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Wildeheart
26th Nov 2008, 13:17
Given that the new Tomb Raider game makes massive use of Motion Capture for character animation and that motion capture is very expensive and resource consuming what are your opinions on it being used in DX3?

Do you think they'll go for Mocap?
Has René et al already confirmed that Mocap is being used?
If they are going for a lot of Mocap do you think the money would be better spent elsewhere or is fluid animation a must for an immersive experience?

spm1138
26th Nov 2008, 13:36
Mocap is a must tbh.

Bad animations destroy immersion especially where you're supposed to interact with characters.

I'd hope they'd have a mocap rig or use of a mocap rig already being part of Eidos.

Wildeheart
26th Nov 2008, 13:42
Mocap is a must tbh.

Bad animations destroy immersion especially where you're supposed to interact with characters.

I'd hope they'd have a mocap rig or use of a mocap rig already being part of Eidos.

If memory serves me correctly, I seem to remember Eidos Montreal have had a Mocap rig included in the new studio build-out but I could be wrong on this. Even if they have got a rig I don't think they've said anywhere that they're using it for DX3, it may just be future proofing for the studio, after all they're surely planning to make more games there than just DX3.

That said, I totally agree with your post; fluid animation is a must. I'm just hoping they don't get too carried away rendering mad martial arts combos etc and letting the music/script/voice acting suffer as a result of budget constraints. After all, good voice acting with talented but non-famous actors is waaaaay cheaper than mo cap and look how much bad voice acting can ruin great games (Bethesda, I'm looking at you!)

Yargo
26th Nov 2008, 15:56
That said, I totally agree with your post; fluid animation is a must. I'm just hoping they don't get too carried away rendering mad martial arts combos etc and letting the music/script/voice acting suffer as a result of budget constraints. After all, good voice acting with talented but non-famous actors is waaaaay cheaper than mo cap and look how much bad voice acting can ruin great games (Bethesda, I'm looking at you!)

You can also look at Bethesda for the crappy moon walking animations. As long as theres nothing like that or the whole going through yourself a la spore then I'll be happy :D. Make the game don't beat every subtleties to death with a stick. That said, by no means do I want to buy an unfinished product!

Tracer Tong
26th Nov 2008, 20:44
Euphoria - True fluid animation.

Google it up.

K^2
26th Nov 2008, 21:26
Euphoria makes sense when you build it into the engine from scratch. TRU doesn't use Euphoria, so neither will DX3. Though, it would have been nice.

On mo-cap, I'll second spm1138. These days, there is little excuse not to use motion capture.

jordan_a
26th Nov 2008, 23:13
New! Motion capture (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=83447)

Patakreps
27th Nov 2008, 00:45
I like motion capture when it's well done. The sword fighting in The Witcher is amazing to watch thanks to this. But you should not underestimate how good hand made animations can be ! Have you seen the next Prince of Persia's animations ? It has the most impressive and smooth animations out there and, please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is not mocap as far as I now. ;)

In addition, Deus Ex 3 looks more cartoonish than realistic. So maybe it needs more Team Fortress 2 like animations than realistic ones to be cool to watch. :nut:

Wildeheart
27th Nov 2008, 02:44
I like motion capture when it's well done. The sword fighting in The Witcher is amazing to watch thanks to this. But you should not underestimate how good hand made animations can be ! Have you seen the next Prince of Persia's animations ? It has the most impressive and smooth animations out there and, please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is not mocap as far as I now. ;)


Well this is why I posed the theory really, I totally agree here, I'm not sure scripted animation is dead yet, especially for player characters and npcs with superhuman (augmented) skills that can't be done by a human even with a wire rig anyway.

Wildeheart
27th Nov 2008, 02:45
Also, don't forget Bioshock was not mocapped, the many faults that that game has, character animation and fluidity isn't one of them ;)

Necros
2nd Dec 2008, 14:03
It depends, both can be good but only if they are done well. Neither is better than the other.

In addition, Deus Ex 3 looks more cartoonish than realistic. So maybe it needs more Team Fortress 2 like animations than realistic ones to be cool to watch. :nut:
Hell no! **** I really hope the game's style turns out to be at least somewhat realistic, that's one of the core values of a Deus Ex game. I really don't like that guy in the lab coat on one of the pictures. Doesn't appear to look like a real human being. :(

Jerion
2nd Dec 2008, 14:09
^^

Reminds me of Omar. :whistle:

APostLife
3rd Dec 2008, 06:37
Won't Mocap will make system requirements soar? Not everyone in the target audience, mainly PC gamers, have a good enough computer to run it. Console will never be a problem.

