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View Full Version : TYRANT A few tips for the people playing as one or playing with one.



CoOkiedude
4th Feb 2014, 02:19
Heya guys! So, I've been playing non stop for a while now and there's a few things I noticed while playing this wonderful class that I wanted to share. I'd love to do an extensive guide but I'm very tired at the moment I'm writing this so this is the compromise I made with myself because I absolutely wanted to post a few things about the Tyrant. :nut: Keep in mind while reading these that this is my personal opinion based on extensive gameplay experience with the class and in no way are these facts or do they reflect anything more than my idea of the class's function.


1) You are not a damage dealer. This doesn't mean you don't deal damage. It simply means that your role in the group should not be spamming AAs (autoattacks) or trying to go in last so you can clean up.

2) You are an initiator. A warmachine. A Juggernaut. A deathbringer. When you play as a Tyrant , you should look at that 1400 hp and understand the reason you have so much. It enables you to withstand massive amounts of punishment while you charge/jump into the human group and make them wet their underpants.It does not however mean that you are invulnerable.Which brings me to my next point.

3) You are a WALL. Some of you may use the word "tank" but it would not be appropriate here because of the magnificent collision detection system the game has. The Tyrant is the only class that can use itself as a moving obstacle (provided you are not at 100 hp when you decide to do so). Ignore Pain is not there to just help you out of a sticky situation. No. My blood-sucking fellows, Ignore Pain combined with some decent maneuvering can offer your teammates the breathing room they need to get out of a sticky situation by completely blocking a human's attacks/skills.(It's also humorously "bad mannered" as you can pop it and just hug someone with it, showing them who's baws. :tongue2: )

4) When you use charge, try not to be in line of sight of an enemy. Instead try to get a good idea of where the humans are positioned and start charging out of line of sight so that they have less time to react to it. Always be mindful of the distance you need to cover between the starting position and where you want to end up. Charge has a 3.75 second duration so be careful you don't end up almost hitting someone with it and instead stopping right in front of them :P . Also be aware that you can steer sideways during the charge animation with the A and D keys.

5)Jump is awkward and requires a lot of practice before you start hitting with it so spam it hard until you get the hang of it. Also don't fret when you have jump equipped and the humans are camped inside buildings. Remember: You are a vampire,and a tough one at that. You can still jump around rooftops so you can get at a better spot and you can even walk right into them. But, in my opinion, ALWAYS run Shockwave with Jump, so that you at least have a ranged engage option if Jump is out of the question.Also, Jump can be used as an escape tool. And if you jump from lower ground and land on a rooftop before or VERY shortly after you start descending Jump will not go on cooldown.

6)Last but not least! Always make sure you understand the reason for your current loadout(unless you are a beginner in which case just try out whatever you want to get a hang of it :P). Don't just pick skills because they look pretty or strong. Pick them because you want to help synergize with the team's composition as effectively as possible.

One more thing. Rage in my opinion is a horrible choice for the Tyrant. It doesn't buff the damage of his skills, merely his autoattacks and it forces him into a Reaver-esque playstyle where you try to get in after your buddies so you can do damage with it. Ignore Pain will ALWAYS be the superior choice in that regard because it simply gives you the option to get into and out of a fight safely and because you are not screwed when you get Bola'd. Also Ignore Pain kills alchemists who spam , because they take friendly fire damage from their own attacks if you hug them and you force them to either stop attacking or deal damage to themselves :P

I hope I helped, if I forgot about anything I'll just edit it in :D See you in the fields of slaughter people !

EDIT: Enrage buffs skills! Wasn't aware since it's not in the tooltip TY cmstache :D (it also buffs fall damage caused by those skills which is ridiculous :D) This changes a few things but mostly it means I'll be spamming Tyrant today -_-

EDIT#2: Got a ton of matches with enrage in today. I still believe Ignore Pain is the superior choice for competitive play, but my opinion will remain purely theoretical since party making isn't enabled yet. However I must say, the opportunities that Enrage offers and the amount of instakills you can get with it certainly make it a lot more viable than I believed it to be.Of course one day is not enough and as I said there will be extensive testing done, but these are my thought on it for now. Also Enrage kinda kills Jump thus far for me. But then again maybe I need to find a better way to utilize those two skills together.I will be overhauling this thread into a guide when I feel that I am experienced enough to do that.

Oroibahazopi
4th Feb 2014, 02:26
Best advice I can give in addition to that is don't try to chain charge or jump into groundslam or shockwave, you'll get stunned and killed.

CoOkiedude
4th Feb 2014, 04:52
Best advice I can give in addition to that is don't try to chain charge or jump into groundslam or shockwave, you'll get stunned and killed.

So very, very true. After Charge or Jump, there's a small cooldown timer on Groundslam or Shockwave. After Jump it's best to get a melee attack in and then use Q.If you actually bullseye someone with Jump you will stun them so in theory you have time to use Q but more often than not , they have friends around them so don't be reckless. With Charge it really depends on your game plan at that specific moment so it's up to you :D

DeeArc
4th Feb 2014, 07:54
(...)or jump into groundslam or shockwave, you'll get stunned and killed.

This has happened more than I care to admit.

lucinvampire
4th Feb 2014, 09:41
Great words of advice Cookie :D ...I love Tyrant lol he rules :D

I'd say maybe try keep an eye on your vampy friends too - if it looks like they are coming along to attack then jump/charge in and lead the attack by causing some chaos which gives them chance then to do their thing whilst the humans focus on you (it can fail if your buddies don't back you up though). If your mates are already attacking and you're a bit late to the party then disturb the humans by leaping on their heads yeeeeaaaaahhhhhhhh!

