PDA

View Full Version : Internal consistency in Deus Ex 3: Disrespecting the setting.



Jellybelly
11th Dec 2008, 15:26
By now it is becoming increasingly obvious that the new developers of this franchise have taken it in a direction unacceptable to intelligent fans. Eidos Montreal have shown that they do not have the willingness to treat the franchise with the respect it deserves. They have stated repeatedly that they have studied the prior games intently, but it seems to me that they have failed to do so in any meaningful manner. This is most appallingly apparent with how the Montreal team disregard internal consistency. In story-heavy games, such as the Deus Ex games, this is something approaching a felony. For those of us who appreciate literature, and see gaming as another outlet for the literary mind, these "liberties" taken - whether for the purpose of achieving "coolness factors" or because they think the original product flawed in some way - are really unacceptable. They are an affront to our intelligence.

Now, where does a new developing house find the gall to completely disregard the source material when adding to a mythology and universe created by others? This should be a basic tenet: Do not contradict the material already present. However, this is exactly what seems to have happened. The Montreal team are now seen to make extensive changes to a world and setting that, twenty-five years later is predominantly identical to our own word. They introduce a highly futuristic science fiction world in a setting that at a later point in time somehow must "revert" back to the mundane reality we know today. This is tentatively explained by how society is supposed to be at a high point in 2027, but in the midst of a great depression in 2052. This is an explanation that any intelligent person should characterize as laughable. A world does not go from mundane to futuristic and back to mundane in a fifty year time-span.

I have seen many hear who argue that the setting of Deus Ex 3 is not too futuristic given the changes we are already seeing in the world as of 2008. This may be true. Although unlikely, the world could develop in similar directions in the intervening nineteen years. However, evidence from the first Deus Ex, set in 2052, shows that it does not. Although the changes may be plausible seen from the reality of 2008, that premise demands the disregarding of the original Deus Ex. There is no logic to this move. You do not ignore or circumvent the source material, you incorporate it. When this fails to happen, the result is that not only is the experience of the original Deus Ex cheapened, but the same is the case with this new se/prequel, as well.

There are, of course, much to mention in order to illustrate the minor points above, in addition to the futuristic setting. There are "extreme" augmentations, such as the ludicrous "bungee jumping/tentacle" augmentation, and the preposterous "multi-kill" mod. There are the computer screens, completely made up of holographic circles, which, frankly, do not correspond very well to the blue and green screens we know are the staple two and a half decades later. I will not even go into describing the ways in which these aspects of the new game is in direct opposition to the original, which it should be obliged to respect. Intelligent people will realize what is wrong with these things, and so it will not be mentioned further here.

Finally, the developers have said that they have deeply studied the original Deus Ex and formulated a vision for what the new game has to be in order to capture the postulated essence of the original. However, all they have done is identify game mechanics. They list non-linearity, social interaction, freedom of choice, use of augmentations, a conspiracy story, and so on. These are all well and fine, and indeed necessary in a Deus Ex game. However, when continuity and adherence to the existing story and source materials are ignored and contradicted, these positives become moot. When the setting is disrespected like this, the game ceases to be Deus Ex, and becomes something else.

I have oftentimes wondered why the developers would resurrect the Deus Ex franchise, and then go on to disrespect it like this. Why introduce all these innovations, innovations which are contradictory to plot as well as setting? Why not just create an original intellectual property, containing the aforementioned game mechanics which they allegedly spent so much time identifying? It is strange that you can study a game intently for the purpose of making a sequel, and then only manage to identify game mechanics. Why call this game Deus Ex, when it clearly is not?

spm1138
11th Dec 2008, 15:43
this is something approaching a felony.

:lol:

imported_van_HellSing
11th Dec 2008, 15:54
The unnecesarily sophisticated way that post was written reminds me of that one guy in Matrix: Reloaded.

Jellybelly
11th Dec 2008, 15:57
You found it sophisticated?

imported_van_HellSing
11th Dec 2008, 15:59
Perhaps i should have put that word in parenthesis. It's not really sophisticated, just silly.

Spyhopping
11th Dec 2008, 16:01
Mr Jellybelly, you are doing something which has been typical with people who don't like what we have seen so far. You are assuming that you suddenly know everything about the game from the tiny glimpse of information that we have been given.

It's great -by all means- to be concerned about the internal consistency of the developing game. It is of course something that could be a problem.
But please don't assume that the "intelligent" person would come to the conclusion that the dev team are completely disregarding the original story. Anyone with half a brain can see plainly that we know pretty much bugger all about what EM are up to

Jellybelly
11th Dec 2008, 16:02
Perhaps i should have put that word in parenthesis. It's not really sophisticated, just silly.

Why on earth would you put it in parenthesis?

Other than your lack of knowledge about basic punctuation, your way of substantiating your claims is impressive. Would the gentleman care to consider some of the actual contents of the post, at his leisure?

spm1138
11th Dec 2008, 16:03
There are the computer screens, completely made up of holographic circles, which, frankly, do not correspond very well to the blue and green screens we know are the staple two and a half decades later.
:lol:

jordan_a
11th Dec 2008, 16:13
If I'm not given real examples I'm gonna think I completely lost my time here! :(

Frankly, your post is just empty.

Though I have some clarifications:

-"bungee jumping/tentacle augmentation" or "DX1 was slow" (Just want to add this one) = misunderstanding. The october marketing wave was in my opinion an utter failure, and be sure that won't happen again.
-Disregard towards DX? Have you played DX3 yet? :scratch:
-"Do not contradict the material already present" Probably 85% of the audience today has not played a single Deus Ex.

imported_van_HellSing
11th Dec 2008, 16:19
Why on earth would you put it in parenthesis?

Other than your lack of knowledge about basic punctuation, your way of substantiating your claims is impressive. Would the gentleman care to consider some of the actual contents of the post, at his leisure?

Excuse me, I meant quotation marks. My knowledge of english grammar is mostly based on instinct rather than knowledge of rules, so it sometimes happens I make mistakes when I use metalanguage. Touché.

In any case, I'm tired of explaining every time how and why what we've seen so far is:

a) not necessarily representative of the whole game

b) not too "futuristic" in itself

People with your attitude just don't wan't to listen, you are so stubbornly attached to the featureless and low-poly look of the first game that it's beyond your scope to imagine a Deus Ex game that looks any different.

Absentia
11th Dec 2008, 16:20
:lol:

There are the computer screens, completely made up of holographic circles, which, frankly, do not correspond very well to the blue and green screens we know are the staple two and a half decades later.

Maybe the world changed their operating system from a yellow GUI to a blue and green one.

imported_van_HellSing
11th Dec 2008, 16:29
As I haven't commented on the computer interface before, might as well do it now. Consider the setting of that piece of concept art: it's a rich mansion, quite probably belonging to a member of the Illuminati or another secret society. So it is not unbelievable that there would be a holographic display there.

By contrast, the familiar screens of DX1 might just be caused by the already mentioned poor economic state of the world - such screens would probably be a lot cheaper than the holographic ones.

Jellybelly
11th Dec 2008, 16:41
If I'm not given real examples I'm gonna think I completely lost my time here! :(

I am sorry you feel cheated out of your time. As for your examples, they are apparent in the screenshots. I do not care to post them again here, but I will make some quick references. The futuristic look is apparent in many of the images of Shanghai, such as the look of the subway station, which really looks more like a space station than the subway in Hell's Kitchen or Paris. I should remind you again that the subways in Hell's Kitchen and Paris represent a much later point in time than the - presumably - Shanghai subway we have seen.



"bungee jumping/tentacle augmentation" or "DX1 was slow" (Just want to add this one) = misunderstanding. The october marketing wave was in my opinion an utter failure, and be sure that won't happen again.
-Disregard towards DX? Have you played DX3 yet? :scratch:

If these are misunderstandings, that is good to hear, indeed. Would you care to elaborate?


"Do not contradict the material already present" Probably 85% of the audience today has not played a single Deus Ex.

Is that supposed to justify ignoring the source material? If they call it a Deus Ex game, they should make it a Deus Ex game. That does entail attention to detail when it comes to setting, plot and characters. And really, if 85% of the audience today, which I assume is a completely arbitrary figure, have not played a Deus Ex game, I do not see the point in making this a Deus Ex game as opposed to a new IP.

Now, to address some points made by Van HellSing:


In any case, I'm tired of explaining every time how and why what we've seen so far is:

a) not necessarily representative of the whole game

b) not too "futuristic" in itself

People with your attitude just don't wan't to listen, you are so stubbornly attached to the featureless and low-poly look of the first game that it's beyond your scope to imagine a Deus Ex game that looks any different.

As to my attitude, I can assure you that I am willing to listen. I am also willing to stop listening when I realize that what is being said is baseless and erroneous. My objection is not with graphical advancements being made. It is not with level of detail or polygon-count that I have a problem. I would likely not be willing to play a touted triple A game of 2008 if it looked exactly like Deus Ex. However, I want the depictions of the world to stay consistent. A concrete building is a concrete building whether its appearance is "featureless and low-poly" or Crysis style. It should be possible for the developers to imagine a world similar to our own - and the one in Deus Ex - and introduce better quality graphics without going overboard on the futurism, like they have done.

