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View Full Version : wall jumps like Motoko, movements, parkour



Ghostface
16th Dec 2008, 02:23
I'd love to be able to wall jump in Deus ex like Motoko does. More movement options should be created to simulate an augmented human making use of movement and movement to escape and move quickly.

Some examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRIgBPtC2zA

I'll post some more examples later

Necros
16th Dec 2008, 11:27
This isn't Mirror's Edge or Prince of Persia or Assassin's Creed. If you want that kind of gameplay, get those games. :) Sure, it would be fun to do those things but there are many more important gameplay elements EM must get right, they shouldn't take on too much, they have a hard enough job already. ;)

ZylonBane
16th Dec 2008, 20:41
Threads like this serve to remind us all why focus groups are the mortal enemy of games like Deus Ex.

WhatsHisFace
16th Dec 2008, 20:44
I'd love to be able to wall jump in Deus ex like Motoko does. More movement options should be created to simulate an augmented human making use of movement and movement to escape and move quickly.

Some examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRIgBPtC2zA

I'll post some more examples later

You gotta be freaking kidding me.

spm1138
16th Dec 2008, 20:49
Could be interesting, after all DX has always had a speed/high jump aug.

The main problem I see is making a workable control scheme... but then I suppose they are using the Tomb Raider engine.

And of course the guys who want it to be turn based probably won't be able to muster the hand/eye :p

It'd be cool if that was how they implemented the speed/jump routes through the levels though.

Jerion
16th Dec 2008, 20:50
I don't want to see that extensively, so No.

Ghostface
17th Dec 2008, 03:12
Could be interesting, after all DX has always had a speed/high jump aug.

The main problem I see is making a workable control scheme... but then I suppose they are using the Tomb Raider engine.

And of course the guys who want it to be turn based probably won't be able to muster the hand/eye :p

It'd be cool if that was how they implemented the speed/jump routes through the levels though.

Yeah. I dont mean something as complex as mirror's edge, but a simple system that would let you use a wall jump. Like pressing the "sprint" button, jumping, and then double taping the splacebar("jump" button) when you hit a wall.

Makes sense from a realism perspective, isnt too complicated and is quite simple to program. Deus ex is about options; so if you dont like it, dont use it.


I don't want to see that extensively, so No.
you wont have to use it

MaxxQ1
17th Dec 2008, 03:56
Ummmmm...no.

Just...no.

Blade_hunter
17th Dec 2008, 05:40
I think this kind of thing would be interesting since we need an aug to execute them...
She sounds to use DX like augmentations (speed and the cloak) after all since the game isn't based on the "parkour" gameplay.
There is a post about the parkour thing no ?

K^2
17th Dec 2008, 06:16
I think some elements of Mirrors Edge movements could be borrowed. And yes, it would work better, gameplay-wise, if it is only possible with an aug.

P.S. If your anti-torque is hit on a heli, you have to kill the engine and autorotate. Trying to rise by pulling on collective is just suicidal. You'll lose all control so fast it's not funny.

Ghostface
17th Dec 2008, 07:31
I think some elements of Mirrors Edge movements could be borrowed. And yes, it would work better, gameplay-wise, if it is only possible with an aug.

P.S. If your anti-torque is hit on a heli, you have to kill the engine and autorotate. Trying to rise by pulling on collective is just suicidal. You'll lose all control so fast it's not funny.

Yeah, that was my thinking as well, although I did not state it clearly. It would work when you have the mod on and make gameplay more dynamic.

Wow good eye there K^2! Although maybe they're using some type of technology that compensates for it?

Anyway
EXAMPLE # 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThbcsUlNENU&feature=related

exactly 59 seconds in, she does it again

rhalibus
17th Dec 2008, 21:25
Interestingly enough, the other Crystal Dynamics game Tomb Raider: Underworld actually has a gameplay mechanism that lets you wall jump; here it is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgLY-YD9wYQ) in action. It would seem, however, that this mechanic would work best in 3rd person gameplay; and for Deus Ex, the less situations that take you out of 1st person, the better. :)

TrickyVein
18th Dec 2008, 00:06
Being able to sustain damage from massive heights would be useful and damn cool - landing with a big THUNK right beside (or on top of) some unsuspecting guards - and mantling is a good idea.

