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Sertorius
2nd Oct 2013, 21:56
Hi all,

Long time Legacy of Kain fan. Been playing since the beginning.

I'm thrilled that a new game is coming out, and I think the changes to the atmosphere can all be reconciled, just as previous inconsistencies in previous games were reconciled eventually.

One thing I would like to see, however, are the other vampire clans. I want the Zephonim, Rahabim, and Malchahim to be crawling around Nosgoth along with their brethren. Are there any current plans to add them as well? If not, why?

Zimitry
2nd Oct 2013, 23:21
I think the same too, we need the rest of the offsprings. I'd love to see how the Rahabims and Zephonim play out.

ZeroFernir
3rd Oct 2013, 00:23
I would love to play Zephonim... What would be their powers? ^^

Nosguard
3rd Oct 2013, 05:05
I think it's safe to say that they're holding some of the clans back for future updates. A F2P game needs to have a steady stream of updates to keep the community interested. For example; I would assume the Rahabims would get introduced in an update that showcases new battlefields that introduce water mechanics.

Also, I was assuming the third vampire (Razielim, and Turelim being the other two) in the announcement video was a Zephonim; since he was seen climbing up a wall with ease.

The_Hylden
3rd Oct 2013, 05:10
They say in the Q&A that they are going to add more classes. Classes equals different clans on the vampire side, more human factions on the human side.

We definitely asked about all of the clans at the event to debut the game and they were with lots of wry smiles. They might not add them all, and the Rahabim seem especially hard for them to possibly adapt because of their very gift is also almost unfair. If they can remain in water, and you have a lot of water in the arena, etc., then it's hard to make the humans competitive. At least that was the reasoning. We brought up using sunlight on them, maybe focusing it with mirrors, or using spells, or something. Anyway, they're thinking about the clans.I hope too for them all, but we'll see. Not all of them have to be using their abilities we've seen by SR1, either, as long as they're in there.

Bazielim
3rd Oct 2013, 19:10
Also, I was assuming the third vampire (Razielim, and Turelim being the other two) in the announcement video was a Zephonim; since he was seen climbing up a wall with ease.

It's Dumahim; all of the vampires can climb walls with ease, but it's more to do with sheer power and claws than a developed climbing ability.:)
I'd hope Zephonim would be one of the classes added later.

TheMaskedFeeder
3rd Oct 2013, 19:17
As the Hylden said they did mention that they were already developing and testing new classes, they either said 3 per side or just 3 cant remember.

Zimitry
3rd Oct 2013, 19:22
Well, the Rahabim can be inmune to water or receive only small diadvantages, that's already a good strategic pasive power.

Perhaps the Zephonim can be agile and fast creatures, slim and more hack and slash type. The other vampires climb alrady, perhaps make them more skilled on that part. Raziel got the ability from Zephon, while Kain had it already, perhaps they were the first to develope it, so they'd be better climbers.

ZeroFernir
3rd Oct 2013, 19:35
Zephon is actually my favourite character. Yeah, no kain, no raziel, no Moebius for me. Zephon is cool. I would love to play Zephon, he could be a kind of rogue from D&D, you know? a assassin that comes behind you and take our head off the body =P

Vampmaster
3rd Oct 2013, 19:45
When we asked about the Zephonim, the devs commented that the wall crawling wasn't the only ability they could implement for them. That suggests to me that they were thinking of doing something with their webbing.

I guess they could have some sort of poison, too. Although, it might be worth saving things like that for the Rahabim (who had that venom projectile in SR1), since the Rahabim don't have that many options to choose from. Their old dev code name was Aluka, which supposedly means leech. So maybe the Rahabim could have a drain attack.

ZeroFernir
3rd Oct 2013, 19:50
When we asked about the Zephonim, the devs commented that the wall crawling wasn't the only ability they could implement for them. That suggests to me that they were thinking of doing something with their webbing.

I guess they could have some sort of poison, too. Although, it might be worth saving things like that for the Rahabim (who had that venom projectile in SR1), since the Rahabim don't have that many options to choose from. Their old dev code name was Aluka, which supposedly means leech. So maybe the Rahabim could have a drain attack.

Vampmaster and his great ideas =P cannot dissagree with anything of that.
But what about melchiahim, then? for me, he was the one who would give the biggest trouble to the devs...
I think that they should be the tankers, actually... Melchiah have such a large man's face...

Vampmaster
3rd Oct 2013, 20:25
Vampmaster and his great ideas =P cannot dissagree with anything of that.
But what about melchiahim, then? for me, he was the one who would give the biggest trouble to the devs...
I think that they should be the tankers, actually... Melchiah have such a large man's face...

There's some discussion of the Melchiahim here:
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7276

I can't remember who thought of the skin stealing idea, but I wanted to make sure it was recorded somewhere.

ZeroFernir
3rd Oct 2013, 20:44
It would become like a Spy form tf2... that would be really nice =D maybe the tunelling is a silly idea, but that can be developed later.

Mnkymn89
4th Oct 2013, 01:05
reading your ideas are getting me even more excited for this game! i really hope they do implement the other clans and that they use this thread as a reference. it does make me wonder what human classes they could add, i've seen an idea of a magic user class around the forum which sounds very interesting but i cant think of another class they could add

ZeroFernir
4th Oct 2013, 01:19
I would love humans going rogue too... I dunno, maybe a knife thrower or something...

Raziel1228
5th Oct 2013, 01:21
They should do a human assassin class. I know all the clans would be added in due time but I have a few ideas they can do.
1. They can have skins for the classes. For instance the Razielims have devolved due to the absence of Raziel, but what if we got a skin of them BEFORE that happened?(Since I know a lot of people don't really like the way the sentinel class looks.)
2.In some levels the time of the day can change or perhaps the clouds can shift. Light can shine through and be a possible map hazard for any vampire.
3. Some levels should have water for the Rahabim clan. The water could mean instant death(or a small burn dot effect if the water is shallow) for the vampires but the Rahabim can swim in it and use it to go around the city(such as a sewer or some wells).

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 03:15
They should do a human assassin class. I know all the clans would be added in due time but I have a few ideas they can do.
1. They can have skins for the classes. For instance the Razielims have devolved due to the absence of Raziel, but what if we got a skin of them BEFORE that happened?(Since I know a lot of people don't really like the way the sentinel class looks.)
2.In some levels the time of the day can change or perhaps the clouds can shift. Light can shine through and be a possible map hazard for any vampire.
3. Some levels should have water for the Rahabim clan. The water could mean instant death(or a small burn dot effect if the water is shallow) for the vampires but the Rahabim can swim in it and use it to go around the city(such as a sewer or some wells).

I think Rahabim should have some non-water related abilities... it would be too much agains the vampiric game.

Raziel1228
5th Oct 2013, 03:22
I think Rahabim should have some non-water related abilities... it would be too much agains the vampiric game.

Hmmm well to be fair the only reason they were swimming in the water WAS because of their mutations. The clans all need their own special abilities like flying or tanks or stealth. I honestly think it would be better to give the tyrant class to the Dumahim and give the Turliem a ranged vampire telekinetic class. Like maybe a force push or control the environment around them a bit while still having a decent melee. The Rahabim(although I believe the Zephonim would be better fit for it) could take the stealth since I see their clan not having any specialty at all.

Vampmaster
5th Oct 2013, 04:37
When were the Dumahim ever bigger or stronger that the Turelim? SE aren't going to make and ranged vampire class, because it would contradict their theme of a melee team vs a vanged team. Having the primed-for-pouncing mode doesn't make the Dumahim a stealth class either. They are still the skilled warriors of the clans.

Raziel1228
5th Oct 2013, 04:53
When were the Dumahim ever bigger or stronger that the Turelim? SE aren't going to make and ranged vampire class, because it would contradict their theme of a melee team vs a vanged team. Having the primed-for-pouncing mode doesn't make the Dumahim a stealth class either. They are still the skilled warriors of the clans.

The description of the clan Dumahim I quote
"The Reavers of Clan Dumahim are dexterous and stealthy predators, whose only focus is the subjugation of Humankind. As trained and talented killers, Reavers are both calculated and poised. Swift, silent and smart, these Vampires are natural hunters who can out-think and out-run the opposition."
It makes you believe that they are stealthy. Obviously no vampire would want to be out in a conflict for long except maybe the tyrant but I hope they limit his stealth so they can specialize clan Zephonim in it. Zephonim can have a skill like if they are on the wall they stealth after a certain amount of time(not completely invisible but like a shaded version which would be harder to see in those dark places). Each clan and class should have a specialization or they will all feel the same.

Nosguard
5th Oct 2013, 06:18
It would become like a Spy form tf2... that would be really nice =D maybe the tunelling is a silly idea, but that can be developed later.

We are getting flamethrowers in Nosgoth for the humans. If the Melchiahim act like TF2 Spies... we might get spy checking in Nosgoth. This seems silly to me, anyone else?

Raziel1228
5th Oct 2013, 06:40
We are getting flamethrowers in Nosgoth for the humans. If the Melchiahim act like TF2 Spies... we might get spy checking in Nosgoth. This seems silly to me, anyone else?

I don't see how the Melchiahim would be spies. Well maybe since their leader's skin was swen on or had stitch marks im guessing that after they kill someone they can drag away and when they feed they can flay his skin to cover their own? Its an idea albeit a weird one. Melchiahim seem more like shock troops. They burrow in the ground like they did in SR1 and pop out to surprise attack you. I think that would be more suited for the Melchiahim than stealth or spying.

Vampmaster
5th Oct 2013, 12:27
The description of the clan Dumahim I quote
"The Reavers of Clan Dumahim are dexterous and stealthy predators, whose only focus is the subjugation of Humankind. As trained and talented killers, Reavers are both calculated and poised. Swift, silent and smart, these Vampires are natural hunters who can out-think and out-run the opposition."
It makes you believe that they are stealthy. Obviously no vampire would want to be out in a conflict for long except maybe the tyrant but I hope they limit his stealth so they can specialize clan Zephonim in it. Zephonim can have a skill like if they are on the wall they stealth after a certain amount of time(not completely invisible but like a shaded version which would be harder to see in those dark places). Each clan and class should have a specialization or they will all feel the same.

Ah, so that's why everyone's been calling them "sneaky scouts". I was basing my opinion of what I'd seen in the demo I played on the community day. The primed-for-pounce (essentially Kain's super jump from BO2), had the double purpose that you were a bit harder to see, but then again, I think all clans could do a some sneaking if they wanted to. None really specialised in it.

The Dumahim where the first vampire class we were introduced to as they were the easiest to get used to. I think they might be better described as the jack of all trades. It would make sense that the best warriors would know the most techniques. SE have said there will be lots of ways to customise the abilities of all classes and I think armor based abilities would suit the Dumahim well and maybe they should be the class that gets to use melee weapons.


We are getting flamethrowers in Nosgoth for the humans. If the Melchiahim act like TF2 Spies... we might get spy checking in Nosgoth. This seems silly to me, anyone else?

The disguise ability is just one ability. The only way it would become a floodgate for other TF2 roles/abilities is if they're using it as a template, which I don't think they are. I can't say for sure because I've only seen a few youtube videos of TF2, but from what I did see, the only thing Nosgoth had in common with TF2 was that they were both 3rd person team-deathmatch. The fighting styles and the pace of the game looked totally different.

