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Lo
7th Dec 2008, 14:02
Hi all,

It's been a while since I started off a discussion of this nature on this board and with lots of new members I would be interested to know what aspects of the games (both old-skool and next-gen), appeal to you most.

There's already a poll on regarding the puzzle element but you can comment on that too if you feel puzzles are an integral part of the game. ;)

I suppose Tomb Raider was the first half-decent three-dimensional game with an expansive environment to explore. Fundamentally, Tomb Raider 1 was very comprehensive for it incorporated many great features. It had action, adventure, scope for exploring, puzzles, wildlife and of course some great audio and some neat little FMVs among other aspects. It has real nail-biting moments like, for example, when the flying mutants burst out of their pods :D

But I guess for me, it's always been about adventure (something slightly lacking in some of the later games). I just love to get inside all the nooks and crannies and find hidden places. I'm still finding previously undiscovered areas in some of the older games and wow, what a great feeling it is to have played a game several times and find a new area that you had totally missed previously!

What makes these games so special to you? Graphics? The story maybe? Or just being able to get completely lost in a virtual world of caves, pyramids and underwater caverns? :)

Jezyk
7th Dec 2008, 14:32
Great idea for a topic Lo :thumbsup:

There are many things that make an enjoyable TR game.
- most importantly, environments: mysterious, ancient, but sometimes diversified by contemporary ones
- gameplay: based on finding your way through the level by keen observation and smart use of Lara's moves - searching for levers, climbable ledges etc.
- puzzles should be neither too easy nor too difficult. I liked the ones in Legend, I think they were just right: not very difficult, but I couldn't solve them just like that either. And they often required observation of the environment, like in Peru for example.
- personally I don't like difficult fights and swarms of enemies. Lara is not Rambo.
- Croft Manor! I always feel like something's missing if it's not present in the game

JustMe
7th Dec 2008, 15:40
Lara :lol:

Lo
7th Dec 2008, 15:44
Great idea for a topic Lo :thumbsup:

There are many things that make an enjoyable TR game.
- most importantly, environments: mysterious, ancient, but sometimes diversified by contemporary ones
- gameplay: based on finding your way through the level by keen observation and smart use of Lara's moves - searching for levers, climbable ledges etc.
- puzzles should be neither too easy nor too difficult. I liked the ones in Legend, I think they were just right: not very difficult, but I couldn't solve them just like that either. And they often required observation of the environment, like in Peru for example.
- personally I don't like difficult fights and swarms of enemies. Lara is not Rambo.
- Croft Manor! I always feel like something's missing if it's not present in the game


Thanks, Jezyk :)

Good reply! I agree with you there, especially on the aspect of puzzles not being too hard nor too simple. :thumb: Obviously, I'm not a fan of puzzles per se but that said, I don't like to be patronised and given something so simple that I could solve it with both eyes closed and in a semi-permanent coma :D

The old-skool games are so vast aren't they?... in terms of the sheer expanse of the environments but also, you can exploit bugs to get to even more cool places ;)

One of my most determined efforts regarding bugs was when I espyed that helicoptor in TR3's City level. I worked tirelessly to get up there and that was way before I knew about the flight patch. I did it using the corner crawl bug and I was playing around for a good hour up there, taking screenshots and generally messing about :D

rg_001100
7th Dec 2008, 17:51
What makes a TR game? Tomb Raider is a renaissance game. It does not merely have one feature, or one thing special about it but it covers many areas of play. It is not an action game in itself; but is not a game void of action. It is not a puzzle/thinking game in itself, but contains these elements. It is not a game purely based on getting from A to B, but these elements are contained. (I remember making a post about what elements I considered were good TR, will try to find it).

BTW, when it comes to a game, I am far more interested in gameplay than story, or visuals.



Good reply! I agree with you there, especially on the aspect of puzzles not being too hard nor too simple. :thumb: Obviously, I'm not a fan of puzzles per se but that said, I don't like to be patronised and given something so simple that I could solve it with both eyes closed and in a semi-permanent coma :D

I want to see the puzzles challenging :D Have combinations, have it tough for the player to work out. I want a challenge - also so people don't complain the game was too easy. People whining about the game being tough is good, as long as it's not the fault of the game (through bad controls, or a bad camera).
I think Field Assistance (or whatever they call it in the next game) would allow them to have these challenging puzzles without making it too tough on people who don't want puzzles so hard. Field Assistance, in TR:U, has two levels; the first time it tells the player where they should be focusing on (usually a case of the obvious, just in case they missed it), and the second tells them what they should be doing to solve it. Refining these, or adding a third one so that people who want a bit of a puzzle don't have to be left out would be good.

LC is Me
7th Dec 2008, 18:30
Cool levels, tricky puzzles, hard bosses/enemies, an EPIC story, and controller throwing is TR for me.

