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Divine Shadow
12th Nov 2008, 03:43
After reading Rabban's post regarding a cancelled LOK game (http://nosgoth.yuku.com/topic/5523), I decided to perform some research of my own. Brace yourselves...



]

By investigating my way through the websites of game artist Aaron Hausmann (http://methhaus.com/), artist and animator Ranjeet Singhal (http://rungy.us/), and the website of artist Jason Muck (http://www.jasonmuck.com/Main/The%20artwork%20of%20Jason%20Muck%20Main_LegacyofKain.htm), I've managed to establish that Crystal Dynamics were six months into production of a game called Legacy of Kain - The Dark Prophecy before the project was cancelled by Eidos.

http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_01.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_01.jpg)http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_02.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_02.jpg)http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_03.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_03.jpg)

http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_04.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_04.jpg)http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_05.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_05.jpg)http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_06.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_06.jpg)

http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_07.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_07.jpg)http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_08.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_08.jpg)http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_09.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_09.jpg)

http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_10.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_10.jpg)http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_11.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_11.jpg)http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_12.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_12.jpg)

http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_13.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_13.jpg)http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_14.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_14.jpg)http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_15.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_15.jpg)

http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_16.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_16.jpg)http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_17.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_17.jpg)http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_18.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_18.jpg)

http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_19.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_19.jpg)http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_20.jpg (http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_20.jpg)


http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/th_KainSceen_01.jpg (http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/KainSceen_01.jpg)http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/th_KainSceen_02.jpg (http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/KainSceen_02.jpg)http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/th_KainSceen_03.jpg (http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/KainSceen_03.jpg)

http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/th_KainSceen_04.jpg (http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/KainSceen_04.jpg)http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/th_KainSceen_05.jpg (http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/KainSceen_05.jpg)http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/th_KainSceen_06.jpg (http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/KainSceen_06.jpg)

http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/th_KainSceen_07.jpg (http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/KainSceen_07.jpg)http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/th_KainSceen_08.jpg (http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/KainSceen_08.jpg)http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/th_KainSceen_09.jpg (http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/KainSceen_09.jpg)

http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/th_LOK_CrystalRocks_01.jpg (http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/LOK_CrystalRocks_01.jpg)http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/th_LOK_Pillars_01.jpg (http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/LOK_Pillars_01.jpg)http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/th_LOK_SpikeSet_01.jpg (http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/LOK_SpikeSet_01.jpg)

http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/th_LOK_Statues_01.jpg (http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/LOK_Statues_01.jpg)http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/th_LOK_WeaponSet_01.jpg (http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/LOK_WeaponSet_01.jpg)http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/th_LOK_WindowSet_01.jpg (http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/LOK_WindowSet_01.jpg)


The game seems to have been much further along than I had anticipated before it was cancelled. The premise appears to involve Kain between his Blood Omen 2 Warlord, and Soul Reaver Dark-God states.

Damn, I would have played this game!

I created a topic on Neogaf (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13592252) for my discoveries, and thought I'd share them here.

Gribbix
12th Nov 2008, 04:54
Nice detective work. I saw that post at Neogaf and decided to come pay this forum (and the NR forum) a visit after a long hiatus. I lurked at both forums for a long time. This is my first time posting.

The_Hylden
12th Nov 2008, 06:32
Um, can someone please explain to me why all of these screens are nothing but fan compilations (the larger above shots) seen many times before and the smaller ones simple compilations of Kain from Defiance with the same health bar, etc., mixed with similar screens from Defiance and other games?

We know of Photoshop and other various software. At least, I do. If it's the intention of this to be an early April Fool's joke, it failed, miserably.

Now, if you have proof of something, why in the hell would you post these obvious fake screens??

Sad.

Divine Shadow
12th Nov 2008, 06:51
Um, can someone please explain to me why all of these screens are nothing but fan compilations (the larger above shots) seen many times before and the smaller ones simple compilations of Kain from Defiance with the same health bar, etc., mixed with similar screens from Defiance and other games?

We know of Photoshop and other various software. At least, I do. If it's the intention of this to be an early April Fool's joke, it failed, miserably.

Now, if you have proof of something, why in the hell would you post these obvious fake screens??

Sad.

So, let me get this straight. In order to fool the few Legacy of Kain fans who still visit this forum, I did the following:

1. I registered and paid for three different websites, and set them up in vastly different styles. Accompanying each of these three websites is a fake email address to help reinforce my deception.

2. I commited mass identity fraud, by pretending to be individuals on the Defiance team, up to and including making a fake CV for each of them.

3. I somehow with no programming experience, manage to hack the Defiance engine, creating new models and environments, and put them into the game, for the express purpose of taking low-quality screenshots.

4. I learned a degree of Photoshop skill that, somehow, can make brand new environments out of nothing. A skill so far undiscovered by the rest of humanity.

If you truly believe that, then you are not worth my time. If however you have come to your senses, an apology for calling me 'sad' would be acceptable.

Gribbix
12th Nov 2008, 06:53
Um, can someone please explain to me why all of these screens are nothing but fan compilations (the larger above shots) seen many times before and the smaller ones simple compilations of Kain from Defiance with the same health bar, etc., mixed with similar screens from Defiance and other games?

We know of Photoshop and other various software. At least, I do. If it's the intention of this to be an early April Fool's joke, it failed, miserably.

Now, if you have proof of something, why in the hell would you post these obvious fake screens??

Sad.

They aren't fakes. Click on the links. All three people worked at or were contracted by the same company, Ritual Entertainment. Are you honestly trying to suggest that Divine Shadow went through the trouble of paying for the domain names and forging three different websites along with all the different artwork/demo reels from various different games? These images are legit.

EDIT: Looks like Divine Shadow already covered it.

Divine Shadow
12th Nov 2008, 06:54
Nice detective work. I saw that post at Neogaf and decided to come pay this forum (and the NR forum) a visit after a long hiatus. I lurked at both forums for a long time. This is my first time posting.

Thanks! I'm going to have a look through more of Eidos / CD's staff's websites and see if there are any more pieces of this lost game to discover!

The_Hylden
12th Nov 2008, 07:08
To Divine Shadow:

I'm not suggesting anything. I am TELLING you that these screen shots are OBVIOUS fakes. I never implied YOU, nor anyone else you are affiliated with made them, just that I've personally seen then for ages back on the NR forums -- the larger screens -- while the smaller ones are just Kain from Defiance mixed into warped Defiance areas, and other backgrounds. These. Are. Fakes.

You will get no apology. Not for wasting our time. If you found these on those sites and believed them, I am sorry that you've believed in the lie only, as it's not you're fault. If you are simply trying to pander the sites and these screens off to start something here, then I AM blaming you and your coincidental follower here entirely.

Yes.

And Ritual Entertainment means nothing. You know why? They've never EVER been affiliated with Eidos Interactive. Ever.

I'm no longer arguing this point. No-one will believe this crap on here, so if this is some lame attempt, as it seems to be, at causing a stir on here. It's finito.

Gribbix
12th Nov 2008, 07:15
And Ritual Entertainment means nothing. You know why? They've never EVER been affiliated with Eidos Interactive. Ever.


Is that so? See this link ---> http://www.25tolife.com/. Click it. Tell me whose logo that is at the bottom right? Ritual Entertainment. Now who published this game? Eidos Interactive. Now go back and check the three 'forged' websites. All three of them worked at Ritual Entertainment and all three of them worked on 25 to Life.

Yautjatraker/Albatraous
12th Nov 2008, 07:46
The Kain image from http://rungy.us/ I don't really think is real, simply because that website is very poorly put together, and has not been updated in ages. The guy is an artist, yet his website looks like it was put together by a school kid, especially the logo.

As for the rest of the screenshots, they look too good to be true. The texture details looks quite high, as do the quality of the models. If this was only a few months into development, I doubt they would be of this quality.

The main thing that doesn't sell it to me is the camera. It looks like a combination of a cinematic camera and a behind the person view. Possible, but I very much doubt it would have both of them.

A good find, but unless someone from Eidos can directly verify those were actual work in progress, I will remain sceptical.

I hope to be proved wrong, and those are going to be used (in some way) in the next game.

theextremepiercing
12th Nov 2008, 09:37
The image with the BO2 Kain jumping about inside the Sarafan Stronghold is clearly fake.

I'm inclined to believe that the others are genuine, however. Granted, Kain's model and the HUD are exactly the same as in Defiance, but if you follow the development of games it's easy to think that these could just be placeholders (and SR2 used the same HUD as SR1 :) ).

Yautjatraker/Albatraous mentioned that the camera seems to be all over the place. This could easily be done by the programmers using debug menus. And I definitely don't think the screenshots are "too good to be true". It seems that this is just one area, that the programmers were able to design well. Unfortunately, they weren't able to design the rest of the game. :(

It seems natural that details would escape via programmers who are no longer affiliated with CD/Eidos.

EDIT: It couldn't hurt to speculate about the nature of some of these screenshots, could it?

There's no telling who the ice fortress belongs to; it's guarded by some sort of animated guards (Thralls?), and there's a Sarafan symbol mixed in with some statues of winged creatures.

Could the Hylden have something to do with the room with the massive metal faces?

RainaAudron
12th Nov 2008, 11:56
are those fake? I thought they´re real...:scratch:
I have never seen before those shots, nor the enviroment - are those statues hylden faces?

Balance_Reaver
12th Nov 2008, 12:18
I just don't know what to think about it.
But I don't understand something about those screens - why the Soul Reaver looks like the Blood Reaver? Shouldn’t the sword glow as it was at the end of Defiance?

Tes
12th Nov 2008, 13:39
I just don't know what to think about it.
But I don't understand something about those screens - why the Soul Reaver looks like the Blood Reaver? Shouldn’t the sword glow as it was at the end of Defiance?

Probably because it's just a placeholder, if it is real.

But even if it is fake, those screenies look pretty awesome to me, unfinished as they are. Or maybe I'm getting desperate. :whistle:

blincoln
12th Nov 2008, 17:59
I'm not suggesting anything. I am TELLING you that these screen shots are OBVIOUS fakes. I never implied YOU, nor anyone else you are affiliated with made them, just that I've personally seen then for ages back on the NR forums -- the larger screens -- while the smaller ones are just Kain from Defiance mixed into warped Defiance areas, and other backgrounds. These. Are. Fakes.

The big one isn't a "fake", it's a mockup. When artists mock things up, they use the same tools as when fans make fake images.

The smaller ones are "Kain from Defiance mixed into... other backgrounds" because this work was done in the months after Defiance was released. Just like the first screenshots of Soul Reaver 2 were basically the Soul Reaver engine with different areas.

It's one thing to respectfully disagree with someone, but you're being incredibly rude *and* your argument is also weak. While I guess it's remotely possible that this is some elaborate viral marketing campaign that DS stumbled upon... years after it would have had any effect... Occam's Razor agrees with DS' assessment.

The_Hylden
12th Nov 2008, 18:37
Oh, it's a "mock-up." Like I don't know what a mock-up is. The fact is, those screens were shown by someone on NR more than a year ago as a "Look what I did! I put BO2 Kain in Defiance!" Though of course the background is also a mock-up, or fake, and not mostly from Defiance either. The texture on the dais is, but little else. Seems funny to me that some artist claims then that these were just his own project, and you can clearly see it's just Kain from BO2, chopped up, and proportions stretched, with adjustments to the clothing, then suddenly now we're shown these images from some amateurish website of some guy, who's claiming to be a professional artist with this company, who created these screens. Furthermore, they were intended in a game that's set between BO2 and SR1's eras. Funny, considering the fan-base probably wouldn't respond to such a game in the first place. We're all mostly in agreement that first, and foremost, we'd love to see the end of Kain's story. Save the prequels, sub-plots, etc., for after that's done.

But beyond that, expecting anyone to believe that those images were intended for an actual game is ridiculous. The bigger ones. Adding the knowledge that, with my own eyes, I've seen these images as someone's proclaimed personal project before, makes it all the more ridiculous now.

Now, you can think me rude, blincoln. I really don't care. Anyone who debates with me on these forums knows that I debate fairly, take the time to listen and explain myself, etc., The only times I ever get short with people is when something is proposed that seems to be for the purpose of being ludicrous. Case in point. When first asking Divine Shadow up there to explain why the above images are fakes by another artist, look so fake, how they are supposed to be real, the answer I got was more than telling of something very wrong here. Instead of saying simply that's what he's found. Unless the website creator is lying, that's all he can go on, or something of that nature, he instead went into a 4 point dictation of how he's suddenly being accused of making the website himself for spam, making the images himself, making a false account to spam the board, etc., etc. Now, nowhere in my post did I ever accuse him of any of that.

In my experience in life, when someone gets so defensive they deny anything before even being accused, there's usually something majorly wrong. I also am most suspicious of some other account up there that just coincidentally appears taking his side. Oh yeah, I saw these and just happened to decide to start posting again.

I'm not suggesting this is some viral campaign. I am suggesting that it looks to be just what it is: something to stir the board up. To which, it seems to be something to hurt the hope many still have on here for a new game some day. Oh, sorry to tell you all, but I've come upon this evidence of a game that was 6 months in development right after Defiance, but Eidos pulled the plug. Guess there's no more hope. Sorry guys...

And fakes these are. I still say. My argument isn't any weaker than his in saying they are actual. Some guy on a website that doesn't look all that great stating they work for a company Eidos doesn't contract with to produce the LoK series doesn't hold much weight (yes, I see they helped make 25 to Life). Anything official coming down the pipeline from Eidos would. Chrystal Dynamics, from what I've heard from people on this board, was split into two. One team that worked on Tomb Raider: Anniversary and one that's doing Underworld. It would have been the team working on Anniversary that would have started any work on an LoK game. That's from the people here. Maybe they're mistaken...

And doing my own research, these screens look much like a mod for The Witcher. Same architecture, etc. Not to say they are from that game, but the screens are very similar.

Again, I do not get rude with people. I only get short when I believe something is being done for reasons that aren't right. I even explained in my post that if Divine Shadow simply came upon these and thinks they are accurate, I am not accusing him, specifically, of anything. But, the images aren't real. If I am proven wrong, and only then, I will certainly apologize.

