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CentraSpike
24th Dec 2008, 01:08
I have high expectations for this game and as a result I'm hoping Eidos really brings their A game to the table in terms of gampeplay. What I mean is rather than simply expanding inventory, level size, borrowing some gameplay elements from existing games such as health regegn (which I don't feel too strongly about either way) and juicing up the graphics Eidos really has to do something that hasn't been seen before yet in terms of gameplay or maybe has been done but never in a rpg/fps, something unique and innovative. I think this is the least a franchise as revered as DX deserves. I'm aware of the stealth and the cover system but that's not really taking gaming forward. Im hoping for a greater emphasis on intelligent gameplay which will take into account the abilities of an experienced security expert of the future.

Assuming it's not possible for the team to make giant leaps in every aspect of gampeplay. Which aspect would you like to see the most innovation/advancements in?

I apologise if this topic of discussion has been covered before.

NK007
24th Dec 2008, 02:20
Deus Ex seems to be the jack of all trades. Every other game seems to focus on something, but DX is sort of like GTA - there are too many things for it to be groundbreaking in any aspect IMO. For instance, I really like stealth and small scale squad tactics, but I seriously doubt the game will advance any of those. DX is an action-RPG-adventure-stealth-exploration-dialogue-choice game... It's about how the game's different aspects glue together in the new gen of gaming and if any serious advancements are made, they'll be made within the action-RPG genre as a whole, for instance - proper squad tactics IN the action-RPG genre.

Mein zwei cent.

sycomofo
24th Dec 2008, 04:25
I only have one thing to say. Eidos montreal need's to bring something new to the franchise. I'm not saying to forget about the first two game's. But let's face it if those game's came out today they would not stand a chance, and it's not gust because of the load times or the graphics. What I'm trying to say is that it's good to take the best parts of the other game's and put it in, but there also need's to be something new, something exciting that will grab the attention of the next generation of gamer's.

As much as I want the game to stay close to it's root's, I also want the game to be popular enough to warrant another game.:thumb:

spm1138
24th Dec 2008, 15:09
The thing I'm expecting them to do is really show off combat cyborgs.

Somewhat like Crysis but with more and better options.

Earlier games have sort of gone for this but with a current gen engine and all the graphical and physics sim possibilities that opens up I think they can better convey this. Hell, older engines didn't even do a very good job of conveying people.

That's how I'm reading the concept art and larger number of augs, anyway.

Beyond that I mostly agree with :


Deus Ex seems to be the jack of all trades. Every other game seems to focus on something, but DX is sort of like GTA - there are too many things for it to be groundbreaking in any aspect IMO.

What made DX ground breaking was that it wasn't worrying about genre. They had this idea for a story and they worked out what tools they needed to bring in from elsewhere to tell it.

GmanPro
24th Dec 2008, 19:10
Deus Ex is a jack of all trades but a master of none... actually it's a master at being a jack of all trades :thumb:

Castrol GTX
24th Dec 2008, 20:18
I'd go with the dynamic storyline, where your choices affect everything etc. They tried it on IW but it still wasnt quite right. But I'm sure they have the story just about pinned down by now.

Blade_hunter
24th Dec 2008, 23:54
For me the gameplay is an important part, some persons suggest to keep the original DX gameplay and put an other story, it was the thing I understood when I read many posts, because many players thinks DX is the apogee of gaming, etc...

I think about the game in general and give an other view about existing things, because remade exactly the same game in the gameplay aspect and add only 2 - 3 goodies, what's new in that ? it's the kind of thing we can expect from an add on or a mission pack, something like that.

Expanding the inventory I don't think there is the proper solution as well as expanding the level size. because level size, inventory size, etc are things made as a gameplay element.
Big levels adds exploration, gives an utility to long range view items like goggles or sniper based weapons, the use of vehicles, non linearity, multiple paths, etc.

In the game Chrome I thought the big environements have a too low utility for the game and if they were smaller I never thought it was a mess, because the game is too linear and we have only one way to accomplish the objectives. The AI can snipe and see you in a fog or hidden by a the vegetation, this make this graphical things beautiful for the eye and atrocious for gameplay.