Oroibahazopi
4th Feb 2014, 15:36
So very, very true. After Charge or Jump, there's a small cooldown timer on Groundslam or Shockwave. After Jump it's best to get a melee attack in and then use Q.If you actually bullseye someone with Jump you will stun them so in theory you have time to use Q but more often than not , they have friends around them so don't be reckless. With Charge it really depends on your game plan at that specific moment so it's up to you :D
You may find yourself needing to hit f as soon as you land/finish running vs good teams. I usually Jump, mash f as hard as I can because I'm standing in traps, grenades or firewalls and have been hit on the way in by scouts for 30-50% of my hp, walk off out of sight and come back to shockwave after ignore pain is finished to help clean up.

cmstache
4th Feb 2014, 16:24
Enrage does indeed buff skills. It also buffs any fall damage taken because of those skills (I've taken 550 fall damage from a medium height because I got shockwaved and thrown back.) It can literally be an instakill. Enrage is just harder to use (only like 3-4 players use it effectively). The ones who do typically score 20k plus almost every match.

Razaiim
4th Feb 2014, 16:29
Another thing is you can let Reavers blanker in smoke bombs before you charge or leap, which blinds humans quite nicely, leading for an easier and safer charge/leap

CoOkiedude
4th Feb 2014, 16:55
Enrage does indeed buff skills. It also buffs any fall damage taken because of those skills (I've taken 550 fall damage from a medium height because I got shockwaved and thrown back.) It can literally be an instakill. Enrage is just harder to use (only like 3-4 players use it effectively). The ones who do typically score 20k plus almost every match.


I wasn't aware of that. It's not in the tooltip,is it intended? If it is, it changes a great deal of things for me :P

cmstache
4th Feb 2014, 17:18
I'm not sure. I know why it does it, but not sure if it's intended. Fall damage is attributed to anything that caused it. So the if a shockwave is buffed, so is the damage the fall causes as long as it's active.

Psyonix_Eric
4th Feb 2014, 18:09
2) You are an initiator. A warmachine. A Juggernaut. A deathbringer. When you play as a Tyrant , you should look at that 1400 hp and understand the reason you have so much. It enables you to withstand massive amounts of punishment while you charge/jump into the human group and make them wet their underpants.It does not however mean that you are invulnerable.Which brings me to my next point.
Great tips all around. This one in particular appeals to me, because any time I play Tyrant in the office I love to jump in, throw on Ignore Pain, and (rather loudly) yell "Beast moooooooooooooode!" :cool:

CoOkiedude
4th Feb 2014, 18:18
Great tips all around. This one in particular appeals to me, because any time I play Tyrant in the office I love to jump in, throw on Ignore Pain, and (rather loudly) yell "Beast moooooooooooooode!" :cool:


I know the feeling...so awesome!

Razaiim
4th Feb 2014, 18:37
Favourite Tyrant moments are when the stars align and I can get all four guys with a tyrant charge.

Also I did this one humongous leap. It was perfect. All the Humans clustered on the bridge in Sommerdamm. If I hit two of them would have fallen off. Used Tab to check hit points (pre-leap). One of them would have died. Team was at my back. They hadn't noticed me from so high above, so it was a full 1350 HP of whoop-ass raining in on the unsuspecting fools.
Plot Twist: Hits that furshluggining skinny tiny wooden toothpick of a lamp post... Falls beside bridge. Humans un affected. I scramble as team mates had joined in just a tad late. Get Bola'd so I need to use ignore pain. Team-mates slaughtered. I survive because full HP plus ignore pain+being ignored while humans bring down team-mates. I hate that lamp post.

Oroibahazopi
4th Feb 2014, 18:42
Geometry is a boon and a curse, you can really exploit dodgy jumps to your advantage.

Such as jumping right up against a wall to go completely vertical or finding which ceilings are just high enough to cut your vertical movement short but let you land and do full damage.

CoOkiedude
4th Feb 2014, 19:07
I'm gonna say... hitting the hard ceiling with jump in Sommerdamm and landing like a sack of potatoes in front of the humans instead of on them....Not fun.This might need some looking at perhaps.Few too many occassions :p

Psyonix_Eric
4th Feb 2014, 19:08
I'm gonna say... hitting the hard ceiling with jump in Sommerdamm and landing like a sack of potatoes in front of the humans instead of on them....Not fun.This might need some looking at perhaps.Few too many occassions :p

We've been working on this internally and we've got some fixes in place. It just needs to find its way to live servers.

CoOkiedude
4th Feb 2014, 19:21
We've been working on this internally and we've got some fixes in place. It just needs to find its way to live servers.


Oh that's cool :D By the way Eric, would you happen to know if Enrage is working as intended at the moment? The tooltip says melee attacks only but it also affects skills. If it's working as intended I'm loving every second of it, I just wanted a confirmation if it's not too much trouble.

LauraOrganaSolo
7th Feb 2014, 21:58
I feel like people aren't playing Tyrant enough. It seems like most of the games I get into are nothing but Dumahim and Razielim and everyone is missing out because Dumahim are damge dealers and Razielim have a cool gimmick.

Psyonix_Eric
7th Feb 2014, 22:04
Oh that's cool :D By the way Eric, would you happen to know if Enrage is working as intended at the moment? The tooltip says melee attacks only but it also affects skills. If it's working as intended I'm loving every second of it, I just wanted a confirmation if it's not too much trouble.

