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Kaze103
20th Nov 2008, 17:30
How many people have this problem? A lot of first person games make me feel very, very ill.

The original unreal engine was easy to sort the problem, turn off head bobbing and it was fine, but a lot of games now, S.T.A.L.K.E.R and Riddic for example, don't allow you to turn it off, and subsequently I nearly threw up as soon as I got hit on Riddic. In some games that doesn't even solve it, the only one to come to mind right now is Timesplitters, that was amazingly horrible.

Can the dev's make that, if there is head bobbing, it can be turned off?

K^2
20th Nov 2008, 18:02
Head bob is perfectly natural. I mean, you don't throw up when you walk, do you? That would make life difficult for you. The real problem is that many games over-exaggerate it. As long as the EM keeps it to a reasonable amplitude, you shouldn't even notice it most of the time.

spm1138
20th Nov 2008, 18:05
It's called "simulator sickness" resulting from "view vection".

I don't suffer from it but it's actually fairly common and definitely not just you.

http://www.loonygames.com/content/1.2/feat/

gamer0004
20th Nov 2008, 18:17
Head bob is perfectly natural. I mean, you don't throw up when you walk, do you? That would make life difficult for you. The real problem is that many games over-exaggerate it. As long as the EM keeps it to a reasonable amplitude, you shouldn't even notice it most of the time.

Your body compensates for that. It's the same as reading in a car: you are moving (though only slightly) but your body doesn't compensate* for that because it doesn't "realize" it's moving. And thus people get sick.

*compensating in your head (brain), not your body.

SageSavage
20th Nov 2008, 18:19
I get motion sickness from certain games. The first time was with Wolfenstein 3D and the last time with Morrowind. I am pretty happy that apart from those two I haven't had many experiences like that.I got sick at a few times when I played a bit too excessively (ignoring that I was tired and/or hungry) though. Everything is toxic in the wrong dose.

3nails4you
20th Nov 2008, 19:14
Well, it is disable-able for most games that have it...but I LOVE it.

Jerion
20th Nov 2008, 19:21
I haven't found head-bob to be an issue, but that's just me. So making it optional should be fine. :)

v.dog
20th Nov 2008, 19:36
It doesn't make me sick, but I turn it off where I can; it makes it easier to gun and run.

K^2
20th Nov 2008, 22:23
It doesn't make me sick, but I turn it off where I can; it makes it easier to gun and run.
Precisely why it shouldn't be an option. It should either be in or out. Though, as a compromise, I'd accept screen holding still and head bob affecting the aiming reticle instead.

gamer0004, motion sickness results from a disagreement between visual/pressure cues and inner ear cues. The inner ear channels responsible for balance can get flooded in certain types of poisoning. E.g. alcohol. So the body's reaction to a disagreement is to assume sickness due to food poisoning, triggering nausea.

If the screen tilts, it can produce similar result. However, head bob is not detectable by inner ear, so there is no disagreement. There should be no motion sickness response to head bob without some deviation from norm in physiology.

That said, there can be all sorts of deviation from norm. For example, I get almost no cues from my inner ear, so I feel perfectly fine no matter how crazy the motion is. I also don't get degradation of balance when drunk. On the negative side, if something obstructs my ability to sense direction visually, I tend to lose balance even when I'm perfectly fine.

I imagine an opposite can be true with an over-sensitive direction-sensing in the inner ear, which might trigger motion sickness from head bob.

Igoe
20th Nov 2008, 22:26
Nowadays theres an easy fix to that which is to have the WEAPON bob instead of the camera.

HL2, doom3, and DX:IW all did this for starters. Still simulates the "you are moving" aspect with none of the trouble that comes from bobbing cameras.

I'm fairly certain DX3 will take this route too.

Jerion
20th Nov 2008, 22:27
Yes- That's called Weapon Inertia. :)

Igoe
20th Nov 2008, 22:29
HL2 definitely had the inertia thing going, if you snapped your view in any direction your weapon lagged to follow, so if you looked to the left really fast your view would instantly move but your weapon would slowly and smoothly coast back its original state.

I like it! (just not a fan of the 'look at your own feet' thing like Halo)

Jerion
20th Nov 2008, 22:31
HL2 definitely had the inertia thing going, if you snapped your view in any direction your weapon lagged to follow, so if you looked to the left really fast your view would instantly move but your weapon would slowly and smoothly coast back its original state.

I like it! (just not a fan of the 'look at your own feet' thing like Halo)

I like the "see your own body" idea. Mirrors Edge does this very well.

GmanPro
20th Nov 2008, 22:32
^^
I guess, but I'm going to miss being a floating ball :)

spm1138
20th Nov 2008, 22:58
Precisely why it shouldn't be an option. It should either be in or out. Though, as a compromise, I'd accept screen holding still and head bob affecting the aiming reticle instead.

gamer0004, motion sickness results from a disagreement between visual/pressure cues and inner ear cues. The inner ear channels responsible for balance can get flooded in certain types of poisoning. E.g. alcohol. So the body's reaction to a disagreement is to assume sickness due to food poisoning, triggering nausea.

