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iWait
10th Jan 2009, 08:53
In IW the Illuminati used the Order to gain power and control over people. IW also had the Templars, who were also a sort of religious group.
So what sort of religious groups do you want to see in DX3, and what role should they play? Do you think the character should be able to join the religion? If so should you be able to advance your position in the organization in return for optional missions/quests?

NK007
10th Jan 2009, 15:49
Yes, I want to see real religions also, and they should be sitting in the background. For instance I suggested the temple mount should be dug up and a conspiracy found, but there should be more political groups than religious ones involved, and you should be able to join a religion that is not real (and obviously advance through the ranks until you attain "Pope of the Free Cheese Eating Church of Cthulhu").

spm1138
10th Jan 2009, 17:23
Hah. In this day and age I bet they won't touch real religion with a ten foot bargepole for fear of lawsuit or fatwah.

Spiffmeister
10th Jan 2009, 17:50
Have to agree with spm1138, religion can be a touchy subject, but the way IW had it was good. Generalising religion in the Order but separating them from the extremists represented by the Templar.

When you look at the two groups they are startlingly close to the reality :D .

Bloodwolf806
10th Jan 2009, 18:15
There are subtle religious tones and debates all over Deus Ex.

iWait
10th Jan 2009, 20:23
I love it how IW separated the Order and the Templars from the political groups, and yet tied them together so closely. Reminds me of how there is a separation of church and state in America, but when somebody points out that the motto on the U.S. dollar is "In God We Trust", the Christians start saying "Oh noes your oppressing our faith", and yet when a discussion on the morality of artificial stem cell production and research comes about, 98% of Christians say that it's wrong without saying how or why.

Okay, we have an African American president now, we could of had a Negro president in office for a while now. What we have not had, is an Atheist president. There have been studies showing that Christians (Remember that the majority of people in America are Christian) prefer Christians in office, though if a Christian could not be in office they would prefer
1.a Jew
2.a Mormon (even though Mormons are Christian, don't really get that) then
3. an Agnostic
4. a Muslim
5. an Atheist
What I would like to see is an Atheist president, though I doubt that won't be happening for atleast 20 years,

SemiAnonymous
10th Jan 2009, 20:37
Anyone remember the advertisment Data cube in Pauls Apartment? I don't remember it exactly, but it was something about uploading your immortal soul into a doomsday locker, because technology will bring about judgment day. I want to see that idea expanded a bit, people who are afraid of the future technology will bring, and thus, hypocritically use technology to "save" themselves.

iWait
10th Jan 2009, 20:41
Anyone remember the advertisment Data cube in Pauls Apartment? I don't remember it exactly, but it was something about uploading your immortal soul into a doomsday locker, because technology will bring about judgment day. I want to see that idea expanded a bit, people who are afraid of the future technology will bring, and thus, hypocritically use technology to "save" themselves.

I went to a Catholic High School, and I remember one of my religion teachers said that if the technology comes about to steal your soul, you need to try and send it to Jesus by putting it in a Bible and then burning the Bible.
Needless to say, she was bat****.
So was that school.

Radius86
10th Jan 2009, 20:49
I went to a Catholic High School, and I remember one of my religion teachers said that if the technology comes about to steal your soul, you need to try and send it to Jesus by putting it in a Bible and then burning the Bible.
Needless to say, she was bat****.
So was that school.

Certainly sounds like it. :D

I dont remember this Ad datacube though. All I remember is an online video store order for the movie 'Blue Harvest' which was a nice nod towards Star Wars IMO :thumb:

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th Jan 2009, 00:16
Good thread, I often ask myself if there is a future for religion... but I guess it's a 'human' thing and it will always exist; though perhaps it won't be followed so passionately in centuries ahead? Who knows. :scratch:
Personally, I have more interest in the spiritual make-up of a person, rather than the religion they follow.