:D

LaraCroftRox
7th Dec 2008, 18:36
:group_hug:

Lara :lol:

:lol:



Hmmm. For me, Lara, tombs, exploring, story, characters, difficulty, length, isolation.

I just like going into these places full of mystery that know one's ever been in for thousands of years. :group_hug:

rg_001100
7th Dec 2008, 18:53
(Couldn't find the post, so will write stuff again here)

A good Tomb Raider game is made up of many elements, all of which must be working together in harmony, and in balance. Too much of any one thing, and most people will not like this game.
The game mechanics of TR can be broken down into a few things:
Exploration:
Figuring out where to go in an environment, and figuring out how to get there. The player should be challenged in not immediately knowing where to go, but with a general idea of "forward" leading them from other game-element (e.g. puzzle, or combat) to game-element (e.g. puzzle, or combat) to progress through to the end of the level.
Too basic and the player will complain about linearity, too hard and the player will be frustrated by not knowing what to do.

Adventure:
Completing death-defying stunts, and dodging traps as Lara passes through tombs. To dull and ordinary, and the player will get bored. This is a video game, not real life. Have big jumps over spike pits, and deadly traps that unnerve the players.

Combat:
One of the hardest features to get right, because it is done so well by other games which do not have such a challenging criteria to meet. The combat should not be too intense in the game, but should not be too easy. I am for the idea of making combat ala other 3D combat games in the market nowadays an optional thing, so it is there for those who want it. The player should be challenged by the enemies, the player should have to dodge the enemies attacks to not be killed, rather than easily taking out the opponents, but the fights should not be too difficult as to get the player stuck.

Puzzle:
Give the player a rest from combat and adventure, give them a puzzle that will make them think, and spend a while in the same area. If the puzzles are too hard, the player gives up; too easy, the player complains.

Environment:
The environments should be beautiful! If the player is to be stuck in an area for a time, give them something realistic, something good to look at.
Enironments tie in with exploration, closely.

Graphics and Sound
The responce the player gets from pressing the controls; they see stuff change and stuff makes sound. Very important to the point that it's necessary for the game to be anything (if you couldn't see/hear anything of the game, you wouldn't have much to play with), but whether the graphics/sound need to be top-notch is debatable.

Story
Not as important as the other elements (arguably), but important to an extent. Decides which locations the player will visit, and should have a nice enough flow to it. Should not have an impact on gameplay.

digifan
7th Dec 2008, 21:19
Interesting question. :scratch:

For me the game should be open exploration but with interactions with secondary and supporting characters. Let see our Lara be equipped with a compass or at least some archeological tools so she can explore uncharted areas of ancient tombs. For example we know the pyramids are the world's most famous tombs. They contained secrets since the dawn of the Egyptians. I like to see Lara return to them and discover secrets that are considered as lost or myths. Let's keep the mazes and puzzles simple but with clever, lethal and ingenious traps designed to guard the relics and treasures within the heart or center of the tombs. How Lara would escape with her prize will be the real challenge. This is my ideal Tomb Raider game.

As for story lines, I like to see Lara research her family's background, how and why he earned the title of Lord Richard Croft and what tombs he had discovered but was unable to explore.

Any takers? :hmm:

GoLarago
8th Dec 2008, 03:06
Gee this is hard.
In the old core games I loved the exploring, puzzles, and Lara killed only when she had too. I think in TR1 she only killed 3 or 4 people. Everything else she put to rest was animals who wanted a girly snack. The old ones had alot of replayability. They were long The graphics aren't great compared to now but were well able to carry the story just fine.

The new games are beautiful. The new controls and moves are nice. They badly needed upgrading; which CD did well. She has unfortunatly become something of a cold blooded female Max Payne clone murderer anymore. Don't like the added characters, they talk too much. It was worth blowing up the mantion to shut them up. The new games are too short tho Underworld did better. You feel cheated by a 4 hr game you paid 50 to 60 dollars for.

So how to put this together:
1. Game needs to be long at least 15 hours.( and thats just racing thru it.)
2. Needs to be open sandbox. I want to go everywhere I can see.
3. Lots of puzzles and traps. These old dead dudes don't want us stealing their junk!
4. Gun play should be minimal between her and other people. If you want lots of killing go play Gears or some other run and gun.
5. Tthe hint system in Underworld was nice or the one in Dead Space at least pointing you the correct way if you finally get lost.
6. Visable compass, PDA was a great way of storing data, love sholder mounted flashlight
7. GIVE ME BACK THE ABILITY TO SAVE WHERE I'M AT --WHEN I WANT!!!!!!!!! Checkpoints suck except as a emergency backup . Stop telling me where I can save my game. Until Legend we could save whenever we wanted
8. Love graphics but I'll give up next gen ones if it gets me a longer games. My God I play TR1, Deus Ex, Max Payne, HL1 for heavens sake. Graphics are nice but they don't make a game like TR.
9. Needs to be fun and self contained . I don't want story carried over from one game to the next.

rg_001100
8th Dec 2008, 03:43
4. Gun play should be minimal between her and other people. If you want lots of killing go play Gears or some other run and gun.


