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AdamJensen
9th Nov 2008, 20:09
Hey!

Here's what the doc told me on how my brain got hacked.

Earlier brain hacking attempts usually ended up rendering the person insanse because it involved permanent damage to the corpus callosum among other areas of the brain. The approach was to prime the memory system using forced audio visual inputs through the ears and eyes to activate the relavant information in the memory system. Further selective activation of the Cingulate gyrus and the Amygdala gave a short time window where the subject could reveal the information through speech after repeated priming and questioning. But because of the damage and imprecise nature of this method often the person often became incoherent soon after activating the amygdala and it was almost impossible to retrieve anything specific after that.

In my case a radical new method has been used to extract information. It begins with audio visual priming as usual but is followed by hooking up a machine dubbed as the "brain crawler" to the left hemisphere of the brain. The corpus callosum and other other regions are not harmed. Instead the machine is used to brute force search using directives from the operator and locate the set of regions to be temporarily disabled so that the subject starts giving out whatever information is necessary. The crawler is remarkable in that is it able to use tens of thousands of micro filaments to crawl through and disable and restore parts of the brain.

Now you know why I have the hexagonal cut into my left frontal lobe which is usually the one responsible for language and speech.

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc159/eternaltreasure/1.jpg

If on the other hand I was neuro augmented --- it would have been a lot more easier. There is no way to secure it through crypto since the rest of the brain has to interface with the augmentation and the brain can't do crypto on its own.

Not really mind-boggling if you know a bit of brain architecture :whistle:

SageSavage
9th Nov 2008, 20:22
Nice idea. :)

Tracer Tong
10th Nov 2008, 08:04
I like the first person impersonation.

Are you a "made in Montreal"?

Lazarus Ledd
10th Nov 2008, 14:20
"Honey, I shrunk the kiiiiids!"

okay, it too far out, although it's been feature in a movie and in a music video (Placebo - Special K, but for medical purposes)

On a silly note: If they could hack the brain, maybe they did it wireless, but not between a compter and a man's brain, but a telephat and the victim. Maybe the Russian progressed in that area since the WW2? / Cold War...further speculating, maybe the bad guys in DX3 are Russians.

On a serious note: Maybe they started to augment themselves with flash, or some kind of memory into their head.

Since the center of the vision is such a small fraction inside our head, behind our eyes, it's few milimeters long and so much visual information is gathered there. If it's affected, if you lose it, if someone rips the eyes of you and destroys the center in the process, you lose all your visual memory.
So since it so complicated, not to mess with it, science and techonlogy used the next best thing to enhance/add a photoraphic memory for the people. Install the plain memory. On the mention of memory, nobody thinks about our brain, but tech-wise how we are today and with all the wars intelVS.amd etc. we think of RAM, flash, GDDRx whatever....
Going along that line of thought, public people of DX3 could have access to that fancy stuff of tommorow. We are entering a new decade in the world of computer technology, and objectives like the creation of trustworthy software/hardware, improvement in capability and the ability to "do more with less" by applying technology is moving from dreams to reality. People will start to customize that by augmenting comm, memory and various system, who knows...

AJ is a man who is augmented by tommorows technology, publicly available to everyone and private bussinessmen, If he is getting a chance to apply the military one's during thecourse of the game, hidden from public and only rare people know and have access to it, than it must be the public is enjoying more available technology taht is used to augment their social, sex, bussiness or fun activities. AJ has access to it, and maybe to a more complex aug equipment due to his job. And maybe he more into customizing it, by himself, so that he has something special to differentiate from other Chief security guys in the town/state/world.

This is what we see as Augmented Reallity from a 2008. point of view.(actually the arcticle was written in 2004), but predictments are changing every year, just like with the "climate wars" issue. We're not sure are we up for a heat period, or a new ice age and it can happen sudden.
http://www.naturalnews.com/001333.html
What will be in 2027 who know, will we surpass the expectations and how are secret, shady or private orgs progressing now or in year 2027.....


A 'metal' scar that's visible on AJ mug, seen in first magazine scans indicates that he already had some kind of augmentation applied prior to the incident at the labs, maybe customized one: a memory bank with a special access to and he thought no one from the plain thiefs could broke. What he didn't know is that the army or special corporation were already heavy in the augmentation development and they had the skill and exp to create and execute a way to discretely hack into AJ's augmented memory. AJ surly didn't take into consideration to protect from SWAT-like guys of 2027, who were btw, augmented....or not =p.....

AdamJensen
10th Nov 2008, 15:50
Are you a "made in Montreal"?

I wish! :D

@Lazarus Ledd are you talking about the optic nerve or the temporal lobe? The occipital lobe does most of the visual processing which is not reallt tiny. The temporal lobe also does quite some visual work and is involved in memory but I kinda dozed off while the doc was explaining. I think it was the pain killers. So I don't believe the visual memory will be lost.

http://www.greyc.ensicaen.fr/~assemlal/IMG/jpg/brainmetastasis2.jpg

What I said in the first post while hand wavy is not random parts of the brain thrown in. It makes a lil bit of sense :)

Lazarus Ledd
10th Nov 2008, 21:52
Watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPBvFXf9Q2U
:D

Then reinterpet this text i adjusted to the video sketch near the end of it with the same voice from film trailers =D


In The City. You Must Fight To Survive. He Worked At Engineering Laboratory. And The Mob Wanted In. -I want his blueprints and his employess, DEAD. POOF!!! He Had One Chance And His Chance Was To Fight Back. Adam Jensen: - Listen-to-me. These-are my blueprints and I'm-not-gonna-give-them-out-of-here. You got to get out here, they're trying to kill you. get out, let go of me , argh, argh, argh. Double The Action. POOF! Triple The Excitement. -Get down! -MORE OF EXCITEMENT. -Get down again. -They Didn't Know Who He Is.. -Mi'hito who are these men who came here? -Listen to me, you have to keep you head down. They're trying to take my blueprints PFFF! One Man. tick-tick... tick-tick... One Desire. This Summer ,(2010), Adam Jensen is: The Little Security Guy!



:lol:

imported_van_HellSing
10th Nov 2008, 22:43
Keanu Reeves as Adam Jensen.

He knew too much.

"I knew too much!"

He went to Shanghai

"I went to Shanghai!"

Spyhopping
10th Nov 2008, 23:05
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc159/eternaltreasure/1.jpg

(^Note the black smoke beginning to fill the picture)

He smoked too much

"I smoked too much"

He caught on fire

"aaaaaaaghgaaaah"

AdamJensen
11th Nov 2008, 05:29
...
Adam Jensen is: The Little Security Guy!




:lol:

I can't get the voice out of my head.

spyhopping you need to make a youtube trailer :D With the aaaaaaaghgaaaah sound from the first game.
Any good voice actors on this forum? :D

Lazarus Ledd
11th Nov 2008, 08:46
No but the guys from Off Topic Productions have a lot of exp, cause we all did some part in the upcoming mod for Deus Ex, The Nameless Mod

http://thenamelessmod.com/
http://www.offtopicproductions.com/forum/

AaronJ
11th Nov 2008, 14:54
Oh ****,

Is this troll going to go around the whole board talking in first-person?

AdamJensen
11th Nov 2008, 17:09
What's the problem? Everyone else seems to be talking in first person too! :rasp:







I did that only for a couple of posts. I kinda got fed up of people giving nonsense arguments that something or the other is unrealistic and its not the tech that we could have by 2027. If the game will suck it will suck because of major issues not things like slightly unrealistic-for-a-future-game-world tech. While my "idea" for brain hacking may seem just as bogus, its no more silly than the descriptions of the nano-tech augs in DX1—just saying the devs might be able to come up with decent explanations. Fanbois should give the devs some breathing space.