To have good open environements we need a sort of reason to have them, like the use of vehicles, exploration, even if the level is a level group and it's separated by load points like in DX or half life for example....

the other reason is the sniping games like DX, farcry and many games uses open environments to allow sniping, what the need of a sniper scope if we can aim our opponents without that. And the bad thing is when we have a sort of damage amplifier by using the scope ... In totally arcade games ok but even UT doesn't use that thing (I don't speak about UC2)

About exploration one of the hidden rooms in DX 1 I was the most happy to find in DX it was this one
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=lfBxsThMC1U
The first time I go in there I was very happy to find something like this in a game.
I killed the karkians with my crossbow take the prism aug and the weapon upgrades hidden by some rocks.

About the inventory size It depends what we want to do if we want to do with the equipment, an unlimited inventory allow us less management (only ammo and other resources) for example, A limited one allow some management and forces the player to make some choices, like I have an heavy weapon on the ground, I throw up my rifles to use it or I keep my rifles because they were plenty of ammo ...
A very limited inventory disallow the versatility in game
In chrome I need always to change my equipment and often; I haven't an adequate weapon to fight my enemies because they are overpowered, under powered, they have a low ammo quantity in the field or they are inadequate to fight my enemies
In DX we have a limited inventory that allow versatility, but disallow to carry everything. for me that's the good way to take and keep, and make the difference between each items makes the choices interesting, instead of all weapons uses the same amount of space like in many games pistol = rocket launcher :rolleyes: or Rifle = SMG
The interesting thing is the choice between items with different uses size(it can be weight) and eventually counting about resources availability.

An other important thing is the interactivity, I give to this part a great importance because more the environment is interactive, better the gameplay is.
this part is with the NPC's and the rest of the game world.
For the NPC's it's AI tweaks, and some scripts, used when we interact with them, like I talk to an NPC or I attack the NPC or I grab a specific item or I throw a ball in their head ...
In the game world for example we can find doors, crates, barrels, etc, carrying them and move them is sometimes useful, but if the interaction is expanded we have a way to use our brain, like make "home made traps" (I don't know how I can call that ..)
The interactivity can be used in a stealth way like using a curtain to be hidden, go under a bed or a table for example and spy our foes and parhaps get some useful informations
An other thing is using tools to take a look or hear things with accessories like microphones, mobile phone, goggles, digital camera, etc
Use the food to cure ourself is a good thing bu using it by poisoning it is a bit more funny isn't it ?
I want to allow both players to play the game, the brute force ones and the stealthiest ones. I think it's the main spirit of the game.

What would say opened gameplay, uh ? it would say I use many elements and combine them to allow a large play styles with the same game like Warren does with DX itself. :thumb:

Allow to make missions in a different order is a proof of some non linearity even if the game base is linear and some objectives doesn't need to be done to pursue the game.


Merry Christmas everybody and sorry for may bad English (again)

NK007
25th Dec 2008, 10:38
I forgive your bad English. JK.

You're talking something more along the lines of Hitman, which is cool for a few missions I guess, but when you try to implement that to a game as wide stretching as DX, a lot of problems could arise. But I can see where you're going with this: double or triple the interactivity.

Blade_hunter
25th Dec 2008, 14:13
Yeah increase the interactivity of the game is the main thing I want for DX 3.
And interactivity a la Hitman is a good example and even the game commandos (is a bit close to Hitman)
I loved DX because it has a great interactivity, a couple of items, and their use adds some credibility to the universe like give zyme to junkies, or give food to children ....

NK007
25th Dec 2008, 15:26
I think shooting out lights and being able to burn stuff realistically is a good start for any game, now that physics are the norm.

