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sakurai
15th Jan 2009, 15:02
I'm an avid Deus Ex fan as most people here are. Having played the last 2 Deus Ex games, I've come to a frustrating conclusion that the stealth system is not emphasised enough.

Firstly, there is a lack of critical kills. Sure sniper head shot is a standard way. But melee seems to be lacking in it. Eg. Neck-snapping (as stated by someone in the forum), throat-cutting with knife, sword-stabbing (Vampire the Masquerade style), or simply knocking someone out. Of course all these are stealth manuevers aka performable only from behind.

Some people might say this makes the game too easy, but this is where bots, turrets come in.

Secondly, playing with the situation. Eg. Like in hitman, one could creep up upon an enemy on the ledge and push him off the ledge. Sweet and simple, makes it look like an accident too, but will likely raise in alarm in Deus Ex.

Now, some people would say: this gives too much emphasis on stealth. Now tell me, in modern warfare be it espionage or army. Emphasis has always been on stealth. The only people whom you see charging in while spraying their ARs or MGs are terrorists. Also in any FPS, there is always the option of charging in and killing everyone. Do it if you do not like the stealth. However I always have to mention that realistically, even IF you are Mr Super-Biomod, the chances of winning a 10-to-1 gunfight is nil.

Others might say: If I wanna play like this, I'll play hitman/vampire. Well, these are only features. And game features are what enhances gameplay other than plot/storyline. Especially in an rpg-type of fps. You wouldn't want to see another generic fps with a good storyline would you. And also, my reply would be: go back and play Deus Ex then. Honestly, as a DX fan, I'm definitely not looking to play a graphically upgraded version of Deus Ex. I want a more "jucier" game. With perhaps different types of gameplay.

Well, regarding my melee issue. There was another thread about it. But my opinion would be melee has always been too weak. My experience in DX2:IW, even with strength bio-mods max-ed up. I needed 3-4 blows with my energy blade to kill a soldier. Yes, a soldier, not templar armour or elite illuminati. Honestly, this is quite dumb and makes melee very redundant. If Eidos were to continue with such melee damage, I'ld suggest removing melee altogether. Or simply as a stealth manuever. Inbalance issue? My say would be that melee requires you to be adjacent to the target. You can't possibly charge in a 10-to-1 gunfight with a sword. Perhaps 1-on-1. 10-to-1 is where the taking cover system would come in.

And perhaps let the AI play a bit of stealth too? While you are being outnumbered in a gunfight, taking cover and trying to shoot the enemy. An enemy sprays his gun to distract you while his other mate perhaps try to flank you? Spraying/Cover fire is standard military tactics. Flanking is another tactic which requires stealth. I hope these are reasonable.

Disclaimer: Sorry for the Wall of text damage +999,999. This is a suggestion to the developers and voicing my opinions. We could discuss and perhaps make DX3 or perhaps a DX4 a better game?

Spiffmeister
15th Jan 2009, 15:34
Well put sakurai, I'd love to see some splinter cell style neck breaking action :D . It would have to be skill based of course though, to keep with DX tradition :cool: . You could have... say:

Level 1 Stealth - Footsteps made slightly more silent, Increased melee damage while in stealth mode (knock soldiers out).
Level 2 Stealth - Footsteps made even more silent, Increased melee damage while in stealth mode (this would kill normal soldiers, wound armoured one)
Level 3 Stealth - Footsteps are completely silent, Ability to kill any opponent with melee out of stealth mode.

Or something along those lines :p .

As for the AI, I hope they are smart enough to cover each other in a fire fight, I also wouldn't mind some F.E.A.R style communication between them, with one yelling at the others to do things.

rokstrombo
15th Jan 2009, 16:10
I think you raise some good points. However one gameplay issue in Deus Ex that always bugged me (but which was absent in the Hitman games) was that the enemies would forget about your presence about 30 seconds after they lost sight of you.

