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View Full Version : Raziel seems pretty quick to forgive and forget



Raziel'sRevenge
3rd Dec 2008, 01:21
When he comes out of the Abyss he's pretty peeved at Kain, and rightfully so. Then he discovers that Kain has wiped out his entire clan "like excriment from a boot". Then he discovers that he was once a Sarafan, and a pretty high ranking one at that, so there's some more hatred towards Kain. Now granted he eventually comes to realize that the Sarafan weren't exactly good guys, but if I were him the first two would still be sizziling in my mind, and yet when he gets the chance to kill Kain not only does he not, but he actually has to fight to stop himself. Then he goes completely back into his role of obediant servent at the end of Defiance. No offence to Raziel but that's a pretty big mood swing. I don't know, perhaps it's just me but I don't see why Raziel suddenly likes Kain again. Sacraficing yourself so Kain can kill squiddy, this I can see, but the sappy speech at the end... Didn't quite cut it for me.

That's all :D

Yautjatraker/Albatraous
3rd Dec 2008, 07:40
I think it is more everyone he meets is telling him to kill Kain (in order to restore the pillars), whereas Raziel doubts this will restore them now.

Plus he probably thinks "I am a rebel, I will do the opposite of what everyone says" he is a non-conformist after all :D

Carnivorous Licks
3rd Dec 2008, 13:21
Plus he probably thinks "I am a rebel, I will do the opposite of what everyone says" he is a non-conformist after all

:lol:

Vampmaster
3rd Dec 2008, 20:13
I think Raziel had begun to see that Kain had his reasons for sending him into the abyss and that Kain has been given very few options to choose from by the same forces that have been mapipulating him. I am wondering what happened to Raziels clan though. Kain implied he killed them as a way of egging Raziel on, but I don't think he would really have killed them unless it served a good enough purpose. It seemed like they'd been completely forgotten about by Defiance. Maybe they mutated further than the other clans and became too dangerous, or maybe the hylden invaded again while Raz was in the abyss and they died fending them off, or maybe they are the hylden, although they probably aren't.

Elysion gear
3rd Dec 2008, 20:51
Reading the games like a book, I'd say that Raziel has developed as a character through the series, The storyline has developed more too as the game's progressed. As did all the rest of the other Characters.

His first motivation is revenge. (To kill Kain for what was done in SR) Which was quite one-sided, as vengeance-driven character.

In SR2, The whole thing about Free-will caused some doubts on his chorse of action, so Raziel began to rebel against the Elder God, only to be shown that he was being driven on a path towards his fate (Which was to be drawn into the Reaver.)
Defiance is more of a continuation of SR2, Raziel's fate was delayed, Only when Raziel finally understood did he freely chose to enter the Reaver. Understanding what Kain was trying to do. To put history back on it's proper chorse and Kain and the Reaver to to thier proper destinies.

Character-wise, Raziel reminds me a Teenager. Rebellious, sensitive and moody during the first game. Then matures by the end of Defiance by making the right choice, sacrificing his freedom for the good of Nosgoth and Kain.

Raziel'sRevenge
5th Dec 2008, 00:40
I'm going to have to agree with the teenager comment. There are a few times that I feel him being a little too self-righteous (although spending 1000 years living it up like a god with Kain will do that to a guy... :lol:)

The_Hylden
5th Dec 2008, 11:28
I definitely think that he stayed his hand against Kain due to a notion that Moebius, the EG, even Ariel -- all of these forces were hell-bent on him killing Kain and something was too convenient in this. Add tot his that Kain, ironically enough, was the only one explaining things rationally to him and Raziel has to, distastefully, listen. Plus, I agree he's more liable not to do something if told to do it, due to him being self-righteous and a teenager in his equivalent thinking, not to mention still the mind of the proud prince who never had to bow to, or take orders from, anyone, except Kain. The longer he goes also, the more twists of his own destiny he's seeing and this takes a precedent to figuring out what it all means over killing Kain, for the time being. By Defiance, however, we see that he's fed up with knowing the truth of his own destiny and that every turn he sees leads him to facing off against Kain and with no real way out of his predicament to become the Soul Reaver. The vengeful, furious side of him is unleashed in their fight. And what happens afterwards? After all of this, he finally gets his revenge, but, as he says, he feels "no elation, no sense of victory, just a calm certainty that we had again walked blithely into our enemy's trap." So, his first inkling that all of these forces were coercing him to kill Kain and that this was not only too convenient, but felt like a trap, was all true. Raziel isn't stupid and he's not just going to blindly go head-long into a fight to the death with Kain, unless he knows as much as he can first. The times when he has flown off the handle, look what it brought about. SR1, he gets smacked to the ground by Kain with the Soul Reaver, then he bonds himself to the ethereal version of himself as a means to counter this defeat. Two bad moves in one. The end of SR1, or rather, beginning of SR2, if we take the FMV as what really happened, he knocked Kain around a bit, then gets blasted into the wall, then follows Kain straight through into the past to play out his own destiny. Nothing he's done by going head-long into battle has gained him anything but more problems. Then, Avernus, we see his failure there. He defeats Kain, but that's the wrong move.