Mindmute
11th Nov 2008, 18:42
Oh ****,

Is this troll going to go around the whole board talking in first-person?

Mind if I ask why you call him a troll? He hasn't been disrespectful to anyone in any way, nor has he ruined any discussions as far as I can tell. People who aren't interested in participating in the discussions, but who post anyway to complain about this or that are a lot more troll-like.


I did that only for a couple of posts. I kinda got fed up of people giving nonsense arguments that something or the other is unrealistic and its not the tech that we could have by 2027..
Well most of their arguements aren't really nonsense, I also don't believe "brain hacking" would be possible by 2027 (and would therefore frown if it was in DX3), however I agree that the things that will make or break the game will be much bigger than that.
Details give a polished and deep experience, however they do not make it. If something is bad enough to ruin the experience, it's no longer a detail by definition.





ps:
^ see what I did in that first paragraph? :rolleyes:

Spyhopping
11th Nov 2008, 19:00
Troll? Just seemed like a bit of harmless fun to me

This 2006 study might interest you. It's all about how activation patterns in the brain can be mapped using fMRI and linked with simple mental constructs.
This allows the researcher to observe the patterns of activation in the individuals brain and make an informed decision about what they are attending to.
It's a fair step away from mind reading being used for information extraction but relevant research is being done
The summary is freely available on this site.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VH9-4KKNNHN-8&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e459026d2ef21ad7027df900a04af8d4


EDIT:
I personally don't see accurate "brain hacking" being possible by 2027 (or ever) but then I'm not expecting people to be walking around with body parts actually replaced by machines either.
There are more simple ways of extracting information anyway
In the words of Walton Simons- "We have other ways of making you talk"

gamer0004
11th Nov 2008, 19:21
You know, there kind of are already people "walking around with body parts actually replaced by machines"...

Spyhopping
11th Nov 2008, 19:57
Sorry, that was unclear. I meant as in directly linked in to tissue and nerve cells- machines used for military purposes. But what I said was essentially rubbish :D
There have been experiments done with monkeys where they control a robotic arm which is linked up to their brain

AdamJensen
11th Nov 2008, 19:59
Well most of their arguements aren't really nonsense, I also don't believe "brain hacking" would be possible by 2027 (and would therefore frown if it was in DX3

Neither do I believe that it will be possible in the way some people have suggested. That is hooking up the brain to a machine and have it essence extract all the information, and since that's next to impossible they conclude that brain hacking is impossible and hence unrealistic for a game in 2027. My suggestion at a brain hack was more of applying what we know from neuroscience to forcefully make a person tell what he doesn't want to-since torture techniques won't work on badass heros :D. Much more simple, as spyhopping says, we just need to make him talk.

The nano augmentations were just as silly in the time frame of DX1. But everyone just accepted it. Atleast no one complained it was unrealistic. People love to point out flaws in others arguments on internet boards but if a smiliar thing is in the game, and they happen to like the game, they will simply accept it.

We already know very interesting things about the human brain and its architecture. I highly recommend you watch this short video - V Ramachandran - a journey to the center of your mind (http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/vilayanur_ramachandran_on_your_mind.html).

If you find that interesting you will find more awesome stuff in his BBC Reith Lecture - http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2003/ (audio and transcript). Its also available as a book.

So he would be my "doc" :D

So how about this? EM should consult some experts who do actual research (bribed with cake?) to help them out with good enough explanations for such technologies.

Yargo
12th Nov 2008, 05:44
You know, there kind of are already people "walking around with body parts actually replaced by machines"...

:D Are you the same skeptic I talked to in the last thread?

Lazarus Ledd
12th Nov 2008, 09:49
I say again the boyz hacked a flash memory inside AJ head and broke into the complex. What AJ didn't have in mind was protecting the implant from the special boyz :mad2:

He feels sorry he didn't wear his Tin Foil hat :D

Yargo
12th Nov 2008, 16:19
Here are some articles on the issue of BCI and other neat stuff

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=jacking-into-the-brain

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=how-self-powered-nanotech-works

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=smart-dna

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/10/17/biocomputer-made-of-rna-understands-boolean-logic/

Some of them are fairly long. Good reading for all who are interested:D

AdamJensen
13th Nov 2008, 07:06
Thanks for those links! The first one gives a nice summary of what is being done today. I had been following most of those except the work on the artificial hippocampus. Very interesting stuff!

Yargo
13th Nov 2008, 19:08
Thanks for those links! The first one gives a nice summary of what is being done today. I had been following most of those except the work on the artificial hippocampus. Very interesting stuff!

No problem. I hope to work in this field so I am always trying to keep up with the current events. :D

Romeo
29th Nov 2008, 01:38
Well, brain-hacking may be possible sooner or later. As well as "mental augmentations", which would be superior to mechanical augmentations, in my opinion. Review: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-computer_interface

Tracer Tong
29th Nov 2008, 08:38
This discussion is useless. IIRC the plans weren't in AJ's head but he planned them himself, by hand... But that's just me.

Don't forget threatening still exists, and guns, and baseball bats.:eek:

Romeo
29th Nov 2008, 08:50
Your face is useless. GO ME! No, brain-hacking would be a cool element to bring up in Deus Ex, and like I just finished saying in my previous post, there's already research into augmenting people using computer-enhancements, connected to the brain, therefore, it's relevant.

Tracer Tong
29th Nov 2008, 09:00
^^
OK. I was just saying that it had nothing to do with the plot of DX3 IMHO.

It'd still be nice to have it, though. :D

AdamJensen
29th Nov 2008, 14:45
True, something like this is not critical for the plot, but more like interesting discussion. In a way it may not related to the specific plot of DX3, but I hope it is in the same transhumanist theme of DX3 hence worth discussing what new tech exists and how it might affect our lives. Although the first few posts in this thread were related to brain hacking in the game, shouldn't there be more threads/discussion like "Transhumanist" which discuss about such themes and what the current progress on related technology is?

GmanPro
29th Nov 2008, 20:06
They can just put in a tidbit of information about it on a datacube. Done.

Tracer Tong
30th Nov 2008, 09:36
They can just put in a tidbit of information about it on a datacube. Done.

How DX-ish of you :rasp:

2^8(=256) posts, yay!

jc_lemon_lime
30th Nov 2008, 09:42
i always found the ubiquity of 'cyber-brains' in Ghost In The Shell to be rediculous. building a working man-made copy of something as complex as the human brain would be astronomicaly expensive and difficult; it certainly wouldn't be impossible, but you would only see them used and worked with in the most elite research labs; not stuffed in the skulls of every tom **** and harry walking down the street.

(besides, where would you put your skul-gun?:D )

AdamJensen
30th Nov 2008, 17:27
Umm a big part of Science Fiction is to ask the question "What if..." and then see how it affects the world. What if no one has ever been able to cross the pacific? The outcome of WW II might have been very different.
What if you put a moderately advanced species on an artifical planet with essentially unlimited resources? The species might start "devolving".

Most good SF ask you to accept a small set of facts and then play within those to show interesting behaviour out if that. They are not predicting what the future is going to be like.

A decade ago no one would have expected a teraflop performance processor in many consumer pcs and now we have it as GPUs.

-|°
30th Nov 2008, 18:14
Being strictly realistic isn't the most important. Getting you into another environment, context may makes you take another look at things. Take GitS for instance, the cybernetization of human beings up to almost every part of the brain isn't there to depict a "realistic" future, but to make us reconsider the human nature, what we're made of and what drives us.
And there's also this "what if" that you are talking about. Exploring new paths like this is enabling that reflexion while being entertaining.