You also say that the world of Deus Ex 3 is not too futuristic in itself. If you had been open to reading my original post instead of thinking up insults, you would see that I agree with this. The setting may be plausible in and of itself. However, seen in the context of earlier games the setting is clearly too futuristic. And this is exactly my point. The earlier games must be taken into consideration, otherwise they might as well have made an entirely new spy-game.

jordan_a
11th Dec 2008, 16:49
for your examples, they are apparent in the screenshots.That's not valid enough, moreover the setting is supposed to be the Renaissance with everything it implies. And thank God they are not linked to the source material art wise!!
If these are misunderstandings, that is good to hear, indeed. Would you care to elaborate?I talked a good deal with the person concerned about it.

And really, if 85% of the audience today, which I assume is a completely arbitrary figure, have not played a Deus Ex game, I do not see the point in making this a Deus Ex game as opposed to a new IP.Well it's probably more than 85% actually. :D And you should know that Deus Ex is an intellectual heritage, not a plastic one.

Jellybelly
11th Dec 2008, 17:07
That's not valid enough, moreover the setting is supposed to be the Renaissance with everything it implies. And thank God they are not linked to the source material art wise!!I talked a good deal with the person concerned about it.
Well it's probably more than 85% actually. :D And you should know that Deus Ex is an intellectual heritage, not a plastic one.

I find it puzzling that you anticipate a Deus Ex game if you did not even appreciate the style of the original. Surely it must have had something you apprecated since you quote the game in your signature. I also find it strange that all you can seemingly do is parrot what the developers have told you about this "renaissance" style. The statement "it is supposed to be renaissance, so they have a carte blanche to do what they want" is certainly not "valid enough", as you put it. To my claims that the setting is too futuristic for a Deus Ex game set twenty-five years before the original, which displayed a grimy, grounded and relatively mundane word, all you are saying is that "it is supposed to be more futuristic". I am sorry, that argument is nowhere near good enough.

And again, if less than 25% of the people who will purchase Deus Ex 3 have played the original, does that really grant the developers the right to do whatever they want to with the franchise? In my mind it certainly does not. There are obligations involved in taking over the intellectual work of others. I am not looking for a "Deus Ex as reinterpreted or reimagined by Eidos Montreal". When they name it Deus Ex, we should be able to expect the real deal.

spm1138
11th Dec 2008, 17:15
Oh good god. It's SCIENCE FICTION.

It's as futuristic as it needs to be to be for the tech to be plausible and the game to look cool.

The calendar year specified doesn't actually matter a great deal. Go watch 2001 (and 2010).

See also: Star Trek.

"Internal consistency" with UT99 and some fairly uninspired visual design isn't something anyone should lose sleep over if you ask me.

The look of DX3 is consistent with a lot of the same source material DX was trying for and not quite reaching. This would be stuff like Blade Runner, Ghost in The Shell, William Gibson's books.

A lot of this was technical limitations (there's only so much you can do with UT99 and I've seen people get more out of it elsewhere), some of this was just the game looking a bit ordinary.

DX itself wasn't completely consistent anyway. If they were going to have stuff like corporate offices they should have had that kind of area. Instead the whole game was either slums or industrial.

I guess the section in gay old paris was the closest to trying for that and everything was shut and boarded up anyway.

Lets pretend our cyber-thriller is set in London.

This is where the skyscrapers are:
http://www.freefoto.com/images/31/68/31_68_1---The-City-of-London-The-Square-Mile_web.jpg?&k=The+City+of+London+-+The+Square+Mile

http://www.building.co.uk/Pictures/web/s/f/m/26CLIENTSVINOLY.jpg
(This is a tower going up now, if any of you are Londoners wondering how you missed this)

http://www.skyscrapernews.com/images/pics/803CanaryWharfSkyline2010_pic1.jpg


Then by contrast we've got the less shiny areas:
http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/C1374046-309A-4B41-B093-BCA2A748CE9E/0/TowerHamletsIN37285.jpg

http://www.dezeen.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/image-1.jpg

This is how a lot of cities are. You've got shiny and clean next to less shiny and clean. Where didn't DX take us?

Cripes. DX was a superb game but you people trying to make out that it was inerrant sound pretty silly.

Spyhopping
11th Dec 2008, 17:27
This is how a lot of cities are. You've got shiny and clean next to scuzzy and low rent.

I've seen exactly that in most cities I've been to

A friend of mine lives in the middle of a street in Birmingham which looks like (and is) millionaires row on one end and severely run down on the other, with a gradual gradient between the two.

René
11th Dec 2008, 17:29
Jellybelly, I want to respond to your post in the same manner that I did gamer004's a week or so ago but I can't bring myself to do so. Yes some things are changing and we know that some people such as yourself will not like it. But if I break it down to a basic level, I infer from your first post that you're mostly concerned that DX3 will not "feel" like a DX game. I don't have the ammo to back up my statement right now but DX3 is very much a DX game so I would recommend to relax and wait for additional content to be released. I think you will be pleased. And for the things that change, well, I'm sorry. Try to accept them or move on; that's okay too.

Digitaldruid
11th Dec 2008, 18:46
i guess its best to keep the expectations aside and see how EM treats us to their interpretation of the source material. IMO it's not something worth loosing you sleep over.

GmanPro
11th Dec 2008, 19:04
This has got to be the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard. DX3 is not too futuristic looking. If you still think it is, then you need to go back and compare the images to what was in DX1. http://fc17.deviantart.com/fs13/f/2007/075/6/9/Glove_Slap_by_pro_amateur.gif

Unstoppable
11th Dec 2008, 19:58
Warren Spector the father of Deus Ex himself said in a video while creating Invisible War paraphrased:

"There was so much we wanted to create with Deus Ex but we couldn't. We were happy how well it was received but at the time the technology was very limiting."

Deus Ex was a great game but they would of done much more with it had they the technology of today. I understand where you're coming from, the game does have a more futuristic feel to it than the original.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Change can be a good thing. Plus I bet you there's going to be slums that will be visited that have a very Deus Ex feel. This I judge from the concept art.

Do not be quick to judge the game by it's mere concept art. Give them a chance. February you will get to see the game in action. :thumb:

Laokin
11th Dec 2008, 20:12
I am sorry you feel cheated out of your time. As for your examples, they are apparent in the screenshots. I do not care to post them again here, but I will make some quick references. The futuristic look is apparent in many of the images of Shanghai, such as the look of the subway station, which really looks more like a space station than the subway in Hell's Kitchen or Paris. I should remind you again that the subways in Hell's Kitchen and Paris represent a much later point in time than the - presumably - Shanghai subway we have seen.




If these are misunderstandings, that is good to hear, indeed. Would you care to elaborate?



Is that supposed to justify ignoring the source material? If they call it a Deus Ex game, they should make it a Deus Ex game. That does entail attention to detail when it comes to setting, plot and characters. And really, if 85% of the audience today, which I assume is a completely arbitrary figure, have not played a Deus Ex game, I do not see the point in making this a Deus Ex game as opposed to a new IP.

Now, to address some points made by Van HellSing:



As to my attitude, I can assure you that I am willing to listen. I am also willing to stop listening when I realize that what is being said is baseless and erroneous. My objection is not with graphical advancements being made. It is not with level of detail or polygon-count that I have a problem. I would likely not be willing to play a touted triple A game of 2008 if it looked exactly like Deus Ex. However, I want the depictions of the world to stay consistent. A concrete building is a concrete building whether its appearance is "featureless and low-poly" or Crysis style. It should be possible for the developers to imagine a world similar to our own - and the one in Deus Ex - and introduce better quality graphics without going overboard on the futurism, like they have done.

You also say that the world of Deus Ex 3 is not too futuristic in itself. If you had been open to reading my original post instead of thinking up insults, you would see that I agree with this. The setting may be plausible in and of itself. However, seen in the context of earlier games the setting is clearly too futuristic. And this is exactly my point. The earlier games must be taken into consideration, otherwise they might as well have made an entirely new spy-game.


I am sorry you feel cheated out of your time. As for your examples, they are apparent in the screenshots. I do not care to post them again here, but I will make some quick references. The futuristic look is apparent in many of the images of Shanghai, such as the look of the subway station, which really looks more like a space station than the subway in Hell's Kitchen or Paris. I should remind you again that the subways in Hell's Kitchen and Paris represent a much later point in time than the - presumably - Shanghai subway we have seen.

What is with you people and calling people who like it so far "unintelligent." Intelligence is not about opinion, taste, even what you "know." It is just your ability to problem solve rationally, learn and comprehend.

Now that we have that out of the way, I'd like to point you to your lack of rational thinking. Take note that you compared a subway from Shanghai to one in Paris.

With that in mind, take note of New York City vs. Paris.

There is ultimately almost no similarity between the two. I.E. Just because NY has homeless people, gangs, overwhelming amounts of poverty and graffiti -- DOES NOT mean Paris reflects it the same. Show me one place in Paris that is covered in bullet holes and coroners on a daily basis.

