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imported_van_HellSing
7th Nov 2008, 16:05
Not really that much new (no new pics whatsoever, so no scans needed), but still, some interesting stuff:

-It was previously stated that the commandos who raided Adam's company were using security plans inked by Adam. The new article claims Adam only had the plans... in his head. Brain hacking, anyone?


-The commandos have some mysterious link to Adam. Who would have thunk? :rolleyes:


-Adam will visit Shanghai in the later part of the game, in search for answers.


-Shanghai is described as somewhat Blade Runnerish, lots of neon lights and frequent rain. YES!


-I'll translate this next paragraph verbatim:
No longer can you join an organisation when you've already killed a few hundred of it's members. The player's behaviour will be crucial to the game's plot. Not only in the last few minutes of the game, as in most games on the market right now, but throughout the whole game. Adam will meet a lot of characters he can talk to if he likes. He will be forced to solve some difficult problems, and the solutions will rely purely on the player's decisions. The developers will give you full freedom of choice in regards who you want to meet, where you want to go, who you want to kill. Sounds all great and ambitious, let's hope half of that doesn't get cut.


-In the part about health regen, cover system, etc:
If you wish to criticise Eidos Motreal, do it now. The game is in early production stages, and many things can still change.


-Every weapon can be modified. Scopes, laser pointers, grenade launchers, railguns etc. Resources will be limited, so you have to plan carefully. Yay for meaningful choice!


-All available augs come from military labs etc. It's not known how Adam gains access to these. So all those over-the-top augs are not something the average Joe can get his hands on, but rather experimental, classified stuff. Good.


-20 different augs. Some available from the start, others later on.



Oh, and one more interesting thing: NEOplus is a console magazine. And they were still pretty bitter about the changes made to the gameplay. So much for the "dumb console crowd" stereotype.

Yargo
7th Nov 2008, 16:18
Yay! for my guess on railguns. Interesting on the whole brain hack Idea. That would be totally awesome. I have to agree with the magazine in that I hope the ambitious stuff doesn't get cut. Get it right! NO Shortcuts!

-Adam will visit Shanghai in the later part of the game, in search for answers.
Was it ever said that he works in Shanghai? OR could that have been assumed since that was the only location given to us at the time?

-20 different augs. Some available from the start, others later on.
Some how I have picked up this impression that the 20 Augs will be stored at Adam's apartment and are kind of hot-swap deals where you can go to the apartment and gear up for the next task.

-In the part about health regen, cover system, etc:
Quote:
If you wish to criticise Eidos Motreal, do it now. The game is in early production stages, and many things can still change.

Throwing my two cents in here. I want localized damage!!!

imported_van_HellSing
7th Nov 2008, 16:25
Was it ever said that he works in Shanghai? OR could that have been assumed since that was the only location given to us at the time?

Yup, that's pretty much the case. Detroit seems the more viable starting location now, with that poster in Adam's apartment and all. I'm guessing Shanghai will play a similar role in DX3 as Hongkong in DX1: the second large "hub" you visit, where the game really gets going.

LeatherJacket
7th Nov 2008, 17:39
-Shanghai is described as somewhat Blade Runnerish, lots of neon lights and frequent rain. YES!

Woohoo! :D

VodunLoas
7th Nov 2008, 19:03
Heh, I was thinking about rain earlier, now that would really set a wonderful mood and atmosphere.

Yargo
7th Nov 2008, 19:09
I agree. Its funny that it was always raining in blade runner and the scene was great! I wonder how well the engine will handle rain? Rain is a great mood setter.

GmanPro
7th Nov 2008, 19:12
I might as well throw in my two cents also.

Localised damage and no auto heal please!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Yargo
7th Nov 2008, 19:15
I might as well throw in my two cents also.

Localised damage and no auto heal please!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Yay 4 cents:D

GmanPro
7th Nov 2008, 20:20
DX3 is sounding more and more like a Fallout 3 type of deal.

And I mean that the artwork and setting is in-line with the original but the gameplay is different.

Now I know that what they are proposing isn't really as big a difference as the transition between classic fallout and fallout 3 was, and DX3 will still be an fps/rpg. But still, I really wish they wouldn't try to tinker with it so much... It was fine just the way it was.

Lazarus Ledd
7th Nov 2008, 20:36
localized auto heal + MEDS

gamer0004
7th Nov 2008, 20:38
-It was previously stated that the commandos who raided Adam's company were using security plans inked by Adam. The new article claims Adam only had the plans... in his head. Brain hacking, anyone?

-Shanghai is described as somewhat Blade Runnerish, lots of neon lights and frequent rain. YES!


Blade Runner? YIKES!

Brain hacking? Tentacle augs? Cyberblades?
Ouch!

Yargo
7th Nov 2008, 21:05
Blade Runner? YIKES!

Brain hacking? Tentacle augs? Cyberblades?
Ouch!

Your negativity is limitless. Although I agree, the tentacles are far out there. But otherwise there is enough science to back up the possibility of Brain hacking especially by 2027. Maybe not so far as gathering information, but controlling motor functions. And what do you mean by Cyberblades?

GmanPro
7th Nov 2008, 21:15
Accuracy, range and recoil mods. Definitely a must-have. :thumbsup:

Yargo
7th Nov 2008, 21:17
Accuracy, range and recoil mods. Definitely a must-have. :thumbsup:

Don't forget clip mods :thumbsup:

Yargo
7th Nov 2008, 21:21
Let's not forget Glass Destabilizer, one of the rare non-retarded and original features of IW.

Never heard of it. Do you mind filling me in?

Yargo
7th Nov 2008, 21:26
http://www.gamebanshee.com/deusexinvisiblewar/weaponmods.php

There you go mate. Alongside other weapon mods of IW.