But I think something the likes of which you posted in that vid is only best realized in third person - something which DX should not be.

Jerion
18th Dec 2008, 00:11
^^

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=890092&postcount=79

:whistle:

Freddo
18th Dec 2008, 02:56
Roof jumping is fun in the original Deus Ex (and in other games that allow it), but I see no reason why there should be advanced acrobatic stuff in it. It's not in the focus of Deus Ex as far as I'm concerned.

GmanPro
18th Dec 2008, 02:58
The Thieves Highway map in Thief 2 was so awesome. :)

No fancy acrobatics there, just pure epicness.

Laokin
18th Dec 2008, 08:58
Interestingly enough, the other Crystal Dynamics game Tomb Raider: Underworld actually has a gameplay mechanism that lets you wall jump; here it is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgLY-YD9wYQ) in action. It would seem, however, that this mechanic would work best in 3rd person gameplay; and for Deus Ex, the less situations that take you out of 1st person, the better. :)

Left 4 Dead has wall jumping in it (with the hunter) it's all 1st person and it works extremely well. So well that I can fly through a whole level without touching the ground. Did I mention how fast paced it is? View point doesn't have anything to do with the ease of wall jumping. UT2k4, and UT3 have it also. Mind you it's really easy in all 3 games, all three exclusively first person.

Just my $0.02

K^2
18th Dec 2008, 13:35
I think it is just the way it is done. TRU's wall jumping really does work better in 3rd person. But I've seen some Mirrors Edge gameplay, and I don't see how can it work in anything but the first.

The only thin in Tomb Raider games that can get really disorienting in first person is swinging from the poles. If people manage to get motion sick from other games, they probably would not be happy with this technique. Everything else can be taken to first person without a loss with maybe some minor modifications.

Tracer Tong
19th Dec 2008, 00:05
http://ui08.gamespot.com/1735/failed_2.jpg

No. It's DX3, not Mirror's Edge here.

Jerion
19th Dec 2008, 00:12
As far as I'm concerned Mirrors Edge is a fun game, but this is DX 3. No need for crossovers. :p

What I would like to see is the whole terrain grabbing thing- no need for fancy acrobatics. It would just be nice to (in first person of course), see Adam throw out his arm and hold onto an object/wall/corner when sprinting to cover and ducking behind it. It kinda bothers me how in some games you always have perfect balance, know what I mean?

Tracer Tong
19th Dec 2008, 00:33
As far as I'm concerned Mirrors Edge is a fun game, but this is DX 3. No need for crossovers. :p

What I would like to see is the whole terrain grabbing thing- no need for fancy acrobatics. It would just be nice to (in first person of course), see Adam throw out his arm and hold onto an object/wall/corner when sprinting to cover and ducking behind it. It kinda bothers me how in some games you always have perfect balance, know what I mean?

NaturalMotion's Euphoria takes care of that (get drunk in GTAIV)

Spyhopping
19th Dec 2008, 00:40
I want to see a bit of imperfection and loss of composure.
If we are going to see much third person, perhaps he could writhe around a bit when he's been shot. I'd like to see him a bit bloodied up when he has been injured (although saying that, auto health regen might make lasting injury impossible).
Perhaps in later cutscenes (if there are any) Adam could start looking a bit rough when he's been on the go for a while.

Do think some of the suggestions in this thread would be very cool but I can't see stuff like this being a hugely significant factor in the success of the game

rhalibus
19th Dec 2008, 02:28
If not wall jumping, at least mantling! :D

Oh, and btw, Motoko rocks.

NK007
19th Dec 2008, 12:48
Cancel acrobatics seriously.

