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Uranium - 235
24th Oct 2008, 21:42
Hi. I'm a jaded gamer. I'm cynical, bitter, and full of spite. I despise what has been done to gaming lately, and I target almost all of this vehement resentment solely at consoles. They've attracted a new breed of 'gamer' (I use that term lightly, as most of these people never cared about gaming until it was made simple enough for them to understand, and therefore I don't consider them real gamers) I simply refer to as the 'nu-gamer'.

Publishers like Eidos, Ubisoft, EA, see this market as just one huge walking bag of cash. They have very low standards, no understanding of past games, and will pretty much buy up anything with enough hype and graphics behind it. I can go on for pages making this case, citing countless examples, justifying my reasons, but suffice it to say, I can do nothing but pray that cooler heads prevail, and the Deus Ex IP stays on the PC where it began, where it belongs, and where anyone who cares about it is currently at. Is sullying the entire franchise worth your integrity for a few more pennies in your pocket? Does degrading the fantastic work of Warren Specter overall mean nothing to you, to simply chase some more sales in a group that doesn't know how to even pronounce Deus Ex, much less know what the game is?

It's a futile prayer, but I only see hope for this game in it staying pure. There is no VALID reason to ruin yet another PC franchise success story. Don't do it. You don't need it, it's been proven time and time again that PC exclusives sell just fine.

The second problem are the Deus Ex fans. And yes I'm one of them. Simply put, I also pray that the developers know when and when not to listen. See, I'm a fan of another once-great PC franchise - Tribes. Any other Tribes fan recognizes the travesty that was Tribes - Vengeance, leading Sierra to axe the franchise permanently. What lead to Tribes: Vengeance in all its hideous glory was TribalWar, and the developer's attempts to make a game 'for the fans'. Tribes 1 fans wanted this, Tribes 2 fans wanted this, fighting ensued, unproductivity ensued, and look at what happened.

There is a third problem, and that's also the fact that the developers might not know what they're doing. Yes, everyone wants to be known as the next Warren Specter, the next John Carmack. Whatever, a romantic notion, at best. But you're not flawless. Bethesda has completely ****ered up Fallout 3, because they thought they were flawless (Todd Howard is a douche). They blatantly blew off every fan and made the game they thought they would be able to make the best, and it's terrible.

Long story short, developers, do not ignore your community. Do not assume that your 'vision' is flawless. But do not make the mistake of making the game the community seems to be clamoring for by the book, that will lead to just as much disappointment. We are fans of Deus Ex, but we are not here simply to worship your countenance as you step out to address your throng of masses once a month. We want this game to be as good as it can be just as much as you do.

And for the love of god, do not make a single sacrifice for consoles. Make a PC game, and nothing but a PC game. PORT it to consoles AFTERWARDS as a SECOND THOUGHT if you have to, but always put your PC crowd's interests first.

Love.

dixieflatline
24th Oct 2008, 22:07
Ya, I am a bit concerned about the background of the lead designer , J.F Dugas.

He's only made straight up action games , like Far Cry Evolution and Splinter Cell. It kind of worries me that he doesn't seem to (from what I can Google) have any RPG experience at all, and seems more a console guy. Honestly I wonder if even played Deus Ex when it came out.

Not to say that he is incapable of making an RPG-FPS, like Deus Ex 3 should be. But I am concerned.

Larington
24th Oct 2008, 23:15
Or maybe, just maybe, he's got 15 note pads in his house with ideas containing what he might do if he was working on an action RPG. Without knowing him personally, we have no idea just how qualified he is for the role and an analysis of his abilities based on previous games hes worked on doesn't take into account the lessons he might have learned talking to other designers or attending game development conferences and other centres of learning/knowledge.

Plus, we have no knowledge about the identities or qualifications of the other designers working on the project, its clear there are others aside from the lead designer, several of which could be quite experienced in doing RPGs and action adventure games.

Hopefully, the upcoming blog will give us a better understanding of who is working on the game and what game development backgrounds they have, providing us with more confidence in their abilities in the process.

~Psychotic~
24th Oct 2008, 23:44
Just a heads-up, gamers and the consoles games are played on are not to blame for the decline in PC gaming. Pirating isn't either, only the developers/publishers are to blame.

Black markets are made for products because on the black market you can buy things for extremely cheap prices or for nothing at all. If game devs do not start to lower their prices then pirating will never change.

I would buy more games if I could afford them, I can however, not afford to pay $50 USD for a video game, especially when $1 USD is $0.55 NZD. $25 USD becomes $41 NZD for me. $100 USD becomes $160 NZD. And so I end up paying $100-$130 for a game only worth $50 USD (including shipping costs which are around $30 USD).

Dead-Eye
25th Oct 2008, 01:10
The game's already in full time production. It's going to come out for Xbox 360, PS3, and PC no matter what we say at this point. However I don't see why they can't make a game just as sophisticated. Mass Effect was fairly sophisticated for a console game. However there should be slightly unnoticed added benefits of using a PC. Like Q and E make you lean left and right, the numpad allows players to enter numbers in faster. One can select weapons from 1-9 on the keyboard, etc.

~Psychotic~
25th Oct 2008, 02:33
I couldn't care less if any game is made for console, it's when they make PC ports of games that fail. I don't know why or how developers manage to do it but PC ports of console games can screw it majorly.

That and coupled with piracy, developers just don't bother with the PC now. Developers think it's harder to crack a game for the console then it is on the PC, so they make most of their games for PC.

Heads up: Grand Theft Auto IV was cracked a WEEK before release. What was the cracked version for? The XBOX 360. A CONSOLE. Developers: Shove that in your pipe and smoke it.

Console games can be put on the black market (pirated) just as easily as PC games can.

Officer Half
25th Oct 2008, 05:18
I don't care either way as long as they START on the PC and then, if they wish, port it to consoles. Look at Kotor. First one on PC? Great. Second? Not so much. (Control-wise atleast. The 2nd game just wasn't as good overall.)

But, I think you are largely over-reacting. Whats your beef with Bethsoft? They made Morrowind. Let that sink in... Get it now? They made the best game of all time. Ever. So, Oblivion wasn't as good. They turned it into an FPS. I'm okay with that - I'm still gaming on MW. I can't judge Fallout 3, seeing as it isn't out till the 28th (coincidentally, one day after mah birthday... Hello presents! :nut: )

They won't mess D3 up. Eidos hasn't messed much up so far. We've got Thief 1 and 2. They are right on par with Morrowind in my book. We have Thief: DS, which is a little lower on the scale, but still quite good. We have D1, and D2. While D2 wasn't as good, it was still worth the money I payed.

Not all console -> pc ports are THAT bad either. Someone mentioned Mass Effect? It didn't run all that well on my PC, but I still loved it. It wasn't a PC RPG. But it was a game worth the $$$.

jc_lemon_lime
25th Oct 2008, 22:11
first person games will allways be superior on PCs, by virtue of the mouse and keyboard if nothing else. but in reguards to this thred's title; i think that fanboys are really impossible to please: if DX3 were an exact copy of DX with new graphics, we would all say that eidos is lazy and afraid to take risks. however, if they DID change much of anything beside the locals and the poly counts we would all ***** and moan that they messed with sucess and never understood specter's vision. rene and crew are really in an awful catch-22 no matter what they do:nut: :(

AaronJ
25th Oct 2008, 23:16
It's already clearly evident that this game will not be for the fans. If a smartass classification had to be chosen, it'd be cash-in more than anything.

Abram730
26th Oct 2008, 02:12
Ya, I am a bit concerned about the background of the lead designer , J.F Dugas.

He's only made straight up action games , like Far Cry Evolution and Splinter Cell. It kind of worries me that he doesn't seem to (from what I can Google) have any RPG experience at all, and seems more a console guy. Honestly I wonder if even played Deus Ex when it came out.