Until then, and until something real and tangible from an official source pops up in the research, I do not enjoy seeing a thread made that has none. Again, the first images are fakes, which takes the steam out of any credibility for the rest, not that the images themselves aren't discrediting enough.

If anyone finds me rude, it's not my intent, but so be it. I'd rather defend the fandom by being so then see its hope deflated needlessly. I also will admit that I, unfortunately, have little trust in most anyone from NR.

This all being said, I stated in my LAST post that I was done arguing, meaning people can think what they will from here on out. And I stick by that.

blincoln
12th Nov 2008, 19:06
Person #1: Aaron Hausmann

IMDB credits for Medal of Honor: Airborne (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1085850/fullcredits) - credited as "environment artist: Ritual Entertainment Inc."

Person #2: Ranjeet Singhal

Wikipedia information for his former employer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey_Software) now credits him with working for Ritual.

Some (http://paranoid.planetquake.gamespy.com/) other (http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,104395/) documentation of Ranjeet's long-running career in game-related art.

Person #3: Jason Muck

MobyGames credits for 25 to Life (http://www.mobygames.com/game/xbox/25-to-life/credits) - credits him as an artist from Ritual.

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Conclusion

Note that both Aaron and Jason used their personal contact information for their domain registrations which includes addresses in Texas. What else is in Texas? Hmm, how about Ritual Entertainment?

So there are basically two scenarios here:

1 - Aaron, Ranjeet, and Jason work for/used to work for Ritual. Previous to working on 25 To Life for Eidos, Ritual briefly worked on a Legacy of Kain sequel which was canceled. Four years later, their resumes include some material from this project in their portfolio because they are artists and need to document their abilities.

2 - Divine Shadow and his mysterious cabal of internet ninja warriors decide to play a "November Fools!" joke on the Legacy of Kain fanbase by establishing contact information in Texas (DS would need ninja warriors for this because he lives in the UK), registering three domain names (with three different DNS registration services, hosted by three different ISPs) using the names of artists who actually work for Ritual, and creating entire fake portfolios for them. Oh, and don't forget to note that all of the domain names were registered between about 1 and 3 years ago. Internet ninja warriors start laying their traps well in advance!

I think you are confusing Ranjeet's mockup with something else, or mixing up the contents of the post it was in at NR. I have seen someone post it before, but not claiming it was something they had made themselves. I'd always seen it with the text that it was from a Kain project. If you have the actual post to refer to, please feel free to provide a link.

The_Hylden
12th Nov 2008, 19:20
Hm...

Well, I must be getting old before my time. No, you're right. I must be confusing this. Sucks, because I could have sworn someone posted it as I stated. But, I am not looking for the thread. The above credentials are enough and I have no desire to return to NR.

I humbly apologize, everyone who's viewed this thread. I appear to be very wrong here. I definitely apologize to Divine Shadow. My distrust got in the way of viewing your efforts as genuine. I also apologize to Gribbix for any insinuations I made toward you. This all just seemed, to borrow a line, too convenient. But, alas...

Oh, and I definitely apologize to you, blincoln, for making you go through the effort of posting all of that.

*sigh*

Well, now that I've made a fool of myself... Guess I will check more of this out...

Edit: Actually, that's not enough. I hate seeing when jerks on the NET do nothing but bash people, or argue in ways they wouldn't in real life -- i.e., like I've just done. I was acting like the very thing I so despise. I don't usually do that, even in a heated debate. I seriously apologize and hopefully I won't act this stupid again.

carpepices
12th Nov 2008, 19:43
i'd just like to point out that it was me who posted that link in the NR forums under the name fallenvvarrior, no biggie though just saying.

blincoln
12th Nov 2008, 19:49
You should never apologize for asking people to back up their statements. I'm glad you motivated me to double-check their backgrounds, because I'm sure you're not the only one who was skeptical. Skepticism is good - it keeps people like me on our toes.
It's just important to keep the debate civil :). I'm not always the greatest at that myself, as you may have noticed in my reply.
Edit: also, if this were for a more current, high-profile game, it wouldn't have been out of the question that someone really did set up all that stuff as an elaborate viral marketing ploy.

Linikratyo
12th Nov 2008, 20:26
I hope we can get some more info of eidos about this....... :rolleyes:

The_Hylden
12th Nov 2008, 20:59
Yeah, that was the problem. I not only wasn't civil, instead of just being skeptical, I flat-out dismissed it entirely right off the bat. Seeing those initial pics that I saw, had to have been, a year ago now as new evidence was partly the trigger for me, I think. As stated, I must be confused as to their original origin when they first showed up. Also, it's amazing how much info IMDb has for ... everything. I mean, I didn't even think to look up the names there. If it were the writer, director, voice cast, sure, but it seems even for games IMBd is amazingly thorough these days. I find it amusing, weird, interesting, funny, that IMDb is fast becoming the one-stop database to rule them all, on everything media-related.

Anyway, thanks, blincoln. And now that I am actually able to look at these without going "FAKE!!" I can note some things. On LJ, these are also posted and skepticism is there too. Someone suggested the caverns shown look like the ones from BO2, insinuating that's their source alone. However, that's clearly not it. It does seriously remind me of the screens for The Witcher, which has some really similar architecture to LoK in general and would fit right in. So, that's not a criticism. The caves look much like an updated version of The Oracle caves. Another thing that gave me pause was looking at some of the screens that seem to combine existing Defiance architecture and dressings. For instance, the ones with the Ancient statues. I mean, they can be place holders too, of course, but they look exactly the same as the statues bearing one of the three weapons Raziel took to activate the Water Temple portal. In fact, it looks like we're either back in Vorador's mansion, in the back of that little part behind the pool/portal to the Water Temple, mixed with half the circular part in Avernus Cathedral, or we are in a modified Avernus... It's strange.

The ones with Kain roaming about in the snow and the somewhat circular stone structure looks either like we're back in the Sarafan Keep again, or further into the Vampire Citadel. It's very similar, although perhaps these are entirely supposed to be different areas.

Then you have the Hylden-like face in the one room, looking to be adorned with some elaborate head dress. That's probably my favorite screen section. That statue looks heavily molded on the relief mural of the Hylden female from BO2. It would definitely be cool to travel this time to more ancient Hylden structures, as there would have to be some still left to be unearthed in Nosgoth...

However, most of this looks like perhaps either an early build of Defiance areas, or stuff even that was ultimately cut from the game, rather than stuff that's new. But, with the build apparently so early in development, it's impossible to know where they would have been going with this all. I will note that those do not look like thralls to me. They actually look like Hylden spirits manipulating suits of armor, much in the same fashion Malek roamed around as just a suit of armor. There's even a female warrior there with a pike, but all spirit and just her armor/clothing.

Anyway, it's interesting, nonetheless. Perhaps, though, if and when Eidos gets around to doing a proper sequel, they can update with something a little less like the same old stuff, which is kind of what I am seeing here. However, there are some cool additions. I don't know.

blincoln
12th Nov 2008, 22:02
Yeah, I had similar feelings about the content. I chalked it up to being after only three months' work, and by people who were (I think?) new to working on the series, so they were probably still getting a feel for things.
There is a theory posted over at the NR forums that the shots with the animated armour are from a revisited Malek's Bastion, which I thought was kind of a neat idea, but I see what you mean about the green glow - that does look like the Hylden in Defiance.
It is really hard to tell anything for sure from this handful of screenshots. I was thinking that given the two Kain models, maybe it would have been split between events in two alternating eras (one as the young Kain uncovering the "Dark Prophecy" and the other as him watching it unfold centuries later, I guess) instead of between two characters.
There were a number of rumours of various sequel concepts in the years after Defiance. I'd be curious to know if this was related to any of them, or something no one in the public knew about.

Divine Shadow
13th Nov 2008, 01:37
No problem, The Hylden, I accept your apology. I admit that I took your response to be rather abrasive and rude, but I was rather condescending back to you in my reply, for which I also apologise. We can forget all that now. Thanks for the defence, Gribbix and Ben, though I now do want my own "mysterious cabal of internet ninja warriors" and feel more boring without them.

It is nice to have clarity on what exactly happened to the mythical sequel. My responses to the limited information we have:

1) Given the artwork, I like Ben's suggestion of two Kain's as the controllable characters.

2) The gameplay appears to build on Defiance's style, possibly maintaining its increased focus on combat. Defiance certainly had its strengths, but I prefer exploration over any other game genre, and thus Blood Omen (with its 2D-Zelda freeworld) and Soul Reaver (the Metroid Prime of its era) are my favourites. Additionally, I didn't have the issues with Defiance's camera that a number of others did, but I do prefer a free-camera without the rather-abrubt changes in position. A free camera is always more intuitive for me.

3) The cave screenshots, with emphasis on snow and sunlight peering through cracks, instantly placed the Soul Reaver era in mind. The accompanying spike models are very reminiscent of the impalement spikes also belonging to that era. Given the planned development for Defiance, in which Kain returned to his dead empire, this could be a possible locale.

4) The other screenshots show areas with possible emphasis on Hylden-eque architecture. The apparently animated suits of armour are very Blood-Omen Sarafan, suggesting the possibility of Malek's Bastion.

5) I don't like the title. The Dark Prophecy sounds very bland, and I think I've had my fill of prophecies since the Scion of Balance.

I've been checking the portfolio sites of a number of other Ritual Entertainment staff, not much in the way of megatons. Though, on Reid Kimball's CV (http://game.rbkdesign.com/resume.php), he mentions the following:




Unpublished Game with Eidos (XBOX, PS2)

* Created paper top-down view designs for singleplayer levels
* Implemented gameplay


Given the time he worked on this project at Rational, and the fact it is unpublished, there is a strong possibility of it being Dark Prophecy.

I wonder if Chris@Crystal is allowed to enlighten us on any of this. For that matter, does he even maintain a presence here?

Gribbix
13th Nov 2008, 02:59
That's alright, The Hylden. I apologize for my snide replies.

I'm really interested in learning more about this project. I'm guessing CD's involvement with this project was akin to how Tomb Raider Anniversary was developed. Judging by the credits section of that game, it appeared that CD did most of the design, animation, story, and art direction, but much of the programming and content creation was done by Buzz Monkey.

Andarthiel
13th Nov 2008, 03:51
I like what I see in those screenshots. Pity it was never finished, I just want an end to the LoK story for crying out loud.
I especially liked the cave areas from those screenshots, and I think they need to bring back the camera rotation feature of SR1 that would make life easier.

Rivenmjk
13th Nov 2008, 05:23
I just want an end to the LoK story for crying out loud.


amen to that brother.

everyone please calm down....sheesh again where is umah when we need her....

and who cares if this is fake or real i mean IT'S JUST A GAME!!

kain looks nice IMO!
:rasp:

The_Hylden
13th Nov 2008, 08:58
blincoln:


Yeah, I had similar feelings about the content. I chalked it up to being after only three months' work, and by people who were (I think?) new to working on the series, so they were probably still getting a feel for things.

It was three months? That's even less than I thought, so yeah. Makes sense that things are so similar. This would be nothing more, as you say, than a trial run for the new team to get their bearings.


It is really hard to tell anything for sure from this handful of screenshots. I was thinking that given the two Kain models, maybe it would have been split between events in two alternating eras (one as the young Kain uncovering the "Dark Prophecy" and the other as him watching it unfold centuries later, I guess) instead of between two characters.

I would actually love that, yes. Again it reminds me of my own fan-fic-turned-RPG I had a couple of years ago, where I was setting up Kain after BO2 taking full rule of Nosgoth and wanted to include Elder Kain in the past doing his thing after Defiance. Were things to have panned out like I had originally intended for that RPG, Kain would, besides gaining full control over Nosgoth after raising his Lieutenants, come together with the events leading to the past, tying the two arcs together. I think it makes perfect sense for something like that (not all of that with younger Kain, just tying something on his journey with his Elder self's fight in the past), and almost replaces the two simultaneous character storylines and protagonists of Defiance with, instead, two Kains (though both the same one, of course). If Eidos ever goes back to this concept, and that truly was what was intended, than I'd be all for it.

The Malek's Bastion thing would be fine -- very cool, in fact -- but I'd only wish for it if it had something pertaining to the story. Just to revisit wouldn't be worth it, if not. But, as I type this, I can already think of something to that end. What if they wanted to say Malek's Bastion was built over top of an ancient Hylden structure and what if even those machines that Malek was using to raise dead warriors were, in fact, of Hylden origin? Perhaps the subterranean Hylden-like chamber there with the statue of what looks to be a Hylden female then all coincides as being in the same place. Just a thought. But, I am sure they would include something pertaining to the current arc to include that as a local.

Divine Shadow:


No problem, The Hylden, I accept your apology. I admit that I took your response to be rather abrasive and rude, but I was rather condescending back to you in my reply, for which I also apologise. We can forget all that now.

Good, I am glad. And to be clear, originally I was intending the "sad" part of my post specifically to mean if this was a prank, mostly. I think my honestly bitterness toward NR, my own personal baggage I need to let go of, made it manifest toward you in general also. But, anyway. At least I realized my stupidity before we got to page two...


2) The gameplay appears to build on Defiance's style, possibly maintaining its increased focus on combat. Defiance certainly had its strengths, but I prefer exploration over any other game genre, and thus Blood Omen (with its 2D-Zelda freeworld) and Soul Reaver (the Metroid Prime of its era) are my favourites. Additionally, I didn't have the issues with Defiance's camera that a number of others did, but I do prefer a free-camera without the rather-abrubt changes in position. A free camera is always more intuitive for me.

Yeah, I probably feel the same. I didn't mind the camera either in Defiance, nor the Devil May Cry games (in fact, it's pretty awesome in concept and execution, mostly, in its own right). But, if I were to choose, I'd prefer Zelda and Metroid Prime in control. Interesting looking at the screens that the camera, for the most part, is always behind Kain. I don't see many with him side scrolling it, or an angle that's too jarring from a behind the back control. Perhaps they were trying to make it more traditional to accommodate fan wishes. Again, idle speculation. (Edit: there are a couple that are more in the perhaps Tomb Raider side moving for jumping puzzles, or it coule be still the DMC-like camera.)


5) I don't like the title. The Dark Prophecy sounds very bland, and I think I've had my fill of prophecies since the Scion of Balance.

