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Radius86
26th Dec 2008, 19:21
I wanted to leave this out of the thread for Weapon Suggestions because it's not really to do with what weapons or ammo you use. I'd like to know what people's opinions might be if a player can use his hands in melee combat. Sure we've had the riot prods, batons, pepper guns and PS20s in DX1, and in Invisible Wars there was very little room for silent sneak takedowns like that.

But I was playing DX1 (yesterday for the umpteenth time) and realised that even if I were stripped of all my weapons, I'm STILL supposed to be a nano augmented superior piece of firepower when compared to the average NSF trooper/ MJ12/ Unatco. Surely JC Denton learnt to sneak up to someone and choke them, or snap their neck at the Academy, right? OR at the very least use the weapon he was holding to bash someone's head in from the back.

Maybe, I'm wrong, maybe its too much immersion, but I think it would have added an extra layer to an already brilliant game. Then again, that was 2000.

Don't know if thats what DX3 has planned, but it might work out. WHat do the rest of you think?

Dead-Eye
26th Dec 2008, 19:46
Oh god yes. You should also be able to smack people with your weapon. It was one of the many good things that came out of Halo.

Radius86
26th Dec 2008, 20:41
For some REAL immersive plot line, maybe Jensen could snap a piano wire off a piano and use it as a strangulating weapon :P

NK007
26th Dec 2008, 20:45
You should be able to do that, but it should also be weaker than the wrench\crowbar\baton prod so that they will still be viable weapons. Also, the melee weapons should leave satisfying blood marks and gushes (did you see what a hammer does to a human head in that video?) than the butt of the guns.

Nathan2000
26th Dec 2008, 21:17
MULTI-KILL
When faced with multiple opponents, Jensen can unleash a combo of devastating martial arts moves, with the action switching to third-person.
It's a description of an augmentation. I thought you guys didn't like it. Or is it just the name?

Radius86
26th Dec 2008, 21:20
Well the name would be fine as long as the game doesn't also have something called a Multi TOOL ;)

NK007
26th Dec 2008, 21:40
It's a description of an augmentation. I thought you guys didn't like it. Or is it just the name?

I didn't like it personally. It's the fact that it says "a devastating combo of martial arts moves", and what it means - you know nothing else, but for some reason there's this augmentation that suddenly let's you bust out a stream of seemingly disconnected "martial arts moves" (basic punches and some high kick probably) that sends everyone of your enemies, no matter what state, to oblivion. Always hated it in games like this.

El_Bel
26th Dec 2008, 23:46
Of course i dont like it. I havent even seen it yet(although third person view is bad). But this fellow over here suggests something else! That you could make a silent take down with your hands or your weapons. Or something halo style, like shooting until you get close to the enemy and than smack the rest of them. And that your weapon get blood all over them as a reward (thats nice).

GmanPro
27th Dec 2008, 01:37
As long as smacking someone with a weapon doesn't do more damage then a bullet then I am fine with it. Who ever decided that a punch was more damaging than half a clip from an assault rifle anyway?

NK007
27th Dec 2008, 01:39
I did. Just accept it.

Mezmerizer
27th Dec 2008, 09:21
It would be nice to see melee combat in DX3!
I remember in DX1 when you wake up and you are a prisoner in a MJ12 facility.
I found a weapon so quickly, but think if you could just smash the guard with your bare hands :D

J.CDenton
27th Dec 2008, 15:15
What could be fun would be to use a Condemned like system: you'd use elements from the decor as melee weapons.

Ghostface
28th Dec 2008, 05:56
This may warrant its own thread, but Deus ex needs blocking. parrying and collision detection with swords. Otherwise you end up with this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLmllNd21Mo

Radius86
28th Dec 2008, 12:23
As long as smacking someone with a weapon doesn't do more damage then a bullet then I am fine with it. Who ever decided that a punch was more damaging than half a clip from an assault rifle anyway?

Of course it doesn't kill someone. But doing it to the head from behind renders them knocked out, which was enough in the game to not be a threat any more.

