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Kreutzberg
29th Nov 2008, 01:41
From the screenshots and various videos that I've been able to round up, BSP is going to have a wonderful appearance. We won't know how interesting and improved the gameplay (and map design) is, but it will likely be at least as good as BSM.

It seems, therefore, that Eidos could create another game that uses the same engine, almost wholly unmodified, and that features the European theater. Because there were relatively few historical battles, an expansion would probably be more logical. On the other hand, BSP departs from strict history, and something similar would open up plenty of European possibilities.

All they would really need to do would be create the relevant European units, and some maps featuring them in singleplayer and multiplayer. It would seem that an expansion (or even a standalone game) would take way less work that BSP itself, and they could still charge some reasonable price based on the number of units and maps included. If it had a full slate, I would pay the price for a full game, without any hesitation at all.

Arrow
29th Nov 2008, 03:37
As an expansion or modification, I can see potential for work in the Atlantic battles. Aside from that, however, I can't see sufficient potential in the Atlantic to warrant a whole game dedicated to it. Still, I'm sure you'd bring more than one player here to bliss by commanding a ship like Bismarck.

Polarshark
29th Nov 2008, 16:36
it'll be nice to have the atlantic expansion

but i don't think there's any big battles like the pacific

it'll also be nice if u buy both games and online, u can play as german,british,usa,japan etc and if u only buy 1 u can only play as 2 factions in multiplayer

just like in COH

It3llig3nc3
29th Nov 2008, 22:49
OK guys.
Let's give it a try. There have been many times since 2007 when this Atlantic scenario came up.
So here is what I ask: can anybody provide at least 10 battles referenced to historical events that could be playable in a BS:A for single player? Furthermore name a few scenarios that could work as multiplayer maps.

There is one rule here: you must NOT list any of the Bismarck events! That we all know about. Give us something else.

Fill in the following:
1. Historical reference date
2. Battlestations style UNIT roster for the map (mind the unit limits!)
3. Reference a map layout somehow
4. Name the victory conditions and mission objectives

billyfromhill
30th Nov 2008, 03:42
Battle of the River Plate - December 13, 1939
Battle of the Atlantic - June 1940 - March 1941, January 1942 - February 1943
Battle of Narvik - April 10 & 13, 1940
Raid at Taranto - November 11, 1940
Battle of Cape Matapan - March 28-29, 1941
Battle of the Denmark Strait - May 24, 1941
Sinking of the Bismarck - May 27, 1941
Operation Pedestal - August 10-13, 1942
Operation Tiger - April 27, 1944
D-Day Invasion - June 6, 1944
Operation Dragoon - August 15, 1944

Arrow
30th Nov 2008, 04:35
Battle of the River Plate - December 13, 1939


That battle consisted of 1 pocket battleship, 2 CLs, and a CA. That's three people. I can definitely see a lot of potential there. It'd be a very...strategic...game. :rolleyes:



Battle of the Atlantic - June 1940 - March 1941, January 1942 - February 1943

Out of everything, that one makes the most sense. Consisting of over 3000 ships, there's plenty of player involvement.



Battle of Narvik - April 10 & 13, 1940


The first battle of Narvik consisted of little more than a DD fight, so basically it'd be Phillipines without the carriers, airfield, or submarine. A DD deathmatch? Maybe. But it can be already done in Pacific anyway.



Raid at Taranto - November 11, 1940

Tell me how to make Pearl Harbour (which was likely single player for a reason) a multiplayer map, and maybe.



Battle of Cape Matapan - March 28-29, 1941


That one could work.



Battle of the Denmark Strait - May 24, 1941


A BB and a CA vs a BB and a BC? That's like Solomon Islands with one shipyard per team. >.>



Sinking of the Bismarck - May 27, 1941


I've had enough chasing carriers around in Coral Sea. Aside from there being only one German BB versus a handful of British ships, I find it more likely the Bismarck would blow everything to bits. So much for hunting the Bismarck - the Bismarck hunts YOU!



Operation Pedestal - August 10-13, 1942


Like Matapan, that one could also work. I don't see any major problems off-hand.



Operation Tiger - April 27, 1944


That was a military exercise. That wasn't even a real battle!



