PDA

View Full Version : Nuclear Weapons



3nails4you
5th Mar 2009, 15:32
So I didn't see really anything about nuclear weapons at all in DX1 as far as threats and politics, like we see it today. Do you guys think it will be a factor in DX3? Perhaps we see a mutual agreement of all nations to destroy their nuclear weapons? Post your thoughts, I think it's interesting that it plays such a huge factor today in politics but plays such a small role in DX1 & 2. Thoughts?

facepalm
5th Mar 2009, 16:44
Official DX canon states that Pakistan and India have nuked each other before DX1's time perioid, so I'd wager it will be addressed in the prequel.


Vishnu's Fall
A Brief History of the Indian Crisis

...after the bombing, Indian officials issued a series of stern warnings to
Pakistan that were rebuffed with denials of responsibility and dire threats that
any attempt to use the bombings as a pretext for military action would be met
with force in kind. From the viewpoint of the present-day historiographer this
was a crucial event, a game of brinksmanship that had been played between
Pakistan and India many, many times before and so, while tragic, it is also
easily understood how clear signs of the impending catastrophe might have been
ignored.
"Like two kids shoving each other on the playground," said historian Alistair
Brooks. "You never expect them to come to blows."
That was before Pakistan began the trials of the "Calcutta 16" and both nations
descended into a maelstrom of political upheaval that would eventually culminate
in the exchange of nuclear warheads...

Sabretooth1
5th Mar 2009, 16:50
Not mentioned much because it's not really much of an issue since the Cold War ended. Everyone's got their nuclear arsenals, and nothing's really changed other than that major wars have been stopped.

As for the mutual agreement of destruction of nuclear weapons; that's extremely unlikely in any scenario. I can't see that happening for any valid reason in the next 100 years.

Only hint we have is of the India/Pakistan nuclear holocaust, and that's depressing because I'm Indian. :( Can we retcon it so that Vishnu's Fall is actually a very popular fiction novel or something? Please? :p

On a sidenote, I've always been amazed by how accurately Deus Ex's predictions have ended up real. It was an extremely well-researched game, and I hope DX3 maintains the same. The India/Pakistan crisis as described in the book is frighteningly similar to what's been going since the 26/11 Mumbai attacks.

jamhaw
5th Mar 2009, 17:01
So I didn't see really anything about nuclear weapons at all in DX1 as far as threats and politics, like we see it today. Do you guys think it will be a factor in DX3? Perhaps we see a mutual agreement of all nations to destroy their nuclear weapons? Post your thoughts, I think it's interesting that it plays such a huge factor today in politics but plays such a small role in DX1 & 2. Thoughts?

I would say it plays a very important role in DX I. We just never really see it as we are just fighting scattered terrorists. The Mexicans have a large nuculeur arsenal (as part of their alliance with the Russians.)

3nails4you
5th Mar 2009, 17:21
On a sidenote, I've always been amazed by how accurately Deus Ex's predictions have ended up real. It was an extremely well-researched game, and I hope DX3 maintains the same. The India/Pakistan crisis as described in the book is frighteningly similar to what's been going since the 26/11 Mumbai attacks.

With the exception of the gas prices at the station where Tiffany Savage is held. It's lower than basically we could ever go again.

K^2
5th Mar 2009, 17:26
I'd like to think that ultimately, nuclear arsenal will prevent a full out war between India and Pakistan. To date, no two countries with nuclear arsenal have been involved in a full out war against each other.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
5th Mar 2009, 17:41
To date, no two countries with nuclear arsenal have been involved in a full out war against each other.

"To date" being the scary word. Hope it never changes to "Too late". :eek:

K^2
5th Mar 2009, 18:22
Yes, but what are the options?

Nuclear weapons have a lot of desirable features to be a weapon of diplomacy rather than destruction. Sufficient number of nations posses them. So United States can't just decide to turn China into a glass parking lot, for example. Launch of nuclear arms will result in retaliation and subsequent mutual annihilation. Nobody with half a brain wants that. And that is the best part. Nuclear weapons are not something that an idiot can trigger. There is no red button. Electronics on the thing are incredibly complex. Even if a country ends up with complete retard for a president (which we now know can happen), he alone could not launch the weapons. Order would have to go through a number of people, any one of which could stop the launch. If a bomb is stolen by terrorists, they'd need a team of engineers with various degrees working on the bomb for several years to make it detonatable. It's not going to happen.

All in all, between the risk of nuclear holocaust and risk of endless world wars, I do chose the former. If we, as species, cannot manage that kind of risk, maybe we should go extinct.

El_Bel
5th Mar 2009, 21:03
Only hint we have is of the India/Pakistan nuclear holocaust, and that's depressing because I'm Indian. :(

On a sidenote, I've always been amazed by how accurately Deus Ex's predictions have ended up real.

I suggest you move out of your country.