TrickyVein
28th Dec 2008, 18:31
Consider:

along with being able to actually defend yourself without a weapon, being able to take someone from behind and lead them in front of you as a hostage through a fortified area. Will the victim's own men shoot at him or not? This would be neat I think to see the back of the poor guys head locked in your arm on the corner of the screen much as we saw people's behind's when we were carrying their corpses in DX 1.

LatwPIAT
28th Dec 2008, 18:50
Consider:

along with being able to actually defend yourself without a weapon, being able to take someone from behind and lead them in front of you as a hostage through a fortified area. Will the victim's own men shoot at him or not? This would be neat I think to see the back of the poor guys head locked in your arm on the corner of the screen much as we saw people's behind's when we were carrying their corpses in DX 1.

"Pick a number between 1 and 10."
"Uh, 3?"
"Lucky guess. Now tell me what I want to know or we'll play another round."

Blade_hunter
28th Dec 2008, 22:17
I think melee combat should use some "special" moves to make some attacks, but stay simple in combat and use an attack / block move as a basic ones but no devastating attacks only other attack forms
I think on nowdays we can use much better animations than old games and have a good move of a melee weapon or body parts when we / or an NPC execute a melee combat move

BendingUnit
10th Jan 2009, 01:38
Good melee combat requires a system all its own. In a FPS type game I dont feel an elaborate system would meld well.
But melee combat does need some sense of effectiveness.
A simple disarming kick, or human shield maneuver would provide enough incentive to be used whenever possible.
Also a surprise attack from behind should be instant (important figures should detect you anyway) to encourage stealth.
Grab an enemy's gun and use it against another. He'll regain control after a second but that's long enough to use up his clip and force him to reload.
More incentives to use melee abilities should be from enemies using them on you.
If a target is in melee range you want to use disarming kick before he uses it on you.

Point being... Melee attacks should be more for the effect than for the damage.

Blade_hunter
10th Jan 2009, 09:01
I agree different form, different effect, we can have different damage, but I don't think an augmentation should give martial art move to a player ... This sound to be more a thing like a skill than a power and I hope this is nothing like an "Hadoken" or some MK things.
"Adam wins ! Fatality"

I think some melee combat moves can push an enemy for example, this can be a trick, or like a suggested possibility take an abject and use it as a temporary weapon.
In the game severance we can use objects and even cadaver parts, I don't suggest to take those kind of parts, but some old games have made this kind of features.
I think melee combat special moves can be "unlocked" by a skill and when we have the skill this move is allowed.
It can be one skill or a couple of them ...

NK007
10th Jan 2009, 15:33
In melee combat, it should all be available from the start and not at all. I think Eidos should look at Rid**** for inspiration. However, I don't want to see an armed enemy trying to disarm me unless he's an officer - that's just stupid.

LatwPIAT
11th Jan 2009, 12:30
I think some melee combat moves can push an enemy for example, this can be a trick, or like a suggested possibility take an abject and use it as a temporary weapon.
In the game severance we can use objects and even cadaver parts, I don't suggest to take those kind of parts, but some old games have made this kind of features.

Planescape Torment's disembodied Zombie arm? Your own disembodied arm?

Yeah, we totally need to be able to rip off enemy arms and beat people to death with them, so the game rating flies all the way up to 18+ or your local equivalent.

(Now, beating someone to death with your own arm; That we need.)

Jerion
11th Jan 2009, 18:51
^^ "This doesn't seem physically possible!" :D :D :D

kudos to anyone who gets that reference

Lilith
11th Jan 2009, 19:40
Going out on a limb, but that sounds like something to do with the Skulgun?


No idea ><

About melee in DX?

Honest first reaction was ew.

The game just doesn't feel right with it =/

If it was it needs to be weak, and exist for three things.

1) cleaning bot cleaning
2) breaking open boxes
3) drawing out the amount of times you can hit any character anything at all somewhat a tiny bit like Maggie Chow.

Jerion
11th Jan 2009, 19:52
^^

Silent takedowns (neck-snapping). That or a Vulcan neck pinch. :scratch:

Lilith
11th Jan 2009, 20:03
^^

Silent takedowns (neck-snapping). That or a Vulcan neck pinch. :scratch:

Fun sounding I guess, but too strong.

