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Ghostface
11th Jan 2009, 20:10
I havent played F.E.A.R yet but looking at this scene the game seems so intense. I'd love to fight a mech in DX3.

Check it out: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=5eoUN2f4mSY

Lilith
11th Jan 2009, 20:24
No.

I do not want forced combat except for rare cases (Simons imo)

Behindyounow
11th Jan 2009, 20:39
It definitley sounded iffy to me at first, but after watching that video, i have to agree with you.

And to the whole 'Forced fight' thing, why does it have to be a forced fight? Why not just a chase? You could kill it, find its control terminal and shut it down (Or turn it against enemies for that matter) or just peg it so far that chasing you would be beyond its programming (I.e it gives up)

Lilith
11th Jan 2009, 20:58
It definitley sounded iffy to me at first, but after watching that video, i have to agree with you.

And to the whole 'Forced fight' thing, why does it have to be a forced fight? Why not just a chase? You could kill it, find its control terminal and shut it down (Or turn it against enemies for that matter) or just peg it so far that chasing you would be beyond its programming (I.e it gives up)

I see the logic, just I guess I want a feel like you have in Deus Ex.

There is a sense of badass, but you don't feel godly.

I think, if you have something like this. It needs to be a boss encounter.
And if Eidos know what they're doing they're going to have only a select few.

Thing is Mech battles are really a way for a design to be shown off, or a game play element. Deus Ex doesn't do this cause it allows one to choice how you do basically anything. You need utterly NO combat skills in Deus Ex 1 really. Trained with a pistol and the ammo you pick up will get you past Kerkans/Greasels and if you notice and don't waste the electrical tracks, the only -must- fight isn't a fight at all.

I think we all loved Deus Ex because you were in control of what game play was experienced, with some exceptions being a bit of platformer element.

If you HAVE to have a liner pre-set sequence of events, its not a Deus Ex thing really. Having what you suggest is the trick games that are not that open ended do to give the appearance of being so. The way you view your version of Jensen or JC is effected by the situations you find yourself in. Scripted combat events like these, chasing, that kind of stuff.

In here the justification for running is internal, the player thinks 'ok can't win here I'll run'.

So you start on the back foot for character development (cause as before mentioned with being a boss fight as pretty much the only way.) meaning there would have to be some form of mention of what happened. So, back foot and on the fly.

I donno, just doesn't ring as something that could feel like a Deus Ex encounter.

There are Three or Four scripted events with only one requiring you to fight in Deus Ex. So if they're being loyal to what we loved, then what is scripted needs to be a small number, too many and it becomes too much a content -> boss. content -> boss.

DX had levels broken up by its story, without always having a boss fight. Was better that way I think.

ZylonBane
11th Jan 2009, 22:18
I do not want forced combat except for rare cases (Simons imo)
You're never forced to fight Simons.

Ghostface
11th Jan 2009, 22:34
You can just have a main character be inside the mech

Blade_hunter
11th Jan 2009, 22:42
Yes you can run out of the base without killing him and it comes again at area 51 to kick your ass ;)

I think he wants perhaps a more intense fight against mechs, not force you to fight it.

Deus ex is one of the rare games you can play the game and avoid to kill some guys even the bosses. you can avoid killing anna navarre, gunther hermann, and simmons. And when I say no killing it's the fact the don't die in any manner

Lilith
11th Jan 2009, 22:46
I think to address the issue.

You want better fight mechanics with Mechs.

And I'm, opposed to having a scripted event combat thing like in the video you posted. Because it forces the player down a very narrow gap.

Basically unless there is a REALLY good reason, you should be able to not engage at all.

And I've seen the focus of Deus Ex more so in the person and augmentation rather then on robots, and using technology as a vessel but rather as ones self as a vessel for technology, in MJ-12 cases for power/enlightenment.

I just think its too damn cliched =/

qJohnnyp
11th Jan 2009, 22:50
You can just have a main character be inside the mech
^^ HACK the mech, you mean. Mecha in DX are AI controlled, not powered exoskeletons like the R.E.V.
Though Eidos might want to add power armor like this in DX3.
But fighting it should always be one of the options, as others said.

Ghostface
11th Jan 2009, 22:52
Piloting a mech would be fun too:)

You'll be able to do it in Project Orgin(upcoming sequel to F.E.A.R)

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=HIKnf0SMeOs


Though in deus ex it would probably be also equipped with non-lethal weapons as well as lethal

Lilith
11th Jan 2009, 22:54
Piloting a mech would be fun too:)

You'll be able to do it in Project Orgin(upcoming sequel to F.E.A.R)

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=HIKnf0SMeOs


Though in deus ex it would probably be also equipped with non-lethal weapons as well as lethal

Please stop.

