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skoomaeater
12th Nov 2008, 03:29
After seeing a thread about health regeneration and how it will shape up in DX3 I had an idea.

With the focus being on mechanical augmentations instead of nanotech, having mechanical items regenerate biological tissues does seem a little ridiculous. it would be great if a character had persistant damage decals, similar to what they tried and failed to do effectively in alone in the dark recently.

So if the PC takes a shotgun blast to the face, have it look grizzled and damaged, or even showing the mechanical underneath.

Thoughts?

GmanPro
12th Nov 2008, 03:50
My AJ won't be getting any scars. :thumbsup:

I'm going pure stealth when I get pick up a copy of this bad boy. :D

K^2
12th Nov 2008, 04:51
My AJ won't be getting any scars. :thumbsup:
All hail quick-load. http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4963/worshipve1.gif

GmanPro
12th Nov 2008, 07:47
^^
lol pretty much yeah :D

ZylonBane
12th Nov 2008, 07:50
So if the PC takes a shotgun blast to the face, have it look grizzled and damaged, or even showing the mechanical underneath.
This is not an idea about regenerating health. This is an idea about graphics.

GmanPro
12th Nov 2008, 07:53
Reminds me of Terminator... :scratch:

Fable 2 has something like that:
If you ever get "knocked out" (essentially killed) you will bounce back up with full life but you will have a permanent scar which will slightly lower your attractiveness. :thumbsup:

Jerion
12th Nov 2008, 07:56
Sounds pretty cool. I like the idea of bullet wounds leaving some scars. No more will we have blemish-free skin! :D


This is not an idea about regenerating health. This is an idea about graphics.

It's both, really. It's an idea about how regenerating health affects the graphics. :)

Romeo
12th Nov 2008, 08:03
Though I'm sure people hate the comparison, but I've noticed in Gears of War 2 in multiplayer, the Locust (Beast-like guys) when shots will get scarred, which stays with them for the rest of the match. Similarly, if armors/hats/masks get shot off they stay off. So it is definately possible, albeit, completely unnecessary.

GmanPro
12th Nov 2008, 08:11
Don't know if this has been brought u b4 or not but is auto-regen going to resurrect me with no penalty i.e Bioshock or Fable2? :scratch:

I seriously hope not... :thumbsup:

spm1138
12th Nov 2008, 09:01
What about resurrecting you with no penalty like the quick-load key? :rasp:

K^2
12th Nov 2008, 09:17
So it is definately possible[...]
It is just a matter of how detailed you want it to be, really. You can go from trivial to extremely complex on this.

GmanPro
13th Nov 2008, 00:39
What about resurrecting you with no penalty like the quick-load key? :rasp:

I will never die of course cause :thumbsup:

I will become one with cover stealth... and thermoptic camo http://fc18.deviantart.com/fs14/f/2007/038/7/d/Ninja_Poof_by_OldVamp.gif

AaronJ
13th Nov 2008, 16:19
Can I offer an idea for an alternative?

Mod it up.

Ritter
13th Nov 2008, 17:03
My idea for auto regenerating health in DX3 is this: you only get to auto generating your health ONLY on your torso part and ONLY to half of the total health of the torso,everything else's the same as Deus ex 1

GmanPro
13th Nov 2008, 18:34
I have a FANTASTIC idea.

How about they just give us the regeneration augmentation for free at the beginning of the game like they gave us the light aug at the start of DX1?

ALL problems are now solved. And EVERYONE is happy. :thumbsup:

Or at least I am... :D

Jerion
13th Nov 2008, 18:40
I have a FANTASTIC idea.

How about they just give us the regeneration augmentation for free at the beginning of the game like they gave us the light aug at the start of DX1?

ALL problems are now solved. And EVERYONE is happy. :thumbsup:

Or at least I am... :D

That works. Man, are there gonna be a lot of red faces if it turns out thats what they're doing anyway. :lol:

GmanPro
13th Nov 2008, 20:09
At least I'd be satisfied with my gaming experience, red face notwithstanding. :thumbsup:

I hope EM sees my post and realizes that its obviously a better option than straight-up auto-heal if they haven't already thought of that themselves.

K^2
14th Nov 2008, 17:54
It doesn't resolve all the issues with it. Problems with auto-regen go beyond it being unrealistic. Personally, I couldn't care less about realistic if it works with gameplay. And I'd accept limited auto-regen as part of the gameplay if it was properly limited.

1) Auto-regen must be limited by rate or quantity. Rate is obvious. For quantity limitation, it could use up your bio-energy, just like regen aug did. Since devs argument auto-regen as a method to prevent getting stuck in the game, I doubt they'll limit quantity. Therefore, it should be very limited by rate. Think Diablo.

