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dark_angel_7
22nd Oct 2008, 11:44
http://www.edge-online.com/news/deus-ex-was-%E2%80%9Ckinda-slow%E2%80%9D-says-deus-ex-3-dev

Deus Ex 3 lead game designer Jean-Francois Dugas has been telling Edge about how the game will differentiate from its predecessors, full interview and exclusive images will be revealed in the new issue of Edge, on sale October 23 in the UK, and within a week or so in North America and Continental Europe.

Make sure that if you get it you upload scans ASAP! :p

JulianP
22nd Oct 2008, 11:49
Dugas says the original Deus Ex was “kind of slow”. He added, “There weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience.”

I'm not sure I like the sound of that. I find Deus Ex plenty exciting.

DXeXodus
22nd Oct 2008, 11:57
Thanks for the link dark_angel_7 :thumbsup:
(I just made title of the thread a little less misleading)

Reading now :)


At this point we don’t know exactly which platforms we’re going to be out on. The PC, we’ll be there for sure

Absolute YAY for PC development first and foremost. :D

I am just holding all of my fingers and toes that they don't turn this into a shoot-em up.

ZylonBane
22nd Oct 2008, 12:09
Dugas says the original Deus Ex was “kind of slow”. He added, “There weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience.”
I want to hurt this man. Not a lot mind you. Just... enough.

Larington
22nd Oct 2008, 12:13
I must admit the simulation = not ideal bit alarms me, because as far as I can discern, part of the reason DX1 worked so well is because at time it felt like it was doing all it could to simulate that future world rather than just the ideologies of the setting, though its only now that this actually occurs to me.
We'll see, maybe I'm just getting more paranoid as I spend more time on this forum.

Jerion
22nd Oct 2008, 12:14
I want to hurt this man. Not a lot mind you. Just... enough.

I hold him, you hit him? :whistle:

DXeXodus
22nd Oct 2008, 12:21
Now now. Lets be nice to our esteemed developers :)

After all, if we take them out now then there is no hope of getting DX3.

Jerion
22nd Oct 2008, 12:27
Now now. Lets be nice to our esteemed developers :)

After all, if we take them out now then there is no hope of getting DX3.

Hehe, true. I hope they don't try to make it too fast paced to make up for a shorter game. :)

gamer0004
22nd Oct 2008, 12:36
"There weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments."
What? No, seriously, What?! Not enough memorable moments? I think DX was filled with memorable moments (when there are threads like "most memorable gaming moments" almost all are related to DX). Killing Anna, Gunther ("sticks and stones"), Simons... There is a reason why even I remembered nearly all names in DX after the first time I played it (in contrast with most games, including IW). I think this - again - clearly shows that their "analysis" (if you can call it that) is very, very far off.

DXeXodus
22nd Oct 2008, 12:41
To be honest, I also disagreed with the "memorable moments" comment. I agree to an extent with the "slow paced" comment, but I believe that was one of the beauties of the game. That slower paced movement between critical points. Making careful decisions along the way. I don't want to run around dodging bombs and diving through doorways. Not in a DX game.

El_Bel
22nd Oct 2008, 13:03
In an interview with Edge magazine, published tomorrow, Dugas says the original Deus Ex was “kind of slow”. He added, “There weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience.”


There were hundreds of exciting and memorable moments mr. JFD (password is bionifman? :D) are you sure you are a fan of the first? But yes it was slow and i dont have a problem with making combat a little faster as long as a)combat is not dumbed down(auto-regen,auto-regen,auto-regen,auto-regen) and b)other parts of the game are not speed upped (city exploration for example). I will expect some answers before i quite hope, but i will not wait for the game(or the demo) to be released to learn if the new features suck.

Fledz
22nd Oct 2008, 13:10
There weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience.”

Is this guy on crack? And he's the lead designer? Well this is going to end well :mad2:

foxberg
22nd Oct 2008, 13:27
This is just another nail in the coffin of the expectations. This guy doesn't have a clue why DX appealed to so many gamers and why it won the best game of the year award. Why not just make DX3: Doom Edition? (not that I don't like Doom series, but you don't eat ice cream with a burger, do you?)

DX3
22nd Oct 2008, 13:36
They are talking about Pc release for sure but console release not sure, that sounds a bit ty if you ask me, ok perhaps the control mechanism is differnt but that shouldn't be a problem.
Whats even more strange is the fact that these next-gen consoles where to stimulate people to play games without having to upgrade all the time and so the personal computer (PC) was to become more personal use again, also meaning game design.

So don't tell us that the game of the PC version is cheaper to compensate the hardware and software issues, because it isn't, people have to spend more and more on ty hardware only to change their hardware again for a couple of hundred bucks to get the job done for a new game or something.
We haven't even taken full advantage of the hardware capabillities of the XBox 360 and PS 3.

Try and think in'' what if I could never spend money on a holiday because of all the internet and other cost's and what not, that i can at least play a game on a next gen machine wich wasn't cheap to finally keep my PC personal and my console for relaxing and entertainment.

And if the controle mechanism is such a key point make a keyboard and mouse port for the next gen machines to compensate the feeling.

ZenAbra
22nd Oct 2008, 13:38
Wow.

My faith in Eidos Montreal just took a major dive.


It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience.

No S&*t Sherlock!

Who on earth hired this clown to make a Deus Ex game? :mad2:


To be honest, I also disagreed with the "memorable moments" comment. I agree to an extent with the "slow paced" comment, but I believe that was one of the beauties of the game. That slower paced movement between critical points. Making careful decisions along the way.

QFT

rynn taylor
22nd Oct 2008, 13:42
"There weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments."
What? No, seriously, What?! Not enough memorable moments? I think DX was filled with memorable moments (when there are threads like "most memorable gaming moments" almost all are related to DX). Killing Anna, Gunther ("sticks and stones"), Simons... There is a reason why even I remembered nearly all names in DX after the first time I played it (in contrast with most games, including IW). I think this - again - clearly shows that their "analysis" (if you can call it that) is very, very far off.

I think most people on this forum would agree that DX1 is full of memorable moments.

It is a good point about remembering characters' names. There are unmemorable games where I have not cared for characters and have forgotten their names after finishing the game - but I remember a lot of characters from DX1.

Larington
22nd Oct 2008, 13:42
I'm honestly not convinced that simulation and game are mutually exclusive, I'm pretty sure that the two can merge quite well.

LeatherJacket
22nd Oct 2008, 13:43
I think he's right when you consider the length of the game vs the number of exciting and memorable moments. I think the original left out a lot in terms of presenting the game. I felt the teaser for DX3 was pretty exciting :D. I certainly wouldn't mind more as long as it doesn't mean we lose the more importants parts of a DX game. I find lots of simple games have really great presentation, great cutscenes or boss character encounter scenes.

slamelov
22nd Oct 2008, 13:47
I can't believe it. "DX1 Kinda slow, no memorable moments"... all my hopes about DX3 are gone. These guys want to make a typical dumbed FPS full of "exciting moments" like megaexplosions, autoliferecover, linearity and easy gameplay...

Jerion
22nd Oct 2008, 13:52
You know, I read this awesome quote today.

It went like this:

"Ultimately, we were not terribly surprised. Taking things out of context is what the Internet is for."

Kaze103
22nd Oct 2008, 14:07
You know, I read this awesome quote today.

It went like this:

"Ultimately, we were not terribly surprised. Taking things out of context is what the Internet is for."

Funny, I read that quote too.

Why don't we wait for the review to come out rather than going off a headline made to generate shock? Come now, we saw the preview of the PCZone preview was WAY off when it came to facts.

Larington
22nd Oct 2008, 14:15
It doesn't help when we get given articles like the one linked to above, which fail to give anything more than soundbites. Its like sticking your hand in a hornets nest but assuming you aren't going to get stung.

Reading it I wonder if I'm effectively being manipulated into buying the magazine out of some sense of panic or "slowing down to stare at the car crash" curiosity.

Err, to make it clear I'm not saying I think the game is going to be a car crash, but, you know, they (The magazine editors) probably could have chosen less controversial things to transfer to an online format whilst stripping away parts of the context.

René
22nd Oct 2008, 14:16
^^ Yep.

JF said: “There weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience.”
Edge headline: “the first Deus Ex was "kinda slow".”

Not really the same thing, eh? Looks to me like a sensationalist headline to get site traffic. I can't blame them I guess but I really wish people did a little research rather than jumping to conclusions. For example, in the same post they write: “But he said developer Eidos Montreal would not attempt to dumb down the much-loved RPG-shooter franchise.”

Larington
22nd Oct 2008, 14:21
Speaking of Edge magazine, it'd be really nice if somewhere on that site there was, you know, a picture of the front cover of the magazine so I know what I'm looking for in the shop.

And if this is anything to go by, they need to take more care with their headlines on their website, especially with potential flashpoint issues like something relating to expectations for a sequel to one of the most highly rated games ever.

Absentia
22nd Oct 2008, 14:27
Hm.
I think that comment was a pretty crazy thing to say, but I have enough faith in DX3 that it's not going to outweigh it, just perhaps diminish it a little.

ZenAbra
22nd Oct 2008, 14:28
René, you sound like you're defending the following statement:

"It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience."

Um... besides doing your homework on Deus Ex itself, did the team study the game's lineage and its unique genre?

Did you study the Ultima Underworld, System Shock & Thief games?

Are you familiar with the term "immersive simulation," a term used extensively by Warren Spector to describe the type of game Deus Ex represents?

A huge part of the magic and beauty of Deus Ex was its more deliberate, methodical pace and gameplay. This is because, yes, it was designed as much as a simulation as a game.

This was a Good Thing and not something a designer should be criticizing in early interviews.

slamelov
22nd Oct 2008, 14:48
^^ Yep.

JF said: “There weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience.”
Edge headline: “the first Deus Ex was "kinda slow".”

Not really the same thing, eh? Looks to me like a sensationalist headline to get site traffic. I can't blame them I guess but I really wish people did a little research rather than jumping to conclusions. For example, in the same post they write: “But he said developer Eidos Montreal would not attempt to dumb down the much-loved RPG-shooter franchise.”

The sentence "Kinda Slow" is from EDGE and not from Dugas?

He said that he will not dumb down the franchise, but we all know that DX3 will use auto-life-regen.

El_Bel
22nd Oct 2008, 14:54
Marketing has deferent words for everything. Dumping down could become "lighten the gameplay".

Larington
22nd Oct 2008, 14:55
I think maybe its an issue of getting the balance right, that maybe the combat in DX wasn't exciting enough, but certainly not an issue of 'often enough' since thats really up to the player if they regularly choose the guns blazing approach or not (One of the beauties of DX1).

I definately think we're being too quick to assume that DX1 being described as "kinda slow" suddenly means that DX3 is going to be the exact opposite - I really don't believe that'll be the case, even after reading that sound bite quality comment in the preview of the preview.

But I've been burned by preview articles before, I once concluded from a preview article for Unreal 2, that the game would provide a selection of missions only some of which you'd be given time to do in a single play through, affecting which groups would help or hinder towards the end...
It turned out that you'd help ALL of those factions as part of a linear progression, which was dissapointing for me and for one element of still unexplored potential in the games industry (heck, even Mass Effect missed that opportunity to a certain extent).

Jerion
22nd Oct 2008, 14:57
The sentence "Kinda Slow" is from EDGE and not from Dugas?

He said that he will not dumb down the franchise, but we all know that DX3 will use auto-life-regen.

Rene works with the man. I think he would know. ;)

slamelov
22nd Oct 2008, 15:02
So, that's not a fair attitude from EDGE, I think they should change it.