What about places that use levitating monorails? Are those not the "futuristic space station" subways in real life? They are much cleaner, the trains look like they were designed by Nasa... They don't appear to be metal, they are Soft White plastic panel looking "floating" trains.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Shanghai_Transrapid_002.jpg

This is the MagLev in REAL LIFE Shanghai. Where is there a train station like that in NY, FL, Chicago, Texas ect?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/NYC_Subway_R1_100.jpg

Very stark difference with a near amazing amount of contrast. The problem is people like you are arrogant and think the whole entire world looks the same and it simply does not.

Case and Point.

/Rest.


P.S.


I should remind you again that the subways in Hell's Kitchen and Paris represent a much later point in time than the - presumably - Shanghai subway we have seen.

It's unlikely that by 2050 the NYC subway will be completely rebuilt/refinished/refined and converted to a MagLev system. It would take more than 20 years to destroy and build a completely new one using technologies that the NYC metro system has never used before. I.E. It doesn't matter if DX1 had subways and DX3 has Shanghai's super MagLev subway, since that's how exactly it is today and it completely unreasonable to think it wouldn't be by 2050. Especially when following the Gray Death and an Economic Recession.

Just because I felt like saying this -- MagLev's are much more "quiet" then the subways of today as well. You can talk without screaming on them... lol.

spm1138
11th Dec 2008, 20:33
Hah. Check out the Moscow metro too.

http://www.pjlighthouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/moscow-subway-art-dota-seo-08.jpg

http://www.civil.uwaterloo.ca/beg/JohnStraubePhoto/TransSib/Moscow_web/202_Moscow-Subway.JPG

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/94/4494-004-A9F72352.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/3/3935806_8fd07312ca.jpg

http://photos.igougo.com/images/p207883-Moscow-subway.jpg

:D

René
11th Dec 2008, 20:35
February you will get to see the game in action. :thumb:

Um, nope.

Laokin
11th Dec 2008, 20:37
Um, nope.

Um, nope to the release date as quoted by CD-Action? Or, Um nope, there will be no media till after then?

Personally I'd rather know when the media WON'T be released then to check here everyday hoping something new happened.

In other words, If you know we definitely WON'T get a media release by February, March, or even April -- I'm sure many people would like to know so they don't have to feel like it can be any day now.

BTW Rene, I apologize for the PR Rep comment and assure you I have the utmost respect for you and I believe you do such an awesome job. With that said, I think it's only fair that Eidos release some information one way or the other. Either information about the game or information about when we definitely WON'T get an update until sometime after "X" month.

When X Month comes, if your not ready to show it.... just simply state it's not ready yet, and gives us another approximate time frame to check back. As it stands right now, there is almost nothing to discuss here anymore, and as you've seen the "DX3 is teh IMPOSSIBLE" is about the only new threads around here.

Quite frankly it's a waste of time arguing over semantics. If there is nothing to discuss, then there is no reason to be on the "DX3 Discussion Forums." As it stands now, every thread is a "DX 3 is wrong" or "What was it about DX1 again?" ect. Where people INDIRECTLY talk about DX3, but more directly talk about DX1 or something completely made up and irrelevant. I mean, we even have Stereograms!!!!!

(Sorry... I tried, I just couldn't see that "sailboat")

Mall Rats was the ish.

René
11th Dec 2008, 20:39
What did CD-Action say? I meant no "game in action" in February.

Unstoppable
11th Dec 2008, 20:42
What did CD-Action say? I meant no "game in action" in February.

If I'm not mistaken there was going to be a demo for the press. From there I assumed it would then be shown to the public but I guess the public will have to wait to see what the press does with said demonstration. My mistake.

Here we go:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=82033&page=4

http://www.nofrag.com/2008/nov/09/30027/

Demo to the press, press writes about it, fans drool.

imported_van_HellSing
11th Dec 2008, 21:25
I asked one of the CD-Action staffers about the "march 2009" date, and it appears the author of the article had written the date down in his notes as something important. He forgot what it was though once he got to actually writing the article, and assumed it was the release date. So, something is bound to happen in march, but what that is, no clue.

MaxxQ1
11th Dec 2008, 22:19
I'm left wondering if gamer0004 created a new account and is now posting as Jellybelly...might have to put JB on ignore as well, unless I'm mistaken (which I fully admit I may be).

Anyway, that aside, I also resent being called unintelligent simply because I DO like the way this game seems to be going so far. As I've said before, I'm cautiously optimistic, but I'm also leaning closer to having very good vibes about this game.

Now, for Jelly, a couple of clarifications: First, MOST of the images released so far for this game are NOT screenshots, but pre-production art. There's a thread here that has them all posted in high-res, and it's obvious these are tablet paintings.

Second, Jordan A has been to the EM studios and knows MUCH more about the game than anyone outside of EM. I trust the tiny, almost obscure hints he's dropped here and there, because he's SEEN what they're doing/planning, and if he thinks it's going in a good direction, then who am I to argue?

The art direction should really have no bearing on whether or not it's a DX game. Unless you had a Voodoo card 8 years ago (which I did), DX looked like crap. It's still looks like crap today, even with the updated graphics tweaks that allowed it to be used with nVidia cards. It looks a bit better with some of the fan-made graphics updates, but you can only go so far with that. Despite the way the game looked, despite the lousy enemy AI, despite the warning music letting you know when it was safe to come out of hiding, despite the occasionally atrocious voice acting, and despite all the other problems with DX, it is still considered one of the greatest games ever made. Ask yourself why, and you might realize that NONE of that had ANYTHING to do with why you liked it. You'll realize that it was due to the story, the conspiracies, the philosphy, the depth, the backstory that gave you a glimpse of the greater world around your immediate area.

THOSE are what gave it the rabid fanbase it currently enjoys, and if EM can capture even half of that, they will have succeeded. Regen health? To me, not important. Bungee tentacles? Again, not important. Lack of locational damage? Pffft...if you're good enough, who cares? Even though you naysayers claim to NOT want "DX with upgraded graphics", that is exactly the impression you give when you go on about this stuff.

I have no problem with anyone who dislikes a "feature" or set of features, but when they start talking like they KNOW this will be the ruination of all DX, including DX itself, I can't help but roll my eyes and think, "Great, another know-it-all who's already played the game." It's healthy to have a good discussion of differing views of what should and shouldn't be in the game, or our hopes and fears, but DON'T act like your vision is the only correct one, and most definitely DO NOT belittle those of us who disagree with you.

Remember, it's only a game. (I'm gonna catch hell for that comment:lol: )

K^2
11th Dec 2008, 22:44
You found it sophisticated?
Helsing's native language isn't English. Neither is mine, so I had to have a dictionary opened. But I have been speaking English long enough to know that usage of a bunch of words from a SAT verbal section doesn't make a text any more sophisticated than usage of the word "quantum" makes any explanation scientific.

Now, I accept possibility that you did not do this on purpose. If literature is your primary field of study, it is entirely possible that you were seeking deeper semantic differentiation. I assure you, it was lost on most people here, and on many not due to their illiteracy. There are a lot of international people here who have a vocabulary of under 5000 words. The other 5000-10000 you might be wielding they'll only pick up from context, so they won't catch the difference between "tenet" and "principal" or some other common synonym. Your work is for naught, and it only looks like you are showing off.

This is tentatively explained by how society is supposed to be at a high point in 2027, but in the midst of a great depression in 2052. This is an explanation that any intelligent person should characterize as laughable. A world does not go from mundane to futuristic and back to mundane in a fifty year time-span.
I guess I'm not an intelligent person, then. I happen to characterize it as plausible, even if a little stretched. A line between stretching and warping is fine here, but there is no evidence of it being crossed.

Empires can collapse within decades. It has happened before a number of times. Buildings, technology, art styles often crumble along with the political and cultural structures that maintained them.

First of all, observe that it is a natural process for any new technology to result first in very intricate designs, and then rapidly cool down to purely utilitarian. Consider use of arches in Europe from dark edges to late 19th century. First, an arch is used purely as a support structure. It becomes novel, and people start to look for ways to make it more complex. First, it gives rise to Gothic arches, which are more complex to build due to their height and increased load on the key stone. Then to Baroque style arches that are even more difficult to balance. By Rococo the arch is almost complete gone from sight. They are still used, but on global structure, not on individual windows. When a steel beam became affordable, arches were gone from everything but the largest of domes and bridges. Utility of a rectangular window in rectangular room won over.

This process took a few hundred years in Europe, but it was back in the time when buildings were built over decades and intended to stand for centuries. Not to mention that the number of ways to make piece of rock more high tech are rather limited. Now, many skyscrapers are knocked down after a decade because it is more profitable to have something newer, and cheaper to build from scratch than retrofit. And that need to renew is driven primarily by new developments.

