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LegacyOfKayn
9th Feb 2014, 10:06
I'm sorry to say this but i'm really disapointed in the deceiver...so let me explain why:

1.The abilities...how can the zephonims devolve intro spider like creatures from mind manipulators?I mean think about the rest a little:

Melchia had the skin problem - Devolved into a human-body-made creaturue (makes sense)
Rahab had the water immuniti - Devolved into a shark like monster (makes sense)
Dumah had no particular weakneses and was a great fighter - Devolved into the vampire hercule (makes sense...somewhat)
Turel was a big hulky bat-eared vamp - Devolved into a big hulky bat-eared monster (makes sense)
Zephon the master mind manipulator - Devolved into a spider like creature? hope u get my point...

All of their abilities influenced their devolution...and zephon's mind manipulatin thing just doesn't seem right.

2.The backstab abilliti...what's that he pops out of he's hand?A mini soulreaver?A mini lightsaber?A chakra blade like from naruto universe?Maybe instead of poping out the mini chakra-soul-saber u could make him to just pop out his claws like any vampire from the LoK universe and stab the humans with them.

3.He's apperences...i agree the zephonim should be creepy and he is...but not in the good way.
I think when a player plays the vampire classes he want's to feel like an all powerfull vampire hunting the humans,not like some crazed mummy running around and stabbing them (yes i think he looks more like a mummy than a vampire).
All classes resemble their leaders so how are they resembleing this http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=153qrs6&s=8#.UvdRB85LNqw ?? (ok maybe that isn't the best image,u can google others but u get the point)
They look way more devolved than they should...i mean c'mon they almost look like the razielim and that should be imposible considering the lore.

Well that's what i wanted to say...the abilities don't fit the character (in my opinion) the mini chakra-soul-saber has to go(in my opinion) and theyr apperences have to be more humanized-vampire like rather than mummy like.

I don't try to be an ******* here i'm just saying my hones opinion,sorry if i offended anyone.

Lakdav2
9th Feb 2014, 11:03
I agree on the mini-soulreaver thingy. I have no idea how that thing fits into anything. Maybe it just needs to be obvious enough so that you see it 0.2 seconds before you are backstabbed, but thats gameplay convenience thing, not lore. And i would hate to see a gameplay convenience thing being forced into the lore.

For the looks: Slightly elongated limbs and a thin frame makes sense. They get that in SR1, this is kind of in the middle. Feeling kinda weird about the mask though. It does complete the whole mummy look.

As for the mind manipulation thing: We can just assume that the zephonim in SR1 couldnt do anything like that to Raziel because he was a vampire/unique soul-sucking thing/whatever. His mind was too strong or alien to them. Human minds are weak though.

I can also go into some weird theory that Zephon developed some kind of a insectoid hive-mind with his brood in time? Nothing based on evidence of course, but at this point, its up for grabs. If any one of the lieutenants could do it, it would be him.

I would still like to see a dev post on their lore though.

Lirka_
9th Feb 2014, 11:13
Yeah I was really wondering what that mini-reaver was too. What is it? How does that fit in the lore? I don't think we've ever seen anything like that in the games except for the Soul Reaver blade and that was Raziels soul, not some energy manipulation.
Why not have a normal blade or just use his claws like Kain could do in BO2.

Vampmaster
9th Feb 2014, 12:05
Corey said he misspoke when he called is a spectral weapon and that it's actually meant to be made of eldritch energy.

If you remember how the Zephonim clan looked in SR1 as opposed to Zephon himself, they still only had two arms and legs, but they were very long and thin. The deceivers have unusually long and thin limbs, just not to the same extent as in SR1. They seem to be evolving in the right direction physically.

Lord_Aevum
9th Feb 2014, 13:18
1.The abilities...how can the zephonims devolve intro spider like creatures from mind manipulators?

This only carries on the Zephonim clan vibe established in Soul Reaver. That was the game which portrayed Zephon as a master manipulator who devolved into a spider, in the first place.