fneh
5th Dec 2008, 18:18
personally speaking:

If I was in raziel's shoes:

Kain - my king - destroyed my wings and threw me into the abyss where i'd "rather oblivion" to such an existance.

Killed my entire clan



finding out i was a holy priest - good OR bad, WHO CARES?! read the first 2!

I really don't think I'd be thinking "oh they all seem to want kain dead AS WELL.... maybe that means kain has some higher purpose and he's not just done similar things to these guys too?" Would you even care if ALL of nosgoth wanted him dead? would that make him even MORE destined of greatness after he tossed you away like a used tissue? I'd want one thing: my pound of flesh. The rest of the world could get in line and stay out of my way

Vae Victis
7th Dec 2008, 09:15
The force of hate and anger which drove Raziel to relentlessly pursue Kain during Soul Reaver was lost from the very beginning of Soul Reaver 2. With every voice in Nosgoth directing him to kill Kain, it became less and less his decision, and more of a conspiracy, which he later found himself entwined in. There would be no satisfaction in being used as a pawn. The victory would not be Raziel's, but that of the "prime movers". I believe it was the reason and logic of Kain, amidst all the deceit and treachery, that stayed Raziel's hand, rather than mercy or forgiveness.

dumah's wraith
7th Dec 2008, 22:25
I think Raziel had begun to see that Kain had his reasons for sending him into the abyss and that Kain has been given very few options to choose from by the same forces that have been mapipulating him. I am wondering what happened to Raziels clan though. Kain implied he killed them as a way of egging Raziel on, but I don't think he would really have killed them unless it served a good enough purpose.

Raziel: What has become of my clan, degenerate? You have no right!

Kain: What I have made, I can also destroy, child.

Pretty conclusive, no? Kain has no interest in his empire beyond the use it is to him. He let Melchiah, Zephon, Rahab and Dumah die without a second thought.

Vampmaster
9th Dec 2008, 23:46
In SR1, Kain was just trying to spur Raziel on. IMO, Kain saying "I can destoy them if I want to" is just a clever way of avoiding answering the question. Kain's no saint, but he's probably the most honest character in the series. Also, considering how furious he was at how Moebius' mercenaries wiped out the vampires in BO1 and then how the hylden tried to wipe out everyone in BO2, Kain's not going to be dumb enough to wipe out an entire race out because he lost his temper or to judge them all on Raziel's actions. If he did have them killed, he wouldn't have done so without a reason. Either way the reason for and the means behind the extinction of the Razielim is yet to be revealed.

The_Hylden
10th Dec 2008, 02:32
Kain executed Raziel for a traitorous act. Officially, to the other clans, Raziel surpassed his Lord and then flaunted his new gift in front of him. He was deemed a traitor. Now, that's the story Kain has to use so the rest of the clans don't think he's simply gone off his rocker. If he executes a clan's leader for treason, then leaves his clan alive, not to mention the strongest clan alive, that's not going to make sense to the others. They know all clan members follow their clan leader in a similar evolution shortly after the leader's. Every single clan member was going to evolve just as Raziel did. Kain leaving them alive would be hypocrisy. Again, also they're the strongest clan alive. The others would want them dead for fear that they are all going to undergo a transformation that, like Raziel, supposedly surpassed even Kain. Jealousy and fear would warrant and outcry for Razielim blood within the empire. For the sake of the empire at that moment, Kain had to order them all destroyed. I respect your ideas and you're a smart guy, vampmaster, but I think you're not looking at the grand picture on this one, and also you're not understanding Kain's motivations as a character. He's not happy in the past that his nemesis is destroying other vampires. In that sense, of course he wouldn't be. However, in this empire, which by now Kain's seen the coming downfall of through the Chronoplast anyway, he knows what each and every clan leader and their subsequent clan members would become: deranged jackals, devolved monsters. They're all doomed anyway, which is why he should be way over their coming loss by the the time he has to Abyss Raziel. Having the Razielim killed afterward is only doing them a favor, like when Kain killed Magnus and said as much. "Magnus, you have suffered much. It is with great pride that I grant you your death. Go now, my friend. Be free, as the rest of us, living or dead, can never be."