If we see a development in high strength materials, like carbon nanotubes, which seems extremely likely to happen within next decade or two, we will see a very rapid rise of oddly shaped buildings. Unreasonably long suspension bridges between skyscrapers. Arches hundreds of meters tall. All the craziness that new methods in architecture bring. Then it will go back to rectangular towers, because they'll still end up the cheapest way to use space. They'll be taller, yes, but they won't look all that different from today's towers. All that will be left are a few oddly shaped buildings left purely as historic sites. The entire cycle can fit within 50 years with room to spare.

GmanPro
11th Dec 2008, 23:08
I didn't think that he sounded sophisticated... just that he was using proper English, as it is meant to be used. Its rather refreshing actually...

Aaaaanyway, I think that all of these futuristic buildings that we have seen in the concept art were specifically selected to go into the press release because they looked more impressive to the casual reader of the magazine. That's all. There will still be plenty of old looking buildings in Deus Ex 3. There has to be.

In twenty years it is entirely plausible that buildings like what we have seen will be around, but not necessarily commonplace. The Shanghai pic looks somewhat believable, although not entirely practical. Keep in mind that those pics are just conceptual. We haven't seen the city up close yet, so maybe EM can pull it off.

imported_van_HellSing
11th Dec 2008, 23:50
I didn't think that he sounded sophisticated... just that he was using proper English, as it is meant to be used. Its rather refreshing actually...

So, does this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TDSLaDZHLo) sound natural to you?

Spyhopping
12th Dec 2008, 00:18
Ergo... vis-*-vis.... concordantly.... more appropriately

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra5-H9ZBS1U

jordan_a
12th Dec 2008, 00:24
I find it puzzling that you anticipate a Deus Ex game if you did not even appreciate the style of the original.
Did I say anything about DX1's style? Come on It was eight years ago and, as you probably don't know:

"There was so much we wanted to create with Deus Ex but we couldn't. We were happy how well it was received but at the time the technology was very limiting." (WS)


By the way some of you guys still don't post their signatures!!! :mad2:

^^

GmanPro
12th Dec 2008, 00:30
Lol, Jellybelly doesn't sound like the Architect.

But I can understand everything that dude says in the movie. It would have helped if he didn't talk in such a dull monotone. If I was reading his speech instead of listening to it I could imagine any pronunciation I wanted to.

So basically what he says is that he couldn't divide by zero, ergo... the One.

K^2
12th Dec 2008, 02:13
So basically what he says is that he couldn't divide by zero, ergo... the One.
If it was that simple, he'd just set it off by an infintessimal amount in imaginary direction, and integrated over the contour. The pole is circumvented, and the integral converges to the correct answer.

GmanPro
12th Dec 2008, 05:41
Oh wow. lol.

How about this:

The matrix is an incredibly complex version of an exponential function, and the One represents the asymptote of that function. Try as he might, the Architect couldn't find any way to get his equations to reach the intended value (metaphor 4 perfection or something). Lol I'm just BS'ing here :D

Jerion
12th Dec 2008, 06:17
Um, Where the hell is this thread heading? :scratch:

GmanPro
12th Dec 2008, 06:19
To wherever the wind may take it! :rasp:

OuttaZyme
12th Dec 2008, 09:42
The art direction should really have no bearing on whether or not it's a DX game.

Absolutely true.


Despite the way the game looked, despite the lousy enemy AI, despite the warning music letting you know when it was safe to come out of hiding, despite the occasionally atrocious voice acting, and despite all the other problems with DX, it is still considered one of the greatest games ever made.

I feel the love, brother. Lemme get an order be praised!


Ask yourself why, and you might realize that NONE of that had ANYTHING to do with why you liked it.

Okay, sure, not many people liked Deus Ex for the things that were wrong with it. I'm still with you.


You'll realize that it was due to the story, the conspiracies, the philosphy, the depth, the backstory that gave you a glimpse of the greater world around your immediate area.

THOSE are what gave it the rabid fanbase it currently enjoys, and if EM can capture even half of that, they will have succeeded.

Whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa just a minute here. Even if you're using the general, unspecific "you" in that sentence, it's a bit high-minded to start defining the reasons why other people liked a game, don't you think?

I enjoyed the philosophical depth of the plot and the backstory in Deus Ex, but I enjoyed the depth of the mechanics even more. To be able to approach a situation in a specific, player-determined manner was a big part of why I still play Deus Ex, because the breadth of choice automatically made me a part of the game's extrinsic fiction.

That is, the fiction that I created while playing the game, making JC the "sniper," or the "silent-sneaker," or the "GEP-gun surgeon/lockpicker." It's one thing to play what many call a "role-playing game" and be forced into several unalterable character choices at the outset, but Deus Ex adapted with the player's choices and very infrequently, if ever, broke the illusion that *I* was the architect of the action, because there was always a solution that fit my style.


Regen health? To me, not important.

To me, it's important for an RPG to give the player control of his avatar's status with the application of choice and action through resource management, not merely the passivity of a regenerating health bar. Every game that I've played thus far with a health regen system has attempted to force a specific style of play (advance, shoot, hide, wait, repeat) based on the developer's idea of how you should proceed, not the player's.

That said, Deus Ex 3 will be its own game, created by people who have their own vision and values, and that's the way it should be; there's nothing to be gained by reactionary criticism. Even if there are a few design choices that have me raising a skeptical, Yahtzee-like eyebrow, I will (like any "intelligent" person ;) ) wait to apply my own subjective enjoyment to the finished product.

spm1138
12th Dec 2008, 12:31
Um, Where the hell is this thread heading? :scratch:

Concordantly, while your first question maybe the most pertinent you may or may not realize it is also the most irrelevant. :cool:

The thread is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent in the programming of the matrix. It is the eventuality of an anomaly which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden deciduously avoided it is not unexpected and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led the thread inexcerably here...

MaxxQ1
12th Dec 2008, 15:19
Whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa just a minute here. Even if you're using the general, unspecific "you" in that sentence, it's a bit high-minded to start defining the reasons why other people liked a game, don't you think?

Yeah, I meant the generalized "you", and I admit I may have gone a bit overboard. Hey, I was writing stream-of-conciousness:rasp:


I enjoyed the philosophical depth of the plot and the backstory in Deus Ex, but I enjoyed the depth of the mechanics even more. To be able to approach a situation in a specific, player-determined manner was a big part of why I still play Deus Ex, because the breadth of choice automatically made me a part of the game's extrinsic fiction.

That is, the fiction that I created while playing the game, making JC the "sniper," or the "silent-sneaker," or the "GEP-gun surgeon/lockpicker." It's one thing to play what many call a "role-playing game" and be forced into several unalterable character choices at the outset, but Deus Ex adapted with the player's choices and very infrequently, if ever, broke the illusion that *I* was the architect of the action, because there was always a solution that fit my style.

The pitfalls of stream-of-conciousness: You (generally speaking) forget to mention the obvious stuff.


To me, it's important for an RPG to give the player control of his avatar's status with the application of choice and action through resource management, not merely the passivity of a regenerating health bar. Every game that I've played thus far with a health regen system has attempted to force a specific style of play (advance, shoot, hide, wait, repeat) based on the developer's idea of how you should proceed, not the player's.

No problem. Like I said, TO ME, it's not important. I understand where you're coming from and have no problem with that. I just want to make sure that people understand that I'm NOT defending the decision to use auto-heal/health regen, but I'm also not attacking it.


That said, Deus Ex 3 will be its own game, created by people who have their own vision and values, and that's the way it should be; there's nothing to be gained by reactionary criticism. Even if there are a few design choices that have me raising a skeptical, Yahtzee-like eyebrow, I will (like any "intelligent" person ;) ) wait to apply my own subjective enjoyment to the finished product.

Agreed. Which is why I :rolleyes: when people start getting ridiculous about their dislike of some aspect or other.

gamer0004
12th Dec 2008, 18:58
This has got to be the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard. DX3 is not too futuristic looking. If you still think it is, then you need to go back and compare the images to what was in DX1. http://fc17.deviantart.com/fs13/f/2007/075/6/9/Glove_Slap_by_pro_amateur.gif

I'm glad you at least back up that remark with some good "evidence" :hmm:
So, what did we see in Deus Ex. No idea? Well, maybe some normal concrete buildings? Buildings made to be cheap and up to the job at the same time? Buildings (or houses) not actually designed to be depressing? A world that looks still a lot like the one in which we live nowadays?

I agree with you that DX3 does not really "futuristic", because if it would look "futuristic" that would mean that at some point in the future the world would look like that. And it won't, ever.


I'm left wondering if gamer0004 created a new account and is now posting as Jellybelly...might have to put JB on ignore as well, unless I'm mistaken (which I fully admit I may be).


Nope, I'm alive and kickin'. I do agree with all his points though.

What I think is not... nice, is that when people start saying they don't like the game so far, others keep telling them that they may not say that "because we still don't know" (or, in your case, "they start talking like they KNOW this will be the ruination" which is bad in your mind). People can say they think the art is awesome, but others may not say that it looks like crap and that that art ALONE will ruin THE WHOLE GAME for them. I don't care whether you like it, whether you think it will not destory Deus Ex, that you don't think the art was what Deus Ex made great, it DOES MATTER FOR ME. And you have nothing to do with that. If you don't care, that's great for you, but it doesn't make me feel any better about this game.
Thank you.