K^2
5th Mar 2009, 21:18
He probably already has. His writing patterns aren't usual for someone who lives there.

Fig89
5th Mar 2009, 21:51
As a sort of off topic sidetrack, I really hope DX3 does try to involve as much of the DX canon as possible. Prime example of this? NSF.

You don't have to look much farther than, oh, any economics news to understand how likely this is. Government taxes, people get ideological and say screw you. Started as the Northwest Secessionist Forces, then expanded to be the whole country.

Just. Just picture this.

What if you could BE AT SQUALNOMIE IN DX3. Apparently it was a sort of 'lexington and concord' for the NSF. Imagine if entire story arcs of the game was built around proto-NSF people.

How's that for canon immersion?

Mindmute
5th Mar 2009, 23:15
What if you could BE AT SQUALNOMIE IN DX3. Apparently it was a sort of 'lexington and concord' for the NSF. Imagine if entire story arcs of the game was built around proto-NSF people.

How's that for canon immersion?

I'd absolutely love that, ever since I first overheard the bum talking about how they swarmed them using thermoptic cammo I wished that were something we could be a part of in a prequel.

AaronJ
5th Mar 2009, 23:20
I'd absolutely love that, ever since I first overheard the bum talking about how they swarmed them using thermoptic cammo I wished that were something we could be a part of in a prequel.

I would love that too.

jamhaw
6th Mar 2009, 02:28
With the exception of the gas prices at the station where Tiffany Savage is held. It's lower than basically we could ever go again.

I don't know crude oil prices are going down, considering that in the future we are likely to have more effiecent vehicles and that extracting and refining the stuff is likely to get cheaper plus the fact that if the world economy is down the hole then oil won't cost near as much. Or you could just ascribe it to currency reform.

Fig89
6th Mar 2009, 02:36
currency reform.

... you mean the movement towards more unitary currencies? Like the Euro and Amero?

3nails4you
6th Mar 2009, 03:07
I'm pretty sure it had a dollar sign though, so it could be an old one from before credits, etc. I just found it funny that gas prices were so low, especially with the recent prices.

gamer0004
6th Mar 2009, 15:58
I'm pretty sure it had a dollar sign though, so it could be an old one from before credits, etc.

Nope. Everybody used dollar signs: in America, but in Paris as well. At UNATCO HQ on the white board there are signs that look like dollar signs as well. Maybe because credits were an American idea in DX?

itsalladream
7th Mar 2009, 04:55
So I didn't see really anything about nuclear weapons at all in DX1 as far as threats and politics, like we see it today. Do you guys think it will be a factor in DX3? Perhaps we see a mutual agreement of all nations to destroy their nuclear weapons? Post your thoughts, I think it's interesting that it plays such a huge factor today in politics but plays such a small role in DX1 & 2. Thoughts?

Except for the nuclear attack that we have to thwart.


Nobody with half a brain wants that. And that is the best part. Nuclear weapons are not something that an idiot can trigger. There is no red button. Electronics on the thing are incredibly complex. Even if a country ends up with complete retard for a president (which we now know can happen), he alone could not launch the weapons. Order would have to go through a number of people, any one of which could stop the launch.

I could see N. Korea doing this. That dude is about as looney as they come, and no one will second guess him.

K^2
7th Mar 2009, 05:07
I could see N. Korea doing this. That dude is about as looney as they come, and no one will second guess him.
People did second guess him. Why do you think their rockets go off course, and their nuclear program collapsed? They have the scientists, but these aren't trying hard enough. Before you say they couldn't have built it, if Pakistan can do it, N. Korea certainly could. That's why it gave US a fright.

Besides, it is N. Korea. Even if they managed to build a few nukes, they'd do what? Maybe they'd be able to build some ICBMs. Maybe one would reach a West Coast city in the US. Their bomb would level a few blocks, at most. Loss of life in the neighborhood of 100K. Less than war in Iraq. That's not a real nuclear threat.

I'm mostly talking about nations capable of annihilating each other. These are countries that managed to accumulate powerful military because their system generally works. Such systems aren't ruled by lunatics.

itsalladream
7th Mar 2009, 06:35
Yeah, but it would only take one nuke to be sent into the sky to start a whole string of retaliations. A government wouldn't have enough time to sit down and discuss what to do if one of those things lifted off. I'm sure those decisions have already been made ahead of time, but we will never know what those decisions may be until it happens (assuming it does, which, I am not).

I'm not saying N. Korea would. While the leader doesn't have final say, I think that guy is so out of touch with reality he would be the one who would be most likely to try it.

FrankCSIS
7th Mar 2009, 06:43
Democracy being so full of itself, I'm not too worried about the repercussions of NK going full-time wacko and sending a nuke. No doubt someone would answer with a big momma of his own, but no one would come to NK's aid and cry about it. Even those unfriendly to the West wouldn't think about associating themselves with this kind of event, especially so one launched by non-elected officials.