But, back to the future of religion. Just consider a typical Sunday here in the UK and other countries. Not so long ago, the majority of people went to church religiously (excuse the pun :D ) but today it is the local car-boot sale and open-air market that attracts the crowds.
Much has changed over a relatively short period and I can see the trend continuing. I certainly think that new unorthodox religious/spiritual societies will continue to grow or be created.


Anyway, I found this website for further reading. It explores the future of all religions:
http://www.wnrf.org/cms/index.shtml

Take a browse through their FAQs in particular:
http://www.wnrf.org/cms/faq.shtml#757406

3nails4you
11th Jan 2009, 00:45
I don't know how they will incorporate religion in DX3, but I bet if they do it will have a lot to do with the 'religion gene' that doctors have supposedly found.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th Jan 2009, 01:54
I don't know how they will incorporate religion in DX3, but I bet if they do it will have a lot to do with the 'religion gene' that doctors have supposedly found.

Really? Can you link to some further info? Sounds interesting. :)

**

This is a good topic so I've added this to "important discussions" list thread:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=75249

iWait
11th Jan 2009, 03:18
Thanks for the links, and for adding it to the important discussions, MyImmortal.

Recently, religion has seemed to be practiced with the same amount of passion, but with less effort. For example, when I said somethiing to one of my teachers a couple years ago, she was just as angry with me as she would have been 700 years ago, but he didn't behead me. Just look at all the practices abandoned by Christians, Jews, and Muslims throughout the centuries (and I'm not talking about the obviously impractical and immoral ones).
Also thanks for being alright with this thread, I know some people are really touchy about religion in any type of discussion.


I don't know how they will incorporate religion in DX3, but I bet if they do it will have a lot to do with the 'religion gene' that doctors have supposedly found.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7147
Is this what you are talking about?
If it is do you have any more information?

SemiAnonymous
11th Jan 2009, 06:50
I remember reading about that at one point, its a gene that somehow affects how you are affected by religion. I don't know the details, I'll read up on it, though.

Radius86, check in Pauls apartment when HC is under martial law, I think thats when it shows up.

Sabretooth1
11th Jan 2009, 15:34
Nah, I don't think there will be (or should be) any religion in Deus Ex 3. The original didn't have any religion, probably implying that religion itself will go on a slow decay and be virtually forgotten in everyday life by 2052.

Then again, perhaps the Church can be depicted as a Templar-esque faction, opposed to biomodification. I don't think it should be a joinable faction, though.

FrankGuy
11th Jan 2009, 16:05
Thanks for the links, and for adding it to the important discussions, MyImmortal.
. . .
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7147
Is this what you are talking about?
If it is do you have any more information?

From Maggie McKee's article:
"About a dozen studies have shown that religious people tend to share other personality traits, although it is not clear whether these arise from genetic or environmental factors. These include the ability to get along well with others and being conscientious, working hard, being punctual, and controlling one's impulses."

There is a study with chimps which, I think, points to the human "religious" proclivity as being a genetic mental component that allows us to objectify (as a pure watcher-decider of) our own mental events.

The study went something as follows.
Chimps were taught to recognize number symbols and to successfully apply this knowledge to the question "Would you like 5 m&ms or 3 m&ms?" responding easily with the higher number without difficulty consistently either by symbol or by being presented directly with the actual little piles of candy. When, however, the problem became "Would you like the 5 m&ms or 3 m&ms given to this other chimp here (with the chooser always getting the remaining numbers of candy) they were able to get the correct answer (correct as in I-get-the-most) *only* when choosing from symbols but *never* when presented with the actual candy from which to make the choice. It seems that the mental component of desire to consume the candy was so strong in the presence of the actual candy that it overwhelmed the mental component of objective decision making and the chooser was unable to point to the smaller pile of candy to be given away to the other chimp so that the chooser could take the remaining larger pile.

The researchers noted that the chimp always looked "disappointed" after the incorrect choice and concluded thereby that it knew that it had made the error but could never learn even after many trials to be "objective" in the presence of the candy.the way it could *always* be using just the number symbols with the actual candy not in view.