Hitman 2 introduced a feature where the player was rewarded for completing a mission without any unnecessary kills or shots, and without raising any alarms. This was a great way to maintain continuity in the storyline (which wasn't really exploited until Hitman Blood Money), and also to keep players in the game world for extended periods without continually hitting quick save (more immersing). In Deus Ex, the player was instead rewarded for exploration and conservation of resources. It was advantageous to take out a couple of guards, hide, quick save, and repeat. This allowed the player to explore every path in every map, and to collect more equipment and skill points without significant penalty. It was not necessary to budget inventory for exploration, because the player was inevitably able to horde throughout most of the game. Also, it was often impossible to play like Rambo due to the fact that even with relentless hording your character was still largely too weak to efficiently take on more than 2 or 3 guards at a time. In this way, the player's choices were often more limited than they appeared... you ended up hording regardless!

I only bring this up because I think any significant changes to the melee and stealth features in Deus Ex 3 would be mostly negated by the above two issues. There is not much point implementing new stealth tactics if NPCs will forget about your gunfire in 30 seconds. There is not much point using melee combat at all if the player can hit quick load every time they miss a shot (and thus always have enough ammo to shoot everyone once). And there is not much point being stealthy when the game makes little distinction between sneaking and killing everyone by exploiting the AI.

I think your idea of allowing enemy NPCs to use stealth tactics would be really cool! I just hope Mr Jensen will get enough ammo and skill to use his weapons against multiple opponents without healing a couple of times, then hitting F9 and trying to do it again without missing his shots!

KaiTenSatsuma
15th Jan 2009, 17:09
Level 1 Stealth - Footsteps made slightly more silent, Increased melee damage while in stealth mode (knock soldiers out).
Level 2 Stealth - Footsteps made even more silent, Increased melee damage while in stealth mode (this would kill normal soldiers, wound armoured one)
Level 3 Stealth - Footsteps are completely silent, Ability to kill any opponent with melee out of stealth mode.

:cringes: That sounds a bit too close to Oblivion...but keeping that in mind, unlike Oblivion you probably won't be able to abusively train one skill by following someone around stealthily, point limits and all, That you would probably limit yourself, at least temporarily, in other aspects by purely spending on getting max stealth.

Not to mention your guns would be eventually pea shooters against advanced foes...speaking of which, I know its a story thing, but how would you intend to justify weapons upgrades? I mean...You get captured and disarmed -> well crap, there goes three levels worth of Assault Rifle upgrades.

Nathan2000
15th Jan 2009, 17:23
I think you raise some good points. However one gameplay issue in Deus Ex that always bugged me (but which was absent in the Hitman games) was that the enemies would forget about your presence about 30 seconds after they lost sight of you.

How can that encourage quick-saving the game? It's rather inversely - the alarm timer was designed to reduce the penalty the player has to take for a failed stealth attempt. He is encouraged to wait till it's quiet and try again rather than hitting quick-load key.

It's Hitman that sounds more like quicksaving after every successfully solved problem. I didn't play it, though, so I can't know for sure.

KaiTenSatsuma
15th Jan 2009, 20:44
Actually Hitman punished you, incessantly so...Blood Money got a bit ridiculous with the variability of what guards see, it was unpredictable even on some of the more basic levels. Its like randomly rewarding and punishing the player, making you afraid to take a chance but at the same time afraid to play it safe because you might get discovered at any given moment because you stood somewhere too long and don't ACTUALLY speak spanish, and...well, rules change from stage to stage, the "accidental death" thing was ridiculous at times as well as complicating simple jobs.

Hitman: Contracts didn't really have this problem, you could most often count on certain things to at least stay true...Blood Money was a save-a-thon for me :/

sakurai
16th Jan 2009, 04:39
I think you raise some good points. However one gameplay issue in Deus Ex that always bugged me (but which was absent in the Hitman games) was that the enemies would forget about your presence about 30 seconds after they lost sight of you.

Hitman 2 introduced a feature where the player was rewarded for completing a mission without any unnecessary kills or shots, and without raising any alarms. This was a great way to maintain continuity in the storyline (which wasn't really exploited until Hitman Blood Money), and also to keep players in the game world for extended periods without continually hitting quick save (more immersing). In Deus Ex, the player was instead rewarded for exploration and conservation of resources. It was advantageous to take out a couple of guards, hide, quick save, and repeat. This allowed the player to explore every path in every map, and to collect more equipment and skill points without significant penalty. It was not necessary to budget inventory for exploration, because the player was inevitably able to horde throughout most of the game. Also, it was often impossible to play like Rambo due to the fact that even with relentless hording your character was still largely too weak to efficiently take on more than 2 or 3 guards at a time. In this way, the player's choices were often more limited than they appeared... you ended up hording regardless!