D-Day Invasion - June 6, 1944


Great, the US has a bunch of ships - but what do the Axis get? Command of the shore batteries? At most maybe an airfield, but ship-to-ship combat? Forget it.



Operation Dragoon - August 15, 1944
[/quote]
Another landing operation? Fun from a single player perspective, but in multiplayer? Nah.

andy3536
30th Nov 2008, 11:08
For me the atlantic makes no sence at all, there was very little involvment with axis surface fleet and it was mostly a submarine war for them. With the way subs are moddled in the game i don't personnaly feel that it's going to make a good multiplayer game.


The Mediterranean on the other hand is different. You had large Italian and British surface fleets (With some german). The bulk of the British carriers were used there. Then you also have all nations suppliying thier troops in north africa which ment merchants and submarines from all nations played a part.

Still not sure it could match the carrier V carrier battles of the Pacific but it'd still be fun.

It3llig3nc3
30th Nov 2008, 13:53
Battle of the River Plate - December 13, 1939
Battle of the Atlantic - June 1940 - March 1941, January 1942 - February 1943
Battle of Narvik - April 10 & 13, 1940
Raid at Taranto - November 11, 1940
Battle of Cape Matapan - March 28-29, 1941
Battle of the Denmark Strait - May 24, 1941
Sinking of the Bismarck - May 27, 1941
Operation Pedestal - August 10-13, 1942
Operation Tiger - April 27, 1944
D-Day Invasion - June 6, 1944
Operation Dragoon - August 15, 1944

Reading Arrow's comments it looks like not a lot can be taken out of this.
Besides it breaks my rule number 1! :)

Anyways. There might be a confusion here as well.
I was asking for single player maps and Arrow was commenting them as MP maps.
So if this series of events could form a single player campaign the limited number of units might work in early missions...
This is exactly why I asked for the victory conditions and objectives - without those it is impossible to judge the scenario!

I'm a bit on the side that the BS:A as a game might be a bit "mission impossible", however probably it could fill in a good DLC content.
Thinking about SP missions what I have in my mind:

1. for the Allies
- a few convoy escort missions with DDs, escort carriers and land based planes (both Atlantic (US-->England) and Baltic (for Russia)
- two missions covering the faith of Bismarck,
- few covering landing activities in the Mediterranean involving shore bombardment objectives as well

2. for the Axis
- convoy attacks with SUBS (Wolfpack)
- other side of the Bismarck story (can you avoid the mistakes the germans did and make port safely in France?)
- Bombing missions with planes against landing activities (well Germans had radio/radar controlled bombs around 1942!!!)
- Channel Dash (Operation Cerberus) - can you bring back the Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen from France to the German home port?

Polarshark
30th Nov 2008, 16:24
yeah

90% there won't be a atlantic

why go through all that trouble with such a boring atmosphere in the european seas

it's better if you want to do something about the eurpoean battles on LAND

COD,MOH etc

Kreutzberg
30th Nov 2008, 16:55
I quite agree that there are comparatively few historical battles in the Atlantic. On the flip side, how many of the battles in BSM (and likely BSP) are really true to their history? I think it's pretty clear that following history to a fault is not the way Eidos is going to go--if they had we would never see maps like Steel Monsters.

Given that, they could create plenty of hypotheticals, some of which could be quite interesting and at least inspired by history. An expansion is probably more practicable than a whole game, but there is plenty for 5-8 multiplayer scenarios.

It3llig3nc3
30th Nov 2008, 18:30
but there is plenty for 5-8 multiplayer scenarios.

This thread and the other 8 discussing the very same subject become boring quickly because there is no substance to it. Sooner or later it goes down to the talking about Bismarck and if this ship is bigger or Iowa. How lame.

You say there are plently of scenarios.
I asked: TELL US ONE!
Yet you who opened the thread still just hypothetically speculating about what could this be? That does not worth anything.

What are your ideas? Give us substance.

chip5541
30th Nov 2008, 19:30
I don't believe in a historical sense the Atlantic would not be a good choice. The only way I could see it working would be mostly based on hypothetical battles. Maybe as an addon for "what if" battles. After all, German U-Boats did make it to just off the coast of Jacksonville Florida and German saboteurs' did burn down a supply yard in New York.

