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Blade_hunter
12th Dec 2008, 01:00
I make this thred to show what kind of moves i want and of course for the others posting their ideas about that

Even if I think my thread is a bit useless ... it's just to share ideas ...

- I misunderstand what we need to switch to a 3rd person for executing special actions like be covered, and even using a melee weapon or eventually using a vehicle

- The 3rd person view if some players wants that can be chosen like the first person one.

1/ First person

when we are on 1st person view we can see our body if we look our feets no more floating bodies like the old games, if we have a suit we ca see the difference, if we do something particular we can see it if this action is in our field of view, if we have a big red nose we can see that, like if we have gloves or not we can see that if we wear an hazmat we can see that, if we use a disguise we can see that, if we crouch down we can see our knee if we look down, not only into a mirror or any reflecting material just looking down, if we have a blade on the right arm, the same thing stay applied

2/ Covering, leaning, etc

the leaning is a cover move like the prone position, but leaning needs sometimes we need to swap hands to get the weapon on the right or the left hand.

3/ melee combat

when we use our fists or eventually a foot we can do that without changing our view and more the foot stay available all the time it can save some ammo sometimes ...
if we do a special combo we can do a spacial shot with our melee weapon, but nothing devastating,
for example if we press the jump key and tap twice the forward key we can use our 2 feets at once, but when we "land" we can't move because "we" try to recover our stability

4/ Use a vehicle, biomods, and other special actions

If we have vehicles, our mods or what ever we can see if for example we enter into a vehicle, a crane or eventually, using a ladder, activate tentacles if we have. we can see our hands making the specific actions and the rest of the visible parts of our body like hands, legs ....

5/ 3rd person

for the guys that want to play in a third person view we can make any things like the first person one but staying in third person even sniping. if we snipe on third person we can see a sort of scope in our crosshair this scope has a zoom by the selected and available zooming power

6/ Ironsights, aiming

If we have aiming, ironsights or something close to that things we can use the following things for each view
FPS -> like any classic modern FPS we put the weapon at screen's center and aim like a traditional FPS
TPS -> we have the camera at the character's shoulder and we have the ability to move of course

7/ Jumping, strafeting, etc

If we want to jump we can but if we want to climb a wall or eventually be suspended in a pipe, a bar we can do that but we must holster our weapon (it can be automatic and recovered since we have our hands free)
for strafeting we can strafe normally or make a lateral jump a la max payne or unreal

for the rest ...

I just didn't like view transitions because it breaks the immersion I play first person games because they give that immersion, a ting that third person games doesn't have, I played hitman in first person view and even if we have some transitions (because it was manly a third person game most things stayed in the selected view ..)

NK007
14th Dec 2008, 15:05
This entire post is a little confused, but I do agree about one thing (and I can't believe this wasn't mentioned before) I wanna see my damn body when I look down!

K^2
14th Dec 2008, 15:39
It has been, actually. Body awareness is pretty much a must these days.

I also would like to see the rest of first person done properly. As OP said, if there are vehicles, character should be animated to interact with them properly. And, of course, the instrument panel should be properly animated.

Iron sights aren't really necessary, but they can't hurt.

K^2
14th Dec 2008, 16:01
Performance and hiding bad collision detection and poor contextual animation. In earliest 3D shooters (Doom, Quake) the characters were actually sprites, so it would look completely wrong. Later games (Quake II, Half Life) used a single box for collision detection, and the animation played out within that box. So if a character was on the stairs, not all of its feet would touch them. These things become very apparent in first person.

First good example of body awareness I've seen was actually Thief III. There, whether Gareth would stand or fall would be decided based on collision between feet and support surfaces. Stance would change as you moved over different surfaces. And probably the best idea was to have the head, rather than entire body, follow the mouse. So unless you turn over 90 degrees or move your body doesn't shift when you look around.

All of this requires fairly complex collision detection scheme and animation system. Both are fairly expensive in terms of computing power. Hence, only relatively recent games have had the clocks to spare for that kind of thing. Now, however, games spend so much on physics and animation that there is no reason not to do this except for devs being lazy.

NK007
14th Dec 2008, 17:45
Morever, Thief III was also developed by Eidos (though a different part), there should be some sharing (as Thief III is really old by now anyway) which should lead to it being easier to implement in Deus Ex!

I didn't play any recent games as my computer is now 5 years old, do games like Crysis and Fallout 3 have full body rendering in FP?

K^2
14th Dec 2008, 17:55
Strangely, Fallout 3 does not. It does descent enough rendering of the character in 3rd person, so I don't understand why they went with disembodied spirit for the first person. Just like in the older games, your arms are all that you see of your body.