Not to say that he is incapable of making an RPG-FPS, like Deus Ex 3 should be. But I am concerned.

I got farcry 1 and splinter cell 1... I never finished playing them and never bought any of the sequels. The games just couldn't hold my attention. Not too slow, but hollow. Just more abc123 games and about as original as cloths sold at walmart. I also don't buy clothes from walmart by the way.

Most movies are the same too. I did like The Dark Knight. How much money did that movie pull in? Batman isn't original so what was new and original in that movie?

gamer0004
26th Oct 2008, 08:32
It's already clearly evident that this game will not be for the fans. If a smartass classification had to be chosen, it'd be cash-in more than anything.

Hmm... I'm opting for the "We'll try to make a very good game and call it Deus Ex to get extra attention and sell more."

spm1138
26th Oct 2008, 14:40
I always felt DX represented a fair degree of streamlining vs. the likes of System Shock.

The gameplay was far more broad than it was deep.

I don't think it's 100% fair then to say that simplifying and streamlining anything at all is not in the spirit.

And yeah, it'd suck if they just made a slightly fancy cover shooter.

sushi159
26th Oct 2008, 16:33
Well said man, I agree with what you said. I strongly believe that game companies shouldn't sell out a potential masterpiece just for some extra cash in their pockets. They have to do this because they want to make an amazing game, not some BS that nobody cares about and will be forgotten over time.

So far I find the approach to DX3 the way I like it IMO, the artwork is excellent and the points they made about their game pretty much includes what made the original DX so good. I hope they make the game very reminiscent of DX1 but also include some extra features that make it innovative overall. Like that thing I read about the cover system switching the 3rd person mode, I mean, I'm completely fine with that and it is just a feature of today's standards. It worked well in Gears of War and Mass Effect and can only improve gameplay, and not to mention it's optional for the strict nazis out there.

Officer Half
26th Oct 2008, 20:21
I got farcry 1 and splinter cell 1... I never finished playing them and never bought any of the sequels. The games just couldn't hold my attention. Not too slow, but hollow. Just more abc123 games and about as original as cloths sold at walmart. I also don't buy clothes from walmart by the way.

Most movies are the same too. I did like The Dark Knight. How much money did that movie pull in? Batman isn't original so what was new and original in that movie?

Whoa, what splinter cell were you playing? I loved that game!

Sulix
26th Oct 2008, 21:58
@OP

Great post, have to agree with you in almost all concerns :thumbsup:

JakePeriphery
27th Oct 2008, 00:27
Hi. I'm a jaded gamer. I'm cynical, bitter, and full of spite. I despise what has been done to gaming lately, and I target almost all of this vehement resentment solely at consoles. They've attracted a new breed of 'gamer' (I use that term lightly, as most of these people never cared about gaming until it was made simple enough for them to understand, and therefore I don't consider them real gamers) I simply refer to as the 'nu-gamer'.

Publishers like Eidos, Ubisoft, EA, see this market as just one huge walking bag of cash. They have very low standards, no understanding of past games, and will pretty much buy up anything with enough hype and graphics behind it. I can go on for pages making this case, citing countless examples, justifying my reasons, but suffice it to say, I can do nothing but pray that cooler heads prevail, and the Deus Ex IP stays on the PC where it began, where it belongs, and where anyone who cares about it is currently at. Is sullying the entire franchise worth your integrity for a few more pennies in your pocket? Does degrading the fantastic work of Warren Specter overall mean nothing to you, to simply chase some more sales in a group that doesn't know how to even pronounce Deus Ex, much less know what the game is?

It's a futile prayer, but I only see hope for this game in it staying pure. There is no VALID reason to ruin yet another PC franchise success story. Don't do it. You don't need it, it's been proven time and time again that PC exclusives sell just fine.

The second problem are the Deus Ex fans. And yes I'm one of them. Simply put, I also pray that the developers know when and when not to listen. See, I'm a fan of another once-great PC franchise - Tribes. Any other Tribes fan recognizes the travesty that was Tribes - Vengeance, leading Sierra to axe the franchise permanently. What lead to Tribes: Vengeance in all its hideous glory was TribalWar, and the developer's attempts to make a game 'for the fans'. Tribes 1 fans wanted this, Tribes 2 fans wanted this, fighting ensued, unproductivity ensued, and look at what happened.

There is a third problem, and that's also the fact that the developers might not know what they're doing. Yes, everyone wants to be known as the next Warren Specter, the next John Carmack. Whatever, a romantic notion, at best. But you're not flawless. Bethesda has completely ****ered up Fallout 3, because they thought they were flawless (Todd Howard is a douche). They blatantly blew off every fan and made the game they thought they would be able to make the best, and it's terrible.

Long story short, developers, do not ignore your community. Do not assume that your 'vision' is flawless. But do not make the mistake of making the game the community seems to be clamoring for by the book, that will lead to just as much disappointment. We are fans of Deus Ex, but we are not here simply to worship your countenance as you step out to address your throng of masses once a month. We want this game to be as good as it can be just as much as you do.

And for the love of god, do not make a single sacrifice for consoles. Make a PC game, and nothing but a PC game. PORT it to consoles AFTERWARDS as a SECOND THOUGHT if you have to, but always put your PC crowd's interests first.

Love.

This should be sticky!!!

spm1138
27th Oct 2008, 00:30
They've attracted a new breed of 'gamer' (I use that term lightly, as most of these people never cared about gaming until it was made simple enough for them to understand, and therefore I don't consider them real gamers) I simply refer to as the 'nu-gamer'.


This should be sticky!!!

I dunno. He's sperging just a bit.

Don't want to be the new NMA do you?

JakePeriphery
27th Oct 2008, 00:42
I dunno. He's sperging just a bit.

Don't want to be the new NMA do you?

I don't get yo lingo boy!

But I think he's correct and I think complex PC gaming needs to make a resurgence. **** the mainstream, especially Xbox, PS2 actually had some great games on it but new and next-gen hardware is a huge waste.

spm1138
27th Oct 2008, 03:23
NMA = No Mutants Allowed =Fan forum for the original fallout games and the home of much angst and nerd rage ever since Fallout 3 was announced and not exactly the same as the previous two games. Infamous ever since somethingawful ran a feature on them.

DXeXodus
27th Oct 2008, 04:00
He's only made straight up action games , like Far Cry Evolution and Splinter Cell.

:scratch:
Thats an absurd statement. Splinter Cell is the antithesis of an action game.

mr_cyberpunk
27th Oct 2008, 04:04
Something Awful though is a website full of 14 year old duche bags that have absolutely **** all knowledge about video games. See at least NMA consists of some people who are actually employed in the industry, and also Chris Taylor hangs out there a bit too.

I have to say, if the Deus Ex community has to become the new NMA.. So be it. Eidos Montreal you've let the entire community down at this point by showing us you've all got no idea what made Deus Ex great or even how to improve it. Well that's all I can gather from the info that has been released so far.

If you wanted to make a damn GITS or Metal Gear Solid fanboi game, then don't call it Deus Ex. /Fallout NMA rant.

Also anything that has the word "Cyber" in front of it in a Cyberpunk game is officially lame. just a bit of advice ;)

Oh and yeah an Action game is not opposite by a stealth action game, rather an Action game is opposite to a turnbased or realtime RPG. Deus Ex is supposed to be a hybrid of that, where the opposites come together, where the slow RPG meets fast paced Stealth Action.


Todd Howard is a douche

QFT!

spm1138
27th Oct 2008, 05:07
Something Awful though is a website full of 14 year old duche bags that have absolutely **** all knowledge about video games. See at least NMA consists of some people who are actually employed in the industry, and also Chris Taylor hangs out there a bit too.