(besides, where would you put your skull-gun? )
Skull-gun huh ? Wouldn't it possible to use some kind of replacement ?
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/1300/nouveauimagebitmapsp8.th.png (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nouveauimagebitmapsp8.png)
:D

Ghostface
30th Nov 2008, 22:43
Dr Rodolfo Llinas explains (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pgmoz4f8LA4)


I have links to more actual scientific projects related to transhumanism if people are interested. This is mostly meant to start discussion of technologies in ghost in the shell and Deus ex.

GmanPro
30th Nov 2008, 22:52
Very interesting. I wonder when it will be ready for testing on humans. Because I would totally volunteer :cool:

Ghostface
30th Nov 2008, 22:58
Me too. These types of developments always fascinate me

jordan_a
30th Nov 2008, 23:07
We had a technology thread right? :confused:

Ghostface
30th Nov 2008, 23:22
We had a technology thread right? :confused:

The purpose of this thread is to discus real-life lab work being done in feilds related to transhumanism

jc_lemon_lime
30th Nov 2008, 23:22
Being strictly realistic isn't the most important. Getting you into another environment, context may makes you take another look at things. Take GitS for instance, the cybernetization of human beings up to almost every part of the brain isn't there to depict a "realistic" future, but to make us reconsider the human nature, what we're made of and what drives us.
And there's also this "what if" that you are talking about. Exploring new paths like this is enabling that reflexion while being entertaining.


Skull-gun huh ? Wouldn't it possible to use some kind of replacement ?
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/1300/nouveauimagebitmapsp8.th.png (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nouveauimagebitmapsp8.png)
:D

that's true; but DX does characterize itself as a grounded or 'hard' work of science fiction, in which the technologies and events are plausable in the given time frame. so i feel it should be held to that standered.

Yargo
30th Nov 2008, 23:23
Yay I got in before the tread was merged :D

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=82314
and...
The DX3-strictly Aug discussion thread that I can't find.

As for my two cents:
I would love any sort of BCI, I have yet to hear this specific idea but I have been citing articles throughout the forum. (too lazy to dig them up again:D ) His idea is pretty cool. Have you heard about the glass and gold implant that sits on the brain and the electrodes plug in to that? I'm a Bio major and I i'm really interested in this field. So you got any other cool stuff please send them my way!

edit:
Ha found it :D
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=80968

Spyhopping
30th Nov 2008, 23:29
At first I felt skeptical about this guy's ideas. Concept sounds incomplete. I hadn't heard his name before but I just checked who he was, and he has pioneered some really important stuff! Some of his findings are the first things I learned about when I started my course. Very respectable chap :D

bye bye thread

Lady_Of_The_Vine
1st Dec 2008, 00:29
The purpose of this thread is to discus real-life lab work being done in feilds related to transhumanism

As you are discussing the brain, rather than general transhumanism, I've merged into existing thread on the same subject. :)

Abram730
1st Dec 2008, 05:17
perhaps the hexagonal chunk missing was because he needed his serial number for the DRM...:lol: JK

Yargo
1st Dec 2008, 05:19
As you are discussing the brain, rather than general transhumanism, I've merged into existing thread on the same subject. :)

I was worried it would get merged with this thread, because this one has taken a not-so serious outlook. Skull guns?:scratch:

Ghostface
1st Dec 2008, 05:45
I was worried it would get merged with this thread, because this one has taken a not-so serious outlook. Skull guns?:scratch:
Yeah man.. This thread shouldn't have been moved. It's just going to cause more confusion.

GmanPro
1st Dec 2008, 05:48
Did you say confusion? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLwrdp8RV5A) :cool:

K^2
1st Dec 2008, 06:05
perhaps the hexagonal chunk missing was because he needed his serial number for the DRM...:lol: JK
When they start putting DRM on wetware, I'm going to quit being human. It wouldn't be worth the trouble.

Yargo
1st Dec 2008, 06:26
Did you say confusion? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLwrdp8RV5A) :cool:

Point proven:rasp:

jc_lemon_lime
2nd Dec 2008, 02:33
When they start putting DRM on wetware, I'm going to quit being human. It wouldn't be worth the trouble.

that is until EA buys out the omar:o

LatwPIAT
2nd Dec 2008, 07:41
i always found the ubiquity of 'cyber-brains' in Ghost In The Shell to be rediculous. building a working man-made copy of something as complex as the human brain would be astronomicaly expensive and difficult; it certainly wouldn't be impossible, but you would only see them used and worked with in the most elite research labs; not stuffed in the skulls of every tom **** and harry walking down the street.

(besides, where would you put your skul-gun?:D )

They're not replicas of brains. They're actual brains, encased in titanium and enchanted with computers. Much cheaper.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
2nd Dec 2008, 21:07
Yeah man.. This thread shouldn't have been moved. It's just going to cause more confusion.

My apologies to anyone who thinks the new discussion about brain implants should not have been merged into the existing thread about the brain.

But at least if we wish to discuss anything relating to brain hacking/implants etc, we all know the conversation is in one thread... so its easy to find and reference. That's less confusing in the long run, surely? :p

Yargo
2nd Dec 2008, 21:23
My apologies to anyone who thinks the new discussion about brain implants should not have been merged into the existing thread about the brain.

But at least if we wish to discuss anything relating to brain hacking/implants etc, we all know the conversation is in one thread... so its easy to find and reference. That's less confusing in the long run, surely? :p

Well the ironic thing is this thread left another to focus on a serious conversation about the brain and was eventually taken over by skull guns. :mad2: Then Ghostface starts a new thread and it gets merged back with this silliness. I'm not complaining, I know these threads are similar and had to be merged or one of them closed. :D

jc_lemon_lime
3rd Dec 2008, 03:40
They're not replicas of brains. They're actual brains, encased in titanium and enchanted with computers. Much cheaper.

i still think it would cost a pretty penny to have your brain surgically removed, spliced with microchips and/or nanomachines, cased in titanium, and put back in your skull; all while your body was kept in cryogenic storage to keep it from dying.

GmanPro
3rd Dec 2008, 05:11
It might be free if you volunteer to be the first man to test it. I'd totally do it, I don't care... Just so long as I get to play DX3 beforehand. :D

Ghostface
5th Dec 2008, 21:18
i still think it would cost a pretty penny to have your brain surgically removed, spliced with microchips and/or nanomachines, cased in titanium, and put back in your skull; all while your body was kept in cryogenic storage to keep it from dying.

Laser scalpels(already invented) would make the operation easier

Ghostface
5th Dec 2008, 21:22
Cool vid of the laser scalpel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxLUtK_b9KU

Ghostface
5th Dec 2008, 22:05
Real life star trek lasers will now also put you back together

http://www.livescience.com/health/081122-laser-surgery.html

K^2
5th Dec 2008, 23:27
Laser scalpels have been used for all kinds of surgeries for at least a decade. They make certain surgeries easier, but they aren't the solution that makes every operation a snap.

Keeping the body from dying in the process isn't as difficult as you might think, though. Pretty much, the only two functions that your body really needs the brain for to stay alive is breathing and heart beat. Heart can be artificially stimulated with a pace maker. Breathing machines exist for comma victims for a long time already. So a body can be kept in perfect form while brain is out.

The part that we don't have a clue is how to re-attach a brain to the body. There are so many neurons that need to be re-connected. And even a tiny mistake would mean that person would have to re-learn how to walk and talk.

jc_lemon_lime
6th Dec 2008, 03:16
^ i stated in an earlier post that i didn't think it would be impossible for a person's brain to be 'cyberized'; just that the extreme risk and expense of such an operation would keep it from being common place in the foreseeable future

K^2
6th Dec 2008, 18:01
It all depends. We might get quantum gates built soon. The basic technology is there, we just need to figure out nano and quantum engineering behind them. Then entire procedure can then be done virtually.

