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Ghostface
27th Nov 2008, 03:28
Hey, I'm a new poster here, who has been lurking these boards for quite some time. I just wanted to post talking about the sniper locating technology that deus ex 3 requires in order to be realistic to military standards. In the old Deus ex, enemies would instantly know where they were being shot from when you sniped them, no matter where you hid. I think this should be explained in Deus Ex 3 as the sniper locating device. Military officials or high level organized criminals might have these and they will fire in your general direction as soon as you hit them. If you are fighting low level criminals or police officers then you wouldn’t have to worry about the device. In the came you should be able to get this item and use it to your tactical advantage.

Here's the newspaper article on the anti-sniper device

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/3496790/Soldiers-in-Iraq-and-Afghanistan-to-get-life-saving-anti-sniper-device.html

Also enemy snipers should take better sniping positions and should actually change locations and find new cover once discovered. Id like to have snipers use realistic tactics in the game this time and firing while crouched or lying down. Bullet physics such as wind, friction and bullet refraction should be taken into account. There are some other things I want to dicuss later, like lquid armor and powered armor, wich have already been created in real life.

I'd like to see the AI react similarly to Far Cry 2's when being hit by a sniper and not having the locating device. It might be possible to use sniping as a non leathel alternative when a stun prod isnt an option.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKiuHHqgGx8

Ghostface
27th Nov 2008, 03:38
Here's the FutureWeapons spot on the older(non-portable) version of the device.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYgsGoAlb1s

3nails4you
27th Nov 2008, 04:34
They didn't always figure it out, sometimes they ran around trying to figure it out and then forgot about it after a minute.

Ghostface
27th Nov 2008, 16:47
Yeah, I was probably thinking of other games too. The AI would need to be re-worked for this game

Malah
27th Nov 2008, 18:07
I'd like to see the AI react similarly to Far Cry 2's when being hit by a sniper and not having the locating device. It might be possible to use sniping as a non leathel alternative when a stun prod isnt an option.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKiuHHqgGx8

It's scripted, you know. The trailers made the game look godlike, while the actual product was a steaming pile of ****.

Sniping and stealth was almost impossible. There were no silenced rifles, only a dart gun. And EVERYONE knew where you were the moment you fired a round and responded with sharpshooter-like accuracy with their AK's.
See-Through-Walls-Vision-O-Matic-2008 (TM), I guess.

I doubt this will be any different. If there's a bang, they'll know where you are and open fire. I hope silenced shots won't be pinpointed after one shot.

Since this game takes place in cities (hopefully not jungles), the game can simply check if there's a door in the way and ignore the guy drowning in his own blood.

I hate it when everyone is alerted to you without any apparent reason, which was often the case with FC2. Silent kill in the middle of town, no noise - everyone starts chasing you and shooting.

Jerion
27th Nov 2008, 18:11
I suspect the combat AI will be an advanced version of the AI used in Half Life or FEAR. I could be entirely wrong though.

In any case, I think the AI should definitely be able to react differently depending on whether or not the weapon(s) used were silenced, quiet, or non-lethal. Also, whether or not much, if any noise was made during the kill unrelated to the weapon (like knocking over a barrel). :D

Malah
27th Nov 2008, 18:39
HL and FEAR are great examples. Thinking back I realized how much easier it must be to create convincing AI reactions in urban environments.

However, every time I start thinking of the possibilities, I forget it's not 2030 (and despair when my feet touch the ground again).

As long as the AI provides resistance and doesn't make progress too easy, I'm OK. Staring at walls is forgivable, but frowned upon. :rasp:

spm1138
27th Nov 2008, 18:41
That would be very cool as a HUD feature :D

Ideally I'd like to see the AI taking cover as priority number one when they get sniped or shot at.

Only mechs, drugged/brainwashed fanatics and the truly stupid should stand there firing back.

I'd then like to see them putting fire on where you shot from and maybe even covering their movement with smoke grenades and possibly radioing for help.

They could even run away... :D

Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory (best in the series) had some great sneaking game AI. Seriously recommend having a look at it.

If you let them set the alarm off ALL the AI in the level would switch to a higher readiness state.

They'd progress through ambling around without a care in the world -> having their gun / torch out -> Putting on a vest -> Putting on a helmet, grabbing a bigger gun and being much more cautious. I think they even start turtling up in guard posts and/or patrolling in groups.

The AI is a bit lacking for straight forward combat though.

The Metal Gear Solid series does a better job of AI that switches into "combat mode". They move as a team, breach rooms with flashbangs, properly clear the room checking cover etc.

I'd really like to see features of both with the addition of different tactics from different types of enemy according to their training level, how much they don't want to die etc. etc.

You wouldn't expect common thugs to be using military room clearing tactics.

The presence of mechs and bots does throw up some interesting questions in that area. I guess they'd send the mechs in first because they're tougher... and they'd send bots in to pin you down while the squishies flanked.

GmanPro
27th Nov 2008, 18:44
I think the combat AI will be good, but that's not what I'm overly concerned over. It's always hard to make the AI seem convincing when you've got stealth involved. Every game I've ever played that has stealth has the same problem. If you get noticed, the enemies will start looking for you but then they will always just give up after a while. Even if they bumped right into you and a firefight ensued. The alarms in DX were cool imo but they didn't really seem to do anything. It always looked like the guards continued to go around business as usual even when the alarm was blaring.

spm1138
27th Nov 2008, 19:10
Well sure, but that's stealth games for you.

They've got to be smart enough to provide sport but dumb enough that you can slip by and feel clever while doing so :cool:

Ghostface
27th Nov 2008, 22:10
Well sure, but that's stealth games for you.