CentraSpike
26th Dec 2008, 23:17
I would really like to see something new in terms of gameplay but I'm not suggesting that it should be the core aspect of the game. I hate it when devlopers base a game around one mechanic. An idea that I had (an idea which is strongly dependant on level design of the respective cities and the extent to which the sand box style will be present) was to create innovative ways in which to locate specific targets within a city in order to obtain your next objective so as to break up the gameplay. For example to gain access to the knowledge of the whereabouts of certain characters should be made quite difficult as it would in real life and a degree of skill should be introduced for achieving this. Adam should have to use surveillance skills bugging phones intercepting phone calls placing hidden cameras using tracking devices on members of the public. These are just random suggestions which could be fine tuned.

Blade_hunter
27th Dec 2008, 06:25
I think in DX we have no "core" gameplay and it's the strength of this game, we have some allowed versatility in our character build.
Rare are the gameplay parts that appears in the first position, as well as infiltration, action, exploration, RPG, etc..

We aren't forced to use our skill points at the same manner at the beginning of the game, we can use other configurations and clear the levels of the game.

I think the ability to make investigations to reach a certain point can be interesting, since multiple ways are possible.

In DX I loved to be a sort of MacGyver and use the elements to build a passage or reach inaccessible points in a level, in commandos I loved the same thing, use a wire and make a trap by using a bomb or a grenade it was really funny, like many things.

Now we have better physics engines we can use those physics as a tool, and those physics can allow mid closed doors, use some explosives to launch a crate far away and play bowling with our enemies by a strike in them.
Or use a Fire hose in some places to push away our enemies and eventually knock them ...

Your proposal sounds interesting since we aren't forced to use those methods I think you want to add this as an additional part of the game, like many things we can add.

I think a gameplay element, like any element of the game must be well integrated to form one solid block like it was done in DX 1.

DX is game with multiple cores and I think some things can be added to the old group ...

Smoke Screen
29th Dec 2008, 04:10
To have something new and inventiv in a game that realy matters for
gameplay is great,but in consideration of what games are released in
the past few years i prefer a more conservative approach and hope
DX3 will reach the level (gameplay- and playtimewise) of DX.
Im sure if we get half of this we are very,very,very lucky.
I mean look whats going on in the industry. Plugs a pulled everywhere.
Projects gettin binned. People loosing their jobs. Hard times are not
very good for risky inventions.

René
29th Dec 2008, 06:11
it's the strength of this game, we have some allowed versatility in our character build...We aren't forced to use our skill points at the same manner at the beginning of the game, we can use other configurations and clear the levels of the game.

Good post. So yeah in DX3 you can modify yourself and your weapons to be able to do different things and also in the physical world there are different ways to complete an objective. Multi-path, multi-solution. It depends on your play style and I personally like to avoid what the game wants me to do in order to progress until last. What I mean is, once I get a feeling for what I need to do to advance the plot of whatever, I do everything around that first, and leave it for last. I love pretty much going in the opposite direction, climbing things, opening things, checking out all corners of the map, talking to ever character, etc. etc. until when I finally get my fill of that before I do what I've known all along in order to advance in the game!

I guess that explains why I rarely finish games! For example, I've put in over 40 hours into Fallout 3 doing random and non mission critical stuff and I don't know if I'll ever finish the game. But I've certainly had fun and gotten my money's worth even without seeing the end!

crimethinker
26th Jan 2009, 05:56
I recognise that I'm probably a bit late off the mark to influence the development team in any significant way, but I must put in my 2p regardless.

DX1 remains my favourite game of all time, despite its many flaws. For DX3, I simply want the team to create a game very much in the flavour of the original, but correcting its flaws. The biggest flaw was its AI. If one aspect is improved the most, I want to see startlingly good AI.

At the time, I forgave DX1's AI because it was such early days for the computer game industry, but computers running at 3GHz with 1GB RAM are now pretty much minimum, which gives them the processing power needed to run good AI. If I could have a say about anything in the world, then DX3 would have good AI - even at the cost of reduced graphics! If I buy this game, it will be for the same immersive storytelling that more than made up for DX1's gameplay and graphics flaws; the immersion is greatly impacted by the quality of the AI. It's not very immersive to outwit an enemy MJ12 trooper with a ploy that wouldn't faze a 5-year-old in real life - something that I did constantly in DX1.