René
22nd Oct 2008, 15:04
René, you sound like you're defending the following statement:

I'm cautioning against jumping to conclusions based off sound bites rather than educating yourself and reading the entire articles. Unfortunately for now, all the articles are in print and not online so people's access to the full information is potentially limited compared to the ease of the Internet. Thus, we get token sound bites to make you want to buy the magazine. At least that's what I'd guess they're hoping for.

WhatsHisFace
22nd Oct 2008, 15:07
Well this explains the Call of Duty health regeneration and the cutting of the stealth system.

Deus Ex: Invisible War 2 confirmed.

Jerion
22nd Oct 2008, 15:08
Well this explains the Call of Duty health regeneration and the cutting of the stealth system.

Deus Ex: Invisible War 2 confirmed.

Welcome. Have you read the rest of the thread?

René
22nd Oct 2008, 15:09
Welcome. Have you read the rest of the thread?

Or this thread? http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=80786

slamelov
22nd Oct 2008, 15:10
I'm cautioning against jumping to conclusions based off sound bites rather than educating yourself and reading the entire articles. Unfortunately for now, all the articles are in print and not online so people's access to the full information is potentially limited compared to the ease of the Internet. Thus, we get token sound bites to make you want to buy the magazine. At least that's what I'd guess they're hoping for.

But the text in that link reads:


In an interview with Edge magazine, published tomorrow, Dugas says the original Deus Ex was “kind of slow”. He added, “There weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience.”


So, or EDGE is lying or really Dugas said that. Why should EDGe lye?

René
22nd Oct 2008, 15:10
Or this thread? http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=80786

And there's also a translation of one article on http://www.deus3x.com/.

slamelov
22nd Oct 2008, 15:13
Or this thread? http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=80786

In that thread confirm auto-health.

ZylonBane
22nd Oct 2008, 15:15
Steering the design away from simulation toward "gaminess" is a huge part of why I hated Invisible War and Deadly Shadows.

Harvey Smith himself has acknowledged that they made a huge mistake stripping Invisible War down to its pure gameplay elements. The simulationist approach they took on the original DX, with its many redundant and overlapping systems, was exactly what made it feel so "real world" and immersive.

slamelov
22nd Oct 2008, 15:21
I think if you lost the "inmersion simulation" from first DX, you will have the same "success" that DX IW. For "once in a lifetime", hear the fans. May be initial sales could be great with a "dumbed down" game, but probably you could get a great success in long term if the game really rocks. A great game with SDk and editor, and multiplayer, could sell for years.

ZenAbra
22nd Oct 2008, 15:34
René, honestly, it looks like you're dodging the question.

We're only getting sound bites from questionable resources and we should be wary of committing our opinions based on those sound bits. I get it.

That's not the question.

In a quote -- not a paraphrase or a headline created by a media source -- your lead designer criticized Deus Ex for being "kinda slow" and more like a "simulation" rather than a "game."

Are you defending this criticism or not? It looks like you are.

If this quote from your lead designer -- and it is a quote -- is an inaccurate representation of Eidos Montreal's approach to Deus Ex 3, you need to say so directly and not dance around the issue.

And again I ask the more meaningful question: Did Eidos Montreal study Deus Ex's lineage? Did you study Underworld, System Shock & Thief when considering the style and pace of Deus Ex 3? Are you familiar with Warren Spector's genre definition for Deus Ex, "Immersive Simulation"?

René
22nd Oct 2008, 15:47
The overall feeling I get is that people are worried DX3 is more IW/GoW than DX1. This is is not true. DX3 is more DX1 than anything. I've said this before but it bears repeating.

First off, yes some things are changing:

-Auto health regen (although we haven't been told exactly how this will work...)
-Stealth to line-of-sight and sound instead of darkness
-Contextual third person elements

Maybe even just a slight change to one of these is a deal-breaker for you and I can't change that so I'm sorry. However, if you think DX1 is much more than these three elements, then you will be happy:

-Different ways to solve any objective depending on your play style (social, hacking, stealth, or action)
-Customization of your character (augmentations) and weapons
-Deep story with a strong consipracy
-Lots of social interaction with numerous characters
-Consequences to your actions that affect things down the line
-A near future (Cyberpunk) setting
-Open levels with limited load times (think DX1 not IW)
-Random explorable elements with earned experience points
-Global travel
-More stuff I'm forgetting

Don't forget to check out the images (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=80886) since they speak in their own way as well. And before you go crazy about Barrett, don't forget DX1 had Gunther. ;)

Larington
22nd Oct 2008, 15:51
That last post seriously needs transcribing to the 'what rene said' thread.

ZylonBane
22nd Oct 2008, 15:52
René must be coming to dread every time the devs open their mouths.

And since he mentioned this--
"Stealth to line-of-sight and sound instead of darkness"

The original Deus Ex AI awareness system supported line-of-sight and sound and darkness. So it appears that DX3 will be using a primitive, inferior system.

Larington
22nd Oct 2008, 15:54
Actually the darkness system didn't make complete sense because AI potentially had access to night vision goggles but never used them...

Oh, and for some reason environment suits and night goggles didn't have an off switch if I remember rightly.

René
22nd Oct 2008, 16:00
In a quote -- not a paraphrase or a headline created by a media source -- your lead designer criticized Deus Ex for being "kinda slow" and more like a "simulation" rather than a "game."

Are you defending this criticism or not? It looks like you are.

If this quote from your lead designer -- and it is a quote -- is an inaccurate representation of Eidos Montreal's approach to Deus Ex 3, you need to say so directly and not dance around the issue.

There are aspects of DX1 that are more based around simluation, such as your shooting ability. As clarified already, stats have been removed from the act of shooting and instead relies on your ability to target with your mouse and keyboard. So that part is true and you may not like it but it's a desicion that's been made so I'm sorry. However stats have not been removed from you building your character or modifying weapons. There may be other examples of stats/simulation like this that I don't know about but that's where I think he's coming from with that statement.

And yeah I guess I am defending it. Maybe I'm biased but I also realize that DX1, as good as it was/is, came out eight years ago and I actually wouldn't mind some elements being updated as long as the core values are respected (see post above).

In terms of the dev team's approach to the game, can I ask without any sarcasm intended, what do you really know? Have you read the whole articles in Edge, PC Zone, Joystik, etc, or are you forming an opinion off a selected quote? If you have read one of them then you are more informed than most so share your opinion as to the team's approach to the game. You're not here every day to see the research and work they do so I can't prove that they care, but as we already know, Sheldon's involved and Warren and Harvey have been spoken to. I'm not sure what else I can say on that topic.


And again I ask the more meaningful question: Did Eidos Montreal study Deus Ex's lineage? Did you study Underworld, System Shock & Thief when considering the style and pace of Deus Ex 3? Are you familiar with Warren Spector's genre definition for Deus Ex, "Immersive Simulation"?

Yes.



PS: I don't think he said "kinda slow" - that was Edge paraphrasing.

René
22nd Oct 2008, 16:03
René must be coming to dread every time the devs open their mouths.

Nah, this is kind of fun! *slits wrists* Besides, it's not what the devs are saying, it's how the online media is posting things.


The original Deus Ex AI awareness system supported line-of-sight...

I'm not so sure about that. I can recall countless times where a guard was literally a couple feet in front of me but didn't see me since I was in shadows.

foxberg
22nd Oct 2008, 16:21
Actually the darkness system didn't make complete sense because AI potentially had access to night vision goggles but never used them...


Agree, LOS system makes more sense. Try to hide in shadows or darkness playing a game that features an advanced AI - Splinter Cell, for example - you'll go far...:(

Larington
22nd Oct 2008, 16:26
Of course, using a sound & line of sight system potentially puts added pressure onto getting the AI right (Especially if you want a believable interaction between the player and AI investigating a possible incursion), and creates opportunities for whole new kinds of mistakes.

Whether its a right choice or not? I remain positive, but I suspect this will be something only the history books will be able to comment on with any reliability.

I remember playing one of the early Thief games some time ago, and I was in a situation where I was sitting in the corner of a dark area, 2 guards trying to hunt me down and one of them was literally walking against Garrett without seeing him - It didn't make sense and it never will. Aside from the occasional occurance of that though, the background and reasoning for Garrets abilities mitigated most of the issues with the hiding in darkness concept, but it doesn't quite work when you extend it to modern day worlds, or ones with night vision monsters.

ZenAbra
22nd Oct 2008, 16:29
In terms of the dev team's approach to the game, can I ask without any sarcasm intended, what do you really know?

Not much, I readily admit, but that's precisely why I'm asking such direct and specific questions.

If your company chooses to present limited information via overseas print publications without a corresponding online public relations plan, I'm afraid you're in the position of dealing with the inevitable consequences.

When your lead designer makes statements which a media source encloses with quotations, you either have to defend or clarify those statements or specifically detail how and why the media source got it wrong.

We're human beings and we're excited about this franchise. If you present us such limited glimpses into the game, you better believe we'll ponder, speculate and discuss.

And so I really appreciate your detailed responses here.

I'm not a raving, assuming-the-worst fanboy. None of the specific changes in your above post are "deal breakers" for me (although each one is a little disappointing).

However, I did not have a good feeling from the collective perception created by those changes along with your lead designer's unclarified criticism of the original Deus Ex as too much a "simulation."

I really feel for you, René. This has gotta be one of the most sloppy and ineffective media rollouts of an anticipated game I've ever seen. And unfortunately, you're on the front line to deflect the harshest blows from the community response. Hang in there.

WildcatPhoenix
22nd Oct 2008, 16:37
I think it's clear how strongly the passions of the DX fanbase run when you see people frothing at the mouth every time a single (mis)quote gets thrown out there about DX3's development. I definitely don't envy the developers when it comes to trying to appease everyone's massive expectations while still coming out with something fresh and original.

That being said, regardless of how badly I want to know every little detail about DX3, the fact remains that the game is still a year (probably more) away from release. I remember when Invisible War came out; the developers promised a lot of things that did not turn out to be true in the final product (remember those screenshots we all went crazy over back in '03?)

Honestly, my initial gut reaction to the images from PC Zone was not positive (mainly concerning the neo-renaissance NPCs... I understand the need for a unique artistic vision, but this just reeks of Bioshock to me) I'm also very very uneasy about "bungee tentacles" and "multi-kill" augmentations.

But without going too far down that path, I think we really have to wait for more media before jumping to too many conclusions. I guess we're finally witnessing how badly the community got burned by DX:IW. Hopefully DX3 won't be more of the same.

-Wildcat

René
22nd Oct 2008, 16:41
We're human beings and we're excited about this franchise. If you present us such limited glimpses into the game, you better believe we'll ponder, speculate and discuss.

And so I really appreciate your detailed responses here.

You bet, and that's why I'm here. I'm glad we can have an intelligent conversation. Thanks to you too, and I hope I answered things for you. If not you can always send me a PM.

AaronJ
22nd Oct 2008, 16:56
I'd like to ask the people who were around the IWar forums around this time of its release: Did things go like this?

Larington
22nd Oct 2008, 16:57
Can't honestly say I was around for that (Thank goodness, I merely heard about it from some third party website, was too busy being absorbed by Planetside at the time I think), but I think when the riot really kicked off, it was when the demo/beta/whatever of IW was released and everyone suddenly saw the full horror of the gulf between what they expected...

...And what they got.