Thanks. That is a pretty sweet mod :thumbsup:

GmanPro
7th Nov 2008, 21:49
Any other types of weapon mods you guys would like to see in DX3?

I like the classic ones, and that glass mod is cool too.

Instead of limiting how many mods we can put on a gun, I think they should just limit how many total mods there are in the game. So that it's really rewarding when you find one and you have to think carefully about using them.

Mr. Perfect
8th Nov 2008, 00:21
Very glad to hear about the factions remembering your actions. :cool:


Instead of limiting how many mods we can put on a gun, I think they should just limit how many total mods there are in the game. So that it's really rewarding when you find one and you have to think carefully about using them.

Absolutely. I'm sure I'm not the only person out there that slapped every single mod they could get on a single weapon. :D I had the 10mm to end all 10mms! I wonder what it would have looked like with all of those clip extenders, stock cushions, and recoil stabilizers bolted on...:eek:

spm1138
8th Nov 2008, 00:23
Weapon mods... hmm.

Different types of scopes. Like light amplifying, thermal, sonar. Computerised scope with aiming point calculation.

Flashlight (with visible light and infra-red modes).

I would say "bipod" but it looks obsolete next to that fancy gyro thing.

Recoil compensator. This would be an either/or with the sound suppressor.

Different barrels etc. for some of the weapons?

Non-lethal ammo. Armour piercing ammo.

I almost think it'd be interesting if you could have a weapon built one way to maximise accuracy/damage or another way to be compact and concealable or another way to be a sneaky silent kill.

GmanPro
8th Nov 2008, 00:28
I think EM should add different types of ammo.

This is one thing I thought Fallout 3 missed the mark on (fortunately though there is a very good possibility of an expansion or at least of Bethesda releasing an SDK).

I want armor piercing rounds, Full Metal Jacket regular rounds, non-lethal might be a little too much though...

I want armor piercing rockets and fragmentation rockets, and EMP rockets. I want a ton of customization in the weapon system.

Also, now that the technology is there, I wonder if you'll be able to see all of your mods on your gun. Even if you put pretty much every mod in the game onto the same gun...

spm1138
8th Nov 2008, 00:30
Can't see why not.

It'd only be like America's Army or Hitman Contracts.

They already appear to be doing that from the art we've been shown.

imported_van_HellSing
8th Nov 2008, 00:31
Well, the rifle study pic shows multiple mods installed at once, so I'd say it's a definite possibility. :cool:

GmanPro
8th Nov 2008, 00:36
it's a definite possibility. :cool:

I should be using this phrase in a drinking game... :cool:

imported_van_HellSing
8th Nov 2008, 00:44
Hehe, it should totally be an easter egg in the game somewhere :D

dark_angel_7
8th Nov 2008, 11:00
Great, thanks for the information. Sounds cool. :cool:

LatwPIAT
8th Nov 2008, 13:14
Brain hacking especially by 2027. Maybe not so far as gathering information, but controlling motor functions.

Except no such thing was present in Deus Ex. It would feel a bit odd if mechanical brains were prevalent enough for brain hacking to be a viable tool in 2027, but suddenly be all gone in 2054. I guess you could say that Anna Navarre and Gunther Herman had mechanical, hackable brains, but I though half the revolution in Deus Ex was that the thing you'd been carrying arround in your head for the whole game, the infolink, actually allowed direct communication with the brain, allowing you to merge with Helios. I guess you could rationalize it as the mechanical brain just being an interface, and therefore not actually taking control over the brain itself, but then we encounter the fact that we need really detailed, defined rules on how these things work, which I guess could be solved by datacubes...

It just seems so akward...

Tecman
8th Nov 2008, 13:18
Except no such thing was present in Deus Ex. It would feel a bit odd if mechanical brains were prevalent enough for brain hacking to be a viable tool in 2027, but suddenly be all gone in 2054.

Ever hear of firmware upgrades or patches? Or, heavens forbid, new hardware?

SageSavage
8th Nov 2008, 13:33
Well, it undeniably messes a bit with the continuity because hackable brains will (pretty sure) be a major topic and there is no way that it will be forgotten and never mentioned again 20 years later. That may piss some hardcore fans off but personally I prefer an updated version of the cyberpunk vision over an outdated "true to the original"-version. The idea itself is totally cyberpunk and fits the DX-universe very well. If it's embedded in a good DX-like plot, I won't mind this at all.

gamer0004
8th Nov 2008, 16:07
Your negativity is limitless. Although I agree, the tentacles are far out there. But otherwise there is enough science to back up the possibility of Brain hacking especially by 2027. Maybe not so far as gathering information, but controlling motor functions. And what do you mean by Cyberblades?

Your expectations towards science are limitless. Brain hacking will likely never be possible, and certainly not within 20 years. Hell, scientists still don't know much of the basics, let alone being able to read brains or to control functions of the human body at a distance. And even if the latter would be possible (and it won't be in 20 years, nor likely ever) then the game would still be far off with the reading of the brain (because getting plans out of the head of someone would mean reading his mind).

@Fox: sure, they can "update" but if so don't call it Deus Ex. Because this has nothing, "I repeat, nothing" to do with Deus Ex anymore. But when this game is called Deus Ex (3) it means both games have to be seen as set in one universe, not as two separate universes.

SemiAnonymous
8th Nov 2008, 16:30
Brain hacking?
...Brain control aug? Please?

SageSavage
8th Nov 2008, 16:47
Your expectations towards science are limitless. Brain hacking will likely never be possible, and certainly not within 20 years. Hell, scientists still don't know much of the basics, let alone being able to read brains or to control functions of the human body at a distance. And even if the latter would be possible (and it won't be in 20 years, nor likely ever) then the game would still be far off with the reading of the brain (because getting plans out of the head of someone would mean reading his mind).
I believe you are wrong there because I recently read several articles from reputable sources about this topic. I am actually a bit concerned about it.

