PDA

View Full Version : Bullet time and its effects on gaming



NK007
15th Jan 2009, 12:38
Not really, I just noticed most games involving any kind of violence (hell, maybe even racers and flight simulation, who knows what I've missed) seem to love this feature from The Matrix\Max Payne to allow the player to make the game real slow for a couple of seconds and shoot up baddies, I guess it kind of looks cool, in the form of a "sense" or a power or magic or a 1000 other ways. One game (Timeshift) is based entirely on this feature. But I've seen it too often and it's getting repetitive and redundant, and honestly, if I see it one more time I'm going on a clock killing spree.

So what do you think? am I right? am I an *******? Should this be an aug or something? I'm sort of concerned because game devs seem to embracing this for some reason.

Also, feel free to move this wherever, did not know where to put this.

spm1138
15th Jan 2009, 13:33
Hohum.

The thing is, bullet time tends to go with a certain kind of level design and indeed a certain kind of game design.

It also has implications for game difficulty balance.

Taking F.E.A.R. as an example you've got lots of set piece shootouts with squads of bad guys at a time. There's no stealth option.

Also notice how the bad guys are very, very hard to tackle without bullet time. This means that you almost have to use the feature (unless you really want to give your aiming a workout).

Comparing Deus Ex and Project Snowblind - two games with basically similar mods, but one having a bullet time mod - note how one of them is basically a linear shooter with occasional bits of non-linearity. In DX on the other hand there's usually a way to sneak past the set piece battles.

So it'd be whether it'd be OK for the feature to be optional or not and whether it'd be OK for it to give you a completely decisive advantage. I suppose it does in F.E.A.R. even if the shootouts are very hard without.

It needn't necessarily be an aug either. It could be a drug. Or an aug for administering drugs.

As a balance it could have a comedown. Because you've just burned through all your adrenaline / a bunch of synthetic adrenaline you get the shakes, move a bit slower and everything seem a little quick for a bit.

Maybe there could be alternate combat boosters and smart drugs for you to take. Hmmm.

Something to steady your hands? Something to make patterns in the puzzles jump out at you? Something to make movement jump out at you?

KaiTenSatsuma
15th Jan 2009, 17:20
Personally I think bullet-time has kind of ruined games since it really only gets thrown in for the whole two fisted dive of "ZOMG I HOPE THIS WORKS"

And evasion rolls, don't make me laugh, rolling around an open area isn't going to stop a spray of bullets from ripping you to shreds, cover dives are fair game as long as the person shooting doesn't adjust for movement :shrugs: I could ask a friend who actually owns an AK about how long someone has to get out of the way of a bullet from say...30-40 yards? I'll have to get back with that.

Its less insulting if bullet-time is applied for things like...aiming: immense concentration on lining up the shot properly.

K^2
15th Jan 2009, 17:41
how long someone has to get out of the way of a bullet from say...30-40 yards?
About 0.05 seconds. Good reaction time is about 0.15 seconds. Even if you manage to reduce reaction time, it would take roughly 20g of acceleration to move out of the way in that time. Human body can survive it over such short time, but it would take a rocket booster with over 3,000 pounds of thrust to give you that acceleration.

So basically, in order to dodge a bullet, you need a computer system to track the bullet and coordinate movement, as well as a rocket booster to move you out of the way. This might be a bit of a stretch even for Deus Ex.

Other than that, the only thing to do is move out of the way before the bullet is fired using the fact that the person pulling the trigger is limited by the same limitations in dexterity.

gamer0004
15th Jan 2009, 18:35
So basically, in order to dodge a bullet, you need a computer system to track the bullet and coordinate movement, as well as a rocket booster to move you out of the way. This might be a bit of a stretch even for Deus Ex 3.


Fixed :rasp:

KaiTenSatsuma
15th Jan 2009, 20:24
Fixed :rasp:
Not quite, where do you plan to hide the booster?
I have some ideas, not all of them are...comfortable.
Though I assume having 3,000 pounds of "thrust" is an admirable thing :D

and now before we degenerate to sex jokes...Bullet Time is probably not one of the things I'd want to see in DX, no matter how futuristic or well done, its just too...gimmicky

GmanPro
15th Jan 2009, 20:27
As cool as it was in Max Payne, no bullet time please. I don't want the fights to last any longer than a few seconds anyway.