Of course, once we build quantum gates, the world will be a very different place. Global travel in seconds. Physical objects getting copied left and right. Biological immortality, perhaps. Crazy world.

jc_lemon_lime
7th Dec 2008, 00:24
a very, very diffrent one too

Romeo
8th Dec 2008, 02:40
It all depends. We might get quantum gates built soon. The basic technology is there, we just need to figure out nano and quantum engineering behind them. Then entire procedure can then be done virtually.

Of course, once we build quantum gates, the world will be a very different place. Global travel in seconds. Physical objects getting copied left and right. Biological immortality, perhaps. Crazy world.
Biological immortality defies the basic laws of the universe though. Eventually all matter will be converted into unharnessable energy. =(

Yargo
8th Dec 2008, 03:48
Biological immortality defies the basic laws of the universe though. Eventually all matter will be converted into unharnessable energy. =(

A law that was written by humanity. :whistle:

K^2
8th Dec 2008, 05:15
Biological immortality defies the basic laws of the universe though. Eventually all matter will be converted into unharnessable energy. =(
Biologic Immortality simply means no death by natural causes. Biologically Immortal person does not age and does suffer from age-related illnesses and most diseases. Such person can still be killed by a number of things. Biologic Immortality does not violate any principals of biology, let alone laws of physics.

By the way, you grossly misunderstand the Second Law of Thermodynamics. That doesn't change the fact, however, that every conscious being* will either perish or meet thermal death.

* Consciousness isn't necessary here, but every conscious being meets necessary criteria, so it saves me time to put it like that rather than get into details.

jc_lemon_lime
11th Dec 2008, 06:15
Biological immortality defies the basic laws of the universe though. Eventually all matter will be converted into unharnessable energy. =(

true enough, but that day is still trillions of years in the futrue.

K^2
11th Dec 2008, 06:29
true enough, but that day is still trillions of years in the futrue.
If you are going to make up a number, make up the name for it too. Something like "gazillions of years" would work much better in this sentence.

Abram730
30th Dec 2008, 12:41
Welcome to the future.

A new device for computers that will read your mind, so you can control a game with your thoughts.

Tan Le Brings the Force to Life with Mind Control Device
http://fora.tv/2008/12/12/Tan_Le_Brings_the_Force_to_Life_with_Mind_Control_Device

K^2
30th Dec 2008, 13:05
Nothing new here. They've had prototypes for about a decade now. But this doesn't put us anywhere closer to reading thoughts. It is one thing to create a new form of interface, and expect the brain to learn how to use it. That's what it is built. And it is another all together to try to scan the activity of the entire brain and use it to reconstruct thoughts. There is no computer power for that, and there won't be any time soon.

Ghostface
31st Dec 2008, 01:49
The most revolutionary thing about Emotiv is that they are bringing it to the consumer-level

Once brain-machine interface tech becomes mass-produced it will advance much faster.

K^2
31st Dec 2008, 09:08
They already have one or two systems like that for sale. Somewhat simpler, but nevertheless. I've been looking at one a couple of months ago. It still requires you to use a mouse for an FPS, but it takes over movement (including strafing) and firing. So as I said, nothing new here.

And it will, indeed push technology further, but for reading thoughts, this particular technology is a dead end. It's good at what it does, which is interfacing human and machine. I'm sure we'll see new revolutionary prosthetics, new ways to control vehicles, and other applications that are actually useful. Personally, I'd like to have an extra pair of arms some times. With this tech, I'm sure I'll be able to buy a mechanical harness with extra hands some time during next decade.

It will also let us understand functions of different areas of the brain a little better. That is a step in the right direction, but a rather small one. What we really need is a system that allows scanning activity of any particular neuron within the brain. There is currently no technology that can even be developed to do that. fMRI lacks resolution. Increasing mag field of MRI to increase resolution causes problems with diamagnetic properties of human flesh. For EM scan, we have no electronics capable of reaching needed frequencies of data analysis. XRay is out. There is some promise with using beta-decay and coincidence counters, (e.g. PET) but we only know how to scan a layer at a time with that stuff.

And even once we have capability to do that, as I said, this is an incredibly complex computational problem. Brain wave scanners are fun toys, but they aren't getting us closer to reading people's minds. That's just something you'll have to accept.

Ghostface
31st Dec 2008, 21:26
Invasive implants are required for that level of detail. Invasive implants can, however, be implanted in a human without ever opening the skull. We have the in development technology to activate very specific parts of the brain. Rudolfo Linas solved the problem with using bundles of nanowires through ventricles and and capillaries (the earlier youtube video I posted in this thread). This will give you both read and write functions in interacting with the brain.


As for non-invasive man machine-interface. Emotiv is quite good for a consumer level device. Even though it's read-only and is more of a pattern matching device than something that reads brain signals precisely. If you want a simple level of actually putting somethin IN the brain non-invasively, you would go for low power ultrasoud waves; a technology Sony is interested in for gaming.

K^2
1st Jan 2009, 02:13
Invasive implants could be used to read visual memory, but that's about it. For just about everything else, you'd have to cover pretty much entire surface with electrodes. This is a bit way too advanced right now. Maybe in 50 years if we all don't nuke each other first.

Ghostface
2nd Jan 2009, 04:55
Invasive implants could be used to read visual memory, but that's about it. For just about everything else, you'd have to cover pretty much entire surface with electrodes. This is a bit way too advanced right now. Maybe in 50 years if we all don't nuke each other first.

LOL 50 years? Much sooner then that actually. And covering the surface of the brain with electrodes is already outdated. Nanowires can do the trick much better. Try 20 years or less if we done nuke each other first. ;)

Dr Rodolfo Llinas explains (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pgmoz4f8LA4)

K^2
2nd Jan 2009, 09:03
There are 100 Billion neurons in the brain. You are suggesting that within 20 years we'll have technology to produce packages of 100 billion addressable nano-wires that can burrow through skull's micro-pores, locate unique target neurons, map out the neuron-neuron connectivity, and be ready to read/write data?

There might be prototypes by then, built as parts of some huge government projects to research human brain, and then installed by teams of neuro-surgeons who carefully examine different areas and cover brain millimeter by millimeter. But that isn't the same thing as mass producing them to be installed autonomously into the head of an arbitrary person. That's just not going to happen in 20 years.

Keep in mind that right now, we don't have nanorobots at all. We are incapable of building nanomachinery beyond an assembly of a few nano-gears. It took humanity hundreds of years to go from gears to robots. You expect the same to happen on nanoscale in just 20? Sure, some of the progress is faster now. But it is hindered by the fact that quantum mechanics plays a big role in nanomachines, and that's not your Newtonian Mechanics that we had to deal with when building macroscopic machinery.

And you will need an fully functional nanorobot at the tip of each nanowire if you hope for these to reach target neurons and attach to them.

You might try carpet-bombing technique, where bundles of nanowires just attach to everything on the surface, but you are going to miss a big fraction of neurons that are sitting just bellow the surface. It will also require you to go to many trillions of wires, and mapping these out will be a *****. Even with Moor's law, we won't be able to even address that quantity of wires in 20 years without an extensive network of supercomputers.

Ghostface
2nd Jan 2009, 20:16
There are 100 Billion neurons in the brain. You are suggesting that within 20 years we'll have technology to produce packages of 100 billion addressable nano-wires that can burrow through skull's micro-pores, locate unique target neurons, map out the neuron-neuron connectivity, and be ready to read/write data?

You made some great points here and you're correct that we wont have the technology mass-produced to measure each neuron in the brain in 20 years. I was a little quick with my response so I should have been more clear with what I meant. I mostly had this statment in mind:


Invasive implants could be used to read visual memory, but that's about it. For just about everything else, you'd have to cover pretty much entire surface with electrodes. This is a bit way too advanced right now. Maybe in 50 years if we all don't nuke each other first.