Raziel1228
5th Oct 2013, 12:53
Ah, so that's why everyone's been calling them "sneaky scouts". I was basing my opinion of what I'd seen in the demo I played on the community day. The primed-for-pounce (essentially Kain's super jump from BO2), had the double purpose that you were a bit harder to see, but then again, I think all clans could do a some sneaking if they wanted to. None really specialised in it.

The Dumahim where the first vampire class we were introduced to as they were the easiest to get used to. I think they might be better described as the jack of all trades. It would make sense that the best warriors would know the most techniques. SE have said there will be lots of ways to customise the abilities of all classes and I think armor based abilities would suit the Dumahim well and maybe they should be the class that gets to use melee weapons.



The disguise ability is just one ability. The only way it would become a floodgate for other TF2 roles/abilities is if they're using it as a template, which I don't think they are. I can't say for sure because I've only seen a few youtube videos of TF2, but from what I did see, the only thing Nosgoth had in common with TF2 was that they were both 3rd person team-deathmatch. The fighting styles and the pace of the game looked totally different.

To be honest the Dumahim description has been a front line fighter. The most common vampire in Nosgoth. The description on the lore page makes them look stealthily. While vampires are usually always trying to be sneaky when you compared the reaver to the tyrant and sentinel you know the tyrant is going to be rampaging about while the sentinel takes to the skies. If the Dumahim are made to be jack-of-all trades then that would be better imo. A spy would be pretty pointless in this game. Theres no objective game-type we know so far. It will be Team-death match so everyone is running around trying to kill so that would be a bit pointless. I think the burrow would be better for the Melchiahim than stealth. Also you see the reaver with a gauntlet in the picture of the lore page so I guess they wear that as a weapon in addition to their claws.
Dumahim=Basic classic vampire
Turliems=Tanks and shock troops
Sentinels=Aerial domination
Zephonim=Stealth troops
As for the Rahabims I have no clue for them and the Melchiahim I can only think of their burrow as a good ability or maybe something to do with their decaying flesh. Thats how I see the clans. They are all different and need to feel different. Other-wise its like playing a card game and switching out just 1 card in your deck for another. Its the same thing with a difference you may not even see.

Rahabthesecond
5th Oct 2013, 13:09
Maybe a Sarafan Spearman like human class? Can't really fight a vampire in 1 on 1 but can keep him at distance and allow the shooters to do the damage or finish of a single vampire in a group? I just don't like the idea that only vampires can do close combat.

Otherwise: As the development progresses we will perhaps see vampires that haven't been in the series at all to alow greater variety.

Ps: Guess there is no chance that we will see Hylden in the game?

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 15:20
Maybe a Sarafan Spearman like human class? Can't really fight a vampire in 1 on 1 but can keep him at distance and allow the shooters to do the damage or finish of a single vampire in a group? I just don't like the idea that only vampires can do close combat.

Otherwise: As the development progresses we will perhaps see vampires that haven't been in the series at all to alow greater variety.

Ps: Guess there is no chance that we will see Hylden in the game?

No melee for the Humans, please. Sarafans should have some other abilities. And no, no chance for hylden in the game...

Reidbynature
5th Oct 2013, 15:36
I'd rather not see any Sarafan in the game. They are long dead. However I wouldn't be against melee human characters. The games clearly had humans who would take on both humans and Raziel. So the only thing I see making it difficult is the game's basic premise of humans = ranged, vampires = melee.

Though personally I think that could be swapped over with additional classes because I think some of the vampire clans not present could lend themselves to ranged combat. Either that or make ranged versions of vampires like the Turelim and give them their TK blast.

Or you could have human vampire worshippers on the vampire's side. They could use a polearm like they did in SR1.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 16:17
I'd rather not see any Sarafan in the game. They are long dead. However I wouldn't be against melee human characters. The games clearly had humans who would take on both humans and Raziel. So the only thing I see making it difficult is the game's basic premise of humans = ranged, vampires = melee.

Though personally I think that could be swapped over with additional classes because I think some of the vampire clans not present could lend themselves to ranged combat. Either that or make ranged versions of vampires like the Turelim and give them their TK blast.

Or you could have human vampire worshippers on the vampire's side. They could use a polearm like they did in SR1.

They are long dead, yes, but not entirelly, I think. A complete genocide is something really hard to accomplish. Maybe there are some Sarafan wanderers somewhere. And the thing that I are liking at most in the game is it's basic premisse of the game of ranged x melee...

Reidbynature
5th Oct 2013, 16:32
They are long dead, yes, but not entirelly, I think. A complete genocide is something really hard to accomplish. Maybe there are some Sarafan wanderers somewhere. And the thing that I are liking at most in the game is it's basic premisse of the game of ranged x melee...

It doesn't really have anything to do with genocide. It's an order, not a ethnic group. The Sarafan order doesn't really exist anymore. I could imagine their legends inspiring human descendants, but the order itself is most likely gone completely.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 16:49
It doesn't really have anything to do with genocide. It's an order, not a ethnic group. The Sarafan order doesn't really exist anymore. I could imagine their legends inspiring human descendants, but the order itself is most likely gone completely.

Most likely, but not necessarelly.

Lord_Aevum
5th Oct 2013, 16:54
The Sarafan (both versions) are consistently described as a dead faction in the Soul Reaver era, and in my opinion it would be lame and unnecessary to contradict this fact which the previous five games asserted time and time again.

The_Hylden
5th Oct 2013, 17:02
Exactly. I like the Sarafan, their order. We have seen the real order of them and they existed 500 years before BO1. It was redundant of the BO2 team to revive them in BO2. And they really created a bastardized version of them in that game. If there are any who follow that particular version of the order left, they shouldn't be calling themselves Sarafan. The Sarafan in BO2 were as bad to humans as the thugs in the game, worse in some instances. So, humanity should no longer feel a flocking toward anyone with that as their title. Then again, I guess it could be an interesting dilemma to choose the enemy of your enemy at that point. You could probably make anything work, if done right, but maybe as a fan addition to characters created, or something in the future...

Now, some order based on the original version, using its principles as a guiding light, but still never calling themselves that, might not be so bad. I wouldn't mind references to such, like in their Lore background.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 17:18
Exactly. I like the Sarafan, their order. We have seen the real order of them and they existed 500 years before BO1. It was redundant of the BO2 team to revive them in BO2. And they really created a bastardized version of them in that game. If there are any who follow that particular version of the order left, they shouldn't be calling themselves Sarafan. The Sarafan in BO2 were as bad to humans as the thugs in the game, worse in some instances. So, humanity should no longer feel a flocking toward anyone with that as their title. Then again, I guess it could be an interesting dilemma to choose the enemy of your enemy at that point. You could probably make anything work, if done right, but maybe as a fan addition to characters created, or something in the future...

Now, some order based on the original version, using its principles as a guiding light, but still never calling themselves that, might not be so bad. I wouldn't mind references to such, like in their Lore background.

I couldn't agree more. But the fact of Razielim going in the vampire side is almost the same as BO2 Sarafans in human side (not saying that they should be there).

LordNekronom
5th Oct 2013, 17:30
The Sarafan were best represented in their original incarnation in SR2, BO2 just ruined it, well quite frankly BO2 ruined lots of things, Ironically the Hylden are better represented, in my opinion, in Defiance, they feel like they should be there, the only good thing in BO2 was the Seer and Janos, everything else is a mockery of what was established in the previous games, Vorador is now a sort of caring father figure, and undergoes a complete facial and personality makeover, the Hylden are nothing more than corpses who engage in politics and use humans (when before they used demons ), Kain not only lets Umah steal the nexus stone from him, doubtful someone as cautious as him would be so careless, and then he laments about how she left him 'alone' .....Not really Kain-like.

Anyway, back on track, Hylden don't make sense to be added in the game at this time, except maybe as a possessed human class, they were banished again at the end of BO2 and haven't been seen since, and that wasn't even in the SR timeline in wish Nosgoth takes place ( PS for those who think the statues in the art of a vampire city are Hylden I say look again and compare the Headdress they have to a razielim from the trailer, one is wearing the exact same headdress ) .

Humans in melee doesn't make much sense at this time, Sarafan had a history of hunting vampires, and were a much more established force than the current resurgent human threat, and as Raziel pointed out the vampires of that time 'weren't the uncontested predators' of the Empire era. Humans need tricks and tactics to win.

For a new vampire class well a new clan is hard to balance, BUT what about a subfaction of the current clans? Maybe a Turelim with higher telekinesis and more advanced mutations (ears) to explain it.

Reidbynature
5th Oct 2013, 17:30
I couldn't agree more. But the fact of Razielim going in the vampire side is almost the same as BO2 Sarafans in human side (not saying that they should be there).

The fate of the Razielim was always a bit ambiguous and the devs said they had yet to reveal their ultimate fate. In the case of the Sarafan there was never really anything that cast doubt on the Sarafan order's extinction.

LordNekronom
5th Oct 2013, 17:35
BO 2 Sarafan shouldn't even be taken into consideration, Nosgoth happens during the SR 1 timeline, Hylden weren't even known at that time, maybe they could have a small influence like a corrupted human class with magic powers or something, but no more.

Reidbynature
5th Oct 2013, 17:41
Humans in melee doesn't make much sense at this time, Sarafan had a history of hunting vampires, and were a much more established force than the current resurgent human threat, and as Raziel pointed out the vampires of that time 'weren't the uncontested predators' of the Empire era. Humans need tricks and tactics to win.

Though it's some time before Raziel's rebirth I don't see why they couldn't have vampire worshipers back then too. I imagine they would still have had them back then and eventually turn some into vampires also.


For a new vampire class well a new clan is hard to balance, BUT what about a subfaction of the current clans? Maybe a Turelim with higher telekinesis and more advanced mutations (ears) to explain it.

I'm sure there's much room for showing a subfaction that is more developed in their devolution than what there already is. However if the war for Nosgoth lasts for a long time then I would think it would be reasonable to add more devolved versions of the vampire clans to the game.



BO 2 Sarafan shouldn't even be taken into consideration, Nosgoth happens during the SR 1 timeline, Hylden weren't even known at that time, maybe they could have a small influence like a corrupted human class with magic powers or something, but no more.

True. There's no point in adding an overt Hylden presence as it would be essentially lore bending. There's no evidence they had a presence in this time period so adding them would be basically ignoring that. I'm not too sure on a possessed human class because even if you were to keep it secret you'd still have to explain their presence and purpose and why that had no consequence that we could see previously.

Raziel1228
5th Oct 2013, 17:51
I think we should have a class for the humans that has some melee capabilities. Like some have said the Sarafan have long been dead;I bet none of the humans even remember who they are. What I think they can do to incorporate the Sarafan in a way is skins for the humans. Like Sarafan knight armour and such. I think some Sarafan armours for the humans would be very nice for players to feel different from each other. Hell think of a skin for the Razielim before they devolved. That would sell like crazy(depending if everything is acquired through levels or in-game micro-transactions.) Maybe even a skin for the Razliem where they look like the ancient vampires with angel wings instead. Theres a lot they can do at this point for the character models and how to work with them.

Rahabthesecond
5th Oct 2013, 18:12
Wow....looks like I started something here...
The important word in my first post was the Sarafan spearman LIKE class, not an actual Sarafan class, acting like those spearman from Defiance. Even better fitting would be some "specialized" Vampire hunter class (Specialized in the sense that they were actually trained for that in their background different than for example the Alcemists who seem to have started to fight because of the need to do so) using an iron collar attached to a spear to catch a vampire and keep it at bay.
As Lord Nekronom points out humans need tactics to win. But different to him I come to the conclusion that leaving out close combat (and perhaps not even carrying cc arms for the emergency) is more or less the opposite of a sane tactic. Having a guy with a toweshield who is able to keep an angry vampire away from the shooters untill they managed to pick an other arrow and aim sounds more of a tactic to me.