Voltaire
16th Jan 2009, 00:13
The thing is, bullet time seems a good idea cuz it sounds epic. Who doesn't want to "do a Neo"? But in games, it never is epic. On FEAR, i kept finding myself slo-jogging around a corner, shooting some poor bugger in the face before he knows what has happened, then running around an empty room like the six million dollar man (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=85344), waiting for normality to ensue.

jordan_a
16th Jan 2009, 02:21
Bullet time. Wait, is it not that artificial feature that makes games easier? :D As long as I'm free not to use it that's fine.

dixieflatline
16th Jan 2009, 02:24
My 2 cents: an "adrenaline aug" that gives you bullet time for brief periods doesn't sound like a bad idea -- and its one of those augs that would be relatively easy to make for the dev team.

Malah
16th Jan 2009, 03:21
If the aug is optional and not something you're forced to use, sure. Let Rambo have his, just make sure those who prefer stealth also get their share of augmentations.

Did you know that actual "bullet time" exists. ;)

In extreme situations you can "slow time". In reality you just perceive more than usually. Much like those cool videos of exploding water balloons.
The presentation is a bit silly (turbo charge stimulant! :P ), but watch the vid. :)

Human Body : Pushing The Limits - Brain Power (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUsjkTz_-M4)

K^2
16th Jan 2009, 08:05
Term "Bullet time" implies reaction times sufficient to dodge bullets. That is not possible for human body to achieve. Neural system is not fast enough, and as I said, you need a rocket booster to make it work.

On the other hand, if we are talking about adrenaline rush, natural or artificial, and the time slows down by a reasonable fraction, it is another question all together. But even under conditions of extreme adrenaline rush, bullets are pretty much instantaneous hits.

NK007
16th Jan 2009, 08:15
The thing is, bullet time seems a good idea cuz it sounds epic. Who doesn't want to "do a Neo"? But in games, it never is epic. On FEAR, i kept finding myself slo-jogging around a corner, shooting some poor bugger in the face before he knows what has happened, then running around an empty room like the six million dollar man (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=85344), waiting for normality to ensue.

I don't want to be Neo. Deus Ex was cool in enough in that let you open go into Versalife, open with a GEP gun, continue liquidating security with an AR, letting you jump 15 feet into the air with augs and then proceeding to make the enemie's grenades explode in their hands (to my credit, never tried that aug). That is more than enough coolness stuffed into 2 minutes and in the context of the fantasy game world of Deus Ex. There's JC, and there's Adam (and Alex too, I guess *shrug*), and Neo belongs somewhere else.

And yeah, I hate walking around an empty room waiting for the effect to wear off.

GmanPro
16th Jan 2009, 08:29
Term "Bullet time" implies reaction times sufficient to dodge bullets. That is not possible for human body to achieve. Neural system is not fast enough, and as I said, you need a rocket booster to make it work.

On the other hand, if we are talking about adrenaline rush, natural or artificial, and the time slows down by a reasonable fraction, it is another question all together. But even under conditions of extreme adrenaline rush, bullets are pretty much instantaneous hits.

I can see it being an aug that slows down time enough for you to get your shot off before your enemy does. But yah, once they have fired their gun, its gonna move faster than you.

Ghostface
16th Jan 2009, 22:58
Term "Bullet time" implies reaction times sufficient to dodge bullets. That is not possible for human body to achieve. Neural system is not fast enough, and as I said, you need a rocket booster to make it work.

On the other hand, if we are talking about adrenaline rush, natural or artificial, and the time slows down by a reasonable fraction, it is another question all together. But even under conditions of extreme adrenaline rush, bullets are pretty much instantaneous hits.

What about neural augmentation? Nanowires or whatever?

I think human signals are from 1 to 120 m/s . Compared to an electron (nearly the speed of light) that’s slow. I wonder how much significant difference wiring up the reflexes would have, and if it could be used to induce "bullet-time". It would also be interesting to observe what happens when a person’s subconscious mind is also wired for enhanced speed. The subconscious mind is said to make the best decisions possible; so making that system take in and respond to more information in a given time would be an advantage.


Handgun rounds travel slower than rifle rounds. If you wanted to dodge bullets you're whole body would need to be augmented. Subsonic rounds travel at about 180 m/s, if one is given .20 seconds of reaction time and movement they can dodge the bullet from 40m away. This could only work if you have to move or twist your body a bit to get out of the way, rather than move your whole body. That would have to be done by mussel flash or by seeing the trigger being pressed. By the time you hear the bullet it has already started traveling through the air. The best bet against supersonic rounds is(if you have enhanced perception and vision) to move out of the way just before the trigger is pulled.