Edit: I can't be bothered with finding those articles but in an attempt to back it up a bit, I did a quick google-search for some info about the current situation:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3495433.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_magnetic_resonance_imaging
http://www.aclu.org/privacy/medical/26035prs20060628.html
http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/news/2008/06/144249_Northrop_Grumman-Led_Te.html
http://www.noliemri.com/


@Fox: sure, they can "update" but if so don't call it Deus Ex. Because this has nothing, "I repeat, nothing" to do with Deus Ex anymore. But when this game is called Deus Ex (3) it means both games have to be seen as set in one universe, not as two separate universes.
You (and a couple of other "hardcore fans") have the problem with not seeing it as part of the DX universe anymore. I already told you that I don't have that problem at this point and judging from what other people posted, I'd say that I am not alone.

me.exe
8th Nov 2008, 20:10
@Fox: sure, they can "update" but if so don't call it Deus Ex. Because this has nothing, "I repeat, nothing" to do with Deus Ex anymore. But when this game is called Deus Ex (3) it means both games have to be seen as set in one universe, not as two separate universes.

It is absolutely too soon to say this.

EDIT: And the whole "brain hacking thing" is fine. They've obviously got a mature cybernetic technology in the Deus Ex universe, which is why you have your Gunther Hermanns and Anna Navarres walking around, and even heavily-augmented drug dealers and bartenders. They're enhancing all the visible components of the human being, it's not unlikely they'd attempt to augment the human brain. Perhaps the (in-universe) reason it never came up in Deus Ex was that Hermann and Navarre were well-secured against such intrusions as part of their assignment to UNATCO. If Adam Jensen in Deus Ex 3 can be brain-hacked, it could well be because he was betrayed by someone with access to his brain augmentations (i.e. a technician working for whoever installed his implants; obviously cyborgs need check-ups for their mechanical components as well as their organic ones). If you want to storm a facility and you know they've got cyborgs on the security staff, it makes sense to try subverting them indirectly before your assault.

LatwPIAT
8th Nov 2008, 20:23
Ever hear of firmware upgrades or patches? Or, heavens forbid, new hardware?

If you are suggesting that security patches or upgrades will make a system a) impossible to hack, and/or b) right-up-and dissapear, I think we have completly different views on the possibilities of cryptography.

@ -=fox=-:
Of course, you would feel it as a Deus Ex game even if others don't. Now, I'm pretty sure there are people out there who enjoyed Highlander 2, but that doesn't change the fact that it was filled with stupid deviations from the original plot.

The whole idea of canon is a bit complicated, but if I played Deus Ex and liked it because of it's dark and detailed world with realistic technology, and gets served a slightly brighter, just as detailed world whose advanced technlogy contradicts Deus Ex while at the same time being a prequel, then yes, I feel wronged. Writers always put limits on themselves, and later writers should always follow the limits set forth by previous writers. If it is stated in a datacube in Dues Ex that JC Denton and Bob Paghe are the only people in the world with computerized brains (I'm not sure if this is actually true; This is a hypothetical situation.) then Eidos Montreal should be obligated to follow this limit.

When Westwood Pacific decided to write Red Alert 2, they had a problem. It wouldn't make any sense for Red Alert 2 to exist in between Tiberian Dawn and Red Alert, so they actually declared the game non-canon before it was released. They claimed it was a spinoff. They had a limit, and decided to avoid the limit by making a spinoff. Until Deus Ex 3 is declared a spinoff, I will complain over every single thing that does not make sense in the context of Deus Ex.

me.exe
8th Nov 2008, 20:51
I understand your concerns regarding the canon, but I wonder if the "brighter" impression you're getting is more to do with the setting as we've had it presented to us so far; it's a new game in the series and naturally they want to show off what's new and interesting, whereas the fan-base would be most interested in seeing them recapitulate elements of Deus Ex 1.

The brighter elements such as the Renaissance-style costumes (which presumably appear only in upper-class Shanghai) are likely meant to provide contrast with the run-down slums we'll likely be spending some time in. I'd imagine Shanghai in Deus Ex 3 will be a bit like the Hong Kong levels (or Seattle in Invisible War), in that you've got a split between the nice part of town and the grubby bits.

I'm not bothered by the advanced technology we've seen so far. If they'd been able to give Gunther mechanical tentacles (or similarly outlandish augmentations) in Deus Ex, I'm sure they would have. It's more of an engine limitation from the previous game.

SageSavage
8th Nov 2008, 20:58
@ -=fox=-:
Of course, you would feel it as a Deus Ex game even if others don't. Now, I'm pretty sure there are people out there who enjoyed Highlander 2, but that doesn't change the fact that it was filled with stupid deviations from the original plot.
I don't think you should use movie-examples when talking about games but I am pretty sure there are people who where Batman-fans and enjoyed his reinvention with Batman Forever and The Dark Knight even more than the first three movies. Although they messed a lot with the continuity.


When Westwood Pacific decided to write Red Alert 2, they had a problem. It wouldn't make any sense for Red Alert 2 to exist in between Tiberian Dawn and Red Alert, so they actually declared the game non-canon before it was released. They claimed it was a spinoff. They had a limit, and decided to avoid the limit by making a spinoff.
Well, I agree: it would be nice if the team would officially announce that they need to change some things because they need to. Would be a respectful and honest gesture. But I know that already so it really isn't that important to me. What counts is how the game will turn out when I have it on my system.



Until Deus Ex 3 is declared a spinoff, I will complain over every single thing that does not make sense in the context of Deus Ex.
Right... where was that ignore-button again?

gamer0004
8th Nov 2008, 21:09
I believe you are wrong there because I recently read several articles from reputable sources about this topic. I am actually a bit concerned about it.