I only bring this up because I think any significant changes to the melee and stealth features in Deus Ex 3 would be mostly negated by the above two issues. There is not much point implementing new stealth tactics if NPCs will forget about your gunfire in 30 seconds. There is not much point using melee combat at all if the player can hit quick load every time they miss a shot (and thus always have enough ammo to shoot everyone once). And there is not much point being stealthy when the game makes little distinction between sneaking and killing everyone by exploiting the AI.

I think your idea of allowing enemy NPCs to use stealth tactics would be really cool! I just hope Mr Jensen will get enough ammo and skill to use his weapons against multiple opponents without healing a couple of times, then hitting F9 and trying to do it again without missing his shots!

Well, this 30s thing is a flaw in most stealth fps games i've played. But without it, it would definitely spoil the fun. However, perhaps there could be 3 levels of alert, aka green, yellow, red? With a permanent raise to level 2 and a cooldown to bring level 3 down to level 2.
Eg:
Level 1 - Normal
Level 2 - Alert
Level 3 - Alarm


:cringes: That sounds a bit too close to Oblivion...but keeping that in mind, unlike Oblivion you probably won't be able to abusively train one skill by following someone around stealthily, point limits and all, That you would probably limit yourself, at least temporarily, in other aspects by purely spending on getting max stealth.

Not to mention your guns would be eventually pea shooters against advanced foes...speaking of which, I know its a story thing, but how would you intend to justify weapons upgrades? I mean...You get captured and disarmed -> well crap, there goes three levels worth of Assault Rifle upgrades.

As I've mentioned. Modern warfare is based alot on stealth/covert ops. Thus the emphasis on stealth in modern warfare. However guns are still needed. Perhaps for people who would like stealthy headshots (silenced of course) and in gunfights. Stealth is practically useless in gunfights, unless you outnumber the opponent and are able to flank them. What I disliked about the previous 2 DX was that end game, due to the templar armor or MIB/WIB, your guns were practically pea shooters regardless of weapon mods. Even the mag rail vs the templar armor was crap. Why they even put the mag rail into the game was perhaps just for story? It was a crappy piece of ammo waster imo. But not sure what would be a good remedy for this.

Also, I just remembered the crossbow/boltcaster. Can't rmb DX1, but in DX2 the boltcaster was practically useless. Too weak. I'm not sure if this is possible. But perhaps it would be great that the toxin arrow only works on an un-armored area? Eg. Neck, head(with no helmet on). Definitely wouldn't make sense that a toxin arrow can penetrate armour.
Well, in the previous DX games the 'armors' were all for asthetic purposes if I'm not wrong, except the templar armor of course. Haha.

rokstrombo
16th Jan 2009, 05:06
How can that encourage quick-saving the game? It's rather inversely - the alarm timer was designed to reduce the penalty the player has to take for a failed stealth attempt. He is encouraged to wait till it's quiet and try again rather than hitting quick-load key.

It's Hitman that sounds more like quicksaving after every successfully solved problem. I didn't play it, though, so I can't know for sure.

I didn't word my post very well. I meant to say only that the alarm timer reduced my perceived immersion in the game. I agree that such a timer could reduce quick saving, but my complaint is more with the fact that the player's actions are not persistent in this regard. I think this would be a serious obstacle to giving the player more stealthy choices as suggested in the OP because unlimited AI resets typically reduce the value of alternative approaches.