Daniel Cabuco from the SR1 team himself says (http://comments.deviantart.com/1/320230090/2690716431), "Zephon isn't necessarily the smartest, or the best fighter, but he is one of the most cunning. Working the politics with expert precision as a spiderweb of lies. Again this eventually led to his dark gifts and mutation direction." Also (http://comments.deviantart.com/1/320230090/2690724443): "the spiderwebbing in his skin reflects his cunning nature. So making him insidious fits him perfectly."

I think it is intended to be interpreted more like this:
Zephon the scheming, insect-like master of entrapment - Devolved into a spider like creature (makes sense)

JanusDominus
9th Feb 2014, 13:23
The Deceiver has the same elongated limbs SR1 Zephonim had. And their appearance is actually awesome - I'm getting a Nosferatu vibe from this. Vampires aren't mostly about being strong and beefy. It's about being creepy creature of the night that inspires fear by his very appearance. And really, if I saw that creepy SOB coming at me, I'd run to the Chinese border. The Zephonim are mentioned to willfully control their devolution with alchemy and ritual self-mutilation. The Deceiver looks like a walking nasty lab accident and that's because he is.
As for his abilities - what exactly would you suggest for spider vamps that didn't devolve to the point of being totally spider, with webs and everything? The claws simply wouldn't work because every vampire has claws, what's the difference one claw makes? Now if they had some kind of body mutation that gave them an organic spike below the shoulder that they use for backstabbing, that would be better. After all, they are said to mutilate and mutate their kind. Yeah, that's actually a great idea. If devs are reading it, consider it a suggestion.

TendrilSavant
9th Feb 2014, 19:55
Quote from the blog (http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/alchemists-arcane-cultists-with-a-thirst-for-revenge) that hints at the Deceivers design (posted by Monkeythumbz here (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=8484&p=78106#post78106)):

The Zephonim in particular, eager to compete in raw power with the elder Clans, attempted to artificially shape and force their metamorphoses through ritual self-torture, alchemical engineering and twisted breeding programs.

It's very likely that while spying on his brothers, seeing their vampiric prowess found his own evolution lacking. It would make sense that Zephon, the scheming borther, would force his evolution to ready his clan for whatever grand plan he had in mind. If that meant becoming more monster than vampire, I don't think he would have a problem with that.

As far as the spectral blade (or whatever they end up calling it later), remember that vampires pre-SR1 have access to dark gifts, ancient magic and alchemy that is native to Nosgoth. I don't think that vampires in SR1 aren't capable of magic, it's probably that they have gone uncontested for so long that there is no need to exert themselves with spells at that point in time.

LegacyOfKayn
9th Feb 2014, 20:32
Tendril that spell looks way too SF...it looks like an lightsaber from star wars or something...it just doesn't fit the nosgoth universe.
It doesn't matter how mutch lore u put to a spell,if it doesn't fit u get rid of it.
Lets put an alien ship with laser cannos in the game and say that the humans just discovered under an aincient ruin of their ancestors how that sounds?

Lord_Aevum
9th Feb 2014, 21:09
Lets put an alien ship with laser cannos in the game and say that the humans just discovered under an aincient ruin of their ancestors how that sounds?

Sounds like the final chapter of Blood Omen 2. :nut:

RainaAudron
9th Feb 2014, 21:40
+1 Aevum :lol:

Sluagh
9th Feb 2014, 22:23
I like the appearance. I love the run he does, it looks really good. But yeah I am unsure about this eldritch energy weapon stuff - sounds a bit strange. However, there's been a lot of curious creatures throughout the games with all sorts of different weapons (blades, tk, arrows, fireballs, poison-spit, magical blasts), as long as they justify it in lore well enough (firstly not being some kind of SR inspiration, secondly, relating in some way to what's come come before), it should be good.

