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Wildeheart
25th Nov 2008, 23:12
I know some elements of this have been covered in many people's posts but I haven't noticed a thread dedicated to this particular question. Namely, what references to DX1 would you like to see in DX3?

What I'm specifically getting at are what are termed in the media industry as "callbacks"; mentions or references that reward the fans by referring back to events, characters etc that were established earlier (or in DX3's case later, it is a prequel after all!). I guess this means that any used would have to be more clues to the future than references of the past but I'm all for as many links through to DX1 as possible.

I thought I'd kick off by pointing out one I'd love to see myself that occured to me just today:

I'd love to see a mission where the statue of liberty gets destroyed to bring it to the state it was in DX1. The game could go even deeper perhaps offering a differing view of the action depending on which faction you're fighting for. Maybe one side has you bomb the statue as a show of force, playing for the other side has you trying to defend the statue from destruction.

"The fall of liberty" would be an amazing image, the beautiful lady of hope becoming decimated as a prelude to the brave new world of DX1.

In fact while I'm at it it could be thematic of the game as a whole, given current world events and DX's political 1984 esque future vision. It'd even make for a great subtitle...

"Deus Ex 3: The Fall of Liberty"

Anyway that's all just my hyperbole on a little theory I had getting carried away, back to the topic question:

What parts of the previous Deus Ex games would you like to see in the new game?

spm1138
25th Nov 2008, 23:25
I think Silhouette blew the statue up?

That could work though. Maybe you're working with the Montreal branch.

Hmm.

I guess the Illuminati would be the thing that made the most make sense.

Also "Sam Carter" as a peacekeeper somewhere.

TBH though I'd hope the storyline to DX3 would stand up on it's own and deal with it's own themes. That might make the inclusion of too many callbacks a bit illogical.

Wildeheart
25th Nov 2008, 23:34
Just thought of another:

Manderley was a pretty old man in DX1, at a guess I'd say in his 50's which would make him in his 20's during DX3's time period. It'd be great to bump into him as a young idealistic government agent, perhaps he even started out as one of the good guys hoping to protect the innocent and fight corruption but as he aged he became the evil megalomaniac we know him to be by the time DX1 rolls around.

El_Bel
25th Nov 2008, 23:59
Manderley was not all that bad. He was a realist. He knew he could not oppose mj12 so he tried to protect the public as much as he could.

ZylonBane
26th Nov 2008, 00:19
Too many forward references would be just as awful in DX3 as they were in Star Wars episodes I-III.

However, I'll be very disappointed if there isn't at least one visit to Liberty Island. Even better if it's just a skippable sidequest map.

Wildeheart
26th Nov 2008, 00:51
Too many forward references would be just as awful in DX3 as they were in Star Wars episodes I-III.

However, I'll be very disappointed if there isn't at least one visit to Liberty Island. Even better if it's just a skippable sidequest map.

Don't think I'm getting at you dude, I was just so surprised to read this opinion from a heavy poster (and obviously big fan of DX). Why don't you want references to the other games? Surely the whole point of a prequel/sequel is a continuation of the overall plotlines etc.

I'm not saying I disagree with you at this point, just that I need more elaboration before I completely understand where you're coming from.

Wildeheart
26th Nov 2008, 00:55
Manderley was not all that bad. He was a realist. He knew he could not oppose mj12 so he tried to protect the public as much as he could.

He activated my brother's killswitch and he was happy to help Walton Simons when the guy wanted mine turned on as well!

He also ordered the assination of Lebedev personally and sent Anna and Gunther after me, I'd call the guy pretty bad! But then maybe that's just me, I find it impolite when people hit my killswitch! :nut:

Mr. Perfect
26th Nov 2008, 01:48
The liberty one is pretty good, and of course there are some key characters who might have been around during DX3.

I do wonder if ZB is on to something though. It always bugs me that DX2 tried to work so much of DX1 into it, or more specifically, all three DX1s. I say three, because the references in DX2 try to combine all three endings, and maybe some of the other choices, of DX1 into some universal future. The problem is that those endings where mutually exclusive, so it ends up getting them all wrong. Every time one of IW's weird homogenized references come up, I always stop and think "What?! That's not how it went down when I played DX1!". It might be possible that something similar could happen with DX3, only forwards in time.

Still, any way to work in Greasels would be a great nod to the series. They are a vague side note in Deus Ex, as all we seem to know about them is they where mutated from some bird. Chickens I think.

ZylonBane
26th Nov 2008, 01:50
Why don't you want references to the other games?
You might want to re-read what I actually said.

Obviously, as a prequel, DX3 will be required to exist in the same universe as the original Deus Ex. And it would make a lot of sense for the plot to involve one or more of the major organizations from DX. But when you go the DX2 route where half the major NPCs are characters from the previous game, that's just lazy and stupid... cheap fan service. Oh hey, it's young Gunther! And young Manderley! And young Simons! And young Bob Page! Ugh, no.

jordan_a
26th Nov 2008, 02:40
To stick to the subject, references/callbacks were numerous in MGS4. Some like it, others don't.