ZylonBane
22nd Oct 2008, 16:58
I'm not so sure about that. I can recall countless times where a guard was literally a couple feet in front of me but didn't see me since I was in shadows.
I meant that the guards have to be looking at you and there has to be enough light for them to see you. If they're looking at you but you're in shadow, or you're in light but behind them, they wouldn't see you. It's all part of the simulationist design philosophy that made DX so memorable.


Can't honestly say I was around for that (Thank goodness, I merely heard about it from some third party website, was too busy being absorbed by Planetside at the time I think), but I think when the riot really kicked off, it was when the demo/beta/whatever of IW was released and everyone suddenly saw the full horror of the gulf between what they expected...

...And what they got.
Oh man, I can still remember the carnage on the Ion Storm forums when the IW demo came out. It was the first demo I'm aware of that actually sparked mass cancellation of preorders. And the devs were just in shock. They'd spent years in their little groupthink bubble, convinced that they'd made a worthy successor to Deus Ex, and the wave of hate threw them into confused disarray. It was awesome and horrible to behold.

AaronJ
22nd Oct 2008, 16:59
Can't honestly say I was around for that (Thank goodness), but I think when the riot really kicked off, it was when the demo/beta/whatever of IW was released and everyone suddenly saw the full horror of the gulf between what they expected...

...And what they got.

With the way things are piling up now...could it be worse?

gamer0004
22nd Oct 2008, 17:08
With the way things are piling up now...could it be worse?

Many fans who were there at the Ion Storm foums say what happend with IW is happening now with DX3... So prepare :D

Larington
22nd Oct 2008, 17:09
Oh yes, most certainly.

Rene could let it spill over into the schools and churches; let the bodies pile up in the streets. :rolleyes:

AaronJ
22nd Oct 2008, 17:27
Oh yes, most certainly.

Rene could let it spill over into the schools and churches; let the bodies pile up in the streets. :rolleyes:

In the end, we'll beg Warren to save us.

Larington
22nd Oct 2008, 17:30
And Disney will veto a dark cyberpunk world.

Kidding of course, I have no idea what would happen.

midna1
22nd Oct 2008, 17:34
[QUOTE=JulianP;864872]Dugas says the original Deus Ex was “kind of slow”. He added, “There weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience.”

**** i hope they don't make 'project snowblind' part 2 :mad2: They need to RPG it to the max! not COD 5 'spaz em up'. Just watch GIS SAC 1+2 + Innocence + Solid State Soc and rip accordingly.

AaronJ
22nd Oct 2008, 17:36
**** i hope they don't make 'project snowblind' part 2 :mad2: They need to RPG it to the max! not COD 5 'spaz em up'

We are aware of that.

Oh, and Midna....did you play DXMP under the name "Bring-It!!!!!!!"?

midna1
22nd Oct 2008, 17:43
We are aware of that.

Oh, and Midna....did you play DXMP under the name "Bring-It!!!!!!!"?

No my tag was "goldenballs" see :lol: **** And with the new concept art i didnt see any flying cars like blade-runner. Just an underground train system. They need to integrate proper futuristic vehicles into the core gameplay like a Flashback jetbike or jetpacks or a versa-tran-3000 or a proper anti-grav maglev not a stupid old train

Bluey71
22nd Oct 2008, 17:46
I'd like to ask the people who were around the IWar forums around this time of its release: Did things go like this?

I was on the Ion Storm forums for a while before and after IW was released.

I can remember fans being concerned - much as we are now, questioning pretty much every detail that got released. Cant remember a great deal other than when the demo came out - thats when the ***** did hit the fan.

Edit - As far as things being the same I would say no. Looking at the Zone mag preview, EM has started off by addressing some of the major things that was wrong with IW. Like the awful story in IW. Of course, I cannot say for definate that DX3 will be a great DX game, and possibly it wont be, I dont know - but I think so far I would put money on it being better than IW.

midna1
22nd Oct 2008, 18:05
Hey I thought IW was really good - if they had put proper loading times in it on xbox. You had a complex story tree with choice and consequence and redundancy. If Montreal have already locked the DE3 concept then they already have the game structure. Lets hope it's not linear levels. You should be able to play the game through several times and take different paths. Not like COD5 ****

serjo
22nd Oct 2008, 18:07
I'd like to ask the people who were around the IWar forums around this time of its release: Did things go like this?

I think at the time fans had more faith in the developers. After all it was the original team and the fans hadn't been disappointed yet.

If you look at the early IW screens (http://www.playfuls.com/screenshots/gamespace_469_5_screenshots_Deus_Ex_Invisible_War.html) you can see that the interface looked very different...looks like it had localized damage system in place. After new screens, controversial info such as uni-amo, and later the demo people did start to freak out.

Jerion
22nd Oct 2008, 18:08
@midna1:

Why are you comparing DX3 to CoD 5? :scratch:

The are two completely different types of games.

rhalibus
22nd Oct 2008, 18:10
The fundamental aspect of Deus Ex was the concept of an immersive world. Both of those words matter:

Immersive: So many options, interactive components and real consequences that the player can believe they could solve any problem simply by thinking in a logical, real world manner.

World: Huge levels, innumerable NPCs, diverse locations--a feeling that the player is just one person in a fully functioning society.

Both of these terms combine together to make the player believe they are actually there in real life, not in a game. Both terms are important and must support each other; take away one and the other fails as well. Graphics, visual effects or even set-pieces can enhance, but never substitute for these terms.

We should really avoid judgement until we read all the upcoming articles; but we must all continue to stress this un-separable aspect of Deus Ex.

serjo
22nd Oct 2008, 18:11
Hey I thought IW was really good - if they had put proper loading times in it on xbox. You had a complex story tree with choice and consequence and redundancy. If Montreal have already locked the DE3 concept then they already have the game structure. Lets hope it's not linear levels. You should be able to play the game through several times and take different paths. Not like COD5 ****

IW wasn't a bad game, but it was no Deus Ex.

And speaking of the localized damage can someone explain why devs never consider it? It was one of the best and most unique features of the original game.

Jerion
22nd Oct 2008, 18:28
Can you point me to where it has been said that they won't be using localized damage? I would very much like to know where this rumor came from.

imported_van_HellSing
22nd Oct 2008, 18:34
Probably because localised damage doesn't really mesh with a regenerating health model.

ZylonBane
22nd Oct 2008, 18:36
Hey I thought IW was really good
You're wrong.

No, seriously... you are just plain wrong here. All you can do at this point is slink away in shame.

Jerion
22nd Oct 2008, 19:19
Probably because localised damage doesn't really mesh with a regenerating health model.

Not at all. It just hasn't been done before (to my knowledge).

Skulgun
22nd Oct 2008, 20:00
Wow, if they seriously said that then my hope for an actual worthy DX game has dropped dramatically. :(

That was one of the things I immediately loved about the original - that it was a slower-paced game where you didn't always have to worry about getting your ass shot off like in every other first-person game out there.

It's at times like this that I really wish I could crash one of their development meetings. :mad2:

MaxxQ1
22nd Oct 2008, 20:31
I'd like to ask the people who were around the IWar forums around this time of its release: Did things go like this?

I was at the Ion Storm forums from shortly after the release of DX to a few months after IW was released, and yes, it got to be a real ****storm there. My biggest memory of the points of contention were (obviously) the uniammo, but also the problems people had with even getting the game to play on their comps. That was about the time Pixel Shader 2.0 came out, and many people who thought their nVidia cards were up to snuff, found out the hard way (meaning: after game purchase and "installation") that they weren't. These were NEW cards, and from what I recall, nVidia misled people somewhat on what features that particular card could support. Unfortunately, most of the Fallout (less than a week:D ) fell on Ion Storm, rather than where it belonged, at nvidia.

While I was initially excited about getting a new chapter in the DX universe, I slowly calmed down and became a bit more cautious in my enthusiasm, once details were announced. Uniammo was the first that made me question decisions that were made, but even then, I thought that if implemented well, it might not be so bad. It COULD have been done better, and it MIGHT not have been the boogeyman everyone makes it out to be, but in the end, it was a major failure in the game. In fact, for a couple weeks, I tried - unsuccessfully - to argue a case FOR uniammo.

Other not quite as major things popped up and started me doubting even more that the game would be at least as good as DX, such as the later screenies we got showing the interface/hud, and the "shininess" of the IW world. Still, we were all reassured that the final game would be great and wouldn't depart much from the original formula, so I was still somewhat cautiously optimistic.

When the demo was released...oh, my, did the fecal material strike the rotary oscillator. That was when all the people who had bought new comps and/or videocards JUST for this game found out that, first, if they were even able to install it (some systems would read the comp specs prior to the actual install and cancel it because their card wouldn't support PS2.0), they would get a blank screen. Second, the long load times, small levels, and hud/interface really screamed "CONSOLIZED!!!!!1111oneoneone" which pissed people off no end. Workarounds were figured out for at least the size and transparency of the hud, and some performance issues, by hacking the .ini file, but I was put off by that. I HATE hacking files to get something to look or play better. Third, the inventory system, such as it was, sucked, although admittedly, there were quite a few people who actually LIKED it compared to the Tetris inventory management of DX. I preferred the DX version, TBH.

I ended up buying the game anyway, because I figured it couldn't get any worse than the demo. Wrong. I was lucky, in one way, in that I had just gotten a new ATI card that DID support PS2.0 (I needed it for Homeworld 2, which came out around the same time-frame). I finished it, but I felt like I was forcing myself to finish it, so that I could at least feel I got SOME of my money's worth out of it. I've never played it since, whereas I've played DX at least once a year since it was released.

What's happening here, with the bickering, is minor (so far) compared to those days.

IwantedOrange
22nd Oct 2008, 20:31
Wow.

My faith in Eidos Montreal just took a major dive.



Same here.
Can't believe, that he takes his comments seriously.
Deus Ex is actually a PERFECT EXAMPLE for exciting, memorable gameplay moments.

They rather should try to make DEUS EX 3 "memorable" instead to criticize things in Deus Ex 1, that are not criticizable.

I really hope, that it will be like Stephane D'astous said in the past interviews and they really did their homework. If Deus Ex 3 will reach 80% of the quality of Deus Ex 1, you can talk about a huge success.

WildcatPhoenix
22nd Oct 2008, 20:32
I fully agree. The pace of Deus Ex is what sets it apart in a very overpopulated shooter genre.

I remember the first couple of times I played the Liberty Island mission. Both times I took the sniper rifle, drawing on years of gaming experience which almost always says 'Sniper rifle=easy kills.' To my amazement, not only did JC shoot like a drunk standing atop a moving train, I only had a few rounds of ammunition and could not depend on my rifle to easily pick off every enemy on the map *cough*Call of Duty*cough.

What I would like to see is some happy medium between Splinter Cell and the original Deus Ex. Give Adam the ability to use hand-to-hand combat, allow him to go to 3rd person to use items or world objects, I suppose even allow him to punch through walls (although this still doesn't sit that well with me). Or he can go guns-a-blazing. Or, dare we say it in a modern game, avoid contact with the enemy altogether?

Don't get me wrong. The CoD/Halo/Gears of War games can be a LOT of fun. But I really hope the developers understand that the difference in pacing is what truly sets Deus Ex apart from the countless vanilla FPS games (in terms of pure gameplay mechanics, that is....throw in a hugely immersive and developed world, a twisting conspiracy-laden story, great music, decent if inconsistent voice acting, and tons and tons of replay value, and that's why Deus Ex is so beloved by so many fans).

slamelov
22nd Oct 2008, 20:50
Shooting ability in DX1 was not any kind of simulation, it only was a RPG element. Shooting is simulated in Armed Assault, SWAT 4 and these kind of games, not Deus Ex. Deus Ex has not ballistic or bullet penetration values, like simulators.