2) It should not contradict locational damage and any crippling effects thereof.

3) It should not contradict other damaging effects. E.g. poison, fire, and toxin damage.

If all these are considered, then auto-regen can be worked into Deus Ex gameplay. If not, the gameplay will suffer, and fans will be greatly disapointed. It might still turn out to be a great game, but it will not be a Deus Ex experience.

AaronJ
14th Nov 2008, 18:27
I have a FANTASTIC idea.

How about they just give us the regeneration augmentation for free at the beginning of the game like they gave us the light aug at the start of DX1?

ALL problems are now solved. And EVERYONE is happy. :thumbsup:

Or at least I am... :D

And there it was...the solution,

GmanPro
14th Nov 2008, 18:34
1) Auto-regen must be limited by rate or quantity. Rate is obvious. For quantity limitation, it could use up your bio-energy, just like regen aug did. Since devs argument auto-regen as a method to prevent getting stuck in the game, I doubt they'll limit quantity. Therefore, it should be very limited by rate. Think Diablo.


True... maybe they will have your bio-energy recharge itself slowly.

Don't know if I like that idea either but...

If they just plain give us the regeneration aug at the start, and have it work exactly as it did in DX1, well, it would appease the casual gamer and the hardcore fan at the same time.

Mindmute
14th Nov 2008, 18:39
True... maybe they will have your bio-energy recharge itself slowly.

Don't know if I like that idea either but...

If they just plain give us the regeneration aug at the start, and have it work exactly as it did in DX1, well, it would appease the casual gamer and the hardcore fan at the same time.

Wouldn't appease me!..
I understand and fully accept nanotech being able to rebuild your tissue, but a mechanical augmentation that does that on the fly?
And without external ressources?
By 2027?

Adam might aswell spawn Ambrosia from his saliva while you're at it. ;)

GmanPro
14th Nov 2008, 18:46
^^
HEY! :mad:

It's better than CoD4 at least! And like K^2 said, it doesn't really matter if its completely realistic, just so long as it works gameplay wise.

K^2
14th Nov 2008, 18:53
True... maybe they will have your bio-energy recharge itself slowly.

Don't know if I like that idea either but...

If they just plain give us the regeneration aug at the start, and have it work exactly as it did in DX1, well, it would appease the casual gamer and the hardcore fan at the same time.
I actually like this idea even better. Take away auto-heal. Give us a very slow auto-recharge and a manual regen aug from start instead. I think it will work better for most than auto-heal and will accomplish all the same tasks.

GmanPro
14th Nov 2008, 19:01
Almost every game that has "energy" or "mana" etc... has it recharge itself.

So by that logic, then its not a bad idea. And you could use your bio-energy to activate the regeneration-aug whenever you wanted, not just when you are hiding behind cover or not in a fight etc.

Maybe if you are out of bio-energy, and you try to activate the regen-aug, it would still work, but only as fast as the bio-energy can recharge itself.

And of course you would be able to upgrade your regen-aug at a later time to have it eat up less energy and heal faster. Or maybe even upgrade to a faster bio-energy recharge rate. :scratch:

K^2
14th Nov 2008, 19:16
Precisely. Though, my concern is over people who said that adding auto-heal removed strategy of managing health packs. Now we add bio-cells to that list.

Personally, I always thought that bio-energy should recharge itself at least at some rate. To me, that makes for better gameplay. It also makes sense in terms of engineering. It'd be easy to use some waste energy produced by muscles to charge batteries. Some watches have been using such idea for decades. Though, it does end up going a bit against canon. If recharging bio-energy is possible, why don't the nano-augmented agents have systems for that? But again, I'd look at gameplay arguments as more significant.

GmanPro
14th Nov 2008, 19:22
Good point, although I don't think it would be hard at all for EM to throw in some cool story element to explain why AJ has super-advanced augs for his time.

Maybe that's the whole point. Maybe AJ has some new augmentation tech that the bad guys want to get, or destroy, or whatever. I don't know how they are going to do it, but there are ways to make it seem plausible I'm sure.

spm1138
15th Nov 2008, 02:56
Worrying about "canon" in a videogame is silly.

Actually it's kind of ridiculous anywhere but especially so in a videogame.