To improve stealth AI, the developers could look at these points to start with:

1. Enemies should notice their friends not returning from patrol.

2. Enemies should notice areas which should be patrolled/guarded, but aren't.

3. Enemies should have regular radio check-ins.

4. Enemies shouldn't talk out loud to themselves every time they see/hear something suspicious. (I have nothing against them talking to each other, but talking to oneself interrupts the immersion.)

5. If an enemy is found slain/unconscious, then search-and-destroy parties should start roaming the area.

6. Enemies should NEVER EVER stand down once their friend gets taken down. They stay on high alert until the player leaves the map.

To improve combat AI:

1. Enemies that see their friend take a sniper round to the face should subsequently dive for cover, and not come out of cover unless sprinting for better cover or shooting back. In particular, if none of them have a weapon with a long enough range to shoot back, then all the ones who can't run indoors (or to other excellent cover) shouldn't stop hiding until they think the player has been moved out of their sniping spot.

2. Enemies should have a weighted random variable that decides whether they run towards you, or lie in wait, or even run away. The random variable should be weighted for various factors, especially morale, and the number of friends with them. (Most games have it pre-decided that most enemies run right for you, and the few others lie in wait in some defensive structure or other. If it's too predictable, then you can pick the right tactic every time, and the immersion takes a hit.)

3. If enemies decide to run for help, they should do it at the correct time. The immersion of Far Cry took a big hit every time a group of soldiers spotted me right before I killed almost all of them, whereupon the final one would usually yell "Stay here! I'll get help!", and start jogging slowly away without a care in the world. It was so stupid, in fact, that I would whip out my worst weapon (possibly a machete!) and kill him with that, just for a challenge.

4. Script the AI if you must, but try to tweak it so it isn't identical every time. For example, if an enemy leans around a pillar, make him not only lean either way around, but stick his head out at different heights each time. (This last part stops the 1337 players from memorising head-height to within a pixel.)

I recognise that all of these points would make the game much harder. (The improved AI might only be used by the developers for the hardest difficulty settings, if the difficulty would affect game sales too much.) However, I also think that anyone who thinks making DX3 hard is a bad idea, is an idiot. If people want to play a game against dumb enemies, they can play games like Doom (where it's acceptable to say that all aliens/mutants/demons/anything else are stupid), or LittleBigPlanet (where you aren't really up against actual enemies). But this is Deus Ex! It's a game where you (presumably) become a covert/overt operative for a powerful organisation - it would be stupid if you could complete the game without careful planning and skilled play.

Sorry for the long blow-by-blow post of my thoughts, but I do think video game AI is in a sorry state generally, and I'm really eager for DX3 to break the mould.

EDIT: Oh, and it would be awesome if your combat/infiltration style became part of your reputation, influencing how your enemies expected you to come at them!

Popp
26th Jan 2009, 15:57
I hate the words "innovative" "ground-breaking" "NEW"!

Remember when Armies of Exigo came out? It was "ground-breaking" (echo, echo...) on account of how now you had TWO levels to work with, and brought a new strategic element...

Yes, it was a good game, I liked it. But I had way more FUN playing my ****ty old un-innovative Dune 2000.

I guess what I'm getting at, is that, well am I the only one who believes that some developers go out of their way to make something "innovative" that they just don't give a **** about making a game you will love forever... It just has to be a new idea that no other developer had!

It's one thing to make a game, and it just so happens that your ideas are new and innovative, and work well, like Deus Ex.

I'm babbling.

Popp
26th Jan 2009, 16:07
Good post. So yeah in DX3 you can modify yourself and your weapons to be able to do different things and also in the physical world there are different ways to complete an objective. Multi-path, multi-solution. It depends on your play style and I personally like to avoid what the game wants me to do in order to progress until last. What I mean is, once I get a feeling for what I need to do to advance the plot of whatever, I do everything around that first, and leave it for last. I love pretty much going in the opposite direction, climbing things, opening things, checking out all corners of the map, talking to ever character, etc. etc. until when I finally get my fill of that before I do what I've known all along in order to advance in the game!