It's not that it's not WAI right now, it's more that we're discussing whether or not we want to keep it this way. We're trying to determine how we want the skill to work with regards to this. At the moment it's not an exploit or anything but it may change once we decide what we want.

kardimond
7th Feb 2014, 22:47
It's not that it's not WAI right now, it's more that we're discussing whether or not we want to keep it this way. We're trying to determine how we want the skill to work with regards to this. At the moment it's not an exploit or anything but it may change once we decide what we want.

You probably have thrown most arguments at each other and the only thing left is the decision. However in the case that my feedback might help on decisionmaking, I'll just post it here:

I'd like to see Enrage to stay the way at it is now. And thats not because of pure strength (there'd always be the way to nerf/buff the values of the ability anyway), but because I'd feel uncomfortable using abilities while enraged and to be left with the choice to 1. just not use any ability while enraged or 2. to use an ability but waste quite some of my precious enraged-time.

Although it is true, that I do most enraged-damage with normal hits either way, that problem would still get to me. It could probably be compensated by giving Enrage a higher bufftime, but it likely still wouldnt remove that awkward feeling.

One last thing. That falldamage caused by enraged abilities gets increased as well feels really fun and gimicky as a Tyrant, but I do think that its also probably hard to understand and confusing for most players who are the victim of that. On the other hand it doesnt happen too often. Well from my perspective I'd still like for enraged falldamage to stay cause its fun, but I guess I still wanted to rais the point.

Strike5150
10th Feb 2014, 13:29
I guess I should weigh in too, since Plux, Oroi and I have probably played more tyrant than anyone else. The points you bring up are great for newer players, however enrage is far better than you think for many reasons.

The obvious which has already been brought up is that enrage enhances ALL your damage, from abilities to fall damage to straight up melee.

Second you are faster while enraging, this is a massive massive plus as a tyrant. You can close the distance faster and become more unpredictable since your punching and moving at least 30% faster OUCH.

Also I would like to point out that jump and ignore pain synergize way better than jump and enrage. A lot of people run jump and therefore assume enrage sucks. However, should you learn to charge properly you will learn quickly how devastating that combo is OMG nuf said. In certain areas you can kill a human with a well placed charge while enraged in a single hit. Provance for example, if you charge someone off the bridge close to the little house in the center it will kill them. May not be entirely intended but basically you get enrage damage on the charge which is over 500 dmg depending on how you hit them, plus enrage fall damage = dead.

Charge is far more unpredictable than jump, with jump you are a huge target for a good 1-2 seconds before you land and are really easy to see most of the time. This is why ignore pain is necessary versus a decent human lineup. With charge you have a whole lot going for you, you can't be stunned, you enter fast and can charge out if you see the situation is too risky. If you hit 3 people you pretty much won the fight for your team. You don't even have to live, just spam enrage throw out a shockwave and punch once or twice. You just RIPPED the team a new one, they all have less than half life and spent the last 2-3 seconds focusing you down, GG. I also often do an enraged charge, this does mean that I may be easier to kill because I can't use enrage to escape, but it does mean a lot of damage, so if I know I can land a 2+ enrage charge I'll do it.

I actually prefer charge now, and even like the short standard charge over marathon, even before the nerf to marathon. The reason for that is because I can overcome the length of the charge with superior positioning and getting closer before I commit, and the upside will be that I can charge again before the fight is over if things go well. Now after the marathon nerf I would recommend using the standard charge and learning how to use it. Its actually quite good if not better than marathon in almost any situation. Marathon has its advantage when there is a lot of open space to the target, and if you intend to charge in and get out.

Oroibahazopi
10th Feb 2014, 13:44
Does the speed boost make your charge movement faster?

I couldn't use enrage unless I had a team I could trust, which right now never happens and was rare enough before.

cmstache
10th Feb 2014, 17:04
O.o maybe, that'd be something to test. time to organize racing tyrants :)

Strike5150
12th Feb 2014, 07:37
Even with a horrible team I can usually break 12k+ with charge and enrage. Sausage can attest, but it's still frustrating as hell.

As for the speed boost I honestly don't know, its extremely difficult to tell unless you have a really good example to compare it with. I can tell Enrage itself makes me faster but thats really easy to see. I'll test it next time I play, I can run the same stretch enraged and without, see how far I make it :).

CoOkiedude
13th Feb 2014, 00:24
Even with a horrible team I can usually break 12k+ with charge and enrage. Sausage can attest, but it's still frustrating as hell.

As for the speed boost I honestly don't know, its extremely difficult to tell unless you have a really good example to compare it with. I can tell Enrage itself makes me faster but thats really easy to see. I'll test it next time I play, I can run the same stretch enraged and without, see how far I make it :).

Right. A few things. I was gonna say something on your first post, but in case you didn't notice I made this thread about 8 days before you posted and on top of that the very next day I edited in that Enrage is very powerful in its own way. Now a few more things.I'm fairly certain that if we take skill completely out of the equation I've played Tyrant a LOT. A crapton actually. Like, my game time with reaver is 5-6 hours, sentinel is 2-3 and Tyrant is 15. (Taken from the profile thingy in-game). So I'm fairly certain I may not be the best or anything like that (nor do I claim to be ) but I'm quite knowledgeable and decent at it. In fact right after cmstache made me aware of how Enrage works, I playtested even the most ridiculous situations for 5 days straight to figure the skill out.


A few clarifications. Enrage does buff your movement speed while charging. It buffs everything basically. As cmstache said, it even buffs the fall damage taken when you get thrown off a cliff by an Enraged Tyrant. Also Enrage breaks Shockwave. What that means is, when you are at or below 50% hp with enrage on sometimes, for reasons unknown to me , it will buff the animation speed of shockwave and it will come out faster.Also , Enraging+Charging when your hp is at 70% or lower, will allow you to travel roughly the same distance as a 5 second Marathon Charge.