Truth be told, I'm a lot more worried about bureaucracy and institutions than I am a proper bomb. Nukes are a frightening thing, but we've been over this scenario a while back, and everyone found out where the logic ended.

VicMackey
7th Mar 2009, 06:56
Do you guys think that Deus Ex 3 will have a nuke weapon like Fallout 3? :eek:

FrankCSIS
7th Mar 2009, 07:00
I certainly hope not. Outside of looking pretty when things went boom, it was an absurd weapon horribly calibrated.

Then again, so were every explosives in the game.

K^2
7th Mar 2009, 07:21
If N. Korea launches a few warheads against US, the retaliation will be a small number of warheads for a good number of reasons. Most likely, it will be a 1-to-1 exchange.

Basically, if US launches a whole lot of warheads at once, odds are, China and Russia will also launch their arsenal, simply because there is no knowing what US is targeting. If US launches just a few warheads, however, Russia and China can afford to wait a bit to see where they are heading. Even if these end up heading for Russian or Chinese soil, they will not be able to do sufficient damage to first-strike capabilities. So if exchange is 1-to-1, other nuclear powers do not get involved, N. Korea becomes a burning pile of rubble, and US has to abandon one or two of its West Coast cities due to fallout.

jamhaw
7th Mar 2009, 16:27
... you mean the movement towards more unitary currencies? Like the Euro and Amero?

I meant like what the Nazi's did with the Reichsmarck. Create a Freedom Dollar for example.

minus0ne
8th Mar 2009, 13:50
He probably already has. His writing patterns aren't usual for someone who lives there.
Wow, you haven't changed much. Writing patterns? Is that K2-speak for something? I guess all Indian people should end their sentences with "Holy Cow!" in your mind.

Oh well, glad to see someone is a fan of Mutual Assured Destruction :nut: I can only assume that when an alien civilisations comes to greet us, they'll give us a alien version of a Nobel prize in philosophy for this brilliant bit of nuclear stalemate. NOT.

spm1138
8th Mar 2009, 14:03
MAD kinda worked.

The world was a lot safer back then, occasional hiccup aside.

It basically guaranteed that nuclear weapons remained as a deterrent and prevented anything bigger than proxy wars.

The problem now is we no longer have two huge power blocks with all the nukes... hence the continued interest in missile defence programmes.

Deterrence relies on someone being rational enough to make a reasoned decision based on their own self interest. The USSR were basically rational.

Intercepting a full on attack from Russia with lots of missiles, MIRVs and penetration aids falling out of the sky is never going to be viable but a missile or two from NK (that's why the US is putting interceptor missiles in Alaska and why there's so much fuss about these NK rocket tests) or any other rogue state is at least possible.

K^2
8th Mar 2009, 19:40
Wow, you haven't changed much. Writing patterns? Is that K2-speak for something? I guess all Indian people should end their sentences with "Holy Cow!" in your mind.

Oh well, glad to see someone is a fan of Mutual Assured Destruction :nut: I can only assume that when an alien civilisations comes to greet us, they'll give us a alien version of a Nobel prize in philosophy for this brilliant bit of nuclear stalemate. NOT.
We have a number of students in our Physics Department who are fresh out of India. They use very distinctive grammar.

Mutual annihilation is the only thing that can possibly prevent a political figure from starting a war. They never care about lives they sacrifice. They care about their own status, wealth, and well being. Well, nuclear weapons forces them to put all that on a line. Even if they can survive the blast and find shelter to avoid fallout, there is not much point in being the political leader of a nuclear wasteland.

spm1138
8th Mar 2009, 22:54
President Eden would disagree with you.

Romeo
9th Mar 2009, 03:31
President Eden would disagree with you.
LOOOOOOOOOOOL!! Poor, poor Nathan...

itsalladream
9th Mar 2009, 11:17
Thought you guys might find this interesting.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7931670.stm

Sabretooth1
9th Mar 2009, 12:27
We have a number of students in our Physics Department who are fresh out of India. They use very distinctive grammar.

I know what you speak of, but for the record it's a country with a 1 Billion+ population, so there have to be oddballs like me. ;)

TrickyVein
10th Mar 2009, 18:44
President Eden would disagree with you.

I think fallout 3 will be eerily correct in predicting nuclear conflict between the US and china. They're a "big nation" now and they want to start throwing their weight around. Their government is hardly what you'd call sane or rational. They are harassing the US's navy (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7933171.stm) and testing their capabilities in space.

As for the issue of ruling a wasteland, china already has the greatest number of some of most polluted cities in the world. If the effects of large scale fallout are such to provoke a "nuclear winter" by thickening the atmosphere with particles and obscuring the sun, china's already done that with smog, and they had one of their worst winter's ever this last season.