This is Deus Ex, not Project Origin/F.E.A.R

qJohnnyp
11th Jan 2009, 23:08
Please stop.

This is Deus Ex, not Project Origin/F.E.A.R

Still, ideas from other franchises may be borrowed.

But not this one ;)
I kinda hate it in FEAR, not to mention Deus Ex.
Powered exoskeletons for your opponents- sure, MJXII and the Templars had PA. But not for the player to use.
(well, unless you hack it, but that requires augs, bioelectrical energy and is limited in time- not a whole portion of the game concentrating on cheerful slaughter of everything that moves -_-)

Larington
12th Jan 2009, 00:27
I've seen major boss monsters handled better in Half-Life 1 modifications frankly. Lets start on its introduction, this is supposed to be a fear game right? Aka, crap your pants scary? Well for starters thats a really slow introduction of the mech, it appears massively in the distance, and kills 3 troopers which seem a bit pathetic anyway.
Then the mech chases you around but seems completely incapable of responding to duck and diving in and out of doorframes.
Nevermind the fact that these people are storing rocket launchers in a kitchen - Showing a picture of a wookie in a court room makes more sense.

Working with the advantage of hindsight obviously, but here are some (I believe) more satisfying ways of handling the mech:
Introduction part A, player is walking along parallel to a fight between the mech and something more substantial, such as troop VTOL transport with some sort of directional mini-chaingun, see that get blasted out of the air and come crashing down into a courtyard as the troopers tumble out of the side. The player can shoot out of the window if he likes, but at this point he doesn't have a suitable rocket launcher and the bullets are shown to be ricocheting off the armour with all the appropriate whizz, ping, whop noises like out of an old western.
Introduction B, after its all quietened down and the player is walking down a corridor the mech punches through the wall right next to the player to give them a real scare (As in, its been standing by the wall waiting for you).
After getting chased about a bit, the player should eventually stumble on the weapons carried by the guys who tumbled out of the chopper, including some suitably heavy rocket launching weapon (Which couldn't be fired out the side of the flying chopper due to turbulence).

It gives the intro more weight, means the player getting access to rocket weapons makes sense and because the player has to go into a courtyard to retrieve the weapons it forces him/her to get exposed to the threat the mech presents. Worst case scenario, the mech should also come with a grenade launcher to deal with any pesky door frame hoppers.


Of course, all this ignores the fact I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the gameplay of FEAR sneaking into Deus Ex 3, not every game has to be uber-fast-reflexes-badass, nor should they.

rokstrombo
12th Jan 2009, 12:00
I felt the combat in Deus Ex was generally on a smaller scale than in this particular F.E.A.R. battle. A large robot such as the one in this video would probably destroy most of the building it was protecting if employed for that purpose. It doesn't make sense to deploy a tank-like unit to fight a single man in close quarters, let alone inside an important facility. Unless of course, your enemy was prepared to sacrifice that facility (and everyone in it) in order to take care of the player!

I think there are some other capabilities that could be given to your enemies to create intense battles which could maintain the smaller-scale combat featured in the earlier games. I remember seeing a TV show similar to COPS where the police had a thermographic camera aboard a chopper, while chasing a guy through a wooded area at night. Despite the fact that nobody on the ground could see anything in the low light and heavy shrub, the police chopper was able to track the guy at all times (stop me if I am sounding too much like John Bunnell :P)! Personally the concept of being observed or tracked by something unknown creeps me out, and I think this would create an interesting dynamic in a game like Deus Ex (and it did, though this capability was not typically used by your enemies).

Another fairly basic capability that could lead to intense battles is simply NPCs that can move considerably faster than the player. In a game that will hopefully explore transhumanism, this could be a good way to establish that the player is not easily the most powerful entity in the game world. This has been used in other shooters before, and in a Deus Ex game could help compensate for the very tight control that the player holds over pacing in the game.

K^2
12th Jan 2009, 12:35
I havent played F.E.A.R yet but looking at this scene the game seems so intense. I'd love to fight a mech in DX3.