Now I want to make the case here that *every* human interaction, no matter how trivial, has this "religious" component to it for the decider in the form of "what is the outcome for the current set of thoughts-ideas-perceptions (if acted upon) for me or them and what choice of action is the "correct" one?" Furthermore I will suggest that the most "religious" humans are the ones that have the ability to objectify their own impulses and thoughts with the greatest facility. (Consider the line "I see the truth of it" in Dune of young Paul when confronted with the pain box test)

Everyone of us are constantly reaffirming an allegiance to some "religious" sect whether we follow a formal (written) religious dogma or not. Let me give a mundane example. For the past ten years I have done a difficult and somewhat dangerous job that requires close co-operation (almost as in a family) with my fellow workers. I, along with most of my fellow workers, come to work on time every day even when we do not want to do so because to stay home or show up late adds much difficulty to our fellow workers jobs that we don't want to see happen even though we don't earn anything "extra" out of showing up when we would rather not. There are a few, however, that constantly show up late and take every sick day that accrues to them because they *can.* It's perfectly "legal" and other than earning the disgust of some of us there are no negative consequences to these choices. These are two "religious" sects and the decision to belong is a "religious" choice.

This is the kind of "religion" that I saw portrayed so well in Deus Ex and it is what I want to see again in Deus Ex 3.

Lilith
11th Jan 2009, 18:44
I think, and this is just a personal view.

So if this wasn't the case for you, then say so loudly :)

Deus Ex was subtle about its religion element for its time, it did beat you over the head a bit, but there was a lot to read into if you wanted to.

Now you could be super special anal about and go like this.

Joseph, Paul, Jacob, JC. Now are names you hear very early into the game and are some of the more important characters. They are biblical names minus JC, which there is a lot of theory on being for Jesus Christ.

What it does which I think is the non-political suicidal way with religion is go back. Current religion, to be honest. Stay the hell away from my video games. I play in part to escape you.

If you bring up current religion with current issues, its a big cloud. Its going to be in the minds of everyone who plays. Mention the skyline to someone new to DX1 and watch them run into walls looking at it.

However, bring in references back to past religion stuff today's church's distance themselves from and you have 3 things brilliant off the bat.

1) - Immersion. Its not what we grew up with being told, its history so its implicate you can do a whole lot of what I've nicknamed hideoing (5 points if you guess why). Fact fact fact BULL**** fact. You don't spot the bull**** and enjoy it.

2) - No distractions. You don't have a Christian Orthodox pissed off for 20 minutes by making a mistake. Or someone making pre-judgments because of their current geopolitical stance.

3) - Control. You can control how much, and how deep it goes. Current religion is Pandora's box, you mention it you better damn make sure its the main theme.

Me, I'm an Art/Lit student doing Politics, religion and politics are sadly linked. What does this mean for my point? The amassing of all religions under a single roof, is so..outlandish that no amount of hideoing can in anyway fix it. You just, i.. argh, its just NOT possible. So many different people have such an incredible amount of hate for others. Garh that left such a bitter taste in my mouth. Its impossible from a political stand point and would become SO huge it would effect everything EVERYTHING for a VERY VERY long time. It would be the focus of every single person with something to protect. Its so big a deal that it was just utterly disgustingly under played, even if you create a bunch of outlandish, anyway I deviate.

Point!

Current religion, not on the playing tables unless they want it to hijack the story line big time.

Reference to the past, references, metaphors. That is what we want. Deus Ex major fans like unraveling things. Current religions are debated AS current religions i.e false/true.

In context of the past, they're taken as metaphors. Steps to deeper understanding, that kind of stuff.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th Jan 2009, 23:54
Thanks for the links, and for adding it to the important discussions, MyImmortal.

Recently, religion has seemed to be practiced with the same amount of passion, but with less effort. For example, when I said somethiing to one of my teachers a couple years ago, she was just as angry with me as she would have been 700 years ago, but he didn't behead me. Just look at all the practices abandoned by Christians, Jews, and Muslims throughout the centuries (and I'm not talking about the obviously impractical and immoral ones).
Also thanks for being alright with this thread, I know some people are really touchy about religion in any type of discussion.