I think with the nanowire method, we will be able to do alot in 20-30 years time. Not neuron-by-neuron precise but building a bionic eyes, ears and limbs with realistic feedback is well within reach. It might be possible to interface with a virtual world( though not as detailed as the physical world) through neuron manipulation and I do think it would be possible to download basic textual and simple visual information into the brain. Thinking words to each other will be possible(and has already been done to some extent).



You might try carpet-bombing technique, where bundles of nanowires just attach to everything on the surface, but you are going to miss a big fraction of neurons that are sitting just bellow the surface. It will also require you to go to many trillions of wires, and mapping these out will be a *****. Even with Moor's law, we won't be able to even address that quantity of wires in 20 years without an extensive network of supercomputers.

I had the carpet bombing thing in mind. If I understand correctly; the nanowires would interface with more than just the surface of the brain, but also inside the surface. Moore's law will likely reach it's physical limits by the decade of the 2020's by that time other technologies will hit the market. Parallel processing will aslo make interfacing specific parts of the brain easier, and make the uniqueness of individual brains less of a factor. I dont think we'll be able to interact with every single neuron by that time, but I really think we'll have some usefull aplications using nanowires.

Ghostface
2nd Jan 2009, 20:33
Edit: Double post

Spyhopping
2nd Jan 2009, 21:19
^(for future reference) I think you can delete posts if you end up doing a double post. On the edit screen :)

Neuroscience is a discipline still in its youth- knowledge of brain structure is pretty patchy. But then as DX3 is set in some sort of technological revolution, progress in young sciences would be accelerated, so the possibilities could be well beyond what you expect when using todays rates as standard

Romeo
2nd Jan 2009, 22:35
A law that was written by humanity. :whistle:
Hey we humans are pretty damned smart. Look at whoever made the Ford 5.0L V8. That thing is directly responsible for the invention of computers, inventing cows and curing kidneyism.

Biologic Immortality simply means no death by natural causes. Biologically Immortal person does not age and does suffer from age-related illnesses and most diseases. Such person can still be killed by a number of things. Biologic Immortality does not violate any principals of biology, let alone laws of physics.

By the way, you grossly misunderstand the Second Law of Thermodynamics. That doesn't change the fact, however, that every conscious being* will either perish or meet thermal death.

* Consciousness isn't necessary here, but every conscious being meets necessary criteria, so it saves me time to put it like that rather than get into details.
I should I didn't misunderstand that grossly, K^2, seeing as how one of the few reasons I passed out of highschool was because I aced a handful of tests at the last possible moment, one of which was, as you might have already guessed, the test on the Laws of Thermodynamics. And that was only... Oh, six months ago-ish? I would hope my mind isn't in such a state that it's deteriorating so rapidly I've forgotten one of the basic principles needed to pass that course.

If you are going to make up a number, make up the name for it too. Something like "gazillions of years" would work much better in this sentence.
However I will forgive your previous comment because this one is so amazing in every way. =D

K^2
2nd Jan 2009, 23:40
@Ghostface, I think we are in accord.

@Romeo, just because you got an A on the test, doesn't mean you know anything about entropy. What would you say if I tell you that Second Law, as stated, violates principles of Quantum Mechanics? It is easy to show that QM Entropy is conserved, so it cannot be increasing now, can it?

In order to understand Entropy properly, you need to understand what's happening to it in Many-World environment, and how that is responsible for the arrow of time.

Saying that entropy always increases is about the same as saying that wind blows because the leaves on the trees move. That's where you misunderstand it. Second Law is flawed in many ways, but it works to predict dynamics of certain systems, and that's why we keep using it. It's a lot like Newton's Laws. We know they don't work, but we know where they fail, and if we avoid these situations, we can use them to simplify certain problems.

When you say that a certain heat engine won't work because it violates the Second Law, you are using it right. When you say that the universe is approaching a cold death because of the Second Law, you are using it wrong.

Yargo
3rd Jan 2009, 21:59
There are 100 Billion neurons in the brain. You are suggesting that within 20 years we'll have technology to produce packages of 100 billion addressable nano-wires that can burrow through skull's micro-pores, locate unique target neurons, map out the neuron-neuron connectivity, and be ready to read/write data?

There might be prototypes by then, built as parts of some huge government projects to research human brain, and then installed by teams of neuro-surgeons who carefully examine different areas and cover brain millimeter by millimeter. But that isn't the same thing as mass producing them to be installed autonomously into the head of an arbitrary person. That's just not going to happen in 20 years.

Keep in mind that right now, we don't have nanorobots at all. We are incapable of building nanomachinery beyond an assembly of a few nano-gears. It took humanity hundreds of years to go from gears to robots. You expect the same to happen on nanoscale in just 20? Sure, some of the progress is faster now. But it is hindered by the fact that quantum mechanics plays a big role in nanomachines, and that's not your Newtonian Mechanics that we had to deal with when building macroscopic machinery.

And you will need an fully functional nanorobot at the tip of each nanowire if you hope for these to reach target neurons and attach to them.

You might try carpet-bombing technique, where bundles of nanowires just attach to everything on the surface, but you are going to miss a big fraction of neurons that are sitting just bellow the surface. It will also require you to go to many trillions of wires, and mapping these out will be a *****. Even with Moor's law, we won't be able to even address that quantity of wires in 20 years without an extensive network of supercomputers.

I'm Thinking there will be a more targeted approach. We already have a general sense of what different areas of the brain do. I think there will be different implants for different purposes such as; vision, movement, storage, etc. I highly doubt there will be any massive "do-all" implant even in 50 years.

As for nano-wires/tech thats only one way of doing things. I have shared several articles on the forum before and I will try to dig them up for you guys.

@Romeo: Humans are smart but far from omniscient. We have been known to be wrong.

K^2
3rd Jan 2009, 23:02
Yeah, we'll start doing some implants very soon. As I mentioned, vision is relatively easy to decode. It tends to be mapped out mostly in the same order as the receptors on retina are. A lot of other interfaces can be added because brain can learn to communicate with them. We can use that to create additional storage, add comm-link-like systems, etc.

Problem is, none of these let you read the thoughts and memories. We will learn to listen in on the voice-over type thoughts, but a person who is hiding something can learn not to bring these kinds of thoughts to the surface. The only way to get to information that someone remembers but doesn't think about is to break the entire storage algorithm, and that's incredibly complex even if you did manage to map out the entire brain.

GmanPro
3rd Jan 2009, 23:07
Sounds like fun...

Ghostface
4th Jan 2009, 01:23
Part of me hopes it's never possible to read thoughts

Though I dont mind memory recording and downloading or voice-over type thoughs

Ghostface
4th Jan 2009, 01:26
nanoaugmented reflexes now proven possible

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=212700093

Spyhopping
4th Jan 2009, 01:55
^ It wouldn't be as easy as just conducting a signal- if carbon nanotubes were to ever function in the same way as neuron structures, wouldn't they need to either secrete neurotransmitters or be able to respond to them? Surely they would also need some kind of intervaled myelin sheath type insulator so wires don't get crossed

Romeo
4th Jan 2009, 06:02
@Ghostface, I think we are in accord.

@Romeo, just because you got an A on the test, doesn't mean you know anything about entropy. What would you say if I tell you that Second Law, as stated, violates principles of Quantum Mechanics? It is easy to show that QM Entropy is conserved, so it cannot be increasing now, can it?

In order to understand Entropy properly, you need to understand what's happening to it in Many-World environment, and how that is responsible for the arrow of time.