GmanPro
12th Dec 2008, 19:07
Dude, gamer0004, you are just plain wierd.

You keep saying that the buildings look "dark and depressing." I just don't see that. That is your opinion, so don't state it as a fact. I've said it before and I'll say it again. DX1 never took us to Montreal or Shanghai, or Detroit. Infact, even the cities that DX1 did take us to were limited to just street level slums. So there is no contradiction here.

Yargo
12th Dec 2008, 19:11
To wherever the wind may take it! :rasp:

"Cabin fever aahhhhh....."

Muppet Treasure Island
5 Internets to anyone who got that before looking at the spoiler tag :D

GmanPro
12th Dec 2008, 19:14
^^Lol. I'm surprised that anyone remembered that movie. :D

5 internets for me!!

Spyhopping
12th Dec 2008, 19:19
The next person who uses the phrase "dark and depressing" -again- gets minus 5 internets

Yargo
12th Dec 2008, 19:23
The next person who uses the phrase "dark and depressing" -again- gets minus 5 internets

I find your obsession with the phrase mentioned above very depressing and dark. :D

GmanPro
12th Dec 2008, 19:24
^^Ooo, the ol' switch-a-roo. Touche :thumb:

Jerion
13th Dec 2008, 00:57
"Bright and Cheering". :rasp:

Spiffmeister
14th Dec 2008, 07:18
Is that supposed to justify ignoring the source material? If they call it a Deus Ex game, they should make it a Deus Ex game.

Does that mean Far Cry 2 should of been called something else because it didn't have mutated monkeys and wasn't set on a tropical island like the original?



I agree with you that DX3 does not really "futuristic", because if it would look "futuristic" that would mean that at some point in the future the world would look like that. And it won't, ever.

Huh?

Necros
14th Dec 2008, 08:45
Empires can collapse within decades. It has happened before a number of times. Buildings, technology, art styles often crumble along with the political and cultural structures that maintained them.
This is so true. My country changed a hell of a lot too in the past two decades. There was a major change in the late '80s in culture/politics and I've seen it personally what kind of effect that has. I've been to Budapest, the capitol a couple of times, first in the early '90s. It looked much like the NYC from DX1, then a few years later it already felt a lot different. By now, a big part of the city has advanced further. And this is a poor, small country, I can imagine a wealthier one changing a lot faster, more dramatically. But we also have to remember that it's not true for the whole city, there are still unchanged areas (or if there were changes, they were for the worse - like the residential areas that are in terrible shape, a few weeks ago there was a news story about an old lady who died because the stairs collapsed in her apartment building).

So yeah, saying that DX3 is too futuristic is just silly...

edit: Some guys mentioned the Deus Ex post mortem before, here's an interesting bit from it (I'm reading throught the whole thing again):
"There were also challenges on the art side. Deus Ex suffered dramatically because for over a year, the artists "on the team" worked not for me or for the project, but for an art director in Ion Storm's Dallas office. ... Eventually I got my way, and things got much better on the art front once the artists were officially part of the Deus Ex team. Still, I can only imagine how Deus Ex might have looked if we'd been one big happy team, including the artists, from the start."

NK007
14th Dec 2008, 14:32
If it LOOKS more futuristic then I guess it's ok... but if there things like "hacking into people's brains" like there is in another thread, then it gets stupid, or an auto-heal-always-on biomod... the first game you had to pay for the healing, and in the 2nd you could only hack into robots, which I think was too overpowered to begin with, and now hacking into people's brains?!

Anyway I absolutely love the whole renaissance theme going on, I think it's going to be enough in the flavor of a "new industrial revolution" to keep things pretty enough and still not too laser-spacey.

Jerion
14th Dec 2008, 14:37
Dude, I there isn't any "brain hacking". That's pure speculation.

gamer0004
14th Dec 2008, 14:54
Dude, gamer0004, you are just plain wierd.

You keep saying that the buildings look "dark and depressing." I just don't see that. That is your opinion, so don't state it as a fact. I've said it before and I'll say it again. DX1 never took us to Montreal or Shanghai, or Detroit. Infact, even the cities that DX1 did take us to were limited to just street level slums. So there is no contradiction here.

It can't be a fact, so don't try to deal with it as one.

NK007
14th Dec 2008, 15:06
Dude, I there isn't any "brain hacking". That's pure speculation.

I know that it's currently not confirmed, but if fans can suggest that, who knows what the dev team is brainstorming?

K^2
14th Dec 2008, 15:42
who knows what the dev team is brainstorming?
I do. I totally brain-hacked them.

Edit: Somehow, that just sounds wrong.

NK007
14th Dec 2008, 17:47
I hope you're right. Seems to me like mechanical augmentations should augment the body physically, not produce Force powers.

spm1138
14th Dec 2008, 18:27
Why?

As soon as the brain has computer parts in, it opens up the possibility.

It could be interesting if done right.

Jerion
14th Dec 2008, 18:29
While it could get interesting, I suspect it would be limited to either silent takedown or information retrieval; maybe have separate but mutually exclusive augs for each.

NK007
14th Dec 2008, 18:33
Why?

As soon as the brain has computer parts in, it opens up the possibility.

It could be interesting if done right.

Because how would you determine whose brain has computer parts and is connected to the internet lol? And even then would you hack via bluetooth? Even then it cheapens the game IMO when you can hack into an MiB or equivalent, IMO.

spm1138
14th Dec 2008, 19:40
Having a cyborgised brain without connectivity would be a bit of waste of one, no? :D

Maybe it could be a variety of silent takedown. Get close to someone, tackle them, stick a remote connection in their brain socket.

Since you don't know if there'll be MiBs, brain hacking or how it would work if there was you have no idea if it would be "cheap" or not.

NK007
14th Dec 2008, 19:45
I don't know, I just view it as too magicky and SW-ey for the DX universe.

spm1138
14th Dec 2008, 20:16
The DX universe where you can see and shoot through walls, astral project and leap tall buildings in a single bound? :D

i_is_a_moose
14th Dec 2008, 20:38
So let's Recap... what do we know about DX3? I'd say roughly, 30% of the total info. (I'm being generous, here)
Have we seen the maps? no, we have seen the concept art which, should you visit Planet Deus Ex, and see their limited supply of DX1 concept art, there is a huge disparity between what was intended, and what was released.

My second point is: give them some time. As a chef, I know to wait, and not judge my food while it's still cooking, and we should lend our frinds at Eidos Montreal a modicum of respect, and wait until they're ready to release to pass judgement. Give EM some time, and even a minute vote of confidence, and I'm willing to bet the finished product will rip our faces off.

Jellybelly, I'd like to say that you've one off completely half-cocked on this whole self-pitying rant. in assuming the defenive; I may be wrong, and I'm willing to accept this, I love DX, the game shaped my views of gaming and industry, and if DX3 works, it will ultimately vindicate the franchise, if not, the world will continue to turn.

NK007
14th Dec 2008, 20:46
The DX universe where you can see and shoot through walls, astral project and leap tall buildings in a single bound? :D

Where can you astrally project in the game?

spm1138
14th Dec 2008, 21:12
Spy drone?

Jerion
14th Dec 2008, 21:14
^^ That and watching yourself through security cameras.


So let's Recap... what do we know about DX3? I'd say roughly, 30% of the total info. (I'm being generous, here)
Have we seen the maps? no, we have seen the concept art which, should you visit Planet Deus Ex, and see their limited supply of DX1 concept art, there is a huge disparity between what was intended, and what was released.

My second point is: give them some time. As a chef, I know to wait, and not judge my food while it's still cooking, and we should lend our frinds at Eidos Montreal a modicum of respect, and wait until they're ready to release to pass judgement. Give EM some time, and even a minute vote of confidence, and I'm willing to bet the finished product will rip our faces off.

Jellybelly, I'd like to say that you've one off completely half-cocked on this whole self-pitying rant. in assuming the defenive; I may be wrong, and I'm willing to accept this, I love DX, the game shaped my views of gaming and industry, and if DX3 works, it will ultimately vindicate the franchise, if not, the world will continue to turn.

We have seen some old screenshots along with the concept art, but we haven't seen the art for those screenshots so we really can't compare. The only example I can think of where we have both concept art and a screenshot of the same area is that lab.

Laokin
14th Dec 2008, 22:36
It can't be a fact, so don't try to deal with it as one.

Are you just playing devils advocate? Or are you really just a jerk? If you don't like the game and your going to antagonize an argument based on an opinion, your only purpose is to "bother" people. That is all you have done since you got here... and if that's all your going to continue to do, why come here at all?

Your like that anti-social know it all nerd trying to blend in at a popular party. It just doesn't work, you're a sore thumb and most importantly.... nobody cares about your "facts" (opinions).

Please stop instigating off topic arguments. If it's not productive, you probably should just keep to your self.

NK007
14th Dec 2008, 23:19
Spy drone?
Haha I guess :nut:

Come on let me think its realistic, I wanted to go to Halloween as JC Denton.. bet I'd be arrested by the police thinking the unibomber is back.