Instead, how about an aug, maybe as an unlockable, like a "climbing claw" or something that lets you climb buildings and walls and stuff. Shouldn't be complicated.

GmanPro
19th Dec 2008, 14:55
No, not complicated to do. But they are pretty annoying.

They had wall climbing gloves in Thief: Deadly Shadows. I guess they were cool and all but throughout the entire game there were only a handful of places where you could even use them. And most of the time you'd start climbing a wall only to hit a clip brush or other obstacle, that in real life you'd have no problem just climbing over, but in the game they blocked your path completely. It would have been better if they had kept the rope arrows imo.

But suction cups and or magnets in the soles of your hands would be a cool aug :cool:

NK007
19th Dec 2008, 16:20
Thief III keeps crashing on my desktop, but for what its worth the first DX had some pretty cool places to climb. Thing is, it affects the level design and such, so I don't know 100%... Either way suction cups are so 90's, the cool guys use claws that smash into buildings, leaving behind slashing marks in the concrete (way cool).

GmanPro
19th Dec 2008, 16:45
:scratch: I got an image of Wolverine in my head from that post lol. :D

I guess with that blade aug you could probably do some climbin. Though I think I'd feel safer with suction cups or magnets...

NK007
19th Dec 2008, 17:54
I don't know why suction cups give me the image of untalented cartoon robbers.

LatwPIAT
19th Dec 2008, 18:23
What would really be included in this? Basically, yould would need to expand on the mobility in an enviroment. Would anyone really be bothered if we could climb up pipes, shimy on ledges and kick off walls with the right augs?

What I wouldn't want is the kind of inconcistency they have in GitS. Occationally the writers seem to disagree on how much exatly the Major and her co-wokers can withstand. I mean, in Deus Ex you could withstand falling a few stories with the leg augs activated, but falling too far would kill even the stronges. GitS on the other hand, doesn't seem to agree with itself what is acceptable. One occation you need a rope, the next you can fall off a crane without problems. One occation you can jump over a forest, the next you're limited to taking the stairs.

Radox Redux
19th Dec 2008, 20:43
I'm surprised most people are against this. It sounds like a logical continuation to me. It would help with multipath apparoaches in levels to have something for an updatable freerunning skill. Think back to the computer room at Vandenberg; a climbing skill option would've helped there. Or climbing that guard bridge in Paris and pulling a guard over the edge.

This is Deus Ex. These type of athletic skills shouldn't be ruled out as a character concept. How about shimying around the edge of a building or something? Remember the annoying vents in Cairo in IW, that led nowhere except to high above the street? It could also change the way you disarm cameras.

NK007
20th Dec 2008, 03:58
Forget it, too much time to implement properly.

Ghostface
20th Dec 2008, 06:30
I'm surprised most people are against this. It sounds like a logical continuation to me. It would help with multipath apparoaches in levels to have something for an updatable freerunning skill. Think back to the computer room at Vandenberg; a climbing skill option would've helped there. Or climbing that guard bridge in Paris and pulling a guard over the edge.

This is Deus Ex. These type of athletic skills shouldn't be ruled out as a character concept. How about shimying around the edge of a building or something? Remember the annoying vents in Cairo in IW, that led nowhere except to high above the street? It could also change the way you disarm cameras.

Thats exactly what I was thinking. I think people in this thread were just quickly jumping the bandwagon and didn't really think it through.

Necros
20th Dec 2008, 07:24
But suction cups and or magnets in the soles of your hands would be a cool aug :cool:
I think something like that is possible, melting the glass would be cool too. :)

http://img34.imagevenue.com/loc625/th_57248_hand_122_625lo.jpg (http://img34.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=57248_hand_122_625lo.jpg)

Radox Redux
20th Dec 2008, 17:03
Forget it, too much time to implement properly.

I doubt it. Level design-wise it certainly isn't. And gameplay-wise it isn't anymore thanks mostly to Mirror's Edge. It would work really well IMO , both control-wise and formula-wise.