Regarding the Hitman games, I should have said that saves were limited. It wasn't the perfect system by any means, as KaiTenSatsuma suggested because relatively unpredictable AI was often more responsible for repeat plays than the player's mistakes. That said, I think IOI's attempt at a more persistent game world featuring relatively long levels was a very interesting concept that could perhaps improve Deus Ex 3 if implemented correctly IMHO :)

rokstrombo
16th Jan 2009, 05:28
Actually Hitman punished you, incessantly so...Blood Money got a bit ridiculous with the variability of what guards see, it was unpredictable even on some of the more basic levels. Its like randomly rewarding and punishing the player, making you afraid to take a chance but at the same time afraid to play it safe because you might get discovered at any given moment because you stood somewhere too long and don't ACTUALLY speak spanish, and...well, rules change from stage to stage, the "accidental death" thing was ridiculous at times as well as complicating simple jobs.

Hitman: Contracts didn't really have this problem, you could most often count on certain things to at least stay true...Blood Money was a save-a-thon for me :/

I definitely agree with you that the Hitman games were often frustrating due to variability in the guard's AI. This variability was often more responsible for repeat plays than the player's actions due to the difficulty of many approaches. But despite the flaws, I think it is an interesting attempt at maintaining persistence in the player's actions. Stealth and vigil were important because once your cover was blown, it was... well blown!

I didn't raise my point very clearly at all, but what I really liked about this approach was that in Blood Money the player's actions were mostly persistent from the beginning of the first mission to the end of the last. If you killed a lot of guards at one point, future guards would be more jumpy (in theory... it didn't always work out so smoothly). If an alarm was sounded during a mission, the guards would not stop looking for you until you were dead. The way this was abstracted for the player was a bit mechanical. For example, "Silent Assassin" and "Mass murderer" together with detailed stats on the number of shots and alerts etc. But, this persistence had the potential to make the player consider the implications of their every action on the future of the game. It wasn't the best implementation by any means, but I think it is something worth investigating for a Deus Ex game.

rokstrombo
16th Jan 2009, 05:49
Well, this 30s thing is a flaw in most stealth fps games i've played. But without it, it would definitely spoil the fun. However, perhaps there could be 3 levels of alert, aka green, yellow, red? With a permanent raise to level 2 and a cooldown to bring level 3 down to level 2.
Eg:
Level 1 - Normal
Level 2 - Alert
Level 3 - Alarm

Yes, I like that!

The way that this could reduce quick saves is that the player may not necessarily be able to foresee the consequences of their actions beyond avoiding the next obstacle. For example, the player may avoid a security bot but then be forced to kill a patrolling guard to avoid triggering the alarm. But this may be in a location where the corpse cannot be hidden unless 2 or 3 more guards are quickly and quietly taken out. So the player is encouraged to play through 4 or 5 challenges before they have the opportunity to save, which keeps them in the game world for longer. If they save too early, it might be at a point where it is impossible to prevent the alarm sounding, persistently raising the enemy's alertness and imposing negative consequences for the player's lack of consideration.

In the previous Deus Ex games, there are no consequences for hitting quick save after each one of these challenges. Even if an alert is later sounded, the player can just shoot a couple of guards and run away. The alert will stop and the next time it will easier to progress because two of the guards are dead. There is little distinction between stealth tactics and otherwise because the game will forget in 30 seconds. Thus, I believe without a higher level of persistence of the player's actions, many changes to the stealth and melee combat systems will be cosmetic only.

NK007
16th Jan 2009, 08:45
This feature cheapens the game. Why? For the simple reason that, if you give me that possibility, I will go around the level, incessantly snapping necks and saving. Snapping necks and saving. Until I have a mountain of bodies reaching my head, I would not begin to do my objectives.

Also, Blood Money was brilliant. I did not find many inconsistencies in the AI, unless they changed patrol routes all of a sudden. Usually even if you walked into an area that was restricted, you were given time to get out. Also, the acrobatics was expanded on, and I found it really cool to be mantling, shimmying and jumping window to window with a bald "businessman" in a very expensive suit. Easily one of my top 5 games.