K^2
15th Dec 2008, 00:26
Come on let me think its realistic, I wanted to go to Halloween as JC Denton.. bet I'd be arrested by the police thinking the unibomber is back.
As long as you don't go to Ladies' restroom, you'll be fine.

gamer0004
15th Dec 2008, 18:26
Are you just playing devils advocate? Or are you really just a jerk? If you don't like the game and your going to antagonize an argument based on an opinion, your only purpose is to "bother" people. That is all you have done since you got here... and if that's all your going to continue to do, why come here at all?

Your like that anti-social know it all nerd trying to blend in at a popular party. It just doesn't work, you're a sore thumb and most importantly.... nobody cares about your "facts" (opinions).

Please stop instigating off topic arguments. If it's not productive, you probably should just keep to your self.

What I was trying to say is that I'm not trying to present my opinion as facts, because they can't be. I just can't be bothered, like most people, to write it down fully. However, when opinions differ some people start whining about people "presenting opinions like facts". well, they can't be the same, so how can you read them as being stated as facts? Nothing is ugly or beautiful. It looks ugly or beautiful. Writing "I think" and "I find" all the time is unnecesarry. Except for those few who are apparently unable to note the difference...

Have you ever noticed that nearly every "argument" here is in fact an opinion? "It looks awesome" "beautiful" "spectacular" and "stunning", which are accepted by you, aren't exactly facts either. And how is it possible to judge a game based on facts alone? :scratch: Are you a computer or something?

I let you say you love the game so far, why can't I say I hate it?

jordan_a
15th Dec 2008, 19:58
Hopefully you can say you hate what has been done so far.

We're merely pointing out the fact that so far there can be no strong argument since we don't know much. As such the only sentence we can say on all subjects is "I think/find/assume".

The issue with your statement is that you are making facts out of nothing!

GmanPro
15th Dec 2008, 22:08
Exactly. Just say that you *think* DX3 is dark and depressing, and not that it *is*.

gamer0004
16th Dec 2008, 10:14
Exactly. Just say that you *think* DX3 is dark and depressing, and not that it *is*.

We will never know... It will always be an opinion. And the game has already been ruined for me. No matter how great the rest (everything that hasn't been released yet) will be, this game cannot be any good for me, no matter what. I hate renaissance style, of which we can be very sure that it will make it to the final game as it is the main "imporvement" of which EM is very proud, and I hate all the Gears of War/Star Wars/Ghost in the Shell/"Doom 4"*/"Metal Gear"/"Duke Nukem"/"UT2003"/"Team Fortress 2"/"generic"-elements in this game. The lack of them was what made DX so great for me. It was the first game or movie EVER that was both set in the future and believable.

(*these are some random remarks as a reaction on the released screenshots).

spm1138
16th Dec 2008, 10:28
Ghost in the Shell

That's like saying you liked Gears of War but hated Aliens. IN MY OPINION.

DX borrowed visual elements, concepts, plot points and aug ideas.

Sure, it reframed them in a more western sci-fi context* making everything more bleak and dystopian but they were definitely there.

* and was using UT99 instead of 2008 Crystal Dynamics engine.

Necros
16th Dec 2008, 12:13
So let's Recap... what do we know about DX3? I'd say roughly, 30% of the total info. (I'm being generous, here)
Very. ;) I think it's about 10% or less. We do know a couple of things but without details.

K^2
16th Dec 2008, 12:30
What you guys know now is precisely 0% of all information about DX3. It is the same 0% that you'll know after the game is released. And if you think otherwise, I'd like you to answer the following question once the game is released: How does the lighting in the 3rd level compare to the sunrises on the 4th planet of the Tau Cetus system.

The amount of useful information might be limited, but nobody on this board, myself included, would be capable of giving even a rough estimate for the actual quantities involved. Labels like XX% are absolutely meaningless here.

Psychopomp
18th Dec 2008, 13:31
[QUOTE=gamer0004;914992] Gears of War/Star Wars/Ghost in the Shell/"Doom 4"*/"Metal Gear"/"Duke Nukem"/"UT2003"/"TEAM FORTRESS 2"/"generic"-elements in this game. QUOTE]

AND WHAT, PRAY TELL, IS SO BAD ABOUT TEAM FORTRESS 2?

If you say the art style, so help me god...

I'll type a very angry post, because this is the internet. I am powerless all the way behind this keyboard.

Oh, right. [Insert rejection of OP's highly unintelligent viewpoint here]

LatwPIAT
18th Dec 2008, 14:26
Ghost in the Shell [...] The lack of them was what made DX so great for me.

Sooooo...

The fact that Helios dialouge is basically a shortened version of Project 2501/the Puppetmaster dialouge from Ghost in the Shell is what you define as a lack.

Sure, I'll grant you that Deus Ex is highly original, and doesn't betray itself to the works it references, but I think that claiming a lack of GitS elements is pulling it too far.

(There are several other references to GitS in DX also. I just can't remember all of them. Navarre and Hermann are fairly obvious.)

spm1138
18th Dec 2008, 15:25
Weapons - The stealth pistol and assault rifle are pure Seburo.

http://www.popularairsoft.com/rs-wiki-seburo
http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/5498/gits7pv7.jpg

Mecha - spider bots, security walkers, big spider bots. All of these show up plenty.

UNATCO - Section 9 aren't unproblematically the good guys. They are a government sponsored black ops unit. They only come under the heading of "public security" to make them technically a police unit and avoid Japan being in the politically icky situation of having a military special forces unit running around doing wet work.

This isn't really covered in the first film (apart from the opening scene I suppose) but elsewhere we see them doing assassinations (even on government ministers), black bag ops, very enhanced interrogations and generally not being at all mindful of people's civil rights. Familiar, yes?

Collectivism vs. individualism is vaguely a theme there. The Major and Batou both express the viewpoint that rights sometimes come second to practical necessity at least a couple of times in the manga.
This does come up in Deus Ex, doesn't it?

UNATCO are kind of Section 9 gone bad. Instead of Aramaki's cast iron sense of public duty and willingness to politic against corrupt officials you've got Manderley. I guess to be fair he probably thinks he is doing the right thing too.

gamer0004
18th Dec 2008, 18:16
[QUOTE=gamer0004;914992] Gears of War/Star Wars/Ghost in the Shell/"Doom 4"*/"Metal Gear"/"Duke Nukem"/"UT2003"/"TEAM FORTRESS 2"/"generic"-elements in this game. QUOTE]

AND WHAT, PRAY TELL, IS SO BAD ABOUT TEAM FORTRESS 2?

If you say the art style, so help me god...

I'll type a very angry post, because this is the internet. I am powerless all the way behind this keyboard.

Oh, right. [Insert rejection of OP's highly unintelligent viewpoint here]

No, I love the look of TF2. But it wouldn't be great for Deus Ex, would it? It was probably referiing to the oversized weapons and over-the-top character named Barret...


Sooooo...

The fact that Helios dialouge is basically a shortened version of Project 2501/the Puppetmaster dialouge from Ghost in the Shell is what you define as a lack.

Sure, I'll grant you that Deus Ex is highly original, and doesn't betray itself to the works it references, but I think that claiming a lack of GitS elements is pulling it too far.

(There are several other references to GitS in DX also. I just can't remember all of them. Navarre and Hermann are fairly obvious.)

I know DX combined many elements of GitS and Blade Runner, but they did not copy its style (thank god). That's what I meant - it lacked certain things of GitS which would have made the game horrible for me :)


Weapons - The stealth pistol and assault rifle are pure Seburo.

http://www.popularairsoft.com/rs-wiki-seburo
http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/5498/gits7pv7.jpg

Mecha - spider bots, security walkers, big spider bots. All of these show up plenty.

UNATCO - Section 9 aren't unproblematically the good guys. They are a government sponsored black ops unit. They only come under the heading of "public security" to make them technically a police unit and avoid Japan being in the politically icky situation of having a military special forces unit running around doing wet work.

This isn't really covered in the first film (apart from the opening scene I suppose) but elsewhere we see them doing assassinations (even on government ministers), black bag ops, very enhanced interrogations and generally not being at all mindful of people's civil rights. Familiar, yes?

Collectivism vs. individualism is vaguely a theme there. The Major and Batou both express the viewpoint that rights sometimes come second to practical necessity at least a couple of times in the manga.
This does come up in Deus Ex, doesn't it?

UNATCO are kind of Section 9 gone bad. Instead of Aramaki's cast iron sense of public duty and willingness to politic against corrupt officials you've got Manderley. I guess to be fair he probably thinks he is doing the right thing too.

Some parts may have looked like GitS, but they still looked fine. There is just something with GitS which I don't like. It's hard to describe, but I just can't stand it. It's pushing too hard to look futuristic or cool or cyberpunk.

Of course I liked the themes of Deus Ex. I loved every aspect of DX (except the superfreighter map). What I meant is that the things that DX lacked but were present in GitS were the ones I don't like, and therefore I hoped DX3 would not get any more inspiration from those kind of movies than DX. But it looks like it did.