Personnally I would love to see some things like:

-"Suuuuuuuuure"
-"I spilt my drink"

or even some minor character's names like Louis Pan (by the way I had never seen this! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuN-N3ti3v4)).

References are good but they must be very discreet and minimal.

Wildeheart
26th Nov 2008, 03:09
You might want to re-read what I actually said.

Obviously, as a prequel, DX3 will be required to exist in the same universe as the original Deus Ex. And it would make a lot of sense for the plot to involve one or more of the major organizations from DX. But when you go the DX2 route where half the major NPCs are characters from the previous game, that's just lazy and stupid... cheap fan service. Oh hey, it's young Gunther! And young Manderley! And young Simons! And young Bob Page! Ugh, no.

Yeah I do agree with you there, I'm not interested in token callbacks. But I was thinking it would be pretty sweet to fill in some backstory on the guys like Smuggler etc. who didn't get much in the first game.

I'm totally not interested in some token could be anybody mission dispenser whose model just happens to resemble a young someone.

To reference your earlier point though I don't think it was the young characters that spoiled the Star Wars prequels but the fact they did things impossible to the story canon, (R2D2 has jet thrusters but then doesn't have them in EP4 onwards!? Anakin built C3P0 but doesn't recognise him when they meet on Lando's Sky City!? Obi-Wan doesn't recognise R2D2 in EP4!?)

That's what screwed Star Wars not the fact all the young characters were in there per se, it was that they did things they couldn't possibly have done if the story was gonna end up like it was set up in EP4 onwards.

At least that's my opinion anyway. It's not a total contradiction of your point regarding DX callback madness though, I was never really after token name-dropping etc, more some of the "memorable scenes" being things that could answer our questions about the greater DX universe.

Having young Manderly walk past you in a corridor and say "hi" or young Gunther developing a prediliction for orange soda doesn't fill in any backstory and would just be cheap as you say.

Wildeheart
26th Nov 2008, 03:14
I think Silhouette blew the statue up?

That could work though. Maybe you're working with the Montreal branch.

Hmm.

I guess the Illuminati would be the thing that made the most make sense.

Also "Sam Carter" as a peacekeeper somewhere.

TBH though I'd hope the storyline to DX3 would stand up on it's own and deal with it's own themes. That might make the inclusion of too many callbacks a bit illogical.

I love the Sam Carter idea! I'd forgotten he'd be old enough too, imagine if you find out Adam Jensen (I.E. you) were the person who killed his family! How's that for emotional immersion, I know for one I'd feel so bad it'd take months to forgive myself! ;)

Yargo
26th Nov 2008, 04:26
I love the Sam Carter idea! I'd forgotten he'd be old enough too, imagine if you find out Adam Jensen (I.E. you) were the person who killed his family! How's that for emotional immersion, I know for one I'd feel so bad it'd take months to forgive myself! ;)

Could be an option. Could be one of those, if you don't do it someone else will, situations.

rynn taylor
26th Nov 2008, 04:52
To stick to the subject, references/callbacks were numerous in MGS4. Some like it, others don't.

Personnally I would love to see some things like:

-"Suuuuuuuuure"
-"I spilt my drink"

or even some minor character's names like Louis Pan (by the way I had never seen this! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuN-N3ti3v4)).

References are good but they must be very discreet and minimal.

Thanks for the link jordan_a - i never thought of harming louis pan before! It seems DE still has suprises for me after so many years.

Jerion
26th Nov 2008, 05:23
^^ Are you kidding? I shot him with a GEP round.

i_is_a_moose
2nd Dec 2008, 19:45
^^ Are you kidding? I shot him with a GEP round.

If I laugh at that does it make me a bad person? I think I'm going to hell.

i_is_a_moose
2nd Dec 2008, 19:50
As far as callbacks go, Really, I'd like to see something about the original NSF movement, and maybe the early machinations of MJ12.
It would be an intrigueing turn of fate if it turns out that Adam Jensen's efforts to stop whatever the threat may be what actually initiates MJ12's rise.

Alright, that sounded good in my head, but now it just seems like a stupid Star Wars Episode III regurgiutation. Ugh, sorry 'bout that last bit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdJDAPDltMM

AaronJ
2nd Dec 2008, 21:49
What callbacks would you like to see in DX3 that reference DX1?

As much as possible. It's a prequel.

ZylonBane
3rd Dec 2008, 01:51
As much as possible. It's a prequel.
As much as possible, Aaron? Seriously? So you'd like a DX3 that revisits EVERY location and EVERY character from DX?

