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View Full Version : Air Ducts, weapon sizes



spm1138
26th Oct 2008, 19:04
So... did anyone else find it a little eyebrow raising in the first game that all these maximum security buildings had air ducts big enough to admit a burly cyborg commando toting a bunch of guns bigger than he was?

Does anyone else think it'd be an interesting touch if you had leave the artillery behind to sneak in through air ducts and windows etc. and/or if the amount and size of stuff you were carrying had an effect on how stealthy you were?

Jerion
26th Oct 2008, 19:11
Definitely. I thought it was a little odd, but in a lot of areas it was done very well to make the air ducts seem smaller than they really were. I'd like to see this carried forward.

Voltaire
26th Oct 2008, 19:12
... and/or if the amount and size of stuff you were carrying had an effect on how stealthy you were?

You mean like how you slowed down whenever you equiped suitably bulky equipment (LAWs, plasma caster, Gep gun). Yeah, good idea.

spm1138
26th Oct 2008, 19:14
You mean like how you slowed down whenever you equiped suitably bulky equipment (LAWs, plasma caster, Gep gun). Yeah, good idea.

You only slowed down when you had them in your hands.

It also had no impact on how sneaky you were.

Magic pockets, clearly.

imported_van_HellSing
26th Oct 2008, 19:19
Yeah, those ducts are almost as cliche as the immortal CRATES AND BARRELS. However, it's something that just works.

As for big weapons disallowing you from tight spaces, that's a really interesting idea, though I'd imagine it would be somewhat hard to balance just right without it becoming gimmicky or iritating.

By the way, I always have to strain my suspension of disbelief when I look at my character's inventory in an RPG, imagining my characters really carry all that stuff with them. It's pretty glaring in DX, when, say, you have a GEP gun selected and go into conversation, prompting JC to hide the GEP in his pocket or something :P.

Bloodrayne had an interesting cheat code that allowed you to actually see all the weapons you carried strapped on Rayne, with animations pretty much correctly showing Rayne switching between them. That too looked a bit ridiculous at times considering the size of the arsenal you carried, but was actually pretty cool. When I run the game now for some vampiric nazi-gutting fun sometimes, I invariably use the code.

Mr. Perfect
26th Oct 2008, 19:42
It is kind of weird, but you don't really notice until you stop to think about it.

The idea of limiting weapons that can be used in a vent is interesting, but I'm not sure if it would make the game better or just end up being annoying. On one hand, you shouldn't be firing rocket launchers from inside air vents, but if players couldn't use most of their weapons when sneaking around they might not understand why. :scratch:

Mecranth
26th Oct 2008, 19:46
Realism is fun to a degree. This idea would be going above that degree.

Cugros
26th Oct 2008, 19:48
Well, there wasn't airducts in EVERY building... but yeah, it sounds like a fun idea that you really have to choose between the ability to demolish giant robots and the ability to crawl in small spaces. So you really would have to choose wether you are the sneaky stealth player who resolves problems with wits, or the heavily-packing seriously armed end extremely firepowerful Rambo.

The stealthy guy would have to settle to using grenades instead of Grenadethrower, and there would be no firethrower either, or any other huge weapons (heavy machinegun?). I would find it almost better than DX1: I would have rather used LAMs, but they were so few in number, so I had to carry around the HUGE GEP-gun. I could have used that place in many other, better ways, if the LAM supply had been adequate.

While I really can't imagine Rambo (I mean the real Rambo) trying to be stealthy by crawling in airducts. He should only resort to violence, not cowardice.

The fact that being both is hard would give the game a bit more replay value. Plus make game more realistic. I couldn't even walk while carrying GEP. Actually even a shotgun and a sniper rifle alone would be very tiring.

But maybe this kind of choise would be too extreme: It is fun to go Rambo every once in a while: "I dont want to use the next fifteen minutes finding the key for that door, so I'll just blow it up!" Its so satisfying, though no thinking is required! But I suppose grenades can be used for that.

Yeah, overall I have no strong opinion one way or another, but the suggestion in the beginning of this thread would be fine. Actually even better than the original DX model. BUt hard to say, it really has its pros and cons.

spm1138
26th Oct 2008, 19:49
It is kind of weird, but you don't really notice until you stop to think about it.

The idea of limiting weapons that can be used in a vent is interesting, but I'm not sure if it would make the game better or just end up being annoying. On one hand, you shouldn't be firing rocket launchers from inside air vents, but if players couldn't use most of their weapons when sneaking around they might not understand why. :scratch:

It never occurred to me when I was playing it but I was just telling a friend about DX3 and explaining why DX1 was so awesome and I found myself firstly saying it was a great game because it let the player make choices about how to play and then making fun of the size of the air ducts in Area 51. This led on to a) this mental image of JC hanging helplessly from an air duct wedged firmly in place by GEP gun and plasma rifle strapped to his back and b) thinking how that wasn't really a choice I'd had to make there since I was ticking every box at once.

Maybe if taking the stealth option involved more "going equipped" with sneaky burglar stuff?

Just thinking aloud.