Edit: I can't be bothered with finding those articles but in an attempt to back it up a bit, I did a quick google-search for some info about the current situation:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3495433.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_magnetic_resonance_imaging
http://www.aclu.org/privacy/medical/26035prs20060628.html
http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/news/2008/06/144249_Northrop_Grumman-Led_Te.html
http://www.noliemri.com/


You (and a couple of other "hardcore fans") have the problem with not seeing it as part of the DX universe anymore. I already told you that I don't have that problem at this point and judging from what other people posted, I'd say that I am not alone.

I never said I'm a "hardcore fan" and the problem in fact is that I do see DX3 as a part of the DX universe, but now I'm stuck with a universe that doesn't make sense anymore.

About brain reading: I knew about those. But you might understand that reading the brain using an MRI scanner to find out that someone is having aggressive thoughts is completely different from actually reading peoples' minds using a portable scanning device which must be concealed at all times to avoid suspicion.

me.exe
8th Nov 2008, 21:17
About brain reading: I knew about those. But you might understand that reading the brain using an MRI scanner to find out that someone is having aggressive thoughts is completely different from actually reading peoples' minds using a portable scanning device which must be concealed at all times to avoid suspicion.

Like I said above, it doesn't have to be someone logging on to Adam's unsecured wireless head. ;) If he needs scheduled maintenance on his cyborg components, there'll obviously be doctors specialising in that field. If one of them is turned by the enemy, whoever that is, they might be able to pull data from any brain augmentations he has; perhaps, for example, he has a tactical system which ties him into the security cameras and gives him a floorplan to work with. If a spy got access to that data it could definately help plan a raid on the facility.

SageSavage
8th Nov 2008, 21:21
About brain reading: I knew about those. But you might understand that reading the brain using an MRI scanner to find out that someone is having aggressive thoughts is completely different from actually reading peoples' minds using a portable scanning device which must be concealed at all times to avoid suspicion.
What made you think that DX3 features a portable scanning device? Also is it possible to get a lot more information out of somebody with these devices than you make it look like. That is only technology that is already in use - remember how fast personal computers evolve. In my opinion it's pretty likely to have huge advancements in that field by 2027.

v.dog
9th Nov 2008, 02:04
I might as well throw in my two cents also.

Localised damage and no auto heal please!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


Yay 4 cents:DGot change for a dollar? :)

All up tho', it's very good news. I'm looking forward the Blade Runner-esque Shanghai. I wonder if we'll see any nods to the actual movie, like an origami unicorn.

GmanPro
9th Nov 2008, 03:55
Yeah me too.

DX3 is shaping up to be, ignoring auto-heal and other console-style changes, very cool looking. :cool:

The cool factor was the first thing that drew me to DX1, and then the story just took a hold of me and I just didn't want to stop... Its a shame really, because I've never truly been able to find another game that gave me an experience like that, and I don't think I ever will unfortunately.

Yargo
9th Nov 2008, 07:02
Your expectations towards science are limitless. Brain hacking will likely never be possible, and certainly not within 20 years. Hell, scientists still don't know much of the basics, let alone being able to read brains or to control functions of the human body at a distance. And even if the latter would be possible (and it won't be in 20 years, nor likely ever) then the game would still be far off with the reading of the brain (because getting plans out of the head of someone would mean reading his mind).

@Fox: sure, they can "update" but if so don't call it Deus Ex. Because this has nothing, "I repeat, nothing" to do with Deus Ex anymore. But when this game is called Deus Ex (3) it means both games have to be seen as set in one universe, not as two separate universes.

I'm sorry if I mis led you by saying brain hacking. Its not so much the ability to tell the brain to do something but to interpret what comes out of it. For someone to have mechanical augmentations there would have to be something that interprets the brains message and then sends the proper signal to the augmentation. One could easily send their own signal bypassing the interpretation device and control the augmentations. As for reading minds, I wouldn't say never but probably not in my life time. But, again if the information was somehow stored mechanically with a hard drive then there is again the potential for signal interruption. :D

gamer0004
9th Nov 2008, 09:45
What made you think that DX3 features a portable scanning device? Also is it possible to get a lot more information out of somebody with these devices than you make it look like. That is only technology that is already in use - remember how fast personal computers evolve. In my opinion it's pretty likely to have huge advancements in that field by 2027.

Sorry, you're right that it doesn't have to be portable. But when could he be scanned using something like an MRI scan? AJ doesn't have augs at the beginning of the game... So only if he would've been in hospital at the right time for the attack... And in the right hospital. So yeah it's possible. But it's not likely. It will raise questions. Besides, EM won't work it out like this, I think.

Either way; let me explain why there won't be such huge advancements.
It is often heard that people say "look what we've done in 50 years: we put a man on the moon, sent satellites to Mars and we've got computers."
This is of course all true. They are, however, wrong when they use that as an argument for another huge sciencific advancement. Many series/games/movies tend to do that, but it's simply not going to happen.

It's very simple. Putting a man on the moon is not very complicated. You have to be able to build a rocket (needing knowledge, industry, money, technology), calculate all factors (knowledge) and then you send the rocket to the moon. The main problems are practical; how do we make a shield that is capable of withstanding such incredible heats as encountered when going back to the earth? How do we make a rocket that's strong enough to constrain all the power but is light enough to lift off?

Brain hacking, on the other hand, is different. We do not have the knowledge nor the technology. You know, when your and my brain are showing exactly the same amount of activity in exactly the same spot we will likely still be thinking (of) something completely different.
To be able to read peoples minds we'd have to:
-scan all the brain activity
-remove all the irrelevent activity
-analyze the relevent activity
-form an image or thought out of the context of the brain.
Sounds simple. But it's not. What's relevant and what's not? What does activity in exactly that cell mean?
You'd have to know exactly how that persons brain was formed. So you'd have to scan everybody's brains for all their lives and then you might be able to read their minds.
Besides, we will not have the knowledge for quite some time. And once we have that it would still take years to develop the right technology. And even then it would probably be very impractical.