I guess that explains why I rarely finish games! For example, I've put in over 40 hours into Fallout 3 doing random and non mission critical stuff and I don't know if I'll ever finish the game. But I've certainly had fun and gotten my money's worth even without seeing the end!
Oh my, I do the exact same thing! It took me, and no exaggeration, TEN YEARS to beat Fallout2. Not because I suck at playing it, but because I had to do EVERYTHING, HAVE everything, also my virtual-OCD made finishing it painful... Of and I had to have all the special encounters...

I just re-installed Might&Magic VII, on year 6 now...

Oh the memories...

Blade_hunter
26th Jan 2009, 20:07
Yes I like to go in the opposite ways than the ways dictated by the game, and I'm often frustrated with some modern FPS games because, sometimes the way that appears to be an alternate way is the way that the game wants we follow and I return back to see the fact I haven't any path to explore.
Rare are the games that proposes secret rooms, levels, paths and more in modern FPS games, even some FPS with expensive maps that allow a cool snipe party.

Gizmostuff
26th Jan 2009, 21:51
Advance game play yes, but it doesn't have to be anything new to me. I'd like it to just improve upon the original which isn't hard. e.g. no bodies going through walls, people getting stuck in doors,etc (although I found it extremely funny when Manderley would get stuck in his) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYOjf9oP4Kc

I'd love to see no load times, or at the very least make them shorter. More interaction in the game transportation wise. Being able to leave a city and come back to it anytime you want is something I've always wanted to do in Deus Ex.

I agree with crimethinker on a smarter AI. Deus Ex and DX IW had a stupid AI. I'm hoping Eidos will put in their overtime on this. I'd like to see a sentry be able to actually help a wounded comrade instead of just standing there to be the next target. It would be cool if he could come out and grab his arm and drag him to safety, unless the AI knows that he's already dead, i.e. head shot. This topic has been beaten to hell and gone. I'd be absolutely shocked if Eidos didn't improve on this and positive that they weren't listening to us at all.

The most important aspect of this game is the story line. If it sucks like DX IW did then the game will fail. You can't have a vast Deus Ex story line with small maps and little content. It's impossible.

Blade_hunter
28th Jan 2009, 14:33
The little content was one of the reasons why I hate IW, because even if they added some "corrections" and little things, my favorite is the unique weapons and the secondary fire even if the unique weapons were only an other version of an existing one.

About the levels I prefer great maps even if we have an average loading time between each, I just hope one level group of the first DX could be only one level, actually some games got that or with less amount of separations.

I just think one thing is about too much calibrated gameplay because most modern games got this and this isn't good like Bioshock and DX IW, I'd like to see some differences and not multiple path = 3 per situation for example, I think we must have some differences between each

about solutions I want to propose some sulutions even if some of them are basic.

1/ the first solution can be avoid the problems by an alternate passage
2/ use our gun (lethal or not lethal weapon)
3/ use melee weapons/hands
4/ use a weapon that can act as a trap (LAMs, mines, etc)
5/ use some objets / weapons as a combo, gun + poison/TNT barrel/crate, gun + unarmed grenade / mine / LAM (it can be aerosols gasoline cans and vehicles)
6/ throw explosive/poison/TNT barrels/crate
7/ use automated weapons/turrets
8/ remote control weapons or eventually machines over the map
9/ use world objets as weapons ranged and melee (chair, bottles, frying pan, fork, spoon, baseball bat, cadavers, electric cord, saw baldes, cartes etc...)
10/ use world items to make a diversion (it can be weapons doors and even switches like lights, alarms, automatic doors, elevators, general power supply, etc....)
11/ build a trap with world items (like use a grenade activated by a cord for example or put some water in a corridor and put an electric cord in the water and even hide a hole with a fragile object that can break when the enemy walks/run in, or use switches as a remote trap).
12/ Use boxes to be hidden in and eventually move inside
13/ Use disguise to go in a closer enemy field of view.
14/ Use NPCs to help us in a certain manner (activating a switch, make a diversion, fight with us, etc ...)
15/ Use our items to hack / destroy some parts of the world to make traps, open a passage or get items.