I have to say, if the Deus Ex community has to become the new NMA.. So be it. Eidos Montreal you've let the entire community down at this point by showing us you've all got no idea what made Deus Ex great or even how to improve it. Well that's all I can gather from the info that has been released so far.

If you wanted to make a damn GITS or Metal Gear Solid fanboi game, then don't call it Deus Ex. /Fallout NMA rant.

Also anything that has the word "Cyber" in front of it in a Cyberpunk game is officially lame. just a bit of advice ;)

Oh and yeah an Action game is not opposite by a stealth action game, rather an Action game is opposite to a turnbased or realtime RPG. Deus Ex is supposed to be a hybrid of that, where the opposites come together, where the slow RPG meets fast paced Stealth Action.



QFT!

See?

Ass burgers.

mr_cyberpunk
27th Oct 2008, 05:17
now I remember why I stopped coming here.

LatwPIAT
27th Oct 2008, 06:48
If you wanted to make a damn GITS or Metal Gear Solid fanboi game, then don't call it Deus Ex. /Fallout NMA rant.

Yes, because Deus Ex was not ladden with GitS references. Talking to Helios was not a cut down version of the Major's conversation with the Puppet Master, the Stealth Pistol was not a copy of the Seburo C-X from Appleseed (Granted, Appleseed is not GitS, but still...) Gunther Herman and Anna Navarre are not expys of Motoko Kusanagi and Batou (Giant brute with prosthetic eyes and stealthy woman in skintight suit, get real...) And the boats and piers in Hong Kong (Granted, Hong Kong might actually look like that, but I'm trying to make a point here!)


Also anything that has the word "Cyber" in front of it in a Cyberpunk game is officially lame. just a bit of advice ;)


I'm pretty sure Cyberpunk 2013 would disagree.

Tracer Tong
27th Oct 2008, 09:23
Great going there. So much for fan support and fanbase for DX3.

I'm not sure about Fallout 3 ruining everything. I saw the videos and honestly I liked what I saw. I wouldn't mind for a futuristic Oblivion or anything. These NMA people are lifeless romantic nerds who troll forums all their lives and play old games (DX1 isn't 'old' for that matter :rolleyes:).
I see a connection between the first two games and the third (Fallout) and Bethesda Softworks did their best creating the third fallout game (and they're not EA, Epic Games or any other huge company) and I think the game's going to be great (no I do not own an X360 and that is why I haven't played the CONSOLE LEAK, no PC leak, see?)

What I think is that we shouldn't ruin the morale of the EM developers, working their asses off on DX3, making it as accurately cyberpunk as possible, sucking the juice out of the Crystal Dynamics engine to the last drop, and trying to appease the DX1 fanbase, ignoring DX:IW, and teasing us once in a while (remember the first teaser, analyzed by AaronJeans? I don't think that any game had this kind of teaser, ever).

:mad2: Pointless thread

LatwPIAT
27th Oct 2008, 10:17
Great going there. So much for fan support and fanbase for DX3.

I'm not sure about Fallout 3 ruining everything. I saw the videos and honestly I liked what I saw. I wouldn't mind for a futuristic Oblivion or anything. These NMA people are lifeless romantic nerds who troll forums all their lives and play old games (DX1 isn't 'old' for that matter :rolleyes:).
I see a connection between the first two games and the third (Fallout) and Bethesda Softworks did their best creating the third fallout game (and they're not EA, Epic Games or any other huge company) and I think the game's going to be great (no I do not own an X360 and that is why I haven't played the CONSOLE LEAK, no PC leak, see?)

What I think is that we shouldn't ruin the morale of the EM developers, working their asses off on DX3, making it as accurately cyberpunk as possible, sucking the juice out of the Crystal Dynamics engine to the last drop, and trying to appease the DX1 fanbase, ignoring DX:IW, and teasing us once in a while (remember the first teaser, analyzed by AaronJeans? I don't think that any game had this kind of teaser, ever).

:mad2: Pointless thread

Well, because I think I would fit right in with the NMA crowd, even though I haven't visited them, I'll argue here. What most people are pissed off about is the totally radical change of gameplay. They changed the game from an isometric turn-based RPG to an FPSRPG with pause. That's a complete gameplay shift. It would be like changing Deus Ex to an RTS with RPG elements, or an Isometric Turn Based RPG (Hmmm... Fallout 2 mod...) it would have the theme, it could have the style, it could have the voice actors, it could be written by Warren Spector, but it wouldn't be Deus Ex, it would be something different.

spm1138
27th Oct 2008, 10:59
Games change.

I know change may be frightening but there it is.

The thing you have to remember is that engine which you look on as "retro" and "gameplay over graphics" was once shiny high tech state of the art for that genre... and indeed the new engine created conventions for that genre.

The tech has always defined the outer limits of what the design could be.

Almost any major long running franchise will have gone through several engine upgrades and probably at least a few changes in presentation as well.

So far from where I'm sitting Eidos Montreal (I miss dev studios having proper names) haven't announced anything massively controversial or totally out of keeping with DX and it's predecessors.

GamerX51
27th Oct 2008, 11:19
Alright....up to this point, I've tried VERY hard not to go off on some these ignorant douche bags who come on these forums ranting and raving about the gameplay changes in DX3, but this thread title has finally pissed me off!! :mad:

We have abso-freaking-lutely no solid information about any aspect of DX3, aside from the Protagonist's Name and Face, a HIGHLY ABBREVIATED plot synopsis, ONE European magazine article, and a few game screens that may not even be in the game at all! How can anybody make a determination about how good or bad DX3 will be at this point in the game's development? :mad:

I swear...some of these DX fanboys are really starting to piss me off!! :mad2:

Lady_Of_The_Vine
27th Oct 2008, 11:45
Seems like this thread is another perfect candidate to get moved into the proposed "General Spit 'n' Rant Thread", hehe. :D

Tracer Tong
27th Oct 2008, 12:13
Seems like this thread is another perfect candidate to get moved into the proposed "General Spit 'n' Rant Thread", hehe. :D

:D Who cares as long as there's a stage to do so... Plus, I love ranting and raving and flaming :p

DXeXodus
27th Oct 2008, 12:18
I swear...some of these DX fanboys are really starting to piss me off!! :mad2:

You and me both :D

And yes, MrsP, this is the sort of thread that will be moved along to the hopefully soon to launched "General Spit 'n' Rant Thread".

SageSavage
27th Oct 2008, 12:31
You and me both :D Count me in. I have already been called a fanboy just because I told that we still know very little about DX3 and pleaded for some open-mindedness. Ah, the irony... It makes me feel sick.

JakePeriphery
27th Oct 2008, 13:59
Alright....up to this point, I've tried VERY hard not to go off on some these ignorant douche bags who come on these forums ranting and raving about the gameplay changes in DX3, but this thread title has finally pissed me off!! :mad:

We have abso-freaking-lutely no solid information about any aspect of DX3, aside from the Protagonist's Name and Face, a HIGHLY ABBREVIATED plot synopsis, ONE European magazine article, and a few game screens that may not even be in the game at all! How can anybody make a determination about how good or bad DX3 will be at this point in the game's development? :mad:

I swear...some of these DX fanboys are really starting to piss me off!! :mad2:


Seems like this thread is another perfect candidate to get moved into the proposed "General Spit 'n' Rant Thread", hehe. :D


You and me both :D

And yes, MrsP, this is the sort of thread that will be moved along to the hopefully soon to launched "General Spit 'n' Rant Thread".


Count me in. I have already been called a fanboy just because I told that we still know very little about DX3 and pleaded for some open-mindedness. Ah, the irony... It makes me feel sick.