Arrow
1st Dec 2008, 00:54
I quite agree that there are comparatively few historical battles in the Atlantic. On the flip side, how many of the battles in BSM (and likely BSP) are really true to their history?

I was honestly thinking about that as I was writing up all my crap a few posts ago. It's then occurred to me that Eidos seems to be taking BSP quite seriously, and if this trend continues, I think we'll be seeing fewer hypothetical battles named after real conflicts (meaning that if they wanted to make a hypothetical map like Steel Monsters, it'd actually be called that...if you know what I mean).

I've always suggested that BSM is just a testbed for an idea to see if it catches (I believe the Gamespot review puts it well: "Unlike other blends of action and strategy, this one is actually pretty good.") and BSP is what BSM is really supposed to be.

Kreutzberg
1st Dec 2008, 03:56
What are your ideas? Give us substance.


My whole point is that since they aren't really doing historical missions, it makes no difference whether they are Atlantic or Pacific. My "8 ideas" could be any of the BSP scenarios.

generyx
1st Dec 2008, 11:21
I really, really would love to get a Bismarck Download content! Pleeeaaase!
:cool:

It3llig3nc3
1st Dec 2008, 14:21
Forgive me for being selfish but if you read again my post #8 where I describe a potential BS:A DLC there are many things that can differentiate it from the Pacific. Well over and beyond the units if you take the North Atlantic the entire visual set of the game could be different.
Think about the dark months or the icebergs and anything like that.
Heavy winds and freezing temperature.
These all could impact the game in some ways. Ships need to mind icebergs, planes can't take off in cold weather, etc...

Arrow
1st Dec 2008, 14:23
Heavy winds and freezing temperature.


How would you portray freezing temperature in a video game about ships and planes? I mean, it's not like ships bundle up =P Although their crewmen could on deck...but how would you tell they're in bulkier winter suits?

I-Lucky-I
1st Dec 2008, 17:03
Some atlantic missions as download content would be great.
But for a new game I suggest a new setting - maybe a battlestaions space. :D

mycoldman
1st Dec 2008, 17:30
Some atlantic missions as download content would be great.
But for a new game I suggest a new setting - maybe a battlestaions space. :D

I keep banging on about Battlestations: Bathtub.
Plastic ships. Real war.

M0n3y
1st Dec 2008, 17:59
I keep banging on about Battlestations: Bathtub.
Plastic ships. Real war.

sounds great:D
i'll bring up my plastic Super Yamato model:cool:

and my bathtub duckie as a decoy!!

It3llig3nc3
1st Dec 2008, 18:41
I keep banging on about Battlestations: Bathtub.
Plastic ships. Real war.

My Dear mycoldman,

If you were a regular (so to speak frequent) poster on this forum I would forgive you for this nasty comment. But if this is your appearance for the week, that's pretty thin...

...shouldn't you be busily "looking into" many things about BS:P that this community is waiting from you?

Please forgive me the complete lack of my sense of humor, but you're no ordinary member here. I really would like to hope this is the exception to what you should represent here towards us.

Cheers

Arrow
1st Dec 2008, 20:14
I think that comment was for the battlestations space thing. Although it'd be interesting to have a space version, it's obvious that ordinary ships are the way to go...at least for now. I'd rely on the users to modify the engine and make space variants.

P.S: w00t, 1337 posts.

Polarshark
1st Dec 2008, 21:28
Some atlantic missions as download content would be great.
But for a new game I suggest a new setting - maybe a battlestaions space. :D

EWWWWWW

we all want REAL HISTORIC WARS
(the jap campaign ''what if'' to me is good)

battleshipman
1st Dec 2008, 23:17
I keep banging on about Battlestations: Bathtub.
Plastic ships. Real war.