K^2
16th Jan 2009, 23:12
180m/s is extremely slow for a bullet. Most handguns will give you close to 300m/s, and most rife over 600m/s. Since a rifle was mentioned somewhere, my computations were based on 600m/s from 30m.

It is possible, at least in principal, to build an electronic system to track bullets and find a way to avoid them. It would be full auto, however, unless you want to rewire the whole brain.

But again, that's not the main problem. Main problem is moving fast enough to get out of the way. You cannot achieve required acceleration by pushing off the ground, so no augmentation of legs and the rest of the body would do the trick. You need rocket engines. It's the only way to make it work.

spm1138
17th Jan 2009, 01:43
Hohum.

What if it doesn't have to be quick enough to actually dodge bullets, just quick enough to operate well inside the OODA loop of the guy with the gun?

K^2
17th Jan 2009, 06:49
KGB has experimented with special training allowing a person to dodge fire from a handgun. There are fairly reliable accounts that it was successful. The attacker would start unarmed some distance away from defender armed with a hand gun. Attacker would approach while swaying from side to side. Such motion makes it difficult for defender to predict where target will be next and to time shots, while giving the attacker a chance to observe various cues to guess when defender will fire. Defender would typically manage to make a few shots during approach, but without hitting the target. Attacker would then disarm the defender.

But against an automatic weapon, you'd definitely need an electronic device. And I'm still not sure if required accelerations would be achievable. Far more reasonable against most arms, though.

Necros
17th Jan 2009, 07:39
My 2 cents: an "adrenaline aug" that gives you bullet time for brief periods doesn't sound like a bad idea -- and its one of those augs that would be relatively easy to make for the dev team.
Actually, that sounds like a good idea. :thumbsup: I love bullet time in some games but I have to agree, it's a bit overused and some games don't really need it. But, if it's an option, than there's no problem with it at all, IMHO.
Now, in a Deus Ex game it's not really needed either but it can easily be explained and if there are some limitations (and maybe make it expensive or hard to get) to keep it from being an overpowered aug, then I'm fine with it. Because you don't have to install it if you don't like it.
Though I'd like to have some cheat codes to be able to use it, just for the fun of it, to go crazy in DX's game world. :D

3nails4you
17th Jan 2009, 08:09
Your reaction time calculation depends on the person jumping out of the way WHEN the gun is fired. Most people see the gun being pulled out THEN try to dodge, the gun-haver having to pull the trigger, the hammer having to move forward, etc. So really, it depends less on rocket boosters if you take into account that people can realistically dodge if they see the gun first. Plus, with things like the Matrix, bullet time was not showing everything slow down, it was showing everything slower because it was so sped up. Super-human powers of speed aside, however, dodging a bullet IS possible IF you can know when it will be fired.

GmanPro
17th Jan 2009, 08:34
^^ Exactly. While an aug to make AJ move faster than bullets is a bit of a stretch, I think it is well within reason to have something to pump up your adrenaline etc so that you can see your foe taking aim and make the necessary maneuvers before the trigger ever gets squeezed.

sakurai
17th Jan 2009, 13:20
Honestly I think there are other uses for bullet time.

a) you could be under heavy fire in an open area (ambushed). bullet time to the nearest cover you can find.

b) stealth usage. you're trying to creep pass 2 guards on sentry and you have no cover. bullet time pass them. to them, they'll probably see a shadow zoom pass and go: huh? and maybe start praying that that wasn't a ghost. LOL. it'll be fun to hear a guard start chanting and perhaps the other shout at him for being an idiot or something along the line. Just for a little humour. :p

iWait
17th Jan 2009, 19:27
Honestly I think there are other uses for bullet time.

a) you could be under heavy fire in an open area (ambushed). bullet time to the nearest cover you can find.

b) stealth usage. you're trying to creep pass 2 guards on sentry and you have no cover. bullet time pass them. to them, they'll probably see a shadow zoom pass and go: huh? and maybe start praying that that wasn't a ghost. LOL. it'll be fun to hear a guard start chanting and perhaps the other shout at him for being an idiot or something along the line. Just for a little humour. :p

I hope if there's bullet time it doesn't work like this. Bullet time shouldn't speed you up, because, well that's just stupid. It should slow everything down, giving you more time to think and make decisions. So basically if there is a patrol coming your way, use bullet time to slow everything down until you decide what to do, maybe put a LAM on the wall next to you and run away.