Badmojoman
10th Feb 2014, 02:16
The deceiver is kinda cool on its own merits, but does not feel like he is really part of clan Zephonim. I'm a little disappointed about the lacking of climbing related evolution in him. He is definitely very Spy inspired from Team Fortress, but is unique enough to carry himself.

In terms of gameplay adding him makes perfect sense to diversify the roster, he has a unique skill set and style, but lore wise he needs a little back story and context to back him up. The nether wrist blade is definitely somewhat far fetched.

VVZigel
10th Feb 2014, 03:43
I think that this little weapon of theirs is getting too much attention. After all - the game featured living shadows(BO, SR2,LoK: D) able to shapeshift into what-not, ghosts, lycanthropes and one very naughty puppet-master and yet I see noone asking "Why I can't have skin-tearing shurikens on my Tyrant?!". I, for once, find their new look very appealing and their weapon quite glorious. Being one of the very few creatures able to utilize magic in this universe I find their ghosts-blades, or whatever these are, to be at home on these shifty creatures.

GenFeelGood
10th Feb 2014, 05:47
With regard to their form, we need to remember that the Zephonim we see is essentially a fledgling that has been forced through these experiments by his clan to, shall we say, go through puberty quicker than he naturally would, so he is gonna be a little disfigured. Don't worry, he'll eventually grow into the changes and out of that back brace that seems to helps him support, what appears to be, an artificially elongated spine. He will eventually become the tall beanpole that we know from Soul Reaver and quicker than he would normally which would have been the point of the experimental procedures.

As for the powers, I'll admit I'm not a fan of the energy blade just because it doesn't feel all that kosher to the LoK universe and a simple blade or bone spike, maybe brought about by one of these experiments, would easily do the trick. As for the the mental powers, I'll admit they we never clearly seen in Soul Reaver by Zephon or his clan. However, there is nothing to suggest that they didn't have these power so its really another grey area in the lore where some wiggle room exists. Plus mental abilities have been established in the lore of the series since Blood Omen so its actually quite kosher from where I'm sitting.

Lakdav2
10th Feb 2014, 08:07
Thinking about it a bit, that eldritch blade would be better already if they just changed the underlying color from bright blue (spectral theme) to red (blood theme). When i see the word "eldritch" i think of something hellish, occult, corrupted. But when i see a bright blue/white spell effect, thats either more on the "divine" or "spectral" direction. Neither fits well with a zephonim.

Vampmaster
10th Feb 2014, 10:22
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Eldritch_energy

It was a blue colour in SR1, although it could be purple at a stretch. Kain's lightning and TK were both that colour too. It's not like it's shown devouring a soul or anything.

I suppose it could be given a solid core like it's an insect stinger or something if people see it as a problem.

LegacyOfKayn
10th Feb 2014, 10:32
Well in SR1 we see that all the liutenants even as devolved as they were they still kept their abilities (melchia the wall passing thing,rahab the water imuniti etc) and i don't remember zephon even trying to mind control raziel...i mean if he had the abiliti it was worth at least a shot right? How could he know it wouldn't work otherwise?
But still i get the ideea it's hard to implement spider-like abilities without turning the zephonim into...basically spiderman.
Raziel did called him a coward...so i gues the human transformation kinda fits...also the clones...eh..let's say the abilities are ok...somewhat.
But the aperences...c'mon that's just not right.I mean sure i agree they should be skinny,i agree they should be creepy but at the same time they should look...dangerous sience they are vampires.They look more handicapped then dangerous to me (again didn't say it as an insult).I for one would not play this class more than like 2-3 time just because of it's looks.The turelim look cool,so are the reavers,even the razielim look better and they are FAR more devolved...this is the first class i think it's a fail...but still the game it's in development...who knows what the future holds.

Lakdav2
10th Feb 2014, 10:33
Oh. Okay...

Still dont know why thats eldritch and not glyph as the quote from EG says. Glyph would make some sense, seeing some relationship to the hylden glyph magic (from Raziels part, but not from the zephonim).