I'd like to make a point. The convo started off perfectly legit with no flaming with people agreeing to the OP's thread, as soon as some people come in and disagree it's going to be moved to a rant pile? Excuse me but wtf is that? Just because you don't like what someone has to say doesn't mean it's any less valid than someone approving of what info Eidos Montreal has given us. The biggest thing is that Deus Ex 1 holds a space in my heart AS THE GREATEST GAME EVER MADE - I'm sure I'm not the only one - and you can bet yer booty we're going to defend it's integrity.

mr_cyberpunk
27th Oct 2008, 22:42
Well in all honesty the OP's original post was a flame anyway. Don't go saying that Hardcore fans will ruin this game.. because as I've seen so far none of us have even been given the chance to voice our opinion without you *******s coming around and flaming us.

Not to mention that we're the only ones who have actually BOTHERED to try and revive Deus Ex.. For FREE I might add.

If the game does die its because they failed to understand what worked the first time around instead of looking at Why IWar failed and avoiding it. So don't blame it on people that have nothing what so ever to do with EM.. If it fails.. Its because of Eidos. The focus should have been on Deus Ex 1 all along.. Not on why Iwar sucked!

Now please avoid blaming us again.


I'm pretty sure Cyberpunk 2013 would disagree.

I'm actually pretty sure William Gibson would disagree with that comment you made, since he thinks the very name Cyberpunk is cringe worthy.. yet he invented it- /Checkmate

Tstorm
27th Oct 2008, 22:56
Uranium you are my hero. You have said in one straight paragraph what I have been trying to yell at people on the sidewalk and in my school. Thank you, maybe someone with half a brain will listen to you. :thumbsup:

spm1138
27th Oct 2008, 22:59
I thought Bruce Bethke (http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/cpunk.htm) coined the term?

DXeXodus
28th Oct 2008, 03:53
I'd like to make a point. The convo started off perfectly legit with no flaming with people agreeing to the OP's thread, as soon as some people come in and disagree it's going to be moved to a rant pile? Excuse me but wtf is that? Just because you don't like what someone has to say doesn't mean it's any less valid than someone approving of what info Eidos Montreal has given us. The biggest thing is that Deus Ex 1 holds a space in my heart AS THE GREATEST GAME EVER MADE - I'm sure I'm not the only one - and you can bet yer booty we're going to defend it's integrity.



Well in all honesty the OP's original post was a flame anyway.......

^^What he said.

There is a difference between a flame and an opinion. A rant is a rant and if there is a place for rants to go then is it not only suitable for a rant to go there? :scratch:

LatwPIAT
28th Oct 2008, 06:52
I'm actually pretty sure William Gibson would disagree with that comment you made, since he thinks the very name Cyberpunk is cringe worthy.. yet he invented it- /Checkmate

Sorry, that was a mate only. He didn't invent the word, and he certainly didn't invent the genre all by himself. Blade Runner was released around the same time, without any influences, and is bascially the definite cyberpunk movie, based on earlier Philip K. **** works.

Tracer Tong
28th Oct 2008, 06:59
Sorry, that was a mate only. He didn't invent the word, and he certainly didn't invent the genre all by himself. Blade Runner was released around the same time, without any influences, and is bascially the definite cyberpunk movie, based on earlier Philip K. **** works.

lollercoaster and roflcopters on Phillip K. Di(c)k :lol:

spm1138
28th Oct 2008, 09:19
Let's call him Horselover Fat or PKD to get around it.

mr_cyberpunk
28th Oct 2008, 09:23
Sorry, that was a mate only. He didn't invent the word, and he certainly didn't invent the genre all by himself. Blade Runner was released around the same time, without any influences, and is bascially the definite cyberpunk movie, based on earlier Philip K D

Well hold on, Do Androids Dream of Electric sheep is a very sci-fi novel it lacks of a lot of the post modernism that was defined later by Blade Runner. Gibson sources PKD as well as the Riddley Scott adaptation in film as the key inspirations for Neuromancer, of course really I could argue that Metropolis was the first Cyberpunk film considering that Blade Runner was inspired by that (there's a book called, From Metropolis to Blade Runner, really great read, explains basically that Blade Runner's sets and designs were essentially trying to mimic Metropolis) but also mainly it was trying to incorporate Syd Meads new style into the scifi genre.

But Also that Gibson has cited Escape From New York (VERY Deus Ex btw.. Please watch that film and you'll see in the visuals .. heck even the fact that Liberty island is a fort with Unatco like agents on it :D) as being a big contributor to the visuals of Neuromancer. Gibson and even Riddley Scott have also noted the artist Mobius as a source of inspiration when coming up with their cyberpunks. (btw I wrote a huge 5,000 word essay on this topic at Uni) Gibson further more established that the 1980s film Heavy Metal was a huge impact on Cyberpunk and the film Tron which Gibson sources as a huge inspiration for Cyberspace (ie. The Matrix).

Gibson just merged it all together but provided us with what is probably the defining factor in Cyberpunk which is The Matrix, or as The Internet as we know it. This is what basically made Neuromancer what it was and hence defined what a Cyberpunk was.

You could say that it was Gibson that made it Mainstream.. that's why he's the one that invented Cyberpunk (reminder that Blade Runner actually flopped in the cinema).. and that's also probably why the naming just sound so lame. I'd like to remind everyone that Gibson is a Sci-Fi writer, he's not technologically adapted, he wrote Neuromancer on a 1940s style Type writer :D.

In my opinion Deus Ex focused its style on what Neuromancer had acheived. Its much more closer to what Cyberpunk should be.. which makes it so damn annoying to see Iwar and DX3 move away from that style.

But anyway I stand by my comment, anything with the word Cyber in it in a Cyberpunk just sound corny to me. (Even Cyberspace sounds lame- hence the need to call it THE MATRIX which sounds WWAAAAY better)

EDIT: oh and DXeXodus. If it was an opinion then you don't mind me saying that IN MY OPINION I think you're a biased Moderator and are terrible at what you're doing.

k thx bye.

spm1138
28th Oct 2008, 09:59
btw I wrote a huge 5,000 word essay on this topic at Uni

Awesome. You sound brainy. Can you help me with some big words I found in a book?


appeal to authority

:confused:

In my opinion picking a fight with moderators is always a lose-lose scenario.

DXeXodus
28th Oct 2008, 10:07
EDIT: oh and DXeXodus. If it was an opinion then you don't mind me saying that IN MY OPINION I think you're a biased Moderator and are terrible at what you're doing.

Thank you for your opinion. I respect that. :thumbsup:

[EDIT] Oh and if by biased you mean that I deal with trouble makers or correct mistakes, but talk nicely to those who are nice in return, then yes, I am biased :)

[EDIT] Next time, before insulting me, rather don't resort to doing it like this. Address me personally via PM. k thx bye.

[ONE MORE THING] Do you realize that I was actually agreeing with you and that I was using your words to answer someone else's question?

mr_cyberpunk
28th Oct 2008, 10:25
I was being a smart ass, no offense though you probably were offended- I don't really have a lot of respect for the community since when I first started coming here people were just asses despite my good intentions.

the definition of the Flame ignored the fact that the OP mentions Hardcore fans (basically what you'd call OTP which I'm a frequent visitor of), its a bit offensive since NO we're not going to ruin this game because at no point have we even been in contact with EM about this game, however on mods thats another story. That's all I was saying. Anyone who's angry at us doesn't understand we have every right to opinions on the matter. Just as you do.. So stop being *******s- that's why most of us don't hang around here anymore.

The Hardcore fans are what will enhance this game. We want to mod the game, we want to make it better than what EM originally releases. So I hope that EM Doesn't go bethesda on us and lock us out of an SDK.

DXeXodus
28th Oct 2008, 10:33
we have every right to opinions on the matter. Just as you do..

I agree completely. I have never said that no one may have an opinion. All I want is a place for people to vent. Therefore it will be more concentrated and better organized instead of having a new rant thread every single day cluttering up th forums.


