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Big Orange
16th Dec 2008, 05:16
While human crooks, guards, and soldiers will be the standard opposition for the PC to face throughout DX3 what about the security systems and fortifications? A security system could be something as everday as a burglar alarm (if you're breaking into a small business) or something as intimidating as a 120mm mortar emplacement covering the approach to a remote MJ12 facility.

For a gang's hideout you could have low tech (but still dangrous) booby traps that utilize the physics engine (like trip on the rope that is elaborately linked up to the trigger of a shotgun, for example), while police stations would reliably record your presence with CCTV that would be a bother later on (so you must destroy a computer terminal to get rid of incriminating evidence). While gun turrets are common automated threats in FPSs since GoldenEye, in a narrow canyon MJ12 sappers could rig up a massive flamethrower system to roast any intruder walking up the canyon.

GmanPro
16th Dec 2008, 05:24
Well, in DX1 and 2 they had those laser trip wires, which we all know aren't real. Myth Busters proved that. The real ones are invisible, and are usually infrared. So maybe in DX3 we could have some cool tech goggles that AJ can use to see them.

Jerion
16th Dec 2008, 05:37
I'm not sure that there should be any specific goggles for that sort of thing- It's a neat feature but it could get tiresome after a while. And if it's the sort of thing where you wear the goggles all the time, there's no point in making them invisible.

To get an idea of the sheer number of tripwire-shotgun traps you can rig up, check out Shoot Em Up. :nut:

I wouldn't mind a powerful anti-incursion system in an enemy stronghold; I think Area 51 did that nicely, except that I was expecting Military Bots inside the surface blast doors. :p

GmanPro
16th Dec 2008, 06:15
I'm hoping for a large variety of security systems. I always thought that the alarm system linked to the shattering glass was cool. But mostly I'm looking forward to seeing some cool military bots. The ones in DX1 felt a little bit old-tech so maybe we'll see some previous versions of them in DX3. :D

Big Orange
16th Dec 2008, 06:59
You don't need goggles to see invisible laser beam, you can augment your vision to seem them (and you could use augmented vision without the beer bottle effect that you have with IR goggles).

My idea of security/military robots is to make them similar to the wheeled bomb disposal robots that we have now, only armed and armoured, with better mobility. Intermediate designs between the robots that we have now and the ED-209s that we had in DX1. That makes the most sense.

And while DX should mostly be urban, we may have locations like an air base or R&D complex that for security reasons is located miles away from the nearest civilian settlement, in the middle of a forest, desert or jungle, so the MJ12 force garrisoned there could have enough space to call in an artillery or air strike on uninvited guests penetrating the outer perimeter.

K^2
16th Dec 2008, 07:59
Well, in DX1 and 2 they had those laser trip wires, which we all know aren't real. Myth Busters proved that.
IW actually states that laser beams you see are holographic projections, which is why they are color coded. You cannot see the actual beam, but to warn potential innocent bystander that something bad might happen to them, a holographic projection is placed at location of the beam.

gamer0004
16th Dec 2008, 10:05
Well, in DX1 and 2 they had those laser trip wires, which we all know aren't real. Myth Busters proved that. The real ones are invisible, and are usually infrared. So maybe in DX3 we could have some cool tech goggles that AJ can use to see them.

"My vision is augmented" ;)

GamerX51
16th Dec 2008, 10:30
so the MJ12 force garrisoned there could have enough space to call in an artillery or air strike on uninvited guests penetrating the outer perimeter.

Why is everyone automatically assuming that MJ12 will be the main enemies in DX3? :scratch: I just don't understand why some people are so hell bent on wanting to make DX3 an exact clone of DX1, right down to the games' plot. :nut:

Who says that DX3 will have anything to do with MJ12 at all? For all we know, the Illuminati could be the main Antagonists in the game. I, for one, am sincerely hoping that the Devs won't cave in to the demands of the DX superfans and will instead try to tell their own story within the DX universe; I'm sick and tired of the same old conspiracies and cookie-cutter world domination plots - let there be some fresh air in the DX series!

And before anyone responds to this post, just let me clear the air right now; I am in no way trying to belittle Big Orange or anyone else on this forum. I am simply stating my own opinion. Thank you.

spm1138
16th Dec 2008, 10:33
I definitely dig that idea.

Variety of defence systems.

Apart from anything else it mixes up the sneaking gameplay.

You could have stuff like trip-flares and claymore-alikes too. Electric fences. Deep ditches :D

Maybe Less-Than-Lethal defences in areas where it's just rent-a-cops guarding corporate offices?

Machinegunning a photocopier repairman who pressed the wrong button in the elevator is never good press.