Now on to a few points you made.Enrage is cool and all, and can do a lot of things but my instincts were spot on before I even tried it. It basically changes your function in the game. Even if you know exactly 100% of the time what to do and how to engage, playing with Enrage simply means you have to be twice more cautious than before about engaging and a lot of times you will probably not even engage because you will get shredded too fast.You switch roles from engaging to dealing damage. There's a small problem with that however. This plan works against unorganized teams and people who don't understand what it means when a Tyrant goes red (I'm not talking about not recognizing Enrage, I will explain shortly) but it will never work against people who are experienced in this game and know the ins and outs of it thus far.

What this means is, by forgoing Ignore Pain , you basically assume you will get good charges without being spotted often and that you will be able to get a few hard hitting Shockwaves even if that doesn't quite work out the way you wanted.That's a neat plan and all (I had the same plan at the start)but then you play against Omhz's or Derputy Potato's or Vae Victis's Hunters or Raina's Alchemist and suddenly the problem sort of dawns on you.You are a Reaver with no Choking Haze and no way to escape if you get focus fire'd. Sure you can charge people from out of sight and try and get the better of them but these are again, tactics against people with no or limited awareness and very little experience in the game. Playing against high level players has taught me that with Enrage the optimal way to go into a group of humans, is waiting on another vampire to initiate, besides yourself. So in a situation where you have a second Tyrant doing the heavy duty work this could work. If you are the only Tyrant however against a group of skilled players, Enrage will always, always, always be sub-par to Ignore Pain. ALWAYS. Because those skilled people will punish you for it.

Since you mentioned my tips were good for beginners, I figured since I constantly play with what I consider the top players these past days I should go into some more advanced advice right?So as a Tyrant you should always be mindful of the number of Hunters in a group if you want to run Enrage. If there's 2 or more and you don't have Ignore Pain, you're basically suiciding. Bola DESTROYS Enrage Tyrants for breakfast. Seriously it's the most obnoxious thing, to pop your Enrage and try and get a good shockwave or a few attacks in , only to get bola'd in the face and then annihilated by incoming fire. A good concept to engage humans with Enrage is popping it before you attack, dropping on them from a cliff or a rooftop, Shockwaving and then Charging immediately so you can avoid possible incoming CC. As I mentioned before ,however, by picking Enrage you aren't an initiator anymore so you have to wait for someone to go in before you or with you , otherwise even if you pop Enrage and charge into them , you will still get shredded.

Good humans NEVER bunch up and always know how to dodge a Charge most of the time so before Charging in , make sure you understand how the humans are positioned at that moment. Otherwise you will end up being completely dodged+shredded to pieces.Which is why Marathon Charge is in a lot of cases superior. Its long cooldown is an issue for sure but being able to start Charge from a longer distance means the Humans won't hear the audio cue of your voice and you will also have some space to catch those dodging at the last moment.That doesn't mean that regular charge doesn't have its merits. It simply means the skill is a little weird at the moment and in my humble opinion those 2 should be merged together into one skill. Like a 18 cd Charge for 325 damage that goes for 5 seconds or 4.75. But that's another story.

Lastly I want to say this. Breaking 12k with a horrible team is cool, but you could probably break 12k with Ignore Pain too(in my experience), simply by being able to go in more often. And don't forget, being able to effectively soak up damage, allows your team to go in as well and creates more opportunities.Generally when you play with a mindset of dealing damage as a Tyrant , more often than not, you're not doing your job right.But I covered my reasons in my initial post. Of course I'm talking high level play games of which we have very few at the moment and not random games where there's usually 2-3 people who know what they're doing and the rest just try to get to know the game better.Also. Jump is very unpredictable too and VERY terrifying if you know how to manipulate it but I don't want to go into details yet =).

cmstache
13th Feb 2014, 00:54
Right. A few things. I was gonna say something on your first post, but in case you didn't notice I made this thread about 8 days before you posted and on top of that the very next day I edited in that Enrage is very powerful in its own way. Now a few more things.I'm fairly certain that if we take skill completely out of the equation I've played Tyrant a LOT. A crapton actually. Like, my game time with reaver is 5-6 hours, sentinel is 2-3 and Tyrant is 15. (Taken from the profile thingy in-game). So I'm fairly certain I may not be the best or anything like that (nor do I claim to be ) but I'm quite knowledgeable and decent at it. In fact right after cmstache made me aware of how Enrage works, I playtested even the most ridiculous situations for 5 days straight to figure the skill out.


A few clarifications. Enrage does buff your movement speed while charging. It buffs everything basically. As cmstache said, it even buffs the fall damage taken when you get thrown off a cliff by an Enraged Tyrant. Also Enrage breaks Shockwave. What that means is, when you are at or below 50% hp with enrage on sometimes, for reasons unknown to me , it will buff the animation speed of shockwave and it will come out faster.Also , Enraging+Charging when your hp is at 70% or lower, will allow you to travel roughly the same distance as a 5 second Marathon Charge.


This is pretty much awesome. I had a feeling it might, but not enough to claim it.


Now on to a few points you made.Enrage is cool and all, and can do a lot of things but my instincts were spot on before I even tried it. It basically changes your function in the game. Even if you know exactly 100% of the time what to do and how to engage, playing with Enrage simply means you have to be twice more cautious than before about engaging and a lot of times you will probably not even engage because you will get shredded too fast.You switch roles from engaging to dealing damage. There's a small problem with that however. This plan works against unorganized teams and people who don't understand what it means when a Tyrant goes red (I'm not talking about not recognizing Enrage, I will explain shortly) but it will never work against people who are experienced in this game and know the ins and outs of it thus far.