...and if you want puzzles, go play myst, if you want thinking, go play chess, if you want exploration, go hiking without a map, or play an RPG.
The elements of TR are all done elsewhere, but aren't really brought together as well as they are in Tomb Raider.

Give the Option to have less combat, if the player wants it, with Player Tailoring. Don't close of the most popular, successful fangroups of the game industry...

GoLarago
8th Dec 2008, 04:14
...and if you want puzzles, go play myst, if you want thinking, go play chess, if you want exploration, go hiking without a map, or play an RPG.
The elements of TR are all done elsewhere, but aren't really brought together as well as they are in Tomb Raider.

Give the Option to have less combat, if the player wants it, with Player Tailoring. Don't close of the most popular, successful fangroups of the game industry...

Oh I agree, but the ballance started falling too far toward the typical run and gun and away from exploring and puzzles. I thought Underworld did a much better ballancing job though. It reminded me so much more of why I fell in love with TR to begin with.Just would have been nice to have had oh say 90 more hours of play. LOL.:lol:

RockWitU
8th Dec 2008, 12:39
The story for sure I just love to read about ancient things such as the Pyramids in eygpt ( I went there once by the way and it was an amazing trip ) also to read about gods like zeus , posiden .. etc.
And i like this game for the action in it i just love to destroy :)

batotesic
8th Dec 2008, 12:55
1. i love the story, it's awesome cause it continues from part to part (TRL->TRA->TRU->...) :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

2. gameplay is awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

3. graphics, AWESOME :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

so, that's :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: /:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

TOMB RAIDER BEST GAME OF ALL TIME!!!!!!!!!

JuicyJam
8th Dec 2008, 15:53
1. The Story - I get so spasmic about it.

2. The Atmosphere, you know when you turn a corner and the creepy music comes on and your like, I'm not going down those stairs cause the wolves will pop out. They are scary. The game has to give me the creeps.

3. Dual Pistols. - and the sound they make when you take them out. xD

4. Difficulty - I might be terrible at games but I found some of the older TR games really hard. Well maybe thats exaggerating, but Underworld and Legend felt too easy. Anniversary wasn't bad.

And finally, the most important one for me...
5. Getting LOST.
Only really happens in the older TR's again, but it's the one game that I don't mind searching round for a solution for.

Good idea for a Thread btw Lo xD

GoLarago
8th Dec 2008, 16:20
The story for sure I just love to read about ancient things such as the Pyramids in eygpt ( I went there once by the way and it was an amazing trip ) also to read about gods like zeus , posiden .. etc.
And i like this game for the action in it i just love to destroy :)

I am so jealous. I've been in love with Egyptian history since like the 4th grade. It would be so cool to actually touch the pyramids. The closest I got was seeing the treasures of King Tut when they came to the US and.he's way after the pyramids. I thought It was so unreal to see stuff that you only see in books in real life. It was sorta dream like.

IndyDallasJones
9th Dec 2008, 05:03
For me 1-3 & Chronicles were great, the best. Last rev was okay. But the new ones has just 'killed' TR for me for the most part, they just AREN'T VERY FUN anymore.

They play like a 'B' movie although the textures are nice looking; that's the only good thing about them. They had to reframe her movements & controls like Soul Reaver which I played some & was some cool but quit it after a while, just didn't like it as much. Lara can't walk, flip backwards anymore, the controls often don't work right or jam, on pc the go left sometimes just quits working which totally messes up any fighting skills especially w/key marauders & bosses. It's just not fun anymore either.

The SCRIPTED MOVES seem so 'stupid,' & it's not even playing anymore, it's just trying to hit prescribed buttons-keys to get the fmv to play through. It's set in stone & like a kids coloring book in essence, like fixed for a child that don't know nothing. Also some don't work well at all. They also don't give any real info about these in the little handbooks. They make a big one to sell though suposedly w/such in IT!

She's too slow, storyline's just not as interesting, but still the main thing is it's JUST NOT FUN, but more irritating than anything. It's mainly 'swelled up' & 'painted' pretty but would be better for a cartoon movie like some of the Final Fantasy movies. Just doesn't work as an enjoyable game though.