Big Orange
16th Dec 2008, 14:30
Sorry, I mentioned MJ12 because they're a typical armed to the teeth DX faction who would have access to serious military equipment like landmines and tanks, not because they're going to be standard badguys (which they most likely will anyway, even with the Illuminati in charge since they were the Illuminati's muscle).

A good idea of a non-lethal defence system is an automated turret that fires out foam pellets that immobilizes you (or if you escape, clogs up your cybernetic parts for a few minutes so you're not operation 100%). Going through the woods you could trip on a tripwire that either launches a giant log with spikes to pummel you or a net that you pulls you up.

Barrack facilities housing soldiers should usually not have gun turrets and emplacements on the inside of the barrack's perimeter (since professional militaries are very strict about things like that) but opening doors in the middle of the night could activate a silent alarm for MPs on duty to quietly check out.

rockyrr
16th Dec 2008, 15:33
Cameras,sensors,turets and the stuff that DX1 had were the best :rasp:

Big Orange
16th Dec 2008, 18:04
Cameras,sensors,turets and the stuff that DX1 had were the best :rasp:

The strange steel eyeball CCTV cameras from DX1 made weird hissing sounds. :nut:

Jerion
16th Dec 2008, 18:50
Yeah, but they did the job well enough. :p

Big Orange
16th Dec 2008, 19:45
As iconic and efficient as they were, they already seem dated (tiny CCTV cameras in small domes are cheap and common now).

We could have security systems so extensive that you cannot just casually walk through the main entrance of a big base, even if there's just a dozen guards, due to the dense razor wire, concrete bollards, machine gun emplacements (both automated and manned), sentry towers, and pillboxes.

I've got an idea for a security system inspired by Arnie dystopian actioner The Running Man; motion sensor poles for the outer perimeter that can detect movement, and if they pick up something the drone machine guns are activated or/and guards are called in.

rhalibus
16th Dec 2008, 19:48
I always thought the steel eyeball in DX1 was more realistic than the projecting security cameras in DX2--you heard the machinery first, and then had to locate them visually--much better than immediately knowing their location.

It's also important to mention all the different ways you could circumvent trip-lasers: block one side with a box or a fire extinguisher, use an emp grenade, jump or use boxes to climb over them, hack, etc. Part of the fun of DX1 was being rewarded for figuring out what you could do.

I hope Eidos takes note, and concentrates on a sandbox world in which the player can even discover a new solution to a problem that doesn't simply involve the big four (fighting, stealth, hacking, or conversation).

Big Orange
17th Dec 2008, 13:06
I've got an idea - what if by infiltrating a medium security military depot with a few guards and getting into a supply create you can now be smuggled into a maximum security facility that you would otherwise couldn't get in?

TrickyVein
17th Dec 2008, 14:01
...just imagine the action there, waiting for some maintenance men to come and pick you up. Yep. AJ could even have the option to play dead in front of his enemies. Just walk up to a door, collapse, and have the nice folk take you inside their complex.

Jerion
17th Dec 2008, 14:19
...just imagine the action there, waiting for some maintenance men to come and pick you up. Yep. AJ could even have the option to play dead in front of his enemies. Just walk up to a door, collapse, and have the nice folk take you inside their complex.

Hiding in a crate, sure, but "playing dead" is suicide if any AI is too perceptive.

LatwPIAT
18th Dec 2008, 14:09
Hiding in a crate, sure, but "playing dead" is suicide if any AI is too perceptive.

A "fake death" aug that reduces vital signs to minimum, making it possible to infiltrate buildings by playing dead. For an excellent example of how this would work, see the game Planescape: Torment. For some odd reason (I'm in the middle of my first playthrough) you always awoke from death, and dying in some areas would have corpse collectors drag you along to new areas, including areas that were otherwise innaccessible.

Gun down a few people, shut down all your systems, wait for them to try to loot your agus or something, blast them in the face with your arm shotgun. Easy as pie.

See? Playing dead is perfectly viable gameplay option.

Big Orange
19th Dec 2008, 01:50
^Yeah, I was thinking of suggesting that - pretending to be dead would have the advantage of getting you inside an high-security medlab for autopsy, but you'd lose all of your clothing and weapons.

I can see paramilitary checkpoints manned by local police being a constant threat in every urban location you visit, with invasive X-ray machines, CCTV, and ID scanners up the wazoo.

NK007
19th Dec 2008, 13:27
We need a neighborhood watch in DX 3.

Radox Redux
19th Dec 2008, 20:49
Brilliant idea. I now officially want a fake-death aug in DX3. Also note that cameras don't set off alerts for corpses, so you could use one in the same vein as a Metal Gear cardboard box. Or simply use it for ambush purposes.