If the screen tilts, it can produce similar result. However, head bob is not detectable by inner ear, so there is no disagreement. There should be no motion sickness response to head bob without some deviation from norm in physiology.

That said, there can be all sorts of deviation from norm. For example, I get almost no cues from my inner ear, so I feel perfectly fine no matter how crazy the motion is. I also don't get degradation of balance when drunk. On the negative side, if something obstructs my ability to sense direction visually, I tend to lose balance even when I'm perfectly fine.

I imagine an opposite can be true with an over-sensitive direction-sensing in the inner ear, which might trigger motion sickness from head bob.

It's a relatively well known phenomenon with videogames and simulators.

Apparently it's probably down to the mismatch between what you're seeing and what your inner ear is detecting.

K^2
21st Nov 2008, 01:45
The phenomenon may well be known, but it isn't the kind of thing that can effect the majority. Motion sickness, on the other hand, is capable of effecting nearly everyone. Some more than others, though.


I like the "see your own body" idea. Mirrors Edge does this very well.
There are quite a few games that have done that well. I remember when it was fairly knew thing when it was added to Thief III. They called it "body awareness". I think, that is what it is normally called now.

Problem is, body awareness almost forces the head bob. With such system, camera has to be attached to the head of the character model, which will bob during animation. I suppose, one can reduce the effect by attaching camera with a simulated damped spring, making sure that the natural frequency of the spring is removed from any component frequencies of the bobbing oscillation.

GmanPro
21st Nov 2008, 01:50
Couldn't you just force the camera to follow the model and be a little bit ahead of it? Instead of parenting it to the model? It seems to me like that wouldn't be overly complicated...

Mr. Perfect
21st Nov 2008, 02:40
Having the players point of view bob around is always distracting. It's not something that you even notice in real life, so making it apparent in games feels unnatural. Personally, I turn the option off whenever possible.


HL2 definitely had the inertia thing going, if you snapped your view in any direction your weapon lagged to follow, so if you looked to the left really fast your view would instantly move but your weapon would slowly and smoothly coast back its original state.

I dunno, that would fairly well suck if it prevented you from firing correctly. Was it purely cosmetic? I couldn't stand reacting fast enough, but being artificially limited by the game to preserve realism or some foolish nonsense like that.

What does work is when the weapon bob is cosmetic only. BattleField does this, so you know when you're moving, as well as what direction and how fast. However, it has no effect whatsoever on aiming and firing. Firing is left completely up to player skill. No limits. :cool:

GmanPro
21st Nov 2008, 05:09
Yeah, its purely aesthetic. Fallout 3 and some other games do it too. The gun still fires where your hud crosshair is pointed.

Igoe
21st Nov 2008, 05:15
I've no idea if it is or not, but have you played HL2?

The firing system is fine, at least for me.

If it's not cosmetic, it's not very noticeable.

It just makes the movements a tad more realistic looking, because I'm sure we all hold a gun in the exact same position and never move or flinch as we rotate to different targets, right?

K^2
21st Nov 2008, 05:49
Couldn't you just force the camera to follow the model and be a little bit ahead of it? Instead of parenting it to the model? It seems to me like that wouldn't be overly complicated...
That was my first thought when I was considering it, actually, but then how do you work with character crouching, for example? Or jumping? And what if you throw in Euphoria-like responses to environment? Using a simulated spring is the best solution. It would do the same thing for you as suspension on the car.

Ihsan
21st Nov 2008, 11:27
I find it strange now when i play an fps and there is no head bob, makes me feel like im controling a hover craft or something. But i dont see why they shouldnt put the option to turn it off in.

spm1138
21st Nov 2008, 15:15
I've no idea if it is or not, but have you played HL2?

The firing system is fine, at least for me.

If it's not cosmetic, it's not very noticeable.

It just makes the movements a tad more realistic looking, because I'm sure we all hold a gun in the exact same position and never move or flinch as we rotate to different targets, right?

HL2 uses the same old CoF system.

The model swing is cosmetic.

There are a couple of games that accurately model where the bore of the weapon is pointing but not many and it tends to be a niche realism shooter thing.

3nails4you
21st Nov 2008, 16:15
I don't know if anyone played Alone in the Dark, but it had a pretty sweet inventory/view system. You actually opened your coat and had the slots for different weapons and items to manage your inventory, and if you get hurt you pull out a bandage or some medical spray and patch yourself up. It had the whole "you can see your feet" system going on. You could switch to 3rd person anytime you wanted, and anytime it switched to third you could switch to first.

GmanPro
21st Nov 2008, 16:44
I was going to get that game, but I didn't because I heard a lot of bad things about it.

3nails4you
21st Nov 2008, 20:23
I was only able to play it for about 15 minutes, but the environment interaction was also pretty sweet.

Mr. Perfect
22nd Nov 2008, 01:04
That's a cool inventory system though. Now we know why JC's trench coat was so big! :)

GmanPro
22nd Nov 2008, 03:25
^^
You mean besides being able to scare the NSF with a coat that makes him look bigger than he actually it? :D

ZylonBane
22nd Nov 2008, 03:32
Nowadays theres an easy fix to that which is to have the WEAPON bob instead of the camera.
If by "nowadays" you mean "since the original Doom".