ZylonBane
22nd Oct 2008, 20:52
Shooting ability in DX1 was not any kind of simulation, it only was a RPG element.
It simulated that someone who doesn't have any experience using a sniper rifle is going to suck at it.

MaxxQ1
22nd Oct 2008, 20:56
Don't get me wrong. The CoD/Halo/Gears of War games can be a LOT of fun. But I really hope the developers understand that the difference in pacing is what truly sets Deus Ex apart from the countless vanilla FPS games (in terms of pure gameplay mechanics, that is....throw in a hugely immersive and developed world, a twisting conspiracy-laden story, great music, decent if inconsistent voice acting, and tons and tons of replay value, and that's why Deus Ex is so beloved by so many fans).

First of all, yes, I agree the pacing of the original DX was perfect for me. I'm NOT a shooter player (though I've played a few) because I fully admit that I'm slow, I have to look away from the monitor to the keyboard to know what key I'm hitting to do whatever, and I just can't keep up with something like Quake/Unreal/Halo/Doom, etc, etc, etc.

Secondly, referring to the above bolded comment, I've lately been comparing the PC gaming industry to the movie industry. I'm sure the comparison has been made before, but bear with me a moment. In the early days of movies, 100+ years ago, people were making movies that weren't really all that good. Some were better than others, due to some stage experience on the part of directors, actors and what have you, but for the most part, they were just empty, mindless entertainment. PC gaming (and, I think it's safe to say, ALL electronic gaming) started out that way as well: Pong, those little handheld LED football games, Simon, and so on, were FUN, but didn't offer much in the way of intellectual stimulation.

As the film industry matured, you got much better films, as well as the fairly standard fluff - Gone With the Wind, The Maltese Falcon, Casablanca, The Godfather, 2001, compared to Laurel and Hardy Go To Mars, the Andy Hardy movies, and so on. Same thing with games. In the late '90's through the early 2000's, we got some fairly intelligent games that had some good stories, and made a person THINK: DX, Planescape: Torment, Homeworld, and I'm sure many others (I'm naming games I've actually played), as well as those for the people that want less thinking - the usual suspects.

Nowadays, the film industry has largely reverted to appealing to the masses with the lowest common denominator films, and abandoned , for the most part, thought-provoking movies. They're even remaking classic, INTELLIGENT films <cough> The Day the Earth Stood Still - Keanu Reeves???? Puh-lease!!!</cough> to follow the model of mindless entertainment. Why? Because it's easy, it gives them a quick buck, and not enough people seem to care enough to complain enough that we're tired of the crap we're being spoonfed.

Same with our games. Wanna know where the gaming industry as a whole is going? Look at Hollywood. That said, I still have a little faith that once in awhile, a game developer will still make a decent game that is as intelligent, thought-provoking, and fun as DX. I even hope that EM DOES fulfill its promise that, with minor changes (and yes, I think the changes we've heard about so far ARE minor, until I know more about them) DX3 will be a worthy addition to the DX universe. It's a fairly silent hope, as the debacle that was IW has disillusioned me a bit, but until release and installation, I DO have some hope.

moonshine
22nd Oct 2008, 21:04
I'd like to ask the people who were around the IWar forums around this time of its release: Did things go like this?

I was around when the time the demo came out before the final release, and as soon as the people got the demo and were disgraced by it, the ION Storm forums kinda broke and servers went down for a short while due to the fan upheavel. Everyone was begging on the boards for ION Storm not to release the final game, but the forum mods said that it was not possible...so the game was released and it's fate sealed.

I'm crossing my fingers on this though :P

WildcatPhoenix
22nd Oct 2008, 21:26
Wanna know where the gaming industry as a whole is going? Look at Hollywood.

Which is why it comes as no surprise that we're seeing more and more video games being adapted into films. Ironically, the one video game that instantly jumped into my mind as "damn, they should make a movie or mini-series out of this!" was Deus Ex. And it's film project was cancelled.

-Wildcat

AaronJ
22nd Oct 2008, 21:30
What's happening here, with the bickering, is minor (so far) compared to those days.

That's because we don't have a demo yet.

deus ex fan
22nd Oct 2008, 21:40
Same here.
Can't believe, that he takes his comments seriously.
Deus Ex is actually a PERFECT EXAMPLE for exciting, memorable gameplay moments.

They rather should try to make DEUS EX 3 "memorable" instead to criticize things in Deus Ex 1, that are not criticizable.

I really hope, that it will be like Stephane D'astous said in the past interviews and they really did their homework. If Deus Ex 3 will reach 80% of the quality of Deus Ex 1, you can talk about a huge success.

i agree 50% with your opinion.DX1 had some minor flaws.But as a whole i agree that it was/is the perfect videogame ever made.

Devs certainly do right to study the first title and remain to its principles.DX1 is about a prototype or when a videogame transform into art itself.So i dont want to insult them of how they imagine to build DX3.From what i saw and read it recently it seem that they are in the right way.They cant probably satisfy the whole DX community or at least,its something very difficult for them to do it,consequently,we can forgive some of their decisions they make.

The bad thing is dev's decisions to be totally opposite from what,we,i mean the community,want to see in DX3.This thing should devs avoid.

And to engourage the community i bet that from what i've seen so far DX3 in not only in the good way but i bet it will approach 80% of its brilliant predecessor,DX1.:)

WE have the right to criticize things.
NOONE ELSE!!!!

Larington
22nd Oct 2008, 21:42
Yeah, I think theres a reason that one of my favourite films of all time is a straight to VHS Australian production called Virtual Nightmare which very few people have heard of.

Film festivals aren't necessarily as much about poncy people going to see poncy films as some might suggest, largely because its an escape from the largely stifling nature of big business film making.

3nails4you
22nd Oct 2008, 22:02
Not enough memorable moments? I played the game when I was 10, waited to play again for about 5 years, then another 3 after that, and not for a moment did I forget any detail of the game (slight exaggeration). The whole game was the most memorable thing of all time.

Nathan2000
22nd Oct 2008, 22:38
You guys are overreacting. As far as I understand it, Dugas just said that he wants to incorporate more action elements to the gameplay, which means better chances playing Rambo-style.


Not enough memorable moments? I played the game when I was 10, waited to play again for about 5 years, then another 3 after that, and not for a moment did I forget any detail of the game (slight exaggeration). The whole game was the most memorable thing of all time.
Most of those moments are part of the simulation rather than the gameplay - killing Lebedev, overhearing Gunther or Simons - work of the writers. Memorable but not very exciting. We can say that the excitement is not memorable.

I don't quite remember anything exciting in the game, besides maybe saving Paul. Most of the game is steady and, yes, slow. Excitement wasn't really a point of DX1, but nobody said, it can't change.

El_Bel
22nd Oct 2008, 22:45
Auto health regen (although we haven't been told exactly how this will work...)

And why not tell us now against the updates schedule? I mean it is the future that has caused some trouble and badmouthing. Why dont you stop it right now by telling how it is going to be implemented? Whats the worst thing that can happen? If the system is bad and we are gonna hate it in the end why keep it secret? If the system is good, well less bad words are going to come out for DX3... Whats the point of keeping it secret? Why build up tension?


And before you go crazy about Barrett, don't forget DX1 had Gunther.

Looks like you got in defensive stance there.


I'm not so sure about that. I can recall countless times where a guard was literally a couple feet in front of me but didn't see me since I was in shadows.

Yeah, thats logical if you were standing in total darkness!! Go to a room with no windows, close the lights and you will (not) see!! You cant see your hand!! It would be better to fix it than to throw it out of the window because it was a bit broken. If you want we can continue in the stealth thread.


act of shooting and instead relies on your ability to target with your mouse and keyboard.

another hint that we will not have localized damage system. What is the point to have a different arm health when however bad we hurt our arm our aim relies on the mouse...


I know some people actually liked the exact scenario I just described but this is a decision the team made.

So its final? It doesnt matter what we say? So why are the fans here? To clap their hands when something good is announced? Or to have the illusion that what they say counts?

ZylonBane
22nd Oct 2008, 22:58
Most of those moments are part of the simulation rather than the gameplay
The simulation IS the gameplay.

The word you want is "plot".

minus0ne
22nd Oct 2008, 23:07
You guys are overreacting. As far as I understand it, Dugas just said that he wants to incorporate more action elements to the gameplay, which means better chances playing Rambo-style.
Are we overreacting? In Deus Ex, going Rambo was a choice (and one reserved for certain situations), to me it sounds like DX3 will be all Rambo.


Most of those moments are part of the simulation rather than the gameplay - killing Lebedev, overhearing Gunther or Simons - work of the writers. Memorable but not very exciting. We can say that the excitement is not memorable.
Speak for yourself (actually, you just copied what Dugas said, how very faithful of you). To me DX never felt like a sim. What he calls "slow" I would describe as taking your time when you want, planning your actions and then execute them. By Dugas' measure, Splinter Cell games are "slow", which begs the question: what is "fast" to him?

Going from one firefight to the next? I certainly hope not.

I don't quite remember anything exciting in the game, besides maybe saving Paul. Most of the game is steady and, yes, slow. Excitement wasn't really a point of DX1, but nobody said, it can't change.
Really? Wow what are you even doing on these forums if you didn't think DX exciting?

Sure, it may become somewhat less exciting after the 12th playthrough or so, but for me the variations in the storyline and different approaches to situations count as exciting, so does sneaking around (I guess your beloved Rambo gameplay could count as dull though), overhearing conversations, hacking security cams before the guard comes around the corner.

Deus Ex was the most exciting game made up until that time, and even since other games have tried to surpass it, mostly with shallow visual effects (bloody/blurry screen when hurt, more "visceral" smoke and fire effects etc.).

Interesting how you almost immediately emulate and adopt Dugas' opinion as your own.

MaxxQ1
22nd Oct 2008, 23:13
That's because we don't have a demo yet.

What's going on here is STILL minor compared to the fighting going on then BEFORE the demo. It got worse after the demo was released.

serjo
22nd Oct 2008, 23:20
So we all realize that the devs are aware of fan's outrage on certain issues like helth-regen. For them to still stick to it they gotta have some good arguments for it. Can we hear some? Devs? Why is health-regen so great? And why is localized damage so bad?

Skulgun
22nd Oct 2008, 23:27
You guys are overreacting. As far as I understand it, Dugas just said that he wants to incorporate more action elements to the gameplay, which means better chances playing Rambo-style.


Yes, and so did the developers of Invisible War, and it all turned out just fine, right? :rolleyes:

I'm not saying action doesn't have it's place in a DX game, it's just when the developers start essentially saying "Deus Ex was kind of boring. You know what it needed? More EXPLOSIONS!" I think it's understandable that people might start to get a little worried.



Most of those moments are part of the simulation rather than the gameplay - killing Lebedev, overhearing Gunther or Simons - work of the writers. Memorable but not very exciting. We can say that the excitement is not memorable.

I don't quite remember anything exciting in the game, besides maybe saving Paul. Most of the game is steady and, yes, slow. Excitement wasn't really a point of DX1, but nobody said, it can't change.

As minus0ne said, speak for yourself. I found the idea of interacting so directly with the story, and the set pieces themselves, plenty exciting.



What's going on here is STILL minor compared to the fighting going on then BEFORE the demo. It got worse after the demo was released.

Yes, well, keep in mind we haven't even received any true screenshots yet and know hardly anything about the actual gameplay. We have a long way to go.

WhatsHisFace
23rd Oct 2008, 03:35
Yes, well, keep in mind we haven't even received any true screenshots yet and know hardly anything about the actual gameplay. We have a long way to go.