Sign me up.:lol:

Arrow
1st Dec 2008, 23:23
EWWWWWW

we all want REAL HISTORIC WARS
(the jap campaign ''what if'' to me is good)

Maybe someone else could use the engine and make a space version, but I don't think a space game - assuming someone actually made one - should be considered part of the series...more like a spin off if anything.

chip5541
1st Dec 2008, 23:36
Battlestations: Star Blazers

http://www.otal.umd.edu/~mgk/blog/yamato.jpg

Battlestations: Robotech

http://www.igorstshirts.com/blog/conceptships/robotech_sdf1.jpg

Battlestations: Paper Boats

http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/08/paperBoat1.jpg

:nut:

Just thought I would throw up some ideas :nut:

Dremora Warlord
2nd Dec 2008, 02:39
Battlestations: Star Blazers

http://www.otal.umd.edu/~mgk/blog/yamato.jpg

Battlestations: Robotech

http://www.igorstshirts.com/blog/conceptships/robotech_sdf1.jpg

Battlestations: Paper Boats

http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/08/paperBoat1.jpg

:nut:

Just thought I would throw up some ideas :nut:

What ever happened to Battlestations: Evangelion? :nut:
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/b/be/EvaUnit02Still.jpg

Arrow
2nd Dec 2008, 04:02
Eh, I like Yukikaze more I think.

Dremora Warlord
2nd Dec 2008, 05:34
Eh, I like Yukikaze more I think.

I just googled that. All I can say is that looks awesome.

M0n3y
2nd Dec 2008, 16:35
Paper boats ftw!!! :D

Red October
2nd Dec 2008, 22:35
Paper boats ftw!!! :D

Paper Boats, are the worlds first air dropped war boat. :D Only rivaled by the paper airplane, which intern fears the paper tank. :nut:

watty14
2nd Dec 2008, 23:26
Battlestations: Paper Boats

http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/08/paperBoat1.jpg

:nut:

Just thought I would throw up some ideas :nut:

:lol: :lol: that is the funniest thing i have seen lol, how does that even float?? lol

SuperE
3rd Dec 2008, 00:12
The paper boat is awsome but for the other ideas if they did that I would leave this game

Arrow
3rd Dec 2008, 04:04
http://pnmedia.gamespy.com/planetcnc.gamespy.com/features/commandandcomedy/ep04/navy.jpg

The all-new US coast guard vessel. Expect to see some operating around Las Vegas (yes, in the middle of a desert).

M0n3y
3rd Dec 2008, 18:19
:lol: :lol: that is the funniest thing i have seen lol, how does that even float?? lol
i wonder who even bothered of building one :lol: :lol:



http://pnmedia.gamespy.com/planetcnc.gamespy.com/features/commandandcomedy/ep04/navy.jpg

The all-new US coast guard vessel. Expect to see some operating around Las Vegas (yes, in the middle of a desert).

i bet for 5 bucks i can push it over with my thumb >.> :P

chip5541
3rd Dec 2008, 19:01
I bet after he opens up with that .50cal, you wont have too.

com345
3rd Dec 2008, 21:19
with that tiny elektro outboard engine it would move backwards when firing even with full throttle!
:nut: :nut: :nut:

chip5541
3rd Dec 2008, 21:33
with that tiny elektro outboard engine it would move backwards when firing even with full throttle!
:nut: :nut: :nut:

:lmao: I'd pay money to see that :lmao:

David603
5th Dec 2008, 15:19
This thread and the other 8 discussing the very same subject become boring quickly because there is no substance to it. Sooner or later it goes down to the talking about Bismarck and if this ship is bigger or Iowa. How lame.

You say there are plently of scenarios.
I asked: TELL US ONE!
Yet you who opened the thread still just hypothetically speculating about what could this be? That does not worth anything.

What are your ideas? Give us substance.
Here are some ideas I've come up with for multiplayer scenarios based in the Atlantic, North sea and Mediterranean. All are based on real events, though fictionalised to provide some balance.

1: Battle of the Barents Sea
German heavy cruisers Lutzow and Admiral Hipper plus 6 destroyers against the British light cruisers Sheffield and Jamaica plus 8 destoyers who are escorting convoy JW51B. The British need to get a percentage of the convoy from one side of the map to the other. The Germans need to sink either all escorts or a certain percentage of the convoy.

2: Convoy PQ17
Lightly escorted British convoy vs Tirpitz and escorts plus aircraft and subs. The British have a strong distant escort placed at the opposite end of the map to Murmansk, with the convoy in the middle and Tirpitz to the south of the convoy. The British can win by sinking Tirpitz or by getting a certain percentage of the convoy to Murmansk, the Germans can win by sinking a certain percentage of the convoy.

