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spm1138
13th Nov 2008, 10:24
So I was watching Ghost In The Shell and there's an episode where Togusa disables a cyborg by shooting out control circuits in his limbs.

It struck me as potentially an interesting feature for a game set in the era of mech augs.

Look at Barret's arm (interesting trivia: apparently Batou's design was inspired by the minotaur) and all the complicated gubbins visible there. What if you could shoot out the ammo feed for his gun?

Ditto any of the tougher enemies I suppose.

Letting the player gimp the more dangerous combat cyborgs would be an interesting feature. Maybe it could become a variety of non-lethal combat. You could immobilize a cyborgs arms/legs and they'd be out of the fight. The MJ12 commandos/MiBs/templars were kind of on their feet or out of the fight with no real middle ground.

I was also thinking that if you were to introduce more precise hit locations it might be nice to divide the torso up a bit more.

UT99 could only do so much with hit locations (it's actually kind of impressive they had arms and legs - stock UT only has a cylinder the top portion of which is designated head) but modern engines can do more so there's no reason you couldn't have a smaller region of the torso designated as the cardiovascular system with a higher damage multiplier.

I thought this might tie into the more skill-based weapon usage by rewarding aimed shots (like headshots I suppose). Precise fire to vulnerable spots would be rewarded vs. just spamming bullets.

Anyway, just thinking aloud.

K^2
13th Nov 2008, 11:51
Yeah, that would definitely be interesting.

Modern game engines have either hit-boxes attached to principal bones, or even a fully animated low-resolution model to detect collisions. The same geometry can be used to detect bullet hits rather precisely. Certainly enough to designate areas as critical for this or that function.

This can be generalized further. One could set up a critical point for just about any function. Joints for legs and arms. Various actuators, circuits, and tubes for augs. This would then apply to generic characters, bosses, and even player himself. It would require some interesting changes in strategy if, for example, an aug you were planning on using in combat gets shot out.

That is in addition, of course, to locational damage, which I think is a must.

Speaking of which, people have said that auto-heal contradicts idea of crippling effects. However, to use another example from Fallout 3, why not have crippling effects separate from overall health. Consuming foods or applying stimpack towards general health does not remove crippling effects in that game. You have to either use stimpack towards the particular body part or get healed by doctor/sleep.

Why couldn't DX3 use a similar approach with auto-heal? Fine, let the general health replenish as time passes (though, I think it should be very slow, and an upper cap, like in Tomb Raider Underworld, wouldn't hurt either). But if you have been shot, say, in a leg, and it is crippled, it should remain so, slowing you down, until you get it fixed by a med kit, med bot, or something like that.

Similar idea would go for augs. If an aug has been shot out, it should remain so until specifically fixed either by a special item or a repair bot. In this case, having shot up does not require you to load the game. You will still have an option to crawl to safety, regenerate, and try to make a break for it. But you retain the strategy of using med packs and other resources.

GmanPro
13th Nov 2008, 12:37
Speaking of which, people have said that auto-heal contradicts idea of crippling effects. However, to use another example from Fallout 3, why not have crippling effects separate from overall health. Consuming foods or applying stimpack towards general health does not remove crippling effects in that game. You have to either use stimpack towards the particular body part or get healed by doctor/sleep.



Not true. In Fallout 3, you could apply a stimpack directly to a limb and it would heal only the cripple meter of that limb, but even if you just took a stimpack, it would spread a little bit of healing to all of your limbs.

If you get your augs shot out, you'd just move behind some crates and wait for them to heal back. :mad2:

I really think/hope they do it differently from that but you can see why I'm really upset over the constant mention of CoD4...

Jerion
13th Nov 2008, 12:41
Not true. In Fallout 3, you could apply a stimpack directly to a limb and it would heal only the cripple meter of that limb, but even if you just took a stimpack, it would spread a little bit of healing to all of your limbs.

If you get your augs shot out, you'd just move behind some crates and wait for them to heal back. :mad2:

I really think/hope they do it differently from that but you can see why I'm really upset over the constant mention of CoD4...

I don't think you're understanding what he's saying. He's not proposing a system identical to Fallout 3, he's suggesting a similar system using Fallout 3 as a comparison.

GmanPro
13th Nov 2008, 12:43
I don't think you're understanding what he's saying. He's not proposing a system identical to Fallout 3, he's suggesting a similar system using Fallout 3 as a comparison.

Yeah, I know. Just pointing out that you didn't have to apply a stimpack directly to a limb to heal the cripple meter.

And also expressing my upsettiness over auto-heal again. :thumbsup:

Jerion
13th Nov 2008, 12:47
Yeah, I know. Just pointing out that you didn't have to apply a stimpack directly to a limb to heal the cripple meter.