Hylden: Even if I would realy like them ingame (at least if there is a good explanation) real Hylden seem to be a bad choice. Possesed humans might work if it's clear from the beginning that they didn't reach their goal during the events of tis game and therefore have no influence on timeline etc.

LordNekronom
5th Oct 2013, 18:34
Wow....looks like I started something here...
The important word in my first post was the Sarafan spearman LIKE class, not an actual Sarafan class, acting like those spearman from Defiance. Even better fitting would be some "specialized" Vampire hunter class (Specialized in the sense that they were actually trained for that in their background different than for example the Alcemists who seem to have started to fight because of the need to do so) using an iron collar attached to a spear to catch a vampire and keep it at bay.
As Lord Nekronom points out humans need tactics to win. But different to him I come to the conclusion that leaving out close combat (and perhaps not even carrying cc arms for the emergency) is more or less the opposite of a sane tactic. Having a guy with a toweshield who is able to keep an angry vampire away from the shooters untill they managed to pick an other arrow and aim sounds more of a tactic to me.

Hylden: Even if I would realy like them ingame (at least if there is a good explanation) real Hylden seem to be a bad choice. Possesed humans might work if it's clear from the beginning that they didn't reach their goal during the events of tis game and therefore have no influence on timeline etc.

Actually I meant not having a full blown melee class as in both offense and defense, think of a Human counterpart to the Turelim, a class that focuses on shields for defense and crowd control or a spear using warrior who focuses on offense, and maybe could throw the spear at the cost of loosing dmg until he finds a weapons rack or something could work, but the human chars in LoK who went into melee often had both defense and offense, considering the strenght of the vampires at this era the option of a human going full melee and being a match for a vamp isn't a realistic option, so melee should be a last resort either high burst dmg or uber defense., though shields wouldn't work since the vamps can just go around you and maul the archers/casters, but a chain using class that grabs and holds down a vampire for a time ( this interaction can be broken if the vampire has enough stamina/resource or another vampire hits the human ) is plausible, but it would be a specialized support/defensive class in that case as it would require another human to kill said imobilized vamp.
Also I would like to remember everyone as to how vampires are killed in the SR1 era: burned,impaled, immersed in water and exposure to sunlight for fledgelings. So swords and general melee used before on other generations of vampires would have little effect. The vampire generation sired by Kain is considered in every aspect of the lore to be the most powerful, aside from the Ancient vampires.

Lord_Aevum
5th Oct 2013, 18:38
Humans in melee doesn't make much sense at this time

Mmm, well, I think Soul Reaver would very much beg to differ:




These big four-pronged spears used by vampire hunters to pin down devolved Dumahim corpses in the Ruined City, and three of these man-sized stakes required to pierce Dumah's heart.

Vampmaster
5th Oct 2013, 18:42
SE have already they want Nosgoth to be one team of ranged vs one team of melee. It's one of their main selling points. Adding a human melee class will only break that rule.

Although, I just realised that having wooden stakes would be less of a problem because the vampires could just break them in half if the humans tried to use those up close.

Raziel1228
5th Oct 2013, 18:49
Actually I meant not having a full blown melee class as in both offense and defense, think of a Human counterpart to the Turelim, a class that focuses on shields for defense and crowd control or a spear using warrior who focuses on offense, and maybe could throw the spear at the cost of loosing dmg until he finds a weapons rack or something could work, but the human chars in LoK who went into melee often had both defense and offense, considering the strenght of the vampires at this era the option of a human going full melee and being a match for a vamp isn't a realistic option, so melee should be a last resort either high burst dmg or uber defense., though shields wouldn't work since the vamps can just go around you and maul the archers/casters, but a chain using class that grabs and holds down a vampire for a time ( this interaction can be broken if the vampire has enough stamina/resource or another vampire hits the human ) is plausible, but it would be a specialized support/defensive class in that case as it would require another human to kill said imobilized vamp.
Also I would like to remember everyone as to how vampires are killed in the SR1 era: burned,impaled, immersed in water and exposure to sunlight for fledgelings. So swords and general melee used before on other generations of vampires would have little effect. The vampire generation sired by Kain is considered in every aspect of the lore to be the most powerful, aside from the Ancient vampires.

I agree the vampires either need fire, impalement, water, or decapitation of the head(I think on that last one). A spear/javelin/lance/pole-arm would be the only real choice to kill a vampire in melee. I feel as though there should be a melee class( maybe not oriented on melee but have the capacity like a small axe or something to defend with)since they are facing vampires. They know that close-quarters is where they dominate but staying ranged and kiting won't work forever.

Reidbynature
5th Oct 2013, 18:50
These big four-pronged spears used by vampire hunters to pin down devolved Dumahim corpses in the Ruined City, and three of these man-sized stakes required to pierce Dumah's heart.

Yeah. There is good evidence that humans are able to engage vampires in melee throughout the series. I'm not sure who said it (it may have been Daniel Cabuco), but someone did mention that the vampires have a lot of weaknesses. In some cases it's arguably better to be human. Though I'm not saying it would be a totally even fight. Vampires are obviously stronger and have supernatural abilities, but it's not impossible for humans to engage them in melee.


SE have already they want Nosgoth to be one team of ranged vs one team of melee. It's one of their main selling points. Adding a human melee class will only break that rule.

Maybe, but if they had vampire ranged classes to balance that out then it would really be breaking the rule. You could just set it up so that you can only have one side ranged and one side melee.

Vampmaster
5th Oct 2013, 19:03
I don't know. It could be difficult to pull of. It would either half the choice of characters players have to choose from or half the ability set. I mean you can ask the devs, but I don't think they'd go for it.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 19:10
Maybe, but if they had vampire ranged classes to balance that out then it would really be breaking the rule. You could just set it up so that you can only have one side ranged and one side melee.

I think it would be only a lack of consistence on the game. What makes the game unique and special for the gamers who doesn't know the series is the idea of a melee x range combat (I can tell this, I convinced a lot of gamers who doesn't even know the series to try it out because of that). It is the main point of the game, and taking it off by adding one class that is the opposite of it's factions it's pointless.

Reidbynature
5th Oct 2013, 19:11
I don't know. It could be difficult to pull of. It would either half the choice of characters players have to choose from or half the ability set. I mean you can ask the devs, but I don't think they'd go for it.

I don't follow your thinking. How would it half the choice? I don't see why their inclusion as an unlockable during some matches means that the normal classes are somehow taken away.



I think it would be only a lack of consistence on the game. What makes the game unique and special for the gamers who doesn't know the series is the idea of a melee x range combat (I can tell this, I convinced a lot of gamers who doesn't even know the series to try it out because of that). It is the main point of the game, and taking it off by adding one class that is the opposite of it's factions it's pointless.

I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying they should go against their melee vs ranged. I'm saying they can still keep the melee vs ranged, but it doesn't always need to be humans always ranged and vampires always melee. I'm saying they could keep that core aspect, but that they could add melee humans and ranged vampires and still restrict one team to melee and one team to ranged.

That and I don't see the harm of adding human vampire worshipers as a melee class on the vampires side. They fit within the lore as clearly shown in Soul Reaver.

If it's just about melee vs ranged then I don't see the difficulty with those suggestions. If it's specifically about vampires being melee and humans being ranged then fine, I think it's arbitrarily restrictive in that case, but that's their prerogative.

Lord_Aevum
5th Oct 2013, 19:21
I see no horrific game-breaking issue in perhaps having one human melee class and one vampire ranged class, the rest all ranged and all melee respectively. In terms of the storyline/lore/world, it would only make sense. Even putting the facts from Soul Reaver aside, these are entire races of beings we're talking about, full of variety. They're not universally going to resort to one mode of attack.

Raziel1228
5th Oct 2013, 19:36
I don't follow your thinking. How would it half the choice? I don't see why their inclusion as an unlockable during some matches means that the normal classes are somehow taken away.




I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying they should go against their melee vs ranged. I'm saying they can still keep the melee vs ranged, but it doesn't always need to be humans always ranged and vampires always melee. I'm saying they could keep that core aspect, but that they could add melee humans and ranged vampires and still restrict one team to melee and one team to ranged.

That and I don't see the harm of adding human vampire worshipers as a melee class on the vampires side. They fit within the lore as clearly shown in Soul Reaver.

If it's just about melee vs ranged then I don't see the difficulty with those suggestions. If it's specifically about vampires being melee and humans being ranged then fine, I think it's arbitrarily restrictive in that case, but that's their prerogative.

I was honestly hoping for humans vs the clans only. But there should be a melee class for the humans that I strongly believe. It would take more skill than his/her ranged counter-parts but hell it can be done.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 19:54
I think you misunderstand. I'm not saying they should go against their melee vs ranged. I'm saying they can still keep the melee vs ranged, but it doesn't always need to be humans always ranged and vampires always melee. I'm saying they could keep that core aspect, but that they could add melee humans and ranged vampires and still restrict one team to melee and one team to ranged.

That and I don't see the harm of adding human vampire worshipers as a melee class on the vampires side. They fit within the lore as clearly shown in Soul Reaver.

If it's just about melee vs ranged then I don't see the difficulty with those suggestions. If it's specifically about vampires being melee and humans being ranged then fine, I think it's arbitrarily restrictive in that case, but that's their prerogative.

No I didn't misunderstood anything. I've got your idea. And I am not saying that it is against the lore or anything. What I am saing is that is is against the whole idea of the game.


I was honestly hoping for humans vs the clans only. But there should be a melee class for the humans that I strongly believe. It would take more skill than his/her ranged counter-parts but hell it can be done.

Even if they (the devs) agree with you, it's their work to balance it all. It shouldn't be hard to play with an specific character.

Reidbynature
5th Oct 2013, 19:58
What I am saing is that is is against the whole idea of the game.

That's what I'm arguing. If it's just about keeping the teams melee vs ranged then those suggestions don't break that. You've yet to demonstrate how it does.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 20:02
That's what I'm arguing. If it's just about keeping the teams melee vs ranged then those suggestions don't break that. You've yet to demonstrate how it does.

I do: putting a range in the melee team breakes the melee, and putting a melee in the ranged team breaks the ranged part of it!

Reidbynature
5th Oct 2013, 20:05
I do: putting a range in the melee team breakes the melee, and putting a melee in the ranged team breaks the ranged part of it!

Then you clearly did misunderstand my argument. I never said that.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 20:08
Then you clearly did misunderstand my argument. I never said that.


Then PLEASE explain me once again, because I really want to understand it =P

Reidbynature
5th Oct 2013, 20:13
Then PLEASE explain me once again, because I really want to understand it =P

Fair enough. I'll try to be clearer (maybe not my strong suit lol).

I'm not saying to mix the teams when it comes to melee/ranged. Keep one team ranged vs the other team melee, but swap it over with melee human classes and vampire ranged classes additions to the game.

Does that help?

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 20:20
Fair enough. I'll try to be clearer (maybe not my strong suit lol).

I'm not saying to mix the teams when it comes to melee/ranged. Keep one team ranged vs the other team melee, but swap it over with melee human classes and vampire ranged classes additions to the game.

Does that help?

You mean, by letting Vampires only ranged and humans only melee? All human classes are only melee and all vampiric classes only ranged?