If it works by slowing everything but you down, or by speeding you up, it wouldn't make any sense. I like the suggestion of an adrenaline aug, it's realistically possible, since it does the same thing your brain does if it's in trouble. Not to mention the fact that you'd be really overpowered.
1. Walk into room
2. Bullet time
3. Shoot everybody in the room in the head while they are still grabbing they're guns.
4. Leave room
5. Repeat.

Radius86
17th Jan 2009, 19:39
I hope if there's bullet time it doesn't work like this. Bullet time shouldn't speed you up, because, well that's just stupid. It should slow everything down, giving you more time to think and make decisions. So basically if there is a patrol coming your way, use bullet time to slow everything down until you decide what to do, maybe put a LAM on the wall next to you and run away.

If it works by slowing everything but you down, or by speeding you up, it wouldn't make any sense. I like the suggestion of an adrenaline aug, it's realistically possible, since it does the same thing your brain does if it's in trouble. Not to mention the fact that you'd be really overpowered.
1. Walk into room
2. Bullet time
3. Shoot everybody in the room in the head while they are still grabbing they're guns.
4. Leave room
5. Repeat.

If they're dead the first time, why repeat it? The last thing this game needs is a teabagging reputation like Halo 2. :rolleyes:

iWait
17th Jan 2009, 20:01
Note 4, leave room, implying you're going to the next room/hallway/killzone.

K^2
17th Jan 2009, 21:27
Your reaction time calculation depends on the person jumping out of the way WHEN the gun is fired.
Yes, because "bullet time" refers to time being slowed down to the point where you can see bullets flying at you, Matrix style. So you get to dodge the actual flying bullets. That's why I'm counting the way I'm counting.

Obviously one can dodge a shot. You don't need to be superhuman to do that. In fact, the best thing to do is move before the opponent decides to pull the trigger. Sudden movement will force the issue, and there is a reaction time delay of 0.15 seconds that gives you time to move out of the way before opponent knows that you really moved out of the way. So dodging the first shot is almost trivial with some training. At close quarters, that gives you enough time to disarm opponent. Many martial arts rely on this fact.

sakurai
18th Jan 2009, 06:37
KGB has experimented with special training allowing a person to dodge fire from a handgun. There are fairly reliable accounts that it was successful. The attacker would start unarmed some distance away from defender armed with a hand gun. Attacker would approach while swaying from side to side. Such motion makes it difficult for defender to predict where target will be next and to time shots, while giving the attacker a chance to observe various cues to guess when defender will fire. Defender would typically manage to make a few shots during approach, but without hitting the target. Attacker would then disarm the defender.

But against an automatic weapon, you'd definitely need an electronic device. And I'm still not sure if required accelerations would be achievable. Far more reasonable against most arms, though.

The KGB method mentioned isn't really special training. IMO its just dodging bullets by LUCK. Its just simple strafing. Like you mentioned, it would be useless against automatic weapons. It doesn't really require training. It requires luck. By strafing you simply confuse your opponent on where your next step would be. It happens in almost every fps especially mulitplayer ones. You would move while engaging a target an not stop and shoot. Well except CS where most people like to crouch and shoot.


I hope if there's bullet time it doesn't work like this. Bullet time shouldn't speed you up, because, well that's just stupid. It should slow everything down, giving you more time to think and make decisions. So basically if there is a patrol coming your way, use bullet time to slow everything down until you decide what to do, maybe put a LAM on the wall next to you and run away.

If it works by slowing everything but you down, or by speeding you up, it wouldn't make any sense. I like the suggestion of an adrenaline aug, it's realistically possible, since it does the same thing your brain does if it's in trouble. Not to mention the fact that you'd be really overpowered.

My opinion of bullet time is 'slowing' time down to the extent you can react to bullets. This translates to enhanced reflexes and enhanced speed hence the 'slowing down of time'. So basically I think you're just contradicting yourself. For everything to slow down except you, in reality, this simply means your speed is so fast that everything around you is slower, since time CANNOT slow down.

Also, from what I see of your examply, adrenaline aug does not work the same as reality. In reality, adrenaline rush simply increases heart rate and pushes you to your limit. Slight increase in reflex, speed, etc. All within human limits. It isn't as 'superhuman' as described by you. But ultimately, it still results in my 'bullet time'. Increased reflex, speed, etc.

iWait
18th Jan 2009, 07:45
bullet time pass them. to them, they'll probably see a shadow zoom pass
This is what you said.

To me, this implies that with bullet time, you'd be going so fast that they wouldn't be able to react to you're presence before you leave the area.
This, unless I have misunderstood, means that you would have to be going very, very fast compared to you're normal speed.