And also expressing my upsettiness over auto-heal again. :thumbsup:

Just so we're clear. :)

Oh, and there's an entire thread devoted to *****ing about auto-heal. I respect your opinion about it and I might even agree, but please, you don't have to bring it up all the time. ;)

Ritter
13th Nov 2008, 16:58
Now that you've mentioned locational damage,how the hell are we gonna get locational damage if we'll have auto reg health?I ******* hate Halo for introducing this auto regenerating health **** :mad2:

Jerion
13th Nov 2008, 17:10
Now that you've mentioned locational damage,how the hell are we gonna get locational damage if we'll have auto reg health?I ******* hate Halo for introducing this auto regenerating health **** :mad2:

Did you read K^2's post?

Ritter
13th Nov 2008, 17:12
Did you read K^2's post?

Yes I did,it was interesting but still the game'll still be too easy with a system like that.I say we implement bleeding effect(yes mechs do bleed,I've tried it with anna and gunther) in the game,oh wait it won't mix with auto heal,sigh.

Ritter
13th Nov 2008, 17:14
In fact I just want them to get rid of auto-heal,ffs this is Deus ex,not some run and gun game like Halo and COD.Too bad nothing we're saying now will affect the development of the game,at least not that much.Our only hope is the modding community

Yerky
13th Nov 2008, 17:16
A mechanic skill would go great with locational aug disabling. Players could mod/repair weapons, bots, and augs and hotwire cars.

Ritter
13th Nov 2008, 17:19
Can someone remind me if there'll be a skill system to upgrade like Deus ex 1,not just upgrading weapon(in fact,upgrading weapon with skillpoints is just plain stupid and unrealistic),haven't been to this board for a while

Jerion
13th Nov 2008, 17:26
You know, there is a very easy way to describe how auto-health regen meets localised damage. Think DX 1. Now think of having your torso in the red, one leg gone, the other in the red, both arms in the yellow area, and the head in the yellow area.

There. See? In that situation, the first thing you are going to do is turn on the Regeneration Aug. With DX 3's auto-regen, the game just does it for you, saving you the time of hitting F10 on the keyboard so that you can focus on either evading further gunplay or jumping back out into the firefight.

GmanPro
13th Nov 2008, 18:28
What is so hard about hitting a key to turn it on!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??! :mad2:

On a side note, AJ should totally explode when he dies. All the mechs seemed to do that in DX.

Jerion
13th Nov 2008, 18:37
What is so hard about hitting a key to turn it on!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??! :mad2:

Nothing. Except now they can assign that key to one more cool feature than you would have otherwise, and you don't really notice much of a difference. ;)

Blade_hunter
13th Nov 2008, 18:43
http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/7291/crotchshotuz9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

What do you think about having a crotch shot in DX 3 ?

foxberg
13th Nov 2008, 18:56
You know, there is a very easy way to describe how auto-health regen meets localised damage. Think DX 1. Now think of having your torso in the red, one leg gone, the other in the red, both arms in the yellow area, and the head in the yellow area.

There. See? In that situation, the first thing you are going to do is turn on the Regeneration Aug. With DX 3's auto-regen, the game just does it for you, saving you the time of hitting F10 on the keyboard so that you can focus on either evading further gunplay or jumping back out into the firefight.

I'm sorry, but it's F9. Yes, there's a similarity. The only difference is that in DX1 you couldn't do it forever. You had to have enough bio-cells to recharge your bio-energy or a repair bot nearby. Auto-heal is like having a repair bot in your pocket, just worse - the one that doesn't even take time to recharge itself.

Bluey71
13th Nov 2008, 18:58
I'm sorry, but it's F9. Yes, there's a similarity. The only difference is that in DX1 you couldn't do it forever. You had to have enough bio-cells to recharge your bio-energy or a repair bot nearby. Auto-heal is like having a repair bot in your pocket, just worse - the one that doesn't even take time to recharge itself.


Ah good, you already said it.

Jerion
13th Nov 2008, 20:05
Okay, fair point. Although auto-regen could essentially be a mechanical aug that injects you with stims and the like. It's always on, like DX 1's infolink. However, it could be disabled by that aug getting physically shot, in a system like K^2 proposed. :D

GmanPro
13th Nov 2008, 20:07
There's another difference too between auto-regen and the regen aug.

The regeneration aug could be turned on during a fire fight. Whilst auto-regen is totally annoying because you need to hide behind cover and wait 10 seconds for it to kick in.

I'd rather turn my bioelectric cells into more efficient health kits than have auto-regen dictate when and how I heal myself.

But seriously... I want mechs to explode when they die like in DX1! :D :D

spm1138
13th Nov 2008, 22:03
ITT: Spergin.

Oh, my bad.

Gmanpro managed to make one comment that wasn't endless babbling about the health regen system :rasp:

GmanPro
13th Nov 2008, 22:50
^^
;)
:thumbsup:

------------------------------

So anyway, taking prisoners. Does anyone remember Jedi Knight 2? When I see that title I think about that scene pretty early in the game where you (Kyle Katarn) grab one of the imperial remnant officers and lead him around with a gun to his back. And he would unlock a bunch of doors that were previously inaccessible.