Reidbynature
5th Oct 2013, 20:38
You mean, by letting Vampires only ranged and humans only melee? All human classes are only melee and all vampiric classes only ranged?

Pretty much. I'm not suggesting they change the classes they already have, just the addition of more classes for both human and vampires so you can have games where all vampires are ranged and all humans are melee. I'm not suggesting they mix teams, but to keep the core gameplay intact.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 20:44
Pretty much. I'm not suggesting they change the classes they already have, just the addition of more classes for both human and vampires so you can have games where all vampires are ranged and all humans are melee. I'm not suggesting they mix teams, but to keep the core gameplay intact.

That could do, but I think Vampires are too proud of themselves to use such tactics. They fit better in the melee, in my opinion...

Reidbynature
5th Oct 2013, 20:59
Well to be fair they do have ranged abilities in Soul Reaver.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 21:19
Not saying they do not, but saying that the hole Vampire concept fits more melee. It would be strange to see them at ranged, but strange does not mean that they would not be playable.

Raziel1228
5th Oct 2013, 21:41
I honestly don't think the vampires would need a range. They move fast enough and are evasive enough to get in close with their melee with no consequence. I only think that the humans need a melee. The only way to keep a vampire back is with either traps or maybe a flamethrower(and that depends if the flames can kill him fast enough.) Thats why I think a human melee would be useful. Perhaps a rouge or assassin or maybe a knight that can push the vampires of other people at melee range. They don't need to implement this into the game yet. We have to actually play it first and then maybe opinions will change. However if the games go strongly in favour of the vampires then a melee class should be speculated by the devs.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 22:03
I honestly don't think the vampires would need a range. They move fast enough and are evasive enough to get in close with their melee with no consequence. I only think that the humans need a melee. The only way to keep a vampire back is with either traps or maybe a flamethrower(and that depends if the flames can kill him fast enough.) Thats why I think a human melee would be useful. Perhaps a rouge or assassin or maybe a knight that can push the vampires of other people at melee range. They don't need to implement this into the game yet. We have to actually play it first and then maybe opinions will change. However if the games go strongly in favour of the vampires then a melee class should be speculated by the devs.

I dunno how it could, because the range of humans is a lot of advantage... I actually think that the vampires are weaker. Plus, I think the game must keep this way, melee x ranged, or else it loses what differs it from the others.

AlterRequiem
5th Oct 2013, 22:11
How bout Melchiah so we can play as stinky zombies.

AlterRequiem
5th Oct 2013, 22:22
I was honestly hoping for humans vs the clans only. But there should be a melee class for the humans that I strongly believe. It would take more skill than his/her ranged counter-parts but hell it can be done.

Im thinking a the class would be something close to this
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130305020306/legacyofkain/images/5/57/BO2-Enemy-SarafanKnight2.png

maybe even incorporate a short term ability you can activate to sense vampires like the tougher guards near the end of Blood Omen 2

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 22:35
Im thinking a the class would be something close to this
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130305020306/legacyofkain/images/5/57/BO2-Enemy-SarafanKnight2.png

maybe even incorporate a short term ability you can activate to sense vampires like the tougher guards near the end of Blood Omen 2

The "sensing vampire" thing is a really good ability. But the melee human nope. Forget it please, guys... It would make the game upside-down.

LordNekronom
5th Oct 2013, 23:10
Mmm, well, I think Soul Reaver would very much beg to differ:




These big four-pronged spears used by vampire hunters to pin down devolved Dumahim corpses in the Ruined City, and three of these man-sized stakes required to pierce Dumah's heart.
Don't quote me out of context please, I said before that a vampire in SR is killed by impalement, water, fire so melee doesn't make much sense. Those spears are used for impalement not for slashing at the vampires :P

Reidbynature
5th Oct 2013, 23:19
Spears are still melee weapons and some of the various heads on spears throughout SR1 look like they can do a decent job of both slashing and impaling.

Lord_Aevum
5th Oct 2013, 23:20
Don't quote me out of context please, I said before that a vampire in SR is killed by impalement, water, fire so melee doesn't make much sense. Those spears are used for impalement not for slashing at the vampires :P

Sorry, but you didn't say any of that in the post I was quoting from.

Rahabthesecond
6th Oct 2013, 09:10
How about a Naginata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx5LLl9ZWc4)? (Basically a spear with a katana blade but handles more like a sword) Does a great job in both impaling and beheading if you need to! Wouldn't leave my house without one of these :D

Raziel1228
6th Oct 2013, 19:35
How about a Naginata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx5LLl9ZWc4)? (Basically a spear with a katana blade but handles more like a sword) Does a great job in both impaling and beheading if you need to! Wouldn't leave my house without one of these :D

No, the naginata is of Japanese descent. The game is a Gothic slight medieval tones. Last thing I want to see is a bunch of humans running around with katana's in samurai armour killing vampires. To be honest some people want a melee class for the humans(me including) but I suggest we wait till the game releases for a decision like that. If its balanced or the range vs melee thing works then we won't need a melee class. I was also thinking of a quick melee hit all the human classes can do. If anyone here has played the Alien vs Predator(2010) the marines in that game had no melee weapons weapons. What they did have was a melee hit with the blunt of their rifle which would stun the alien or predator for 1 second giving the human some breathing time to run or gun. I don't know how to melee system works. The only trailer released showcases the powers of the vamps and not their hit animations or melee. But if they dominate in close quarters that hard I believe the humans need something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8SS8qOi9K0
an example of what I mean.

ZeroFernir
6th Oct 2013, 22:43
No, the naginata is of Japanese descent. The game is a Gothic slight medieval tones. Last thing I want to see is a bunch of humans running around with katana's in samurai armour killing vampires. To be honest some people want a melee class for the humans(me including) but I suggest we wait till the game releases for a decision like that. If its balanced or the range vs melee thing works then we won't need a melee class. I was also thinking of a quick melee hit all the human classes can do. If anyone here has played the Alien vs Predator(2010) the marines in that game had no melee weapons weapons. What they did have was a melee hit with the blunt of their rifle which would stun the alien or predator for 1 second giving the human some breathing time to run or gun. I don't know how to melee system works. The only trailer released showcases the powers of the vamps and not their hit animations or melee. But if they dominate in close quarters that hard I believe the humans need something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8SS8qOi9K0
an example of what I mean.

Finally someone who gets my idea. The hole concept of the game says: "No melee for humans" so they will make it work out.

Raziel1228
6th Oct 2013, 23:21
Finally someone who gets my idea. The hole concept of the game says: "No melee for humans" so they will make it work out.

I've played Alien vs Predator and that game showed how humans don't need melee to win against stronger foes. The thing is this game has a crossbow, a bow, a flamethrower, traps, and a nade launcher. You can really spray at a vampire coming at you except with the flamethrower. But they said that trying to balance them was their biggest point and so I will wait till I get to try out the game before I suggest a melee option or even class. The thing is go watch the announcement trailer and look at the vampire compared to the humans. The tyrant can knockdown everyone when he lands. The sentinel can also knock people down with a flap of his wings and can knock em down when his aerial dive. The reaver just has a lock-down. What im hoping to not see are humans getting perma-stunned or enough CC to hold a city. But like I said we have to wait till we get the beta or game.

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 00:11
I've played Alien vs Predator and that game showed how humans don't need melee to win against stronger foes. The thing is this game has a crossbow, a bow, a flamethrower, traps, and a nade launcher. You can really spray at a vampire coming at you except with the flamethrower. But they said that trying to balance them was their biggest point and so I will wait till I get to try out the game before I suggest a melee option or even class. The thing is go watch the announcement trailer and look at the vampire compared to the humans. The tyrant can knockdown everyone when he lands. The sentinel can also knock people down with a flap of his wings and can knock em down when his aerial dive. The reaver just has a lock-down. What im hoping to not see are humans getting perma-stunned or enough CC to hold a city. But like I said we have to wait till we get the beta or game.

Actually, I don't expect much on the game. I just wanna have some fun in Nosgoth.

LordNekronom
7th Oct 2013, 09:58
actually I do expect humans to get uber nuked in melee and perma CC-ed, that's the point of ranged vs melee games, see Primal Carnage, in close range you don't stand much of a chance, but at range you can take his head off with a carefully aimed shot, this is very realistic if you take into consideration that vampires of SR1 era are insanely strong when compared to the fledgelings the Sarafan were fighting in ages past, think of it like a very large gorilla going against a human with a crossbow, tell me more about how you would beat the gorilla with your bare hands if he gets into melee range :D, I'll get popcorn it should be amusing. :D

Also if you say you could kill it with a sword then I will remind you that this particular Gorilla can only be killed by impalement, complete burning, and submersion in water and sunlight if it's a young Gorilla, also that thing has human intelligence and is trained in hand to hand combat.

Herrdoktorel
7th Oct 2013, 10:07
How bout Melchiah so we can play as stinky zombies.

I agree with this. And we can only defeat them with a healthy dose of Old Spice deodorant!

"Blaaaaaughwaaaughlwaaaughl, the distinguished smell is corrupting my smelly Melchahim powers! I can feel myself returning to the wheel... of the less pleasantly scented side of fate."

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 12:08
I agree with this. And we can only defeat them with a healthy dose of Old Spice deodorant!

"Blaaaaaughwaaaughlwaaaughl, the distinguished smell is corrupting my smelly Melchahim powers! I can feel myself returning to the wheel... of the less pleasantly scented side of fate."

oh, come on... Deodorant?

Raziel1228
7th Oct 2013, 17:03
"Their pupation is observed, they are dug into holes in the ground, usually in cemetery soil, but not exclusively. Patches of disturbed soil is seen on the ground where they are buried. Some might wake up immediately and attack a nearby prey, some may only awaken later." Back in SR1 both fledgling and adult Melchahim attack Raziel from popping out of the dirt. Im pretty sure this will be their special ability. Or maybe the skin flay idea I proposed somewhere.

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 19:13
"Their pupation is observed, they are dug into holes in the ground, usually in cemetery soil, but not exclusively. Patches of disturbed soil is seen on the ground where they are buried. Some might wake up immediately and attack a nearby prey, some may only awaken later." Back in SR1 both fledgling and adult Melchahim attack Raziel from popping out of the dirt. Im pretty sure this will be their special ability. Or maybe the skin flay idea I proposed somewhere.

But I think they would need abilities more relevant than that... this just doesn't feels enough.

Raziel1228
7th Oct 2013, 23:28
But I think they would need abilities more relevant than that... this just doesn't feels enough.

True I guess the flaying skin plus the ground erupt would make them complete.

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 23:31
True I guess the flaying skin plus the ground erupt would make them complete.

Now THAT would be neat, but it is only 2 abilities... there shall be more, so it's customizable...

LordNekronom
8th Oct 2013, 01:52
Now THAT would be neat, but it is only 2 abilities... there shall be more, so it's customizable...

Considering that they are rotting on the inside and their skin can barely contain it, they may have some special form of regenaration or degeneration when using certain abilities, remember they are the weakest of the clans

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 02:27
Considering that they are rotting on the inside and their skin can barely contain it, they may have some special form of regenaration or degeneration when using certain abilities, remember they are the weakest of the clans

that would be cool... but still Melchiahim needs lots of thinking.