It's not going to happen...

SageSavage
9th Nov 2008, 11:10
You know, when your and my brain are showing exactly the same amount of activity in exactly the same spot we will likely still be thinking (of) something completely different.
You: "DX3 must suck as a DX-game"
Me: "DX3 has a good chance to become a good DX-game but we'll see."

It's largely a matter of believe, just like none of us can tell for sure how effective these brain scanning techniques will be by the year 2027. We have opposing opinions about both topics but what galls me a bit is that you make yours sound like as if everything was settled and obvious already, arguing as if everybody believing something else must be wrong then. Your opinion about DX3 is extremely pessimistic, which is ok, but I am under the impression that you made a habbit out of convincing as many people as you can based on believes not facts. I think that is playing foul on those who want to stay neutral until they can really judge it for themselves and especially on the devs.

Lazarus Ledd
9th Nov 2008, 11:26
He's just a layman, fox. Thinks he know everything. :scratch:
Enough to say, his or mine opinion is not absolute, but that doesn't give him the right to force his opinion with "musts, can't be done....
AJ could have been brain hacked by psychic powers. Russians have explored on this matter in telepathy to reveal enemies location and the order in it in, coldwar?.....So let's say things have had a great improment on this matter, but all was done behind the public eyes, behind the world stage where the big boys get to play first with alien ships and corpses, etc....saying that scientist have not yet explred enough the subject, who are these scientists? Cynics or the scientist working in shade?


Don't be a sceptic, gamer. If we act like it, well never go forth where no man has gone before =))
Why not add a prefix cynic to your avatar name, so we know who were dealing with? Are you one?


Cynic
The ultimate naysayer, the Cynic has a Masters degree in negativity. Adroit at using the phrase, "it won't work," they are skilled at deflating and defeating whatever motion is in motion. "Can't be done." "They'll never buy it." "We tried it once and it was a failure." Their motto: just say no.

Challenge cynical employees to think like the Devil's Advocate; suppose for a minute that the idea or project could work. Use a common conflict resolution tool and ask the Cynic to embrace the other side's point of view as if it were their own, and argue that side's position.

http://humanresources.about.com/od/meetingmanagement/a/meeting_people.htm
Man I need to have a glance at that article more often. It was a part of my seminary at college.
I wonder who fits what? :lol:

spm1138
9th Nov 2008, 11:42
People who argue about the logic and internal consistency of sci-fi die alone and then their cats Leonard, Bill and Deforest nibble their bloated corpse where it lies atop their Thundercats duvet.

Just saying ;)

SageSavage
9th Nov 2008, 11:45
I guess I'm a Morph because occasionally I take on the form of most archetypes described there.

spm1138
9th Nov 2008, 11:55
Me too :cool:

imported_van_HellSing
9th Nov 2008, 18:10
On the whole brain hacking controversy:

How about this: Adam has the plans not in his own memory, but stored in a computer wired to his brain, so he can easily access and visualise them. So, the hacking wouldn't require reading of Adam's thoughts, but rather hacking (either remotely or directly, during maintenance or something) that "external memory", to use a GitS term.

Note that the "brain hacking" bit was my own comment on the article info, not something that the article stated flat out. All the italicised bits from my opening post are my own comments, perhaps I should have made that clear.

SageSavage
9th Nov 2008, 20:30
Yeah, I realized that halfway during that discussion but I don't think it's too far fetched. If it's in DX3, I'd probably consider it a part of an updated vision of the near future, depending on the rest of the game. If there's no brain scanning / hacking in DX3 then there's at least one continuity-issue less to argue about. We'll see...

Psychomorph
10th Nov 2008, 00:17
If you wish to criticise Eidos Motreal, do it now. The game is in early production stages, and many things can still change.
We can? It is? And they can?

Hmm...

Laokin
10th Nov 2008, 07:25
Sorry, you're right that it doesn't have to be portable. But when could he be scanned using something like an MRI scan? AJ doesn't have augs at the beginning of the game... So only if he would've been in hospital at the right time for the attack... And in the right hospital. So yeah it's possible. But it's not likely. It will raise questions. Besides, EM won't work it out like this, I think.

Either way; let me explain why there won't be such huge advancements.
It is often heard that people say "look what we've done in 50 years: we put a man on the moon, sent satellites to Mars and we've got computers."
This is of course all true. They are, however, wrong when they use that as an argument for another huge sciencific advancement. Many series/games/movies tend to do that, but it's simply not going to happen.

It's very simple. Putting a man on the moon is not very complicated. You have to be able to build a rocket (needing knowledge, industry, money, technology), calculate all factors (knowledge) and then you send the rocket to the moon. The main problems are practical; how do we make a shield that is capable of withstanding such incredible heats as encountered when going back to the earth? How do we make a rocket that's strong enough to constrain all the power but is light enough to lift off?

Brain hacking, on the other hand, is different. We do not have the knowledge nor the technology. You know, when your and my brain are showing exactly the same amount of activity in exactly the same spot we will likely still be thinking (of) something completely different.
To be able to read peoples minds we'd have to:
-scan all the brain activity
-remove all the irrelevent activity
-analyze the relevent activity
-form an image or thought out of the context of the brain.
Sounds simple. But it's not. What's relevant and what's not? What does activity in exactly that cell mean?
You'd have to know exactly how that persons brain was formed. So you'd have to scan everybody's brains for all their lives and then you might be able to read their minds.
Besides, we will not have the knowledge for quite some time. And once we have that it would still take years to develop the right technology. And even then it would probably be very impractical.

It's not going to happen...

Excuse me... did you just say what I think you said? Putting a man on the moon isn't hard???