Tell that to Plux, Oroi, Omega, and Strike.

What this means is, by forgoing Ignore Pain , you basically assume you will get good charges without being spotted often and that you will be able to get a few hard hitting Shockwaves even if that doesn't quite work out the way you wanted.That's a neat plan and all (I had the same plan at the start)but then you play against Omhz's or Derputy Potato's or Vae Victis's Hunters or Raina's Alchemist and suddenly the problem sort of dawns on you.You are a Reaver with no Choking Haze and no way to escape if you get focus fire'd. Sure you can charge people from out of sight and try and get the better of them but these are again, tactics against people with no or limited awareness and very little experience in the game. Playing against high level players has taught me that with Enrage the optimal way to go into a group of humans, is waiting on another vampire to initiate, besides yourself. So in a situation where you have a second Tyrant doing the heavy duty work this could work. If you are the only Tyrant however against a group of skilled players, Enrage will always, always, always be sub-par to Ignore Pain. ALWAYS. Because those skilled people will punish you for it.

This is like saying Haste is never better than evasion on a reaver. One is obviously more useful and easier to use, but that doesn't mean the other is worthless, it just makes you play differently. Your flaw in this argument is that all of the players I mentioned above do very well against good players. It's rare to see any of the four i mentioned score under 20k as a tyrant, and that IS against those better players you mentioned, while in organized teams.

Since you mentioned my tips were good for beginners, I figured since I constantly play with what I consider the top players these past days I should go into some more advanced advice right?So as a Tyrant you should always be mindful of the number of Hunters in a group if you want to run Enrage. If there's 2 or more and you don't have Ignore Pain, you're basically suiciding. Bola DESTROYS Enrage Tyrants for breakfast. Seriously it's the most obnoxious thing, to pop your Enrage and try and get a good shockwave or a few attacks in , only to get bola'd in the face and then annihilated by incoming fire. A good concept to engage humans with Enrage is popping it before you attack, dropping on them from a cliff or a rooftop, Shockwaving and then Charging immediately so you can avoid possible incoming CC. As I mentioned before ,however, by picking Enrage you aren't an initiator anymore so you have to wait for someone to go in before you or with you , otherwise even if you pop Enrage and charge into them , you will still get shredded.

Absolutely right, and this has been discussed, but it wouldn't be such a big deal if you could still dodge with bola. The testers seem to like it the way it is, but almost all the community players, except hunter players (and even some of them too) find bola pretty brokenly OP for how low the cooldown is combined with how easy it is to land.

Good humans NEVER bunch up and always know how to dodge a Charge most of the time so before Charging in , make sure you understand how the humans are positioned at that moment. Otherwise you will end up being completely dodged+shredded to pieces.Which is why Marathon Charge is in a lot of cases superior. Its long cooldown is an issue for sure but being able to start Charge from a longer distance means the Humans won't hear the audio cue of your voice and you will also have some space to catch those dodging at the last moment.That doesn't mean that regular charge doesn't have its merits. It simply means the skill is a little weird at the moment and in my humble opinion those 2 should be merged together into one skill. Like a 18 cd Charge for 325 damage that goes for 5 seconds or 4.75. But that's another story.

This is an issue with people not charging properly honestly, not as much charge itself. This is also predominantly a marathon charge problem since you can hear it coming from across the dang map. Charge has to be close anyways, so it's useful.

Lastly I want to say this. Breaking 12k with a horrible team is cool, but you could probably break 12k with Ignore Pain too(in my experience), simply by being able to go in more often. And don't forget, being able to effectively soak up damage, allows your team to go in as well and creates more opportunities.Generally when you play with a mindset of dealing damage as a Tyrant , more often than not, you're not doing your job right.But I covered my reasons in my initial post. Of course I'm talking high level play games of which we have very few at the moment and not random games where there's usually 2-3 people who know what they're doing and the rest just try to get to know the game better.Also. Jump is very unpredictable too and VERY terrifying if you know how to manipulate it but I don't want to go into details yet =).


Comments inline...


Jump isn't always the greatest, it has it's places and benefits, but not always. Strike is a very knowledgeable player, and a veteran. You're going to have a hard time finding a player to say he's wrong. He might not be 100% correct, but he knows very well his own abilities. He's better than I am, that's for sure.

I'm not saying you're completely wrong, but as a newer player (and yes, 17 hrs is considered new still, esp since there's no teams....) you'd do well to pay attention to what he says.

CoOkiedude
13th Feb 2014, 02:49
Comments inline...


Jump isn't always the greatest, it has it's places and benefits, but not always. Strike is a very knowledgeable player, and a veteran. You're going to have a hard time finding a player to say he's wrong. He might not be 100% correct, but he knows very well his own abilities. He's better than I am, that's for sure.

I'm not saying you're completely wrong, but as a newer player (and yes, 17 hrs is considered new still, esp since there's no teams....) you'd do well to pay attention to what he says.

You understand that it's profile game time right? I have 100 hours logged on Nosgoth and I'm fairly certain that's not being "new" in ANY game. But you know, to each his own.Also, I play with Plux very regularly and I'm very aware of how he plays with Tyrant and we very often discuss different strategies and playstyles. I can understand if Strike is your friend /brother-in-arms you'll take his side or whatever this red-painted attack on the eyes is. But please leave the patronizing out of this. It's rude.