I don't mind the name. The Dark Chrystal comes to mind, heh. But, yeah, we have enough prophecies. That doesn't mean the name is suggesting new prophecies, though. It most likely would just be that ok, this is how the Scion's destiny plays out and so the name should reflect it. This is Kain's journey through the dark prophecy he's fated to be part of. In that sense, it would have worked fine. Perhaps then, it's too literal, though.

Gribbix:


That's alright, The Hylden. I apologize for my snide replies.

No problem. I deserved worse, lol

Omega
13th Nov 2008, 12:57
<sad face>

I'm rather hopeful that it was cancelled due to Eidos giving Crystal Dynamics Anniversary and Legend, so work was stopped on the LoK game and will resume when Underworld is shipped...

I want to live in my self-deluded world. It's nice, safe, warm, and full of hope of another LoK game.

Linikratyo
13th Nov 2008, 13:28
<sad face>

I'm rather hopeful that it was cancelled due to Eidos giving Crystal Dynamics Anniversary and Legend, so work was stopped on the LoK game and will resume when Underworld is shipped...

I want to live in my self-deluded world. It's nice, safe, warm, and full of hope of another LoK game.

I hate when I give myself to much hope, just like Kain said. I get too enthousiastic with anything about LoK 6... I don't want to be thinking about LoK 6 when it isn't even in production, but I can't stop my thoughts....... :p

Changed my signature BTW

The_Hylden
13th Nov 2008, 16:48
I forgot this last night.

The question Divine Shadow had about Chris. He hasn't been seen 'round these parts in quite a while. That doesn't mean he's not here in the background checking stuff out, possibly, but actually both he and Umah B aren't around posting. I am sure if we need any modding, or something, we can always ask the other mods, but it would be nice to know if she's still here, or not. And for Chris the Butterfly Lord, most certainly it would be nice to have some input from him on all of this.

*shurgs*

RainaAudron
13th Nov 2008, 17:07
Those statues of ancient vampires with the Sarafan symbol behind don´t make any sense to me...:confused: but I suppose the statues are just placeholders for the actual ones just like the unfinished Reaver..

I hope the mods can clear things up if they´re still here...

Linikratyo
13th Nov 2008, 17:38
Those Greenish statues seem to have something to do with Earth.

The lower pictures show a mine... The only mine seen in LoK is the Provincial Mines of Willendorf...... :scratch:

Linikratyo
13th Nov 2008, 18:43
UMAH BLOODOMEN WAS ONLINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

she didn't post anything though.

Follow Raziels advice: "If he won't come to me, then I will go to him"

(he was talking there about Vorador, but you have to imagine that you put the woman called Umah Bloodomen on the spot....... :whistle: )

Omega
13th Nov 2008, 19:15
Umah doesn't work for Eidos or Crystal Dynamics.

The_Hylden
13th Nov 2008, 19:20
I know that, Omega. I just meant she was, and as far as I know still is, the mod around here, yet she's not been around in ages. And besides that, it would be nice to hear from Chris on this, as he's not been seen on here for ages either.

Edit:
Those Greenish statues seem to have something to do with Earth.

Earth?? What do you mean, Linikratyo? While never stated specifically, Nosgoth isn't really assumed to be Earth, or on Earth. I'm confused as to what you mean.

Escaton
13th Nov 2008, 19:33
Hello, another first-time poster here. I've played the games since 2000, but never registered here or on any such forums (though I lurk an awful lot). This thread has finally inspired me enough to do so, even though I'll probably disappear before long :rolleyes:

Anyway, the main point of my post is a thanks to Divine Shadow and the others for finding this amazing stuff, even though it's not the actual game which would be a million times more welcome :) I've looked around and feel that you're getting no real thanks for the find. At least one can now speculate. I guess it's another bitter taste of that terrible illusion...


Earth?? What do you mean, Linikratyo?

I'm not the poster, but Earth-Elemental, I would wager, though I'm unsure.

Linikratyo
13th Nov 2008, 19:56
I will try to make it more clear then:

http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_01.jpg
This picture mentions an earth elemental, but that is not what I meant.

http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_12.jpg
This thing reminds me of the Earth Reaver forge in Defiance... So I thought it might have something to do with the Earth Element... though it also reminds me of the Chronoplast..... it just looks very familuar... :scratch:

http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/KainSceen_07.jpg
The Provincial Mines of Willendorf :rolleyes:

http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_04.jpg
http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_02.jpg
These look a lot like Malek's Bastion and the banner is also familiar to me...... :scratch:

http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_07.jpg
This looks like it could become my favourite LoK level... :cool:


I hope this clears some up!! ;)

Shrykull_the1st
13th Nov 2008, 20:11
Man....I simply can't believe it...

And now that you mentioned that the fortress could be Malek's bastion, I think it makes sense, because those creatures seem like Malek's warriors..the armors assembled together with magic.

RainaAudron
13th Nov 2008, 20:11
I will try to make it more clear then:

http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_01.jpg
This picture mentions an earth elemental, but that is not what I meant.

http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_12.jpg
This thing reminds me of the Earth Reaver forge in Defiance... So I thought it might have something to do with the Earth Element... though it also reminds me of the Chronoplast..... it just looks very familuar... :scratch:


The first one - I understood it as monsters have no detect collision so you just can pass through them
The second pic - I don´t think it has to do anything with ancients, forges or chronoplast, definitely looks like a Hylden face to me(in Malek´s bastion maybe? the room where the armors were brought to life)

Linikratyo
13th Nov 2008, 20:16
The first one - I understood it as monsters have no detect collision so you just can pass through them
The second pic - I don´t think it has to do anything with ancients, forges or chronoplast, definitely looks like a Hylden face to me(in Malek´s bastion maybe? the room where the armors were brought to life)

That actually makes sense.......

The_Hylden
13th Nov 2008, 20:42
Gotchya, Linikratyo. I think it more plausible also, as I've said, that those statues, etc., are of Hylden origin.

The mines thing makes sense. Who knows.

Escaton
13th Nov 2008, 20:58
Perhaps we could get in touch with one of the three artists, if they're still active, and ask them directly whether they recall any design details about these things.

I've had a little experience dealing with developers in the past - most of them have been only too willing to pass on what they remember. Maybe worth a try.

Linikratyo
13th Nov 2008, 21:19
Perhaps we could get in touch with one of the three artists, if they're still active, and ask them directly whether they recall any design details about these things.

I've had a little experience dealing with developers in the past - most of them have been only too willing to pass on what they remember. Maybe worth a try.

sounds like a very good idea!!

There is never said that those statues are from hylden origin... green doesn't mean hylden and they don't look very hylden to me........

blincoln
13th Nov 2008, 23:27
There were also mines (with rail-cart tracks) in Blood Omen 2, so those aren't necessarily the ones in Willendorf. They might not be the ones from Blood Omen 2 either - they could have been a new area.

shlmysfb
14th Nov 2008, 04:47
This is neat stuff. Although, I wonder if "Dark Prophecy" is copyrighted, as it was used for a game in the "Disciples" series by Strategy First. :rolleyes:

Yautjatraker/Albatraous
14th Nov 2008, 06:47
The first one - I understood it as monsters have no detect collision so you just can pass through them


It's more likely a debug message for the programmers to report what is not working. If an object doesn't have collision detection, then the player cannot interact with the object in the usual way. If a wall didn't have collision detection on, then Kain could walk right through (or worse, could fall into the base of the "map").

The_Hylden
14th Nov 2008, 18:01
Although, I wonder if "Dark Prophecy" is copyrighted, as it was used for a game in the "Disciples" series by Strategy First.

No, you can't copyright a title of a movie, game, book, etc. Not by itself. An idea can't be copyrighted, but a body of work can be. First, this is just part of the title, so no, that would never be in question. But, the only way the same exact title being used by two different works would come into question I can think of are these two scenarios. One, both works have the same title and enough of the same content, which can get hard to prove, that they are labeled too similar to be anything but a copyright infringement. This would all come under a ruling from a judge, so it's iffy still, and of course would have to first be deemed worthy enough one party takes it to court in the first place. The second scenario is that two bodies of work with the same exact title in the same field are coming out at nearly the same time. James Cameron's Avatar, for instance. M. Knight Shyamalon is also in production of a movie he wanted to call Avatar, but since both films are coming out so close together, Cameron basically forced the Shyamalon project to change its title. It's now called The Last Airbender... Even though the two films couldn't be any different, the fact both had the same title coming out at nearly the same time meant that most likely the public would have been confused and sales for both would have faltered.

A fellow film student at my school I know actually made a really cool film called The Flyboys on a low budget, but still respectable, something like 2 million. It was a good family adventure-type film with some hard-hitting characters to round it out, and had Steven Baldwin, Tom Sizemore, and other well-known names. However, another movie, Fly Boys, you may or may not remember, came out in 2006 as well. This meant Jason could have either changed the name to get it distributed, or wait it out and let that film go ahead, but keep the name. I think Fly Boys was a big ol' flop, which then also becomes a problem for Jason now. If he releases this movie so soon after that one, people will probably associate it with the failed other film. It's 2008 and finally he could distribute his film, although I am not sure exactly how he went about it, etc. I haven't heard much since he showed it to us early this year.

But, back on point, so those are the only real scenarios where same titles come into the realm of this. And it's still not technically copyright infringement. At that point, it's just if someone complains from one party, or the other, that, to quell the debate, compromises are made. In video games, actually, there has been another scenario: Sierra Entertainment and Monolith Productions split; suddenly Monolith could no longer call F.E.A.R. 2 that, because Sierra owned the rights. That name is so specific, they have full rights to name and not just tot he body of work associated with it. Monolith was coming out with a sequel to the franchise they owned, and at the time they were also coming out with their own sequel they wanted to call F.E.A.R. 2, rights infringement was at play. Sierra has since dropped their plans on the sequel and Monolith has won the rights back. Oh, of course there's also Star Wars for films, another title that's so specific, well, you can't call anything else Star Wars. Most of the time, this never happens, but if someone with enough power makes a case for it, or if that created name is so specific, then a name can be trademarked, which is a bit different than copyrighted.

Complicated, but that's the nebulous world of copyright and trademark for you. Basically, you shouldn't be able to copyright an idea, nor a title alone for a films or game, etc. You can copyright the content of the film, game, etc. Were there to be something so specific to the title, or brand, you can trademark it (which I believe even Legacy of Kain is). And for this, that wouldn't be an issue, nor would the title, as it would have only been part of the game's title. Legacy of Kain being the other part.

Hope that cleared things up:p

shlmysfb
14th Nov 2008, 22:15
Man, you've done your homework on this. It makes sense - in a legal sort of way. :scratch:

Anyway, someone also mentioned this interesting theory:


I was thinking that given the two Kain models, maybe it would have been split between events in two alternating eras (one as the young Kain uncovering the "Dark Prophecy" and the other as him watching it unfold centuries later, I guess) instead of between two characters.

Just to clarify: do you mean that the "first Kain" would be the post-BO2 Kain, and the "second Kain" would be the post-Defiance Kain? Or would the "second Kain" be simply pre-SR1, before he threw Raziel into the abyss? The former makes more sense intuitively to me, but I guess it could be either...

FearGhoul
14th Nov 2008, 23:05
Don't worry, The Hylden, I felt exactly like you, that these were fakes, and for the same reason, because I thought I had seen that first picture of Kain before as a fan made thing, but it looks like this was an actual game being made after all.
The pictures for this look pretty cool. I really like the idea that Kain would have gone back to Malek's Bastion again. This is actually an idea I had before Defiance came out. I was hoping that Raziel would go there after Kain had gone through there and see it in the Spectral Realm, and who knows what would have been there. Obviously this has its differences, but I still really like the idea of going there again.
I like the idea of playing as the younger Kain and then as Elder Kain also, whether switching back and forth or (for me, preferably) first young Kain's part and then Elder Kain's part.
So I'm guessing that there's probably no chance of this ever being made?

Vampmaster
15th Nov 2008, 21:48
It looks like some of those levels might be modfied versions of BO2 or Defiance levels. If there were just mockups, the developers might have reused material from the previous games to get it done quickly. However, the Eye of Raw might also be able to produce such modifications.

Vampmaster
15th Nov 2008, 22:42
Actually, this one: http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_16.jpg looks like it uses the statues from Avernus cathedral near where you place that scripture and the statue in the middle looks like oneof the ones that hold the staffs in Voradors mansion. Or perhaps it's just a retexturing of the the staff puzzle in the mansion. I can't tell if they've reused the models in new levels or simply changed the textures.

Shrykull_the1st
16th Nov 2008, 09:28
Yeah that combines the center from Avernus Cathedral, the statue from Vorador's Mansion, and the other statue as well, I think. Also that back wall I think is from the octogonal room in Defiance (the one with the snake).
Man they already had a big level prepared...the enormous fortress, the caves, mines... To think that there really WAS another LoK game in the works....

The_Hylden
20th Nov 2008, 08:01
Well, I just saw a thread in the Tomb Raider: Underworld forum made by Chris:

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=82905

...asking for user reviews of that game. I am sure his absence from here can certainly be linked to working hard on Underworld. Just thought I'd update that.

Linikratyo
20th Nov 2008, 13:50
Maybe we can all send PMs to him and see if we can draw his attention... :rolleyes:

Binky24
22nd Nov 2008, 17:24
These screenshots are great! (And I'm glad I missed the whole large Page 1 discussion if they are real. :) ) I like the inclusion of Malek's Bastion - I sent Kain there myself in my fanfic, so it's good to see I wasn't the only one thinking along these lines! And - dare I say that the inclusion of Young Kain would answer that thorny question of how Vorador was resurrected and what happened to the Seer and him after Blood Omen 2? (Plus a double ending of Old Kain... doing his thing... and Young Kain resurrecting the Lieutenants would be awesome, I think. Another idea I had had for TLD.)

What I like the most, though, is this room with the Hylden-looking statues with pipes leading out of their foreheads. It reminds me of the Silent Cathedral, slightly, and that place was downright terrifying.

So, yeah, thanks for digging them up, people.

ForbiddenVampire
25th Nov 2008, 22:47
Some of those screenshots reminded me of Blood Omen areas/atmopsheres... especially that ajar wooden door and then the dead/dying slaves on the walls.

mort
27th Nov 2008, 10:34
ga, logged in as soon as i heared!

shame it hasnt been confermed or exposed as a fake by edios :/

as for http://rungy.us/ i was once linked to it ages ago, didnt think much about it as i thought it was a fake due to the steam game and sin, seen as they were rivals, but looking at it again its likly as its sin episodes.