Raziel1228
8th Oct 2013, 02:59
Considering that they are rotting on the inside and their skin can barely contain it, they may have some special form of regenaration or degeneration when using certain abilities, remember they are the weakest of the clans

Indeed they were the last made and so took the least of Kain's power. Maybe a special regen where they heal a small amount of health over time when they are out of combat. They will still need to feed to regen most of their health but the regen will help a bit.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 12:12
Indeed they were the last made and so took the least of Kain's power. Maybe a special regen where they heal a small amount of health over time when they are out of combat. They will still need to feed to regen most of their health but the regen will help a bit.

surelly... It seems fair to me. Maybe scout's mines could have a lot more damage if he puts over a melchiahim's head? =D

VVZigel
8th Oct 2013, 14:01
"Their pupation is observed, they are dug into holes in the ground, usually in cemetery soil, but not exclusively. Patches of disturbed soil is seen on the ground where they are buried. Some might wake up immediately and attack a nearby prey, some may only awaken later." Back in SR1 both fledgling and adult Melchahim attack Raziel from popping out of the dirt. Im pretty sure this will be their special ability. Or maybe the skin flay idea I proposed somewhere.

Quite possible - adult Melchahim were able to quickly bury themselves and move short distances undreground, attacking from below afterwards. However - possessing such an ability would limit them to be effective only on soil, because they won't be able to perform such trick, say, on a brick wall or a wooden bridge.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 14:21
Quite possible - adult Melchahim were able to quickly bury themselves and move short distances undreground, attacking from below afterwards. However - possessing such an ability would limit them to be effective only on soil, because they won't be able to perform such trick, say, on a brick wall or a wooden bridge.

Anyway, he can have another abilities for them.

VVZigel
8th Oct 2013, 14:31
Aye... like turning corporeal!
I mean - you remember Melchiah passing through iron bars during fight in SR 1, right? His "children" might have something similar, like turning into mist to avoid attacks, giving them some kind of compensation for their lack of toughness... but then they had nothing of sorts in previous games -_-

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 14:42
Aye... like turning corporeal!
I mean - you remember Melchiah passing through iron bars during fight in SR 1, right? His "children" might have something similar, like turning into mist to avoid attacks, giving them some kind of compensation for their lack of toughness... but then they had nothing of sorts in previous games -_-

We could have them pass trough the walls or something. Maybe that would be useful with razielim echolocation that Psyonix members just told us they have. Razielim will be a walking radar.

VVZigel
8th Oct 2013, 15:04
Passing through walls might be a bit too much - even big fat Melchiah himself had problems.
But passing through iron bars and doors? - Yes please! Imagine opportunities for infiltration and sabotage!

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 15:38
Passing through walls might be a bit too much - even big fat Melchiah himself had problems.
But passing through iron bars and doors? - Yes please! Imagine opportunities for infiltration and sabotage!

As we see in the trailer, there wont have much iron bars and stuff... Even cause vampires can climb, anyway.

Cradlis
8th Oct 2013, 16:38
No Rahabim? Why not? They are my favorite clan, I would be pissed off if they are not present in the game at all. They can be the last to appear in the game, but they have to be there!

Don't give them the full ability to swim in water, but give them some resistance or maybe immunity to a certain point. Vampires fear water for it's acid touch and it's deadly for them. Rahabim could be able to walk in rivers or sewers without suffering damages, so they can be able to reach the humans from behind or from below. Or give them more than that : give them the capacity to swim and make maps with water. But to balance it, give them some flaws when they are directly touched by the sunlight. A great bonus and bad flaw.

The Zephonim could be fast as hell and silent. You could hear the other vampires walking around on the grass or the rocks, but the Zephonim could be moving silently, making them more like assassins.

And I'm personnaly ok to give the Melchiahim the ability to burrow and to heal themselves without blood to compensate their weaknesses. I'm ok too with the spy thing, thought I don't know how it could be implemanted.

My 2 cents on the matter :)

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 17:54
No Rahabim? Why not? They are my favorite clan, I would be pissed off if they are not present in the game at all. They can be the last to appear in the game, but they have to be there!

Don't give them the full ability to swim in water, but give them some resistance or maybe immunity to a certain point. Vampires fear water for it's acid touch and it's deadly for them. Rahabim could be able to walk in rivers or sewers without suffering damages, so they can be able to reach the humans from behind or from below. Or give them more than that : give them the capacity to swim and make maps with water. But to balance it, give them some flaws when they are directly touched by the sunlight. A great bonus and bad flaw.

The Zephonim could be fast as hell and silent. You could hear the other vampires walking around on the grass or the rocks, but the Zephonim could be moving silently, making them more like assassins.

And I'm personnaly ok to give the Melchiahim the ability to burrow and to heal themselves without blood to compensate their weaknesses. I'm ok too with the spy thing, thought I don't know how it could be implemanted.

My 2 cents on the matter :)

The thing is: If rahabim exists, and exists maps with loads of water, then other vampires would become useless, and Vampire team would be full rahabim. Rahabim must have out-water abilities. They could give it a good defence (because of the fishy skin of them) and penalties on sunlight, but I think that every ability for the rahabim should not involve water, so no water maps are created.

Cradlis
8th Oct 2013, 18:10
I'm not asking for a full map of water, that would be useless as you said. But what about secret passages full of water that only Rahabim (and humans) could enter? Every places in a map should be available for every classes, but the Rahabim could have access to certain areas filled with water that can give them the opportunity to attack from different points. As a human, you could never know if the vampires are going to destroy the door in front of you or lurk from the sewers behind and below you. That would add a stress for the humans (and the vampires too, because humans can walk in water with no problems).

I don't thik that just giving them additionnal armor is going to make them interesting. The Turelim are already the tank class, we must find something else for the Rahabim.

Vampmaster
8th Oct 2013, 18:19
I'm not asking for a full map of water, that would be useless as you said. But what about secret passages full of water that only Rahabim (and humans) could enter? Every places in a map should be available for every classes, but the Rahabim could have access to certain areas filled with water that can give them the opportunity to attack from different points. As a human, you could never know if the vampires are going to destroy the door in front of you or lurk from the sewers behind and below you. That would add a stress for the humans (and the vampires too, because humans can walk in water with no problems).

I don't thik that just giving them additionnal armor is going to make them interesting. The Turelim are already the tank class, we must find something else for the Rahabim.

SR1 codename = Aluka = Leech.

Cradlis
8th Oct 2013, 18:26
Well that is something, but we must develop that. What about a class that become more powerfull each time it drinks blood? Their natural weakness to sunlight could make them very weak at the beginning, but if they drink enough blood they could overcome, temporarily, that weakness and even become a real threat. Some kind of berserker enabled by enough blood in their body.

PS : Sorry for my english that is not perfect sometimes, not my primary language :)

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 18:30
Well that is something, but we must develop that. What about a class that become more powerfull each time it drinks blood? Their natural weakness to sunlight could make them very weak at the beginning, but if they drink enough blood they could overcome, temporarily, that weakness and even become a real threat. Some kind of berserker enabled by enough blood in their body.

PS : Sorry for my english that is not perfect sometimes, not my primary language :)

I suggested that somewhere... I said we could put a "lore-like" bar for the vampires, like the BO2 one.


Mine too =P

Psyonix_Eric
8th Oct 2013, 18:30
Their natural weakness to sunlight could make them very weak at the beginning, but if they drink enough blood they could overcome, temporarily, that weakness and even become a real threat.
The world as we've developed it is actually covered by a constant clouding of the sky. We do allow for minor patches of sunlight to show through so the ground is always an ever-changing flux of sunlight and shade but we don't plan to have any maps that are bright and sunny enough where any vampire would need to worry about a weakness to sunlight. It is something that is there for many reasons but two of which are the vampire aversion to sunlight as well as the look of it adding to the overall bleakness of this part of history.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 18:39
The world as we've developed it is actually covered by a constant clouding of the sky. We do allow for minor patches of sunlight to show through so the ground is always an ever-changing flux of sunlight and shade but we don't plan to have any maps that are bright and sunny enough where any vampire would need to worry about a weakness to sunlight. It is something that is there for many reasons but two of which are the vampire aversion to sunlight as well as the look of it adding to the overall bleakness of this part of history.

Do you guys have some idea for classes? and do you plan making one for each clan? actually, it looks like it is fanbase's most important asking, right now (apart for the lore thing =P)

Psyonix_Eric
8th Oct 2013, 18:43
Do you guys have some idea for classes? and do you plan making one for each clan? actually, it looks like it is fanbase's most important asking, right now (apart for the lore thing =P)
We do have ideas for other classes, some of which are being prototyped right now. We are keeping everyone's suggestions in mind and seeing what we are able to take from that while still maintaining a balanced game.

Psyonix_Eric
8th Oct 2013, 18:46
I understand that very well, but the Rahabim, even with the clouds, are very sensitive to sunlight. In the first Soul Reaver, they are burned by the sunlight when they go out of the buildings, even with storm clouds. In Nosgoth's period they are less devolved, so their flesh could resist enough to not burn, but enough to make them more reliable. That weakness could be overwhelmed with enough blood in their veins and transform them into real beasts if they drink enough.

Damn I want the Rahabim :(
I'm not ruling out any future clans at this point, and we are watching what people are suggesting. So there's always still a possibility that a future class may come from something you guys are looking forward to playing.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 18:49
We do have ideas for other classes, some of which are being prototyped right now. We are keeping everyone's suggestions in mind and seeing what we are able to take from that while still maintaining a balanced game.

So we MAY have all the clans in the game?

Cradlis
8th Oct 2013, 19:15
That would be awesome if the answer is yes. In fact, I think that this is the minimum to do. If the Razielim, the clan that has been hated and attacked since Raziel's fall, have been reintegrated to fight against the humans, there's no reasons to not see Rahabim, Zephonim and Melchiahim.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 19:17
That would be awesome if the answer is yes. In fact, I think that this is the minimum to do. If the Razielim, the clan that has been hated and attacked since Raziel's fall, have been reintegrated to fight against the humans, there's no reasons to not see Rahabim, Zephonim and Melchiahim.

Yeah, I agree... but it seems kinda hard to think on abilities for each class and balance them all...

Cradlis
8th Oct 2013, 19:28
That is why we are discussing it right now for we can help the dev in that matter :)

Anacrothe
8th Oct 2013, 19:29
Yeah, I agree... but it seems kinda hard to think on abilities for each class and balance them all...

yeah its gonna be odd for a fish(Rahabim) to walk on land x.x
Even if so what will its powers be? In the game they were like spell casters but...I think the vampires are solely melee while the humans are ranged so that would go against it.

Cradlis
8th Oct 2013, 19:33
Why is it gonna be odd? The Rahabims were able to walk on land when Raziel returned from the abyss. They could walk on land like the others and interact a little bit with water. Don,t know how but it would make sense since they evolved to be immune to that element. That and the berserker thing would be enough I think :)

Rahabthesecond
8th Oct 2013, 19:35
yeah its gonna be odd for a fish(Rahabim) to walk on land x.x
Even if so what will its powers be? In the game they were like spell casters but...I think the vampires are solely melee while the humans are ranged so that would go against it.
Well in the game my favourite vampires can spy balls of compressed water (Even if it's not possible to compress water:D ). So either as extrem short ranged shooting attack that is quite powerfull or we break the "vampires only melee" rule (telekinesis will be an other problem here). Other options would be a "flamethrower" like erruption of water.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 19:37
Why is it gonna be odd? The Rahabims were able to walk on land when Raziel returned from the abyss. They could walk on land like the others and interact a little bit with water. Don,t know how but it would make sense since they evolved to be immune to that element. That and the berserker thing would be enough I think :)

Well, the game is actually before Raziel come back from the abyss. We could have berserker or he could be the support, buffing other vampires (not only, but also.)