Saying that entropy always increases is about the same as saying that wind blows because the leaves on the trees move. That's where you misunderstand it. Second Law is flawed in many ways, but it works to predict dynamics of certain systems, and that's why we keep using it. It's a lot like Newton's Laws. We know they don't work, but we know where they fail, and if we avoid these situations, we can use them to simplify certain problems.

When you say that a certain heat engine won't work because it violates the Second Law, you are using it right. When you say that the universe is approaching a cold death because of the Second Law, you are using it wrong.
So what you're trying to tell me, is that despite every machine ever made not having 100% effeciency, somehow we arn't losing matter to energy? On top of the fact I've always, always been taught otherwise, that basic principle to me seems wrong. I wouldn't mind a little further explanation on your part. lol

Abram730
7th Jan 2009, 10:14
MRI mind reading.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JBHYmfcksg

K^2
7th Jan 2009, 14:23
So what you're trying to tell me, is that despite every machine ever made not having 100% effeciency, somehow we arn't losing matter to energy? On top of the fact I've always, always been taught otherwise, that basic principle to me seems wrong. I wouldn't mind a little further explanation on your part. lol
First of all, you couldn't lose matter to energy if you tried. They are the same thing. Distinction only makes sense in a classical approximations, and it is a nature of approximations to be approximate.

What seems to be the biggest part of your confusion, though, is that you seem to have only a vague idea of what time is. Don't worry, that's true of most people. Lets try to rectify that to some extent.

Since you started talking about machines, lets take a gasoline engine, put it in a room, and start it up. Let it run for a while. Chemical energy is being converted into mechanical and thermal. Thermal energy is lost "irreversibly". That's classical thermodynamics.

Now, let us remember that thermodynamics is the result of statistical mechanics, which just describes average behavior of a system of a very big number of particles. So lets drop the average bit. Lets work with all the particles in the system. And now let us reverse motion of each and every one of them. What will happen? Exhaust gases will flow back into the engine, recombine into gasoline, and absorb just enough energy from pistons to take mechanical energy back.

There are actual physical system where something like this can actually be done. Think about it for a moment.

But then why is the entropy so persistent at trying to increase? Because we are ignoring the walls of the room. If I reverse the direction of motion of every particle in the room, the particles of the walls aren't going to be in the same places when particles from the room strike them. That will eventually break the perfect reversal. How do we fix that? Reverse all the particles in the universe. Practically unachievable, but lets look at it as a thought experiment. But what happens now? Every observer that might have been interested in watching the engine is also running backwards now. For that observer, states with higher entropy are still future, and ones with lower the past.

What it really comes down to is that there are two concepts of time to be considered (there are three actually, but lets not bring space-time into this). First, is the parameter. The 't' you put into equations. There is no difference between forward and backward. You can reverse the entire dynamic, substitute '-t' and go along with it. Nothing changes. All that really matters are the differentials with respect to that t. The other concept is of time as a sequence of events. And it is this concept that is tied into the entropy.

Lets consider an observer. Take all possible snapshots of that observer. Look at the memory. If at snapshot 1) observer knows A and B, then at 2) A, B, and C, and at 3) A, B, C, and D, then clearly, 1 came before 2, which came before 3. Note that an observer does not have to be conscious, nor even alive in any way. A machine will do, as long as it can store information. Even our Moon can be considered an observer that keeps track of time by recording asteroid impact events. Note also that there can be multiple observers, and they don't have to agree on sequence of events. It's called time travel, and we don't know how to achieve it quite yet. Nothing forbids it, though, and a few loopholes in quantum mechanics might allow it a bit sooner than you'd even think possible.

Final note on the above is that storage of information requires an increase in entropy. I hope that this is at least intuitively self evident. I can give you examples if it isn't clear. This automatically leads to the fact that entropy is higher in the "future".

And now we get to the main point. First thing I told you is that entropy doesn't change. Now I tell you it needs to increase. A seeming contradiction that has actually driven at least one prominent physicist to insanity, and I'm sure has come close for many others. Solution to this problem is rather recent. Entropy needs to be conserved in the system as a whole. Id est, entropy of the whole universe has to be fixed. But that's what is really interesting about the observable universe. It is not the whole thing. It is merely a projection of the entire wave function onto a basis associated with the observer looking at it. Entropies of different projections do not have to be the same. And as the observer evolves, so does the projection. This results in the entropy of the observable universe being a variable. All that's left is putting a sequence of events back in. Observer interacts with the universe to make an observation. Interaction results in a number of past and future states for the observer. Future states have higher entropy. Past states lower.

This all goes back to what I was saying in the first post on the topic. For any conscious being (as one of these would have to be an observer) time will eventually run out. There is a definite maximum entropy for any finite verse, and this one is almost certainly such. But there is no end of times for the universe itself, because on the scale of the universe, all pasts and presents co-exist simultaneously, and entropy is a fixed quantity. Time itself is just a dimension and no further discussion of it is necessary.

Sorry about a wall of text, but this is a complex topic. Hope some of it clears things up.

iWait
11th Jan 2009, 06:23
I love you

K^2
11th Jan 2009, 10:10
I really hope it's Platonic.

Lilith
11th Jan 2009, 18:29
Rawr, so much text I tried to read it all I really did.

Brain hacking?

Well, here is something a theme kinda present in Deus Ex sorta, more because of theme set.

Man as machine (Duh), but more detailed, the mind as a machine.

There exist a LOT of consipary theories around about how we are really machines thanks to the level of closeness of a machine and a mind. Not to be a total jerk/party pooper.

Brain before machine.

Ok, we designed machine, what do we base it off? Whats the most complex thing we have basic ideas about how it works. Enough that we can reason about it. Oh, I know. Our brain.

We're making something to do something, lets base it off that!

Now here is where I go crackpot.

Reverse engineering. Not the Sci-Fi aliens stuff, but machines. A lot in DX1 was about experimental growth in these industries. Lots of money. (ref "another 50 billion down the drain" [Simons I beleive?]) All that, genetic coding and compatibility. We got a lot of the end result in DX1 actually, with engineering the body to take stuff JC had.

But, this is before DX1. So we'd see the start of these kind of projects. The basics of this being. Reverse engineering the brain from a higher point then originally. Take transformers, super robot -> Mobile phone.

Brain -> Computer the size of a room -> etcetecettcetecetetctee -> iPod Touch or whatever.

Go deeper into that reverse engineering, it'd be an interesting explanation angle for some of the stuff I'm sure they've come up with.

K^2
11th Jan 2009, 19:19
You can reverse engineer the brain as much as you want, but it doesn't let you hack into one.

Let me give you an example. We have now a lot of different encryption algorithm. If you see a program that encrypts/decrypts messages, you can reverse engineer it to get an algorithm out of it. Then, you can make up a pass phrase and use that algorithm to encode some messages.

But even knowing the algorithm, you cannot decode a message without a pass phrase. Similar thing with a brain. Fine, you reverse engineer it. Fine, you figure out all the algorithms behind the operation of the brain. Maybe you even build your own artificial brains. But it doesn't let you retrieve the information within anymore than knowing the algorithm lets you break the cypher.

You will need a computer by far more advanced than a human brain to even have a chance of getting some of the information out. Not going to happen any time soon.

Lilith
11th Jan 2009, 19:32
You can reverse engineer the brain as much as you want, but it doesn't let you hack into one.

Let me give you an example. We have now a lot of different encryption algorithm. If you see a program that encrypts/decrypts messages, you can reverse engineer it to get an algorithm out of it. Then, you can make up a pass phrase and use that algorithm to encode some messages.