The Hylden - dont worry about a thing, ive been on the other end of your debating before and your one of the most sivile people i know on the internet... who i dont know that well lol, i too would probably have tryed debating this but that would mainly be about the cancelled part...

i think this is something we need to persue till some sort of answer is give :P if only to rest our minds

krycekuva
27th Nov 2008, 10:46
isnt there any chance they will keep it going???...

mort
27th Nov 2008, 12:25
if there is enought interest in a new LOK game then they would be likly to start it up again.

its times like these we need to go all the LOK sub communitys and networks together and let it be known to edios that LOK is a much wanted and antisipated game.

a hand full of people cant do it, but if all of the fans got together something could be done.

fneh
27th Nov 2008, 21:33
I'd be interested to see a transcript of the story that they wanted to use

Linikratyo
27th Nov 2008, 21:48
I'd be interested to see a transcript of the story that they wanted to use

They probably want to keep this secret, so that they could finish the game if they want to. They didn't say the series were dead, so there remains hope... :rolleyes:

Carnivorous Licks
28th Nov 2008, 10:21
I feel a little out of place just shoving my thoughts on the end of this after such amount of discussion but this news really shook me. Admittedly, it made me a bit emotional. :rolleyes: I think thanks are due for the original poster for bringing this to our attention. :)
On a side note... I'm not very fond of the title 'Dark Prophecy'...

It's strange how something like this can effect so many people in such a way!

Linikratyo
28th Nov 2008, 16:35
I feel a little out of place just shoving my thoughts on the end of this after such amount of discussion but this news really shook me. Admittedly, it made me a bit emotional. :rolleyes: I think thanks are due for the original poster for bringing this to our attention. :)
On a side note... I'm not very fond of the title 'Dark Prophecy'...

It's strange how something like this can effect so many people in such a way!

I think The Dark Prophecy is the best LoK title ever!!

Escaton
28th Nov 2008, 16:52
But why? It's such a cliche, and with so many other dark prophecies floating around what makes this one different? A Dark Prophecy and a Blood Omen are also pretty synonymous.

Linikratyo
28th Nov 2008, 17:03
You say so?? Then call 3 other games named The Dark Prophecy!!

mort
28th Nov 2008, 20:12
there, hopfully trying to convince people that they should left eidos know how much people want a new LOK game should get this baby running again :P.

as for the title, i dont mind it. it says exactly what would be done, ok so the dark part may be a little bit iffy and dodgy but still the whole story of the reaver and the scion of balance have all been prophecys by the vampires of old who to humans are seen as evil and dark.

its a fitting title but i must agro that its been used before but then again what's the alternative?

Escaton
28th Nov 2008, 22:20
You say so?? Then call 3 other games named The Dark Prophecy!!

Vampire Hunter - The Dark Prophecy (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLL_en-GBIE302IE302&q=Vampire+Hunter%3a+The+Dark+Prophecy)

Disciples 2 - Dark Prophecy (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLL_en-GBIE302IE302&q=Disciples+2+The+Dark+Prophecy)

Of Light and Darkness - The Prophecy (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLL_en-GBIE302IE302&q=Of+Light+and+Darkness%3a+The+Prophecy) (well, pretty close, right?)

There are also several videogame mods and some books with the same name. It's just that in comparison to "Soul Reaver", "Blood Omen" etc the title seems a little too naive and melodramatic for a LoK game. All just my own opinion of course, so no offence. :D

Then again it was so early in development that I doubt the name was going to be kept for long (considering that Defiance began as Soul Reaver 3, and Soul Reaver's first concepts were named Shifter).

dumah's wraith
29th Nov 2008, 00:44
I don't like Dark Prophecy either.

How about something like
Legacy of Kain: Bitter Illusion

Omega
29th Nov 2008, 12:12
I think game naming should be left to the professionals.

It's like giving fans creative control over something. Best of intentions, and all.

blincoln
29th Nov 2008, 22:57
I think game naming should be left to the professionals.

I generally agree with this, but I also think that the professionals tend to stick "dark" in the titles of too many fictional works. It's one of those words that needs to go on hiatus.

dumah's wraith
30th Nov 2008, 21:25
I think game naming should be left to the professionals.

It's like giving fans creative control over something. Best of intentions, and all.

Fair point. But I still don't like Dark Prophecy as a title

Omega
30th Nov 2008, 21:52
Umm, wasn't it only a "working title" anyway - subject to change as/when/if development on the game progressed?

Vampmaster
30th Nov 2008, 23:03
I always liked "The Scion of Balance" or Blood Omen's planned title (IIRC) "The Pillars of Nosgoth". They're simple titles, but very specific to LOK.

Yautjatraker/Albatraous
1st Dec 2008, 08:25
I always liked "The Scion of Balance" or Blood Omen's planned title (IIRC) "The Pillars of Nosgoth". They're simple titles, but very specific to LOK.

Good titles, but to a standard consumer, mean nothing. Well, they would imply something D&D like, and unless you are H4rdC0r3, customers tend to stay away from especially nerdy things. A more standard title is good, as it will attract attention, and be easy to remember.

Think about the following:

Tales of Arkasaisem: Prophecy of Badghasoues
or
Revelation: The Prophecy

...which is easier to remember? (and to pronounce :D)

Linikratyo
1st Dec 2008, 14:06
Ok, I'm starting a vote about the title....... :D

Raziel's daughter
1st Dec 2008, 19:16
so the 6th game was under development...
....i wonder why they didn't finish it

PS: Thanks for all those pics and info

Vampmaster
1st Dec 2008, 21:44
Good titles, but to a standard consumer, mean nothing. Well, they would imply something D&D like, and unless you are H4rdC0r3, customers tend to stay away from especially nerdy things. A more standard title is good, as it will attract attention, and be easy to remember.

Think about the following:

Tales of Arkasaisem: Prophecy of Badghasoues
or
Revelation: The Prophecy

...which is easier to remember? (and to pronounce :D)

Mine were nowhere near that hard to pronounce and apart from Nosgoth were all real words and whether Nosgoth is a person or a place could be explained within the first half of a line on the back of the box. I was just trying to come up with something that sounded a bit less generic and more intriguing.

The_Hylden
2nd Dec 2008, 04:24
If you think about all of the titles, save for BO2, they have all had a direct meaning to the story they are telling, thus far, with the unifying theme being Legacy fo Kain. People sometimes wish to think of Soul Reaver as near separate from being unified under this banner, but if you look at every title in the series, Legacy of Kain always precedes in the title. So, in each part of the series, starting with Blood Omen, tht title has had to do with what is being told in this part of the Legacy of Kain. In Blood Omen, it was the Omen of destiny, and what would follow as the end of thw world from Kain's decision in this destiny. fast forward to Soul Reaver 1, and of course this is about the story of the Soul Reaver, of Raziel -- one and the same -- and through Soul Reaver 2, the full-circle nature of this story. However, we also have the seeds of Defiance set forth in these two games which foretell the end, letting Raziel loose with Kain on another unforeseen part to this full circle. That is the Defiance in ... Defiance. Now, I don't have a problem with the name, though it's been used in various ways before, if the name was chosen to correlate with the main focus of the game. If it's about the Dark Prophecy and how it is to finally be fulfilled, then fine. I wouldn't mind another title, perhaps, but I think if they were choosing to use this title, they had a specific reason for it. It had to serve the game, not the other way around, which is what all Legacy of Kain games have done (save Blood Omen 2, again).

Then again, it could very well be that the name was subject to change and just simply a placeholder while CD worked through the preliminary stage of finding out just what they really wanted to do with the game. The game, itself, seems to be very much in the preliminary stages, as we've talked about. Which, to some degree, caused such skepticism about it.

Bottom line: if the game were to be a go and looked truly great, they could call it Mud right now, for all I care:p Just put it in my hands, my shriveled, gray, clawed hands...:rolleyes:

Linikratyo
2nd Dec 2008, 13:17
I wouldn't mind another title, perhaps, but I think if they were choosing to use this title, they had a specific reason for it. It had to serve the game, not the other way around, which is what all Legacy of Kain games have done (save Blood Omen 2, again).

In the beginning of BO/BO2 you have a piece of text which has some kind of blood font

Yautjatraker/Albatraous
2nd Dec 2008, 14:50
Mine were nowhere near that hard to pronounce and apart from Nosgoth were all real words and whether Nosgoth is a person or a place could be explained within the first half of a line on the back of the box. I was just trying to come up with something that sounded a bit less generic and more intriguing.

I was exaggerating, as I was try to show how these weird names appear to the standard customer (IE: middle aged mum rather than 21 year old gamer). Any sort of weird name will most likely confuse and put off someone rather than make them want to find out more. I wasn't saying yours were wrong, just trying to prove a point. It wasn't a personal attack, just pointing out how marketing works. They always want a catchy title that people can remember, and if possible, see in places where they haven't had to place.

By this I mean "Blood Omen". The word blood is quite common, as is omen. If you had heard of a game called "Blood Omen" then you saw an advert for "The Omen", chances are you will now be thinking of the game, as it is similar and simple to remember, whereas "Tales of Arkasaisem: Prophecy of Badghasoues" you aren't really going to remember unless you are extremely interested.

Anyway, that is rather off topic now I feel, so lets get back to discussing the cancelled game rather than marketing strategies. :D

Escaton
2nd Dec 2008, 16:30
So, in each part of the series, starting with Blood Omen, tht title has had to do with what is being told in this part of the Legacy of Kain. In Blood Omen, it was the Omen of destiny, and what would follow as the end of thw world from Kain's decision in this destiny.

Personally I always assumed that the Blood Omens themselves were just the prophecies shown at the start of both games, i.e. "There is a magical operation of maximum importance..." and "Vampires roam the land again and the legacy of Kain continues..." et cetera.

The first one is even written in what looks like blood :D

Linikratyo
9th Dec 2008, 15:01
Can the cancelling of The Dark Prophecy have something to do with the departure of Amy Hennig??? :scratch:

Blackfox Kitsune
9th Dec 2008, 22:22
Now i'm unsure if LoK The Dark Prophecy is just another name for Definance OR Did Eidos get Weedy and backed out of one of thier BEST ever games!!!!!
Of all the Eidos and Crystal Dymanic co-made games LoK has been the ONLY game that ever kept me thinking and on the edge, i wanted to know what happend, i LOVE the twisted Storyline, and i love the fact that your anti-hero happens to be the REAL hero, HOW the hell can people leave a story unfinished! with fans waiting for the FINAL part of the story! Kain has yet still to undo the Damage the Elder created, he is yet to reuninte the Hylden and vampires (Apostles like Janos) and make the paradox that stops the war from ever happening, putting nosgoth back into balance... :mad2: it's like reading a Story book and Forgetting the ENDING!!!!!

Edit: If it was Canned was it down to the two things? Tony Jays death (the Elder god) and the departure of Amy Hennig?

Balance_Reaver
10th Dec 2008, 03:58
make the paradox that stops the war from ever happening, putting nosgoth back into balance...
The paradox won't return balance to the Nosgoth, it will destroy it. Because if Kain'll do it, he will be expelled from history thus leaving Nosgoth without any hope to restoration.

Tha Khan
12th Dec 2008, 03:41
Well this just sucks totally. I hope they revisit it and I hope that ain getting an action figure last year wasa sign that its getting some thought.

Hylden glad here your doing alright man.

Yautjatraker/Albatraous
15th Dec 2008, 08:23
The paradox won't return balance to the Nosgoth, it will destroy it. Because if Kain'll do it, he will be expelled from history thus leaving Nosgoth without any hope to restoration.

What would happen if Kain used his Mind Control powers to control a human and got them to do it (lets just imagine the action being a big red button to make it easier shall we? ;))

Would Kain be removed or the human? :D

Guardian OF The Reaver
15th Dec 2008, 17:03
What would happen if Kain used his Mind Control powers to control a human and got them to do it (lets just imagine the action being a big red button to make it easier shall we? ;))

Would Kain be removed or the human? :D


LOL I like it, its totally sneaky an genius.

:lol:

mega man
15th Dec 2008, 18:15
To Divine Shadow:

I'm not suggesting anything. I am TELLING you that these screen shots are OBVIOUS fakes. I never implied YOU, nor anyone else you are affiliated with made them, just that I've personally seen then for ages back on the NR forums -- the larger screens -- while the smaller ones are just Kain from Defiance mixed into warped Defiance areas, and other backgrounds. These. Are. Fakes.

You will get no apology. Not for wasting our time. If you found these on those sites and believed them, I am sorry that you've believed in the lie only, as it's not you're fault. If you are simply trying to pander the sites and these screens off to start something here, then I AM blaming you and your coincidental follower here entirely.

Yes.

And Ritual Entertainment means nothing. You know why? They've never EVER been affiliated with Eidos Interactive. Ever.

I'm no longer arguing this point. No-one will believe this crap on here, so if this is some lame attempt, as it seems to be, at causing a stir on here. It's finito.

seems like hylden vs shadow Kain
while i put no money on any of them

mega man
15th Dec 2008, 18:33
ok for the story next to come (if it will) i think we shall see things quite diffrently perhaps from hylden side they will be hero of the game and vampires will be the antagonist

aslo there are questions unanswered like
what is nosgoth
who are human and vampires and hylden and the big octopus..

see things are not clear that much this time... for this i assume next is to come.
ii just hope it , which might just be an ILLUSION

Pilotslover
15th Dec 2008, 20:48
Cancelled due to lack of interest? But ... But ... we are interested *sobs in the corner*

PL

Mr Croft
15th Dec 2008, 22:22
That sucks for LoK fans :(

Vampmaster
15th Dec 2008, 22:25
It was probably postponed so CD could work on the tomb raider games. IIRC, TRL and TRA were released pretty close together. If CD had two teams like when they did SR2 and BO2, then they might have needed everyone working on tomb raider to get the time down to a year each, when SR2 took about 2 years. That's just an estimate on the timing, but I reckon they've just been too busy. I think they should use the next Kain game to take a break from the TR series, that way they don't get bored and both series can benefit.