In addition: flanking. I don't know how much you can consider this stealth, since in flanking, the fight has already begun and the enemy is well aware of your presence and is locked and loaded. It is a battlefield tactic, and flanking always ends in opening fire on the enemy with as much violence and surprise as possible. The AI do it in a LOT of games, BTW, I don't know if intentionally or not. Soldiers: Heroes of World War II (a great game I'm playing right now), has enemies hide in bushes, behind trees, creeping up you, throwing grenades and knowing when to run away. They sometimes even get the drop on you, a surprising fact given that it is a top-down game!

dixieflatline
16th Jan 2009, 22:37
I'd love to see the AI use stealth. I don't think I've ever played a single game that had guns in it, where the enemies were capable of using stealth, or snuck up on you without you noticing. That'd be awesome. Personally, the more difficult the better, when it goes to games like these.

sakurai
17th Jan 2009, 13:13
This feature cheapens the game. Why? For the simple reason that, if you give me that possibility, I will go around the level, incessantly snapping necks and saving. Snapping necks and saving. Until I have a mountain of bodies reaching my head, I would not begin to do my objectives.

Also, Blood Money was brilliant. I did not find many inconsistencies in the AI, unless they changed patrol routes all of a sudden. Usually even if you walked into an area that was restricted, you were given time to get out. Also, the acrobatics was expanded on, and I found it really cool to be mantling, shimmying and jumping window to window with a bald "businessman" in a very expensive suit. Easily one of my top 5 games.

In addition: flanking. I don't know how much you can consider this stealth, since in flanking, the fight has already begun and the enemy is well aware of your presence and is locked and loaded. It is a battlefield tactic, and flanking always ends in opening fire on the enemy with as much violence and surprise as possible. The AI do it in a LOT of games, BTW, I don't know if intentionally or not. Soldiers: Heroes of World War II (a great game I'm playing right now), has enemies hide in bushes, behind trees, creeping up you, throwing grenades and knowing when to run away. They sometimes even get the drop on you, a surprising fact given that it is a top-down game!

It may or may not cheapen the gameplay. As I've mentioned, the feature can be implemented but its up to you to use it. You could for example, simply use a silenced pistol and do headshots instead. Alot of emphasis is based on stealth nowadays, and I'll expect more in the future which DX is based in. Simply because stealth increases your chances of survival and increases your offensive power. Its common sense to take down an opponent by neck snapping, then hide his body and go for the next rather than charging in and go rambo. However, to reduce your 'cheap' gaming, Eidos could perhaps make a guard change system AI or something of the like. When they realise a fellow guard is missing, he becomes suspicious. And also as I've stated. you can't snap bots. There are bots in this game. It shouldn't be as easy as you think.

If this is cheapening the gameplay, then tell me how is using a silenced weapon to headshot the guard, take his ammo, save and repeat not cheapening gameplay?

Secondly, flanking isn't exactly stealth, but it requires stealth. You can't expect to flank the enemy if he know's you're flanking him. That just defeats the purpose. In reality, if you're being flanked and the ones flanking you shoots at you or throw the grenade, your chances of survival are close to zero.

Anyway to clairfy yet again why I think stealth should have more emphasis:
For example you would like to infiltrate a place like the Mako Lab in DX2. You're not gonna go in and start firing. You would want to pick out designated guards along the way to the boss or the hostage whether you are covert ops trained or not. Its just common sense. Its not realistic to fire a gun and not alert the entire area (without silencer of course). If you've fired a real firearms you would know how loud it is. Therefore, emphasis on stealth. Its just not logical especially in modern day to not use stealth and not get the entire area alerted. And it actually DOES make sense if you enter a gunfight, all other AIs are gonna start charging to your location rather than wait at its 'patrol path' for you to take out after you're done with the gunfight.

Especially with the previous two games, in DX1, you're from UNATCO, you SHOULD be trained in covert ops. DX2, needless to say, you were trained in covert ops in Tarsus. What I was and still am displeased about is that they allowed you the stealth route in both games, yet it is only half complete. Well, I can't argue on DX3 though. Lol. You're a security guard. Haha.

Anyway,
A little modification to Spiffmeister's suggestion of skill:


Level 1 Stealth - Footsteps made slightly more silent, Increased melee damage while in stealth mode (knock soldiers out).
Level 2 Stealth - Footsteps made even more silent, Increased melee damage while in stealth mode (this would kill normal soldiers, wound armoured one)
Level 3 Stealth - Footsteps are completely silent, Ability to kill any opponent with melee out of stealth mode.