K^2
18th Dec 2008, 18:27
over-the-top character named Barret...
If over-the-top characters would make for a bad game, Deus Ex would be among the worst. The entire game looks like it is put on by the actors of the local drama club. And the props look appropriate as well. Guns from a toy store, robots from cardboard, and holograms done by a cheap mirror trick.

But that was part of the game's charm.

I am worried about a lot of directions that DX3 seems to be taking, but I think it would be unfair not to give guys at EM a benefit of the doubt until we see some gameplay video. If you'd be willing to do that, people would not be so hard on you.

spm1138
18th Dec 2008, 18:30
Some parts may have looked like GitS, but they still looked fine. There is just something with GitS which I don't like. It's hard to describe, but I just can't stand it. It's pushing too hard to look futuristic or cool or cyberpunk.

What about it?

The design or the way the cyborgs moved?

I don't think I've seen anything under the label GITS that I didn't dig.

I love Masamune Shirow's ideas, designs and art (between Appleseed and Ghost In The Shell in manga form you've got most of what made it to screen as GITS).
Mamoru Oshii makes a stylish picture too.
The TV show especially is awesome. Season 2 is about the best adaptation of anything Masamune Shirow evar done.

I couldn't really see how they could have done it differently. I suppose the movies are a bit ponderous (they feel like a tour of his bookshelf at times), but that's just Mamoru Oshii for you.

Compared to Blade Runner etc. Japanese sci fi often is quite optimistic but that makes a nice change imo. People are always people.

Dunno how CP it is but it seems to me to form a continuum with the western stuff and to contain several classics which deserve looking at right next to the western stuff.

Psychopomp
19th Dec 2008, 06:01
[QUOTE=Psychopomp;916092]

No, I love the look of TF2. But it wouldn't be great for Deus Ex, would it? It was probably referiing to the oversized weapons and over-the-top character named Barret...



1.OKAY, THEN! I had just gotten off a server where some 10-year old insecure with his own masculinity hopped on, played for five minutes, then said "**** this cartoon ****, Halo 3's way better."

Me, along with the rest of the server, went into a nerd-rage.

2.As for Barret: Believe it or not, there are people like that in real life. Hell, you could even explain why Barret is the way he is.
Simply put, he's full of himself. He probably was before the augmentations, and the newfound ability to have a shotgun in his arm just makes him feel even more badass. Afterall, how many teenage fantasies are being satisfied with this new found power? People DO go overboard.
Just look at Hair Metal.

I am, of course, assuming that he isn't over-the-top for the sake of being over-the-top; AND this is Deus Ex, so I'm probably wrong.

LatwPIAT
19th Dec 2008, 10:37
Weapons - The stealth pistol and assault rifle are pure Seburo.

http://www.popularairsoft.com/rs-wiki-seburo
http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/5498/gits7pv7.jpg

Fun fact: The Seburo C-X, which the Stealth Pistol is based off, doesn't appear in GitS. It appears in Appleseed, also by Shirow. (It would later make a cameo appearance in GitS2.)


Mecha - spider bots, security walkers, big spider bots. All of these show up plenty.

Ah, the spider bots. Didn't think of them.


UNATCO - Section 9 aren't unproblematically the good guys. They are a government sponsored black ops unit. They only come under the heading of "public security" to make them technically a police unit and avoid Japan being in the politically icky situation of having a military special forces unit running around doing wet work.

In the manga they're specifically refferred to as a Hostage Rescue Unit to avoid the stigma of being a government sponsored dath squad. I really don't consider this a strong reference, both because UNATCO was so different from Section 9, and because cloak and dagger organizations are a staple of espionage fiction.


This isn't really covered in the first film (apart from the opening scene I suppose) but elsewhere we see them doing assassinations (even on government ministers), black bag ops, very enhanced interrogations and generally not being at all mindful of people's civil rights. Familiar, yes?

"You must be familiar with dental torture, although I guess you've never been on the recieveing end..." and "You were tortured by "the Dentist" weren't you." It's a small shock when you realize exactly how far they are willing to go for their own causes. I mean, stealing cars was unexpected, torturing prisoners and shooting hostages in their legs? Wha..?

Again, UNATCO didn't feel like this because either I did the bad stuff, such as stealing, so it was my fault, or Simons did it, and he was the villian anyhow. I guess you could use the 747 as an example, but again I feel it's more a staple of espionage fiction than a direct reference to GitS.


Collectivism vs. individualism is vaguely a theme there. The Major and Batou both express the viewpoint that rights sometimes come second to practical necessity at least a couple of times in the manga.
This does come up in Deus Ex, doesn't it?

Of course. Then again most semi-cynic storylines address the subject of whether the individual's rights comes before or after the rights of the population. I could just as well say that's a Watchmen reference.


UNATCO are kind of Section 9 gone bad. Instead of Aramaki's cast iron sense of public duty and willingness to politic against corrupt officials you've got Manderley. I guess to be fair he probably thinks he is doing the right thing too.
Again, UNATCO's a cloack-and-dagger organization in a espionage-heavy piece of fiction. Corrupt leaders is what I expect. Then again, there is a visual similarity between Manderly and Aramaki, and Shirow is pretty much the only person to have wirtten about a cyberpunk anti-terrorist organization, so I guess the chance it was inspired by GitS increases exponential by that fact. What we really should do I look up the "Shooter" and "Troubleshooter" design documents at Gameasutra and see if "working for the police" was part of the original script. (When it wasn't cyberpunk, just a generic action setting.)

If you want a really heavily GitS-inspired game, check out the Bungie game "ONI." It was set in Japan, modeled in the generic anime style, and featured a purple-haired (Oddly, this was before Stand Alone Complex was released) japanese girl/woman who worked for a japanese anti-terrorist organization, led by an old, semi-bald, grey-haired man. Oddly, Konoko, which the main character was called, also wore a leather jacket quite a few times, something that has not yet popped in GitS. Bizzare.

NK007
19th Dec 2008, 13:03
^
I agree, that, in even though I didn't see GitS (too Japanese for me), besides that the stealth pistol and assault rifle don't really resemble each other, but apart from that, all those story elements are in pretty much every thriller\conspiracy book\story\prose\whatever that respects itself.

I'm glad there isn't much anime influence in DX. Anime sucks.

spm1138
19th Dec 2008, 14:37
Fun fact: The Seburo C-X, which the Stealth Pistol is based off, doesn't appear in GitS. It appears in Appleseed, also by Shirow. (It would later make a cameo appearance in GitS2.)

I figured it was pretty similar to one of the SMGs also. The C25A, I think. It's a P90-alike with the weird under-grip magazine and it's pretty small.

The doll at the start had stolen the other model with a brass catcher attached from the policeman?

UNATCO/S9 isn't a 1-1 thing but between Anna, Gunther, Manderley and the general mirror universe goatee-beard version of the S9's activities (paramilitary police unit) it's a definite pattern. Sure, it's S9 working for an evil conspiracy. I guess GITS is in no way immune from outside influences but with the visual similarities someone has obviously seen it.


In the manga they're specifically refferred to as a Hostage Rescue Unit to avoid the stigma of being a government sponsored dath squad.

Also don't forget it's Japan. Their military is supposed to be a SDF only.


I didn't see GitS.

Fix'd. And by the time you've edited down to this you could probably save yourself the bother of hitting "Submit" <3

NK007
19th Dec 2008, 16:22
Lol it's called an opinion a-hole. I started seeing it but it was too ridiculous that I couldn't stomach that... excrement... and stopped watching it altogether.

spm1138
19th Dec 2008, 16:26
Not liking it is fine. Not watching it makes you a tad underqualified to say what is or is not like it though. In my opinion.

NK007
19th Dec 2008, 16:42
So 'neways I was watching it and it sucked so I didn't watch it.

GmanPro
19th Dec 2008, 16:43
I watched it. It was cool imo. Definitely not in the same vein as DX, but still way better than half the anime crap you see out there. ;)

LatwPIAT
19th Dec 2008, 18:12
I figured it was pretty similar to one of the SMGs also. The C25A, I think. It's a P90-alike with the weird under-grip magazine and it's pretty small.

The doll at the start had stolen the other model with a brass catcher attached from the policeman?


Oh, sorry, I meant GitS2: Man/Machine Interface. The C-X appears on a table in the third or fourth volume. If you haven't read GitS2:M/MI, be warned: It's nothing like GitS at all. No police, little action, one gunfight. If you're not reading it for the philosophy, you might as well read vol. 8 of GitS while drunk.


I agree, that, in even though I didn't see GitS (too Japanese for me), Wha..? Too Japanese? Really? Intresting. I always found it fairly culturaly neutral. (Though I've heard certain episodes annoy US citizens because the villains are from the CIA.)

Anime sucks.
You're condeming an entire media? That's like saying "Books sucks." (Or more specifically: "All books from Belgium sucks.")

I started seeing it but it was too ridiculous that I couldn't stomach that... excrement... and stopped watching it altogether.
Although if that is your opinion on GitS I can understand why you would think anime in general sucks.