I was being a smart ass, no offense though you probably were offended-

Well, I can't say I wasn't. I mean, after all, you told me I am terrible at what I do, when all I am trying to do is contribute to the community. :)
I work my ass off here, making helpful threads and setting up the competitions, etc. Someone has to be the nagging mother.



The Hardcore fans are what will enhance this game. We want to mod the game, we want to make it better than what EM originally releases. So I hope that EM Doesn't go bethesda on us and lock us out of an SDK.

I agree completely :thumbsup:

mr_cyberpunk
28th Oct 2008, 10:42
Well accept my apologies for being an ass then. I realize how hard your job must be given the state of the forums and I wasn't saying you were bad at your job, it was just a definition of what an Opinion and Flame was, because I can't see a difference :D.

DXeXodus
28th Oct 2008, 10:47
It's cool. This job gives you very thick skin. Unfortunately sometimes, some people manage to get under it still. :)

And I think the difference between an opinion and a flame is the following (In my opinion :D):

Opinion: When a person makes a statement that reflects the way they feel while still remaining open to the views of others and without forcing their idea onto others.

Flame: Often directed at a particular party and carries a much more abrasive tone than an opinion and is far less constructive at the same time.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
28th Oct 2008, 10:52
Opinion: When a person makes a statement that reflects the way they feel while still remaining open the views of others and without forcing their idea onto others.

Flame: Often directed at a particular party and carries a much more abrasive tone than an opinion and is far less constructive at the same time.

Absolutely agreed. :thumbsup:

mr_cyberpunk
28th Oct 2008, 11:38
Yeah that's a pretty good grasp of the concepts, but then of course an argument has both.. so yeah its a bit blurry when you think about it.

Glad to see you shrugged my insult off since that proves my comment about you was entirely false.

JakePeriphery
28th Oct 2008, 12:23
Absolutely agreed. :thumbsup:

Actually I thought the OP was heavily constructive, direct and stern in his language but overall constructive to the point where the dev's should print out his post and put it on every bulletin board in the office. :rasp:

LatwPIAT
29th Oct 2008, 21:42
You could say that it was Gibson that made it Mainstream.. that's why he's the one that invented Cyberpunk (reminder that Blade Runner actually flopped in the cinema).. and that's also probably why the naming just sound so lame. I'd like to remind everyone that Gibson is a Sci-Fi writer, he's not technologically adapted, he wrote Neuromancer on a 1940s style Type writer :D.

Well, cyberpunk isn't really mainstream, it's more of a niche market (Reality TV and CSI is mainstream.) and using the same argument I could claim that the Matrix invented cyberpunk (My argument would be weaker than yours, but wouls still stand.)

I don't disagree, he is a cornerstone in cyberpunk, especially literature, but he didn't invent it, he just inspired the majority of the later works (Man, I have to re-read GitS and look for Neuromancer references, I'd be supprised if they weren't there. Remind me to look for Blade Runner references too.) up until the point where 33% of the Matrix is heavily inspired by Neuromancer ("the Matrix" Molly/Trinity and the Reality/Simulation theme) with 33% original material and 33% GitS (Neo awakening from the Matrix, Neo jumping off a building, Neo waking up from his slumber, the lobby shootout, the "Matrix" raining code, Agent Smith landing on the roof in the begining of the movie, the exploding melons in a marketplace*)
And whether Blade Runner flopped or not doesn't have anything to do with if it invented the genre or not, that's like saying "the fist webcomic wasn't very popular so it wasn't the first" (I might be pulling that alleogy a bit too far...)



In my opinion Deus Ex focused its style on what Neuromancer had acheived. Its much more closer to what Cyberpunk should be.. which makes it so damn annoying to see Iwar and DX3 move away from that style.
.
The whole dark-and-looming style? Yeah, Neuromancer co-invented that with Blade Runner. Willim Gibson saw Blader Runner and exclaimed damnation over beating him to the punch with dystopic societies and Film Noir inspied visuals. I love that too. Heck, even GitS:SAC, which is pretty bright in comparison still has that dark flair, especially during the night. The sprawling markets from Blade Runner and Neuromancer, you just can be cyberpunk enouhg without those, you need the markets and underground bars with shady people.

*Oshii, who directed the 1995 GitS movie and helped write GitS:SAC:2nd GiG seems to have taken up the challenge the Warchovski Brother proposed and worked in several Matrix References in quite a few episodes, including #1 and #4.

Kahlell
20th Dec 2008, 01:59
Hi. I'm a jaded gamer. I'm cynical, bitter, and full of spite. I despise what has been done to gaming lately, and I target almost all of this vehement resentment solely at consoles. They've attracted a new breed of 'gamer' (I use that term lightly, as most of these people never cared about gaming until it was made simple enough for them to understand, and therefore I don't consider them real gamers) I simply refer to as the 'nu-gamer'.

Publishers like Eidos, Ubisoft, EA, see this market as just one huge walking bag of cash. They have very low standards, no understanding of past games, and will pretty much buy up anything with enough hype and graphics behind it. I can go on for pages making this case, citing countless examples, justifying my reasons, but suffice it to say, I can do nothing but pray that cooler heads prevail, and the Deus Ex IP stays on the PC where it began, where it belongs, and where anyone who cares about it is currently at. Is sullying the entire franchise worth your integrity for a few more pennies in your pocket? Does degrading the fantastic work of Warren Specter overall mean nothing to you, to simply chase some more sales in a group that doesn't know how to even pronounce Deus Ex, much less know what the game is?

I vehemently disagree. Call me a nu-gamer (even though I have played PC games for a very long time) I just don't want to "deal" with compatibility, stability, and playability issues when I am in the heat of battle, or swept up in the drama of a game. Sure, if you want to go and fork out several grand on a new computer for each new groundbreaking game, far be it from me to stop you. I just ask you to think of those of us who want to genuinely enjoy the game without having to wonder if Windows is going to crash, if we need to buy a brand new graphics card, or modify the BIOS for it to work properly. Call me a simpleton, I just want to be able to put the disk in, have it play properly (seamlessly) and enjoy the game.

I agree that the advent of the consoles have brought in "unfavorable" gamers, like that of the NFL/NHL games. Where fortune 500 corporations cater to the mind numbing games of the NFL, long before backwards compatibility so I CAN play IW on a 360, but what can we do? There are those of us out there who like consoles because it allows us to SIMPLY PLAY, with no worries, no glitches, and money out of our pockets which we know WILL work properly the first time.

This is just my opinion; this is not a rant, far from it. This is just a kind reminder of the kind of people you are talking to; the kind of people who are avid Deus Ex fans, but want it on a 360/PS3/etc... Sorry if I offended.

Radox Redux
20th Dec 2008, 02:29
Hi. I'm a jaded gamer. I'm cynical, bitter, and full of spite. I despise what has been done to gaming lately, and I target almost all of this vehement resentment solely at consoles. They've attracted a new breed of 'gamer' (I use that term lightly, as most of these people never cared about gaming until it was made simple enough for them to understand, and therefore I don't consider them real gamers) I simply refer to as the 'nu-gamer'.

I'm about as 'hardcore' (for lack of a better phrase) as a gamer as you'll likely find.... and one of the most jaded, bitter, spiteful and cynical entities I've yet to encounter... Though granted that's about most things, not just games. But seriously... you can't just generalise things like that... well you can, but not without looking a bit foolish.

I'm a console player, but I've been playing games for as long as video games have existed, and I know tons of people who have. I could list hundreds of reasons why I find consoles vastly superior to PC's but to do so would only be adding to the problem: that it's a matter of opinion and that people who choose to play games on a console are no less gamers than you.

This type of butthurt PC advocate, who assumes (often without any foundation) that games are somehow 'dumber' on consoles is annoyingly common, but thankfully only within there own mistaken circles these days. Granted, Invisible War is a fine example of what 'consolirisation' can do to a game. But the majority of games simply don't go in that direction.