And I'd rather playtest against good players and learn on my own , than take the word of someone who is a complete stranger to me.If you don't do that , that's your problem. That's not how I do things.Also . I wasn't in any shape or form trying to say Strike is a bad player or that he is wrong, I was merely pointing out things I disagree with hence the detailed explanations of my arguments and opinions so as not to offend anyone.In fact , the point of my post, which you unfortunately missed, is to disagree on specific things and create a discussion / debate with Strike so I can see his counterarguments. I want to know what his take on Tyrant's playstyle is and I want him to share his own experiences. That's why I quoted HIM not you.Also , Strike was perfectly polite and the only reason I mentioned my game time was to show him that I wasn't yet another truly newer player who thought he had a grip on things.

Also, my "flawed" argument is based on actual PERSONAL gameplay experience vs the really good players as TYRANT. And by the way, that Haste vs Evasion thing only serves to bolster my argument since there's a fundamental difference in the core of a Reaver and a Tyrant. One has 1450 hp the other doesn't. Why do you think that is? Is it for you to deal more damage , or is it perhaps for you to soak up more damage and ammo so that your 1050 hp Reaver buddy can follow up with a pounce? I choose to believe the latter. It's my opinion. Nothing more.

On a final note. I know you're a good kid and you have a good reputation and I don't want to make any enemies because frankly this is the internet and it's easy to mistake one thing for another. But my general gripe with some of your comments is that you don't offer any further insight into the subject at hand, nor do you elaborate on specific Tyrant mechanics and / or matchups. You simply say that " I've seen player X do well with that skill every time so he must be right and your argument is flawed". You don't offer examples from your own time with a Tyrant , you simply tell me that someone else is probably better than me/more experienced than me , because you don't know me and you know them and you have seen them do well, so I should listen to them. Do you see my problem? I have nothing against you but the way you comment offends me.

It's late here and I'm a little cranky because I have been playing with 35 fps all day for NO reason and I'm too tired to be as polite as I would like so I leave you with this. If I have been rude, forgive me but I explained what provoked my frustration. If you can understand my issue then all is well and I love you anyway.

cmstache
13th Feb 2014, 03:00
I understand well how things can be misconstrued on the interwebz. But, for clarification purposes, I'm not adding much here because I am terrible with a tyrant. Hunter and Tyrant are by far and away my worst classes. Any strategies I have won't be of much use. I can fight them all day, but not as one.

And I'm not saying he's good because I've seen him do well. I'm saying he does well at least 75% of the games I've played in nosgoth have been on his team with voice chat. I know what and why he's doing what he's doing. In all fairness I haven't been on voice-chat with you, so I don't know what you're thinking. You're a decent player in your own right, but I don't feel you (or myself for that matter) are good enough to say a specific skill flat out won't work, as you came across saying. Obviously, echolocation is the exception to that statement.....

CoOkiedude
13th Feb 2014, 03:13
I understand well how things can be misconstrued on the interwebz. But, for clarification purposes, I'm not adding much here because I am terrible with a tyrant. Hunter and Tyrant are by far and away my worst classes. Any strategies I have won't be of much use. I can fight them all day, but not as one.

And I'm not saying he's good because I've seen him do well. I'm saying he does well at least 75% of the games I've played in nosgoth have been on his team with voice chat. I know what and why he's doing what he's doing. In all fairness I haven't been on voice-chat with you, so I don't know what you're thinking. You're a decent player in your own right, but I don't feel you (or myself for that matter) are good enough to say a specific skill flat out won't work, as you came across saying. Obviously, echolocation is the exception to that statement.....

See this is a point I understand more clearly. You are correct in saying that and perhaps my adamant support of Ignore Pain helped give off the wrong impression but I truly do not believe that Enrage is a bad skill.In ANY way. I just theorize through my own experience playing as and against a Tyrant , that come party-locking /competitive play, Ignore Pain will outshine Enrage in setups with a single Tyrant. Also I'm very envious of you because all the people I'd like to play with , with voice chat, always end up on the opposing team. :(

Oroibahazopi
13th Feb 2014, 09:58
Well I'm with cookie, Enrage absolutely needs a proper team to help manage aggro. Same as haste. There are some people who go as far as to say Haste and Enrage are really bad since you can't break CC, but I'm more cautious than that since we haven't been able to play in a truly competitive environment yet.

I aim to not die at all in matches as a tyrant, denying kills is as important as getting them, I can't see that working with Enrage.

Razaiim
13th Feb 2014, 21:40
Well I'm with cookie, Enrage absolutely needs a proper team to help manage aggro. Same as haste. There are some people who go as far as to say Haste and Enrage are really bad since you can't break CC, but I'm more cautious than that since we haven't been able to play in a truly competitive environment yet.

I aim to not die at all in matches as a tyrant, denying kills is as important as getting them, I can't see that working with Enrage.

Currently the reason why I haven't bought Enrage / Haste is because teams still average 2-3 hunters, and due to the large influx of new players, can't always count on the skill from the players I grew accustomed to being around, yourself, omega, rat, hugz, sausage etc... Another concern, tying back to the hunter point, is that currently, every hunter has a bola. I am that as soon as hunters get a viable skill to replace bola/poison in that slot, that isn't just another CC, then haste and enrage will have an expanded role in the game.

Two new human classes are also on the way. So long as they aren't always packing CC like the hunter, then the previous point also applies.