Well first thing is first... Newtons Law is wrong.... FACT. We build Neutonian rockets based on a mildly accurate opinion... plus we figured out how to not get Radiated... and have now figured out how to fight the bone density loss caused by the effect of Zero G. Atrophy sets in pretty fast in space. Lets fail to mention how we manage to carry just enough oxygen for the entire trip, aswell as how to lift millions of pounds (hundred-thousands of tons) worth the rocket fuel... have it ignite and NOT explode. Lets also ignore how inhumanly complicated it is to make sure your spacecraft stays on the exact course and angle, mind you... if it's off 2 degree's the fire shooting from the rocket will blow back under the extremely volatile gigantic rocket fuel tank sitting right under your ride, and heat it to combustion. Naw, rocket science isn't hard... after all, we all compare ourselves to rocket scientists and brain surgeons everyday don't we. i.e. "It's not like it's rocket science, it's simple" or, "How hard can it be..... I'm a surgeon with this mouse."

Lets solve the problem of carrying too much weight in space by effectively splitting your vehicle into 2 entities on the push of a button. Better yet, how did we make computers so efficient to utilize all the functions and calculations a space shuttle must do in order to have the crew even have a remote chance of returning to Earth with only, dare I say it, 16MB's of ram? Remember we went to space before most people on this forum were even born. There are many, many, many factors that make this an absolutely mind boggling evolutionary event in human history. Oh ****, we'll just dumb it down comparing it to a hypothetical futuristic universe penned by nobody writers and throw out the amazing true story of how complicated and nearly impossible it was to even get into orbit let alone land and return from the F'n moon.

Secondly, we already have prosthetic that are connected to the original nerves that function when we want them to. I seen a show on discovery about a soldier who had his arm blown off. They hooked him up with a prosthetic that reads nerve pulses. So effectively he can open and close his hand. He would be able to do much more had we the capability to create artificial nerves. Enter modern Nano technology. We are unlocking the brain at alarming rates. Reading some one's mind sounds all scifi... but is probably real likely as the military invests in that sort of technology. That rfMI junk is the first effective 100% lie detector ever made. This is only 60 ish years after computers were invented. The next important part to note... DX is far more advanced then us. Not because it's 2050... because in the real world by 2050 we aren't going to have a fraction of the tech that is available in DX. This implies that humans as a whole are much more technologically inclined in the DX universe. i.e. They probably had computers by 1900 or the late 1800's as every bit of tech in the DX universe implies they had a head start. Either that, or they invent faster than us.

Either way, it's very concievable by 2027 we will be able to decipher much more of the brain then we can today. This means we could conceivable have mind reading in the real world by then....(probably not... but entirely possible) it just more then likely would be non-mainstream, aka not for practical use. This would mean only certain people would be able to do this sort of thing, perfectly sliding it's way into the DX universe. It could also be a prototype technology, a prototype that had it's creators killed before it was finished or refined enough to be announced. Thus, effectively wiping out all public even governmental knowledge of the technology all together.

Another way to put it is, say I invented a time machine and just went to the future with it. Say I didn't tell anybody and I never came back... would the world know I had a time machine?

So said evil faction creates a mind reading prototype device... ( prototypes can be small ) then said faction is wiped out entirely before the conclusion of the game.... Voila, no more mind reading in the future of the DX universe.

It's also important to note, that when using technology infused with the brain... it's entirely possible that the device in your head could record all your neural readings. Somebody who has access to that data could leak it... essentially being called a "brain hack". Also, it's entirely possible that there is a solution to the encryption of the technology that records your neural readings. With that said... why would it be impossible to hack a brain? BTW, it's been announced that you start with more than 1 Augmentation. Anybody citing that Adam wouldn't have Augs at the time of the attack are mistaken. That being said.... he could presumably have some sort of tech already fused with the brain. The kind of tech that makes you an awesome security agent. (i.e. Some sort of brain enhancement that relies upon neurological readings.)

In the future... not many people know about nano-augmentation. It's pretty top secret, very select. In DX 1, you were one of the very tiny minority that had access to such knowledge. Who would be alive with the knowledge and capability to even be able to hack such a superior secret soldiers brain... when they don't even know he exists. Once again... it's important to note that early technology always gets raped by hackers. Security is built from the ground up... Mech Augs were prototypes. It's entirely plausible that the technology was fairly early and fairly popular... which equates to fairly a big target for a cyberpunk hacking fanatic.

The moral of the story here is that it really comes down to how skilled the writers are. I presented numerous arguments that are irrefutable and non-lame and I'm not even a professional game writer. Once again, patience is a virtue for a reason. I wish more people would exercise this excellent observation. (patience.... not my opinion.)

P.S.
-scan all the brain activity - So? we can scan 90% of brain activity now, let alone 18 years or so in the future.
-remove all the irrelevent activity - How about take it all... sift through the important parts later with meta-search engines to find criteria that matches what your looking for?

-analyze the relevent activity - Once again... so? You analyze all activity, and filter to what's relevant... plus... FUTURE, SCIFI.... INVISIBILITY I mean come the "F" on with this "DX was so realistic" nonsense.
-form an image or thought out of the context of the brain. No you wouldn't, who said they seen any images.. this is purely made up. Analyzing the data produces the thought. When you know how to scan all activity, it's GOT to be possible to translate it back to thought. Once again.... Super Strength and Invisibility. One does not get suspended in disbelief over the incredibly strong invisible man... but suspends belief about reading a thought? Reading a thought is more grounded in reality.... super strength in the real world will almost entirely rely on an ExoSuit. Invisibility is one that we will have, as we almost do now... but the same thing can be said about manipulating the brain.

Seems very grounded in the Scifi future world concept they have been provided. If you disagree, your just a "fan boy" or an over analyzer yourself.