I watched it. It was cool imo. Definitely not in the same vein as DX, but still way better than half the anime crap you see out there. ;)

I love you.

90% of everything is crap. Sci-fi author Sturgeon said that at a sci-fi convention once, and I wholehartedly agree. Sure, you might find the occational good fanfic, but most are badly written. There are quite a few excellent webcomics out there, but most are things I wouldn't read even if they were free. (Wait a minute...) Novels? You wouldn't believe the stuff they hail as good today! Movies? TV Shows? Same deal. Luckily, be abbiding to this philosophy you can save loads of money because you almsot never buy anything at all.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand.
What was the original topic? Oh yeah! Influences from other media upon Deus Ex! Or something.

So, I read an interview with the Fallout 3 developer some time ago, and I was rather annoyed at something he said. He said that they had tried to modernize the gameplay to new and better level or something. Now I haven't played FO3, but hear me out on this one. He basically said that turn-based, isometric RPGs weren't good enough. What. The. Ztype? That's like condeming an entire genre with the reasoning "It's bad." I can't think of any genre that has been completely abandoned. Even tetris, pong and other abstract games still lives on. Peggle Extreme by PopCap Games is an excellent example of this. Adventure games arise from their slumber from time to time, and Mystery of Time and Space and Crimson Room are extremely popular. Stealth games even. The last year I can think of, well, one stealth game. (OK, so stealth gets by on life support. Still...)

I guess I see it the same way with Deus Ex 3. The idea of mixing in gameplay elements that would be out of place in an Action/Stealth RPGSFPS with Adventure Elements (A/SRPGFPSwAE) because it is "new" feels odd. Now, I'm can't speak for any group but myself, but how many of us would have problems with the implementation of a hand-to-hand system in a DX sequel? Say, the ability to toss my opponent to the ground, or grab him in chokehold and use him as a human shield.

Then take the most controversial elements they added/wanted to add: Regenerating health. Or one that was added: Universal Ammo.

I guess the most important thing to remember with sequels (and prequels, and side-quels, and alternate-universe-quels) is that you should basically take the basic premise, the limits and avaliabilities you've placed upon yourself and make something completely new.

Someone once told me the reason Aliens was such a good sequel to Alien was because they didn't remake Alien, even though the premise of there being Xenomorphs running around was the same. (You mileage might vary on that though.)

NK007
19th Dec 2008, 19:21
I AM condeming a whole media, I guess, because even the Devil May Cry anime, based on my favorite game (DMC is my favorite, yet DX is the best I played) had too many elements that were wierd and out of place for me. A friend recommended GitS, and another recommended Death Note and I tried watching both and suffered. Besides, I think I can, my opinion is obviously right (har-har!).

Either way, I don't think it's the implementation of H2H combat or auto-regen that people hate about the game. In H2H combat, the main concern, at least mine, is how good it will be implemented: will there be collision detection problems, will it be well balanced in the game, will there be enough variety to keep me interested, etc. If you add more stuff, usually it doesn't damage the product, but if you add it in a bad way - then it does. Anyway, if they can put it in and it will be good - no problem.

As for uni-ammo and auto-regen, they simply take a lot of elements out of the game: the suspense of having low health before a tough encounter, the feeling of being nearly-dead, the thrill of surviving a fight with a low health bar, the need for looking for different kinds of ammo, the pseudo-realism and logic the game is trying to produce, etc.

It's a long list, you see.

Radox Redux
19th Dec 2008, 20:15
Even Deus Ex 1 was more overstated than GitS, saying it isn't a realistic version of the future doesn't really fit for me. True, DX's was definitely more in depth, but that's teh advantage of a video game.

And universally condemning any medium or style is ultimatly setting yourself up to be proven wrong.

spm1138
20th Dec 2008, 11:54
Oh, sorry, I meant GitS2: Man/Machine Interface.

I own it. I've read it, even sober. I couldn't tell you exactly what happens in any of it, beyond lots of female cyborgs taking their clothes off and Shirow drawing lots of cameltoes.

I thought he'd taken the whole "post-human entity no longer tied to a single body" a little too far because there were no longer human beings to relate to.

LatwPIAT
20th Dec 2008, 12:16
I own it. I've read it, even sober. I couldn't tell you exactly what happens in any of it, beyond lots of female cyborgs taking their clothes off and Shirow drawing lots of cameltoes.

I thought he'd taken the whole "post-human entity no longer tied to a single body" a little too far because there were no longer human beings to relate to.
From what I'm able to discern, when Motoko Kusanagi and the Puppetmaster merged, they created a whole bunch of "children," of which the main character, Motoko Aramaki (Motoko 11) is one. Then she runs into a plot by one of the other Motokos to network human brains together, and discovers the existence of all the other children, all of whom seemingly want to create new, perfect life-forms. She then joins up with the original Motoko/Puppetmaster (Or something...) in a space station to make a silicon-based lifeform. (Or something...)

For some odd and inexplicable reason I thought GitS1.5: Human Error Processor to be much better.

Jester_Grout
18th May 2009, 22:37
on track with the original posters inquiry

keep in mind that as human fiction attempts a leap forward, in order to approximate a projection of things that-will-be, it will be faced with an inumerable amount of obstacles

we're here reaching a consensus on who's the greatest leaper

that being said, and irrespective of "tools" available back when the first installment was made, I fail to understand how a more appropriate depiction of a future world, with more lavishsly imagined and implemented environment would be classified as a disrespect to the "genre"

the point that we know far to little to reach a conclusion is becoming dull by now, so what I would like to point out, and without the intention of generalizing, is that I believe a main narrative characteristic in Deus Ex which rendered it distinguished in its field and I'd like it to be present in DX3 too, is that, you know what, not everything does actually evolve the way you wanted and imagined

a world that most of the community likes to refer to as a dystopia

gamer0004
19th May 2009, 13:36
on track with the original posters inquiry

keep in mind that as human fiction attempts a leap forward, in order to approximate a projection of things that-will-be, it will be faced with an inumerable amount of obstacles

we're here reaching a consensus on who's the greatest leaper

that being said, and irrespective of "tools" available back when the first installment was made, I fail to understand how a more appropriate depiction of a future world, with more lavishsly imagined and implemented environment would be classified as a disrespect to the "genre"

the point that we know far to little to reach a conclusion is becoming dull by now, so what I would like to point out, and without the intention of generalizing, is that I believe a main narrative characteristic in Deus Ex which rendered it distinguished in its field and I'd like it to be present in DX3 too, is that, you know what, not everything does actually evolve the way you wanted and imagined

a world that most of the community likes to refer to as a dystopia

The problem is that the world of DX still is very credible - I wouldn't be surprised at all if the world looked like that in 50 years. The world of DX3 isn't. It's just designed to look "awesome", because they think they know better than Ion Storm what's important in a game (awesomeness vs. realism and immersion), and therefore, while a prequel should be just that, a prequel, decide to ignore DX because they think they can do a better job.
If they think they can, they should build their own franchise.

Jester_Grout
19th May 2009, 14:03
by what criterion do you judge the world of the original DX as consistent with what it might be in 50 years?
I don't think every one of us has the same standards in the way he estimates how the world will be

and I think a few already made this point, but a discussion that attempts to link actual progression with calendar progression, is fruitless

I'm more concerned on the creative force being unhindered by such petty restrictions, the "need" of succeeding that all sequels carry by definition, always was a prime reason for the quite opposite

while the content is shaping, I think they will be after community feedback documenting what is more or less "deusexesque" and judging how and if it can be implemented in what they imagined

but I don't care if it bares or bares not the name, that means less than nothing to me, in the way that the first game is irreplacable

this by no means let my hopes down on DX3 being a good game, I'm sure they'll do their best to keep it consistent with an already "outlined" world, but I'd like to see their potential at full

gamer0004
19th May 2009, 16:27
I'm not saying I know what the world will be like in 2052, or in 2027. I do know that it is impossible for the world to look like the one as presented in DX3 in 2027 and then, in 2052, to look like the world as presented in DX. Besides that there are some very obvious flaws in the DX3 design. Especially the weapons. And the augmentations. And the interior designs (of the houses, the labs don't look that bad). And the fashion.
I.E. almost everything we've seen so far.

Sean D
19th May 2009, 17:16
While the original post was about "internal consistency" of the DX universe (which can barely be predicted judging by the art alone), the topic basically shifted to the look of the concept art.

Whereas IW turned out to be a console shooter with "uber cool sci-fi look" and senseless starship troopers guns, we don't need that in DX3. Unless we're up against the Zerg. The word "cheesy" comes to mind. That's the problem with many modern games: cheesy pseudo-luxury with no real taste. God forbid!

How I personally feel about concept art, I just wanna say I love the labs. And the sewers.

Also, here's another point: many would miss the unrealness of the game look (and sound).
Just what could be more cyberpunk than unreal engine and tracker music?
But because I totally loved the transformation in the UT series, i say: yay Kevin Riepl for DX3 soundtrack, yay Unreal3 engine. Actually, you should consider IW a combobreaker then.