RainaAudron
15th Dec 2008, 23:04
It was probably postponed so CD could work on the tomb raider games. IIRC, TRL and TRA were released pretty close together. If CD had two teams like when they did SR2 and BO2, then they might have needed everyone working on tomb raider to get the time down to a year each, when SR2 took about 2 years. That's just an estimate on the timing, but I reckon they've just been too busy. I think they should use the next Kain game to take a break from the TR series, that way they don't get bored and both series can benefit.

If that´s the case, then it is very sad...:( no LOK because of Lara..yeah, I hope they finally switch to LOK, it´s about time..

Divine Shadow
16th Dec 2008, 01:59
Right, the silence has gone on too long.

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo268/mappster102/chriscrysal.jpg

I've set the Chris-signal. Hopefully, Chris@Crystal can elaborate on this secret game.

Rivenmjk
16th Dec 2008, 03:02
:lol: LOL:lmao: the kain signal should be more like it!!!

Divine Shadow
16th Dec 2008, 03:30
:lol: LOL:lmao: the kain signal should be more like it!!!

Very well!

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo268/mappster102/kainsignal.jpg

The_Hylden
16th Dec 2008, 08:07
Ha! Even more appropriate, since Eidos is also working to make what looks to be a fantastic Batman game:thumbsup: No, CD isn't involved, just sayin'...

Yeah, since Chris posted in the Underworld forums, he's not been seen. I would love if they took their preliminary concept and upgraded it to their new beautious next gen engine and just went with it:) Underworld looks fantastic, mostly.

Rivenmjk
16th Dec 2008, 20:16
Very well!

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo268/mappster102/kainsignal.jpg

one word....

GENIUS!!!

mort
18th Dec 2008, 12:19
*bown down* you are now a legend in my eyes rofl

of i would love that as an easter egg.

hell id buy the game just for that lol

TheWatcher
19th Dec 2008, 01:42
Interesting. This is the first I've seen of this. It's good to know they were at least planning LoK6. What probably derailed it was a combination of Defiance's poor sales and Eidos changing ownership.

It looks as if they were going for complete closure with this game. Using 'younger' Kain to explain Vorador's resurrection, older Kain to work out the scion of balance/restoration of Nosgoth issues, and the both of them to return Kain and the vampires to power. It would have been sooo interesting to see them confront one another - a secret elder Kain kept to himself all along and one of the reasons he threw Raziel into the abyss.


Can the cancelling of The Dark Prophecy have something to do with the departure of Amy Hennig??? :scratch:I don't think so. IIRC, Amy announced Defiance would be her last LoK game before it was released, so it wouldn't have come as a suprise to anyone when she did finally leave.

Linikratyo
19th Dec 2008, 08:27
Interesting. This is the first I've seen of this. It's good to know they were at least planning LoK6. What probably derailed it was a combination of Defiance's poor sales and Eidos changing ownership.

It looks as if they were going for complete closure with this game. Using 'younger' Kain to explain Vorador's resurrection, older Kain to work out the scion of balance/restoration of Nosgoth issues, and the both of them to return Kain and the vampires to power. It would have been sooo interesting to see them confront one another - a secret elder Kain kept to himself all along and one of the reasons he threw Raziel into the abyss.

I don't think so. IIRC, Amy announced Defiance would be her last LoK game before it was released, so it wouldn't have come as a suprise to anyone when she did finally leave.

Ok, Raziel gone = Amy Hennig gone :D

TheWatcher
19th Dec 2008, 22:56
Well, something else I thought of last night. As most of us probably know, when Amy left the writing duties were passed on to staffers Richard Lemarchand, Kyle Mannerberg and Jen (last name's escaping me atm). Not too long after Defiance's release, it was announced that one of those three then left as well, the timing of which would have coincided pretty closely with this project's cancellation.

I apologize, I can't remember which one left (first). I'm drawing blanks left and right here. But, just another little tidbit to add to the validity of this whole thing.

agharamz
20th Dec 2008, 06:40
just stumbled upon some screenshots of the sequel

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=341796

also i was hoping if any of you where interested in signing a petition against the cancellation of lok the dark prophecy maybe this will make the developers change their mind rather than release another crappy lara croft game.

you can sign it here:
http://www.petitiononline.com/LOK10010/petition.html

keep the lok series alive it's up to us the fans

YOU HAVE A VOICE IT'S TIME TO USE IT:thumb:

Guardian OF The Reaver
20th Dec 2008, 10:38
happy happy joy jy :P

Xule
30th Dec 2008, 20:31
i can't help but wonder what happened. i mean i know jay died [RIP] and all. but surely they could have found a replacement

Tenaya
5th Jan 2009, 19:30
Though late, I also thought this topic was worth creating my first post here, (and if you bear with me, I promise it won’t all be pessimistic.)

My gut reaction to the report of this news was admittedly aversive, but only because of the character model mock-up, and any intention it implies to continue the characterization of Kain featured in BO2. I can provide an actual list of things that BO2 specifically got wrong about Kain’s character as it was written in the rest of the series, but suffice to say that there is hardly anything about Kain’s character that BO2 actually got right, and I say this purely in the interest of constructive criticism. Putting BO2 “Kain” on steroids and giving him a wig really doesn’t solve the problem.
In my opinion, BO2 exemplified how a game could do more harm than good to an existing series. Despite its unpopularity, it has left some gaping plot holes and inconsistencies that any writers who take up the series for a future game will have to decide how to address. It would be nice to have closure on some of them, (BO2 actually came up with some interesting plot elements that simply weren’t well realized in that game) but there are others which I consider to be irredeemable--such as the depiction of Kain as a character who would murder a woman for exercising her common sense, rather than submissively reciprocating his purely superficial infatuation with her, even though Kain has never said or done anything remotely chauvinistic in any other LoK game. For this reason and a multitude of others, I don’t see how any good can come from featuring BO2 “Kain” in a future game, unless he is revealed in a plot twist to be a completely separate character from the Kain in the rest of the series--which actually may not be such a bad idea.
Denis Dyack once explained it best when he said:
“When we create stories we try to model some classical models that were laid out by Shakespeare. You see, when he wrote a play he targeted his story at several levels. For the drunken commoners in the front rows he would insert dirty jokes to keep them entertained but for the aristocracy in the balconies he would write very cerebral metaphors. For Silicon Knights the gore is our dirty jokes, but for those who want more there is a real story behind Kain. A story that you can sink you teeth into and one that you can learn something from. We tried to address morals, evil and good, propaganda and fate in ways that have never been explored in a computer game before.”
I’m sure that even “aristocracy” enjoys the occasional “dirty joke”. The problem with BO2 is that it depended entirely on “dirty jokes”. It blended smut with the gore for an additional flavor of dirt, but offered little to nothing cerebral. Instead, the darkness in the original Blood Omen’s storyline that was essential to making the game empathetic, and the moral complexity that was necessary to make the audience think, was misinterpreted by the creators of BO2 as a the fans’ desire to play an evil character. They completely missed the point! And it doesn’t need to happen again.
My opinion is that story elements should only be taken from BO2 if those elements will enhance the story of a future game, not simply to cover for a game that already went down poorly. For example, I wouldn’t mind seeing the long awaited explanation for why Vorador is alive in BO2, *if* that explanation allows this great character to ‘live on’ and contribute to the plot of a future game, not merely to immediately kill him off again once BO2 is appeased, thereby only cheapening his profound death scene at the end of Blood Omen. However, even if Kain’s character were phenomenally better written in a next LoK game than it was in BO2, BO2 “Kain” still *looks* like a moronic buffoon who failed in his attempt to emulate a pretentious anime character, whereas part of Blood Omen’s appeal was its realism. Blood Omen Kain looked like a real person that I could take seriously and identify with as the trials of his story unfolded.
Then again, that character model only appeared once on a separate site from the screenshots which all feature Defiance Kain. Like many LoK fans, I’ve been working on a growing list of things I’d like to see in a next game, and among the items on it, I’d hoped they would stick with the character model for Kain from Defiance, since I thought it looked great, had a lot of potential for being animated expressively, and I could see some of Blood Omen Kain in it, (which I’m sure was aided by how well his character for Defiance was *written*.) I also concur that I have more interest in seeing what happens after the point in time at which Defiance leaves off than I do in returning the perspective to an earlier point in the story. Despite the fact that the last spoken word in Defiance is “hope”, the situation it leaves us with is actually pretty grim, and some vital questions are yet unanswered. The Balance Guardian is healed of corruption, but the Pillars are in smoldering ruins, and we don’t know what this will mean for the life force of Nosgoth which they tapped into. We don’t know what happens to Janos after Hash’ak’gik takes off with him (or after he’s pushed through the “Hylden Gate”, if you prefer). We don’t know if Vorador will somehow survive his execution, what will become of the vampires in Kain’s empire, how Kain is still alive without a heart, or what became of Raziel’s future soul that was attached to his arm as a wraith-blade when humanoid wraith Raziel was imprisoned within the material Reaver.
Another item on my list of things I’d like to see in a next LoK game is more insight into the Hylden. They’ve become a crucial part of the story, as without them, there would be no Pillars or Nosgothian vampires, and yet we still know so little about them apart from the way their Ancient enemies depicted them in their murals, which for all we know may be no more accurate than the depictions of Vorador and Janos at the Sarafan Stronghold. We now know that it was the Ancients who attacked the Hylden, and that they did it while in the service of a malicious, deceptive being (the Elder). I would specifically like to see more of the Hylden side of the story. Kain has already rejected the false god that led his predecessors, as a Guardian and as a vampire, to their destruction. He’s not a fool, and he’s already demonstrated the vast extent of his patience by withstanding Raziel’s antagonism. With the Elder still at large, still fully capably of recruiting worshippers, Kain should be able to recognize the advantage of an alliance with the Hylden. If he fails, there’s no reason to think another vampire-Hylden war will end any better for either race than the last one did. Balance will never be brought to Nosgoth under those conditions. From a writing standpoint alone, the goal of peace despite millennia of bitter conflict and painful loss, is much more “cerebral” than the goal of perpetuating racism and war. The thought of revisiting such storyline concepts that are familiar from the original Blood Omen as Malek’s bastion in modern graphics, and having them tied in with newer concepts like the Hylden is very exciting to me! That is the kind of continuity the series needs to maintain its loyal fan base while proceeding into new and unexplored territory! That was one of SR2’s definite virtues!
In short, I would love another LoK game, but *only* if it can be done well, with thorough comprehension and appreciation of the elaborately complex established mythos. I’m willing to wait as long as necessary. I’m only wary of losing any more great talents like Tony Jay and Kyle Mannerburg along the way…not to mention Amy Hennig, Richard Lemarchand, and Jennifer Fernández, whose lives took them in other directions after so many years. However, much of what is shown here in the smaller screenshots holds promise, and not so much has been revealed that the plot they had in mind would be spoiled if they decided to pick it back up again, and the right people could be found to pull it off. I do not expect that to be any small feat, but if it can be achieved, it would make a small subculture of fans from across the globe very, very happy.

Linikratyo
5th Jan 2009, 19:51
Though late, I also thought this topic was worth creating my first post here, (and if you bear with me, I promise it won’t all be pessimistic.)