Necros
21st Dec 2008, 05:11
I have to disagree, it would mean a lot of extra work and testing and I think it isn't worth all the trouble. Like I said before, this game isn't about this fancy gameplay element, there will be a lot more to do, you won't miss it. ;)

NK007
21st Dec 2008, 12:01
I have to disagree, it would mean a lot of extra work and testing and I think it isn't worth all the trouble. Like I said before, this game isn't about this fancy gameplay element, there will be a lot more to do, you won't miss it. ;)

QFT

Mirror's edge is a completely different game, ya know. It's like saying vehicle mechanics would be easier to implement in DX because Gran Turismo already did it.

K^2
22nd Dec 2008, 00:39
The argument is silly, but the statement itself isn't far off. Most of these mechanics are easy enough to implement, especially considering the fact that CD engine is designed for TRU, game that is already full of all kinds of crazy moves.

The trouble will be with play-testing all the levels to see if any part of the environment glitches with some sort of a move.

I don't think DX3 needs to have all the moves of Mirrors Edge. That'd be nuts. But it can pick up a new move or two compared to the original. I would like an ability to lie down completely on the ground and move about that way, rather than just crawling. I'd like an ability to do running climbs onto walls higher than can be reached by normal jumping. The grab and pull up from IW should return, IMO. Little things like that.

Radox Redux
22nd Dec 2008, 01:55
Since when did Deus Ex limit this type of games design? Having the option to climb up some scaffolding instead of taking a lift is fairly simple and goes along extremely well with Desu Ex's entire point. It's really no different than having a swimming skill (though more than a hell of a lot easier) and I still don't see how it would be hard to implement in level designs.

Also, I was only using Mirror's Edge just to rebuff the point of FP games not being able to pull of these type of things. The Gran Turismo thing is entrely different genre, wheras having an athletic character concept is an extension of what's already been done, and I think it's stupid to condemn it becuase it's "fancy". Last I remember, I didn't want to be told how to play my Deus Ex. And athletic abilities are a much more viable option than a heavy weapon user.

K^2
22nd Dec 2008, 09:34
It's difficult to implement in level design because it is so easy to exploit. Imagine a level artist deciding to stick a pipe on a side of a wall. Some player figures out that he can wall-jump off that pipe onto some other surface and so on to get to the top of a wall that is meant to separate out portions you aren't meant to reach. That can easily mean bypassing a whole lot of obstacles in much too simple way, leading to murder of important character thereby "breaking" game script, or even to exiting the level all together.

When you add new movement options, you have to also come up with new ways to restrict them. Because whether you realize it or not, level design is primarily about restricting player's movement.

Jerion
22nd Dec 2008, 16:19
^^ Exactly. You always have a single (or sometimes multiple) path to reach an objective, but you have to find some way to make sure the player follows those path(s).

NK007
22nd Dec 2008, 17:22
It's difficult to implement in level design because it is so easy to exploit. Imagine a level artist deciding to stick a pipe on a side of a wall. Some player figures out that he can wall-jump off that pipe onto some other surface and so on to get to the top of a wall that is meant to separate out portions you aren't meant to reach. That can easily mean bypassing a whole lot of obstacles in much too simple way, leading to murder of important character thereby "breaking" game script, or even to exiting the level all together.

When you add new movement options, you have to also come up with new ways to restrict them. Because whether you realize it or not, level design is primarily about restricting player's movement.
^
What I was trying to say but I'm too illiterate to put out in words.

GmanPro
22nd Dec 2008, 20:35
Reminds me of that video I saw of some guy beating Half-Life in just under 45 minutes. As soon as he got to Surface Tension, he just powered up the Tau cannon and blasted himself up into the skybox. Then he proceeded to just bypass huge chunks of the maps in short order.