Perhaps you could another skill called martial arts which MUST work in conjunction with Stealth for neck snapping. Many would perhaps view martial arts as redundant and not take it?
Level 1 Martial Arts - Trained in martial arts, Melee damage increases.
Level 2 Martial Arts - Skilled in martial arts, Melee damage increases. Able to knock unarmoured enemy out from behind (with level 2 stealth). Able to do close range manuevers. (Throwing enemy to the ground induces a ? second stun) (optional. Just a suggestion). Able to do lethal kills to unarmoured enemy with weapon. (eg. stabbing with a sword/knife)
Level 3 Martial Arts - Master in martial arts, Melee damage maxed. Able to disarm the opponent. Able to kill armoured enemy from behind (with level 3 stealth). Able to do lethal kills to armoured enemy with weapons.

I would definitely be disappointed if DX3 were just a generic fps + rpg elements + conspiracy storyline. But of course, I'm not saying I wouldn't play it. :p

sakurai
17th Jan 2009, 13:22
I'd love to see the AI use stealth. I don't think I've ever played a single game that had guns in it, where the enemies were capable of using stealth, or snuck up on you without you noticing. That'd be awesome. Personally, the more difficult the better, when it goes to games like these.

I'm not sure if this is counted but in Crysis you actually encounter opponents using cloak on their nanosuits. But then they were still pretty dumb anyway. So I found it was quite a useless 'stealth'. But they were freaking hard to kill though.

KaiTenSatsuma
17th Jan 2009, 16:20
I've noticed a common thing between all of the complaints and its that a whole load of them are "What if"s
"What if I go around saving after each snapped neck?"
"What if I decide to use a grenade?
"What if I miss a jump?"

Simple solution: THEN DON'T, you may have a problem with the possibility of a system being abused, but then again you don't aim to abuse it.

If you do aim to abuse it, its to further enjoy the game!

El_Bel
17th Jan 2009, 17:45
I've noticed a common thing between all of the complaints and its that a whole load of them are "What if"s
"What if I go around saving after each snapped neck?"
"What if I decide to use a grenade?
"What if I miss a jump?"

Simple solution: THEN DON'T, you may have a problem with the possibility of a system being abused, but then again you don't aim to abuse it.

If you do aim to abuse it, its to further enjoy the game!

Thats right, thats why some games come without quick saving. They think that it will be abused. Well the solution is simply not to abuse, because it is not fun!! I dont even use the regen aug (and now in DX3 it is shoved in my ass, but anyway). The point is to have freedom to do things, and then the players could decide what is fun for them.

rokstrombo
17th Jan 2009, 18:55
I don't think the most significant issue is that certain features of the game can be abused. The biggest issue IMO is that the most logical and predictable way to progress in Deus Ex is by using those certain features in ways that may compromise the developer's intentions for how the game should be experienced. The player is encouraged to abuse these features due to the scarcity of ammunition and the intentional forgetfulness of the enemy AI.

Another reason why quick save is encouraged in Deus Ex is simply the length of the game. It is frustrating to pick the same locks, listen to the same conversations, and make the same changes to your inventory again just because the enemy happened to shoot you a couple of seconds later after you completed this sequence of events. It is reasonable for players to habitually save after these events if only to avoid later frustration. It is also reasonable for this habit to potentially extend to cover other game events such as killing the aforementioned enemy, or sneaking past a security camera. Therefore, I believe it is not unreasonable for game developers to develop a means of controlling this habit in order to create a more consistent experience for these players.

As I suggested in previous posts, I don't think it would be very difficult to significantly reduce this condition by introducing persistence in some more of the player's actions. This would be well within the scope of the game and would allow the game play to integrate with the plot in much more detail than in previous titles. With careful level design, the number of quick saves could be more easily predicted by the developers to allow them to create a more coherent and consistent experience for various styles of play.

sakurai
18th Jan 2009, 06:44
I don't think the most significant issue is that certain features of the game can be abused. The biggest issue IMO is that the most logical and predictable way to progress in Deus Ex is by using those certain features in ways that may compromise the developer's intentions for how the game should be experienced.