Oh yes, hehe. I'm glad you weren't beheaded! :D

Yes, you are right, the passion does still exist for many, I certainly chose the wrong words there. I agree, 'less effort' is more appropriate and, perhaps, also 'less pressure'. Today, you are not shunned upon for missing Sunday Service whereas not so long ago, it would be considered extremely disrespectful as far as other residents in your community were concerned. Not so today, society is much more tolerant and laissez-faire.

No problems about allowing this topic. We're all mature people here and I'm sure we can enjoy a good, fair discussion about it. We can still remain respectful of others' beliefs, even if we don't agree/follow them.
Personally, I enjoy learning about different religions. :)

**

Thanks for the religious gene link. Sounds similar to the genetic studies that determine whether or not a person has an addictive personality... or may have violent tendencies etc, besides other things.
Well, the 21st Century is surely the Age of Genetics... so there is much more yet to be discovered.

El_Bel
12th Jan 2009, 00:29
Yes, you are right, the passion does still exist for many, I certainly chose the wrong words there. I agree, 'less effort' is more appropriate and, perhaps, also 'less pressure'. Today, you are not shunned upon for missing Sunday Service whereas not so long ago, it would be considered extremely disrespectful as far as other residents in your community were concerned. Not so today, society is much more tolerant and laissez-faire.


I could talk about how we are getting away from laissez-faire economy for pages but i dont think anyone is interested..

René
12th Jan 2009, 17:40
This is touched upon in the game in relation to the augmentations. There are people who think it's "playing God" to modify the body whatsoever and there are people (Transhumanists) who think it's the natural evolution of the human species to utilize technology. You're caught in the middle of this storm and get to decide which path you take. :)

GmanPro
12th Jan 2009, 17:44
You mean like playing without using any augs whatsoever? Thats cool... but only if I miss out on much of the game as a consequence.

KaiTenSatsuma
12th Jan 2009, 18:41
Heh now that I think of it, this installment officially takes place before the nano augs and the main character is "Adam".... :wave: anyone catching on?

I wonder who "Eve" will be ;)

NK007
13th Jan 2009, 22:53
You mean like playing without using any augs whatsoever? Thats cool... but only if I miss out on much of the game as a consequence.

But I think that means playing an entirely different game, joining with the Templars (or an offshoot of them), which I guess is damn cool.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jan 2009, 23:43
This is touched upon in the game in relation to the augmentations. There are people who think it's "playing God" to modify the body whatsoever and there are people (Transhumanists) who think it's the natural evolution of the human species to utilize technology. You're caught in the middle of this storm and get to decide which path you take. :)

Excellent! :cool:

Perhaps I should add a few words of (possible?) wisdom here... :D
"The only way... is the Omar way." ;)

:p

LatwPIAT
14th Jan 2009, 06:27
Nah, I don't think there will be (or should be) any religion in Deus Ex 3. The original didn't have any religion, probably implying that religion itself will go on a slow decay and be virtually forgotten in everyday life by 2052.


Or, you know, just never came up? Texures weren't exactly detailed enough to have small crosses or pendants on them, we actually visited a Catherdral once, where one of the characters admitted to being religious, there was a public temple in Hong Kong. What more do you want? Random preachers on every street corner?

GmanPro
14th Jan 2009, 06:43
"Many Buddha’s in Hong Kong..." :thumbsup:

Necros
17th Jan 2009, 03:29
This is touched upon in the game in relation to the augmentations. There are people who think it's "playing God" to modify the body whatsoever and there are people (Transhumanists) who think it's the natural evolution of the human species to utilize technology. You're caught in the middle of this storm and get to decide which path you take. :)
Sounds good. :thumb: Just make sure to do this properly, Space Siege was supposed to be about this too and it didn't turn out the way it was planned/suggested to be.

hem dazon 90
19th Jan 2009, 06:44
Imagine how it'd be like playing the whole game without installing, not only using, but installing any augs whatsoever, and observing the consequences in real time. Which is, being embraced easier by the anti bio modification fanatics instead of still being regarded as a corrupted instrument of pollution and blasphemy, unlike Alex Denton who always ends up getting hung by his/her "allies".

i doubt it was alex who washung by the templars

Popp
20th Jan 2009, 18:14
But I think that means playing an entirely different game, joining with the Templars (or an offshoot of them), which I guess is damn cool.