How can you say that with a wealth of info in the facts thread and on other websites?

DXeXodus
23rd Oct 2008, 04:15
Yes, well, keep in mind we haven't even received any true screenshots yet and know hardly anything about the actual gameplay. We have a long way to go.

Those images that look like concept art in PCZone are in fact actual screenshots :)

Jerion
23rd Oct 2008, 04:15
How can you say that with a wealth of info in the facts thread and on other websites?

Uh....What wealth of info? We have a couple magazine articles and official states outlining a couple features, minor descriptions of some characters....and that's it. Oh, and a lot of rumors generated by the community.

Everything we know has been taken out of context, copied, crumpled up, thrown away, taken out of the trash can, signed in triplicate, buried, dug up, and digested 10 times over. I'm seeing a lot of pessimism, and most of it is unfounded. I want to know a lot more detail and context before passing judgment.

DXeXodus
23rd Oct 2008, 04:26
I'm seeing a lot of pessimism, and most of it is unfounded. I want to know a lot more detail and context before passing judgment.

WISDOM! You can't beat it. :thumbsup:

I wish some other people in this forum would think like this K.

Jerion
23rd Oct 2008, 04:33
@ DXe:

There are a few...but it could be more. :thumbsup:

jc_lemon_lime
23rd Oct 2008, 05:00
Is this guy on crack? And he's the lead designer? Well this is going to end well :mad2:

i agree. this is the first time i've really felt nervous about the game:eek: :(

DXeXodus
23rd Oct 2008, 06:04
The interview is all the information we need when discussing an interview. This gets old.

It's not the only thing getting old here ;)

DXeXodus
23rd Oct 2008, 07:03
No not really. People who feel that they must be pessimistic and whiny while calling everyone else stupid for not conforming to their opinion.

That sounds about right. :thumbsup:

DXeXodus
23rd Oct 2008, 07:21
Anything I say now will just be met by another pointless rebuttal by yourself. All I am asking is that you try be more tolerant of others and their ideas and interpretations no matter how silly you think they are.

You are tramping on a lot of peoples toes here with your relentless negative attitude and pessimism. State your opinion, then leave it at that.

Absentia
23rd Oct 2008, 07:27
I bought the magazine, and it clearly says November 2008 on it so it'd be the latest one. But I can't find the interview with Jean-Francois Dugas. The only thing I can find that's related to DX3 is an interview with Stephane D'Astous, along with developers from EA and Ubisoft about how Montreal is becoming a prime location for game development. I'm gonna look again, but I seriously couldnt find anything. Waste of £4.50?

DXeXodus
23rd Oct 2008, 07:34
that needs to be pointed out before the discussion moves forward

There is a slight difference between pointing something out and telling someone that they are stupid for seeing something in a certain way. Get some people skills Carlo.

Now. Lets leave it at that. Back on topic.

Absentia
23rd Oct 2008, 07:40
Might be all there is to it. They probably aren't going to go in depth with talking about the game until much later, so lame "what do you think of Montreal?" filler is all they can really do.

True, but the article said:

"In an interview with Edge magazine, published tomorrow, Dugas says the original Deus Ex was “kind of slow”. He added, “There weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience.”

I'm starting to think I've bought the wrong magazine. It's Edge for sure, and the front cover reads "November 2008" but maybe the newest one is December? (but considering that its released at the end of october, November would make a lot more sense. Very confused.

DXeXodus
23rd Oct 2008, 07:47
There was a similar problem with the PCzone article. The magazines are way ahead of the current month. Published doesn't necessarily mean released I think.

Absentia
23rd Oct 2008, 07:56
Ahh, they hadn't taken the old one off the shelves yet!
I went back into the store while they were restocking, found the new one and managed to get it exchanged. +1 Respect for WHSmith customer service I guess.

Anyway, if it's not too long, I may type up the interview for you lucky people. Haven't even read it myself yet.

El_Bel
23rd Oct 2008, 09:10
Thank you Absentiaa :D Cant wait to read it!!

El_Bel
23rd Oct 2008, 09:34
and before the storm there was silence..... :cool:

rynn taylor
23rd Oct 2008, 09:41
Thanks for the scans Absentia :thumbsup:

imported_van_HellSing
23rd Oct 2008, 09:42
There's something really weird going on in the city pic in pg1.jpg

DXeXodus
23rd Oct 2008, 09:43
Isn't that like, um, hardcore copyright infringement?
I think you are allowed to scan images from magazines, but not text. I don't think it's even legal to paraphrase an article.

Absentia: Rather link to your hosting site as I believe we can get into poo poo for having this on our forums. I will have to delete it soon if you haven't done this.

[EDIT] Sorry for having to be the old nagging parent type here. Hope you understand that it is my job :)

ThatDeadDude
23rd Oct 2008, 10:12
Thanks Absentia. Nice to see the images, even if they shouldn't have been up, lol. Now... I wonder if they see EDGE in this country...

DXeXodus
23rd Oct 2008, 10:27
Thanks Absentia. Nice to see the images, even if they shouldn't have been up, lol. Now... I wonder if they see EDGE in this country...

As you know, I live in Cape Town too and I spent the better part of the day looking for a copy of PC Zone. Found one copy, but it was an old one. *Sigh*
I am not sure, however, whether or not we get EDGE over here. Somehow, I think not unfortunately.

Abram730
23rd Oct 2008, 10:44
They are talking about Pc release for sure but console release not sure, that sounds a bit ty if you ask me, ok perhaps the control mechanism is differnt but that shouldn't be a problem.
Whats even more strange is the fact that these next-gen consoles where to stimulate people to play games without having to upgrade all the time and so the personal computer (PC) was to become more personal use again, also meaning game design.

So don't tell us that the game of the PC version is cheaper to compensate the hardware and software issues, because it isn't, people have to spend more and more on ty hardware only to change their hardware again for a couple of hundred bucks to get the job done for a new game or something.
We haven't even taken full advantage of the hardware capabillities of the XBox 360 and PS 3.

Try and think in'' what if I could never spend money on a holiday because of all the internet and other cost's and what not, that i can at least play a game on a next gen machine wich wasn't cheap to finally keep my PC personal and my console for relaxing and entertainment.

And if the controle mechanism is such a key point make a keyboard and mouse port for the next gen machines to compensate the feeling.

you can use a keyboard for the ps3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr5OLyqpxCk

360
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9fzM6FlZRM

I don't see how playing games on my PC makes it not personal. I can relax and watch TV on my PC and entertain myself with games.

I tend to play sports games and other such 2 player games on consoles.

A good immersive game for a console can be leveraged as most are casual. I got a Nintendo 64 for Perfect Dark. Perhaps the talk of not being sure what system, could be for leverage. How much is licencing? I'm sure they got calls from Microsoft and Sony. I would do that if the game was looking like it would be very good, but then I can be a real D****.

As to the article, I hope situation isn't forgotten. I agree it was slow.. tranquilizer darts took quite some time to drop an NPC's. They could usually get to the alarm no problem.
But contrasts between action and situation are important. A fast pace is faster if it comes out of a slow paced wide open immersive space. People jump in horror movies because they are very slow and speed up instantly. So I'm just pointing out that if the game is relaxing and then fast paced or nail biting, the emotional contrast can actually make a person heart beat faster. Such contrasts are memorable as there is adrenalin associated to it. An always fast paced game doesn't have that contrast as people adjust to the pace.

If drinking and drugs are in the game, that code could be used with tranquilizer darts. stager, sway, stumble.

Abram730
23rd Oct 2008, 11:21
Body language and tonality. Possible skills and Aug's for convo.. Me like.

certain truths may require a voice analysis/sweat levels/heart rate/ ext.. Aug

I was also thinking that scripting 3rd person for some Aug's might be good.

Wouldn't it scare the crap out of you if you were hacking a computer in a cubicle and an augmented arm ripped threw the wall and grabbed you?

WhatsHisFace
23rd Oct 2008, 12:11
As you know, I live in Cape Town too and I spent the better part of the day looking for a copy of PC Zone. Found one copy, but it was an old one. *Sigh*
I am not sure, however, whether or not we get EDGE over here. Somehow, I think not unfortunately.

You should go surfing or climb table mountain instead.

DXeXodus
23rd Oct 2008, 12:16
I'm not a surfer (unless body surfing counts :D ) but I do climb table mountain a couple of times every year. It's great fun and really beautiful from the top.

ZylonBane
23rd Oct 2008, 12:24
Ugh. Who put Fifth Element in my Deus Ex?

René
23rd Oct 2008, 12:43
I bought the magazine, and it clearly says November 2008 on it so it'd be the latest one. But I can't find the interview with Jean-Francois Dugas. The only thing I can find that's related to DX3 is an interview with Stephane D'Astous, along with developers from EA and Ubisoft about how Montreal is becoming a prime location for game development. I'm gonna look again, but I seriously couldnt find anything. Waste of £4.50?

I believe that's an older issue. The Edge one you want has four full pages dedicated to DX3 with lots of screenshots. I'm not sure what month or issue number it is though, sorry.

René
23rd Oct 2008, 12:46
Are we overreacting? In Deus Ex, going Rambo was a choice (and one reserved for certain situations), to me it sounds like DX3 will be all Rambo.

When the magazines distill a four page article into a two paragraph Internet teaser, they are going to extract the most controversial bullet points to get attention. Please read the whole article if you can get the mag.

René
23rd Oct 2008, 12:52
Ugh. Who put Fifth Element in my Deus Ex?

What are you referring to, ZylonBane? If it's the general colour scheme of that article then I agree...Edge did something very different which doesn't represent the art direction at all. PC Zone actually did a really good job with their article's design...but Edge's purpleish/orange...ugh.

Absentia
23rd Oct 2008, 13:41
Isn't that like, um, hardcore copyright infringement?
I think you are allowed to scan images from magazines, but not text. I don't think it's even legal to paraphrase an article.

Absentia: Rather link to your hosting site as I believe we can get into poo poo for having this on our forums. I will have to delete it soon if you haven't done this.

[EDIT] Sorry for having to be the old nagging parent type here. Hope you understand that it is my job :)


Lol, sorry I didn't realise how bad that actually is...

Wait, you're allowed to have just images? Ah well, deleted it now. I can repost just the images if you're sure thats okay and only people still want them (Cause tbh there aren't that many we havent seen before so I don't reckon its worth it.)

Brits: £4.50 isn't too bad as far as games magazines go, at least it doesnt come with "free" demo DVD, so just go buy it.

ZylonBane
23rd Oct 2008, 14:21
What are you referring to, ZylonBane?
Well, the overall futuristic "neo-Renaissance" look of course doesn't mesh with Deus Ex's gritty near-future aesthetic. But it's all the orange in the designs that specifically remind me of Fifth Element.

WhatsHisFace
23rd Oct 2008, 14:24
What are you referring to, ZylonBane? If it's the general colour scheme of that article then I agree...Edge did something very different which doesn't represent the art direction at all. PC Zone actually did a really good job with their article's design...but Edge's purpleish/orange...ugh.

We don't know enough about Edge's article to make any comments at this time.

El_Bel
23rd Oct 2008, 14:33
AJ is a security specialist and not our average Joe. Thats better than what we hoped today for the story. (But than again Edge has not done a good job, so we cant know for sure. Like not having enough information was not enough, now we have to read information that we dont know if they are correct.)

Augs look cool, as always. We have a nice new pic of Shanghai.

Social augs sound cool to me, and all this body language ****. But keep in mind that most body language and facial expressions are very subtle, i hope they do not overdo the movements...