Well, basically my opinion in this thread is perhaps to inform the developers on this: The developer's intent on how the game should be experienced.

Why? Simple.

They put in stealth into the game, yet it is somewhat, half-done. The only stealth is creeping pass guards.
They put in melee weapons and skills, yet it is not as useful as firearms.

So what is the point in putting these two elements into the game when ultimately you will be using your guns 99% of the time?

Unless you're telling me melee weapons are simply for opening of crates. Then I'll rather you do without the crates AND melee.

NK007
18th Jan 2009, 15:30
First about flanking: Actual flanking is usually done mid-combat, otherwise shooting from the side is just blind-siding them. I'm not gonna give a number, but a huge percent of flanking is done as the enemy is fixed (suppressed) and a friendly proceeds to a better firing position. I guess you could flank on your own, if you, for instance, use some heavy MG on an enemy and then run up to a better firing position. That, or running through a solid piece of cover to a better position.

Now about the neck snapping: let me get a little realistic here. Do you realize how hard it is to actually silently snap someone's neck silently, even if he's unaware. A patrolling guard is most likely to call for his friends as soon as he encounters any threat, and who knows - if he's quick thinker, maybe even put the safety off and fire a few shots into the air. Even then, snapping a neck takes a while and the opposition usually fumbles around crazily, hitting you with his elbows and heels while struggling with your arms for safety.

I tell you what I do like, though: If you could have a nice mechanism for using melee WEAPONS, then that's nice. You could take a knife and stab someone several times and risk getting blood ALL OVER the place, or try crowbar to the head and having a 60-40 or something success chance of getting him, and it must be to the head. Some brutal stuff, more realistic, would be nicer than the tired, ridiculous Hollywood neck-snap.

sakurai
18th Jan 2009, 15:51
First about flanking: Actual flanking is usually done mid-combat, otherwise shooting from the side is just blind-siding them. I'm not gonna give a number, but a huge percent of flanking is done as the enemy is fixed (suppressed) and a friendly proceeds to a better firing position. I guess you could flank on your own, if you, for instance, use some heavy MG on an enemy and then run up to a better firing position. That, or running through a solid piece of cover to a better position.

Now about the neck snapping: let me get a little realistic here. Do you realize how hard it is to actually silently snap someone's neck silently, even if he's unaware. A patrolling guard is most likely to call for his friends as soon as he encounters any threat, and who knows - if he's quick thinker, maybe even put the safety off and fire a few shots into the air. Even then, snapping a neck takes a while and the opposition usually fumbles around crazily, hitting you with his elbows and heels while struggling with your arms for safety.

I tell you what I do like, though: If you could have a nice mechanism for using melee WEAPONS, then that's nice. You could take a knife and stab someone several times and risk getting blood ALL OVER the place, or try crowbar to the head and having a 60-40 or something success chance of getting him, and it must be to the head. Some brutal stuff, more realistic, would be nicer than the tired, ridiculous Hollywood neck-snap.

Neck-snapping was just an example. I prefer the Vampire Masquerade style. Stabbing a katana into the enemy's chest :D
The crowbar could act as the club from the Thief Series. Missed the clubbing ever since Thief died out. *ahem* EM *ahem*

Re: Flanking. Definitely. Flanking is only done when the enemy is being suppresed or pre-occupied in engaging their enemy (you/your squad) (this is the thing that provides your 'stealth' required to sneak to their side or rear). Most of the time in combat. Doubt you will be able to flank by yourself though, as without any firing, your enemy would become suspicious.
Otherwise, in real combat, you'ld most likely be lost in your own 'world' (you and the one shooting at you). That's also why its dangerous not to intersect fire, as this could result in friendly fire when doing fire and movement.

splyez
3rd May 2009, 14:59
like the sound of this :D i would love the have the whole "enviromental kill" thing in DE3. you know like pushing people of building, and all that. and the stealth system sounds awsome. <3 stealth

ilya1234
4th May 2009, 02:44
Firstly, there is a lack of critical kills. Sure sniper head shot is a standard way. But melee seems to be lacking in it. Eg. Neck-snapping (as stated by someone in the forum), throat-cutting with knife, sword-stabbing (Vampire the Masquerade style), or simply knocking someone out. Of course all these are stealth manuevers aka performable only from behind.