My gut reaction to the report of this news was admittedly aversive, but only because of the character model mock-up, and any intention it implies to continue the characterization of Kain featured in BO2. I can provide an actual list of things that BO2 specifically got wrong about Kain’s character as it was written in the rest of the series, but suffice to say that there is hardly anything about Kain’s character that BO2 actually got right, and I say this purely in the interest of constructive criticism. Putting BO2 “Kain” on steroids and giving him a wig really doesn’t solve the problem.
In my opinion, BO2 exemplified how a game could do more harm than good to an existing series. Despite its unpopularity, it has left some gaping plot holes and inconsistencies that any writers who take up the series for a future game will have to decide how to address. It would be nice to have closure on some of them, (BO2 actually came up with some interesting plot elements that simply weren’t well realized in that game) but there are others which I consider to be irredeemable--such as the depiction of Kain as a character who would murder a woman for exercising her common sense, rather than submissively reciprocating his purely superficial infatuation with her, even though Kain has never said or done anything remotely chauvinistic in any other LoK game. For this reason and a multitude of others, I don’t see how any good can come from featuring BO2 “Kain” in a future game, unless he is revealed in a plot twist to be a completely separate character from the Kain in the rest of the series--which actually may not be such a bad idea.
Denis Dyack once explained it best when he said:
“When we create stories we try to model some classical models that were laid out by Shakespeare. You see, when he wrote a play he targeted his story at several levels. For the drunken commoners in the front rows he would insert dirty jokes to keep them entertained but for the aristocracy in the balconies he would write very cerebral metaphors. For Silicon Knights the gore is our dirty jokes, but for those who want more there is a real story behind Kain. A story that you can sink you teeth into and one that you can learn something from. We tried to address morals, evil and good, propaganda and fate in ways that have never been explored in a computer game before.”
I’m sure that even “aristocracy” enjoys the occasional “dirty joke”. The problem with BO2 is that it depended entirely on “dirty jokes”. It blended smut with the gore for an additional flavor of dirt, but offered little to nothing cerebral. Instead, the darkness in the original Blood Omen’s storyline that was essential to making the game empathetic, and the moral complexity that was necessary to make the audience think, was misinterpreted by the creators of BO2 as a the fans’ desire to play an evil character. They completely missed the point! And it doesn’t need to happen again.
My opinion is that story elements should only be taken from BO2 if those elements will enhance the story of a future game, not simply to cover for a game that already went down poorly. For example, I wouldn’t mind seeing the long awaited explanation for why Vorador is alive in BO2, *if* that explanation allows this great character to ‘live on’ and contribute to the plot of a future game, not merely to immediately kill him off again once BO2 is appeased, thereby only cheapening his profound death scene at the end of Blood Omen. However, even if Kain’s character were phenomenally better written in a next LoK game than it was in BO2, BO2 “Kain” still *looks* like a moronic buffoon who failed in his attempt to emulate a pretentious anime character, whereas part of Blood Omen’s appeal was its realism. Blood Omen Kain looked like a real person that I could take seriously and identify with as the trials of his story unfolded.
Then again, that character model only appeared once on a separate site from the screenshots which all feature Defiance Kain. Like many LoK fans, I’ve been working on a growing list of things I’d like to see in a next game, and among the items on it, I’d hoped they would stick with the character model for Kain from Defiance, since I thought it looked great, had a lot of potential for being animated expressively, and I could see some of Blood Omen Kain in it, (which I’m sure was aided by how well his character for Defiance was *written*.) I also concur that I have more interest in seeing what happens after the point in time at which Defiance leaves off than I do in returning the perspective to an earlier point in the story. Despite the fact that the last spoken word in Defiance is “hope”, the situation it leaves us with is actually pretty grim, and some vital questions are yet unanswered. The Balance Guardian is healed of corruption, but the Pillars are in smoldering ruins, and we don’t know what this will mean for the life force of Nosgoth which they tapped into. We don’t know what happens to Janos after Hash’ak’gik takes off with him (or after he’s pushed through the “Hylden Gate”, if you prefer). We don’t know if Vorador will somehow survive his execution, what will become of the vampires in Kain’s empire, how Kain is still alive without a heart, or what became of Raziel’s future soul that was attached to his arm as a wraith-blade when humanoid wraith Raziel was imprisoned within the material Reaver.
Another item on my list of things I’d like to see in a next LoK game is more insight into the Hylden. They’ve become a crucial part of the story, as without them, there would be no Pillars or Nosgothian vampires, and yet we still know so little about them apart from the way their Ancient enemies depicted them in their murals, which for all we know may be no more accurate than the depictions of Vorador and Janos at the Sarafan Stronghold. We now know that it was the Ancients who attacked the Hylden, and that they did it while in the service of a malicious, deceptive being (the Elder). I would specifically like to see more of the Hylden side of the story. Kain has already rejected the false god that led his predecessors, as a Guardian and as a vampire, to their destruction. He’s not a fool, and he’s already demonstrated the vast extent of his patience by withstanding Raziel’s antagonism. With the Elder still at large, still fully capably of recruiting worshippers, Kain should be able to recognize the advantage of an alliance with the Hylden. If he fails, there’s no reason to think another vampire-Hylden war will end any better for either race than the last one did. Balance will never be brought to Nosgoth under those conditions. From a writing standpoint alone, the goal of peace despite millennia of bitter conflict and painful loss, is much more “cerebral” than the goal of perpetuating racism and war. The thought of revisiting such storyline concepts that are familiar from the original Blood Omen as Malek’s bastion in modern graphics, and having them tied in with newer concepts like the Hylden is very exciting to me! That is the kind of continuity the series needs to maintain its loyal fan base while proceeding into new and unexplored territory! That was one of SR2’s definite virtues!
In short, I would love another LoK game, but *only* if it can be done well, with thorough comprehension and appreciation of the elaborately complex established mythos. I’m willing to wait as long as necessary. I’m only wary of losing any more great talents like Tony Jay and Kyle Mannerburg along the way…not to mention Amy Hennig, Richard Lemarchand, and Jennifer Fernández, whose lives took them in other directions after so many years. However, much of what is shown here in the smaller screenshots holds promise, and not so much has been revealed that the plot they had in mind would be spoiled if they decided to pick it back up again, and the right people could be found to pull it off. I do not expect that to be any small feat, but if it can be achieved, it would make a small subculture of fans from across the globe very, very happy.

I do think that Kain was at his best in BO and if they made it in new graphics AND WITH EVERYTHING ELSE THE SAME that it would be the best of the series... :thumb:

VLordKainV
9th Apr 2009, 09:40
I have been a LoK fan since I first picked up my copy of the original B.O. way back when it first came out, and own all the games in the series. Legacy of Kain was one of the first titles to ever have such an immense, and complex storyline for a game not being a standard RPG, and to have a single storyline truly continue across multiple titles in that series (unlike say Final Fantasy which with rare exception never has had any "true" sequels). Now others have followed in it's wake (Silent Hill comes to mind) but it was one of the first. Now over the years I have come across many fans of the game, and for the most part they tend to be more thoughtful and definitely more cerebral than most of the gaming community, and have interacted with many of you, (Blincoln most notably through your website which I recommend most highly), and found that we are some of the most die hard fans out there. That being said I know you all hope as I do that SOMEONE will SOMEDAY release at least a final game to tie things up in this series and not just let it die where it left off. I've noticed a bit of discussion here on the title of the game. IMHO I believe that if it is a final game for the series it could be called something along the lines of "Legacy of Kain: Requiem". The reason why I believe this is simple but has multiple parts. The first part would simply be that this would be the last game in the series as the title would suggest. Second that Kain would somehow "die" by the end of it and that his "death" would somehow coincide with the destruction of the Elder God and the final resolution of the Hylden/Vampire conflict, whether peace between or annihilation of one or both parties. This would also tie in to the Balance prophecy from the original game. Now I put the words die and death in quotes because it wouldn't necessarily mean Kain's actual physical destruction, (although it could very well mean that) but that it could mean a number of "deaths", such as for instance, he's restored to mortality, thus allowing the vampiric "Kain" to die, or that he becomes truly immortal and leaves the physical plane, or something of that nature. And then of course there's the other characters and what final fate awaits them and the fate of all of Nosgoth, including the humans which are caught in the middle of this whole epic conflict. And THAT is only if a future game would be the last in the series. I just strongly feel that there needs to be at least one more game in this series if for no other reason than to bring closure to those of us who followed it since its first title, it's akin to having girlfriend/boyfriend leave you without explaining why or even saying goodbye, it leaves a void that longs to be filled. So please Eidos/Crystal Dynamics, SOMEBODY finish this series!

Well now that i've done ranting I'm off to Second Life...lol See ya

VipericVampire
13th Apr 2009, 13:55
I've noticed something, Kain moves in a snowy area. In BO, don't you loose blood when exposed to snow? o_o Even if he is a strong vampire at this time, that doesn't make him invulnerable to water/snow...

The_Hylden
13th Apr 2009, 15:58
In BO1, Kain drank from various Blood Fountains, each of which increased his strength/gave him immunities. The last one he drank from enhanced him so snow no longer burnt him.

Or, you can just say it's been thousands of years and he's that much stronger. We're only talking little flakes of snow, here. With vampiric healing, even if it did burn in any way, his skin would heal almost instantly. Not to mention his skin right now looks more like armor than skin anyway.

mega man
13th Apr 2009, 17:45
I have been a LoK fan since I first picked up my copy of the original B.O. way back when it first came out, and own all the games in the series. Legacy of Kain was one of the first titles to ever have such an immense, and complex storyline for a game not being a standard RPG, and to have a single storyline truly continue across multiple titles in that series (unlike say Final Fantasy which with rare exception never has had any "true" sequels). Now others have followed in it's wake (Silent Hill comes to mind) but it was one of the first. Now over the years I have come across many fans of the game, and for the most part they tend to be more thoughtful and definitely more cerebral than most of the gaming community, and have interacted with many of you, (Blincoln most notably through your website which I recommend most highly), and found that we are some of the most die hard fans out there. That being said I know you all hope as I do that SOMEONE will SOMEDAY release at least a final game to tie things up in this series and not just let it die where it left off. I've noticed a bit of discussion here on the title of the game. IMHO I believe that if it is a final game for the series it could be called something along the lines of "Legacy of Kain: Requiem". The reason why I believe this is simple but has multiple parts. The first part would simply be that this would be the last game in the series as the title would suggest. Second that Kain would somehow "die" by the end of it and that his "death" would somehow coincide with the destruction of the Elder God and the final resolution of the Hylden/Vampire conflict, whether peace between or annihilation of one or both parties. This would also tie in to the Balance prophecy from the original game. Now I put the words die and death in quotes because it wouldn't necessarily mean Kain's actual physical destruction, (although it could very well mean that) but that it could mean a number of "deaths", such as for instance, he's restored to mortality, thus allowing the vampiric "Kain" to die, or that he becomes truly immortal and leaves the physical plane, or something of that nature. And then of course there's the other characters and what final fate awaits them and the fate of all of Nosgoth, including the humans which are caught in the middle of this whole epic conflict. And THAT is only if a future game would be the last in the series. I just strongly feel that there needs to be at least one more game in this series if for no other reason than to bring closure to those of us who followed it since its first title, it's akin to having girlfriend/boyfriend leave you without explaining why or even saying goodbye, it leaves a void that longs to be filled. So please Eidos/Crystal Dynamics, SOMEBODY finish this series!

Well now that i've done ranting I'm off to Second Life...lol See ya

first Welcome
then well i have your point in my mind too i think there should be more of kain

you said he might become immortal well i think this way he becomes something like E.G

but think of it now would not you want to see the "other side" of the coin . before reaching we need to have all knowledge from both sides only then we can decide who was "actually" wrong .... i mean to suggest here we should see the story from hylden point of view or from humen perspective

VLordKainV
13th Apr 2009, 19:25
first Welcome
then well i have your point in my mind too i think there should be more of kain

you said he might become immortal well i think this way he becomes something like E.G

but think of it now would not you want to see the "other side" of the coin . before reaching we need to have all knowledge from both sides only then we can decide who was "actually" wrong .... i mean to suggest here we should see the story from hylden point of view or from humen perspective

Well that would depend....if he stayed in the physical plane or remained connected to it (like the Elder God) then yes I see your point, however, if he were to truly transcend and leave the plane of Nosgoth completely behind then this wouldn't be a problem. The same if he were to regain his mortality or if he actually died. There is also the question of what motivates him, which we do have conflicting examples of, sometimes he's the cold calculating self-serving bastard we all know and love, and then at other times he has pangs of conscience and exhibits behavior of truly caring for others. These conflicts are what make Kain such a dynamic and interesting character, and not just the lame two dimensional characters that we see alot in video games. Of course I agree with you about seeing the other side which is what was meant by my statements of "final fates". But this is Kain's story after all (yes I know...I can hear the Raziel fans beginning to growl but hold off I am a fan of Raziel too) and so most of the story should come from his point of view. The thing is that the stories of the other forces in play could be made into stand alone games of their own, especially the human side of this conflict.
Anyway that's all I have to say for now....I'd be glad to hear anymore thoughts and discuss them so till then...L8r

VipericVampire
14th Apr 2009, 20:28
Not to mention his skin right now looks more like armor than skin anyway.

LOL :lol:

Soul Wraith
23rd Apr 2009, 02:59
Ive swooped over this thread a couple of times yet it took me ages to actually register and write something down. Since the thread itself is old and its main point, at least judging what was posted in the last two pages, is to make an overview of what the fans or the rational logic would make out of the next (if there ever is) LoK game (there should be one, the series are far from done).

Someone mentioned the spinning coin. In fact, its more than a coin, since when it spins you get a sphere. For some reason, I think that's what Kain is thinking of since the whole duel (if we can have it that way) has more sides than just two. You have vampires and humans, Hyldens over here and Seraphan over there, plus the individual pursuits of destiny. The outcome, or at least as Kain would want it to be, is that the coin will spin for eternity since that's the only way Kain is remaining in breathing state. His personal coin would be lose/lose condition for him, on one hand he has a given word to sacrifice for the preservation of the Pillars, on the other hand, he blows away the first hand and gets a empire that ruins and decays thus extincting the vampires. Remaining in the middle is more or less crucial for him.

The End of LoK: Defiance was actually reaching full circle. The present, ages and wise Kain became purified Scion of Balance while we have Pillars laying in ruins and younger Kain that made a "fatal" choice, both in same place, same time. But most important, we have Hyldens on the lose. The story would be following the aged Kain since it wouldn't be wise or of any use to make choices already made and remade/repaired with younger Kain. The aged Kain would have a couple of things on his hands, one of which would be settings things in the proper place of history and time continuum, than preventing younger Kain from bringing ruin upon all of Nosgoth and extincting the vampires (one way or an other) and keeping the Hyldens at bay and preventing them to rise in power (even though that would make distortion in the time continuum again).

I don't know how good or bad this vision of mine about the story sounds to the rest of the LoK community but for me kinda sounds logical. There might be even confrontation between both Kains and aged Kain and the Serephan Lord. Kain can finally set things right (although that would make perversion of the very past or upcoming future).

Speaking of the very coin and the sides again... For the overall series it would be good to go deeper and open the horizons for the rest of the sides in the conflict with all of theirs personal games and agendas but by having them in separate sequels and games. Personally, I would never play with Hyldens and I would not like to have them as protagonists in any future game but I would like to see them highlighter with more of their secrets uncovered. However, I would like the have the humans and the Seraphans as protagonists just to see their side of the coin directly since they have been pretty much vital part of the whole series. I would like for sure to have LoK game (or at least one going as a linked spin-off) with a Seraphan soldier or general as protagonist just to be able to catch the overall feeling the human factor had in the whole warfare. This could help in the same time to revive the series a bit since it will attract more player to the series without a need to go over the previous games all at once yet keep the spirit of LoK (works both for the LoK community and Eidos)

Even on this field more games would be needed since you can't cover all the time periods in one game. I would personally go for two or three periods out of which I would choose the one in which the humanity fails, Kain refuses to sacrifice, he builds the empire and turns the humans into sheep, Vorador's decimation of the circle, Kain's rising of his lutanents... and all this seen trough the eyes of a Seraphsn soldier. Other period would be after Mobious takes his sit and leads the remaining Seraphan and vampire hunters against the vampires. The one last choice would be the Seraphan in BO2 but for some reason I'm trying to stay away from that period of time since even tho it explains a pretty neat part of the history its a refilling, one way or an other.

Pick whatever you will, good or bad, more or less, it will server a good chunk of Nosgothian history in our plates. Too bad we are not (it would be weird to) gonna be seeing Raziel in any future sequel, at least not in any material form, but he will be present all the time as he is what Kain wields on the path to his destiny. What his arrogance and sadistic mind ruined in his youth, opened the gates to his fulfillment. After all, I thing that Raziel played enough of his part.

With all this said and done, we can only debate, resolve and in the end, dream to get an other LoK game in the series. I'm gonna pick the edge, the very edge of the spinning coin, since that's the only way the series are gonna be preserved.

darkwraith007
5th May 2009, 05:44
Before I begin, this username is one I chose back in the heyday of Diablo 1 on Battle.net, and its just a random name I came up with in my early days of multiplayer gaming and PC gaming in general (bought Diablo 1 brand new for $2 from Best Buy at the time).