WhatsHisFace
26th Oct 2008, 21:28
So... did anyone else find it a little eyebrow raising in the first game that all these maximum security buildings had air ducts big enough to admit a burly cyborg commando toting a bunch of guns bigger than he was?
No.

Does anyone else think it'd be an interesting touch if you had leave the artillery behind to sneak in through air ducts and windows etc. and/or if the amount and size of stuff you were carrying had an effect on how stealthy you were?
No.

DXeXodus
27th Oct 2008, 04:20
I also agree that this would be taking the quest for realism too far.

K^2
27th Oct 2008, 04:56
Main problem I see with this is that it won't change what you can do. You could still get guns inside by throwing them through windows or across ducts. It would simply take more time. As such, it would become more of an annoyance than an actual gameplay element. And you should never add realism at cost of annoyance.

gamer0004
27th Oct 2008, 14:08
Besides, most air vents are in fact strangely enough sized perfectly for a full grown man. I guess this simply has to do with maintenence?

imported_van_HellSing
27th Oct 2008, 14:16
That reminds me of one of my job trainings - it was conducted in a hotel conference room right while maintenance to the air duct system was being done, and we could hear the two workers quarreling and swearing in an a duct above us better than we could hear our instructor :nut:

Flobulon
27th Oct 2008, 14:24
As has been said before, realism is fantastic, as long as it doesn't have a negative impact on gameplay. I think this is one of those necessary evils to make the player feel like they have found a secret way past the hi-tech security systems. However, I personally think that you should not be able to fire a large weapon while crawling around in air vents - it was always much to easy in Deus Ex to simply clear a room from the air vent.

SageSavage
27th Oct 2008, 14:51
As has been said before, realism is fantastic, as long as it doesn't have a negative impact on gameplay. I think this is one of those necessary evils to make the player feel like they have found a secret way past the hi-tech security systems.
Agreed.


However, I personally think that you should not be able to fire a large weapon while crawling around in air vents - it was always much to easy in Deus Ex to simply clear a room from the air vent.

I think that the level designers have to take care of such things rather than restricting the players options in an very artificial way.

spm1138
27th Oct 2008, 16:56
Besides, most air vents are in fact strangely enough sized perfectly for a full grown man. I guess this simply has to do with maintenence?

It's not that you fit that I was getting at, but that you fit carrying .... (searches for photo) like everything these three guys (http://www.kbptula.ru/eng/atgw/images/met_2.jpg) are.

Picture the scene. Couple of rentamooks standing on guard near an air duct.

*BUMP*
*CLANG*
*CLATTER*
*SCRAPE*
sound of player cursing loudly echoes out of air vent.

Guard 1: "HAY, YOU HEAR ANYTHING?"
Guard 2: "NOPE!"

Still I suppose if it works for Harry Tuttle... :whistle:


As has been said before, realism is fantastic, as long as it doesn't have a negative impact on gameplay.

That's really a question of taste. There's no objective point at which it has been compromised too much. Well maybe if the player has to remember to eat and poop but generally not.

I wasn't suggesting it in the name of realism either, but as a stealth gameplay mechanic. But I accept I'm the only one who had this musing so, carry on. :thumbsup:

GmanPro
27th Oct 2008, 17:03
Thief did a good job of this I think. If you took out a fire arrow when you were hiding in the shadows, your stealth gem would light up like a Christmas tree. It would light up a little bit if you took out a broadhead or water arrow too. I thought this was pretty realistic, but unfortunately Deus ex 3 isn't going to use shadow-based stealth so maybe just making more noise and moving more slowly while having a large weapon in your hands will work just fine. I definitely don't want anything in my inventory to slow me down, I just don't think that weight limits make the game any better. Stalker was just plain annoying when I had to constantly go through my inventory and drop excess weight.

Tstorm
28th Oct 2008, 23:12
Guard 1: "HAY, YOU HEAR ANYTHING?"
Guard 2: "NOPE!"




Hey, i saw something, a guy in a coat.

10 seconds later...

Maybe it was just a homeless guy.:lmao:

ElectricWizard
30th Oct 2008, 09:41
I know games need to strike a balance between realism and functionality/gameplay, but I did find the ABUNDANCE of air vents a little startling, especially in high security levels. It's cool in the slums/trainstations ect but I think they should have made higher security ones alot harder to enter or more protected/scarce. WHO PUTS AIR VENTS IN AREA 51, that dude needs to be fired!

Romeo
31st Oct 2008, 08:12
I don't know about limited vent use, but he does bring up a good point about how the massive weapons will magically disappear during conversations. Something I loved about Gears of War and Halo, was that your weapon was held in your hands during the cutscenes, and in the case of Gears of War 1/2 and Halo 3, even the weapons you had in reserve were visible. I wouldn't mind some dedicated body slots for weapons only (Two holsters, two back straps and a grenade belt). That way people would actually notice a guy walking around with a rocket launcher and shotgun slung over his back. Holstered weapons and grenades could be concealed, I suppose, to allow sneaky-out-in-the open players to avoid causing a disturbence if a civilian saw them.