Earlier choices affecting later game is good.


The shooting aspect of Deus Ex was very week in my opinion.

Oh really?
If you missed at point blank you should check your brain for Parkinson.
At shorter distances, yes it is true that if you are UN-*******-TRAINED you would miss. If you were untrained that would mean that you were trained in another sector. You want to dumb down the system? FINE! But dont you dare say Deus Ex was not good enough to make your freaking point. Alright?

WhatsHisFace
23rd Oct 2008, 14:44
(But than again Edge has not done a good job, so we cant know for sure. Like not having enough information was not enough, now we have to read information that we dont know if they are correct.)

I really don't understand how people can seriously say stuff like this. "Edge and PC Zone, who have had an official hands-on with the game, say this... but for some reason... I'm just going to ignore it, and say that."

Trainwreck
23rd Oct 2008, 16:45
I actually wish I could do that little trick as well as some people here. That way, when I play Deus Ex 3 first hand, and encounter something I don't like, I can just assume that my brain processed it wrong, and refuse to trust that the third person switch/auto health refill/Bob Page nude scene/whatever actually happened until I have "more information". Just imagine, every game that comes out must be a AAA blockbuster experience for some of these guys. That must be pretty cool.

Yeah, I'm with you. I can't stand apologists for bad development situations. It's one thing if they *like* the direction DX3 is going - if so, just say so, but be prepared to argue your point! But for those who say, "Oh, well yeah they said auto-regen health but we have to wait until the final product..." I say that we DON'T need to play the game to know these are terrible decisions. This game is headed 100% in the WRONG direction for a Deus Ex game.

I wonder if the developers even bother listening to the community. They probably don't give a crap and instead believe in their own skills as developers to make a good game. They're not looking at this from the perspective of the fans - if they had, they would know that the following aspects of the new design are fundamentally against DX:

-Prequels - Deus Ex is about moving forward. Making a prequel is just as asinine as making a Star Trek prequel. Oh wait!

-Third person gameplay - Third person breaks the immersion level and forces the player to start thinking in different terms all of a sudden. Not to mention that hiding behind objects will no longer involve the "pucker factor" - in the original Deus Ex, if you were well hidden behind a box, the enemy couldn't see you, but you know what? YOU COULDN'T SEE HIM EITHER. You could risk your cover to get a glimpse of his position or you could wait until the "storm passes". There will be none of that in Deus Ex 3 because you will be able to simultaneously watch your enemies and maintain your cover.

-Shooting not connected to stats - part of the fun with the shooting aspect of DX was that you couldn't just aim and shoot! You had to steady yourself and take aim. If your enemy moved, you might have to move too, forcing you to find another good spot for a takedown. With Deus Ex 3 we can now run and gun our way through the game. What a shame.

-Regenerating health - perhaps the stupidest thing that could be done to DX3 HAS been done. Not only can we run and gun, but now there are no consequences. All I have to do is run away from an enemy for 2 seconds and I'm back in the game.

The hubris of these developers is appalling. Here you have a great game - DX - and all you had to do was minor tweaks to make it truly incredible and make a modern remake. Just implement better AI, better graphics, and a brand new story set AFTER Invisible War and it would have possibly been even BETTER than the original. As it's looking now, I think Invisible War will be remember as the better Deus Ex sequel.

Larington
23rd Oct 2008, 17:06
I can now clarify to a certain extent as I have the issue here, its the December issue of edge you want, not November (Can anyone say confusing), the front cover is a mish mash of lots of different images, the key thing to look for is "Deus Ex 3, The return of the thinking man's FPS" in the top right corner, next to Far Cry 2s logo and character.

Its a 4 page spread starting at page 46. The (what appear to be) renders on the 3rd and 4th page of it are worth price of entry in my opinion.

Whatever you might say or think about the statement made by the lead designer, I think this sentence from the article is of CRITICAL importance to note:
"The team at Eidos Montreal certainly knows the previous games well, and has a healthily critical attitude to them; far from being sacrilegious, reassessing the value of such a hallowed title provides an essential perspective that might otherwise be stymied in nostalgia"
Apologies in advance if I'm stepping on any toes by quoting that.

Oh, btw, I think this makes for an interesting read:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/10/23/deux-ex-3-inflammatory-hit-chasing-quote-special/

I can also confirm that the latest issue of PC Gamer UK is out now (Again, its the December one you want, number 194) and has a preview article on Deus Ex 3. Again, 4 page spread.

LeatherJacket
23rd Oct 2008, 17:18
-Third person gameplay - Third person breaks the immersion level and forces the player to start thinking in different terms all of a sudden. Not to mention that hiding behind objects will no longer involve the "pucker factor"


You are going too far in saying it breaks immersion. I think visually showing what you are doing adds to immersion in many situations. This will definitely mean you can't have the same hide and seek experience, but I think different approaches to the same task *is* also what Deus Ex is all about.



-Shooting not connected to stats - part of the fun with the shooting aspect of DX was that you couldn't just aim and shoot! You had to steady yourself and take aim. If your enemy moved, you might have to move too, forcing you to find another good spot for a takedown. With Deus Ex 3 we can now run and gun our way through the game. What a shame.


I thought it was silly to be so inaccurate with the pistol. I mean this JC guy is supposed to be some sort of elite counter terrorism agent and he can't shoot properly from a few yards away? OH NOES WHY DOES IT NOT BREAK MY IMMERSION? What if DX1 bots had a really tough combat AI? Do you think it would be fun to play then? They could pull off the weapon skills system because the AI was not great.

Let me mention though that while I loathed the inital shooting skill of JC while using the pistols, it *was* fun to make difficult shots with the sniper rifle. Making the use of a sniper rifle require a lot of patience for a shot was kinda realistic and fun. I would miss it.




-Regenerating health - perhaps the stupidest thing that could be done to DX3 HAS been done. Not only can we run and gun, but now there are no consequences. All I have to do is run away from an enemy for 2 seconds and I'm back in the game.


This is a difficult game design issue. Lets say you have a very large game world and pretty good combat AI such that there is no particular "arena" for a fight it can happen anywhere. Are you supposed to run around the whole city searching for health packs if you are injured and don't have any health packs left? When any game which tries to allow multiple approaches to a given task is going to be very difficult to properly distribute resources like ammo and health. While unified ammo did seem to have problems in practice, I hope (slowly) regenerating health does not present such issues.

ZylonBane
23rd Oct 2008, 17:22
-Shooting not connected to stats - part of the fun with the shooting aspect of DX was that you couldn't just aim and shoot! You had to steady yourself and take aim.
You know, stat-based accuracy is NOT the same thing as a dynamic aiming reticle. The former has been confirmed to be missing. The latter has not.

Granted, if in DX3 you're just as accurate when running and jumping as when stopped and crouching, then the developers are well and truly morons.

Larington
23rd Oct 2008, 17:27
Yeah, they've said that the skills system won't factor into weapon ability, but there isn't one statement I can recall which tries to claim you won't have to stop and aim before taking that shot.

Besides, DX1 went a tad bit too far with the skills system as far as weapons are concerned, anyone with a stun prod could disable an opponent stood right in front of them (That they've sneaked up behind), yet in DX1 if you hadn't stood behind the target for 30 seconds, there was a chance you could miss, which was stupid, frankly.

René
23rd Oct 2008, 23:04
At shorter distances, yes it is true that if you are UN-*******-TRAINED you would miss. If you were untrained that would mean that you were trained in another sector. You want to dumb down the system? FINE! But dont you dare say Deus Ex was not good enough to make your freaking point. Alright?

That's what he was saying, not that Deus Ex wasn't good enough. Gee wiz (not what I really wanted to say), of course most everyone on the team is a fan of the original and of course the first two games were analyzed for their core values before starting on DX3.

Yes Deus Ex was GOTY, and rightly so, but this is eight years later and while we are respecting the core values, some things are changing. I hope you will come to accept that eventually.

Jerion
23rd Oct 2008, 23:08
So long story short, instead of bashing DX 1, you're simply raising the bar even higher?

René
23rd Oct 2008, 23:25
Hello Trainwreck, and thank you for making your first post.



-Prequels - Deus Ex is about moving forward. Making a prequel is just as asinine as making a Star Trek prequel. Oh wait!

I sense Aaron's Episode 1 Syndome (or whatever he called it) taking effect. It's clear we will disagree, but I will provide a counter:

-Casino Royale
-Godfather II
-Star Trek prequel: not out yet, can't make a comment here


-Third person gameplay - Third person breaks the immersion level and forces the player to start thinking in different terms all of a sudden. Not to mention that hiding behind objects will no longer involve the "pucker factor" - in the original Deus Ex, if you were well hidden behind a box, the enemy couldn't see you, but you know what? YOU COULDN'T SEE HIM EITHER. You could risk your cover to get a glimpse of his position or you could wait until the "storm passes". There will be none of that in Deus Ex 3 because you will be able to simultaneously watch your enemies and maintain your cover.

You can remain in first person in these situations if you'd like to. So this will be identical to the example you gave (and DX1).


-Shooting not connected to stats - part of the fun with the shooting aspect of DX was that you couldn't just aim and shoot! You had to steady yourself and take aim. If your enemy moved, you might have to move too, forcing you to find another good spot for a takedown. With Deus Ex 3 we can now run and gun our way through the game. What a shame.

In DX1, if your database stats weren't high enough with the weapon you had equipped, it could be extremely difficult to hit a target right in front of you. So yeah this element is changing, but that's not to say that your accuracy will stay the same if you're running or looking around wildly.


-Regenerating health - perhaps the stupidest thing that could be done to DX3 HAS been done. Not only can we run and gun, but now there are no consequences. All I have to do is run away from an enemy for 2 seconds and I'm back in the game.

Yep there is health regenerating, and we know some people will not like this. But like another poster mentioned, we accept that and move on. Hopefully you will come to accept it and like other aspects of the game. I could try and explain things further but I would guess that it would do no good.


The hubris of these developers is appalling. Here you have a great game - DX - and all you had to do was minor tweaks to make it truly incredible and make a modern remake. Just implement better AI, better graphics, and a brand new story set AFTER Invisible War and it would have possibly been even BETTER than the original. As it's looking now, I think Invisible War will be remember as the better Deus Ex sequel.

It's been eight years since the first game, five years since the (admittedly flawed) sequel, and this is a different development team working with a couple generations of different hardware and tools. Things were bound to change; look at Fallout 3. I'm sorry you don't like some of these decisions but they are decisions that have been made. I've said it before but I'll say it again: much more important to me about a Deus Ex game is different ways to solve any objective depending on your play style, customization of your character and weapons, deep story with a strong conspiracy, lots of social interaction with numerous characters, consequences to your actions that affect things down the line, a Cyberpunk) setting, open levels, random explorable elements with earned experience points, global travel, etc. Not the time frame, not health regen, not the cover system.

Feel free to disagree, but I think what's in DX3 far outweighs what you'll miss from DX1.

René
23rd Oct 2008, 23:26
Oh, btw, I think this makes for an interesting read:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/10/23/deux-ex-3-inflammatory-hit-chasing-quote-special/

Great article.

Great, great, great.

Did I mention I think it's great? And the user comments are very even-handed.

PS: great article

René
23rd Oct 2008, 23:28
So long story short, instead of bashing DX 1, you're simply raising the bar even higher?

That's the goal.