3: The Battle of Matapan
Steel Monsters style slug-fest. The Italians have a moden battleship with many cruiser and destroyer escorts, though they would need to be reinforced with at least one more battleship as the British have three modernised Queen Elizabeth class battleships and some light cruisers.

4: Battle of Mers-el-Kibir
In real life this was terribly one-sided but if the French ships are allowed out of port then a more even fight could develop. French forces are two old battleships plus two battlecruisers. British forces are the Hood plus the old battleships Valiant and Resolution and both sides have some smaller units.

5: Battle of Cape Spartivento
Two Italian battleships plus 6 heavy cruisers and 14 destroyers vs British forces of one old battleship, one battlecruiser, one aircraft carrier, one heavy and 5 light cruisers plus 4 destroyers.

6: 2cd battle of Sirte Gulf
Another convoy mission, with 4 British light cruisers and 18 destroyers fighting a delaying action to allow a convoy to escape from an Italian force consisting of a battleship, 2 heavy and 1 light cruisers with 8 destroyers. The British can win by sinking the batleship or by getting a certain percentage of the convoy away. Italians win by sinking all the escorts or by destroying a certain percentage of the convoy.

7: Classic wolf pack vs convoy battle.
Need I say more? Usual convoy mission winning conditions. Could be several versions of this.

8: Operation Cerberus (Channel dash)
Similar to Surigao Strait but with more emphasis on Britsh air power than in real life and more small British ships too. British win by sinking two out of the three large German ships, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen. Germans win by getting two of these ships to safety.

andy3536
5th Dec 2008, 15:27
My whole point is that since they aren't really doing historical missions, it makes no difference whether they are Atlantic or Pacific. My "8 ideas" could be any of the BSP scenarios.

They have made an effort with the SP campain to have historical missions. And i think thats the way it should be and should stay.
Atlantic or Med missions in MP with hypothetical situations wouldn't be an issue as thier out of context to a timeline and storyline following the war that the missions in the campain would be.

CaptHawkeye
17th Dec 2008, 05:09
I don't believe in a historical sense the Atlantic would not be a good choice. The only way I could see it working would be mostly based on hypothetical battles. Maybe as an addon for "what if" battles. After all, German U-Boats did make it to just off the coast of Jacksonville Florida and German saboteurs' did burn down a supply yard in New York.

The only scenario I could see for this would really be just big submarine vs. DD fights, which would probably get old fast. (Hint: The DDs usually win.)

If we ever wanted to do an Atlantic War, I don't really feel WW2 is the place for that.

Can you say, Battlestations Jutland? :)'

I actually think an alt history game would probably work in the area of expanding the Atlantic. Germany won the first World War say, and the Kaiserliche Marine still exists. Which would also allow us to make German Battleships that don't suck, and even include many experimental designs both sides had that were canceled as a result of the Naval Treaties.

Kreutzberg
17th Dec 2008, 05:14
I would be all over Battlestations WWI. It could have Jutland and a few others, and there could even be Zeppelins. The only problem is that the value of aircraft (and to some extent subs) would be pretty small.

andy3536
20th Dec 2008, 11:56
This game wouldn't work with WW1. Battle of Jutland, well yes but what else?:rolleyes:

You can't pay £40 for a game that evolved around a single battle.

CaptHawkeye
20th Dec 2008, 22:41
Dogger Bank? 1st and 2nd Helgoland Bight? The Falklands? Coronel? The Pursuit of Goeben? Plus an assortment of "what ifs"? :)

andy3536
22nd Dec 2008, 20:13
Dogger Bank? 1st and 2nd Helgoland Bight? The Falklands? Coronel? The Pursuit of Goeben? Plus an assortment of "what ifs"? :)

*Groans*

Not enough to make up half a campain there, and they'll be nothing on the carrier V carrier battles of the pacific.

Arrow
22nd Dec 2008, 20:50
Not to mention antiquated planes made of paperclips and string. >.>

Yamamoto666
23rd Dec 2008, 03:11
space battlestations sounds good, what about modern naval warfare, like with a fictional war but with real naval ships in existing navies, Boomer subs, attack subs, both american, for fun we could even use the Iowa class BBs and long range missiles like that exist today.
Just to build off of space Bs, how abt um...starwars vehicles, like SWBF2, but where people can use the actual large space vehicles, stardestroyers, deathstar(by an entire team), and other starwars stuff, ofcourse Lucas arts already has tons of battles from the movies and an entire database of all of the vehicles exists.
the only game that really resembles BS in space would be that star trek game, where u can control the spaceships from the movies and shoot etc, large maps, choose vehicles...