CoOkiedude
15th Feb 2014, 21:08
Currently the reason why I haven't bought Enrage / Haste is because teams still average 2-3 hunters, and due to the large influx of new players, can't always count on the skill from the players I grew accustomed to being around, yourself, omega, rat, hugz, sausage etc... Another concern, tying back to the hunter point, is that currently, every hunter has a bola. I am that as soon as hunters get a viable skill to replace bola/poison in that slot, that isn't just another CC, then haste and enrage will have an expanded role in the game.

Two new human classes are also on the way. So long as they aren't always packing CC like the hunter, then the previous point also applies.

Very interesting point you brought up with the hard CC. Honestly I wouldn't feel so screwed if I could at least dodge a little bit while bola'd. Cmstache mentioned this in this thread and I think perhaps it could be looked into. Derputy Potato told me at a certain point in the Alpha you could dodge while under bola CC ? Or did I mishear?If so why was it changed? Either way it's currently the only CC in the game that absolutely neutralizes a vampire even though they have skills that can break out of it.

The problem is that while I understand that when you pick Enrage or Haste the tradeoff for the damage should be survivability, currently with bola it feels like it's too extreme. You don't get bola'd while buffed, you do your thing. You DO get bola'd,you are DONE. Nothing to do but look pretty while you die.This coupled with the low duration (for understandable balance purposes) of the aforementioned offensive buffs feels a little too harsh. But then again, maybe this is all bad feedback since we can't play competitively in teams yet, to accurately test if this is the case.

cmstache
15th Feb 2014, 21:21
We've confirmed with the QA guys that they are the ones who had it changed. While, I agree that many changes they do aren't bad I think they really messed this one up bad. I don't know any actually players (who don't play hunter exclusively) that like the change. Few to no players complained before it happened, and has been a pain in the nuts ever since, You are right, it's just toooo extreme. The payoff is too big for such an easily usable skill, Even the knives, which lean a bit strong, aren't that strong.

CoOkiedude
15th Feb 2014, 22:04
We've confirmed with the QA guys that they are the ones who had it changed. While, I agree that many changes they do aren't bad I think they really messed this one up bad. I don't know any actually players (who don't play hunter exclusively) that like the change. Few to no players complained before it happened, and has been a pain in the nuts ever since, You are right, it's just toooo extreme. The payoff is too big for such an easily usable skill, Even the knives, which lean a bit strong, aren't that strong.

I just had an idea. What if, while you are bola'd , if they attack you the bola breaks after a certain damage cap. That way bola won't be as mindless as before and people will also have an actual choice between focusing a CC'd vampire or ignoring it for another one.AND you won't feel so screwed when you pick Enrage or Haste anymore since if they decide to spray you with bolts you break out of it sooner and get a few shots in yourself.AND as vampire you have an active choice of either jumping into incoming fire to get out of bola or wait it out!Interesting?

Edit: It's a given, of course, that poison bola damage doesn't count towards that amount. Also I was thinking , perhaps the damage cap for the regular bola would be a bit higher than the poison so as to differentiate them further.

cmstache
15th Feb 2014, 22:34
This might not be a bad idea. Although, i did forget to mention. Any penalties for being caught by bola is harsh vs a team.

CoOkiedude
15th Feb 2014, 22:38
I'm assuming you mean for the team using the bola? Nonetheless I was thinking this way bola would be toned down in strength and would also open up more gameplay options.And would actually allow other skills to be viable when they come out to compete with bola for the slot.

cmstache
16th Feb 2014, 01:11
Yes, the team using a bola is ideally much more synchronized. This means that the bola'd individual gets instantly punished.

CoOkiedude
16th Feb 2014, 02:02
Yes, the team using a bola is ideally much more synchronized. This means that the bola'd individual gets instantly punished.

Right I got it now. You're not commenting in reference to my idea, it's a general remark about the extra power of bola in a team setting. Sorry I'm slow today -_-

CoOkiedude
17th Feb 2014, 02:46
Oh ! Another idea I had was that instead of a damage cap, bola could perhaps be broken by a friendly vampire attacking you! It could for example take two melee hits to break or something. I know I might be stretching this particular issue but this is alpha so I'm guessing idea time is now or never :P

Oroibahazopi
17th Feb 2014, 13:36
Would need to remove cleave then or in a big melee brawl bola would be rendered useless.

cmstache
17th Feb 2014, 15:21
They just need to cut the duration down by about 40%. Then it wouldn't be such a huge deal. It's not that I can't do anything.. it's that I can't do anything for as long as I can. Even the badass knives don't hurt that much.

CoOkiedude
17th Feb 2014, 17:42
Would need to remove cleave then or in a big melee brawl bola would be rendered useless.

I see your point but that's a very specific situation and I'm not sure it would happen too often.Plus from a different point of view, it would make using bola not as brainless. The thing is, Bola successfully punishes vampires who pick offensive buffs instead of defensive. My problem is , there is no counterplay to it. You get hit , you die. I wanted to come up with a few ideas that would allow the hunter to keep them in check as long as he does with bola but at the same time would have some sort of counter-mechanic to it besides the classic "Run Takeoff-Ignore Pain-Evasion or die horribly." I believe that lowering the duration would not help as much. In fact I think a lower duration would make it go from godly to "eh" very fast... Arrgh. It's difficult to figure this out :D

cmstache
17th Feb 2014, 18:49
How would 2 second duration break it? Not only does it cancel abilities, but it keeps you from using anything after. 2 seconds is a LONG time in a fight, 4 is just insane. Half the fight is over.

CoOkiedude
17th Feb 2014, 19:15
How would 2 second duration break it? Not only does it cancel abilities, but it keeps you from using anything after. 2 seconds is a LONG time in a fight, 4 is just insane. Half the fight is over.