GmanPro
10th Nov 2008, 07:45
Nice post :thumbsup:

Anyway, it reminds me of what Walton Simons said about JC, "another 90 billion dollars down the drain."

So its true that nano-augmentation was extremely cutting edge even in DX1 time. They were still in the experimental testing phase, and were planning on distributing the technology worldwide, "so long as I don't turn green and sprout a pair of antennae.":D

Still though, in the DX3 time-frame, JC is just about to be born isn't he? So obviously, nano-augmentation technology is being developed even this early. Might be an important theme in the DX3 story...

K^2
10th Nov 2008, 08:15
Excuse me... did you just say what I think you said? Putting a man on the moon isn't hard???
Compared to reading someone's thoughts? No, it's not that hard.



P.S.
-scan all the brain activity - So? we can scan 90% of brain activity now, let alone 18 years or so in the future.
-remove all the irrelevent activity - How about take it all... sift through the important parts later with meta-search engines to find criteria that matches what your looking for?

-analyze the relevent activity - Once again... so? You analyze all activity, and filter to what's relevant... plus... FUTURE, SCIFI.... INVISIBILITY I mean come the "F" on with this "DX was so realistic" nonsense.
-form an image or thought out of the context of the brain. No you wouldn't, who said they seen any images.. this is purely made up. Analyzing the data produces the thought. When you know how to scan all activity, it's GOT to be possible to translate it back to thought.
First of all, no, we cannot scan 90% of activity right now. We can scan almost none of it. There are no scanners capable of reading neural impulses with sufficient resolution and sufficient speed. MRI doesn't come even close. Even if you could read impulses, it is fairly useless without being able to tell exact concentrations of at least 10 different proteins at every synapse.

But that's a technical problem. That part is comparable to putting a man on the moon. We might be able to work it out soon enough.

But that's nothing compared to actually deciphering the information. Imagine trying to read a compressed archive without knowing the compressing algorithm. It should be obvious, I hope, that human brain does compress data. Like, when you use a pattern you noticed to remember how something looks.

Only with a brain, it is worse. The compression algorithm is part of the data you are trying to decipher. And all of that is distributed over hundreds of billions of neurons, partially as chemical concentrations, and partially as dynamic electro-chemical pulse exchange.

Compared to that, encryption algorithms we use today with a plan to keep them strong for at least another decade are just fancy substitution ciphers.

The best you can hope for for a very long time, assuming you'll have computer power, is to simulate the brain based on information gathered. Then you can try to use brain's own memory recall and translation capabilities to get to the information you want. Of course, the simulation will tend to refuse to give you information, just like a real person would, but you can subject it to all kinds of different condition to see if you can trick it into giving you the info. That might be possible some time relatively soon in the future, and even that would require breakthroughs in computer and medical sciences that are by themselves bound to make the world a very different kind of place.

Abram730
10th Nov 2008, 09:08
I think EM should add different types of ammo.

This is one thing I thought Fallout 3 missed the mark on (fortunately though there is a very good possibility of an expansion or at least of Bethesda releasing an SDK).

I want armor piercing rounds, Full Metal Jacket regular rounds, non-lethal might be a little too much though...

I want armor piercing rockets and fragmentation rockets, and EMP rockets. I want a ton of customization in the weapon system.

Also, now that the technology is there, I wonder if you'll be able to see all of your mods on your gun. Even if you put pretty much every mod in the game onto the same gun...

One of the core parts of DX is "less then lethal" take downs. It's part of the game as in real life there is an uproar at security and cops spraying up communities... You didn't have to use less lethal methods.. but they were there... check out a nonlethal play through.

Nonlethal Walkthrough - Liberty Island
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FEj75sVXwo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWUKQxA93T8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msiDs7z5bLI

gamer0004
10th Nov 2008, 15:10
Thank you for answering K^2, I couldn't have done better :)

And Laokin, I really like how effective your aruguments are in my advantage:
Invisibility is such a great example. The problems with invisibility are mainly technical. We have the knowledge to do this (in fact, it has already been kinda done). It's just some practicial problems.
Using your brain to use a prostetic arm has nothing to do with brain hacking. What we do is produce a hand which can connect to the nerve system. It's a quite simple proces, but it's hard to to develop the techology.

AdamJensen
10th Nov 2008, 16:03
The best you can hope for for a very long time, assuming you'll have computer power, is to simulate the brain based on information gathered. Then you can try to use brain's own memory recall and translation capabilities to get to the information you want. Of course, the simulation will tend to refuse to give you information, just like a real person would, but you can subject it to all kinds of different condition to see if you can trick it into giving you the info. That might be possible some time relatively soon in the future, and even that would require breakthroughs in computer and medical sciences that are by themselves bound to make the world a very different kind of place.

Dumping an "image" of the brain may not be possible. Some like Penrose argue that its impossible. Even if you want to dump it you need to essentially physically reach over individual neurons and see which all they are connected to and the potential. Much before this will happen, in place brain reverse engineering will be used. Use the live working system and severe connections and alter potentials to force the information out after priming. My doc has explained quite a lot of interesting phenomena that happen due to lesions .. which I can explain if you are interested. That formed the basis for the in place live brian reverse engineering approaches.

Anyway, I have revealed the secret of how my brain was hacked and gave me my hexagon over here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=82314)

Laokin
10th Nov 2008, 19:49
Thank you for answering K^2, I couldn't have done better :)

And Laokin, I really like how effective your aruguments are in my advantage:
Invisibility is such a great example. The problems with invisibility are mainly technical. We have the knowledge to do this (in fact, it has already been kinda done). It's just some practicial problems.
Using your brain to use a prostetic arm has nothing to do with brain hacking. What we do is produce a hand which can connect to the nerve system. It's a quite simple proces, but it's hard to to develop the techology.