Cradlis
8th Oct 2013, 20:08
Well, the game is actually before Raziel come back from the abyss. We could have berserker or he could be the support, buffing other vampires (not only, but also.)

By that I meant that if they were able to walk on land when Raziel returned, they were probably able to do so during his sleep in the abyss :)

Make the Rahabim a buffer sounds cool, but I don't know how it could be done. They could push a roaring to temporarily boost the stats of other players for example or have an attack with poison (their claws could be filled with poison, it goes well with the fish-like vampire and the fact that many living beings undersea are poisonnous as hell).

Vampmaster
8th Oct 2013, 20:45
How about an electric eel shock for the Rahabim? Or a drain health ability as implied by their SR1 preproduction name. Or maybe massive jaws like a shark. Or octopus ink.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 21:36
By that I meant that if they were able to walk on land when Raziel returned, they were probably able to do so during his sleep in the abyss :)

Make the Rahabim a buffer sounds cool, but I don't know how it could be done. They could push a roaring to temporarily boost the stats of other players for example or have an attack with poison (their claws could be filled with poison, it goes well with the fish-like vampire and the fact that many living beings undersea are poisonnous as hell).

I think you didn't get me. If Rahabim could do little things in the water by the time Raziel went off the abyss, they should do even less now, because it is right after raziel was thrown there.


How about an electric eel shock for the Rahabim? Or a drain health ability as implied by their SR1 preproduction name. Or maybe massive jaws like a shark. Or octopus ink.

The octopus ink it's a strange idea, but I liked every other one. Maybe that could be their ability: The shark jaws would get their ground attack better and faster, as the electric eel shock/ poisonous claws would make normal attack more effective.

Vampmaster
8th Oct 2013, 21:50
The octopus ink idea was because I still wasn't thinking of them evolving towards something as specific as a fish, just "general aquatic creature" in the same way as I considered the Razielim as "bat-like creature". Evolution doesn't have a specified target in mind, so I don't think devolution would either.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 22:55
The octopus ink idea was because I still wasn't thinking of them evolving towards something as specific as a fish, just "general aquatic creature" in the same way as I considered the Razielim as "bat-like creature". Evolution doesn't have a specified target in mind, so I don't think devolution would either.

Yeah, but it is a bit strange... I wouldn't like to blind enemyes by spitting ink in their eyes... I would prefer other source of blinding =P Also, I think it actually has a "target", as they were going to be the closest possible to their master.

Raziel1228
8th Oct 2013, 23:14
I agree something relatable to an aquatic animal. I don't think the devs should make a level with water to be honest. As Cradlis said we can have sewers from which the Rahabim can go through. Which would be only accessible to humans and the Rahabim. But the Rahabim need an ability besides better access to the map. That water burst thing is a good idea. A short ranged knockdown of highly concentrated water that can deal a damage over time effect. That sounds like a Rahabim right there.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 23:59
I agree something relatable to an aquatic animal. I don't think the devs should make a level with water to be honest. As Cradlis said we can have sewers from which the Rahabim can go through. Which would be only accessible to humans and the Rahabim. But the Rahabim need an ability besides better access to the map. That water burst thing is a good idea. A short ranged knockdown of highly concentrated water that can deal a damage over time effect. That sounds like a Rahabim right there.

Rahabim would be in great danger going alone to the sewers. Plus, I agree that we should have no water maps. And I loved the water burst idea =P

diuqSehT
9th Oct 2013, 04:21
Water gates and BO2 water barriers on buildings' entrances would be a long-standing tradition in human dwellings. It's only recently that Rahabs have evolved the ability to defeat these water defenses that have always held up before. That means MANY human buildings (except the ones that've just been built or remodeled) would still have these water traps that stun and burn other vampire types. Rahabs can waltz right through without becoming vulnerable. That's enough use of the water advantage right there. But if you want more, maybe they could be fish-oil slippery and wiggle their way out of human traps that way, or what if they could Drown-Bite humans. (So as you're taking the blood out of a human, you're sending water into their lungs in return. I don't know how the melee is going to work, but if the humans have ways of stopping you from biting them, spit-stunning the human and then drown-biting them might take the fight out of 'em. The pool of water around the corpse would be your calling card.)

Rahabthesecond
9th Oct 2013, 09:52
That water burst thing is a good idea. A short ranged knockdown of highly concentrated water that can deal a damage over time effect. That sounds like a Rahabim right there.
Perhaps more of a knocking down and throwing people arround effect with damage only from collision with walls? Fun thing: You can only use this attack when no other vampire is close or you will kill him while you only slightly damage the humans and stun them in process!

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 11:39
Perhaps more of a knocking down and throwing people arround effect with damage only from collision with walls? Fun thing: You can only use this attack when no other vampire is close or you will kill him while you only slightly damage the humans and stun them in process!

Cool! the stunning and Knock down thing would be cool, so some vampire could go there and finish him =P

MasterShuriko
9th Oct 2013, 11:47
This would be even more phun if the humans could be tossed on pikes or similar stuff :poke:

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 11:59
This would be even more phun if the humans could be tossed on pikes or similar stuff :poke:

I think that vampires are enough overpowered to want to kill them with their own hands =P

MasterShuriko
9th Oct 2013, 12:33
I think that vampires are enough overpowered to want to kill them with their own hands =P

But the big guys on the Vamp side could be able to pick them up and make kebab of them =D
Oooh tasty

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 12:43
But the big guys on the Vamp side could be able to pick them up and make kebab of them =D
Oooh tasty

I think that this should be an idea for the humans, as an alternate way to kill the vampires.

MasterShuriko
9th Oct 2013, 12:52
I think that this should be an idea for the humans, as an alternate way to kill the vampires.

It adds a litle feature from the Soul Reaver game where Raziel relied on the environment in order to dispatch the vampires =)

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 12:55
It adds a litle feature from the Soul Reaver game where Raziel relied on the environment in order to dispatch the vampires =)

In Defiance you could do that too =P

MasterShuriko
9th Oct 2013, 13:11
In Defiance you could do that too =P

Myea but I thought of the first Soul Reaver game from the top of my head since that still makes me smile. I never forget my first penetration:lol:

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 13:22
Myea but I thought of the first Soul Reaver game from the top of my head since that still makes me smile. I never forget my first penetration:lol:

Well, LOL? kkkkk

Raziel1228
9th Oct 2013, 16:36
Perhaps more of a knocking down and throwing people arround effect with damage only from collision with walls? Fun thing: You can only use this attack when no other vampire is close or you will kill him while you only slightly damage the humans and stun them in process!

Bad thing about that is people won't always work in teams. The water spray I suggested would be better. It can team-kill vampires sure but its short-ranged and you have to aim it instead of a aoe attack. It also should knock them down so that should be their ability IMO.

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 17:11
Bad thing about that is people won't always work in teams. The water spray I suggested would be better. It can team-kill vampires sure but its short-ranged and you have to aim it instead of a aoe attack. It also should knock them down so that should be their ability IMO.

That reminds me of... HADOUKEN! kkkkk

It actually would be nice to see that, better then any other ability anyone suggested, but it would be strange to see our aquamens doing hadoukens =P and it's hard to balance habilities that do NDE (non-damage effects), actually.

Raziel1228
9th Oct 2013, 17:17
That reminds me of... HADOUKEN! kkkkk

It actually would be nice to see that, better then any other ability anyone suggested, but it would be strange to see our aquamens doing hadoukens =P and it's hard to balance habilities that do NDE (non-damage effects), actually.


That reminds me of... HADOUKEN! kkkkk


HADOUKEN!

I love everything about this idea. Psyonix add this please.

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 17:20
I love everything about this idea. Psyonix add this please.

kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk, I loved the way you quoted me kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

EDIT: Printed for Facebook kkkkk

MasterShuriko
9th Oct 2013, 18:30
Hadoukens are overrated.
Go with the Kamehameha!

Raziel1228
9th Oct 2013, 18:39
Hadoukens are overrated. Go with the Kamehameha!

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100605050331/streetfighter/images/4/4c/Ryuhadoken.gif

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 18:52
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100605050331/streetfighter/images/4/4c/Ryuhadoken.gif

Now put a Rahabim in Ryu's place =P

MasterShuriko
9th Oct 2013, 19:02
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100605050331/streetfighter/images/4/4c/Ryuhadoken.gif


http://dragongifs.tripod.com/gokugif.gif

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 19:12
http://dragongifs.tripod.com/gokugif.gif

Didn't get it =P

MasterShuriko
9th Oct 2013, 19:19
Didn't get it =P

I just think its much cüüler with a Kamehameha than a Hadouken =(

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 19:26
I just think its much cüüler with a Kamehameha than a Hadouken =(

Kamehameha is continuous... A kamehameha made of whater would be like that hose from the fire trucks.

Anyway, let's get it aside, this is becoming a meme thread.

diuqSehT
9th Oct 2013, 21:19
The vampire faction that gets impaled on human lances !!!!!! let's not forget about them. they've been very common up until now. So, in the first ever large scale war game in Nosgoth, humans are going to abandon this tactic ????@@@@?!?!?!!! No more impale & hoist? What??

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 21:50
The vampire faction that gets impaled on human lances !!!!!! let's not forget about them. they've been very common up until now. So, in the first ever large scale war game in Nosgoth, humans are going to abandon this tactic ????@@@@?!?!?!!! No more impale & hoist? What??

As far as I know, every vampire killed by humans was impaled. and actually, they did it after the end of the battle...

diuqSehT
9th Oct 2013, 21:58
We don't get to hang around after battles, though. All we get is the battle itself, and if the hoisting isn't going to be part of the fighting, then it's absent from the game, and that's bad because it's one of the core images we have of fighting vampires in Nosgoth, which makes it sort of expected, and yet it's absent, which brings us back to this:


The vampire faction that gets impaled on human lances !!!!!! let's not forget about them. they've been very common up until now. So, in the first ever large scale war game in Nosgoth, humans are going to abandon this tactic ????@@@@?!?!?!!! No more impale & hoist? What??

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 22:07
We don't get to hang around after battles, though. All we get is the battle itself, and if the hoisting isn't going to be part of the fighting, then it's absent from the game, and that's bad because it's one of the core images we have of fighting vampires in Nosgoth, which makes it sort of expected, and yet it's absent, which brings us back to this:

Nope, it do not get us back to it, because:
1: I already said that every vampire caught and killed by humans was impaled;
2: Humans did NOT abandon this tactic, but it was used later, in the battle result checking, so we won't see it.

diuqSehT
9th Oct 2013, 22:30
It should be doable by the human players as part of the combat you get to control. This will help raise the satisfaction level of players fighting a war against vampires in Nosgoth. It doesn't have to be a whole melee class for humans, but it should be a move or skill you can gain to finish off enemies with style. It'd add to the awesome. And for a game that's wondering how it can feel as Nosgothy as possible, this is one way to increase the Nosgothness of Nosgoth considerably.

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 22:40
It should be doable by the human players as part of the combat you get to control. This will help raise the satisfaction level of players fighting a war against vampires in Nosgoth. It doesn't have to be a whole melee class for humans, but it should be a move or skill you can gain to finish off enemies with style. It'd add to the awesome. And for a game that's wondering how it can feel as Nosgothy as possible, this is one way to increase the Nosgothness of Nosgoth considerably.

Humans already have that: Sometimes, as you kill an enemy, limbs of him get out of the body, or it explodes Quake III Arena's style. Did you saw the trailer? =P It is quite awesome to me.

diuqSehT
9th Oct 2013, 22:44
Nosgoth style, not Quake style.