Bullet time shouldn't speed you up, because, well that's just stupid. It should slow everything down, giving you more time to think and make decisions.
This is what I said.

What I meant by this was that it should not speed you up, it should speed your thought process up, which means you have the same physical capabilities, you just think and process information faster, making time appear to be going at a slower rate to you.


So basically I think you're just contradicting yourself
This is what you said.

How?


since time CANNOT slow down.
This is what you said.

It can. It cannot. It does.


Also, from what I see of your examply, adrenaline aug does not work the same as reality. In reality, adrenaline rush simply increases heart rate and pushes you to your limit. Slight increase in reflex, speed, etc. All within human limits. It isn't as 'superhuman' as described by you. But ultimately, it still results in my 'bullet time'. Increased reflex, speed, etc.
This is what you said

I never described the adrenaline aug as superhuman. I just liked it because it is realistically possible. I know that it is all within human limits, and that's why I like it. The aug would be to artificially induce the effect on command, not to replicate it with a greater strength.
Furthermore, the adrenaline aug isn't the aug that I would want, it was just suggested in a previous post, which I liked. I don't actually know which chemicals control the perceptive slowing of time, but I know that adrenaline is a part of it.

It does not result in you're bullet time. From you're example, it makes you actually physically move and react faster, so fast that you can run by guards without them recognizing you. This requires a speed of what? 50 MPH? More?

This post was directed at Sakurai.

K^2
18th Jan 2009, 07:56
The KGB method mentioned isn't really special training. IMO its just dodging bullets by LUCK. Its just simple strafing. Like you mentioned, it would be useless against automatic weapons. It doesn't really require training. It requires luck. By strafing you simply confuse your opponent on where your next step would be.
Except, they do it consistently. There is more to it than just randomly moving from side to side. Not being in KGB, I don't know what it is. I'm guessing it has something to do with anticipating timing of the opponent. But if it was just luck, they'd be getting hit every once in a while. Seeing how they would demo it with live ammo, I highly doubt they count on luck alone.

spm1138
18th Jan 2009, 10:55
I guess they're either watching for cues from the shooter or it's some trick involving human reaction times.

I wonder how it'd fair against a trained CQB shooter using one of those point shooting methods?

LatwPIAT
18th Jan 2009, 14:51
1. Walk into room
2. Bullet time
3. Shoot everybody in the room in the head while they are still grabbing they're guns.
4. Leave room
5. Repeat.

My favourite version of the above:

Bullet Time
Open Door
Knife guy from behind
Back up
Close door
Lock door

K^2
18th Jan 2009, 14:57
Fine, but can we please not call it bullet time? The term clearly implies a time frame of a bullet, and in the time frame you are talking about, the bullet still flies from point A to point B pretty much instantaneously.

NK007
18th Jan 2009, 15:13
My favourite version of the above:

Bullet Time
Open Door
Knife guy from behind
Back up
Close door
Lock door


That's pretty hilarious. Knifing a room full of innocent civilians is even funnier. Setting them on fire while they're still having a conversation must be the funniest, though.

sakurai
18th Jan 2009, 15:29
Fine, but can we please not call it bullet time? The term clearly implies a time frame of a bullet, and in the time frame you are talking about, the bullet still flies from point A to point B pretty much instantaneously.

Agreed. Bullet time is merely stated as 'bullet time' due to its overuse of dodging bullets in movies and games.


To me, this implies that with bullet time, you'd be going so fast that they wouldn't be able to react to you're presence before you leave the area.
This, unless I have misunderstood, means that you would have to be going very, very fast compared to you're normal speed.

Ok. Seems like a small misunderstanding here. Seems like you have never done any form of military guard duty before.
a) you'll be very tired
b) you do not shoot at any anything that moves nor do you raise the alarm at anything. you do a proper check first. or AT MOST coms to hq that you saw something
c) therefore, there will not instantly run towards you and start shooting, allowing you to 'sneak' pass them.
d) thus running across a 2m gap at a fast speed would result in the guards going: huh?
especially if he were to only see you for half a second. of course this obviously can't be done in brought daylight.

notice i did mention the guard go: "huh? is that a ghost?"
he might just step out and take a look and check.


Bullet time shouldn't speed you up, because, well that's just stupid. It should slow everything down, giving you more time to think and make decisions.

Your sentence phrasing implies you meant bullet time slows things down and give you more time to think.

Solution:

Fine, but can we please not call it bullet time? The term clearly implies a time frame of a bullet, and in the time frame you are talking about, the bullet still flies from point A to point B pretty much instantaneously.