T3 was developed by Ion Storm and published by Eidos. Ion Storm is gone now, so there won't be any cooperation from there. And that's probably for the best. Remember physics from IW? I don't know how they didn't screw up body awareness in Thief, but I don't want to see them getting a second chance at that.

NK007
14th Dec 2008, 18:04
Either way body awareness was top-notch and they should definitely look into that game. HEAR ME EM?

Blade_hunter
15th Dec 2008, 01:12
http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/6108/goreuslq2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

This is a screen about the first game showing our body in internal view

My post is about moves and the inducted immersion because I think view transitions breaks immersion

and in my post I propose what I think it can be solutions for that purpose in internal view we can use this or that, in external view too.

I think some moves and actions keeping the same view reinforces immersion in a game.
I proposed some ideas about if we use vehicles or ironsights in case they were in the game, if they weren't, they weren't and we don't need to worry about that.
Some examples were shown in some games, sometimes aiming in a third person shooter put the view in first person, it can be the use of ironsights or using a sniper scope.
If we have the option to use different view like 3rd person or first I think this action must be wanted by the player, not by the fact I take cover, I enter to a vehicle, use the vehicle or I use a melee weapon, many games have those things.
I suggested methods to keep a wanted view without transitions, because for me they are an immersion factor, in a conversation it's a bit different because it gives a movie feel, like a cut scene with the game render, like the previous deus ex games.

Necros
15th Dec 2008, 01:49
This is a screen about the first game showing or body in internal view
There were some games showing your body before Thief 3 but that isn't the same as the first person actor or body awareness, whatever you wanna call it.

A great example from a recent game is Far Cry 2, they did this very well, you really interact with your surroundings, though you can't see your own body when you look down, except when you get injured and you have to fix yourself - that can mean pulling out out a bullet with some tools, applying bandage and so on, I love it. You really feel like you are in the game because of this. :cool: If Deus Ex 3 has something like this, with full body awareness, I'll be very happy. But if not, that's not a problem either, this is just a little extra fun, there are many more important things they have to care about.

K^2
15th Dec 2008, 02:11
Yes. Nice thing about body awareness in Thief III is that if you aren't careful, you could knock something over, making noise, and alerting guards. So you had to actually watch where you step. It wasn't just added graphics, but a really fully interactive extension of the character.

Necros
15th Dec 2008, 02:18
Oh, I remember that. I've cursed at those damn swords when I knocked them over too, just moments before I could put the guard gently to sleep with my blackjack. :D

GmanPro
15th Dec 2008, 02:19
It didn't really add much to the game imo. It was cool sure, but I still think the control in Thief 2 felt better, like I had more freedom of movement etc.

K^2
15th Dec 2008, 03:31
Realism tends to restrict movement. In Quake II I have gotten to the point where I could fly around most levels by carefully chaining grenade and rocket jumps off various surfaces, double jumps, and item pickups, still finding time to lob a rail gun slug at an occasional spectator. They don't even try to shoot at you when they see you jump half the way across the map and descend on them with a torrent of plasma rifle fire. These were the days. Freedom of movement? Absolutely. Would I try anything remotely similar with a real rocket launcher? Definitely not.

In a twitch shooter, there should be no restrictions. One with greater reflexes should be able to traverse landscape in unusual ways followed by a wave of "WTF HAX" messages. Thief isn't a game like that. Choice to restrict movement to something a little more realistic, where you have to watch your steps was a correct one.

GmanPro
15th Dec 2008, 04:47
True, but they restricted other things in thief 3 also. Like in Thief 1 and 2 u could flashbomb somebody and then run and and blackjack them. But in Thief 3 if somebody is blinded from a flashbomb, you can't knock them out. You have to wait for them to see again, and then wait even further for them to calm down and forget about youo. Which is just stupid. Also they nerfed the blackjack even further by forcing u to have to be behind your target for it to work. In Thief 2 I used to love to hide in the shadows in a hallway and wait for a guard on patrol to walk closer to me. When he was right in front of me I'd smack him in the face with the blackjack and he'd go down, even if he had just spotted me for a second or two. Much better system imo.

Necros
15th Dec 2008, 05:09
Yeah, that was a mistake but it has nothing to do with movement. :)

GmanPro
15th Dec 2008, 05:12
Sure it does. Because now you have to *move* around behind your targets all the time :p

K^2
15th Dec 2008, 07:21
That's just AI guys not thinking two steps ahead. Sad that is.