Lolz it's really not. Connecting a prosthetic to a nerve requires you to understand the signal the nerve is sending. We have neural scanners now that are real time and practical for the home. The go on sale Q3 2009 for $299. They can be used as game controllers to the point of focusing on what you want to happen to make it happen. In other words, you think about moving an object... and the object moves where you want it to. This also works by allowing them to do an active scan of your neural nerve interface. In other words, if knows if you smile or if you close your eyes. It also knows when you make a fist and mover your arm around. How could it do that if the signals being sent out by the brain were still a mystery. The key to unlocking the brain doesn't lie within the brain... but in fact relies on human genomes.

We know how to turn on and off certain genomes which cause certain developments to happen. We also know why certain developments happen. So I propose another theory. Growing a human brain. If we can make one.... we can understand one. The Brain is amazing.... but it's what keeps us moving. We utilize brain power everyday to unlock life's greatest mysteries. The Japanese recently cloned 6 mice from one frozen one... frozen for 38 days. They said granted it's a mouse, humans would be harder but they said they remain optimistic and totally see it being feasible in the coming years. I also watched that spore special on Discovery, they are actually cloning chickens then manipulating the genome's of the cloned chickens and turning them into Dinosaurs. Real... Fact. We understand how a life is made, so we can create it. This means we can make a brain. If we can engineer it, how do we not know how it works? The way I see it, it's going to be sooner rather then later that we have technology this advanced. We even have man made DNA that is used as a storage device. DNA is the best compression in the universe, it contains SO much information is such a small place. We now make machine DNA strands.... nano technology is amazing. If we can understand how to decompress DNA, we surely can figure out how to decipher brain waves. The part people miss, is the fact that research must be done in such a field. Technology is advancing at alarming rates, even in fields that were previously unexplored. We are just getting around to deciphering the brain.... it's not like we have had people focused for lifetimes on this type of technology. Give it some breathing room. Not to mention, they couldn't even begin to research the brain until recently. Recent advances in technology is what just opened this surprisingly awesome field of research. I guess you guys are all rocket scientists and industry analysts, and have worked out the year and date and time we will finally see such a technology. Also, calling it impossible when there are much smarter people in the world working on it right now is a little arrogant. By saying such a thing... you are calling the genius's who make advancements in this field a bunch of idiots. Where is your college degree that gives you the qualifications to say they are wasting time.

P.S.
Even if we aren't close.... this still doesn't answer the fact that DX humans are more advanced then RL humans. Your argument over weather or not it's conceivable in the DX universe is not reciprocal of weather or now it's conceivable in real life.

Also, I fail to see where in my argument it worked out to your advantage. Prosthetic arms REQUIRE proper nerve signals to function.... how do we take the signal the nerve sends, send it to the prosthetic, and have the prosthetic know what command it was given?

Also, invisibility is IMPOSSIBLE even today. I posted that information about the Invisible nano tech sweater. Yeah it works... mmhmm, the main issue is the projection from the nano cells can only be seen when looking through a pair of special glasses. This would only work if the whole word had mechanical eye replacements, or special lenses replacing the cornia via lasek surgery, that would allow one to see the effects of the invisible sweater. It's not so much a tech limitation as it's simply impossible at this point to persue this route. They have to rebuild the nanocells to project an image with depth perception that we can see with our naked eye. Think more like Auto-stereoscopic tv's with 360ยบ of viewing angle. AKA, a hologram. 3D holograms don't exist today, and the holograms we are making are likely going to be incompatible with a device such as an invisible sweater.

http://www.io2technology.com/images/front-large.jpg

Yes this is real, but it's only a 3d hologram. It's called the Helios Display. Sounds like Deus Ex doesn't it?

Also, anybody saying brain hacking is impossible.... you haven't seen "Johnny Mnemonic." It's a story about a top secret information courier who has a hard drive connected to his brain. If you had a storage medium connected to your brain.... you wouldn't be enhancing your brains memory sections. In this respect, it would be very conceivable to then hack the hard drive that interfaces with the brain.

You know it's possible to do, we could do it today. Its just like the prosthetic, just the nerve impulses tell it what to save and what not to save. Infact, we have actually done it already. We hooked up a camera to some ones brain to they can see. The only requirement is that the optic nerve is intact. You connect a hard drive to the optic nerve and save the images... then you can pull images out of the brain. Once again, it's not really the brain... but the hard drive storing the feed from the eye.

K^2
11th Nov 2008, 07:10
Lolz it's really not. Connecting a prosthetic to a nerve requires you to understand the signal the nerve is sending. We have neural scanners now that are real time and practical for the home. The go on sale Q3 2009 for $299.
Erm... They scan the net activity of a large region of the brain. Nobody said that wasn't possible. They've been doing that for decades. To read information, you need to scan individual neurons. The only way to do so, currently, is to connect an electrode to the neuron in question. That in itself is impossible, since there are enough neurons hidden deep inside the brain. Now, one can argue that it is sufficient to connect to the surface neurons, and that might indeed be so. But you still need information on how the neurons connected to each other, and that you cannot read from the surface. You have to find a way to do some form of tomography. MRI is your best bet, and that gives you a resolution around one cubic millimeter. Nowhere near enough.


We know how to turn on and off certain genomes which cause certain developments to happen. We also know why certain developments happen. So I propose another theory. Growing a human brain. If we can make one.... we can understand one.
No, sorry. Even if we make an artificial brain, it won't let us decode information stored in one. Again, information isn't stored directly. It isn't like there is a specific synapse or neuron responsible for a particular bit of information. It is a relationship between current activity of groups of neurons and the incoming/outgoing stimuli that form information. Every single brain will have a different enough "architecture" to store the same information in completely different ways. Not to mention that how you store information depends on all other knowledge you posses. This is not the kind of thing that you can directly convert into useful information.