René
23rd Oct 2008, 23:31
I honestly don't care about the lack of expanding/shrinking reticule, it doesn't matter to me. I just wish you guys had found a way to integrate skills into your game that allowed for your new shooting model, rather than just cutting them, which is what happened as I understand it. As Harvey Smith said (much better than I'm going to say it) in a YouTube interview floating around somewhere, a skill/augmentation system with some overlap, and a streamlined augmentation system are both pretty much the same, mechanically. Taking the swim skill and the aqualung augmentation in one game and taking the "Swimmer" biomod in the other that does the same as both of them is mechanically the same.

But the skills and augmentations combined sort of allow for the player to build a more "real", more coherent fantasy in his head. It lets the character, and his abilities, exist separate from his tools, if that makes sense. Weapon skills could impact things like draw/reload times, ability to semi-zoom while aiming ala Crysis (lots of other games have it too, where your view sort of focuses and moves about a foot forward - you know what I'm talking about), things like that. They didn't have to just be accuracy mods. And then theres a whole host of other skill sets that aren't combat related that could have been kept too. It just seems like a bit of unnecessary streamlining. Specter and Smith made the decision to drop those skills too, and ended up regretting it.

I understand some of what you're saying (great post by the way), but bear in mind that Deus Ex 3 does have weapon customization. That might not completely set your mind at ease but I don't know what else to say. Also, I'm tired and my brain hurts. :D

René
23rd Oct 2008, 23:35
Does the auto-health regeneration have an in-game explanation at least...

Yes. But you'll get nothing more from me tonight!

ricwhite
23rd Oct 2008, 23:51
It's funny the developers would get gamers riled up by stating that the original Deus Ex was "kinda slow" and needed more memorable moments. It's a good technique to get traffic and responses, I guess, but they need to be careful.

Other game developers have "seriously" criticized Deus Ex over various things and have touted their own games as "better". Yet NO GAME, in my opinion, has been as good as the original Deus Ex, and I can GUARANTEE that DX3 will NOT be as good as the original. I'd be tickled pink if the DX3 could come as close as 80% as good as DX1, but I have no delusional warped expectations that it will be as good. So, to even "hint" that DX1 was flawed is, in my opinion, blasphemous.

pauldenton
24th Oct 2008, 01:45
Spector:(project manager dx 2 and desiner for dx 1)
Your appointment to Microsoft should be finalized within the week. I've already discussed the matter with Eidos.


Smith:(dx 2 desiner)
I take it they were agreeable?


Spector:
They didn't really have a choice.


Smith:
Have they been infected?


Spector:
Oh, yes, most certainly. When I mentioned that we could push more copies on the XBox, they were so willing it was almost pathetic.


Smith:
This demo - the rioting is intensifying to the point where we may not be able to contain it.


Spector:
Why contain it? Let it spill over into the fan sites and chatrooms, let the posts pile up on the server. In the end, they'll beg us to ship it.


Smith:
I've received reports of armed attacks on team members. There's not enough of us to placate them, the PC gamers are starting to get desperate.


Spector:
Of course they're desperate. They can smell their death, and the sound they'll make rattling their cage will serve as a warning to the Thief fans.


Smith:
Mmm. I hope you're not underestimating the problem. The others may not go as quietly as you think - they've had two games done properly, rather than just one, after all.


Spector:
A bunch of pretentious old men posting on TTLG.

But the world left them behind long ago. Consoles are the future.


Smith:
We have other problems.


Spector:
The mod community?


Smith:
Formed by passion for good gaming, and a desire to be involved. I have someone in place, though. I'm concerned they'll take matters into their own hands.


Spector:
Our development skills are far in advance of theirs, as is our distribution system. And their... ethical inflexibility has allowed us to make progress in areas they refuse to consider.


Smith:
Universal ammo?


Spector:
Among other things - but I must admit that I've been somewhat disappointed in the performance of the primary unit.


Smith:
The secondary unit should be online soon. It's currently undergoing preparation and will be operational within six months. My people will continue to report on its progress. If necessary, the primary will be terminated.


Spector:
We've had to endure much, you and I, but soon there will be order again, a new age. Gates spoke of the mythical City on the Hill. Soon that city will be a reality, and we will be crowned its kings.

Or better than kings, Microsoft lackeys!

Jerion
24th Oct 2008, 01:47
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Mr. Perfect
24th Oct 2008, 02:56
That post is just awesome, pauldenton. It comes off as a joke, warning, and fan revolution all in one. I wonder which of the three endings the protagonist will pick...


Spector:
Of course they're desperate. They can smell their death, and the sound they'll make rattling their cage will serve as a warning to the Thief fans.


:eek: Creepiest line you could have possibly used.

Abram730
24th Oct 2008, 03:15
...
Oh really?
If you missed at point blank you should check your brain for Parkinson.
At shorter distances, yes it is true that if you are UN-*******-TRAINED you would miss. If you were untrained that would mean that you were trained in another sector. You want to dumb down the system? FINE! But dont you dare say Deus Ex was not good enough to make your freaking point. Alright?

Here are some "trained" officers..
120 shots fired at close range
4 hit unarmed suspect and 1 hit an officer
no life threatening injuries and thats a 3% hit ratio.
Who had the worse injuries the suspect who had 120 rounds fired at him or the officer shot by FF?

Story
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/12/local/me-chase12
Video here
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155956,00.html#

It's called "contagious fire"

I'm just pointing out that most people are bad shots.. even trained people.
I understand that the protagonist is supposed to be a better shot then say a LA sheriff's deputy. DX did have that real feel of people not being the best of shots, running like B**** and the like.


on another note I hear that "contagious fire" exploited in Iraq. Fire a few shots at troops from behind a crowd of women and children and run. One big mess to clean up if "contagious fire" is triggered.

Abram730
24th Oct 2008, 03:21
Now that was funny pauldenton.:lmao:

DXeXodus
24th Oct 2008, 03:44
<Funny post>

Ah man. It has been a while since I actually burst out laughing while reading a post in a forum. Thank you for that. Absolutely made my day!

gargar
24th Oct 2008, 08:28
about that "was kind of slow" part

i had DX1 about a year before i started playing it. i played the first level and it was very slow and boring. half a year later i played the second level. it was less boring. about a month later came an early Saturday morning. no other game to play, nothing to do. got the dog for a walk. came back and fired up DX for about 15 hours of almost none stop gaming. it was that good.

so i do agree with that statement of his. i "forced" two friend to play the game afterward. they were sleeping their way through the first two level. lucky for them they had me to pass the time with.

i can't tell how many people gave up on the game in the first level or so. it sure hurt the sales. while a game doesn't have to start with a bang it shouldn't start so slow as well.

DXeXodus
24th Oct 2008, 08:35
I agree with you completely. Deus Ex could be a difficult game to get into if it is not 100% your style. I think that is what Warren and Harvey tried to remedy with DX2. But they, unfortunately, went a bit overboard.

Oh and by the way,

http://www.goldstreamsystems.com/images/buttons/shift_button.gif

Not sure if you have one of these thingies :D

MaxxQ1
24th Oct 2008, 08:49
:lol: :lol: :lol:


That post is just awesome, pauldenton. It comes off as a joke, warning, and fan revolution all in one. I wonder which of the three endings the protagonist will pick...



:eek: Creepiest line you could have possibly used.


Now that was funny pauldenton.:lmao:


Ah man. It has been a while since I actually burst out laughing while reading a post in a forum. Thank you for that. Absolutely made my day!

It was even funnier when it was first posted on the Ion Storm forums:D

El_Bel
24th Oct 2008, 09:48
Yes Deus Ex was GOTY, and rightly so, but this is eight years later and while we are respecting the core values, some things are changing. I hope you will come to accept that eventually.

Can i say this is kind of bull****? You want to get creative? Fine! Say it! But i cant stand excuses. Deus Ex was ahead of its times. Have you seen any game surpassing Deus Ex in these 8 years? Than how can you say that the industry has evolved? Next time say that Bioshock was better than System Shock because it is the next evolution step..


In DX1, if your database stats weren't high enough with the weapon you had equipped, it could be extremely difficult to hit a target right in front of you. So yeah this element is changing, but that's not to say that your accuracy will stay the same if you're running or looking around wildly.

Well that was the freaking point!! If you wanted to be good in weapons you had to invest skill points at them. If you were a hacker/lockpicker thief you could not use a weapon. It was part of the deal. If you liked weapons, you could invest a few skill points there and than you could use weapons. I kind of like that in DX3 we can upgrade weapons instead of a general category of weapons, but i cant understand what was your problem with not being able to aim if you were untrained.... and how the **** can AF consider it weak. He is weak(lol)[/SIZE].


Yep there is health regenerating, and we know some people will not like this.
So whats the role of the community if you are not gonna listen to what we want? A way to advertise the game for free? I dont think the majority here wants auto regeneration. Oh and its not our problem we do not have informations about the new system! Is it slow or fast regeneration? Will we regenerate to full health or ala Max Payne? If you dont want to release information you cant avoid bad comments.


look at Fallout 3
As a Fallout fan i can say that Fallout 3 is going to suck big time.


Feel free to disagree, but I think what's in DX3 far outweighs what you'll miss from DX1.
Well i hope so.

Larington
24th Oct 2008, 10:33
nice one pauldenton, been a while since these forums actually made me laugh (Since the controversial thread titles thread).

Larington
24th Oct 2008, 10:39
Thats an interesting article Abram, though it does appear as though the case of contagious fire resulted from insufficient training in a particular scenario.

Theres also the question of how much time your average police officer gets in firearms training of the not "rules of engagement, hold your bloody fire" type. Whereas JC Denton appeared to be intended by his superiors as being like US Marines, rather than just a police officer (Though Sam Carter would say otherwise, bless him) so I'd suspect academy training would include more than a fair amount of firearms training.

rokstrombo
24th Oct 2008, 10:55
Am I the only one who actually WANTS to see Eidos Montreal's take on Deus Ex? It sounds to me like most people here only want to play the original game with updated graphics.

Also, I am surprised that so few people are able to recognise when a media provider is trying to increase sales by using hyperbole and misinformation in an advertisement. Purposely offending their target audience on the front cover challenges the audience to read further. René has been extremely patient and generous with his replies considering that most of the complaints posted so far have been based on bad information and pure speculation only.

Regarding the changes, I think a very important issue here is that as games become more cinematic and visually realistic, players seem to process the game with far less imagination than they did back in 1999. I believe that in Deus Ex, extremely clever writing was responsible for many of praises that we players attribute solely to the gameplay mechanics. In other words, the gameplay was considerably simpler than what we were lead to believe.

Accordingly, I think it is presumptuous to try to objectify the enjoyment of playing Deus Ex, based on the observation of single gameplay details such as what we have been provided with so far regarding the third game. I believe that such gameplay details could be changed significantly without straying terribly from the "core values" of the project. The writing and presentation of the game is far, far more important IMHO.

I'm also surprised that no one is discussing the "social" augmentations / skills that will be added to the franchise with the third game. I think I made a post about this to the original Deus Ex 3 forum and no one really seemed interested. IMO, adding such depth to the social interaction of Deus Ex will greatly increase immersion in the game. It's certainly a bigger issue than whether or not the camera can be occasionally switched to a third person view!

DXeXodus
24th Oct 2008, 11:12
Excellent post rokstrombo! Thanks :thumbsup:

I agree completely. I love the fact that Eidos Montreal is taking a fresh new look at the series. I want to play something new even though I love Deus Ex 1 and everything about it. People need to try and understand that games have changed in terms of technology and, as you say, less is left to ones imagination.

There are of course a few details that I am a bit apprehensive about, but I, similarly to you, am trying to look at Deus Ex 3 in a different way, other than just a repeat of the original formula.