Yargo
19th Dec 2008, 22:10
You guys should play Haze(PS3) if you like playing dead so much.:D

TrickyVein
27th Dec 2008, 17:51
...I was joking about playing dead. Personally I think it's not a very good idea. What about all of the WAITING that the player would have to do? Perhaps it could be streamlined somehow, but It doesn't fit into my idea of action moves for AJ. It's like sticking your head in the sand when the bad guys show up.

NK007
27th Dec 2008, 18:28
...I was joking about playing dead. Personally I think it's not a very good idea. What about all of the WAITING that the player would have to do? Perhaps it could be streamlined somehow, but It doesn't fit into my idea of action moves for AJ. It's like sticking your head in the sand when the bad guys show up.

Unfortunately your idea has taken hold. That's why they always "don't give them ideas". Good job, prick.

MaxxQ1
27th Dec 2008, 18:39
Unfortunately your idea has taken hold. That's why they always "don't give them ideas". Good job, prick.

Well, THAT was uncalled-for...

NK007
27th Dec 2008, 23:13
I was kidding, obviously. It's not like the devs are gonna embrace it... I hope...

LatwPIAT
27th Dec 2008, 23:19
...I was joking about playing dead. Personally I think it's not a very good idea. What about all of the WAITING that the player would have to do? Perhaps it could be streamlined somehow, but It doesn't fit into my idea of action moves for AJ. It's like sticking your head in the sand when the bad guys show up.

Then don't use it..? I mean, I didn't like all-out combat in Deus Ex, so I didn't pick the Plasma Cannon or the Shotgun or the Assault Rifle if I didn't have to, but they were still there. Likewise, some people might prefer lockpicking to hacking, but they still have the option of hacking.

Also, I like waiting while my plans come to frution. I gives me an arrogant, sadistic glee to see the paltry AI fall victim to my superior intellect while I do nothing but take my time.

NK007
28th Dec 2008, 02:06
I agree, without slow moments the fast and furious ones won't be fun. But playing dead still feels way out of place in a serious game.

spm1138
28th Dec 2008, 04:43
It gave us some awesome moments in MGS3 ;)

It's not that ridiculous an idea.

gamer0004
28th Dec 2008, 14:27
Then don't use it..? I mean, I didn't like all-out combat in Deus Ex, so I didn't pick the Plasma Cannon or the Shotgun or the Assault Rifle if I didn't have to, but they were still there. Likewise, some people might prefer lockpicking to hacking, but they still have the option of hacking.

Also, I like waiting while my plans come to frution. I gives me an arrogant, sadistic glee to see the paltry AI fall victim to my superior intellect while I do nothing but take my time.

Plasma rifle

K^2
28th Dec 2008, 17:35
To be fair, plasma rifle is a ridiculous name. What exactly is rifling meant to do to a plasma burst? Plasma cannon is a much better name.

NK007
28th Dec 2008, 17:59
Do you even know the physics of plasma?

TrickyVein
28th Dec 2008, 18:24
...I dunno. It's all so hypothetical.

Prick. Ha.

LatwPIAT
28th Dec 2008, 18:48
Do you even know the physics of plasma?

Do you know what "rifle" means? A rifle is a hollow cylinder with spiraling grooves, in it's most basic form. Now, I might not have a university degree in physics, but I think both K^2 and I know that a glowing hot blob of plasma does not gain increased accuracy by being pusehd through a rifled pipe.

Now, you could possibly claim the plasma is encased, and that you spin the casing, but that's grasping for straws. Especially since the projectile is very blobby.

gamer0004
28th Dec 2008, 21:42
To be fair, plasma rifle is a ridiculous name. What exactly is rifling meant to do to a plasma burst? Plasma cannon is a much better name.

Wikipedia know the answer:
"in many works of fiction a rifle refers to any weapon that has a stock and is shouldered before firing, even if the weapon is not rifled or does not fire solid projectiles."

So Deus Ex was right... (in fiction terms anyway)

"A cannon is a type of artillery, usually large and tubular, that uses gunpowder or other usually explosive-based propellants to launch a projectile over a distance."

A plasma rifle/cannon/whatever is not artillery. And plasma is not really a projectile, I guess.

El_Bel
28th Dec 2008, 22:19
Do you even know the physics of plasma?

I guess he does.

K^2
29th Dec 2008, 00:05
Do you even know the physics of plasma?
Yes, actually.

Wikipedia know the answer:
"in many works of fiction a rifle refers to any weapon that has a stock and is shouldered before firing, even if the weapon is not rifled or does not fire solid projectiles."
That's just because people keep misusing the term. But yes, I guess cannon isn't a good word for it either. How about a plasma musket? I'm running out of ideas here, but I still don't like it being called a rifle.