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 22:48
Nosgoth style, not Quake style.

Well, in the trailer seems very Quakely to me.

diuqSehT
9th Oct 2013, 22:51
Which is why they might want to add this impaling bit from the series' past. To Nosgoth it up, since it's Nosgoth.

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 22:57
Which is why they might want to add this impaling bit from the series' past. To Nosgoth it up, since it's Nosgoth.

I don't think it is necessary, since it was to be seen AFTER the combat, which is not part of the game. Plus, mid-combat impaling and rising that HUGE thing, would be a enormous difficulty for the humans, who would take time doing that and becoming vulnerable all the time long.

Anacrothe
9th Oct 2013, 23:09
How about an electric eel shock for the Rahabim? Or a drain health ability as implied by their SR1 preproduction name. Or maybe massive jaws like a shark. Or octopus ink.

I liek the health drain and electric shock ability suggestion.

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 23:24
I liek the health drain and electric shock ability suggestion.

I just didn't liked the ink... But I would love the Hadouken mentioned above =P

Umbralim
9th Oct 2013, 23:29
I don't think it is necessary, since it was to be seen AFTER the combat, which is not part of the game. Plus, mid-combat impaling and rising that HUGE thing, would be a enormous difficulty for the humans, who would take time doing that and becoming vulnerable all the time long.

i don't know there would be something quite satisfying about the more ceremonial impalement so to speak

a special game mode, rather than an ability perhaps?

Anacrothe
9th Oct 2013, 23:46
I just didn't liked the ink... But I would love the Hadouken mentioned above =P

Didn't like that one as much but to each their own I guess xD

Reidbynature
10th Oct 2013, 00:03
I like some of the suggestions for the Rahabim. Though I think ink could actually work. It could be used in an opposite fashion to squids use of ink to escape enemies. Rahabim could launch an ink cloud to blind and disorientate enemies with the Rahabim pouncing on them when they're confused.

Also another idea is they could sense out enemies similar to how a shark senses electrical fields of their prey. You could give the Rahabim a limited ability to sense out human enemies within a short distance.

ZeroFernir
10th Oct 2013, 00:05
Didn't like that one as much but to each their own I guess xD

That's why they are giving us a lot of possibities: to adapt as you like =P

RemovedQuasar
10th Oct 2013, 16:31
I see that the vampires of Clan Dumahim will be a sort of ninjas or stealth warriors. Wasn't better give this ability to the clan Zephonim? In the far future they will become spider-vampires so i think that they would be perfect for that role.

ZeroFernir
10th Oct 2013, 16:33
I see that the vampires of Clan Dumahim will be a sort of ninjas or stealth warriors. Wasn't better give this ability to the clan Zephonim? In the far future they will become spider-vampires so i think that they would be perfect for that role.

Dumahim are not stealth. They are the common vampires.

RemovedQuasar
10th Oct 2013, 16:35
Oh...sorry :D

Sooo....add a stealth class, the clan Zephonim! (probably someone already suggested that :D )

ZeroFernir
10th Oct 2013, 16:46
Oh...sorry :D

Sooo....add a stealth class, the clan Zephonim! (probably someone already suggested that :D )

Yeah... we are trying to give ideas for every vampire clan's habilities...
But we have little ideas on human classes, actually.

Vampmaster
10th Oct 2013, 17:06
Yeah... we are trying to give ideas for every vampire clan's habilities...
But we have little ideas on human classes, actually.

There are tons of ideas:
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7423
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7193

ZeroFernir
11th Oct 2013, 00:28
There are tons of ideas:
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7423
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7193

Actually, this all is resumed in:
1- A throwing knife, trap maker class;
2- a Necromancer (or something like that).

Vampmaster
11th Oct 2013, 06:59
Actually, this all is resumed in:
1- A throwing knife, trap maker class;
2- a Necromancer (or something like that).

No, there was Druid and Energist as well, although we did make the point of saying they didn't need to be directly tied to Bane and DeJoule, just have studied their type of magic.

I suggested humans could have found the tardis/laboratory thing in Dark Eden and started experimenting with the relics found there or similar places.

ZeroFernir
11th Oct 2013, 11:51
No, there was Druid and Energist as well, although we did make the point of saying they didn't need to be directly tied to Bane and DeJoule, just have studied their type of magic.

I suggested humans could have found the tardis/laboratory thing in Dark Eden and started experimenting with the relics found there or similar places.

By "Something like that", I meant any mage-type class. The Necromancer was used as an example because he was the one who we most discussed about.

Vampmaster
11th Oct 2013, 12:44
By "Something like that", I meant any mage-type class. The Necromancer was used as an example because he was the one who we most discussed about.

Do you think those are too similar? I was thinking the Energist would be like a scientist type class, with access to raw energy, but using simple tech to manipulate it. The Druid might use arcane weapons and cursed items rather than casting spells.

I think magic is too generic of a term to restrict to one class. It would be like calling one class "weapon user" and saying no other class can use weapons. Although, that might work for vampires, since it's so rare for them to use any weapons at all.

Also, there's no rule that says traditional RPG roles must be adhered to.

diuqSehT
11th Oct 2013, 19:04
Gypsies! My god, the gypsies! They can be your knife throwers and also your occult specialists with dark magic options, they could develop into one of those shade sorcerers from Blood Omen 1 who looked dead-ish but weren't vampires.

The stronger witches from Defiance would be what Energists would probably end up looking like in action.


uhhhh, could there be human glyphwrights in this era? (assuming Glyph magic's history was: 1. created by hylden glyphwrights to hurt vampires with; 2. hylden relics were discovered by humans who then kept the glyph tradition alive as an anti-vampire weapon of their own 3. before human civilization died off they built those glyph temples from SR1 to keep the hidden knowledge from disappearing from the world, and 4. Raziel finds and uses glyphs against vampires.)

Vampmaster
11th Oct 2013, 19:22
Gypsies! My god, the gypsies! They can be your knife throwers and also your occult specialists with dark magic options, they could develop into one of those shade sorcerors from Blood Omen 1 who looked dead-ish but weren't vampires.

They could use the pentalich of tarot and other BO1 items. I was thinking those abilities would be a druid thing since that got mentioned, but gypsy might be more appropriate.

ZeroFernir
11th Oct 2013, 21:59
Do you think those are too similar? I was thinking the Energist would be like a scientist type class, with access to raw energy, but using simple tech to manipulate it. The Druid might use arcane weapons and cursed items rather than casting spells.

I think magic is too generic of a term to restrict to one class. It would be like calling one class "weapon user" and saying no other class can use weapons. Although, that might work for vampires, since it's so rare for them to use any weapons at all.

Also, there's no rule that says traditional RPG roles must be adhered to.

I agree and disagree with you in that point. I see, now, that I was too generic about that, but I wouldn't EVER call someone a weapon user. That is too generic even for me. I would say bow user.
No "traditional RPG role" must be adhered, but they are a good reference.


They could use the pentalich of tarot and other BO1 items. I was thinking those abilities would be a druid thing since that got mentioned, but gypsy might be more appropriate.

Now that made it more clear for me =P won't generalizate them together never again =P

TenebraeAeterna
16th Oct 2013, 19:30
I was also a bit disappointed with the lack of Zephonim.

They seem like the perfect assassin-like class with adept climbing capabilities and perhaps some web related effects to root humans in place. With the humans being primarily ranged characters, restricting their mobility would be a very effective class ability for the Zephonim to possess. You make them your glass cannons and you could have quite the sadistic little vampire roaming the field.

In a similar manner, you would think that Melchahim would also follow suit with an ambush style by being able to burrow and then burst from the ground under their prey. I can see them as a more "trap" class that lies in wait to ambush the enemy while other vampires lure the unsuspecting prey over their little hidden burrows. The initial grasp and bite attack could be rather devastating to compensate for the fact that they now have to crawl up out of the ground and attack.

Two "rogue" classes with a different methodology.

Zephonim would be your more sadist oriented class with advanced crawling capabilities, web-rooting abilities, and perhaps DOT venom attacks. Very hit and run oriented...

Melchahim would be your ambush predators that work like traps, lying in wait while your allied vampires lure the enemy into your snare...

I can see both having their place, but I can see how the overlapping roles makes this all very difficult too.

ZeroFernir
17th Oct 2013, 12:02
I was also a bit disappointed with the lack of Zephonim.

They seem like the perfect assassin-like class with adept climbing capabilities and perhaps some web related effects to root humans in place. With the humans being primarily ranged characters, restricting their mobility would be a very effective class ability for the Zephonim to possess. You make them your glass cannons and you could have quite the sadistic little vampire roaming the field.

In a similar manner, you would think that Melchahim would also follow suit with an ambush style by being able to burrow and then burst from the ground under their prey. I can see them as a more "trap" class that lies in wait to ambush the enemy while other vampires lure the unsuspecting prey over their little hidden burrows. The initial grasp and bite attack could be rather devastating to compensate for the fact that they now have to crawl up out of the ground and attack.

Two "rogue" classes with a different methodology.

Zephonim would be your more sadist oriented class with advanced crawling capabilities, web-rooting abilities, and perhaps DOT venom attacks. Very hit and run oriented...

Melchahim would be your ambush predators that work like traps, lying in wait while your allied vampires lure the enemy into your snare...

I can see both having their place, but I can see how the overlapping roles makes this all very difficult too.

I SOOOOOO want the Zephonim *-* kkkk

TenebraeAeterna
17th Oct 2013, 18:18
Indeed,

I tend to associate myself with web weaving spiders, personality wise.

Abacrius
17th Oct 2013, 23:27
I see the Melchahim as having something called a Wracker; a quick, frail class who uses a flogging whip to hold Humans still, doing light damage over time. More of a crowd-control class than an actual combatant, but maybe allow them to pounce onto the immobilized human after a certain amount of time has passed? I could see them being the only member of the clans to actually use a weapon, so... Flogging Whip and a Skinning Knife?

diuqSehT
18th Oct 2013, 00:16
......They don't start with weapons, but when they kill their first human they pull his/her spine out and that becomes like their fishing rod, and some of the human's intestines are like the line, or the lasso, or the noose, or the whippy part of the whip. Whichever way you want to go with that. Then the weapon has limited uses before it breaks. Ha! The head could still be attached to the spine, too, so after they rope you in close you'd be looking right at the dead head on the bottom end of the weapon that was about to do the same thing to you! Good stuff.

DeIYIon
25th Jan 2014, 17:31
Hey there,

First of all, this game is so much fun especially for an alpha! Huge LoK fan and I really hope this injects a bit more interest in the LoK franchise. In fact I'm confident it will.

Ok now that's out of the way I wan't to hear some of your guys speculation on Vampire clan's. I've had a quick look through he forums and couldn't find a thread where there was speculation of all possible future vampire class. If I'm wrong I apologise and ask to be redirected.
Anyway Obviously we know the Dumahim, Turelim and Razielim and their current roles in "Nosgoth". But I think it would be interesting to hear if you guys think the other clans Melchahim, Zephonim and Rahabim are likely to be included in the future, and if so what their roles and appearances could be like in "Nosgoth".

I've thought a little about this and so far I have come up with this:


Melchahim

Appearance
Given that Melchiah had to resort to stitching the flesh of humans onto himself to "cover his putrescence". I would assume his clan would also be so inclined in order to hide their decomposing flesh and to intimidate their human foes.