Check it out: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=5eoUN2f4mSY
The fight-something-big-and-mean sequences are pretty common in FPS. The earliest one I can recall is the final boss battle in Quake II. Though, I'm sure it wasn't the first one. HL2 has done it pretty well with ant lions. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that is where FEAR got inspiration. Even DX had similar moments, though, as mentioned, you could escape them.

One thing that takes this scene a long way is how they dealt with destruction of the walls. It is clearly set to happen in predetermined places, but AI works with the system very nicely, to give it a spontaneous feel. Well done.

I have a feeling that EM already plans something to this effect. They mentioned boss battles, and I think this is what they had in mind. I don't know if they'll have a mech specifically, but something to this effect for sure. I just hope they don't over do it. One or two such encounters can add flavor to the game. But overdoing it will make it feel stale rather fast.

spm1138
12th Jan 2009, 13:08
F.E.A.R. is a very particular type of gameplay though. It's almost entirely claustrophobic CQB and big action movie setpieces.

DX didn't do that especially often.

Spiffmeister
12th Jan 2009, 18:07
TBH that part of F.E.A.R was just annoying. Wasn't intense or scary, just stand back and shoot a dog looking robot. Seemed kind of pointless to, didn't really fit in with anything (or maybe I just wasn't paying attention to the storyline at that stage :p ). Combat shouldn't be a requirement though IMO, if I want to sneak around something, I should be able to, that's always been part of Deus Exs charm for me.

Ghostface
12th Jan 2009, 18:37
You can always run.

A mech attack in the building makes sense if the attacker has no affiliation to the building and doesnt mind destroying it to kill you.

A big mech fight like that should only happen once or twice, or it could get old. I'd also like to see the use of patrol helicopters in certain situation. Illuminati with all their money has got to have a helicopter or two.

Also, a mech that big should have a machine gun that can shoot through thin walls. Making hiding difficult.

KaiTenSatsuma
12th Jan 2009, 18:43
Could we just do a mech rampage for the less...morally inclined?
Like in Chronicles of Riddik: Escape from Butcher Bay, that had me laughing pretty hard...

cjc813
12th Jan 2009, 19:27
I havent played F.E.A.R yet but looking at this scene the game seems so intense. I'd love to fight a mech in DX3.

Check it out: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=5eoUN2f4mSY
First of all... Perseus Mandate (which is what you're seeing, not the orginal FEAR) was garbage. It's a bastardised expansion pack riding on the name of an epic game. It was made by a different design team than the orginal, and was lacking in quality.

Secondly, I have to agree with Lillith. Forced combat scenes should be few and far between, that's what made the first DX so profound. You could be a pacificst or Rambo. How do you want to play? Sneakin' or shootin'?

And to the idea of a "chase" sequence instead of a kill... you misunderstand the definition of combat. If it's trying to kill you, that's pretty stinkin' combatant.

Where as if you overall avoid it, that's satisfying to stealth players. Make the mech a scripted event that chases you no matter what and you piss off a sub-group of the DX fanbase (stealthers). Trust me.

And, if such a thing were to be implemented (and avoidable) then it would be a waste of a ton of work to make an action packed scene that some might not experience.

DX1 wasn't that action packed... it could use a little bit more cowbell (per se) but we should never forget to ask, "Is this too much cowbell?"

Gotta keep a level head and a balance. That kinda thing is what made the first legendary.


EDIT ONE:

Yes you can run out of the base without killing him and it comes again at area 51 to kick your ass ;)

I think he wants perhaps a more intense fight against mechs, not force you to fight it.

Deus ex is one of the rare games you can play the game and avoid to kill some guys even the bosses. you can avoid killing anna navarre, gunther hermann, and simmons. And when I say no killing it's the fact the don't die in any manner
(DX1 Spoilers Below. If you haven't played the first... what is WRONG with you?)


You can't unlock the door to UNATCO HQ after leaving the MJ12 facility if Navarre is still alive.

Either kill her on the plane, shoot here at the door, or use her killphrase.

She's the only one who HAS to die. (I'm fairly certain...)


EDIT TWO:

The fight-something-big-and-mean sequences are pretty common in FPS. The earliest one I can recall is the final boss battle in Quake II.

Earliest *attempt* at that, to my knowlege, is in Doom 2.

It's at the end of the game and you have to shoot rockets into a huge demons brain.

The demon was the size of a wall because... technically, it was a wall with a hole in it. They couln't make a huge sprite, so they just textured level geometry (read: a wall) to look like a demon and put a hitbox inside.