They've got to be smart enough to provide sport but dumb enough that you can slip by and feel clever while doing so :cool:

I'd rather have AI act like real humans if that were possible

GmanPro
28th Nov 2008, 02:09
^^
It would probably be too hard to go stealth then. I don't think a real person, let alone a professional guard, would just forget about the dude he saw and shot at just because he couldn't find him after 60 seconds of searching.

Ghostface
28th Nov 2008, 03:05
^^
It would probably be too hard to go stealth then. I don't think a real person, let alone a professional guard, would just forget about the dude he saw and shot at just because he couldn't find him after 60 seconds of searching.

All the more exciting.
It would make it better if they chased you and you had to escape. Remember you have thermoptic cammo that you can use to your advantage.

GmanPro
28th Nov 2008, 07:19
Even if you got away, They would be on lock down for days trying to find the security leak and how you managed to get inside. The alarms would go off and guards would be patrolling around everywhere extra hyped up because they are tired of sitting around all day and are hoping that this is not a drill. There would be no way to continue your mission short of busting out your automatic rifle and going Rambo mode.

Now that would be cool and realistic and I would love it (might just hit the auto-load key instead, but it would still be sweet), but it wouldn't appeal to the casual gamer.

Freddo
28th Nov 2008, 11:50
In the old Deus ex, enemies would instantly know where they were being shot from when you sniped them, no matter where you hid. I think this should be explained in Deus Ex 3 as the sniper locating device.
I don't think it should be explained in Deus Ex 3 or any other way than "Deus Ex had bad AI".

Blade_hunter
28th Nov 2008, 13:22
Look about DX 3; this idea sounds interesting, not about FC 2 but about the shot detector, we can have enemies with silencers and others without and detect with a device (something integrated as possible) or a mod, can be interesting if we have some snipers in roof tops, behind a vehicle, hidden or somewhat else, where a noisy shot came from, many tools, suits and things can be used, this make a choice about defensive, utility and weapon systems.

Imagine we have a system like this on our arm or eventually made in a HUD element

Romeo
29th Nov 2008, 08:45
The danger with silencers is great. Many games, a silenced weapon can be fired at a gaurd, miss, and he still wont care. You can drop one gaurd, and have another nearby pay no attention to him. Or, on the opposite side, sometimes you can use a silenced weapon and still have every gaurd in a ten-mile radius come running. And something I have never seen any game employ (But Velvet Assassin is doing it, if I'm not mistaken) is using a silenced weapon as bait. By shooting a silenced round into something load, such as a concrete wall or metal barrell, gaurds will investigate the sound, leading them straight into traps.

Ihsan
30th Nov 2008, 06:23
That sniper locator sounds interesting, i never knew about it. As for farcry 2, that video wasnt a very good reflection on the game, prity much have guys all over you soon as you shoot.

Abram730
30th Nov 2008, 21:12
Hey, I'm a new poster here, who has been lurking these boards for quite some time. I just wanted to post talking about the sniper locating technology that deus ex 3 requires in order to be realistic to military standards. In the old Deus ex, enemies would instantly know where they were being shot from when you sniped them, no matter where you hid. I think this should be explained in Deus Ex 3 as the sniper locating device. Military officials or high level organized criminals might have these and they will fire in your general direction as soon as you hit them. If you are fighting low level criminals or police officers then you wouldn’t have to worry about the device. In the came you should be able to get this item and use it to your tactical advantage.

Here's the newspaper article on the anti-sniper device

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/3496790/Soldiers-in-Iraq-and-Afghanistan-to-get-life-saving-anti-sniper-device.html

Also enemy snipers should take better sniping positions and should actually change locations and find new cover once discovered. Id like to have snipers use realistic tactics in the game this time and firing while crouched or lying down. Bullet physics such as wind, friction and bullet refraction should be taken into account. There are some other things I want to dicuss later, like lquid armor and powered armor, wich have already been created in real life.

I'd like to see the AI react similarly to Far Cry 2's when being hit by a sniper and not having the locating device. It might be possible to use sniping as a non leathel alternative when a stun prod isnt an option.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKiuHHqgGx8


A good suppressed weapon will fire subsonic rounds and thus not have a shockwave to detect. There are 2 ways to do this. Have a subsonic round with less powder or a barrel that vents the gasses before the bullet reaches super sonic speeds(same ammo)..

keep in mind that a subsonic round does less damage.. so there is a trade off, but it would defeat that detection system.

I'd also like to point out that any gun fired in my city shows up as a dot on a computer screen. Any shot gives your location away.

Helping police watch over York
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIi8o0oVGo8

A closer view of ShotSpotter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7TAIlrBbzA

Cisco Open Platform for Safety and Security
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3jVdo2a5UE

A system like this would present quite a bit of hacking fun with a wealth of knowledge or just attack the security control room.
Then again how much does it really help? A few minuets after gun shots police show up, look around and go.

hacking such a system is quite believable because Adam would of been trained on one and be looking into how his facility was compromised. There is a hook there.

Ghostface
30th Nov 2008, 23:25
Yeah we'd have to use subsonic rounds to defeat that system. The mini-crossbow would also be useful when you don't want to be detected. Hacking the system is believable, and if you don't have access to your the system you can use your skill in electronics to disable the sensor.

Psychopomp
3rd Dec 2008, 18:33
"Sniping and stealth was almost impossible. There were no silenced rifles, only a dart gun. And EVERYONE knew where you were the moment you fired a round and responded with sharpshooter-like accuracy with their AK's.
See-Through-Walls-Vision-O-Matic-2008 (TM), I guess."

Were we playing the same game? Sure, Machete kills instantly gave you away for some stupid reason, but the silenced weapons didn't give you away. The enemies accuracy and vision seemed to be normal as well.


PROJECT TANGENT TRAIN IN FULL EFFECT.


Uhm...I have nothing to contribute to this thread.