I never heard the word eldritch in LoK before, but then again, i only played the games. I dont know if any manuals or other sources state anything else about "eldritch".

Vampmaster
10th Feb 2014, 10:56
Yeah, I think it was in the manual.

lucinvampire
10th Feb 2014, 10:56
I like the look of the Zephonim :D it really creeps me out – I think it’s the walk and the gangly fingers!

…but…I’m on the fence about the whole Eldritch energy blade…I can see that they are supposed to be ritualistic so it's logical and that its magick and it works – but like others have said it looks a bit of a Soul Reaver rip off…I think I would be a little more happy if it was a – excuse the term –“hidden blade” that was imbued in Eldritch energy…ok that’s still a lame idea. Yeah I don’t know just seems a bit meh – and it's taking a bit away from SR – even though it isn’t the same thing – it’s Eldritch energy and nothing to do with Spectral – I don’t know maybe if it’s look could be changed up a bit to look less SResc - more like a blade looking energy - straight blade…maybe at least change the colour???

LegacyOfKayn
10th Feb 2014, 11:02
Ok so i see that i'm the only one thinking that theyr looks are off...about the mummy and the handicapped rather than dangerous vamps...ok i'll close the subject here:)

Vampmaster
10th Feb 2014, 11:03
I like the look of the Zephonim :D it really creeps me out – I think it’s the walk and the gangly fingers!

…but…I’m on the fence about the whole Eldritch energy blade…I can see that they are supposed to be ritualistic so it's logical and that its magick and it works – but like others have said it looks a bit of a Soul Reaver rip off…I think I would be a little more happy if it was a – excuse the term –“hidden blade” that was imbued in Eldritch energy…ok that’s still a lame idea. Yeah I don’t know just seems a bit meh – and it's taking a bit away from SR – even though it isn’t the same thing – it’s Eldritch energy and nothing to do with Spectral – I don’t know maybe if it’s look could be changed up a bit to look less SResc - more like a blade looking energy - straight blade…maybe at least change the colour???

Wait, did it look wavy (flamberge-like) to you? It at least looked like a straight blade to me.

Obisher
10th Feb 2014, 11:22
Well, if I remember correctly, the Vampire Worshippers in SR could only be seen in Silenced Cathedral. So maybe Zephon and his clan used their mind manipulation powers to control those worshippers? Just a theory...

Lord_Aevum
10th Feb 2014, 11:40
I never heard the word eldritch in LoK before, but then again, i only played the games. I dont know if any manuals or other sources state anything else about "eldritch".

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/eldritch.php

Vampmaster
10th Feb 2014, 11:46
http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/eldritch.php

Beat you to it. Albeit, with the wiki page.

Lord_Aevum
10th Feb 2014, 11:50
No, because the wiki page is not done :)

lucinvampire
10th Feb 2014, 11:52
Wait, did it look wavy (flamberge-like) to you? It at least looked like a straight blade to me.

Yeah I didn’t mean it looked kris – it’s more the ethereal glow and shape makes it look more SResc – and my thought was it might look less SR like if it appears more like a physical straight blade made of energy and a maybe different colour or an imbued blade – rather than glowing mass of energies that make up a blade.

Ok that probably still doesn’t make much sense lol…it’s Monday and it’s morning :p

Bazielim
10th Feb 2014, 17:15
I never heard the word eldritch in LoK before, but then again, i only played the games. I dont know if any manuals or other sources state anything else about "eldritch".