That being said, just wanted to point out a quick thing many people here may not have noticed or thought about too much.

I looked at this screenshot:
http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/LegacyofKain_17.jpg

And it very suddenly popped out at me what this really looked vaguely like this:
http://www.thelostworlds.net/SR1/The_Final_Battle_with_Kain.html

Granted its only somewhat similar but at least that's what this looked like to me.
I guess I'm still wishing for the 'original' storyline where Raziel took Kain out. Somewhat simple, clean cut, and it would've actually provided a conclusion rather then stringing us along for 5 games across at least 3 generational platforms.

Thoughts, perhaps? Could this 'Dark Prophecy' possibly have been a modification of the original storyline for SR1? Is it possible that's how this all could end? (If only to have some type of conclusion).

Valaquen_
5th May 2009, 18:38
LoK was compromised by B02, like Tenaya said in her post, it done more harm than good. Defiance had to bend over backwards to allow BO2 to take place, I don't see where Dark Prophecy could have went. Restoration of the future Nosgoth? The end of EG?
I'm sure that we will see another LoK game again.

Valaquen_
3rd Aug 2009, 14:47
To follow up that old post, you don't start developing a game, its areas etc, without a script, right? Presumably it was written before Amy and Richards leaving for Naughty Dog... our answers are out ther...

FearGhoul
6th Aug 2009, 03:16
In the script, a new pillar is revealed: the Mary Sue Pillar. :D

diuqSehT
6th Aug 2009, 10:15
Someone mentioned the spinning coin. In fact, its more than a coin, since when it spins you get a sphere. ....The outcome, or at least as Kain would want it to be, is that the coin will spin for eternity since that's the only way Kain is remaining in breathing state.

The End of LoK: Defiance was actually reaching full circle. The present, ages and wise Kain became purified Scion of Balance while we have Pillars laying in ruins and younger Kain that made a "fatal" choice, both in same place, same time. But most important, we have Hyldens on the loose.


That's a very sensual notion, that the spinning of the coin carves out a sphere of living space for Kain, and he must keep it spinning forever or be snuffed out by fate. Cool. I don't think that's the case now. Now he can still hope for a resolution and live through it. (Because I think Nupraptor's madness is finally cured from Kain in Defiance so he won't infect the next group of guardians, thus removing the need to sacrifice himself.) But your concept could be used in the next game as a great trap for Elder to spring on Kain. Make it so Kain can't play offense anymore cuz he has to focus full time on keeping the coin spinning, like those plate spinners at the circus.

As for the idea that Defiance brought things full circle so it's time for the two Kains to meet, or have a showdown with Janos/HyldenLord....... not much good could result from involving young Kain, unless it's time for younger Kain to act radically different and throw the whole timeline out of whack in the hopes of ending up with something better. But that would be like pulling all the supports out from under older Kain's existence, let alone his plan. Old Kain should probably just hide behind a bush if he sees young Kain walking toward him, you know? Also, I think Janos/HyldenLord was flying off to fulfill BO2 history from now on, so there might not be much Kain can or should do about that guy.

What should happen after Defiance? Hell if I know. The time period we ended up in may be all tapped out. I think Kain is ready to start pushing the reset button on the pillars, cleaning them with a big can of WD40, using the reaver like a tooth brush to scrub all the corruption off of the pillars, replace the battery, put on a new coat of paint, then press the power button and see if the pillars light back up and call 8 new guardians. I just don't know what era this should be attempted in.

Valaquen_
6th Aug 2009, 13:15
What should happen after Defiance? Hell if I know. The time period we ended up in may be all tapped out. I think Kain is ready to start pushing the reset button on the pillars, cleaning them with a big can of WD40, using the reaver like a tooth brush to scrub all the corruption off of the pillars, replace the battery, put on a new coat of paint, then press the power button and see if the pillars light back up and call 8 new guardians. I just don't know what era this should be attempted in.
Ideally, Kain would return to his empire, appearing moments after he and Raziel pass through the Chronoplast.

Linikratyo
6th Aug 2009, 19:07
Ideally, Kain would return to his empire, appearing moments after he and Raziel pass through the Chronoplast.

A perfect homecoming :D

Valaquen_
6th Aug 2009, 20:44
A perfect homecoming :D

Though I have no idea what enemies Kain would face in his future empire. The Hyldens BO2 plan was scuppered by a younger Kain and events ran out as they did beforehand - Kains conquest of Nosgoth with his lieutenants. Hmm, makes me wonder why Kain said that they had walked into a trap at the end of SR2, his reshuffled memories should have let him known that the Hylden would be defeated with no major consequence. Raziel had no reshuffled memories so his time during Kains empire could not have changed, so the Hylden were defeated post BO2. The problem it seems, must be Janos... somehow, Janos in the demon dimension has repurcussions at some point after Defiance. If only the Dark Prophecy script leaked, even a little..

diuqSehT
6th Aug 2009, 20:53
Tempting era, the empire.

Maybe that would be the cleanest chance for it to end with "Kain getting his way" as your emphasis. No matter what era you heal the pillars in, history will be rewritten. But by traveling back to the SR1 empire, you'd be keeping intact the parts of history we've seen in the games and grown attached to. So our efforts as Raziel and Kain wouldn't be wiped away by history reshuffling; only the unseen future would reshuffle from decay to something....... preferable.

The drawbacks:

1) this still leaves huge chunks of Nosgoth's history ravaged by pain, destruction, the hunting of multiple species to the brink of extinction, etc. If we look at Kain as a timeline doctor performing surgery on history, returning to his empire to fix the pillars would make him look like a Civil War surgeon who just amputates limbs (or centuries of history) instead of healing the patient. Just giving up on the sick portion of Nosgoth's history and severing it from the part he's choosing to save---the "fixed" future.

2) restoring the pillars in SR1 times would likely leave several story elements incomplete. Because you'd also be restoring the barrier, keeping the hylden banished and their plotline unresolved. Which is a problem, as history shows us they don't like that and they'll keep popping up to cause major problems. Even if the barrier goes back up at full strength with vampires as guardians again so the hylden are truly sealed off and just have to stew in their own hatred for several millennia, it's still not a true resolution, you know? Maybe a realistic "best available option," but not the most ambitious or satisfying hylden ending by any means,

3) you may not see this as a problem, but I see it as another important goal to not only heal the pillars but also heal the ancients of the curse, and Kain would have no incentive or opportunity to do that if he's able to fix the pillars in the SR era. So you'd have both the vampires and hylden left unresolved in some ways. Forever after, we'd just have necromantic vampires enjoying the high life. Sure, that may seem cool, but it's also settling for second best. Remember the necro vamps were just a result of Mortaneus' desperate gamble to return the pillars to vampire guardianship by whatever means necessary. They aren't ideal. So I'm thinking we need some kind of ingenius resurrection for the living ancients---maybe if the Death pillar made them necro then the Nature pillar can return them to living mortals? Or do the hylden hold the key to the vampires' healing first before any other considerations? Maybe add in some timestreaming trickery to get it done? (Cuz once the curse is broken it'll take two to tango and Janos can't impregnate himself.) Or Kain miraculously changes states from necro to ancient the way Raziel changed from vamp to wraith, and the change washes over the vampire population after they partake of his blood? Something.

Escaton
6th Aug 2009, 21:11
We don't know the full story behind that - it's just yet another indication the story is not finished yet. As you said, it's fairly clear that there was more to Kain's statement "We walked right into their trap!" The Hylden are quite neatly defeated in Blood Omen 2 with no real problems, aside from Glyph Magic and Janos ending up in their realm, but then Hash'ak'gik's dying words state "One day, we shall return". I wouldn't simply write this off as an empty threat - Kain even accepts and rises to it ("I will be waiting").

From the screenshots, I get the idea that the Hylden were major enemies or at least presences in The Dark Prophecy, and the reason behind Kain's frantic warning was to be revealed in young Kain's chapters. Of course, since the Hylden are actually quite justified in trying to destroy Kain and wipe out the Vampires, it'd be great to see things from their perspective too. Janos is definitely a problem, otherwise why not resurrect him? Even so, not resurrecting him would have screwed Kain over badly in that game - he'd have died in the Device, or wouldn't have had a chance to get the Reaver back. Apparently leaving Janos dead was far more important, though.

Moebius does seem to know that the Hylden will be dealt with in time, but I'm not sure about his credibility beyond Kain's return from the Demon Realm. He couldn't foresee Kain's actions then, after all, and Kain's actions are almost certainly going to be the centrepiece of the next game (whenever it comes).

I know a lot of people want the Pillars to be restored, but... how? Superglue? Nobody has any understanding of the Ancients' magics any more, and the Pillars' purpose wasn't so noble in the first place - they were, fundamentally, a magical war weapon designed to imprison an entire race. I have it on authority that the Elder wasn't actually a God, and the statement that the Pillars are closely tied to the land's health seems to be an apocryph or mere coincidence - it's more likely that the Elder God itself caused Nosgoth's eventual decline as it grew.

FearGhoul
6th Aug 2009, 21:55
I think that what Kain was talking about at the end of Soul Reaver 2 might have to do with the fact that Janos fell into the Demon Dimension in Blood Omen 2. I think that he's either afraid of what Janos might become there, or maybe he's already seen it in The Dark Prophecy. This is really the only thing that can make sense to me. We know that the Hylden use Janos to let themselves loose, but of course, we see their plan fail, so from everything we see, it would seem that Janos's fall into the Demon Dimension could be the only thing he's referring to.

diuqSehT
6th Aug 2009, 22:24
or, to keep it simpler, Raziel's "death" happened after he brought Janos back to life, and the ending of SR2 was all about keeping Raziel alive, so Kain would have been pained to discover right after he succeeded in saving Raziel that a concrete death for Raziel had just been made part of the new timeline.

Escaton
6th Aug 2009, 22:41
That's a bit flawed - Kain was clearly shocked beyond belief when he discovered Raziel in the Spirit Forge, so he can't have been aware of those events and thus they can't have influenced his warning in SR2. Even with the timeline changed, I don't think Kain knew anything of the fight between Raziel and Janos, or its outcome.

The Chronoplast is only so useful - Kain knew of the "true enemy", but not its identity, machinations or shape - and his younger self's visions of the future in the Oracle's Caves never changed even after each paradox (or he'd have known everything in Defiance before it happened). Raziel was always going to die a concrete death sooner or later, it's a major theme in Defiance that his refusal to enter the Reaver was only "postponing his inevitable doom".

The_Hylden
6th Aug 2009, 23:36
"Behind Kain's eyes I could see new memories blooming and dying..." Raziel gives you a nice summary of what Kain's on about. Yes, Escaton, you are correct in that Kain could not and did not know of what was to happen to Raziel in this moment.

Kain's own past was changed. That is what he sees changing. He can't see the new future that would happen. Even though the events of Raziel going into the sword happen along BO1's present, which would be Elder Kain's past, young Kain was nowhere near these events and did not (certainly SHOULD not either) know of them. Kain's younger self has no knowledge of Raziel, or of Janos, besides the rumors from Uschtenheim, and he doesn't learn anything of Janos in actuality until he meets him face-to-face in BO2's time period. What was stated about Elder Kain having sudden knowledge of Janos' resurrection and subsequent entrapment into the Demon Dimension hundreds of years later is the only thing that Kain can know of -- and, in fact, it's exactly what's implied by Kain's statement: "Raziel! Janos must stay dead!" We know Kain defeats the Hylden even though they come through into Nosgoth. The only detail Kain wouldn't want to have happen in retrospect is Janos' ultimate fate. Janos is Kain's only ally and source of info about restoring Nosgoth he'll have left. If he's gone, indeed, potentually being used by the enemy on the other side, well, that's not good. I don't think Kain would get so up-in-arms over Janos having to suffer the 400 years he does to power the Device, and again, his younger self stops the threat in the end anyway. So, it's what happens to Janos after that which is the concern.

diuqSehT
6th Aug 2009, 23:39
Interesting. See, that's why we do this by committee.

That is hot and wierd that Kain "remembered" new hylden details from centuries into his new future, but had no idea that Raziel would die much sooner in the new future. Maybe that gets explained away by how Raziel's free will actions aren't viewable by Mobius or anyone else peeking into the time portals. Moe had to follow the ripples of Raziel's actions to figure out what the wraith was up to and control Raziel's options. So perhpas Kain's memory is fuzzy too when it comes to the free-willed one who hadn't yet made his choices?

Re: Janos
Since they had no problem devolving him into a demon ON NOSGOTH, there's no telling what becomes of him once actually in the demon banishment dimension. This is why if there ain't gonna be no Dark Prophecy, someone just needs to tell us what they came up with.

The_Hylden
7th Aug 2009, 00:05
?? I just explained this. Kain, Elder Kain, does NOT see into the future in this moment. He only has new memories of his own past -- a past that now has been altered -- flood into him. He can't remember events he, himself, did not live through. His memory changes. Only the events his younger self personally witnessed does he, Elder Kain, remember.




Let me put it this way... You go back in time to when you were a kid and stop a mass-murderer from being shot by the cops. That mass-murderer ten days from the moment you saved him winds up killing your father... This new memory you get immediately after you save the mass-murderer. This memory from this point in time is of an event that hasn't happened yet, but it's your own past, since you are in your own past... This mass-murderer also disappears in one year from this point and resurfaces in Argentina, where he becomes the new dictator. Now, yourself at this time as a kid never knows of this. The only new memory you have is that he's going to kill you father. Killing of your father is Janos going into the demon dimension, because your past self will witness it. The mass-murderer taking over Argentina one year from this point is NOT something you suddenly gain knowledge of, because you, yourself, never knew of it -- yet it still happens in this altered past...

Does that make more sense?

diuqSehT
7th Aug 2009, 00:58
Moreso the first paragraph than the second, but excellent effort on the 2nd !

Got it.

The_Hylden
7th Aug 2009, 07:48
lol Ok, then :D

Valaquen_
7th Aug 2009, 18:14
Well, started a bit of discussion here eh.