And also, like it or not, consoles are coming closer with every iteration to surpassing PC's, but why am I bothering saying this? You've already filed that away as an impossibility right? It could never happen... Because that would be unthinkable! I'm just another dumb console gamer, spreading his propaganda. Because the future is set like that... Okay, I'm coming annoyingly close to sounding like a flamer now (not my intention) but all I'm saying is it's a very real likelyhood, whether you admit the possibility or not.

Larington
20th Dec 2008, 02:42
This is all part of the problem of development fear of turn based games. The big advantage with which being, in a turn based game the player has time to figure out any complexity and be sure that reasonable if not good decisions are being made. The move to real-time unfortunately has forced developers to re-evaluate complexity and focus on either relative basics or emergent complexity (IE Each individual gameplay mechanic is very easy to understand, its the combination that results in the real complexity).

As for Fallout 3, my understanding is that many of the NMA didn't think it was quite the travesty as they were expecting once they actually got to sit down and play it. By no means is it perfect, the lacklustre ending being a case in point (Though its good to hear one of the DLC episodes will address that) but it is no travesty - Unless your a turn-based elitist who thinks first person shooting is devil spawn. In particular, a claim has been made that moving a mouse so that reticule is over enemy to shoot is really dull but is that really any more or less dull than moving the mouse pointer so its over a button or square on the map? Really?

My real concern and it still exists since the last time I visited these forums regular, is that elements of gamingdom are still suffering from a bad case of prejudice (Look it up) and are writing the game off without the facts. I've seen this happen with Fallout 3s DRM, it apparently uses one of the milder forms of DRM that merely performs a disc check. Thats all. Yet there are folks who see the name Securom and instantly liken it to the devils abyss and don't give a carp which type of securom software is on the install disk... If its Securom, its automatically dirty. Filthy. Scum.

The real tragedy is that there are folks who have said that developers who can't accept piracy should just deal with it, or do something about it. The response? Many game publishers/developers are either changing their business model almost completely (The increasing move to MMOs despite the failure risk) or are moving to a platform that is percieved as 'safer'. Frankly, DRM doesn't beget piracy, its actually the other way around. Meanwhile, the PC gaming community is so busy questioning any evidence that suggests piracy is harmful to PC games whilst completely failing to give the same treatment to any evidence that makes the opposite claim (Even people who don't pirate games at all).

Its a real shame really, I want to develop games for the PC platform, but I suspect that once I finish up this degree I'm going to find that the few remaining developers making stuff for PC will either be casual games makers, MMO makers or have a shortage of positions for prospective candidates. I'm hoping my fears aren't justified and that I won't have to move out of the UK altogether to find the sort of position thats good for me and whichever company I might end up working for.

Also, though I have no interest in making or playing sports games, they do have one benefit when they are gauraunteed sellers - They can act as an opportunity for the publisher to have other projects running that are deemed more 'risky', things like Dead Space, Mirrors Edge and so on. Its just a shame that untested IPs keep getting their heads banged against the cristmas release bonanza insanity even though theres this perfectly valid summer period where students & schoolkids have loads of time on their hands and are more likely to make an impulse buy, especially on an untested product. Translation, if you really must release a game near the end of the year, at least do it in August/September.

singularity
20th Dec 2008, 11:08
Uranium, I've been playing video games ever since Megaman came to the NES, and firmly believe that interactive media is the way of the future.

Although I had a glorious run on the PC (and MAC), I am a console man and have been since the PC developers left me out in the cold. PC gaming in this day and age is vastly more time consuming, expensive, frustrating and cumbersome than console gaming. As I see it, I didn't jump ship, I simply evolved. Today, I'm more acurate with a pair of thumb-sticks on high sensitivity than a mouse and keyboard. But in the end, console vs. PC is nothing more than an arguement on preference. However, consoles didn't ruin games -- they are the only reason developers have the money needed to make games today -- the reason the age of the average video game player is 29 rather than 12.

Decline in video game quality? Every year there are thousands of movies made. Only a handful win Oscars. People aim to make money, friend-o. Every now and then, they sell you something worth your time. You are naive to think video games are (or will be) any different.

You couldn't pay me to touch another PC game. Between developers and companies treating me like a criminal due to software pirating, shelling out hundreds to keep my hardware updated to play new games, installing, online keys codes, software updates, patches, and a dwindeling online comunity, I'll take my 360 with wireless Live support any day. The PC gamers can have WoW all to themselves. True -- you have those who play only Halo and Rock Band and consider themselves among the gaming elite -- but there are still a substantial number of actual gamers. Once upon a time, you had to go to pain-staking efforts just to be priveleged enough to learn to read. Now there are books in every shop. You once had to go to great lengths to view moving pictures, and pay a great deal of money. Today we all have dvd players (or bluray palyers...) in our living rooms. Music used to be something you could only hear if it was preformed live. Today, we all have an ipod in our pocket. Consoles are a means of spreading our art to the masses. Like it or not, it is the future, and I would be apalled if DX3 didn't recognize this. I recomend you adapt, because it seems as if your frusteration is, in part, stemming from the fact that you are falling behind the curve.

As far as cyberpunk goes, all we've seen is some concept art for a game that is potentially a whole year down the line. I'm not going to nail the devs to the wall just yet, and haven't given up hope that they can deliver (at least aesthetically) on Gibson's vision. I'm am skeptical too, and expect them to foul up a great deal... but I'm not going to be slinging anything sharp and heavy until I see the game in motion. Despite my skepticism, I have liked everything I have seen thus far. When I see something I don't like, I'll voice my opinion, but I have to give credit where due -- thus far I'm impressed.

Necros
20th Dec 2008, 12:17
:scratch:
Thats an absurd statement. Splinter Cell is the antithesis of an action game.
I wouldn't go that far. :)

Radox Redux
20th Dec 2008, 17:15
We should set Uranium and Jellybelly against each other.

'Guy who thinks DX3 doesn't respect the setting' Versus 'Guy who thinks hardcore gamer will ruin the game.'

Jerion
20th Dec 2008, 17:22
I'll set up the match. 5 bucks to get in! Place your bets now! :D

nathanj
20th Dec 2008, 17:53
@ singularity ...the reason your more accurate with the joysticks on a console is because of aim assist. :) i agree with the aspect of stupid antitheft programs like securom but these are easily disables or gotten around with a quick google search. as far as hardware is concerned you have to be smart and NOT buy a dell or any other mass brand of computer. build your own or buy the parts and have someone else build it. my computer is going on 3 years old now and only having upgraded my video card i can still play any game today on the highest settings with good framerates. i even played crysis on high settings. (i dont have vista so i couldnt do the ultrahigh). console games are inferior. smaller levels. AI sometimes is scaled down. etc. as for hardware on consoles i remember the playstation, xbox ring o death, and damn if i didnt have issues with the sega saturn.


everyone seems to be under the impression that if they make a deep challenging game that people wont buy it. i think Sims is a micromanaging nightmare yet that game has sold 645 billion copies.

the problem comes with developers being pushed to pump out games as quickly as possible so that they can move on to the next one. this is mostly a publisher problem. companies that do most of their own publishing or have a strong influence with their publishers can take their time and take years to craft good games. half life 2 springs to mind. publishers need to let up on the developers and give them time to flesh out their games more. (are you listening EA).

fallout 3 also turned out to be a good game. the main quest is very short but that is a plus in my mind since i prefer the exploration aspect of the game. 90% of the games content you never see if you just do the main quest or the couple of quests at megaton or tenpenny.

the biggest thing for me is if a game has an SDK so that modders can fix issues. oblivion sucked, however with about 150 or so mods it was actually a very good game.

on a side note i was looking forward to buying the new GTA until i read that it was a crappy port and buggy as hell.