Deus Ex (the first one) does have critical kills. If you sneak up on someone from behind and attack them, you'll do more damage than if they notice you. Usually you can kill or knock out someone with one hit from the knife or baton. It's basically the same as in Thief.

In order to do a critical kill, you need to be crouched while approaching your enemy from behind, to avoid making noise, and have your weapon equipped (usually the baton or knife). If your enemy is standing still, you just need to stand up and then knife them in the head or the torso if using the baton (sometimes you'll need to run for a little bit before attacking with the baton in order to get it to work). If they're moving, you'll need to uncrouch while close and then run up and attack. If you did it right, they should die or go unconscious even though the knife and baton wouldn't normally do much damage. Knocking someone unconscious makes a lot less noise than death, especially if they never notice you or scream while you do it.

Invisible War took all of this out, however.

LatwPIAT
10th May 2009, 11:31
...you just need to stand up and then knife them in the head or the torso [...]you'll need to uncrouch while close and then run up and attack.
No, you can attack while croched on a moving enemy by stabbing them in the lower spine. Using a melee weapon on the head wasn't that effective from behind. The Stun Prod would be an instant knockout on the spine, but only spasm on the head on tougher enemies.

I'd imagine a system where silent kills are harder than noisy kills, and knockouts are harder than kills. A low level player might be able to stab unwitting NPCs in the kidneys, instantly incappacitating them and making them blead to death, at the cost of them screaming very loudly in pain, while a high-level player would stab them in the neck, making much less sound.

LEVEL 1 - Green
The player recieves bonus damage when attacking unwitting NPCs from behind with melee weapons. They may also stab NPCs in the kidneys, resulting in a instant but noisy kill. The player may grab NPCs and use them as human shields, and may then slit their throats (noisy, messy) or whack them repeatedly in the head to knock them unconcious or kill them. (noisy)

LEVEL 2 - Experienced
The player recieves bonus damage when attacking unwitting NPCs from behind with melee weapons. They may also stab NPCs in the kidneys, resulting in a instant but noisy kill. The player may grab NPCs and use them as human shields, and may slit their throats (noisy, messy) or put them in a chokehold to knock them unconcious or kill them. (Less noisy, faster)

LEVEL 3 - Hardened
The player recieves bonus damage when attacking unwitting NPCs from behind with melee weapons. They may also stab NPCs in the kidneys, resulting in a instant but noisy kill, or they may stab them in the neck, resulting in a silent instant kill. The player may grab NPCs and use them as human shields, and may then slit their throats (noisy, messy) or put them in a chokehold to knock them unconcious or kill them. (silent)

LEVEL 4 - Veteran
The player recieves bonus damage when attacking unwitting NPCs from behind with melee weapons. They may also stab NPCs in the kidneys, resulting in a instant but noisy kill, or they may stab them in the neck, resulting in a silent instant kill. The player may grab NPCs and use them as human shields, and may then slit their throats (silent) or put them in a chokehold to knock them unconcious or kill them. (silent) The player may use rags or other pieces of clothing to chocke an NPC silently unconcious or dead.

LEVEL 5 - CommandoThe player recieves bonus damage when attacking unwitting NPCs from behind with melee weapons. They may also stab NPCs in the kidneys, resulting in a instant but noisy kill, or they may stab them in the neck, resulting in a silent instant kill. The player may grab NPCs and use them as human shields, and may then slit their throats (silent) or put them in a chokehold to knock them unconcious or kill them. (Less noisy, faster) The player may use rags or other pieces of clothing to chocke an NPC silently unconcious or dead. The player can break the necks of soldiers wearing helmets, and can knock NPCs unconcious with a single blow.

Basically, at level 1 you can make instant kills, but they may alert enemies. At level 2, you begin to get the option of less noisy kills. At level 3, most kills are silent. At level 4, nearly all kills are silent, and the player may use other weapons than knives to disable people. At level 5, the player may kill or knock unconcious with their bare hands.