Was an ugly hack, but, IMO that still counts as "fight-something-big-and-mean."

And that was one of the first FPS games... ever.

K^2
12th Jan 2009, 19:43
I was thinking more about something big, mean, and moving about the level. That's why QII end boss popped into my head almost immediately.

Fun fact, if you rip the end boss md2 file and use it as player model, the hit box ends up precisely between the legs. Most people playing Death Match try to shoot the body, and do no damage. Then they simply start running away.

cjc813
12th Jan 2009, 19:47
I was thinking more about something big, mean, and moving about the level. That's why QII end boss popped into my head almost immediately.

Fun fact, if you rip the end boss md2 file and use it as player model, the hit box ends up precisely between the legs. Most people playing Death Match try to shoot the body, and do no damage. Then they simply start running away.
Oh.

Well, in that case... :)

Larington
13th Jan 2009, 10:29
Heck, even Wolfenstein 3D had boss encounters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein_3D

This amused me no end though: "Each episode has a different boss who has to be killed in the final mission in order to complete the episode. Unlike normal enemies, boss enemies are drawn from one angle instead of eight, so the player can't sneak up on them or take them by surprise; when first encountered they are always facing the player."

ZylonBane
13th Jan 2009, 18:57
Earliest *attempt* at that, to my knowlege, is in Doom 2.
Uhhh.... you've forgotten about the Cyberdemon final boss from the original Doom?

http://www.doomwadstation.com/bestiary/cyberdemon.gif

Spiffmeister
14th Jan 2009, 04:04
Fun fact, if you rip the end boss md2 file and use it as player model, the hit box ends up precisely between the legs. Most people playing Death Match try to shoot the body, and do no damage. Then they simply start running away.

Hax0r

What about all those 2D top down arcade space flight shooty games :D . There's always a boss in them and they're hella old.

Point is though, Forced combat =/= DX

Spiffmeister
14th Jan 2009, 04:05
Fun fact, if you rip the end boss md2 file and use it as player model, the hit box ends up precisely between the legs. Most people playing Death Match try to shoot the body, and do no damage. Then they simply start running away.

Hax0r

What about all those 2D top down arcade space flight shooty games :D . There's always a boss in them and they're hella old.

Point is though, forced combat =/= DX

GmanPro
14th Jan 2009, 04:08
^^ Indeed. More like boss 'levels' methinks. A mission that is particularly tough and exciting would work so much better.


Point is though, forced combat =/= DX

use != :thumb:

Necros
17th Jan 2009, 02:12
I'm sure it will be great in FEAR, I love that series too but it shouldn't be in a Deus Ex game, it wouldn't feel right. :)

Blade_hunter
22nd Jan 2009, 03:37
Hum when I proposed vehicles as an option and unarmed vehicles I got a great opposition against the idea even If I found dozens of feasible balancing tweaks.
Got A mech I think it's right, but be forced to use the mech or have a mech sequence, hum this isn't DX though.

I think if we got mechs and even mech patrols, using a mech can be a solution but we need to be a good pilot, we can use an anti armor / electronics weapon and use the level to avoid the shots and be covered, we can find an other passage to avoid the fight against the bot.

An other thing is the mech is unarmed, we can use it as a shield and find a good firing point
I say shield if the fire power of the enemy forces allow this and our abilities to pilot the mech is very important even if the mech is slow.

AaronJ
22nd Jan 2009, 04:35
What's all this talk about forced combat? Is everyone aware of the "boss fights"?

Also, another reference to a mainstream blandfest...:mad2:

Necros
22nd Jan 2009, 09:58
Got A mech I think it's right, but be forced to use the mech or have a mech sequence, hum this isn't DX though.

I think if we got mechs and even mech patrols, using a mech can be a solution but we need to be a good pilot, we can use an anti armor / electronics weapon and use the level to avoid the shots and be covered, we can find an other passage to avoid the fight against the bot.

An other thing is the mech is unarmed, we can use it as a shield and find a good firing point
I say shield if the fire power of the enemy forces allow this and our abilities to pilot the mech is very important even if the mech is slow.
Now, that doesn't sound too bad. I could live with that. :) But I don't know if there could be any mechs like those in the late 2020s. :scratch:

What's all this talk about forced combat? Is everyone aware of the "boss fights"?

Also, another reference to a mainstream blandfest...:mad2:
:mad2: And are you aware of what René said about these "boss fights"? :rolleyes: But if you feel better, go ahead and cry some more...