Jerion
24th Oct 2008, 11:15
Am I the only one who actually WANTS to see Eidos Montreal's take on Deus Ex? It sounds to me like most people here only want to play the original game with updated graphics.

Also, I am surprised that so few people are able to recognise when a media provider is trying to increase sales by using hyperbole and misinformation in an advertisement. Purposely offending their target audience on the front cover challenges the audience to read further. René has been extremely patient and generous with his replies considering that most of the complaints posted so far have been based on bad information and pure speculation only.

Regarding the changes, I think a very important issue here is that as games become more cinematic and visually realistic, players seem to process the game with far less imagination than they did back in 1999. I believe that in Deus Ex, extremely clever writing was responsible for many of praises that we players attribute solely to the gameplay mechanics. In other words, the gameplay was considerably simpler than what we were lead to believe.

Accordingly, I think it is presumptuous to try to objectify the enjoyment of playing Deus Ex, based on the observation of single gameplay details such as what we have been provided with so far regarding the third game. I believe that such gameplay details could be changed significantly without straying terribly from the "core values" of the project. The writing and presentation of the game is far, far more important IMHO.

I'm also surprised that no one is discussing the "social" augmentations / skills that will be added to the franchise with the third game. I think I made a post about this to the original Deus Ex 3 forum and no one really seemed interested. IMO, adding such depth to the social interaction of Deus Ex will greatly increase immersion in the game. It's certainly a bigger issue than whether or not the camera can be occasionally switched to a third person view!

+5 TRUTH! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Thanks for that post. Well said!

jordan_a
24th Oct 2008, 11:20
Your appointment to Microsoft should be finalized within the week. I've already discussed the matter with Eidos. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I prefer reacting to that than to some useless and hasty posts.


Am I the only one who actually WANTS to see Eidos Montreal's take on Deus Ex?There will be something big for that very soon, I promise.

imported_van_HellSing
24th Oct 2008, 11:29
Edit: I Poast Olde Hat

Larington
24th Oct 2008, 11:39
Must... Resist... Saying... Its... Already... Been... Linked... In... This... Thread...

Bollocks. :nut:

Anyway, as I said in that article:
I do honestly believe that DX3 will be close enough to the roots of the original to be genuinely enjoyable, but distant enough to not repeat its mistakes (DX1 is NOT perfect, awesome yes, but not perfect)… Sure it’ll make whole new mistakes along the way, but, I think I’ll get to enjoy discovering them, rather than fearing them.

imported_van_HellSing
24th Oct 2008, 11:41
Ah, sorry, didn't read whole thread. Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree with your post.

general kane
24th Oct 2008, 11:50
Spector:(project manager dx 2 and desiner for dx 1)
Your appointment to Microsoft should be finalized within the week. I've already discussed the matter with Eidos.


Smith:(dx 2 desiner)
I take it they were agreeable?


Spector:
They didn't really have a choice.


Smith:
Have they been infected?


Spector:
Oh, yes, most certainly. When I mentioned that we could push more copies on the XBox, they were so willing it was almost pathetic.


Smith:
This demo - the rioting is intensifying to the point where we may not be able to contain it.


Spector:
Why contain it? Let it spill over into the fan sites and chatrooms, let the posts pile up on the server. In the end, they'll beg us to ship it.


Smith:
I've received reports of armed attacks on team members. There's not enough of us to placate them, the PC gamers are starting to get desperate.


Spector:
Of course they're desperate. They can smell their death, and the sound they'll make rattling their cage will serve as a warning to the Thief fans.


Smith:
Mmm. I hope you're not underestimating the problem. The others may not go as quietly as you think - they've had two games done properly, rather than just one, after all.


Spector:
A bunch of pretentious old men posting on TTLG.

But the world left them behind long ago. Consoles are the future.


Smith:
We have other problems.


Spector:
The mod community?


Smith:
Formed by passion for good gaming, and a desire to be involved. I have someone in place, though. I'm concerned they'll take matters into their own hands.


Spector:
Our development skills are far in advance of theirs, as is our distribution system. And their... ethical inflexibility has allowed us to make progress in areas they refuse to consider.


Smith:
Universal ammo?


Spector:
Among other things - but I must admit that I've been somewhat disappointed in the performance of the primary unit.


Smith:
The secondary unit should be online soon. It's currently undergoing preparation and will be operational within six months. My people will continue to report on its progress. If necessary, the primary will be terminated.


Spector:
We've had to endure much, you and I, but soon there will be order again, a new age. Gates spoke of the mythical City on the Hill. Soon that city will be a reality, and we will be crowned its kings.

Or better than kings, Microsoft lackeys!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

do not insult microsoft or thy wont give you DEUS EX 3 ****

ZylonBane
24th Oct 2008, 12:07
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

do not insult microsoft or thy wont give you DEUS EX 3 ****

You're the reason quoting and emoticons should be a privilege, not a right.

Jerion
24th Oct 2008, 12:17
Am I the only one having extreme difficulty understanding mr. kane, here?

DXeXodus
24th Oct 2008, 13:47
No. You are far from alone.

Larington
24th Oct 2008, 13:48
ditto

DXeXodus
24th Oct 2008, 13:50
Maybe he means Microsoft controls everything :scratch:

ZylonBane
24th Oct 2008, 14:25
Am I the only one having extreme difficulty understanding mr. kane, here?
I suspect that, at some faint, subconcious level he's aware of his borderline unintelligibility. But he doesn't care. I'd almost go so far as to say that his AOL gutter speak is a point of pride for him.

ThatDeadDude
24th Oct 2008, 14:31
Maybe he means Microsoft controls everything :scratch:
Ah... yes...

Microsoft starts with an M, as does MJ12.

J is the tenth letter of the alphabet, and 10 + 12 makes 22, which considering Microsoft was founded in 1975 brings us to 1997 which is when conspiracy insiders Ion Storm signed up to be published by Eidos.

It all makes sense!

Jerion
24th Oct 2008, 14:41
:eek:

It's all a big conspiracy!

El_Bel
24th Oct 2008, 14:46
Theres a sign on the wall
But she wants to be sure
cause you know sometimes words have two meanings...

Jerion
24th Oct 2008, 15:04
Theres a sign on the wall
But she wants to be sure
cause you know sometimes words have two meanings...

I knew it!

United Nations Anti-Trust Coalition. No wonder JC got pissed that MJ12 perverted UNATCOs mission.

Abram730
26th Oct 2008, 03:59
Ah... yes...

Microsoft starts with an M, as does MJ12.

J is the tenth letter of the alphabet, and 10 + 12 makes 22, which considering Microsoft was founded in 1975 brings us to 1997 which is when conspiracy insiders Ion Storm signed up to be published by Eidos.

It all makes sense!

mmm Conspiracy numerology and bible codes never ceases to amaze me.. kinda like that special class in the school basement with the sheer volume of paste they can consume.
Quote
"6. And of course, 9/11 at: *(new analysis)* 911 - turn the 9 upside down and one has 611. 611 needs 55 to make 666. 55 feet = 660 inches or 66 the number of the Qlippoth - yet again. 61166 = 66. How? (6x1x1) + 660 = 666. 9/11 is code for 666 - you saw it here first."
:eek::scratch: **** :lol: :lmao: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Tracer Tong
26th Oct 2008, 08:56
You got it all wrong!

:mad2: :mad2: IT'S ALL 23!!! :mad2: :mad2:


lol

SageSavage
26th Oct 2008, 09:49
It's 42, silly.

Abram730
29th Oct 2008, 12:04
IW wasn't a bad game, but it was no Deus Ex.

And speaking of the localized damage can someone explain why devs never consider it? It was one of the best and most unique features of the original game.

Extensive market research of the targeted marketing segments showed that localized damage was to complex and distracted from the pretty colors. The Target demographic showed lower attention spans with complexity. Players often became irate and sometimes even violent with unique features.

Look in on this research being done to help Dev's make the console games of the future. This is the very marketing subject who was instrumental in the development of the wii.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh8gfIcjQNY

Romeo
31st Oct 2008, 08:24
Hehe, true. I hope they don't try to make it too fast paced to make up for a shorter game. :)
Like playing a FPS if you were hopped up on a contribanned substance while drinking energy drinks and having strobe light going off anywhere? That would be sooo twitchtastic, it'd be Unreal. You see the pun there? Unreal? Like Unreal Tournament? And it's fast-paced? Man I amaze myself sometimes. I need to go rest this big brain of mine now...

Red
31st Oct 2008, 12:48
Your post reminds me of maddox's Nobody cares if your puns were intended (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=puns). Your post is somewhat very similar to the last depiction of dialogue in that article.

ZylonBane
31st Oct 2008, 15:49
Like playing a FPS if you were hopped up on a contribanned substance while drinking energy drinks and having strobe light going off anywhere?
"contribanned"? Dude... :scratch:

Bloodwolf806
31st Oct 2008, 17:41
Ah man. It has been a while since I actually burst out laughing while reading a post in a forum. Thank you for that. Absolutely made my day!

Agreed, that was hilarious.

Bloodwolf806
2nd Nov 2008, 14:59
Am I the only one who actually WANTS to see Eidos Montreal's take on Deus Ex? It sounds to me like most people here only want to play the original game with updated graphics.

Also, I am surprised that so few people are able to recognise when a media provider is trying to increase sales by using hyperbole and misinformation in an advertisement. Purposely offending their target audience on the front cover challenges the audience to read further. René has been extremely patient and generous with his replies considering that most of the complaints posted so far have been based on bad information and pure speculation only.

Regarding the changes, I think a very important issue here is that as games become more cinematic and visually realistic, players seem to process the game with far less imagination than they did back in 1999. I believe that in Deus Ex, extremely clever writing was responsible for many of praises that we players attribute solely to the gameplay mechanics. In other words, the gameplay was considerably simpler than what we were lead to believe.

Accordingly, I think it is presumptuous to try to objectify the enjoyment of playing Deus Ex, based on the observation of single gameplay details such as what we have been provided with so far regarding the third game. I believe that such gameplay details could be changed significantly without straying terribly from the "core values" of the project. The writing and presentation of the game is far, far more important IMHO.

I'm also surprised that no one is discussing the "social" augmentations / skills that will be added to the franchise with the third game. I think I made a post about this to the original Deus Ex 3 forum and no one really seemed interested. IMO, adding such depth to the social interaction of Deus Ex will greatly increase immersion in the game. It's certainly a bigger issue than whether or not the camera can be occasionally switched to a third person view!

You win sir.:thumbsup:

imported_van_HellSing
10th Nov 2008, 00:47
The entire article is now available on the Edge website:
http://www.edge-online.com/magazine/inside-deus-ex-3?page=0%2C0

Jerion
10th Nov 2008, 00:56
Thanks! :thumbsup:

It's nice to finally read the whole thing. :)

spm1138
10th Nov 2008, 01:53
Nice. It's got different (new) art.

And isn't the whole article so much less controversial? :D

Lazarus Ledd
10th Nov 2008, 22:05
Yes everything fits into context =)

Oh and the screenshots were removed. read the first comment there
http://www.edge-online.com/magazine/inside-deus-ex-3

was there anythin i didn't see already?

imported_van_HellSing
10th Nov 2008, 22:34
Nah. The only screenshots/art in the article were:

1. one of the two Shanghai vista shots
2. the fireplace
3. the "mainframe" pic with the guard
4. the IN YO FACE pic of Barrett in the lab
5. a shot of the fetus from the trailer

Only the first two were in a better quality than what we've had before, and I was smart enough to save them, and reupload to imageshack - you can see them in the gallery thread.