The reason writing this is for customer feedback & recognition of some honest feelings about these new tr's. And, just reinstalled & played some. Had them installed long ago, legend & Anniversary, but really didn't like them, wasn't fun to play, HAD LOST THE TRUE TOMB RAIDER FLAIR, FUN, & ADVENTURE that was in the original...& gameplay is the most important including movement, controls & then storyline. Textures aren't that important unless you want to just go & enjoy the scenery. I played those some but just lost interest & found just didn't like playing them & so they just sat on my hdd until had to replace it recently. These games to was without the original tomb raider fun factor that the originals up to AOD had.

The new TR games are too scripted, too slow, clunky, movement unnatural w/the Soul Reaver-kain gyroscoposity, TOO SCRIPTED especially & w/the ridiculous show what to do in a scripted fmv set in stone mere movie playing where is more like instead of hit 'Play' button, you have to hit this, that & the other thing for the same outcome...a mere 'play fmv please.'

People that don't know the joys of the original Core Tr's may be completely in the dark on the real fun of true Croft Tomb Raiding.

IndyDallasJones
10th Dec 2008, 17:24
I went ahead & played Legend some more. Might not be quite so bad but definitely isn't that fun like the orig. Core Tr's were! In fact, I guess I'm almost done w/Legend...& realize the impact it must've had on me:

I actually had played this & finished it completely & had forgotten completely that I'd actually played & finished the whole game! That's the impact it obviously had. :-(

Anniv. was the one I just never went back to, as just not really fun!

Too bad for Tomb Raider...even though they did nice work of environ textures. Game makers just miss the whole point, it's got to be really FUN gameplay wise to really succeed. Just looks ain't worth a sheet of dirty paper.

Indy

Aminahveggie
10th Dec 2008, 19:57
more tombes like tomb 4. I found tomb 4 the most tomb raider looking because there is literally tombes in it with sand

rg_001100
10th Dec 2008, 20:59
People that don't know the joys of the original Core Tr's may be completely in the dark on the real fun of true Croft Tomb Raiding.

People who haven't played the Core TRs are certainly missing out on something. Your comments on TR:L/TR:A are fair, in parts, but have you played TR:U? It captures the spirit of the original games a lot better than TR:L/TR:A did, although still has the things you personally do not like.

Bampire
12th Dec 2008, 04:05
The graphics are one thing, to help improve the overall gameplay and feel to the game. I love how the recent Crystal games have been nothing but eye candy, same with the later games, but not as great as TR:U.

What truly makes a TR game a TR Game is the nostalgia, and the story, along with the many, many difficult parts of the game. Like the remake for an example, TR:A- I was so frustrated, and still do whenever I go back to replay the whole game and have been a bit rusty at it. Just replaying The Great Pyramid, and Obelisk of Khamoon. Those climbing parts where it takes timing and speed, along with so much concentration to get to one place to the next. That's what makes a TR game. Alike of the classics where you have those timed moments. I dislike the timed puzzles but that's what makes Tomb Raider--Tomb Raider.

The gunplay, as much as I love to shoot monsters, animals and people, there needs to be a bit more balance with it. Less gun fire, and more brain power.

Icess
14th Dec 2008, 23:11
Hi all,

It's been a while since I started off a discussion of this nature on this board and with lots of new members I would be interested to know what aspects of the games (both old-skool and next-gen), appeal to you most.

There's already a poll on regarding the puzzle element but you can comment on that too if you feel puzzles are an integral part of the game. ;)

I suppose Tomb Raider was the first half-decent three-dimensional game with an expansive environment to explore. Fundamentally, Tomb Raider 1 was very comprehensive for it incorporated many great features. It had action, adventure, scope for exploring, puzzles, wildlife and of course some great audio and some neat little FMVs among other aspects. It has real nail-biting moments like, for example, when the flying mutants burst out of their pods :D

But I guess for me, it's always been about adventure (something slightly lacking in some of the later games). I just love to get inside all the nooks and crannies and find hidden places. I'm still finding previously undiscovered areas in some of the older games and wow, what a great feeling it is to have played a game several times and find a new area that you had totally missed previously!

What makes these games so special to you? Graphics? The story maybe? Or just being able to get completely lost in a virtual world of caves, pyramids and underwater caverns? :)


That would be my pick. I like a good game with lots of puzzles that you have to solve in order to get through the door. That's what got me hooked on the first one. Plus the length of the game is also quite important, if it's not long enough...then what's the point in playing it when your done with it in a day or so...?
Story lines a a definate must, without a good storyline, it wouldn't set your mind wondering how it's gonna turn out or where the game is gonna take you. But then the graphics also play a big part too...good lighting and control options...that is the ideal TR game for me...

rg_001100
14th Dec 2008, 23:13
if it's not long enough...then what's the point in playing it when your done with it in a day or so...?

Perhaps... (maybe) just for fun. :)