First person melee combat looks like a Bethesda affair to me tbh, I don't wanna see it in DX3. The 3rd person stuff is optional as I understand it, but optional in a 'you miss out on stuff, but you don't have to see anything annoying'. Neck snapping and stuff like that requires momentary lose of character control to perform a function.

I like that only terminals, ATMs, etc caused this.

Too much lose of control isn't a -bad- thing exactly its just not really very Deus Ex like, too close to MGS I guess.

Necros
17th Jan 2009, 00:55
That or a Vulcan nerve pinch. :scratch:
Fixed it for ya'. ;) :D

LatwPIAT
18th Jan 2009, 15:08
Actually, there's a plethora of ways to take someone down silently:

Snap neck (Deadly, difficult)
Cut juggular (Deadly)
Cut tranchea (Deadly, noisy)
Stab in the heart (Deadly)
Stab in the spine (Deadly)
Punch to the temple (Potentially lethal)
Chokehold (Potentially lethal)
Blow to the back of the head (Potentially lethal)
Blow to the neck, utilizing the cartroid sinus effect (Potentially lethal)
Blow to the solar plexus (Potentially lethal)
Blow to the nose (Potentially lethal)
Blow to the side of the jaw (Difficult, practically non-lethal)

It wouldn't be to hard to tie some of these to various skills. Even if the player didn't make every single move, I don't think a little short loss while I move completes would be to hard. It worked fine in Mirror's Edge to disarm someone.

Radius86
18th Jan 2009, 20:24
Snap neck (Deadly, difficult)
Cut juggular (Deadly)
Cut tranchea (Deadly, noisy)
Stab in the heart (Deadly)
Stab in the spine (Deadly)
Punch to the temple (Potentially lethal)
Chokehold (Potentially lethal)
Blow to the back of the head (Potentially lethal)
Blow to the neck, utilizing the cartroid sinus effect (Potentially lethal)
Blow to the solar plexus (Potentially lethal)
Blow to the nose (Potentially lethal)
Blow to the side of the jaw (Difficult, practically non-lethal)


Hardcore! Now THIS is what I'm talking about. Of course programming most of these to this level of aiming and accuracy for combat would take a while, I'm assuming...

Tstorm
22nd Jan 2009, 00:27
How about having to use your fists? That always worked out for me when playing ultimate doom. If you have the arm augmentation maybe you could do more dmg each lvl etc? I would love to punch people. New way to fool around in the world of deus ex.

Blade_hunter
22nd Jan 2009, 01:19
It can be an augmentation or a skill, depends what we want after all.
we can upgrade weapons and ourself

The elements shown by LatwPIAT sounds cool

If we can catch a guy and knock/kill him or eventually use him to get some information, or eventually pass a biological scanner, like retinal scan or digital scan.

We can make jokes :D if two guys are near a table and we are under the table and make a little punch to each guy's and after that they fight because they think it's their pal that make that punch :P

I don't know but infiltration and diversions sounds fun ^^

KaiTenSatsuma
22nd Jan 2009, 23:11
Melee combat in Chronicles of Riddik : Escape from Butcher Bay was pretty spot on, how about using that as a bit of a reference point?

Decay
23rd Jan 2009, 17:12
I think that martial arts should be the subgroup of skills. I liked Deus ex skill system but in Third part i would like to see more advanced skill system - may be similar to f.e. diablo. Lets say 5 groups -
1. Weapon masteries (increased domage with using different types of guns etc)
2. Defense abilities ( increasing life, mastery with using light/heavy armor etc, some kind of dodge )
3. MARTIAL ARTS ( i see it like this: lets say 6 different trees 1. using deadly brutal skills -like neck braking 2. focused on knocking unconscious 3. on tanking 4. on disarming armed people - Trinity trick in 1st matrix and so...
Player could change different stiles and fight with the way he likes - one style would got neck braking - 100% when attack behind, another making a living shield of enemy...
4. Tech skills like hacking, medicine, pick locking etc
5. Sword using - also some styles - strong fast medium...
Would be cool imo...
Waht do u think about it?