The fluff text should serve the gameplay, not the other way around.

jd10013
15th Nov 2008, 03:01
Wow. I go away for a little while waiting for new info, and I come back to auto regen health. This could definitely be a make or break element to the game, and its going to be real interesting to see how they do it. As of right now, I think I'll stay on the fence with this one. I do believe it could be done effectively, and even make the game better. as others have said, spending time doing nothing more than scouring around for heath packs isn't' that that great. on top of that, by the halfway point of almost every game I've played heath packs have kind of become a non factor in the game. Seems to me that all games end up giving you some kind of "health aug" that allows you to heal faster, better, and cheaper than with packs, or your have a constant inventory of like 15 or more of them where keeping your health up is no longer an issue.

on the other hand, its hard to imagine a DX game without medkits, doctors to bribe, medbots, candy bars and so on.

I don't know. maybe something where the healing rate starts off really slow, but can be upgraded as the game goes on would work. that way there would still be a need for medkits and such. in fact, they could then be less common, and therefor more valuable. but as the game moved on and mundane tasks like that started getting old, you could upgrade your regen rate.

K^2
15th Nov 2008, 05:39
The fluff text should serve the gameplay, not the other way around.
I don't think you properly understand the medium. Lets look at the evolution of entertainment a bit. Theater and books, as oldest forms of entertainment, were based around the story alone. Then came the motion pictures, which originally were just for show, but as they developed, started incorporating more and more story. Now, the story element is at least as important as the visual quality of the movie. Then came video games. First, they were based on interaction alone, and had no visuals or story to speak of. But as the visuals started picking up, so did the story. Now, there are many games in which the story is the principal element, with visuals taking second place, and interaction being just a minor element.

Now, I'm not saying that all games should have a good story. In many games, story gets in the way. Just like there are some movies out there now which would work better if they did away with story all together, and just let the audience watch the special effects without interruption. But that doesn't define movies as a medium.

Similar thing is true of games. If the game is purely interaction-driven, then gameplay is the king, and story should exist only to the point where it doesn't distract from gaming. Deus Ex was not intended as one of such games. Maybe the elements of story-based moral choices were lost on some people, but for a lot, these were the defining elements of the game. Take a note that a lot of people complained about IW on these grounds alone, being prepared to swallow choppy graphics and drawbacks in gameplay if the story was better.

If DX3 focuses on gameplay alone, and just leaves story as "fluff", a lot of people will be turned away. Personally, I agree that problems with canon shouldn't prevent a gameplay element. I would rather have an in-story explanation that sounds stretched to make gameplay element work, than to drop a perfectly good gameplay element in favor of more canon story. Almost all of the fans will accept such sacrifices as necessary. But if you treat the story as "fluff", the game will tank. It will only get accepted by a fraction of the fan base, get bad reviews, and end up in the bargain bin before Eidos knows what happened.

GmanPro
15th Nov 2008, 06:00
All of that aside... Auto-regenerating bio-energy is a better idea than auto-regenerating health.

1. Give us the regen aug at the start of the game
2. have bio-energy auto-regen
3. make regen rate of both ^ start out rather slow and let the player upgrade them over time.

Sounds like a sound plan to me. And this way you could still have health kits, bio-energy cells, food, med-bots, repair-bots. But now the devs only need to think of those elements as emergency necessities.

It seems to me that a slow-regen rate at the start would still be fine later on in the game. Because to me, DX isn't the type of game where you need your health to heal back to full in the next 12 seconds so that you can handle the next wave of baddies coming at you. The player should have to slow down and think about their situation a little bit. But still, if they really don't want to do that, then they could simply pop a few candy bars or grab a medkit etc and keep going.

I honestly don't see anything wrong with that structure. Do you?

lolocaust
15th Nov 2008, 06:33
I really hope Eidos actually listen to some of the good ideas in this thread, coming from a big fan of DX1, and normally a quite casual gamer.

GmanPro
15th Nov 2008, 07:14
Me too lolocaust... me too.

spm1138
15th Nov 2008, 07:19
I don't think you properly understand the medium. But if you treat the story as "fluff", the game will tank. It will only get accepted by a fraction of the fan base, get bad reviews, and end up in the bargain bin before Eidos knows what happened.

Fluff text (http://everything2.com/e2node/fluff%2520text) <> Important narrative stuff.


Fluff text, also referred to as flavor text, is a short passage used to describe something in gaming. It has no bearing on the stats of the item or how it plays, but rather merely provides background information. Game systems such a Battletech and Dungeons and Dragons use it in sourcebooks to flesh out characters and history.

The "fluff text" is just the background blurb on how items work.

This will generally be the specific details of how almost any item actually works in game.

It's really just the bridge between the gameplay mechanics and the fiction of the game.
There might be very good game design reasons for making everything ingame dependent on readily available disposable pick-ups but it looks kinda silly so you put in some blurb about why your state of the art nano-implants don't have a more advanced energy reclamation system than a self-winding watch and viola (http://www.dsokids.com/art/instruments/photo1200viola.jpg).