I've done this, with the exception of the first augment you have to do in IW to pass the "tutorial" part I replayed the game without using any more modifications.
My hope was to be able to join the Templars and be in good standing with them. WELL NO! They still hate me!

One thing I thought was neat to try out in replay: Have ONLY illegal biomods (evil charachter?).

Popp
20th Jan 2009, 18:18
i doubt it was alex who washung by the templars
Explain!
I've been digging everywhere for discussion on this, it's bugged me for years. I wanted to hear different interpretations of the endings...

InGroove2
20th Jan 2009, 18:34
i appreciated in DX the aspect of the templar church and crusades, which fits in with popular conspiracy theory.

the "order" didn't really do it for me.

the idea that the religion and it's fanatics create an obvious conflict, you KNOW there's a conspiracy in there somewhere. you know they're gonna be blowing people away and you KNOW who they are etc etc

as oppose to DX, where the religion didn't spurr the conspiracy as much as the religion was USED and mainpulated by conspirators. the religion was a fraud... that's WAY more intriguing than just another bunch of maniacs trying to serve anything besides simple power-lust.... power-lust in the name of purification is weak-sauce.

Tstorm
20th Jan 2009, 22:18
Less reigion would be better, I came to play a game not investigate a new way to worship God. Deus Ex 1 didnt focus THAT much on Religion as the second one did. Sure throw it in somewhere idc but dont make it the main attraction.

ilweran
20th Jan 2009, 22:32
as oppose to DX, where the religion didn't spurr the conspiracy as much as the religion was USED and mainpulated by conspirators.

The Order in DX:IW was an invented religion created by conspirators to manipulate people. One of the things I didn't like about the game was that the Illuminati apparently didn't realise how that could go horribly wrong.

hem dazon 90
22nd Jan 2009, 05:24
Explain!
I've been digging everywhere for discussion on this, it's bugged me for years. I wanted to hear different interpretations of the endings...

i think it is sybolic on how man hashng itself by de evovlving into dark age xtremists. so I think it is suppposed to be noone specific

PugPug
22nd Jan 2009, 20:13
I hated that there was religion in DX2. It seems so out of place in the scifi genre.

Though, at least they were the fanatical bad guys...

luminar
22nd Jan 2009, 20:20
I think one of the best things about deus ex was that the narrative was really good at not forcing one belief on you. they gave you all the facts and let you make your own decision. they didnt even tell you their opinion. deus 2 didnt do this and deus ex 3 should.

PugPug
22nd Jan 2009, 20:27
I think one of the best things about deus ex was that the narrative was really good at not forcing one belief on you. they gave you all the facts and let you make your own decision. they didnt even tell you their opinion. deus 2 didnt do this and deus ex 3 should.

Well DX2 had three factions at any given time: Order, WTO, and Templars. Then it became Illuminati, Dentons, and Templars. And they were all pretty extreme. Of course they were going to try to enlist you.

DX1 just had the good guys and the bad guys. Granted they switched places, but still. The plot decided for you what faction you were going to join, so nobody really had to try to sway you to their side.

So I guess the question is this: Would you like people to try to recruit you, or would you like the plot to decide for you?

BTW, did anyone ever finish a "stay with UNATCO mod?" And for that matter, is it still up for download? I know there was Plague of Betrayal, but I don't think it ever finished.

luminar
22nd Jan 2009, 21:15
All great points, but i was more talking in a relating to us in this world kind of way. deus ex makes you think, not accept their beliefs.