GmanPro
3rd Dec 2008, 06:40
Mocap has been in a bunch of games now without incident. Besides, PC's can easily be much more powerful than 360's or PS3's for not that much money these days. The consoles just lower the settings a bunch.

Jerion
3rd Dec 2008, 06:49
Won't Mocap will make system requirements soar? Not everyone in the target audience, mainly PC gamers, have a good enough computer to run it. Console will never be a problem.

No. As I understand it, It doesn't really affect system performance much at all.

K^2
3rd Dec 2008, 08:42
Precisely. Motion-capture is one way to generate key frames. Another is to set them by hand. Either way, key frames have to be there. So the animation will take up the same amount of resources regardless.

GmanPro
3rd Dec 2008, 09:13
Although, Deus Ex doesn't seem like the type of game that really needs Mocap. Games like The Witcher and Tomb Raider make good use of it, but mostly out of necessity. In a first person game, where you use gunz and not swordz, mocap would really only be used for simple things. Like NPC's walking around...

Well, maybe it would make cutscenes look kewler...

imported_van_HellSing
3rd Dec 2008, 09:18
What about stuff like the multi-kill aug? You know, the one where you "unleash a flurry of deadly martial arts moves" or something like that?

GmanPro
3rd Dec 2008, 09:20
I'm going to pretend that doesn't exist thank you very much. :thumbsup:

Jerion
3rd Dec 2008, 09:28
^^ Ahem....

ADS basically acted as that if you were dealing with commandos. So it's not too far off.

GmanPro
3rd Dec 2008, 09:40
A cool way to do it would be to use an Escape from Butcher Bay style of sneaking up behind someone and taking them out with ur hands. I'm not so sure about an actual hand to hand combat system... I'll reserve my final judgement for when the game comes out. Most likely in the form of me choosing a different aug :cool:

spm1138
3rd Dec 2008, 14:47
H2H combat with very strong mechs would be very effective looking at it logically.

If you can grab someone through walls you can certainly do damage with with your (metal) fists.

Check out the "Ghost In The Shell" movies and TV series. The cyborgs in that, particularly the more nimble ones are more than capable of disarming or destroying squishies and cyborgs with hand to hand combat.

It's generally a favourite trick of the major's but Batou has been known to tear off the odd arm. GiTS is a major visual reference point for them.

Now the engine and animation technology is actually capable of making this stuff look decent (UT99 clearly wasn't) they should (and from the knife/crusher hand augs are) look hard at it.

If they can come up with a decent control scheme it could really work.

Rid****'s control scheme for fighting wasn't bad... although I felt it made disarm moves slightly difficult to time / use.

Patakreps
4th Dec 2008, 00:49
It depends, both can be good but only if they are done well. Neither is better than the other.

Hell no! **** I really hope the game's style turns out to be at least somewhat realistic, that's one of the core values of a Deus Ex game. I really don't like that guy in the lab coat on one of the pictures. Doesn't appear to look like a real human being. :(

Are you afraid that Adam goes "Nomnomnom nomnom" while eating inventory stocked sandvichs in contextually activated third person animation ? :rasp:

It's a matter of taste of course but I like the lab guy's look because find it uncommon and interesting and I think that it participates in giving the game its own graphical identity.

Anyway, the thing to keep in mind is that the animations should not necessary look realistic but believable. ;)

Laokin
4th Dec 2008, 06:02
Also, don't forget Bioshock was not mocapped, the many faults that that game has, character animation and fluidity isn't one of them ;)


Beg to differ sir. It's a very well documented issue that if bioshock is receiving more than 30 fps you can notice with your own eyes that the fps for the animations is only 26. This means even with v-sync enabled, if your computer destroys bioshock like mine... you will always see a choppy animation.

It appears as if the animation LOD is set to low, like how most games render animations hundreds of feet from the camera.

Happens of the Xbox version too is simple areas where it runs obviously much smoother, and peaks the 30 fps bracket.

BTW, IMO mocap is implied to be in DX, after all they did say body language was key and that the player animations would be uber real.

:-) Here is to hope......:thumbsup:

K^2
4th Dec 2008, 13:54
Beg to differ sir. It's a very well documented issue that if bioshock is receiving more than 30 fps you can notice with your own eyes that the fps for the animations is only 26.
That sounds to me more like an issue with the animation engine than animations themselves. The key frame interpolation should be taking care of that, should it not?

Earendil
5th Dec 2008, 01:27
Mocap != great looking animation 100% of the time.

Ultimately, I don't care what they use, so long as the end product is awesome.