Larington
20th Dec 2008, 20:44
People calling GTA4 port crappy are usually exagerating. There are annoyances yeah, your effectively forced to create a rockstar-social club account and also a GFWLive account as well if you haven't. The first of those two being completely unneccesary unless you're using online features.

Meanwhile, the only issues I have in terms of bugs is a performance drop around some bridges and if I try joining a queue of traffic waiting at a red light I find the AI cars are incapable of recognising me as part of the queue and I get boxed in by AI drivers that have assumed I'm screwing around in the game. Also, yeah, on the large bridge I'll sometimes see a car spawned such that its garaunteed to fall off the side of the bridge. Thats the only real bug I've noticed.

Honestly, sometimes it seems as though we're too eager to assume a console to PC port has been messed up, which is sad and indicative of some of the elitism some PC gamers have developed over time (Note, only console I own is a Wii, 95% of my gaming is done on PC. Also, I'm not calling all PC gamers elitist, just a minority, as always, making the majority look bad) who the moment they hear the slightest murmer of a bad console port, or the minorest execution of a DRM system, they'll then spread news of this all too quickly without even bothering to check the facts. This was demonstrated by people pre-judging the DRM implementation on Fallout 3, for instance.

Kahlell
20th Dec 2008, 21:14
@ singularity ...the reason your more accurate with the joysticks on a console is because of aim assist. :) ...

... As far as hardware is concerned you have to be smart and NOT buy a dell or any other mass brand of computer. Build your own or buy the parts and have someone else build it...

... Console games are inferior. smaller levels. AI sometimes is scaled down. etc. as for hardware on consoles i remember the playstation, xbox ring o death, and damn if i didn't have issues with the sega saturn.

Given some of the things you stated, I felt like much of it characterized me well, and I should respond.

As for aiming, I always turn aim assist off (bugs me + improper target selection + too easy) and can more easily take out an enemy with ultra sensitive controller thumb stick settings, over a mouse any day. My rationale is a mouse you have to keep lifting it up and scrolling over the enemy until you have the cross hairs lined up. As for a controller its a seamless turn with the flick of a joystick, far easier in my opinion, and far less clunkier.

As for computers, what about those of us who simply don't want to deal with the hardware aspects. The graphics are virtually identical to a console, if not better (because the graphics are catered to the console hardware). Besides, buying a new computer, upgrading, or doing a self build takes lots of time and money. If you have nothing to do and plenty of disposable income, then by all means, build and modify to your hearts content. But if your a college student like myself, who also works full time, you don't have time to screw around with that crap. Thus my previous statement, plug and play.

As for console data, yes sometimes it is scaled down, thus the difference (i.e. Half Life 2) where a PC will have six to ten installation CD's, and a console only one. This in my opinion is simply a matter of practicality versus simply, "more-ness." As data compression software and physical optical storage increases (exponentially) we will eventually reach a point where we have more storage space then data we can fill it with. In my opinion if I have to sacrifice a few trees, maybe even terrain space, for a more easily playable/compact console version, I would opt for that any day.

Lastly when it comes to hardware, indeed XBOX did have many issues (I am on my third XBOX) unfortunately this comes back to simply trying to do it quickly (and half-assed because it is after all a Microsoft Product) because of deadlines. I agree that more time should be given to these products to get them right, over simply "getting them done." But that is a corporate issue (given I am a Business Major) this problem isn't going to change any time soon, unless a major competitor started doing it and could prove that they could make more money off of such a slower process. Regardless, once my 360 was working properly I haven't had a problem yet (Problems surfaced when I first received it, initially bad DVD Drive, second time around another bad DVD Drive, third times the charm). The whole idea is that there are no computability/stability issues like I chronically got when trying to use a PC. I love my console and wouldn't trade it in over a PC any day, even if that means small sacrifices of "more-ness" for ease of use. Does that truly make me less of a gamer? Practicality over functionality?

Regardless, I think both PC and Consoles have their places, and neither should be readily excluded any time soon.

K^2
20th Dec 2008, 21:47
As for aiming, I always turn aim assist off (bugs me + improper target selection + too easy) and can more easily take out an enemy with ultra sensitive controller thumb stick settings, over a mouse any day. My rationale is a mouse you have to keep lifting it up and scrolling over the enemy until you have the cross hairs lined up. As for a controller its a seamless turn with the flick of a joystick, far easier in my opinion, and far less clunkier.
*sigh* I guess that's what happens when people teach themselves to FPS. Online gaming is great, but there are things you can only pick up at a LAN party.

I've seen this kind of attitude before, way back in the days. Back then, there were people who thought they can play better with just the keyboard. WASD to move, arrows to aim. There is only one to teach these people. You play a deathmatch with them. You rip them a new one a few dozen times. I've never met a keyboarder whom I couldn't school with at least 4:1 kill ratio. Then offer switching to mouse. For the first 30 minutes they suck immeasurably. In another 30 minutes they get back to where they were. And in another hour they play better than ever before. They never switch back.

The trick with the mouse is to have the sensitivity way up high. You should be able to do a 360 without lifting wrist. If you cannot, increase sensitivity and try again. It might take a bit of time to get used to it, but it is worth it, truly.

If you are sill thinking that you are right. That you are some kind of prodigy who has mad joystick skills, I'd be happy to prove you very wrong. Pick a PC shooter with online play, hook it up with a gamepad of your choice, and I'll show you how natural it is to frag with a mouse.

As data compression software and physical optical storage increases (exponentially) we will eventually reach a point where we have more storage space then data we can fill it with
People have been saying that since, oh, early 80's.

"640K ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981

Yeah... Right. I also remember the days when I thought I could not possibly fill a 20GB hard drive. Right now my 1TB array is feeling kind of small.

Kahlell
21st Dec 2008, 00:36
You again.

Ignoring the ego trip, you are most certainly entitled to your opinion.
I guess the real test will be when full immersion becomes a reality.
Then its up to the fundamental control system to decide who is truly more talented; the raw electrochemical synapses of the mind.

Given I have a background in the special forces, I'd challenge you to the real thing, but that could prove "hazardous" to one's health.
I'm not looking for a pissing contest, I just wish to state my opinion and listen to others. I am not in the business of ego stroking, which Is how I feel you come across. If I am wrong, you have my sincerest apologies.
But, I have yet to see anything to the contrary. Again, just my opinion, But I'd like to keep this thread on topic.

In regards to storage. I'm talking about holographic "optical" storage, to clarify. Bonding information at the molecular to atomic level will allow us to store vast amounts of information, yottabytes or more.
The trick is doing the best with what we have now, and providing people the opportunity to interface/interact with that technology/information around them, with the ease and complexity of access that best suits the individual, not a minority or majority. Key word, "customization," the contrast between Console and PC provides this choice and the fundamental differences in how people interface with this information/technology.
Ultimately PC and Console are simply different sides of the same gaming coin, I just prefer one side to another, and you obviously do as well. What I think should come of this forum, is a consensus that people should be provided the opportunity to simply "choose."

gamer0004
21st Dec 2008, 11:29
What is it with you people calling people with different opinions than yourselves "ego" all the time here on this forum :scratch: ?

LatwPIAT
21st Dec 2008, 12:05
"640K ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981

Yeah... Right. I also remember the days when I thought I could not possibly fill a 20GB hard drive. Right now my 1TB array is feeling kind of small.

I can't help but point out that most people who have filled their large hard drives rarely fill them with things they have aquired through purchase.

By which I mean they all do large-scale image editing. I was not at all implying that any of them filled their hard drives with illegally downloaded TV series and music. No sir! Absolutley not!

I've never heard of anyone not in the image-editing ever filling their 500GB hard drives.

Spiffmeister
21st Dec 2008, 12:43
Personally I have to agree with Uranium about consoles :P I've played both and still nothing can compare to my keyboard and mouse, and no console game I've played can stack up to and of my top PC games (nb: this is my OPINION).