Big Orange
29th Dec 2008, 02:24
OK, maybe the 'play dead' was not such a brilliant idea after all. :nut:

Doorways are important for security and can be destructable scenery. Wooden or light composite doors with those silly button 'n key locks would be as common as dirt in any business and normal government property - they could be easily picked, shot apart, or even kicked in if you've got above average strength. But when you get to a proper security door you'd certainly know it, with the door made of steel and is three inches thick with two or more automated slide bolts and only a keycard slot.

LatwPIAT
29th Dec 2008, 06:20
OK, maybe the 'play dead' was not such a brilliant idea after all. :nut:

I can't help but think you draw this conclusion prematurely, especially since there has not been any real devastating arguments against it.

spm1138
29th Dec 2008, 08:11
Yes, actually.

That's just because people keep misusing the term. But yes, I guess cannon isn't a good word for it either. How about a plasma musket? I'm running out of ideas here, but I still don't like it being called a rifle.

Plasma Projector.

Plasma Infantry Gun.

Self Contained Energy Weapon System.

Toroid cutter.

Superheating Projectile Weapon (you know plasma weapons as generally portrayed wouldn't work because the plasma would cool down once it left the muzzle and just dissipate... so maybe you could have some sort of fancy grenade launcher where the round heated into a bolt of plasma).

?

GmanPro
29th Dec 2008, 08:32
That does seem to be the logical way of looking at it. I thought that plasma was more or less just super heated material, like a fourth stage of matter.

Making a shell or grenade that either is or contains plasma seems like it would be pretty inefficient as a weapon... Too expensive to produce and maintain and probably not very effective in real combat situations. It's still cool to have in a sci fi game though, don't get me wrong. Energy weapons are definitely a must. I'm thinking something like half life 1 where the energy weapons were sort of experimental prototypes.

K^2
29th Dec 2008, 10:53
Plasma Infantry Gun
I like that one.


I thought that plasma was more or less just super heated material, like a fourth stage of matter.
It is a state of matter, but not necessarily very hot. Interstellar medium is mostly plasma, and that stuff is something like 4K. You need to have some combination of high temperature, low density, and low ionization energy. Then you get plasma.

It does tend to be ridiculously difficult to contain at meaningful densities. If you accelerate plasma with EM fields, you also end up having to deal with Coulomb repulsion, because ions and electrons will be pushed in opposite directions, leaving you with positively charged plasma. Really, for a plasma weapon to be efficient, plasma must depart it at relativistic speeds, and that's just not going to happen any time soon.

El_Bel
29th Dec 2008, 12:20
Antimatter reactors are not going to happen soon either, but Area 51 has them anyway.

The government has technologies we never thought of.. in the world of Deus Ex.

NK007
29th Dec 2008, 12:54
I like that one.


It is a state of matter, but not necessarily very hot. Interstellar medium is mostly plasma, and that stuff is something like 4K. You need to have some combination of high temperature, low density, and low ionization energy. Then you get plasma.

It does tend to be ridiculously difficult to contain at meaningful densities. If you accelerate plasma with EM fields, you also end up having to deal with Coulomb repulsion, because ions and electrons will be pushed in opposite directions, leaving you with positively charged plasma. Really, for a plasma weapon to be efficient, plasma must depart it at relativistic speeds, and that's just not going to happen any time soon.

This silly (read: entertaining) argument about plasma (let's just call it a Plasma Gun, huh?) made me realize something. Never, in my life, have I seen a plasma turret!!!It could spew plasma in your face or just something on the top of your head. I can already see the soldiers conversing about how scary it is to pass underneath one every time.

K^2
30th Dec 2008, 02:57
Antimatter reactors are not going to happen soon either, but Area 51 has them anyway.
Building anti-matter reactor is quite trivial, actually. I can build you one for a reasonable fee.

Getting anti-matter to run it, on the other hand, is a bit complicated. Still, anti-matter "batteries" are much more likely to happen in the next century or two than plasma "rifles".

El_Bel
30th Dec 2008, 09:50
Well, how much for a small reactor that can power my neighborhood? Oh and i want it with fuel for the next 100 years.

Actually, whats the difference of antimatter batteries and matter ones? I dont think that antimatter can give a lot more of juice.

K^2
30th Dec 2008, 13:02
My reactors come without fuel. You'll have to obtain your own.

Antimatter battery is not battery made from antimatter. It's just a small, portable unit that can create its own particle/anti-particle pairs, store them as matter/anti-matter in magnetic confinement, and then annihilate that stuff to get energy back. Highest energy density possible.

Chemical battery can only give you a few eV per nucleus. The above could give you a few GeV. Of course, there is no telling how efficient energy storage and collection with these may be. Anyways, it is a very distant future.

Something a bit more realistic is storage using nuclear energies. Look up Hafnium-178. Mini-reactors/batteries and weapons using Hf-178 may be near future.