He also states as much about the whole sacrificing of his own kind at the end of SR1 with: "That is why, when I must sacrifice my children to the void, I can do so with a clear heart." While I am sure he didn't enjoy it, he's got to do it for the political reasons, not to mention for logical reasons. Just like he's not going to try and save any of the hundreds of vampires Raziel is going to destroy on his way to Kain, nor certainly the clan leaders, he's not going to spare an already doomed Razielim for sentiment. It is their destiny, whether by his own hand, Raziel's, or by time, that the Razielim, along with all of the clans, will devolve further into their own destruction. And, I guarantee you that if Raziel had returned, he'd have had no warm welcome from any Razielim, were there to have been any. He'd have been attacked first, heralded as a heretic, like the one Turelim did, second, and he'd have had to have subsequently then kill off his own "kind." If Raziel could have seen past his own anger at Kain's betrayal, he'd have reasoned this himself.

RainaAudron
10th Dec 2008, 12:47
For me the crucial thing which altered RazielĀ“s perception of Kain was their meeting at the Pillars in SR2. When Kain says: "Hate me but do it honestly", Raziel suddenly disarms the WB, and is willing to listen.

Vampmaster
12th Dec 2008, 13:04
As I was saying, Kain wouldn't have killed off the Razielim without a good reason and those would definately count, Hylden. However, there is still the question of whether he explicitly ordered their anihalation to keep the other clans from turning against him or whether he just didn't see the point in saving them as they were doomed anyway. I mean the clans fought all the time anyway according to the SR1 manual, so even if if he didn't give any orders, the other clans might have killed them off anyway. Nethertheless, there still other possibilities and I'd still like to see or hear a bit more about their demise in the game. All kinds of things happen when a big event like that happens. Secrets come out, revelations are made and some people might use the it as a distraction for other things. It would be an interesting era to explore.

Yautjatraker/Albatraous
15th Dec 2008, 08:32
After the events of BO1, Kain travelled through time, thus seeing everything that was going to happen? In this case he saw his children becoming devolved, and Raziel being remade in his blue "demonic" form. He knew this was going to happen, as he also did know that the soul reaver would break when he attacked Raziel with it.

Since he knew the eventually outcome of Raziel killing his brothers, why create them if they didn't have a purpose? He must have known Raziel would destroy them and take the abilities they had developed due to their de-evolution. By creating his weaker children for raziel to kill, he was making sure raziel could become almost as strong as himself (due to obtaining the other parts of his soul).

He knew that raziel would play a huge part, and he wanted to make sure raziel was strong enough to play the part that was destined for him.

Escaton
15th Dec 2008, 14:02
After the events of BO1, Kain travelled through time

Or rather I think he just took to gazing into the star portals Raziel encounters in the Chronoplast tunnel at the end of SR1.

"In your haste to find me, perhaps you have not gazed deeply enough..."
"As a man I could not have contained such forbidden truths..."

et cetera.

RainaAudron
15th Dec 2008, 18:09
Or rather I think he just took to gazing into the star portals Raziel encounters in the Chronoplast tunnel at the end of SR1.

"In your haste to find me, perhaps you have not gazed deeply enough..."
"As a man I could not have contained such forbidden truths..."

et cetera.

Yeah, this is much more likely.

Rivenmjk
16th Dec 2008, 02:58
OT but welcome vae victis and Elysion gear(which i know you on another forum btw...) to eidos/lok forum!!

Yautjatraker/Albatraous
16th Dec 2008, 08:07
OT but welcome vae victis and Elysion gear(which i know you on another forum btw...) to eidos/lok forum!!

Could we have this sentence in English please?

RainaAudron
16th Dec 2008, 16:51
Could we have this sentence in English please?

He or she apparently greets new members Vae Victis and Elysion Gear I think.

Pilotslover
16th Dec 2008, 20:22
The ending never really confused me.