What you said would perhaps be really called adrenaline. Since you wouldn't be able to dodge bullets with a sped up thinking process. Though giving you only a mere split second advantage. Doubt it'll be useful in a fps as its usually quite fast paced. This would simply be another 'pause' aka esc button. Lol.


Except, they do it consistently. There is more to it than just randomly moving from side to side. Not being in KGB, I don't know what it is. I'm guessing it has something to do with anticipating timing of the opponent. But if it was just luck, they'd be getting hit every once in a while. Seeing how they would demo it with live ammo, I highly doubt they count on luck alone.

This is assuming the shooter shoots accordingly ie anticipating the strafe and aiming towards that direction. What if the shooter were to shoot at random. :p
Also, this is of the assumption that the shooter doesn't 'kite'. :p
Honestly, regardless of the amount of training you get, you're gonna need balls to do that against a real gun.
Still, I doubt it works, if not we'll probably have seen it in movies already. Unless there is already one that I haven't seen before. Though in the movies they just have 'evasion aura'. No need for strafing.

LatwPIAT
18th Jan 2009, 15:54
Fine, but can we please not call it bullet time? The term clearly implies a time frame of a bullet, and in the time frame you are talking about, the bullet still flies from point A to point B pretty much instantaneously.

The technical term is "Overcrank." "Slow-motion" is sometimes substituted.

qJohnnyp
18th Jan 2009, 17:07
I too am for a slow-motion augmentation, something along the lines of F.E.A.R. You couldn't dodge bullets there, you didn't see the bullets a'la matrix, just their traces. You didn't move faster, you just had time to analyse the situation and take aim. It was called 'reflex boost' there. Moving faster (without another aug in use), seeing the bullets fly and being able to dodge them is out of the question.

And how would the aug work?
As sakurai said, you can't slow time but you can boost your reflexes, most likely chemically. So I guess the aug would administer either a mede up drug or something more advanced, like Modafinil. Use of the name methamphetamine and dexedrine would get the game b& in most countries (I'd rant about the sense of that but it's been done a lot already).
My ideas that wouldn't work:
JC and Alex had partially electronic brains, I don't think AJ will, so I guess overclocking your brain's processors won't be a good explanation in DX3. Neither will be using nanomachines to increase the ion exchange rate and/or photosensibility of neural cells.

K^2
18th Jan 2009, 18:50
This is assuming the shooter shoots accordingly ie anticipating the strafe and aiming towards that direction. What if the shooter were to shoot at random.
Also, this is of the assumption that the shooter doesn't 'kite'.
These are kinds of things I'd expect as a defense option. Except, how long would it take you to think of doing that after you see a man who just dodged 3-4 shots? The effect is probably psychological more than anything. I've seen it in FPS games. I remember pulling off a very nice triple jump in QuakeII that took me out of the line of fire, and allowed me to drop on opponent from above. He basically stopped firing and just watched as I rained hyperblaster blasts on him. A bullet dodging marital arts expert would probably have similar effect.

Still, I doubt it works, if not we'll probably have seen it in movies already. Unless there is already one that I haven't seen before.
I used to live near a military city back in Russia. The stories I could (but couldn't, really) tell you about kinds of things you don't see in the movies.

One day, I was sitting in a kitchen, and suddenly with a loud boom all the windows facing the forest blew open. I looked outside, and there was a mushroom cloud rising over the forest a few kilometers away. Almost like a nuclear one, except it was shorter, wider, and almost pitch black. The lack of total destruction and radiation setting things on fire also suggested lack of nuclearness. Still biggest mushroom cloud I have ever seen with my own eyes, and very nice view of it from the 5th floor. Blast knocked out most of the glass facing that direction in windows that were locked shut. Ours weren't locked, so they merely opened. Turned out, someone tried to steal fuel from ground-to-air AA missiles. The kind that chases down high flying supersonic jets. There were 15 of them stored at that location. There is a pond there now.

City itself is home to research institutes. One of which focuses on combustion and explosion. They are responsible for most craters in places where civilians are allowed to go. (These places used to be fenced off a couple of decades prior.) We use one about 50 yards across for picnics. Very convenient, but nobody knows exactly what formed it.

And then there is an air force base not far either. They have all sorts of strange things flying about. We used to get more UFO sitings than Roswell. Except nobody makes a big fuss about it, because people mostly assume that it's military testing something, and after you've seen a military helicopter drop half a dozen soldiers on Central Street for no apparent reason other than exercise in urban warfare, you tend to just roll with it.