It won't necessarily break it , I just think it might make it a touch negligible.2 seconds is a lot I know but given that the buffs last 7 it's not that much...

cmstache
17th Feb 2014, 19:37
The defensive buffs break it, so regardless it won't matter about duration. As far as Enrage and Haste go, it's still not a major point. You've successfully turned them from offensive to defensive (or at least turning the match 4v4 into 3v4), thus still blowing their skill, and if they are already activated they just run away faster. Worst case scenario: it's bumped up to 2.5 or 3 seconds, still slightly more tolerable than now. There isn't a single ability other than bola that humans have that can make a vampire completely and utterly useless and helpless at the same time.

CoOkiedude
17th Feb 2014, 19:45
There isn't a single ability other than bola that humans have that can make a vampire completely and utterly useless and helpless at the same time.

I believe we agreed on that :P I like 2.5-3 seconds better as a start. If it would have to be a straight up nerf I mean. I still think that introducing some sort of counter-mechanic would be cooler but perhaps it's not necessary.

cmstache
17th Feb 2014, 19:47
The defensive perks ARE the straight up counters. And those will also have partial nerfs if bola has a nerf, since many people use it specifically against bola.

CoOkiedude
17th Feb 2014, 23:03
The defensive perks ARE the straight up counters. And those will also have partial nerfs if bola has a nerf, since many people use it specifically against bola.

Perhaps the current issue is, much like Choking Haze , that Bola is the only skill available to the hunter for his Q ability. So maybe if more viable skills were introduced we could see a switch from Bola and then other vampire skills could shine too. I agree that the defensive skills are a counter-measure absolutely but we also commented on how frustrating it is to run offensive skills only to get destroyed by Hunters.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, Bola punishes you for running offensive Buffs but even if you run defensive abilities, due to their nature of disabling your attack, Bola has accomplished its purpose by keeping you out of the fight, again .You might not die but you don't do damage either so it's effectively still a 3v4. It's a peculiar subject for sure.

cmstache
17th Feb 2014, 23:48
I guess what I'm trying to say is, Bola punishes you for running offensive Buffs but even if you run defensive abilities, due to their nature of disabling your attack, Bola has accomplished its purpose by keeping you out of the fight, again .You might not die but you don't do damage either so it's effectively still a 3v4.
That's probably a better analogy.

Phaneron
2nd Mar 2014, 17:04
I guess it's time I also commented on the tyrant gameplay. First of all you guys seem to all agree that jump + ignore pain is a must if you want to do some jumping around. I've been running jump with enrage for quite a while now and i must admit that enrage is far superior to ignore pain. Not only you can jump for longer distances but also you can deal up to a whopping 650 damage if you aim correctly (and that's done with full hp). That is enough to one shot anything after landing. If combined with chocking haze it becomes absolutely brutal. I also run berserk perk which works perfectly in this setup (if you get low on hp you practically instagib anything with shockwave).

I generally think that ignore pain is simply bad. It's the equivalent of scout's invisibility. A skill that lets you live a bit longer while your team gets butchered and you can't do anything to help them. If you pop it when you are low the damage reduction is often not high enough to keep you alive anyway. If you pop it to break out of bolla it actually takes you longer to attack anything than if you just let it finish. Also a good hunter will let your ignore pain finish and then bolla you to deny any damage or wait untill you almost reach the top of the building to force you back to the ground. This skill is in no way comparable to reaver's evasion thingy. Reavers can jump in, drop couple fast melees to finish off low hp humans and then pop evasion and run away without loosing much hp. This kind of scenario is not possible as a tyrant. You are a big and slow target and either you straight up die in such engagement, or you get away but you are so low on hp that you can't effectively fight, or you pop ignore early and do no damage at all.

Successful jumping is massively dependant on your map knowlege. If you don't know exactly how far you can reach there is no way you can line up a perfect jump. If you jump onto a structure that has higher elevation than the spot from where you launched you won't trigger a cooldown which allows you to traverse the map extremly fast and you can make some ginormous cross map double jumps. Many buildings have ceiling holes that you can abuse since nobody expects a tyrant falling through there. If you plan to engage with a jump you should always wait until the scouts look the other way without revealing your location and you should almost never jump from a top of a building.

Most of the times after a good jump you will not get a bolla to your face straight away because all the nearby humans are either staggered or rolled out of range which gives you enough time to doge (especially with enrage on). Even if you get cc'd you simply line of sight nearby humans and line up a nice shockwave as soon as they come from behind a corner. All the damage that you soak only makes your attacks more deadly and often you deal so much damage with the jump that humans are more concerned about staying alive than finishing you off. If any human leftovers survive your team's assault you can easily chase them with another jump.

The biggest threats to this kind of tyrant gameplay are of course all the area of effect skills, especially alch's poison and scout's turret. Also you get much heavier damage form hunter's explosive shot since tyrants are so big that they take all 3 shots directly to the face. Also alch's cannon can be extremly deadly if you get stuck in a corner.

Xenonetix
2nd Mar 2014, 19:32
Moved this to the Guides & Tactics forum - Hope that's ok :)

~ Xenon ~

Khalith
2nd Mar 2014, 21:01
I love the berserk + jump combo. Only place I don't use it so much is in freeport, I feel like it has more ceilings/walls compared to the other maps, for that map I prefer ignore pain and marathon charge. For perk I actually like the 5% attack speed, it just gets funky when you swing, your animation nearly completes then you get stunned/bola'd and the damage doesn't go through even though you were a millisecond away from finishing your attack, pretty obnoxious when it happens. At least with the 5% I have a better chance of hitting. Though I also like the increased climb speed, it's saved me several times.