I proposed many ways even if some are a bit new or more expanded I hope to be able to do some of them in the next game....

Tracer Bong
28th Jan 2009, 21:00
Only two things, really:

1. Better AI. It would have made Deus Ex the best shooter ever if it had good AI.

2. A gravity gun aug. I'm under the opinion that every game should have a gravity gun since they are very fun. That's right, you developers! Develop your video games around MY tastes; forget everyone else. (Joking aside, a gravity gun WOULD rock, provided it doesn't have unlimited charges.)

AaronJ
28th Jan 2009, 21:11
Good post. So yeah in DX3 you can modify yourself and your weapons to be able to do different things and also in the physical world there are different ways to complete an objective. Multi-path, multi-solution. It depends on your play style and I personally like to avoid what the game wants me to do in order to progress until last. What I mean is, once I get a feeling for what I need to do to advance the plot of whatever, I do everything around that first, and leave it for last. I love pretty much going in the opposite direction, climbing things, opening things, checking out all corners of the map, talking to ever character, etc. etc. until when I finally get my fill of that before I do what I've known all along in order to advance in the game!

I guess that explains why I rarely finish games! For example, I've put in over 40 hours into Fallout 3 doing random and non mission critical stuff and I don't know if I'll ever finish the game. But I've certainly had fun and gotten my money's worth even without seeing the end!

That's pretty much my play style. Although, I have to like the environments. For example, anything done in the sewers or metro stations in Fallout 3, I skip. Too much copy/pasting.

MaxxQ1
29th Jan 2009, 04:01
That's pretty much my play style. Although, I have to like the environments. For example, anything done in the sewers or metro stations in Fallout 3, I skip. Too much copy/pasting.

QFT!

WhatsHisFace
29th Jan 2009, 15:16
Only two things, really:

1. Better AI. It would have made Deus Ex the best shooter ever if it had good AI.

2. A gravity gun aug. I'm under the opinion that every game should have a gravity gun since they are very fun. That's right, you developers! Develop your video games around MY tastes; forget everyone else. (Joking aside, a gravity gun WOULD rock, provided it doesn't have unlimited charges.)

I sincerely hope that you are joking with both of these. :mad2:

For the record, Deus Ex had very good AI for it's time.

SageSavage
29th Jan 2009, 15:55
A gravity gun seems too far fetched but DX1's AI really is a weakness (judging from todays standards).

Blade_hunter
29th Jan 2009, 17:59
Many old games have a lack of AI, in DX 2 the AI isn't much better, we got some randomness about AIs in game because we try to simulate an human AI with elements that are appropriate with an NPC.
All of us wants a great challenging AI, but for that the AI needs a lot of triggers, to be effective and react well, in DX for example when we are separate with an NPC with a ladder, they never use the ladder at all and even never jump over a little crate.
In DX 2 the most stupid thing I've seen about the NPCs is when the throw grenades, they commit often a suicide when they use grenades...
The AIs never use triggers except alarms, even if the door is locked by a code or locked with a nano key.
We never see the NPC using the code pad before using a locked door with a code.
If we are close to explosives like TNT crates they never fire in the explosives to defeat us
I think they need to be intelligent but not kamikaze like often in games the AIs are except if they are pure fanatics but not always ...

I think the game must innovate and push some limits over, and offer a tactical gameplay, allow intelligent choices by giving choices between elements, between tactics, between pathways, between quotes in conversations, between missions, between sides ....
I think the interactivity must be a master piece on a Deus Ex game, because in Deus Ex we got a pushed interactivity and we can push it over than before, even by giving an utility of useless items or items that appears to be useless, allow us to use the physics engine and make it more useful for the gameplay, using the sounds and the lighting useful too.
I think most features must serve the gameplay and even the story because the choices about our decisions taken by conversations must affect the game if there is a reason for that.
This is what I think about the game...

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