Yeah, as others have pointed out through links by now, "Eldritch Energy" and the "Glyph Energy" (from SR1) are interchangeable terms. American sources including the US manual and Prima guide refer exclusively to "Eldritch Energy" (literally means 'energy of a strange realm'), while the UK equivalents and the brief snippets of optional in-game dialogue regarding them only mention it as "Glyph Energy". Either is acceptable, but Eldritch is probably more useful as a term, because it allows us to avoid confusion with what may arguably be a completely different and unrelated "Glyph Energy" or "Glyph magic" in BO2 :)

Vampmaster
10th Feb 2014, 17:28
Yeah, as others have pointed out through links by now, "Eldritch Energy" and the "Glyph Energy" (from SR1) are interchangeable terms. American sources including the US manual and Prima guide refer exclusively to "Eldritch Energy" (literally means 'energy of a strange realm'), while the UK equivalents and the brief snippets of optional in-game dialogue regarding them only mention it as "Glyph Energy". Either is acceptable, but Eldritch is probably more useful as a term, because it allows us to avoid confusion with what may arguably be a completely different and unrelated "Glyph Energy" or "Glyph magic" in BO2 :)

It also powers the 80s goth reaver:
http://www.thelostworlds.net/Etc/The_80s_Goth_Reaver.html

Razaiim
10th Feb 2014, 17:58
A lot of you are missing the quote where they said the artwork for the Deciever's skills wasn't done, hence why some things looked weird. The glowy blade might have just been put in to attract attention to it and show it off, as it isn't as obvious as the deceiver's other skills. Otherwise I find the Deceiver's skill line-up and appearance very fitting as something that the game needs, and consistent with already established lore.

LegacyOfKayn
10th Feb 2014, 19:24
Ok i take back everything bad i said about their looks,they look awesome with thoese new outfits:D.
But if they would just stand straight (like in thoese pics) instead of that hunched position i think it would be perfect:).
Either way they look vrey cool.

lucinvampire
10th Feb 2014, 20:10
Yeah they do look even more epic seeing them from art - so much easy to examine than them darting about in game :D loving the skinless skins :lol: and the blog entry is very cool - great explanation but I want to know more :D

Hybridix
10th Feb 2014, 20:26
The outfits look amazing. I'm in love with the first one. They are creepy at wish. I didn't expect the mental abilities but it fits their twisted personnalities, and playing Zephonim seems quite fun. I can't wait to learn more about them in the blog.

GeekedUpJuicy
10th Feb 2014, 21:21
I think this is a great class idea, but the implementation could be pretty dangerous to the overall player experience.

I think the on-screen effects of the Deceiver's victims need to be done carefully. There's a lot of potential problems about this as seen in lots of other games with similar mechanics. I just think the developers have to keep in mind that sabotaging/blocking a player's camera can easily piss them off, especially if they don't have a proper "explanation" or clue as to why it's happening. You can just imagine it, "OMFG who blinded me? F-ing bullsh--! He was nowhere near me!" So maybe with this kind of game mechanic, it's best to:

1. Not totally disable a player's view. Maybe leave some visibility in locations not at the center view, so a skilled player could use this opening to still look around and try to maneuver away somewhere or keep fighting.
2. Make the Deceiver apparent to the player. If a player gets blinded and has no idea how it happened, they're just angrily staring at a white screen. Maybe force the player's view to the Deceiver as they use this power. Something like that, because I could imagine a Deceiver overpowering or spamming some helpless stranded victim from far away. EDIT: Great idea actually... have the person be blinded and ONLY able to see the Deceiver in the Spectral Realm. (sorry I'm not a total LoK expert, does it make sense for a Deceiver to be able to do this?) That would be interesting, as it'd be a sort of like "mental connection" between the two. I would love to see the Material/Spectral Realms somehow come into play in this game.

Also, I think the whole "Deceivers cannot be trusted even by fellow vampires" is kinda cool. So maybe a human could somehow deflect/sabotage a Deceiver and have them start attacking vampires on their own team, lol.

BUT MAN, WHEN IS THE BETA COMING? **bites finger nails in anticipation**

Monkeythumbz
10th Feb 2014, 22:24
I'm sorry to say this but i'm really disapointed in the deceiver...so let me explain why:

1.The abilities...how can the zephonims devolve intro spider like creatures from mind manipulators?I mean think about the rest a little:

Melchia had the skin problem - Devolved into a human-body-made creaturue (makes sense)
Rahab had the water immuniti - Devolved into a shark like monster (makes sense)
Dumah had no particular weakneses and was a great fighter - Devolved into the vampire hercule (makes sense...somewhat)
Turel was a big hulky bat-eared vamp - Devolved into a big hulky bat-eared monster (makes sense)
Zephon the master mind manipulator - Devolved into a spider like creature? hope u get my point...