Obviously this is DX so there should be a multitude of ways to go about opening locked doors/bypassing locked doors. But that's what I think about when I see "taking prisoners."

GmanPro
13th Nov 2008, 23:12
Not if they do it properly.

It doesn't have to be every single npc mind you. You should only really be able to do something like this with a high ranking officer/security guard chief or someone else who would conceivably have high-security clearance.

Ritter
13th Nov 2008, 23:15
Not if they do it properly.

It doesn't have to be every single npc mind you. You should only really be able to do something like this with a high ranking officer/security guard chief or someone else who would conceivably have high-security clearance.

oh well,then there'll be another way for non-hacking and non-lock picking player to unlock doors,you got my vote on that idea

GmanPro
13th Nov 2008, 23:33
So with that you can now... If you want to get to a restricted area/blocked off room you could:

.Pick the lock.
.Hack/login to a terminal to gain access.
--simply unlock the door with the terminal
--fill the room with poison gas to try to get whoever is inside to come out
--take control of a turret/robot and use it to destroy the door.
--et cetera...
.Use a LAM or other explosive to destroy the door.
--maybe use a combat knife or other melee weapon if the door is weak.
.Find another way around (vents/secret passage etc...).
.Trigger an alarm and have npc's on the other side come outside.
.Take someone prisoner and have them unlock the door.
.Find a key for the door.
.Ignore the door and find another way to complete your objectives.

Did I miss anything? :scratch:

This is why I love Deus Ex so much. You don't see that kind of freedom in other games.

spm1138
14th Nov 2008, 00:11
I'd really enjoy making people unlock doors for me, and using them as human shields when they are obsolete. But it would take two million years and two billion dollars to implement in DX3, no?

Hitman, Splinter Cell, Metal Gear Solid etc. have had that feature for years without a budget quite that large.

It's actually a pretty cool idea now that you mention it :thumbsup:

foxberg
14th Nov 2008, 13:46
oh well,then there'll be another way for non-hacking and non-lock picking player to unlock doors,you got my vote on that idea

Not at all. Have you played any of the Splinter Cell games? A perfect combination or hacking, stealth, interrogations, etc. BTW, interrogation aspect would be a very welcome addition to DX3 (The real interrogation, not like the one inside the Statue of Liberty in DX1).

K^2
14th Nov 2008, 17:45
Not true. In Fallout 3, you could apply a stimpack directly to a limb and it would heal only the cripple meter of that limb, but even if you just took a stimpack, it would spread a little bit of healing to all of your limbs.
I know that you could do that. Same worked in Deus Ex, by the way. The difference is that if the stimpack isn't applied to a limb, then the crippling effects don't go away, even if the limb health is back to normal. That's what I was really trying to point out. If DX3 does that, then we can still have locational damage and crippling effects despite auto-heal.

I say we implement bleeding effect(yes mechs do bleed,I've tried it with anna and gunther) in the game,oh wait it won't mix with auto heal,sigh.
Yeah, bleeding would probably be out. I suppose, one could still implement both bleeding and auto-regen, but that defeats the purpose of auto-regen in most cases.

Mindmute
14th Nov 2008, 17:54
Yeah, bleeding would probably be out. I suppose, one could still implement both bleeding and auto-regen, but that defeats the purpose of auto-regen in most cases.

Creativity stops the "crash" between the two features...
One thing that popped to mind was:
While bleeding you don't auto-heal. To stop bleeding you'd have to find some way to bandage yourself, either through conventional bandages or something improvised from the world (example: ripping a piece of a dead enemy's uniform and using it as bandages or a torniquet).

There are several things they can come up with, to actually add depth to the auto-heal. The main issue I see with most is that you have to find out how to do them, without turning them into a gimmick..

K^2
14th Nov 2008, 17:59
Mindmute, the devs argument auto-heal as a method that prevents you from getting stuck in the game. Id est, you auto-heal regardless of anything if you find a good hiding spot.

If they would allow you to bleed to death without using some set of items, it would contradict that principle. Therefore, bleeding, as it was in Deus Ex, is out of question.

They could, in theory, limit duration of bleeding and do a few other things, but you still can't argue that adding bleeding as a feature doesn't directly contradict the motivation behind auto-healing, even if it doesn't contradict the mechanism itself.

Mindmute
14th Nov 2008, 18:05
They could, in theory, limit duration of bleeding and do a few other things, but you still can't argue that adding bleeding as a feature doesn't directly contradict the motivation behind auto-healing, even if it doesn't contradict the mechanism itself.

I was only argueing that it doesn't *have* to contradict the mechanism. I completely agree that it contradicts the motivation behind implementing it.
Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.