But even knowing the algorithm, you cannot decode a message without a pass phrase. Similar thing with a brain. Fine, you reverse engineer it. Fine, you figure out all the algorithms behind the operation of the brain. Maybe you even build your own artificial brains. But it doesn't let you retrieve the information within anymore than knowing the algorithm lets you break the cypher.

You will need a computer by far more advanced than a human brain to even have a chance of getting some of the information out. Not going to happen any time soon.

I think, when you talk about hacking a brain. You're not really looking into a tool that does it straight out.

By reverse engineering a brain, I don't mean so much taking technological steps back. But rather breaking the brain down, into things like functions and reactions. Playing off subtle character existences. As a game play mechanic such a thing to be honest is utterly useless without feeling cheap. Remember before Deus Ex 1, so no (sadly perhaps :P) Ghost in the Shell type brain dives. Cause digitization of the brain doesn't exist per-say in DX:IW really.

That said the kind if reverse engineering I'm taking about is twofold. Technological advances for warfare i.e pysc bombs nothing super sci-fi, just a bomb that makes a very loud noise to a specific level of sound that you could engineer out of someone. So say you have a pressure point, you apply a bunch of pressure, it hurts. Remove the pressure point on one of two people in the room, and have a device that applies pressure deeply to both of them. That an example that we might see.

The other is understanding of the mechanics of HOW the brain processes thought more deeply and basically mindf--ing someone into giving up secrets using control of senses.

Perhaps something like that could be created as a game play function, but to be honest I'm not sure such a level of technology will exist within anyone in the game in order to turn it against them.

In the sense of a standard hack, what you're hacking has to be a external/internal (0/1) system with live or local feed and to be bound by set rules, so you can break the rules and obtained stored data. The exact details of how data is stored in the brain and how it is protected isn't understood properly.

As for live feed?

Actually, I just had breakthrough moment. The comm system in Deus Ex 1, I think. You could without making it cheap justify having it as a way to brain hack. i.e why its stripped down in DX1.

Have the incidents of brain hacking in game be the reason its phased out/stripped down later.

And as a game play mechanic, the interesting theory stuff before you can dump and just listen to radio chatter to gain an upper hand. What do you think?

qJohnnyp
11th Jan 2009, 20:51
Brain hacking could be a fun game mechanic. I liked using bots to fight enemies in Invisible War. Add hacking people and it could be a very fun experience, using them for taking out other enemies and as scouts! Though it shouldn't be as easy as hacking bots was. In Ghost In The Shell Game, it required you acquiring a hacking key from a commander class enemy. I'd love to see that in Deus Ex ;) though I could stick to only hacking bots.

Lilith
11th Jan 2009, 21:06
Brain hacking could be a fun game mechanic. I liked using bots to fight enemies in Invisible War. Add hacking people and it could be a very fun experience, using them for taking out other enemies and as scouts! Though it shouldn't be as easy as hacking bots was. In Ghost In The Shell Game, it required you acquiring a hacking key from a commander class enemy. I'd love to see that in Deus Ex ;) though I could stick to only hacking bots.

Never played the ghost in the shell game, I was speaking from the stand alone complex / movies

Control over NPCs is a big, fat, no.

That level of control shouldn't exist, because there should simply not be the hardware for it.

If there was, the amount of technology suppression bull**** would surpass hideoing levels and its feel, well, cheesy and lame.

qJohnnyp
11th Jan 2009, 22:23
Never played the ghost in the shell game, I was speaking from the stand alone complex / movies
Actually, characters without full brain cyborgisation could be hacked in GitS. Remember that poor trash collector guy in the Mamuro Oshii movie? But that's GitS...


Control over NPCs is a big, fat, no.
Control over bots is fun (and I hope for it to return) and if control over NPC would be hard (as in our puppet struggling to regain control over themselves, hacking keys to even try hacking someone, a time limit and the the requirement of the NPC being augmented- which would exclude quite a large portion of them), it could be much fun. There was a thread about changing outfits- I think hacking an enemies brain and using him for reconnaissance is a better option compared to changing outfits.


That level of control shouldn't exist, because there should simply not be the hardware for it.
If the NPC would have augs and some kind of communication link that could be intercepted (or physical jacks such as Bob Page's), and you have aqquired an encryption key- you could hack into his hardware- boards controling all his augmentations (vision augmentation, artificial limbs).
You couldn't change his memories and alter his brain in any way, as there is no technology for full brain cyborgisation, but the mechanical parts of his body could be controlled or intercepted. His eyes or ears could be used for scouting (and he'd be unaware of this) and if it's possible and if the player chooses to- his limbs could be controlled.
Depending on the level of his augmentation and PC's skills, you'd just be able to make him shoot everyone in sight or walk him into an area that you haven't yet discovered. After the hack, he'd either alert other npcs or die- again depending on his augmentation level/players skill (or you could make him jump to his death or shoot himself).
It would be a rare occasion, just as finding a large bot and hacking it was in IW. But if it appeared, would be rewarding for the player and immersive.

(Ain't exactly 'brain' hacking but the closest term I know for this)


If there was, the amount of technology suppression bull**** would surpass hideoing levels and its feel, well, cheesy and lame.
I hope that my thoughts could make you a bit more optimistic about the idea.

Still, we all must remember, it's all just fun, harmless speculation. If it doesn't appearin DX3, I wouldn't be surprised.

Lilith
11th Jan 2009, 22:49
I gotta be honest, I hope it doesn't.

I don't want this to fall into a hole of being more technologically advanced then DX1 / IW. Prettier I get, and like. But Deus Ex is a broken world in 2052, but not a technologically dark aged one.

qJohnnyp
11th Jan 2009, 23:03
I gotta be honest, I hope it doesn't.

I don't want this to fall into a hole of being more technologically advanced then DX1 / IW. Prettier I get, and like. But Deus Ex is a broken world in 2052, but not a technologically dark aged one.

Well, there weren't many mech augs in DX1, except for Gunther, Anna and Jordan and it seems that Eidos will add more of them in Dx3. If means of hacking them haven't been mentioned or haven't appeared in DX and IW, doesn't mean that they haven't existed. Seems more that they got outdated, just like mechanical augmentations. A mech aug is a human with robotic parts. You could hack robots, why not be able to hack robotic parts of the NPCs?
It could be explained.
As a gameplay mechanic- it is Eidos' choice to add it or not. They may have not even considered it. I personally hope they did. After all, you will have a choice not to use it.

K^2
12th Jan 2009, 03:50
The other is understanding of the mechanics of HOW the brain processes thought more deeply and basically mindf--ing someone into giving up secrets using control of senses.
We already have that. Trained agents can use a number of substances such as Sodium Pentothal to interrogate the subject. The main drug is usually used to inhibit the person so that their impulse controls are shot. That results in them saying pretty much whatever they are thinking. The rest is about getting them to think about what they know. Mild hallucinogens with some hypnotic techniques can be used to make the person think that they need the information. The main difficulty is telling memories from straight up hallucinations.

The problem is that a trained agent can withstand such interrogation without giving up secrets, because he can force self to believe his cover on a sufficiently deep level. Such things don't show up on lie detector or chemical interrogation.

This is about as far as you can push the brain to betray itself. Knowing architecture of the brain would have very little impact on this.

cjc813
12th Jan 2009, 21:13
When I look at that pic, know what I see?

Light cigarettes.

Most light cigarettes have a white filter where as full flavored cigarettes typically have yellowish-brown filter paper.

What kinda ***** (rhymes w/ 'wussy') ass hero smokes lights?

I mean... I do... but I ain't a hero. :lol:

qJohnnyp
12th Jan 2009, 21:31
Light cigarettes.



My world crumbled down

cjc813
12th Jan 2009, 21:54
My world crumbled down
I know, right?

I mean, streamlined health system I can live with.