All of their abilities influenced their devolution...and zephon's mind manipulatin thing just doesn't seem right.
The Zephonim are described as (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1936#p1936)“Spies, alchemists, assassins” and that their Lieutenant, Zephon, is (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3925#p3925) “scheming and suspicious, always sending spies out and seeking information to exploit a weakness. He preferred the art of the ambush, attacking indirectly. He saw the value in planning for the future, and had the greatest stock of blood in storage, sometimes using it to barter.” On our blog, we’ve also said that the Zephonim were (http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/alchemists-arcane-cultists-with-a-thirst-for-revenge) “eager to compete in raw power with the elder Clans, attempted to artificially shape and force their metamorphoses through ritual self-torture, alchemical engineering and twisted breeding programs”, which explains their camouflage and psychic knife-type abilities, as well as their tortured visual appearance.

I’ve also said on the forums that (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=8484&p=78012#post78012) “Bear in mind that the effects Nupraptor's curse (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Corruption_of_the_Pillars) were primarily influenced by each Lieutenant's psyche - it's those more psychological aspects of Zephon and his Clan that we'd be looking to explore with the Zephonim.” This is backed up by Daniel Cabuco’s post here (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2217#p2217), where he says “Nupraptor's curse was a form of madness, which effected each person differently. For Kain, it influenced his physical evolution (because it’s influenced by the mind and personality). Think of it as a sort of genetic disorder that hampers the mind, simplifying it into its more base needs. Kain's willpower and mind were significant, but his sons were passed the tainted gifts, and were less well equipped to deal with it.”

Given that Daniel Cabuco says (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Zephon#Personality) that “Zephon isn't necessarily the smartest, or the best fighter, but he is one of the most cunning. Working the politics with expert precision as a spiderweb of lies. [...] this eventually led to his dark gifts and mutation direction”, the Deceiver is clearly and appropriately representative of Clan Zephonim.


2.The backstab abilliti...what's that he pops out of he's hand?A mini soulreaver?A mini lightsaber?A chakra blade like from naruto universe?Maybe instead of poping out the mini chakra-soul-saber u could make him to just pop out his claws like any vampire from the LoK universe and stab the humans with them.
We think of the Deceiver's back-stab ability more in terms of eldritch magic (http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/eldritch.php) than in terms of spectral energy. We’ve seen eldritch energy power all kinds of abilities previously in the LoK series, from TK to pyrokinesis and more outright magical attacks, involving summoning sunlight and water. Similarly, the Deceiver uses his mental/psychic powers to magically summon a blade of eldritch energy from the ether.


Well, if I remember correctly, the Vampire Worshippers in SR could only be seen in Silenced Cathedral. So maybe Zephon and his clan used their mind manipulation powers to control those worshippers? Just a theory...
Bingo! (http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/vampireworshippers.php) This influenced our thinking, for sure.


Eldritch is probably more useful as a term, because it allows us to avoid confusion with what may arguably be a completely different and unrelated "Glyph Energy" or "Glyph magic" in BO2 :)
Precisely! Eldritch energy is a completely different magical power source than Glyph energy. Eldritch magic appears to be aligned with the Ancients and Glyph magic appears to be aligned with the Hylden.

GenFeelGood
10th Feb 2014, 22:46
When do we get to play the Deciever is what I'm really interested in. Do we have to wait till the beta starts to get a crack at it or will it be before then?

NickTsiou
11th Feb 2014, 02:02
Even I am not into this transition from traditional LoK to Nosgoth, I can admit that the main idea of the Zephonim is really good and lore-respective and the Dumahim look very nice as well.