I mean, Raziel has had 500 years between the end of SR2 and Defiance to think about everything (though he obviously has a very poor sense of time, bless him. XD)

As someone highlighted, I think Kain appealed to something in Raziel when he told him to hate him honestly, in that moment Kain beseeched him to actively hate him and the conclusion is that Raziel - when he thinks about it - doesn't hate Kain as much as he presumes; that when he thinks on it he realises Kain did what he had to.

I'm sorry if this makes little sense, usually my LoK discussions are over MSN. XD

I also personally look at it that Raziel wants to be of value to Kain again, like a desperate child seeking daddies blessing if you will. It sounds a bit twisted but that's how it seems to me. He was under Kain's command for 1000 years, that's not something he can just dismiss and forget even if Kain did cause him so much pain.

I would have liked to see more of the Razielim though, I was always curious about them, a flashback of the genocide would have done me ...

I apologise again if that makes little sense, been a while since I've had new people to talk to these things about.

PL

The_Hylden
17th Dec 2008, 12:20
He or she apparently greets new members Vae Victis and Elysion Gear I think.

Only those whose names are stated to be such:p

mega man
20th Dec 2008, 10:29
perhaps he wanted to escape that demented voice:lol:

Kousin Kevin
11th Apr 2009, 09:21
Characters change. Raziel acts pretty ethically as a wraith (obviously not as a Sarafan, I can't say for his vampiric unlife) and therefore, at the pillars in SR2, gives Kain a chance to explain himself. Intrigued by what Kain says, Raziel stays his hand. Later he finds tha by trapping himself in the Reaver he can help The Scion Of Balance (Kain) redeem Nosgoth, and throguh his maturity as a person and his own ethics as a warrior, accepts his fate above his petty revenge, espcially since he realizes Kain's death will NOT save Nosgoth.

Kousin Kevin
11th Apr 2009, 09:24
I think Raziel had begun to see that Kain had his reasons for sending him into the abyss and that Kain has been given very few options to choose from by the same forces that have been mapipulating him. I am wondering what happened to Raziels clan though. Kain implied he killed them as a way of egging Raziel on, but I don't think he would really have killed them unless it served a good enough purpose. It seemed like they'd been completely forgotten about by Defiance. Maybe they mutated further than the other clans and became too dangerous, or maybe the hylden invaded again while Raz was in the abyss and they died fending them off, or maybe they are the hylden, although they probably aren't.

They probabl died out without th guidance of their leader. There is never proof that the vampire liutenants had any sub commanders, so we can imply that the rest of the vampires are fledgling, living off the feeding the leaders would hel them fetch. Plus, even if Kain didn't do it, the other Clans (especially the Tureliam and The Dumahim, since they cast Raziel in the abyss) probably felt that the "Razielim" were the offspring of a traitor, and hunted them down without orders.

Soul Wraith
23rd Apr 2009, 04:45
Taking in account the obvious, Raziel has been a puppet all along. Kain knew what will happen by making his choice, he figured it out that the downfall of the empire is at the gates. He needed to alter his fate, to set things on the proper path, to re-write the history books and put the events in shape and motion. But most of all he needed a free will, something that he could not have, so he would not be able to set things right. That's where Raziel kicks in, the pawn. The evolution and the growth of the wings was pretty much what Kain wanted, a reason, or excuse if it fits better, to set his plan in motion. He marks Raziel as traitor and casts him into the Abyss, order carried away by Raziel's brothers-in-arms (even tho sometimes I'm not sure if Raziel is that special. I think that if any of Turell or Duman had evolved they would have met the same fate as Raziel's)

And so Raziel ended up as he did, decayed and reborn, to serve the hub as a reaper of souls. Even tho I'm not really sure if Kain had any proper conclusions around the means of machinations the Elder God is doing, at best, he at least knew about the means of working of his wheel. Raziel's rebirth and strive for vengeance was more or less what Kain needed. The extermination of the Razielims was just putting oil to the flame. Kain was drugging Raziel around, fulfilling his plan, reshaping destiny, ting loose ends...

Nevertheless, Raziel became pawn for many factors, pawn for all those who wanted Kain dead, but he, as every rebel would do, took everything with precaution, listened to both sides, out of which, ironically, only Kain was speaking with logic and rationality. He followed Kain everywhere, shaping the course of his own and Kain's destiny on the way. At the end, after all paradoxes and delusions, he found his place in history.

Kain refused to sacrifice and with that choice damned to ruin already damned creatures. He founded an empire damned to ruin, just to see the downfall and find the gate, the gate that will put things on course. Raziel's free will just made excellent key to unlock it...