Radius86
18th Jan 2009, 20:12
^^
Geez mate, what kind of hell were you living in? :eek:

K^2
18th Jan 2009, 21:06
A science center located on Moscow's defense ring. Soviets took protecting the capitol city very seriously. There is a continuous ring of air defense bases in all directions about 50km from center. Any aircraft in or approaching Moscow can be shot down within minutes. Many of these bases are still unmarked on maps. And since the research center had to house Institute of Combustion and Explosion, they had to place it near an existing military polygon. Hence the chosen location. Other than that, nothing special about location. In fact, they had to drain a big swamp to build there. By coincidence, more likely than not, it is in the same direction from Moscow as the city where the Soviet Cosmonauts were being trained (Star City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_City,_Russia)), which also put a number of air force bases around.

Such location is far from unique. I've heard similar stories from people who grew up near naval bases and nuclear power plants. It's just life in Soviet/Post-Soviet Russia near anything that was considered strategically important.

Laokin
19th Jan 2009, 08:25
About 0.05 seconds. Good reaction time is about 0.15 seconds. Even if you manage to reduce reaction time, it would take roughly 20g of acceleration to move out of the way in that time. Human body can survive it over such short time, but it would take a rocket booster with over 3,000 pounds of thrust to give you that acceleration.

So basically, in order to dodge a bullet, you need a computer system to track the bullet and coordinate movement, as well as a rocket booster to move you out of the way. This might be a bit of a stretch even for Deus Ex.

Other than that, the only thing to do is move out of the way before the bullet is fired using the fact that the person pulling the trigger is limited by the same limitations in dexterity.

What an interesting topic to stumble upon. On a serious note though.... evade rolls aren't for "dodging" bullets as much as it is for moving unpredictably to throw off your aim. Look at paint ball. Do you really think you stand a better chance standing in the open or getting low and moving around? Evade rolls are = to cover diving... its the same principal except an evade roll lands you in a ready position. So in other words who cares about your 0.05 seconds (it's in fact faster than that since an AK-47 shoots over 3,000 feet per second) it's about not allowing the guy to physically train you with his sights. His reaction time is as fast as yours, if he isn't lined up on you, it doesn't matter how fast the bullet travels it will always result in a miss.

So do I think BT is over done? Sort of. It hasn't been done with class since Max Payne.

Fear sucked.
Dead to Rights 1 & 2 had potential... but once again can't escape the cheese and cheap feel.
The matrix games were horrid.
Time shift is just terrible. To think they completely remade that game (unfortunately I played both versions since the original leaked) Amazing they are both equally bad. Why did they waste time remaking it?

Strangle Hold could have been good. It had decent graphics....but overall the game was WAY too fast, WAY too zoomed in and WAAAAY to lame in level design/objectives. Also, the specials were so tacked on. What do you expect from Midway though... like really?

When is some one going to learn and make a game that FEELS professional. All the games above minus Max Payne had a very VERY amateur feel to it. Even Max Payne had its cheese. You could dive and shoot in slow motion but GOD FORBID you want to jump and shoot at the same time. Not only was this in MP1 but it also appeared in the sequel made by R*. Nobody questions this? Also, why was Max able to jump OVER people. His feet were higher than peoples head. Should have made the jumping more realistic and allowed him to vault objects. Would have made for a more professional feel/action oriented game. Vaulting a box -> dive -> 3 head shots in slow motion -> epic slide while shooting the last guy behind you. A lot more fun then float jumping taking 50 bullets in the process since you cant shoot only to land to begin the dive where you would belly flop onto concrete and get up and walk away????

Why not have him dive and land in a combat roll? Jesus.

Also, Bullet time shouldn't be a feature that is required. It should be a featured implemented for situational "on the fly" tactics. I.E. Not just running around clicking into BT diving and shooting people in a rinse and repeat style.

Should be more like... "Oh ****, GRENADE.... DIVE while I'm in the air I'll shoot some one in the face!."

Also, I don't like just being able to enter it at free will. Or it just being there to be there. There should be more rules structured around the system. I feel if it were like this than BT in MP wouldn't be a problem because the game would only slow down for like a max of 5 seconds every once in a while.

It's my personal opinion that game devs watch movies for inspiration. Copy and paste all the cool effects some how = more money in their eyes. The industry will never learn from it's mistakes.

On a side note.....
Ain't it crazy that Circuit City AND Best Buy are out of business?

iWait
19th Jan 2009, 17:40
Ain't it crazy that Circuit City AND Best Buy are out of business?

Are you being serious?