Although this energy dagger doesn't look nice at all...

Lakdav2
11th Feb 2014, 07:34
Bingo! (http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/vampireworshippers.php) This influenced our thinking, for sure.


Precisely! Eldritch energy is a completely different magical power source than Glyph energy. Eldritch magic appears to be aligned with the Ancients and Glyph magic appears to be aligned with the Hylden.


Right, this is where im lost again. In SR1, regardless of what powered them, Raziel learned glyphs. Specificly aimed against vampires, as sunlight and water would be hardly useful against anything else lorewise. Vampires and ancients could not possibly build those sites or leave the glyphs for Raziel to find, and so my theory was that the hylden left them around secretly while they were rampant on Nosgoth before the end of BO2. Humans and vampires later built around them to safeguard or lock away. So why would the eldritch energy (more related to vampires and ancients) power magics of the glyph (hylden) type?

(I know at this point this is off-topic, but i dont like to be left confused about the lore.)

Bazielim
13th Feb 2014, 02:58
Right, this is where im lost again. In SR1, regardless of what powered them, Raziel learned glyphs. Specificly aimed against vampires, as sunlight and water would be hardly useful against anything else lorewise. Vampires and ancients could not possibly build those sites or leave the glyphs for Raziel to find, and so my theory was that the hylden left them around secretly while they were rampant on Nosgoth before the end of BO2. Humans and vampires later built around them to safeguard or lock away. So why would the eldritch energy (more related to vampires and ancients) power magics of the glyph (hylden) type?

Sorry for delay, I'm a bit busy this week, but the simplest explanation for why they're unlikely to be related comes from the timeline situation itself. BO2 (and Defiance) takes place in the fourth timeline, and it is in this iteration of history that the Hylden go on their 'rampage', explicitly bringing the Glyph stuff with them from the Demon Realm and using it in their conquest and domination of Nosgoth, before being kicked out again. On the other hand SR1 (and Nosgoth) takes place in an earlier iteration of history, the second timeline, where the Hylden never escape the Demon Realm and never set a foot back in the Materiel Realm, hence they cannot be really be directly responsible for the Glyphs seen in SR1 (and that does not change for the unseen fourth timeline version of the SR era, which is reportedly not much different to the second).

They're also quite different in terms of usage and operation and all that they really share is that they can be damaging to vampires and seem to function through 'glyphs' - literally 'symbol markings' - and those markings are very different and distinct between the SR1 and BO2 stuff, suggesting different origin etc.

There's probably a lot more that can be added to the discussion about the Glyphs and stuff, but I'll leave that to others for the mo. Nevertheless, the Glyph-link was not necessarily a bad idea, as it looks as though the BO2 team were in part trying to explain SR-era tech etc, but the way it was ultimately explained with the timelines scuppered that unfortunately. Another interesting thought is that DCab has on several occasions credited the Hylden as living in Glyph cities to hold back the effects of the demon realm, but now it's really getting late and I should head to bed ;)

Vampmaster
13th Feb 2014, 12:00
The other option is that the hylden created the glyphs before they were imprisoned in the demon dimension if the first place. I can't remember where I heard this, but it was suggested at some point that the glyph energy was actually made up of souls which would make them really easy to be absorbed by Raziel.

ExistenceOfNothing
16th May 2014, 00:26
Some of what I'm about to say has already been said, but I figured it's worthwhile just to get my own opinions out there and add what hasn't already been stated.

Appearance:
As we all know, the Zephonim evolve (devolve?) into spider-like creatures. This is reflected in their elongated limbs. As for their clothes and masks, I believe this is because of their connection to the Vampire Cult, members of which could be found in the Silenced Cathedral (residence of the Zephonim) in Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver. These members also wore ceremonial masks, so it could be assumed that the masks worn by the Deceiver are simply more ornate takes on a preestablished concept. The connection is further solidified by the following quote from the Deceiver's introductory post (which can be found here (http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/new-vampire-class-the-deceiver-of-clan-zephonim)):

"While every Clan has its own breeding farms of captive Humans buried in the heart of their own territory, the Zephonim have for centuries cultivated the art.