Without a follow-up, I can't see how Janos' fate in BO2 is enough to trouble future Kain, when he already knows by that time (after saving Raziel in the Stronghold) that the Hylden weren't a problem afterward. If they were, then Raziel's memories should have changed to accomodate this. But it didn't, so I think it's safe to assume that the Hylden were not a problem after Raziel's vampiric resurrection. Therefore, there must be a long reaching effect of BO2, one that extends into or after the time of Kain's derelict empire. Would the Hylden be too deranged to co-exist in a future Nosgoth with Kain's vampires? Would Kain destroying the Elder God change the Hylden's mind about who their enemy is (the EG and not Nosgoth's future vampires)? Do the Hylden have to remain banished for Nosgoth to heal? (essentially, they would be unwilling martyrs). (I'm speculating, but in the past did the Hylden unleash some sort of hell on Nosgoth that rendered the land dead, and the Ancients banishment was a double-edged sword that dealt the final blow to their enemies AND heal the land? That makes more sense to me. The Pillars, according to LoK sequels, are more prison bars than purveyor of life.)

All questions I would like to see addressed. C'mon LoK sequel, there's so much exciting ground for you to cover.

dumah's wraith
7th Aug 2009, 21:39
I don't think the pillars were trying to heal the land. I'm pretty sure they intended the opposite. I think it was more of a vicious twist to the banishment. The Pillars are the lock keeping the pillars from Nosgoth. They will try to unlock it. The Ancient's know this, so they make sure that if the lock breaks, Nosgoth dies, leaving the Hylden either imprisoned or escaping into a wasteland.

Now, as to why Kain was worried about Janos, I have another theory. When creating the prison for the Hylden, The Ancients didn't want one of their own to suffer that fate. So they left some loophole where Ancients could get out (this would also explain why those portals opened after Kain killed the demons in Defiance). And the Hylden fond some way to exploit the flaw in the future.

diuqSehT
7th Aug 2009, 22:54
mmmmmm, vampires have a scorched earth policy.
and tasty loophole abuse so hylden can pour through after Janos is finally broken.
these things please me.

In related news,

I've Got It !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It just came to me. The perfect continuation to take advantage of Janos being in hell. (Posting it in its own thread, because that's how hot it is!)

Valaquen_
7th Aug 2009, 22:58
I don't think the pillars were trying to heal the land. I'm pretty sure they intended the opposite. I think it was more of a vicious twist to the banishment. The Pillars are the lock keeping the pillars from Nosgoth. They will try to unlock it. The Ancient's know this, so they make sure that if the lock breaks, Nosgoth dies, leaving the Hylden either imprisoned or escaping into a wasteland.

Now, as to why Kain was worried about Janos, I have another theory. When creating the prison for the Hylden, The Ancients didn't want one of their own to suffer that fate. So they left some loophole where Ancients could get out (this would also explain why those portals opened after Kain killed the demons in Defiance). And the Hylden fond some way to exploit the flaw in the future.

Do you think that Nosgoths corruption is an influence of the Hyden breaking dimensions, or because they actually regulate the health of the land? The Pillars seem to have a dual purpose, the latter being pushed to the foreground in the last game

dumah's wraith
9th Aug 2009, 19:48
Both. I think the pillars are designed to preserve the health of the land UNLESS the Hylden break out, and to siphon it when they do.

Valaquen_
9th Aug 2009, 20:07
Both. I think the pillars are designed to preserve the health of the land UNLESS the Hylden break out, and to siphon it when they do.
Yes, I'd agree. Obviously not the original intention (of the game makers, not the Ancients) but I can see that it does both.

Alucard1990
27th Aug 2009, 23:44
Did this thread die off? I found it really interesting...

Linikratyo
28th Aug 2009, 17:21
Okay I found something in an archieved thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=42579).


Hi there all,
We always love to get questions concerning LOK, but it is much better if they are all submitted at one time. So let me know when you think your list is complete and I will pass it along to Jen and Kyle. I'm sure they will be willing to answer what they can when they have time. Unfortunately Richard is no longer working for Crystal Dynamics. He is missed extreemly.
Thanks.
~Chris

Now look at the date that it was posted:


07-20-2004, 06:49 PM

Does this have something to do with the cancelling of DP?? (Made the Dark Prophecy shot-cut :D)

Valaquen_
28th Aug 2009, 19:01
Okay I found something in an archieved thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=42579).



Now look at the date that it was posted:



Does this have something to do with the cancelling of DP?? (Made the Dark Prophecy shot-cut :D)
Kyle is no longer with us, and I do not know what became of Jen :(

Black Wraith
28th Oct 2009, 09:22
Ok if this game was in development and it was cancelled, clearly a script was already in hand. Now I believe that the writer(s) of this script should post it somewhere (as a fanfic or something) or even make comic series based on this. The Top Cow prelude comics to Soul Reaver and Defiance were pretty b.a. and I think they would make plenty of money (to develop LoK 6 of course) by making LoK comics for the hardcore fans. Look what they did to Halo and Gears of War (Ok, the Halo comics so far have sucked 'cept for the Graphic Novel and the Gears ones were pretty good) or even, hell, make a NOVEL!!!!

FearGhoul
29th Oct 2009, 02:35
I think they'd need the permission of Eidos. I'm pretty sure that legally, whoever wrote it can't just publish it as they wish.

Black Wraith
9th Nov 2009, 07:41
Well sure, but Eidos/Crystal Dynamics SHOULD give permission for that to happen. The fan base has been pretty vocal for 6 years now on anything news for the next LoK and they SHOULD give us something!

Valaquen_
9th Nov 2009, 11:40
To be honest, I don't think EIDOS care enough to even bother. The only ones who do care are the fans and members of CD themselves, who can't make a move without EIDOS. :(

Linikratyo
9th Nov 2009, 17:46
To be honest, I don't think EIDOS care enough to even bother. The only ones who do care are the fans and members of CD themselves, who can't make a move without EIDOS. :(

Damn you game industry!! :mad2: The artist should be in charge not the producers!

Paradoks
9th Nov 2009, 19:05
Apparently Eidos loves the franchise. It's just some weird twisted kind of love because they don't seem to show any interest.

http://www.industrygamers.com/news/interview-amy-hennig-on-making-uncharted-2-maximizing-ps3-and-more/



All I can tell you is that Eidos and Crystal Dynamics legitimately love that franchise. If anyone thinks it's sort of been thrown in the dustbin without any thought or care, that's not the case at all. I know they would love to revive it when the time is right and resources are there. I'm sure it's something they talk about;

Black Wraith
9th Nov 2009, 22:12
Well maybe if CD and Eidos put Lara Croft on a hiatus then maybe they'd finally give us another game. But the real question is: would they come back with the story of Kain establishing his empire post-BO2 or would they just finish it off and give us the end?

Valaquen_
9th Nov 2009, 23:14
Damn you game industry!! :mad2: The artist should be in charge not the producers!

Such a trend is prevalent in the movie industry, music industry... in fact, lets just capitalise it as the Industry, like something outta 1984 :lol:

Linikratyo
10th Nov 2009, 12:09
Such a trend is prevalent in the movie industry, music industry... in fact, lets just capitalise it as the Industry, like something outta 1984 :lol:

In the music and book industry you look for the artist or author not the one who has published it. That's not the case in the game industry

Pierremarsal
1st Mar 2010, 18:35
In December 2009, Crystal Dynamics put out an advertisement for a job position. The position would require the applicant to work on "multiplayer vision and design effort for "one of the most prestigious AAA franchises in the industry." Although this is likely referring to the Tomb Raider series, there is some speculation it could actually be referring to the Legacy Of Kain series. :confused:

There is still hope :o

Shrykull_the1st
1st Mar 2010, 20:02
Thinking about this...and man, I just had a vision of the time when Soul Reaver had such a grim atmosphere and it was such a kickass game. Why can't those times be back?.... I need those surreal characters back................................................................:(

Pierremarsal
1st Mar 2010, 20:45
Many games have been resurrected

I think one day a new LOK game will actually be available lets hope it will reflect the quality of the former ones (SR 1 in particular).

I just think Eidos must still be thinking about it since they didn't drop anything official concerning the future of the serie.

tinribz
5th Apr 2010, 11:49
I have the whole series and love them all, it would be a waste not to continue the series with the capability of the ps3 & the xbox? i have been playing defiance again for the ps2 and to be fair the games still good, apart from the dodgy camera angles, just think of how big the game could be? it would be a waste of one of the best story lines ive seen in a game, so come eidos pull your finger out!

Raziel'sRevenge
6th Apr 2010, 04:24
Welcome to the forums tinribz, I hope you enjoy yourself around here. I always love to see a dedicated fan, it's nice to know that we're still out there! Take a look at the link in my signature for things you can do to help get a new game made, the majority of them take very little time/money/effort but have a much larger effect than you'd think. If we all stick together for this we'll get a new game yet :D

Also, once you've read the list I have feel free to post suggestions of things to add to said list

saifmughal
25th May 2010, 13:07
When the new version of Lok will be out?

Linikratyo
25th May 2010, 16:23
When the new version of Lok will be out?

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=100901

Raziel'sRevenge
29th Jun 2010, 09:26
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=100901

lol thanks Linikratyo

Valaquen_
24th Sep 2010, 18:40
The script for this game is out there ...

ghostlion88
12th Mar 2011, 15:42
The script for this game is out there ...

It is??? I just did a half-hour google search and didn't find it, just before checking this thread actually. I was thinking that if DP was actually officially canceled, the story would be released on the Lost Worlds or something. Maybe I wasn't thorough enough, but I didn't find it.

When the TV show Invader ZIM was officially canceled, the producers of the show released all the scripts for the unmade episodes, and even some of the audio.

If LOK Dark Prophecy is officially canceled, fans should at least be granted the closure to read the official ending from the official writers, the people who wrote the story for the other games.

Even if the game never gets made, at least we could read how the story "really" ended, as opposed to the convoluted fan-fiction speculations being tossed around. And please don't take that the wrong way!! Fan fiction can be a beautiful thing because it shows dedication. I have played a beta of Prodigal Sons and am actually about to finally play LOK Revival (which I've been looking forward to all week, but have literally been working nonstop with 4 hours of sleep each night between schoolwork and everything else), and these are all very exciting. They just aren't "official."

Whatever happens, I will always be a dedicated LOK fan. I believe Kain & Raziel are perhaps the two greatest protagonists that the fiction world has ever seen, and I am always looking forward to a continuation of their plots, both Kain's AND Raziel's.

Bazielim
12th Mar 2011, 20:55
The script for this game is out there ...
From our own "LoK:The Dark Prophecy" article on the LoK Wiki ;- "Andez Gaston (LOK: DP artist) has posted at Nosgothic Realm, revealing that a script for the story had not been written at the time he created his artwork, and expressing his support for a new game in the future" link -.http://nosgoth.yuku.com/topic/6194?page=10 (that's him posting as "Dez")

Linikratyo
12th Mar 2011, 21:48
It is??? I just did a half-hour google search and didn't find it, just before checking this thread actually. I was thinking that if DP was actually officially canceled, the story would be released on the Lost Worlds or something. Maybe I wasn't thorough enough, but I didn't find it.

When the TV show Invader ZIM was officially canceled, the producers of the show released all the scripts for the unmade episodes, and even some of the audio.

If LOK Dark Prophecy is officially canceled, fans should at least be granted the closure to read the official ending from the official writers, the people who wrote the story for the other games.

Even if the game never gets made, at least we could read how the story "really" ended, as opposed to the convoluted fan-fiction speculations being tossed around. And please don't take that the wrong way!! Fan fiction can be a beautiful thing because it shows dedication. I have played a beta of Prodigal Sons and am actually about to finally play LOK Revival (which I've been looking forward to all week, but have literally been working nonstop with 4 hours of sleep each night between schoolwork and everything else), and these are all very exciting. They just aren't "official."

Whatever happens, I will always be a dedicated LOK fan. I believe Kain & Raziel are perhaps the two greatest protagonists that the fiction world has ever seen, and I am always looking forward to a continuation of their plots, both Kain's AND Raziel's.

Well, I don't think they wanted to stop making LoK games completely, only at the time they probably wanted to invest in Tomb Raider rather than LoK and that's why I think they cancelled it. The fact that they have not confirmed the cancelling of the game or the fact that they won't be making any LoK games any more or the fact that they have given us the script for it is only good news in my eyes...

Xen
12th Mar 2011, 22:44
I agree there's still hope LOK:DP could have just been put on a back burner since cd was given tomb raider

Valaquen_
14th Mar 2011, 00:42
From our own "LoK:The Dark Prophecy" article on the LoK Wiki ;- "Andez Gaston (LOK: DP artist) has posted at Nosgothic Realm, revealing that a script for the story had not been written at the time he created his artwork, and expressing his support for a new game in the future" link -.http://nosgoth.yuku.com/topic/6194?page=10 (that's him posting as "Dez")

Yeah, I said that before he said there wasn't a script. But I'm sure something existed, if they had game locations and everything being rendered.

Xen
14th Mar 2011, 13:31
They probably had a rough storyline planned but no full scripts written

Bazielim
14th Mar 2011, 20:15
whoops - didn't check dates - my bad ;-)
To be honest I'd agree with both of you though - you can't go to that level of detail with no idea whatsoever about the story - so they must have had some ideas about it...even if the script itself wasn't written, they probably had a rough idea where the story was going.

Shrykull_the1st
25th Mar 2011, 10:54
All this hype now on vampires...what do you think for a new LoK...good or bad, marketwise?

Bloodspawn
11th Sep 2011, 16:29
It is empirical that Eidos Games promote the idea that something must happen to cause this tittle to be recognized and re-ignited again.

Enough time has past that myriad permutations of what another addition to the LOK saga could mean to start the snowball rolling again, both financially and culturally?

"Legacy of Kain" is a story that needs to be embraced in vampiric lore, so as those who love the subject of "Verdilak" or "Nosferatu" finds its proper center of things.

The premise that a vampiric blade could to remade into a soul devouring one, and then redeemed into a purified weapon to restore a world from it own corruption is indeed a most compelling story, and a lucrative endeavor to pursue as well.

I see this tittle as having great movie potential, to one of great vision and means!

How can I make you this case more poignant?

Itachy
30th Dec 2011, 08:31
Such a shame the game was canceled. :(

HELLPITE200
25th Jun 2012, 21:57
I THINK THEY SHOULD MAKE THE GAME BECAUSE THE WAY Defiance ended the game look like there was more to the story now how kain say at the end hope so to me he was going to fight for hope for nosgoth