K^2
22nd Dec 2008, 20:53
^^ Exactly. You always have a single (or sometimes multiple) path to reach an objective, but you have to find some way to make sure the player follows those path(s).
Right. Single path makes you feel too much like a rat in a maze, though. Once you have choice of paths, you start feeling freedom. But the constraints still come first.

With all that in mind, I still want new moves. Not a lot, but something to make things a little different. IW was on the right track with adding ledge grabbing.

rhalibus
23rd Dec 2008, 00:41
^^ Exactly. You always have a single (or sometimes multiple) path to reach an objective, but you have to find some way to make sure the player follows those path(s).

I'm not sure if it would be too difficult to design levels that allow free vertical movement if the player can figure out a way to do it. The Liberty Island level in DX would obviously be shorter, but it wouldn't break the game.

In the real world, unlimited vertical movement (climbing walls, jumping, etc.) can be difficult, but it's still allowed...That's why fortified complexes have roofs and barbed wire. I think a designer's extra consideration when designing a level about how a player could exploit vertical solutions would really add to the realism and immersion of a game. Deus Ex had this in many levels: you could climb on a roof to access a skylight, or pile up boxes ad-nauseam to hop a fence--both offering satisfying but realistic solutions to a problem...

Just make sure QA doesn't figure out how to jump on a skybox...:)

jc_lemon_lime
23rd Dec 2008, 07:22
i don't see anything wrong with it as long as it's something you'd need an aug to do. the whole point of having customizible augs is to open up new and diffrent gameplay avenues.

spm1138
23rd Dec 2008, 07:30
Parkour / climbing augs would just be like a ready supply of crates no?

It's not impossible to design levels to allow jumping.

Necros
23rd Dec 2008, 08:12
The argument is silly, but the statement itself isn't far off. Most of these mechanics are easy enough to implement, especially considering the fact that CD engine is designed for TRU, game that is already full of all kinds of crazy moves.
But those are in third person mode, it would be a difficult job to get at least the already existing moves work well and look good in FP mode. But if I'm wrong, correct me, I'm just guessing based on what I've picked up during the last few years.

Since when did Deus Ex limit this type of games design? Having the option to climb up some scaffolding instead of taking a lift is fairly simple and goes along extremely well with Desu Ex's entire point. It's really no different than having a swimming skill (though more than a hell of a lot easier) and I still don't see how it would be hard to implement in level designs.
"Simple" climbing up is no problem, but wall jumps and free running and other parkour stuff is a whole different thing. Pulling yourself up, like in the Thief games could easily be done, climbing (certain types of) walls shouldn't be too hard but you'd have to get the appropriate aug to do that (and I guess we'll see something like this, based on the concept art). But doing all the other things would mean way too much extra work, so I say let EM concentrate on more important gameplay elements. Maybe in the sequel. Or midquel :scratch: (if DX4 will be between DX1 & 2) or whatever. :D

NK007
23rd Dec 2008, 09:00
I just hope if we do get a climbing aug, it won't be like: "when ever you see a green marker, you can use your awesome claws (not suction cups :(!) to climb this, and only this, 1 meter wide part of the wall". If you aren't gonna give us free climbing, just nix it IMO.

GmanPro
23rd Dec 2008, 19:03
Thief III keeps crashing on my desktop,

Its probably a hyperthreading issue. The same thing used to happen to me, and the only solution I could find on the internet was to quickly turn off one of my cpu's cores for the Thief 3 process using Windows Task Manager.

Eventually it just stopped crashing for me and I think it's because I downloaded a dual-core optimizer from the AMD website.

Mindmute
23rd Dec 2008, 19:27
I just hope if we do get a climbing aug, it won't be like: "when ever you see a green marker, you can use your awesome claws (not suction cups :(!) to climb this, and only this, 1 meter wide part of the wall". If you aren't gonna give us free climbing, just nix it IMO.

I utterly agree here, full freedom or nothing.
Scripted events where you are almost guided by hand to one of the paths you can take are annoying for me.