In centuries to come, Clan Zephonim will come to make use of their mental powers to re-affirm the sect of Vampire-worshipping Humans' waning faith, compelling them to serve their dark gods as devoutly as ever before."

The remainder of their form can be attributed to the "self-torture, experimental alchemy and twisted breeding programs" undertaken by the Zephonim to manipulate and accelerate their evolution, which could explain the suspicions of their involvement in the purging of much of the Razielim. Zephon was said to be calculating and political (as shown by his spider-like appearance, in that he "weaved a web" of plots and treachery), and we know that, as far as Kain's remaining lieutenants knew, Raziel was killed for surpassing Kain's evolution, so it would make sense for the deceitful Zephonim to use the Razielim as a scapegoat to draw attention away from their own evolutionary endeavors, lest they suffer a similar fate. Admittedly, this is new lore with not a lot of backing by the previous games save for Zephon's nature, but it doesn't contradict any lore or personal motives either, so I suppose it's fine. It also gives them an excuse to more closely resemble Zephon's notoriously twisted form at this early point in their evolution.

Powers:
The Blade does admittedly seem out of place, and is almost distracting in that its very bright for what is meant to be an assassin class. Magic does exist in the Legacy of Kain universe, so it isn't an impossibility, but perhaps a ceremonial dagger (like the ones carried by the Vampire Cultists), or simply their claws would be more fitting (and more discrete). There are those who might say "Well why would their claws only be deadly at that point?", to which I would point out that the Dumahim always have their legs, but they don't always attack with their "Sweeping Kick" move. Lining up a shot is bound to be more powerful, and we must have some leniency in realism for the sake of the mechanics of the game.

As for their "Dominate Mind" abilty, I think we've missed a rather important callback to Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver. As some of you might know, there was originally going to be a boss known as the "Priestess" who led a sect of the Vampire Cult and held the power of possession. Since we've already established the connection between the Zephonim and the Vampire cult, it would make sense for the ability to come from the vampires being worshipped, especially with their reputation for manipulation through both subtle and overt means. This raises the question "Why don't the Zephonim carry this power in Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver?". Well, there are a number of possible explanations. Perhaps it was a more advanced ability used mainly by those high ranking in the Vampire Cult's Vampire (and, to a lesser extent, human) clergy to help maintain and control the cult. However, as pointed out by Raziel when he first encounters the Dumahim, most of the lower members of the other Lieutenants' broods became more animalistic, perhaps even losing their higher faculties and their more potent mental abilities. (Though some are shown to speak, such as Morlock, most of the vampires encountered in LoK:SR merely grunt or hiss, thought it is unknown if this is because they couldn't speak, or simply didn't care to speak to their enemy). Even Zephon admitted to having a beastial "insect mind". Addtionally, the fact that the Zephonim were undergoing mind altering experiments (not all of which succeeded, I'm sure) might have compounded this devolution. Perhaps, as others have pointed out, some of the Zephonim did possess this ability (with Zephon possibly even acting as a "Hive Mind", of sorts), and it simply didn't work on Raziel, so we didn't notice.

As for the remaining abilities, we must remember that there is magic in Nosgoth, and the Deceiver's introduction post did say that the Zephonim were tampering with such magic, so it makes sense that there would be some fruits to their labor, and that some of these fruits might be shed or lost as the clans fell from grace and into ruin along with Nosgoth itself.

lucinvampire
6th Aug 2014, 09:05
I just wondered if anyone by any chance took screenshots of the different Deceiver skins from the old armoury – before the UI was changed this week?

I’ve searched the internet and cannot find two of them – I've managed to find the standard one and the red hooded one - if you anyone has shots of them please could you share *prays*

:D