Occasionally stuff with fluff text will also be a MacGuffin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin) or even detail critical premise for sci fi but most of the time it just doesn't matter and is there as a means not an end.

It's an excuse for doing stuff the way you want to.

It's not "real" and doesn't need following slavishly.

K^2
15th Nov 2008, 07:40
Ok. I obviously misunderstood what you meant. Sorry.

But I'm still not sure I agree with you. I'm aware of quite a few works of fiction where such fluff text contradicts some other info. Trekkies like to make a big deal out of these things. E.g. specifics on Warp Factor. But that's because shows/games like that aren't trying to be self-consistent. They can't, really.

Deus Ex has all kinds of little snippets of info scattered throughout the game that by themselves don't add a lot of meaning to the whole. However, when taken together and analyzed as related pieces of information, they actually expand the story. Yes, I am aware of the fact that from perspective of the story itself, there is no difference. These are still just there to create motivations for various factions, and specifics aren't necessarily important. Who really cares what experiments Red Greazels came from, right? But it is the detail and self-consistency that drives some players to find and analyze every bit of info in an attempt to put together the bigger picture. If all of these were simply unconnected pieces of flavor text, that would not happen.

I'm going to venture a guess that the reason it works out so well is because the story was written as a whole, and then divided. Some parts to go into main narrative, and some to go into little bits of notes. So by collecting all of the notes together, you are looking at an expanded narrative, rather than a whole lot of "flavor text".

People will expect the same from DX3. EM is better be prepared to deliver for the reasons I outlined in the previous post. And while the most important thing will be the self-consistency within the game, if there are any obvious things that will break canon of DX, people will complain, and it will hurt the game.

spm1138
15th Nov 2008, 08:23
But I'm still not sure I agree with you. I'm aware of quite a few works of fiction where such fluff text contradicts some other info. Trekkies like to make a big deal out of these things. E.g. specifics on Warp Factor. But that's because shows/games like that aren't trying to be self-consistent. They can't, really.

It's more a case of they don't bother because it's completely besides the point.

Look at how the episodes are put together.

The technology itself is almost never the point.

The repercussions of it frequently are though ... so the imaginary technology is a means to an end for the writer.

So they might contradict how warp engines work if it's in doing so they're setting up the main point the writer is trying to make with the episode.

The story is usually about the people. If it's not then it's probably a pretty weak episode.

If you take Trek as the example there's usually some real world present day point they're making which renders worrying about "warp drive physics" a pastime for people who have nothing better to do.

To be fair having some rough rules and then sticking to them does help suspension of disbelief and I guess it can work the other way... like if you have this technology and you follow through on how it works then it can raise interesting questions in itself but generally it isn't the focus.

This goes double for videogames where there's usually a whole other set of considerations for doing stuff the way you do.

In HALO for example the Master Chief's armour has a shield on it that functions the way it does because the player is supposed to be capable of heroic action but not invulnerable. They change the way it works from 1 to 2 for gameplay reasons and the fluff text accommodates that. It's never a hugely important detail in itself.


expanded narrative

Some of it is. Some of it isn't.

Emails about offing the parents of the "second prototype" (put your own real name in... it's much more unsettling when you find those) = extended narrative.

Specifics of plasma rifle mechanism / NEB = fluff text.

GmanPro
15th Nov 2008, 08:30
Specifics of plasma rifle mechanism / NEB = fluff text.

And whats wrong with that? IMO that's awesome. I like to see little things like that. It reminds me of Baldur's Gate, where each and every item in the game had a short description, and magical items would have a longer description which would tell you the history of the item (how it was made, who its previous owners were etc).

spm1138
15th Nov 2008, 08:38
Didn't say there was anything wrong with it.

I really dig high tech weapons (http://www.hkpro.com/wsg2000.htm). I'm nerdy enough to own art books and technical manuals from this or that.

I was just commenting on which way round these things should work.

K^2
15th Nov 2008, 08:55
Alright. I concede. Though to me, personally, inconsistencies of any kind, and in tech specifically, tend to make the story a little less serious. If it isn't something serious to begin with, no big deal. You'll never see me complaining about physics in Road Runner.

Jerion
15th Nov 2008, 10:13
Heh, I think a classic example of losing seriousness is that episode of Stargate SG-1 where a Gould Assasin starts attacking a human base, and O'neill puts the base under lockdown because the assasin has stolen a GDO.

Of course, when you realize that GDO stands for Garage Door Opener the whole thing seems ridiculous. :D

Abram730
15th Nov 2008, 12:08
This was my post on this
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=866224#post866224