You do you have the slightest notion how monumentally, obnoxiously stupid that would be?

jordan_a
3rd Dec 2008, 02:01
As much as possible. It's a prequel.And turn DX3 into MGS4? No way.
The story must naturally lead to DX1 but don't forget that they will be several new Deus Ex so it might be long before we see anything significant from the first game! ;)

K^2
3rd Dec 2008, 03:15
I'd love to see a mission where the statue of liberty gets destroyed to bring it to the state it was in DX1.
That does not work with DX1 timeline. Statue of Liberty was bombed just before the DX1 events.

jc_lemon_lime
3rd Dec 2008, 03:46
You might want to re-read what I actually said.

Obviously, as a prequel, DX3 will be required to exist in the same universe as the original Deus Ex. And it would make a lot of sense for the plot to involve one or more of the major organizations from DX. But when you go the DX2 route where half the major NPCs are characters from the previous game, that's just lazy and stupid... cheap fan service. Oh hey, it's young Gunther! And young Manderley! And young Simons! And young Bob Page! Ugh, no.

i think it might be nice for one or two of them to have cameos, but i agree that it shouldn't turn into a class reunion. it would be kind of funny to see a teenage tracer tong hawking 2 credit bootleg DVDs on a street corner in shanghai though:D

MaxxQ1
3rd Dec 2008, 04:40
I think Silhouette blew the statue up?

That could work though. Maybe you're working with the Montreal branch.

Hmm.

I may be wrong on this, and I'm willing to accept it if I am, but wasn't the story that Silhouette bombed the Statue a fabrication by MJ12/Page/Somebody to allow the formation of UNATCO to combat "terrorists"?

I know that Alex mentions that Silhouette did it when you get close to the destroyed head of the statue, but I thought somewhere later in the game (talking with Chad, maybe?) you find out that it was a frame-up to discredit Silhouette.




TBH though I'd hope the storyline to DX3 would stand up on it's own and deal with it's own themes. That might make the inclusion of too many callbacks a bit illogical.

Agreed.


That does not work with DX1 timeline. Statue of Liberty was bombed just before the DX1 events.

Maybe so, but I always got the impression that UNATCO had been around for a few years, at least long enough to get a decent organization set up, and get a few classes through the Academy. Gunther and Anna always gave me impression that they'd been with the organization for quite awhile, and knowing how beauracracies work, it wouldn't suprise me if it took about ten years after the bombing for UNATCO to actually be officially formed and in operation.

Besides, who's to say the game won't take place over a decade or so, with the ending (or something close to the ending) resulting in the destruction of the statue? I'm not actually thinking this will be the case, but I could come up with a reasonable scenario where the conspiracies being referred to in the magazine articles we've seen could lead up to - or hint at - Bob Page getting booted from the Illuminati, starting out his Grand Plan (maybe just mentions of him in papers or online in various locations), the very early stages of the formation of MJ12 as we know it in DX, and other things.

Just hints like that would be good, as long as they're not IN YOUR FACE hints. Things people who haven't played DX might not realize were hints towards the storyline of DX, until they actually PLAY DX and realize that the hints were there. Of course, there's a thin line between subtle and blatant if this is the route (or something similar) EM are going. I hope they can pull off subtle.

GmanPro
3rd Dec 2008, 05:22
I think it should be really subtle. Like maybe you see some schematics on (in?) a datacube for some new millitary bots. And they look just like the ones from DX1.

Jerion
3rd Dec 2008, 05:26
^^ or some concept designs that are recognizable as such. :)

SemiAnonymous
3rd Dec 2008, 05:31
I demand a vending machine that will only give Lemon-Lime flavored soda, despite advertisments of Orange on the front.

GmanPro
3rd Dec 2008, 05:53
I want big low resolution 4:3 ratio TV's with the news constantly on and playing the same nonsensical sound over and over again. :cool:

Igoe
3rd Dec 2008, 06:03
Oh man, I know you're semi joking, but I would LOVE that. TO have a TV looping endless jibberish on the news would be INSANELY awesome. It didn't have to be a gif, it could be rendered like a source TV, but as long as it was incomprehensible jibberish, it'd be pretty cool.

To me, at least.

K^2
3rd Dec 2008, 06:07
It'd be better to have an actual studio where the reporters sit and say gibberish to camera on an endless loop.

GmanPro
3rd Dec 2008, 06:22
I loved that room in the UNATCO hq... :D

Just kick back and enjoy some lemon lime soda.

imported_van_HellSing
3rd Dec 2008, 06:26
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5NO0_qIunE

Igoe
3rd Dec 2008, 06:27
I loved that room in the UNATCO hq... :D

Just kick back and enjoy some lemon lime soda.

Man, me too. That's what I'm TALKIN about. Immersion. If it's actual speech you can tell when it loops, and it gets boring.

GmanPro
3rd Dec 2008, 06:31
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5NO0_qIunE

Lol. It said video not available in your country... Never seen that one b4. :scratch:

Psychopomp
3rd Dec 2008, 15:11
So...

There's a guy named Gunther who comes into the local Comic shop.
He likes Sprite.
He still doesn't understand why we keep handing him Orange.

That is all.