But... but... NOT LIGHT CIGARETTES! :eek:

Wait a minute, why isn't someone with naturally recharching health smoking full-flavored ciggs? I mean... all the cancer will just be healed away Halo-style anyway!:rasp:

Kids these days got it easy. Back in my day, if you wanted to cure lung damage from smoke inhalation you had to eat soy and drink beer. :lol:

EDIT
Sorry, I'll stop derailing your thread now. :p

Popp
25th Jan 2009, 01:59
I read a poll last year in a magazine somewhere(anyone ?) asking people if they would be willing to give up some of their memories to slice a small piece of your brain to make foom for an implant/computer that will allow you to remotely access facebook/google(and I forget the other sites listed) from YOUR BRAIN!!!

Sorry for the run-on sentence.
But I assume you would see the browser through your own eyes, or, what, will it have low opacity, like the Aero in Vista?

Oh, and the results were in favour of no. What say you?

LatwPIAT
25th Jan 2009, 12:27
I read a poll last year in a magazine somewhere(anyone ?) asking people if they would be willing to give up some of their memories to slice a small piece of your brain to make foom for an implant/computer that will allow you to remotely access facebook/google(and I forget the other sites listed) from YOUR BRAIN!!!

Sorry for the run-on sentence.
But I assume you would see the browser through your own eyes, or, what, will it have low opacity, like the Aero in Vista?

Oh, and the results were in favour of no. What say you?

Why do that? The brain is perfectly cappable of being given extra output with a little learning, and the eye can accept any input you give it, so instead of overlapping your vision, just add a sidebar outside your vision that has the browser in it. No need for sacrifices in any way, just add more inputs and outputs.

Ghostface
25th Feb 2009, 08:02
Once the electrodes are implanted, clinicians can control how electrical pulses are delivered to the brain using a battery-run, pacemaker-like device outside the body. By trial and error, doctors figure out what patterns of electrical activity are most likely to help patients while producing the fewest side effects.

Just to show for those that doubt; cyberpunk is REAL, not just some nerd fantasy.

source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/23/AR2009022301809.html

rokstrombo
25th Feb 2009, 09:59
I think this technology has potential for treating certain neurological diseases, but I don't think it is particularly related to cyberpunk (unless Adam Jensen's mechanical augmentations happen to trigger Parkinson's Disease!).

Lady_Of_The_Vine
25th Feb 2009, 11:01
Just to show for those that doubt; cyberpunk is REAL, not just some nerd fantasy.
source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/23/AR2009022301809.html

Merged your post with existing thread on this topic. :)

Ghostface
25th Feb 2009, 19:38
I think this technology has potential for treating certain neurological diseases, but I don't think it is particularly related to cyberpunk (unless Adam Jensen's mechanical augmentations happen to trigger Parkinson's Disease!).

lol my main point was that neurosciences and brain-implant technologies are advancing more quickly than most people realize. And yes i do think this is great for treating neurological diseases.

Spyhopping
25th Feb 2009, 20:22
lol my main point was that neurosciences and brain-implant technologies are advancing more quickly than most people realize. And yes i do think this is great for treating neurological diseases.

Neuroscience is all great and dandy on its own, but if you want to link the brain with cognition (i.e brain implant technologies and cognitive neuroscience) we still have a loooong way to go.

K^2
25th Feb 2009, 23:42
Precisely. Our method of messing with brain's functions are roughly equivalent to some people knowing where to hit their TV to make the static go away. We don't have a clue how to fix it properly yet, let alone add new functionality to it.

Ghostface
26th Feb 2009, 03:21
have you heard of Jose Delgado? His experiments were done in the 60's.

And yes I agree that we have much more to learn about the brain, but any step forward is a good thing.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
9th Mar 2009, 09:39
Brain research will always be studied and every day there is one step forward, for sure. :)

René
9th Mar 2009, 13:54
The DX3 team has been working with a specialist in the field of neural sciences to ensure our augmentations are scientifically feasible. I can't say who the specialist(s) is(are) but enjoy this little teaser! :whistle:

Lady_Of_The_Vine
9th Mar 2009, 14:34
The DX3 team has been working with a specialist in the field of neural sciences to ensure our augmentations are scientifically feasible. I can't say who the specialist(s) is(are) but enjoy this little teaser! :whistle:

Thank you! :cool: :cool:

Now for some healthy speculation as to who that 'specialist(s)' might be/are... anyone? :D

Necros
12th Mar 2009, 16:24
:eek: Really? That's awesome. :cool: Good to know you care about the game enough to do this. :thumb:

SageSavage
12th Mar 2009, 17:48
I hope it's not Ray Kurzweil... He has interesting ideas but he's naive (unrealistic).

GmanPro
18th Mar 2009, 16:39
An update on fMRI brain scanning :cool: . This stuff sounds pretty cool

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/mar/12/mind-reading-brain-scans-memories


Demis Hassabis, who co-authored the study in the journal Current Biology, said: "The current techniques are a long way away from being able to do those kinds of things, though in the future maybe that will become more possible. Maybe we're about 10 years away from doing that."

This part jumped out at me. So what about 20 years then (DX3 time)? "Brain hacking" could very well be a possibility.

K^2
18th Mar 2009, 16:47
Having studied and worked with MRI, I can tell you that the resolution is fundamentally too low. There are bandwidth limitations as well. The bandwidth depends on frequency, frequency depends on strength of magnetic field, and magnetic field is limited by the diamagnetic properties of human flesh. So fMRI will never be able to scan on the level of individual neurons.

GmanPro
18th Mar 2009, 16:49
Maybe not, but the concept is solid. MRI machines were designed to spot large and obvious obstructions like tumors, so I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for people to create a different machine with the sole purpose of taking high resolution scans of the brain.

K^2
18th Mar 2009, 16:54
If it wasn't too hard, they'd certainly make one already. But yes, people are trying, and maybe they'll think of something.

MRI, by the way, stems from NMR spectroscopy, which was invented for a completely different purpose. It's just that someone figured out that if you apply gradients, you can map out the physical locations of the sources.

Edit: Interesting bit which you might not be aware of. MRI is actually NMRI - Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Imaging. They dropped the word Nuclear because it scared the patients. It has nothing to do with radiation-type nuclear stuff, though, so there is no need to be alarmed. But you know, people get scared easily.

Irate_Iguana
18th Mar 2009, 21:07
If it wasn't too hard, they'd certainly make one already. But yes, people are trying, and maybe they'll think of something.

The biggest problem is that people need to be able to enter the MRI. That is what is holding the tech back at the moment. We can't pulp people, dissolve them and them spin them around. It would greatly help with resolution though.

GmanPro
18th Mar 2009, 21:10
It just seems like the MRI was not designed with high resolution brain scanning technology in mind, so if a team of experts started from the ground up with this intention then maybe we could get something that is at least better. The point is, that by 2027 it is entirely feasible that better methods of scanning and interpreting the brain will already be around, so we could bump into this kind of stuff in DX3 and it wouldn't be unrealistic.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
18th Mar 2009, 21:15
I agree. That goes for a lot of things in DX3... just because certain technology isn't around (or is in its infancy) today, doesn't mean it won't be quite common and accepted by the time we get to 2030.

K^2
18th Mar 2009, 21:19
It just seems like the MRI was not designed with high resolution brain scanning technology in mind, so if a team of experts started from the ground up with this intention then maybe we could get something that is at least better. The point is, that by 2027 it is entirely feasible that better methods of scanning and interpreting the brain will already be around, so we could bump into this kind of stuff in DX3 and it wouldn't be unrealistic.
My point is that it won't be anything even remotely like MRI. MRI is fundamentally limited by the mag field. No way around it.

GmanPro
18th Mar 2009, 21:21
^^ That's my point also :p