As for acrobatic moves, I don't know how well they'd fit in with DX... I guess it'd depend on how they were done, but I wouldn't be optimistic about that.

Necros
23rd Dec 2008, 19:49
Full freedom? No, I don't want that, it's not Spiderman. :) Some restrictions must be there, we shouldn't be able to climb a few types of walls and well placed obstacles would be good too, just to make sure this ability is not overpowered and overused. So, something like in Thief 3, only done better. And of course if this will be avalaible, we must have a few side missions that are only accessible if we get up somewhere.

NK007
23rd Dec 2008, 20:58
Its probably a hyperthreading issue. The same thing used to happen to me, and the only solution I could find on the internet was to quickly turn off one of my cpu's cores for the Thief 3 process using Windows Task Manager.

Eventually it just stopped crashing for me and I think it's because I downloaded a dual-core optimizer from the AMD website.

LOL I have a single core :P

NK007
23rd Dec 2008, 21:00
Full freedom? No, I don't want that, it's not Spiderman. :) Some restrictions must be there, we shouldn't be able to climb a few types of walls and well placed obstacles would be good too, just to make sure this ability is not overpowered and overused. So, something like in Thief 3, only done better. And of course if this will be avalaible, we must have a few side missions that are only accessible if we get up somewhere.

Of course not that kind of full, climb on those 1500 meter tall buildings kind of freedom, but it should be like - if we think can climb it, we should be able to.

gamer0004
24th Dec 2008, 10:38
Exactly. Deus Ex was great because it allowed you to handle things exactly like you wanted to. In so many games I got in trouble (bugs, invisible walls etc.) because I thought there was a much better way to handle things than the one the devs showed me.
If such a wall climbing aug would be implemented I should be able to use ot everywhere I think it can be used becausse otherwise it feels very forced and breaks the immersion badly.

spm1138
24th Dec 2008, 15:17
DX had those. It was just subtler about it than other similar games (by which I mean it generally had visible walls instead :D ).

There's always engine limitations to work inside of.

Always takes a bit of clever stage decoration to make this not apparent and keep things immersive which I think is the mark of good map making.

Install/reinstall Ghost Recon and have a look at that. The maps aren't that big (400m * 400m maximum) and the engine doesn't necessarily have the best fidelity but they certainly don't feel pokey and stuff like the sound design really helps the levels become more than the sum of their parts.

NK007
24th Dec 2008, 16:54
I think the big question is: Can you actually see Adam wall running?

jc_lemon_lime
24th Dec 2008, 19:58
Mirror's Edge did first person free running pretty well. (when the crappy level design wasn't shooting it in the kneecaps)

spm1138
24th Dec 2008, 21:00
I think the big question is: Can you actually see Adam wall running?

Depends what his power/weight ratio is :scratch:

gamer0004
24th Dec 2008, 21:52
DX had those. It was just subtler about it than other similar games (by which I mean it generally had visible walls instead :D ).

There's always engine limitations to work inside of.

Always takes a bit of clever stage decoration to make this not apparent and keep things immersive which I think is the mark of good map making.

Install/reinstall Ghost Recon and have a look at that. The maps aren't that big (400m * 400m maximum) and the engine doesn't necessarily have the best fidelity but they certainly don't feel pokey and stuff like the sound design really helps the levels become more than the sum of their parts.

Of course, but as long I don't feel restircted by them; i.e. if I can do everything on my first runthrough which I can image, then it is right. And Deus Ex did that.

NK007
24th Dec 2008, 22:43
Depends what his power/weight ratio is :scratch:

And would we need to continuously tap two buttons to keep him running or will it just be one button?

Ghostface
25th Dec 2008, 22:24
The tapping of buttons might work, as long as it's fairly simple to pull off.

As for freedom of movement and level design, you have to think about real life. A real military installation would be protected from threats from above and at ground . All you have to do is have some bots and/or locks in place to keep Adam from getting in too easily due to his enhancements.