Necros
23rd Jan 2009, 17:32
3. MARTIAL ARTS ( i see it like this: lets say 6 different trees 1. using deadly brutal skills -like neck braking 2. focused on knocking unconscious 3. on tanking 4. on disarming armed people - Trinity trick in 1st matrix and so...
Player could change different stiles and fight with the way he likes - one style would got neck braking - 100% when attack behind, another making a living shield of enemy...
5. Sword using - also some styles - strong fast medium...
Would be cool imo...
1,2 and 3 are all right and should be in DX3 but these two are just too much. It has to be simpler, a few melee moves and no sword styles, this game isn't about that. Maybe as an add-on or whatever later, after the game is finished. I'd rather see slow-mo than these two. :p :D

Decay
23rd Jan 2009, 21:53
Well not exactly with nr5 - tech skills. In DE1 there were abilities to hack computers, open locked doors etc. I think that in DE3 also should be these possibilities - it would give depth to the game - player may choose the solution of problem he likes - standart in de series. And skill like medicine. Eidos told that Adam will regenerate health automaticlly - maybe after mastering skill? Would be wise to make such solution. And swords - yeah not all people must like it, but it would turn dx into melle/rpg/shooter - would be more ways to eliminate opps. So means would be better wouldnt it?

Blade_hunter
24th Jan 2009, 00:02
You can concentrate most abilities with a low amount of skills

Some abilities needs for example strength, agility in addition of an appropriate skill ...

You can use a skill combination to get some abilities and for example unlock abilities with some weapons / or unarmed combat.

You can do the next thing, if you want to get a neck breaking move (this move needs that the victim unaware of our presence)
move requirement
Agility 4 of 8
strength 2 of 8
Low tech 2 of 8

I think it's better with intermediate levels of skill instead of three
An other thing is being able to use our ranged weapon as a melee weapon for example pistols, shotguns, and many other rifles

I don't want to focus only with melee combat but in DX it was often used ...

Alex Jacobson
24th Jan 2009, 03:32
You should have the option to sneak up on someone and suffocate them. Also the idea of being able to bash with guns makes sense.

PugPug
24th Jan 2009, 07:24
I wanted to leave this out of the thread for Weapon Suggestions because it's not really to do with what weapons or ammo you use. I'd like to know what people's opinions might be if a player can use his hands in melee combat. Sure we've had the riot prods, batons, pepper guns and PS20s in DX1, and in Invisible Wars there was very little room for silent sneak takedowns like that.



DX2 melee was fine, if you used the baton. Silent and fast, with the melee strength aug. And nonlethal to boot.

As for hand-to-hand combat, I'm not sure how I feel about it. Maybe if they kept it simple, like Crysis-style.

Decay
24th Jan 2009, 12:50
Well Fallout 3 Special skill system is not bad, ive been also thinking about this, but seriously i created "own" conception: Augmentations would be connected with statictics and not connected with skills: i would like to see 4 bookmarks: 1 for equipment, 1 for health and stats, 1 for augs and 1 for skills. I leave eq, and focus on health and stats: there would be map of body, with head torso arms legs and next to it statictics, but there wouldnt be any points given into it:
Strength: basic 20 max 50 ( would exist special aug that would give 3 str/level. max levels 10. And thanks to it player could carry more eq and lift heave objects. passive skill ofc)
Health: in % - sume of all parts of body. Health could be enhanced by augs also.
Energy- used to use active augs, basic 100 max ~300 incresed by special aug.
Accuracy - it would be calculated by health of 2 hands - 100% health of both hands would be 100% acc and so...
Speed - like all, enhanced by augs. Max 7.5 metres/sec minimum 3/sec
Endurance- allows to sprint from 10sec to 30
Jump heigh - from 0.6 m to 3.1m m
Lungh capacity - from 20 secs under water to 180 or so
weigh - how much eq we carry.

And also domage done by martial arts: domage from hand, by leg, speed of hitting and kicking
AAAnd reduction with using armors: reduction to
projectiles
rockets
fire
eletricity
acid
martial
blades
Also been thinking about KOTORS' reputation - depending on killing gyus player would gain title- assain and so...

Blade_hunter
24th Jan 2009, 14:52
You should have the option to sneak up on someone and suffocate them. Also the idea of being able to bash with guns makes sense.

Hehe I like the idea of suffocate NPCs ^^