with how he thinks of himself later on as Elder Kain. I think Kain is allowed to change his point of view on matters, especially if it still works as a point in the series. It's not a betrayal of his own character to have him do this. He's still brash and quite arrogant here in the timeline, but he has had time (forcibly so, after his encounter with the Hylden lord the first time) to reflect. Nearly dying should also be something that affected his thinking. He's lost some memory, and nearly his life. A God certainly wouldn't fall so easily. This may be in the back of his brain, if not at the forefront. Or, perhaps not, but at least you can see the possibility of this, I hope (or something to the same affect).

One_Winged_Angel
24th Jan 2010, 00:04
Personally I think the exchange between Janos and Kain is there to show their different opinions on vampirism based on their own origins.

Of course Janos is going to say Divine, he's an Ancient, they thought they were the highest creatures in Nosgoth, only below the Elder God.

Kain calls it a curse because he was brought back from the dead via necromancy, just to be thrown into the middle of a twisted plot and manipulated constantly.

I think it basically comes down to, Janos was born to a proud race, while Kain was brought into a hunted and despised one.

Just my 2 cents.

dumah's wraith
24th Jan 2010, 00:11
Kain has lost most of his memories. His worldview is a litte confused.

As for the Nexus stone, its discovery was pretty convenient, but it could be explained as something like this.

Sarafan Lord: Kain's awake. I'd better send some extra guards to the Industrial Quarter, don't want him using the stone against me.

Umah: Oooh, more guards than usual. He's up to something. Better investigate.

Pretty flimsy I know.

Is Janos referring to vampirism in that quote. He could just be saying 'I'm AWESOME!'

The eternal prison seems to have been made by the Ancients during the war, seeing as the Builder was there. Although that doesn't explain the Moebius statue.

Sebastian wasn't a vampiric general. That's the point. He betrayed Kain because the Sarafan Lord 'knows how to value me'. Marcus was apparently a close friend (though not close enough), while Faustus was a 'legionnaire', which to me implies foot soldier. The boss battles weren't all his former officers.

Edit: I agree completely with the previous post.

One_Winged_Angel
24th Jan 2010, 00:25
Is Janos referring to vampirism in that quote. He could just be saying 'I'm AWESOME!'


Wouldn't surprise me, he wouldn't want to directly say awesome for fear of Kain's violent response.

Paradoks
24th Jan 2010, 21:03
Wow, and I thought I liked to quote :rolleyes:

:p

Maybe it's contagious ;).


As we can see, the word divine has many meanings, but the God-like quality it is often thought of as is celestial, holy, pure, good. All of these characteristics go quite against Kain's interpretation of the Dark God he might have thought himself as.
I realise that word divine has different meanings, but I don't see how you can state that it is associated with holiness and purity, and at the same time state that the word "God" is not. Maybe it's the language barrier, but I just don't see the point.

circa 1300, from Old French devin, from Latin divinus "of a god," from divus "a god," related to deus "god, deity" (see Zeus). Weakened sense of "excellent" had evolved by late 15c.

I assume that if Kain interpreted the term god/dark god in his own twisted way (which he obviously did), then he would probably interpret the word "divine" in a similar way.
And once again I point to Raziel using that word in SR1 intro.


Nearly dying should also be something that affected his thinking. He's lost some memory, and nearly his life. A God certainly wouldn't fall so easily. This may be in the back of his brain, if not at the forefront. Or, perhaps not, but at least you can see the possibility of this, I hope (or something to the same affect).
I see the possibility of Kain changing his view. For me It just seems very unlikely in this case. Neither his duel with Malek nor being manipulated by Mobieus stopped him from reaching his conclusion at the end of BO1 - I don't see how being defeated would alter his opinion so drastically. He calls vampirism a curse twice in BO2 - he never does this in any other game. I wouldn't mind this change if it had a proper explanation, but there is no plain explanation - only theories.

And I still feel that Kain wasn't portrayed properly in BO2:

Tell me where to find the Sarafan Lord. I'll have him buried within the hour!
There is a difference between boundless arrogance and suicidal bravado.

It's just my view on this matter. It seems like it's me versus the rest of the world so I'll just stay quiet now ;).

The_Hylden
26th Jan 2010, 04:49
Maybe it's contagious ;).

I realise that word divine has different meanings, but I don't see how you can state that it is associated with holiness and purity, and at the same time state that the word "God" is not. Maybe it's the language barrier, but I just don't see the point.

I'm not saying the word God isn't associated with those terms, but the conjunction of Dark with God, "Dark God," veers it from the "holy," "pure," and "good" terms used to define God. I wouldn't use divine to describe a dark entity either. I wouldn't think, for instance, that a God of the Underworld, or of the Dead, is holy and pure. Nor would I believe one born of dark forces should be defined by these terms.



I assume that if Kain interpreted the term god/dark god in his own twisted way (which he obviously did), then he would probably interpret the word "divine" in a similar way.

I'm not sure what this is stating, then. There's no reason to interpret the words differently by Kain, simply to interpret what he and his race should be defined as. Either he's a Dark God, or a holy, divine one, but he doesn't consider himself both (nor, perhaps, either by the time of BO2).


And once again I point to Raziel using that word in SR1 intro.

Raziel:


Over time, he became less human and more ... divine.

That is Raziel and the other brethren, most likely, and their take on their creator at this point in time. It certainly isn't Raziel's take on Kain once he's betrayed by Kain. He comes back and blatantly states,


Damn you, Kain! You are not God! This act of genocide is unconscionable!

...in regards to hearing Kain dismiss the fate of Raziel's clan so aloofly.



I see the possibility of Kain changing his view. For me It just seems very unlikely in this case. Neither his duel with Malek nor being manipulated by Mobieus stopped him from reaching his conclusion at the end of BO1 - I don't see how being defeated would alter his opinion so drastically. He calls vampirism a curse twice in BO2 - he never does this in any other game. I wouldn't mind this change if it had a proper explanation, but there is no plain explanation - only theories.

Neither his duel, nor being manipulated by Moebius (both, Kain eventually triumps, with ease and defiance over Moebius, and with a little help from Vorador for Malek), are the same as Kain nearly losing his life and even losing part of his memory. Waking weaker than he'd probably ever felt as a vampire and having to crawl out of the sewers back to the surface, and failing to be as strong as he thought he should be in facing the Hylden Lord again (Umah having to teleport him and her away before they became Soul Reaver food), are all resounding humiliations, really, and blatant indications that Kain is nowhere near invincible. And these are theories because, as is the case with much of the series, not everything is spelled out for people. Nor do we need a story so spelled out for everything a character says, or does, imo.


And I still feel that Kain wasn't portrayed properly in BO2:

There is a difference between boundless arrogance and suicidal bravado.

I agree they pushed elements of his character, like brashness and arrogance, a bit far. The lines Kain states half the time are so extreme, they produce laughter from me. But, I enjoy it :D They're some of the most quotable lines just because of that, hehe. I don't think they betrayed the character, but they could have done some things better, sure. And that includes the above of what we're talking about. :)


It's just my view on this matter. It seems like it's me versus the rest of the world so I'll just stay quiet now ;).

No need for dramatics :p

OugaBooga1
1st Feb 2010, 06:40
there seems to never be an end to it EVEN if you knew the story was real.
It just keeps getting replayed as if trapped on a record player with the needle stuck.