A sad, sad day when man is devoid of Best Buy and Circuit City.

InGroove2
19th Jan 2009, 17:56
Are you being serious?

A sad, sad day when man is devoid of Best Buy and Circuit City.

Circut City for sure.. but I haven't heard this about Best Buy... i heard they're trying to buyout a whole bunch of employees and open substantially fewer stores this year... but not closing... ha.. i think the Police Tour kept them going this year!

Blade_hunter
19th Jan 2009, 19:35
I'm not sur slow motion is perfectly suited for DX, but perhaps I got wrong ...

NK007
19th Jan 2009, 21:53
I'm not sur slow motion is perfectly suited for DX, but perhaps I got wrong ...

I think it's absolutely dismal for DX 3.

Laokin
20th Jan 2009, 08:37
Circut City for sure.. but I haven't heard this about Best Buy... i heard they're trying to buyout a whole bunch of employees and open substantially fewer stores this year... but not closing... ha.. i think the Police Tour kept them going this year!

Sorry my mistake, it's just our local best buys closing.... Circuit City is gone nation wide.

Necros
20th Jan 2009, 11:09
I think it's absolutely dismal for DX 3.
I think it's a valid idea for DX3, it comes down to implementation. If it's gonna be overpowered or just a gimmick, then no, thanks. But if they do it right, I'll welcome the addition. :)

Necros
20th Jan 2009, 13:08
I've been thinking a bit more about this. They could put in a restriction like this one: if you use this aug too often and/or too much your body would start to get affected negatively and it would be less effective and at some point it fails because your body can't tolerate it anymore. Of course there should be an option to fix yourself somewhere but for a lot of money, so you'd have to use it only if it's necessary.
And some of the "bosses" could have this too, along with a few random guards (highly trained, perhaps in command or richer guys). And if he/she slows you down, you could use your own aug to even out the field while everything and everybody else would be still affected.

The more I think about it, the more I'd like to see it in the game. :D But I understand if some of you are against it or the devs won't put it in, it's not really a must-have, just a would-be-nice gameplay element. :)

Blade_hunter
20th Jan 2009, 18:19
I don't like this too but when it exists I use them rarely even in max payne I don't used Slowmo, but it seems to be a trend of gaming :( ....

A guy suggested a slow motion as an augmentation something that increase speed and slow the time.

At this level it can be chosen but I keep the fact I didn't like to see slow motion in most games, but as an augmentation it can allow some players to play with this option if they want ...

An other thing is what is the level of the slow down ?

I think if we want to make a combat in DX we should to be able to make combats and good in action / FPS games, because if that's not the case, we can use the infiltration instead of a slow motion IMO.

GmanPro
20th Jan 2009, 21:08
Another thing you could do is just have a good ol' fashioned speed aug. Keeps the action flowing, and pretty much does the same thing.

Necros
21st Jan 2009, 16:39
Another thing you could do is just have a good ol' fashioned speed aug. Keeps the action flowing, and pretty much does the same thing.
It's not the same. :)

GmanPro
21st Jan 2009, 17:23
It helps you to dodge gun fire. So yeah, its basically the same.

Blade_hunter
21st Jan 2009, 19:50
Not really the speed aug is something as far as I know a thing that nobody is against this.

Slow motion even if you gain virtually the speed, slow motion is easier to control than the speed aug.
DX was a bit slow, if we compare DX with Unreal of course, most realistic / semi realistic games are slow, rare are those games category that been fast.

Slow motion slows the game and keep the player at the same speed and virtually we go faster
We go only faster than the game world. but not fast.
A the bullet time point we can go so slow ....Slow at the point we can avoid bullets and see them flying through the room and at this speed we can avoid them with ease and even avoid the AI :(

In Deus EX the speed aug can helps us to avoid slow projectiles but not the bullets, because they were hitscan, the enemy aim is only unable to acquire us with the same accuracy

GmanPro
21st Jan 2009, 21:15
^^ This is all true...

Slow motion can be cool at times but from what I've read in this thread most people are not terribly excited about the prospect of a bullet time aug.

At the same time, I think it would be sagacious of EM to make both the bullet-time and the speed aug. And then limit the player to only one of these. Some players obviously prefer one over the other, and in this way they have a choice. Although, in DX1 the alternative to the speed aug was the run silently aug, which I am also in favor of. If I had to choose 1 out of those 3 I think I'd stick with the run silently aug.

Blade_hunter
21st Jan 2009, 21:45
I will try a poll about this because it seems to clarify how much people wants this.