ALSO, ranking system for BSP or something

everyone starts off w. a destroyer, a CL and a small sub, and they can use that fleet to score hits on other ships to earn points to buy new vehicles and weapons for their fleet, who needs to recreate battles when new ones can be made just by looking into the units owned by each individual player.

haha, just more ideas

CaptHawkeye
23rd Dec 2008, 04:24
*Groans*

Not enough to make up half a campain there,

Nah, really? It's not like these battles have to be "ONE BATTLE LAWL", they could be separated into numerous sub operations. Ex: Jutland itself would be 3 missions, the Battlecruiser Action -> Sheer's Crisis -> The Night Escape.

I agree that carriers and airplanes would be virtually non-existent though. No way to remedy that unless you want to wildly inflate the importance of seaplane tenders.

So WW2 tech is the best tech, but we're tired of WW2.

Just do an alt-world scenario. Include all of the wanky naval ship designs everyone wanted to build but couldn't because of the stupid Naval Treaties. Post-1945 designs/weapons that didn't happen because the war ended. Basically, do what Ace Combat does. Invent a world with all the exact same tech that we've got. Just, spare us the storyline, monolouging characters, etc.

andy3536
23rd Dec 2008, 09:50
space battlestations sounds good

Enough said :rolleyes:


Nah, really? It's not like these battles have to be "ONE BATTLE LAWL", they could be separated into numerous sub operations. Ex: Jutland itself would be 3 missions, the Battlecruiser Action -> Sheer's Crisis -> The Night Escape.

I agree that carriers and airplanes would be virtually non-existent though. No way to remedy that unless you want to wildly inflate the importance of seaplane tenders.

So WW2 tech is the best tech, but we're tired of WW2.

Just do an alt-world scenario. Include all of the wanky naval ship designs everyone wanted to build but couldn't because of the stupid Naval Treaties. Post-1945 designs/weapons that didn't happen because the war ended. Basically, do what Ace Combat does. Invent a world with all the exact same tech that we've got. Just, spare us the storyline, monolouging characters, etc.


Tired of WW2? Nah, not really.
Think of it in terms of gameplay, it's the only era that makes sence. WW1, virtually non existent air power would make this game more of a slug fest without many dimensions to the gameplay and would get old quickly.

Then you look at the modern game, it's all fire and forget missiles and no real skill.
Ace Combat series is just an arcade shooter with no real effort made to be a flight sim. Although Battlestations is no sim they do at least make some sort of effort.

CaptHawkeye
23rd Dec 2008, 14:19
WW2 is easily the best theatre for Naval War, the tech is cool but not pointless and wanky like modern "UBER MISSILES OF ONE SHOT KILL".

With Ace Combat I was referring to the fictional world it was set in, not the gameplay. The alt-world basically allows the writers to set whatever industrial and political rules they want. If only they made a sim, it might actually be cool.

David603
23rd Dec 2008, 14:36
The only scenario I could see for this would really be just big submarine vs. DD fights, which would probably get old fast. (Hint: The DDs usually win.)
How about subs vs convoys? I can tell you, trying to kill a sub with a destroyer in BSM can be pretty hard.

If we ever wanted to do an Atlantic War, I don't really feel WW2 is the place for that.

Can you say, Battlestations Jutland? :)'

I actually think an alt history game would probably work in the area of expanding the Atlantic. Germany won the first World War say, and the Kaiserliche Marine still exists. Which would also allow us to make German Battleships that don't suck, and even include many experimental designs both sides had that were canceled as a result of the Naval Treaties.
Someone came up with the idea of an expansion pack built on the BSP engine and based in the Atlantic. I like this idea because it would enable a game a lot of us want to be put together quickly, and free up the devs to then produce a true sequel (or prequel if set in an earlier time). Battlestations Jutland sounds very good indeed for the next full game, I've always liked the idea of a naval game based in WWI, as the only viable alternatives I can think of without going into science fiction are using either a fictional modern scenario or a Napoleonic wars scenario.