Role
I see the Melchahim as being a "Brawler" class. Very clunky looking combat style but dealing high damage and also inheriting Melchiah's dark gift of "Phasing" allowing them to pass through certain surfaces such as walls and/or gates. Or their signature burrowing ability to resurface and surprise enemies.


Zephonim

Appearance
Zephon evolved insect like qualities and his descendant's are depicted as being spider like in SR1. I think that this evolutionary process would have already started but not to the extreme of having long limbs and looking 'insectoid'. I think it would be appropriate to assume they would be faster and more agile than the other clans but much more frail. Perhaps having even developed slight twitchy movements.

Role
I see the Zephonim as a possible stealth class. I know what you might be thinking "The Dumahim already fulfil the role" However I mean stealth to the more extreme. The Dumahim are supposed to be more like soldiers than stealth units and they just prefer the hunt.
I'm talking about having a camouflage ability and being hard to hit because of their frailer structure. I was also speculating on how to include Zephon's "Wall scaling" ability and given that in Nosgoth all clans can scale most walls I think I've come up with reasonable suggestion. Not just wall scaling but perhaps the Zephonim could be able to cling to surfaces rather than just scale them?


Rahabim

Appearance
The Rahabim should like all the other clan's evolve down that same path as their patriarch. Rahab managed to immunize himself from the burning effects of the water and so his descendants should follow. In my opinion they should have a very pale skin colour (perhabs a very pale powder blue) Gills on the necks is also a possibility. Perhaps even the indication of webbing between the talons starting to develop?

Role
Now this is where I have had the most trouble. Trying to think of a way to give a specific role to the Rahabim. the only notable evolutionary trait that I can tell the Rahabim posess is being able to swim and I can't think of a way to implement this into the game as there would have to be maps build around this idea for swimming vampires to work. So if any of you have any ideas for the Rahabim help me out!

Yeah those are my speculations. What are yours?

Sluagh
26th Jan 2014, 22:16
There' s some stuff on Zephonim here, spider senses, webs etc. http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=8484&highlight=zephonim which was got a few good ideas in it.

Melchiam here - few debates about phasing and whether to make that part of the burrow or not: http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=8399&highlight=melchiahim

Stuff on Rahabim here. Not really an easy one to come up with, there's an electric eel shock idea, which I personally think was one of the only suggestions that sounded quite interesting I think: http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=8489&highlight=rahabim

DeIYIon
27th Jan 2014, 14:23
There' s some stuff on Zephonim here, spider senses, webs etc. http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=8484&highlight=zephonim which was got a few good ideas in it.

Melchiam here - few debates about phasing and whether to make that part of the burrow or not: http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=8399&highlight=melchiahim

Stuff on Rahabim here. Not really an easy one to come up with, there's an electric eel shock idea, which I personally think was one of the only suggestions that sounded quite interesting I think: http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=8489&highlight=rahabim

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, There are some really good ideas there. however I feel like too many people want all the vampire clans to be "Ambush" specialists. With the Melchahim being able to borrow and some Zephonim suggestions of being able to web humans and pull them towards you. Between those, the Dumahim's leap and the Turelim's jump abilities. Combined with the Razelim being able to surprise you from the sky and drag you off I think that alot of these would make the classes tactics almost exactly the same. "Ready guys? 3, 2, 1 AMBUSH!"
I think they have to perform more unique roles rather than all performing the same role in a different style. I don't think anyone has considered any clan being more of a support class.

I am also not sure if the Zephonim would actually be spinning webs at all at this point a few centuries after Raziel's execution. Perhaps Zephon himself would be web slinging but I don't think I buy into his entire clan being able to. That's why I tried to be more subtle with it in my suggestion.

GeorgeCST
27th Jan 2014, 16:45
DeIYIon has a point, you can't have all the clans be ambushers, According to Daniel Cabuco the Melchiahim were Scientists, Necromancers and Blood manipulators so maybe they can be a caster/buffer type of class with low damage capabilities. Not sure what spells they could have, maybe even use some weird gadgets.

Sataine
27th Jan 2014, 20:04
And don't forget that the clans have barely started their devolution. The Razielim are only more advanced in it because of their deprivation of fresh, human blood. The clans won't fully devolve to their Soul Reaver forms for centuries to come.

DeIYIon
28th Jan 2014, 00:55
And don't forget that the clans have barely started their devolution. The Razielim are only more advanced in it because of their deprivation of fresh, human blood. The clans won't fully devolve to their Soul Reaver forms for centuries to come.

Yeah exactly! It doesn't fit in with this time period. I mean in the Turelim were able to attack you with telekinetic blasts in Soul Reaver, yet we don't see them having this ability at all in the time of Nosgoth's setting. So why should the other clan's have their devolved abilities yet? People seem to want Soul Reaver era vampire abilities that don't fit in with what I understand to be the current state of the vampires evolution in Nosgoth. This is the point I have been trying to make, the abilities and appearance of the clans have to be alot more subtle, more hinting in the direction they eventually take. In my own personal opinion that is.


DeIYIon has a point, you can't have all the clans be ambushers, According to Daniel Cabuco the Melchiahim were Scientists, Necromancers and Blood manipulators so maybe they can be a caster/buffer type of class with low damage capabilities. Not sure what spells they could have, maybe even use some weird gadgets.
This is actually an interesting concept, I mean we know the alchemists stole some of their knowledge from vampires in order to take the fight back to them. So what's to say the vampires wouldn't also use alchemy or any other experimental aides/weapons in their fight against the humans?
I think this would be a better suggestion than mine for the Melchahim than mine. My suggestion is too similar to Soul Reaver era.

ParadoxicalOmen
30th Jan 2014, 02:19
Lets see what the team comes up with :)

I'm sure if the game is a success they will include all clans in the future...and more human diversity as well most likely.

Badmojoman
31st Jan 2014, 10:23
Well the Rahabim, could have a limited venom spit ability. They launch a acidic projectile that deals damage over time to anyone who it hits.

They don't necessarily have to be fish people, they could also be reptile people. Think about it, the Rahabim did look a lot like cobras. They could have a venomous bite, that deals damage over time etc. Scales on the skin could give a little extra armor/endurance. Reptiles can also be fast runners, I mean the list goes on and on.

RainaAudron
31st Jan 2014, 10:37
Oooh, that´s a nice comparison - they do have cobra like "fins" on their back, I´ve thought it is something I´ve seen somewhere, but couldn´t remember.

Vampmaster
31st Jan 2014, 11:19
Well the Rahabim, could have a limited venom spit ability. They launch a acidic projectile that deals damage over time to anyone who it hits.

They don't necessarily have to be fish people, they could also be reptile people. Think about it, the Rahabim did look a lot like cobras. They could have a venomous bite, that deals damage over time etc. Scales on the skin could give a little extra armor/endurance. Reptiles can also be fast runners, I mean the list goes on and on.

The bite could be customised so you could choose between a snake bite that poisons the enemy and a shark bite that does extra damage.

The venom-spit would have to be short range because of the melee vs ranged rule. I once suggested a short range, but wide angle spray, but maybe those could be swappable, since the anim would be pretty much the same and only the PFX and effect on enemies would be different.

DeIYIon
4th Feb 2014, 02:13
Well the Rahabim, could have a limited venom spit ability. They launch a acidic projectile that deals damage over time to anyone who it hits.

They don't necessarily have to be fish people, they could also be reptile people. Think about it, the Rahabim did look a lot like cobras. They could have a venomous bite, that deals damage over time etc. Scales on the skin could give a little extra armor/endurance. Reptiles can also be fast runners, I mean the list goes on and on.

Yeah this is good, The venomous bite could work well as a damage over time or possibly slow movement speed? due to toxin seizing up the victims muscles.

D_Acolyte
7th Feb 2014, 20:33
If the Tyrant is the big tank class then I would wonder if there will be a medium tank. I would also thing a AOE vampire with mist, rot, vaporized poison, or some other close range cloud might be good and might mess with people skill at hitting vampires. Are bodies persistence, if so the Melchahim could have a lot of play with them, such as making them into proximity bombs or letting them heal people more. I see the Melchahim doing some of the really disgusting tactics, throwing heads or using maggots (like the infested one from battle realms lotus clans.

faeral
15th Feb 2014, 11:27
melchiahim - burrow is a great concept, much could be done with this for unique gameplay.

eg. burrow could cleanse burning & start regen immediately, but the vamp cannot move while burrowed ( direct attacks still hit burrowed vamps, but no fire--force of the arrow / explosion can penetrate the burrowed soil, but no oxygen for fire to burn ).

then certain unlocked abilities might only be available while burrowed ( eg. corrupted earth--which could either support vampires &/or affect humans in some way, but would automatically give away burrowed position, & fit with the necromancer / blood manipulator theme while providing support-style abilities for vampires in a close-proximity design ).

edit: added explosion to what can hit burrow, since the sentinel already soft-counters the alchemist.

Khalith
15th Feb 2014, 11:53
If you watch the official gameplay vid that was released it shows you what the different classes did, including the new deceiver which is the Zephonim vampire. Far as I can tell, only things that aren't covered for vampires are a high speed scouting class that can do hit and run, something I think is perfect for Rahabim, I recall some lore mentioning they excelled at scouting. Maybe with a name like Eliminator or Harrower, the poison spit is an excellent theme for them, maybe something single target focused? Or give them some kind of ground based spit puddle that slows humans, allowing the Rahabim, to get in, do some damage then drop their puddle to help them run away.

For the Melchiahim, I really like the burrow idea but I think it should be an attack. Like... "Burrow, dive forward under the ground, coming up X amount of feet away, enemies are blinded by the dirt and fall down from the ruptured ground." A short stun/blind could work well with them. I like the idea of a vampire support class but I don't know if it fits the game very well.

faeral
16th Feb 2014, 09:13
Rahabim - I just watched a full playthrough of SR1 to get a feel for what the world looks like after this game takes place. The Rahabim fledglings definitely looked like cobra-inspired amphibians, like mentioned above.

I like the venom concept. Theme could apply to short range conal spray, ground target spit & single target venomous bites.

Rahabim could also have something like a non-targeted Slide attack that leaves a residue in a trail as a debuffing skillshot. Could use to engage or disengage.

shinros
16th Feb 2014, 20:17
Yeah I think the Rahabim would be a good choice considering vampires need a fast scouting class which the Rahabim excel at according to lore. Plus the poison bite and spit ideas are cool in my opinion and the shark bite for extra damage.

Gerloc
24th Mar 2014, 19:40
Don't forget that all of the clans so far have an escape ability(probably because of the ranged vs melee),the turelim have sustain, the razielim can leap to the air, and the dumahim can dodge projectiles. In my opinion the other clans need to have an escape ability too.

Vampmaster
12th May 2015, 13:15
I was just having a look through some of the ideas from earlier on in Nosgoth's development and found this thread. Perhaps it's time to revisit a few of them?

Razielim1993
14th May 2015, 01:28
Here's a idea of mine that fits with that.

The Impaler:
"Formed to emulate the Vampire hunters of old: the Legendary
Sarafan Order, who where renowned for there brutal use of the Pike in
combating the Vampire Scourge of their time.The Impaler's have embraced this Legacy full heartedly even going as far to forge their armour in the image of the old Orders in an effort to simultaneously embolden fellow humans familiar with the tale and drive fear into the Black Hearts of similarly knowing Vampires.

In the Days to come their Greatest Victory against the
Vampires will be when they lead the storming of Lord Dumah's fortress using
his own arrogance to launch a surprise attack and win the day by Skewering
the Evolved Vampire onto his very throne."