Having said that, the idea that consoles will ruin this game is something I can't understand. GTA4 is apparently quite a good PC conversion (only what I've heard). Mass Effect and KtoR2 both had in depth RPG elements, and decent story lines, though to be honest I haven't played through the hole campaigns. I've heard from other gamers that ME has a good PC conversion (I haven't played the PC version).

The amount of threads stacking up saying DX3 will be ruined is starting to get sad :( . While I agree that everyone has their own opinion, it would be nice at least to give EM a chance.


There was a lot of Hearsay in that post I know >.<

Red
21st Dec 2008, 13:01
I'm sorry, this will seem like a troll post but I really didn't intend to make it that way:

Since you are all arguing about what is ego/opinion/fact, I believe that Maddox just about sums it up:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=boiling_blood



Well that's just your opinion:

[a nice mspaint picture which I wont paste here, go see it on the link above.]

Well that's just your opinion LOL!!11111one

This one pisses me off just thinking about it. If you slit my throat right now you'd get shot in the eye with boiling blood. Any time you say something sucks around someone who disagrees, they try to validate their taste in sh_itty music/movies/clothing by reminding you that you still only speak for yourself, as if their opinions are in jeopardy of being monopolized by your own. Everyone already knows it's my opinion by virtue of the fact that I said it, no need to restate the obvious you dopey tw_at.

Spiffmeister
21st Dec 2008, 13:07
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=boiling_blood

Makes me 'lol'.

NK007
21st Dec 2008, 14:34
Well, cyberpunk isn't really mainstream, it's more of a niche market (Reality TV and CSI is mainstream.) and using the same argument I could claim that the Matrix invented cyberpunk (My argument would be weaker than yours, but wouls still stand.)

I don't disagree, he is a cornerstone in cyberpunk, especially literature, but he didn't invent it, he just inspired the majority of the later works (Man, I have to re-read GitS and look for Neuromancer references, I'd be supprised if they weren't there. Remind me to look for Blade Runner references too.) up until the point where 33% of the Matrix is heavily inspired by Neuromancer ("the Matrix" Molly/Trinity and the Reality/Simulation theme) with 33% original material and 33% GitS (Neo awakening from the Matrix, Neo jumping off a building, Neo waking up from his slumber, the lobby shootout, the "Matrix" raining code, Agent Smith landing on the roof in the begining of the movie, the exploding melons in a marketplace*)
And whether Blade Runner flopped or not doesn't have anything to do with if it invented the genre or not, that's like saying "the fist webcomic wasn't very popular so it wasn't the first" (I might be pulling that alleogy a bit too far...)


The whole dark-and-looming style? Yeah, Neuromancer co-invented that with Blade Runner. Willim Gibson saw Blader Runner and exclaimed damnation over beating him to the punch with dystopic societies and Film Noir inspied visuals. I love that too. Heck, even GitS:SAC, which is pretty bright in comparison still has that dark flair, especially during the night. The sprawling markets from Blade Runner and Neuromancer, you just can be cyberpunk enouhg without those, you need the markets and underground bars with shady people.

*Oshii, who directed the 1995 GitS movie and helped write GitS:SAC:2nd GiG seems to have taken up the challenge the Warchovski Brother proposed and worked in several Matrix References in quite a few episodes, including #1 and #4.

OMG, I cant believe I have to be the first to tell you to STFU ABOUT GitS!!!

LatwPIAT
21st Dec 2008, 16:54
OMG, I cant believe I have to be the first to tell you to STFU ABOUT GitS!!!

Will you be the only one?

Maybe we should only talk about DX3 here? You know, discussing Neuromancer, or Blade Runner, or Bubblegum Crisis, or the Matrix, or Snowcrash, or Armitage III, or Serial Experiments Lain, or Burning Chrome, or Johnny Mnemonic, or Oni, or, you know, Deus Ex and Deus Ex: Invisible War, have nothing to do with DX3 at all.

Kahlell
21st Dec 2008, 20:04
What is it with you people calling people with different opinions than yourselves "ego" all the time here on this forum :scratch: ?

I do not mind different opinions; in fact I welcome it.
But, it is when I see the puerperal, me, me, me, I, I, I; where it grows old rapidly.
"I can school 4:1, I can beat anybody, You should pick up a book sometime, etc..."

The constant "I can, you can't. I'm superior, you're not;" I don't want to deal with.

Now if someone says, "I think a mouse allows me to react faster and take out enemies quicker over a controller," Then I am happy to listen.Or in cases of "I don't think that is right, or that doesn't work, because..." That's fine. I just have issues when people seem to be using threads like these to stroke their own egos. I apologize if I am taking this all wrong, but this is how it appears to me. Everyone else seems to be honestly expressing their opinion which I appreciate and respect. I just feel the second you try to promote yourself over your idea, your idea/opinion suffers because of it.

Just my honest opinion.

Kahlell
21st Dec 2008, 20:07
Will you be the only one?

Maybe we should only talk about DX3 here? You know, discussing Neuromancer, or Blade Runner, or Bubblegum Crisis, or the Matrix, or Snowcrash, or Armitage III, or Serial Experiments Lain, or Burning Chrome, or Johnny Mnemonic, or Oni, or, you know, Deus Ex and Deus Ex: Invisible War, have nothing to do with DX3 at all.

Agreed, What about DX3? Isn't that what this site is for?

NK007
21st Dec 2008, 20:13
I'm sorry, but it's difficult for me to compare this great game to a ****ty anime. Please do take kindly my comments.

spm1138
21st Dec 2008, 20:24
It's a funny thing NK007, you're the only person I've even remotely had the urge to suggest not posting to.

Bloodwolf806
21st Dec 2008, 20:43
And for the love of god, do not make a single sacrifice for consoles. Make a PC game, and nothing but a PC game. PORT it to consoles AFTERWARDS as a SECOND THOUGHT if you have to, but always put your PC crowd's interests first.

Love.

Isn't happening. If anything, EM will put the console versions FIRST, since that is where the money is at. This will probably sell 2X better on 360 than on PC. Just sayin'.

NK007
21st Dec 2008, 21:06
It's a funny thing NK007, you're the only person I've even remotely had the urge to suggest not posting to.

Haha yes, I am a controversial figure I guess. It's kind of hard for me to not express my opinions on someone when they go too far, even when it's not verbal diarrhea, but rather textual diarrhea :rasp: ...

spm1138
22nd Dec 2008, 00:59
Haha yes, I am a controversial figure I guess. It's kind of hard for me to not express my opinions on someone when they go too far, even when it's not verbal diarrhea, but rather textual diarrhea :rasp: ...

Controversial figure?

Yeah. You're just like Bill Hicks and Ghandi :rolleyes:

I don't think you're "inclined to dispute".

You just haven't been making terribly well thought out posts is all.

For you to then turn around and tell someone else to shut up is quite funny :whistle:

NK007
22nd Dec 2008, 11:21
I'm just stating my opinion. When someone won't shut up about some influence of a crappy anime that is related to one of the best game worlds ever, it irritates me and I have to speak up, especially when he does it in every one of his posts in every topic.

In fact, I had a lot more to say about it, but I thought my opinions thorough so well that I had gone down from two paragraphs to just 3 words: STFU about GitS. I think this fully embodies what I think about the subject.

Beta55
22nd Dec 2008, 13:51
The game's already in full time production. It's going to come out for Xbox 360, PS3, and PC no matter what we say at this point. However I don't see why they can't make a game just as sophisticated. Mass Effect was fairly sophisticated for a console game. However there should be slightly unnoticed added benefits of using a PC. Like Q and E make you lean left and right, the numpad allows players to enter numbers in faster. One can select weapons from 1-9 on the keyboard, etc.

*COUGH* Sixaxis *COUGH*