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One_Winged_Angel
22nd Oct 2008, 04:18
Hey there,

Now this thread might belong in the BO forums, but I thought due to it's inclusion of SR plot details, it might fit better here.

Giving what we know of time paradoxes from the SR games, my question would be that;

If Kain hadn't have had the reaver when he fought William, or visa versa, the two reavers wouldn't be present to cause the paradox, so does that mean that William would have one way or another defeated Kain, and still become the Nemesis?

Thoughts and comments appreciated. And I apologize if this has already been brought up, my searching didn't find anything, but I'm also quite lazy.

Linikratyo
22nd Oct 2008, 07:52
William would probably have been defeated, but not killed..... or visa versa.... :rolleyes:

RainaAudron
22nd Oct 2008, 12:26
If Kain hadn't have had the reaver when he fought William, or visa versa, the two reavers wouldn't be present to cause the paradox, so does that mean that William would have one way or another defeated Kain, and still become the Nemesis?

It is not possible. Kain always has the Reaver with him, the same applies to William. Remember that history is immutable.

The_Hylden
22nd Oct 2008, 19:38
Yup. Now, as has been asked about the timeline before it was changed: did William actually win and does that mean Kain died? William had to have lived, but Kain probably didn't die then. However, this time around, Kain bested William.

Defied
26th Oct 2008, 22:41
That's if Kain ever had faced William before Moebius had sent him back in time with the reaver. Consider that maybe the point of sending kain back was not to make his vampire mob......maybe he had pinned his hopes on a fatal paridox to expel Kain from history. When that failed he simply settled on making kain only have the one option at the pillars.

Or we can consider that whatever future kain was going to bring into the wolrd without being the last vampire left was fair to dangers and the act of propelling William and Kain together was nothing but desperation. Who knows what Kain would have chosen since before he left to kill William he wasn't the last vampire left. So who says the Raziel that got trapped in the blade before are friend, was even made by Kain.

I personally think when Moebius sent Kain back in time with the reaver it was the first time this had accrued. I don't believe Kain would have faced down the Nemesis if Moebius wouldn't have send him there. Witch would explain why Kain did so badly in the battle and why the time streaming device save Kain from death it most likely wasn't time for either of them to die.

History is Immutable

The_Hylden
26th Oct 2008, 23:07
So who says the Raziel that got trapped in the blade before are friend, was even made by Kain.

Fate.


I personally think when Moebius sent Kain back in time with the reaver it was the first time this had accrued. I don't believe Kain would have faced down the Nemesis if Moebius wouldn't have send him there. Witch would explain why Kain did so badly in the battle and why the time streaming device save Kain from death it most likely wasn't time for either of them to die.

You partly answer your own self on why this argument doesn't work:


History is Immutable

To that I'll add that all are bound by fate, save Raziel, so in other words there isn't a choice that can be made by any character other than what their fate binds them to. Moebius cannot simply decide suddenly to send Kain back in time, nor can Kain suddenly decide to go back in time using the time streaming device. Moebius is bound by fate to always leave that time streaming device for Kain to find; Kain is always bound by fate to use it. In the timeline before the Nemesis dies by Kain's hands, he's led to the point he goes back in time, set up by Moebius, which means that in the 20 years before Kain was even born where he faces the Nemesis, he's already done so and been unsuccessful in killing him. The only difference when we see it this time is that Kain wins. Why? Because of the paradoxical moment where time is in flux when two Reavers meet allowing for two distinct possible outcomes. This time, we see the one not fated to occur on this timeline and the paradox changes time's flow.

Moebius can see into the time stream and know there are two possible outcomes. He can't, however, choose his own destiny, which means the choices he makes that we are witnessed to. He always chooses the same. That is destiny. That is an immutable history.

Defied
26th Oct 2008, 23:19
ok by what you said though "Moebius can see into the time stream and know there are two possible outcomes. He can't, however, choose his own destiny, which means the choices he makes that we are witnessed to. He always chooses the same. That is destiny. That is an immutable history."

If that is true then Moebius couldn't have simply said ok this time when i send Kain back I'll make sure he has the reaver....or this time when Kain goes back I'll have William use the reaver. So explain how could this act even accrue unless something changed to make Kain and Williams meeting even happen in the first place. Let alone that they where both using the blade Witch if what you said up there is true then they would have always have met like they did....you know immutable history and all

Remember it was the act of the meeting like they did that changed history but what forced it to happen? That as well would have had to be edited

The_Hylden
26th Oct 2008, 23:47
If that is true then Moebius couldn't have simply said ok this time when i send Kain back I'll make sure he has the reaver....or this time when Kain goes back I'll have William use the reaver. So explain how could this act even accrue unless something changed to make Kain and Williams meeting even happen in the first place. Let alone that they where both using the blade Witch if what you said up there is true then they would have always have met like they did....you know immutable history and all

I've stated that they both always make the same choices, which includes Moebius insuring that William always has the Reaver and Kain always making his way into Avernus and finding that version of the Reaver. Thus, he and William both always clash with each holding one version of the Reaver. However, in Kain's past, William survived the encoounter to become the Nemesis. The paradoxical moment when two Reavers colide allows for not only the outcome time has already written, but other possibilities as well. This time, where we witness it, Kain breaks William's Reaver in the clash and kills him, whereas he did not before, but they still clashed, Reaver to Reaver. The change to the timestream is the result of this paradox.

Another way to think of it is in 12 Monkeys, which the creators have stated is the premise for the time mechanics in Nosgoth. Even though Bruce Willis' character went back in time with the knowledge to change things, he couldn't because he was bound to the fate to actually be a part of these events in the first place. Even though he had his gun and everything, things wound up going down the way it always happens. Now, the only difference here in Nosgoth is that there's this nifty chance of things possibly changing only when two Reavers converge. If Bruce's gun had somehow had this property to it, then perhaps a change could have occured -- like he shot just a little faster and escaped being shot himself, or something like that -- but time as he knew it would alter drastically to accomidate this paradox, meaning all he knew when, or if he got back would be changed.

Defied
27th Oct 2008, 15:23
Ok makes sense i get now why kain had told raziel(at willams tomb) We have always meet here. I understood it when i first planed the game but i didnt think about using it as a bases for everything(Witch i think i should have).

dumah's wraith
29th Oct 2008, 22:12
So William survives because his guards burst in a bit earlier or something, and Kain goes back to the future. So the vampires aren't wiped out, and that angry mob in Stahlberg doesn't happens, so he finds and kills Moebius somehow, makes his choice, etc, etc.

But if William survives Kain's encounter in one timeline, the timeline can't change, because William survives

Aranor
1st Nov 2008, 18:39
Fate.



You partly answer your own self on why this argument doesn't work:



To that I'll add that all are bound by fate, save Raziel, so in other words there isn't a choice that can be made by any character other than what their fate binds them to. Moebius cannot simply decide suddenly to send Kain back in time, nor can Kain suddenly decide to go back in time using the time streaming device. Moebius is bound by fate to always leave that time streaming device for Kain to find; Kain is always bound by fate to use it. In the timeline before the Nemesis dies by Kain's hands, he's led to the point he goes back in time, set up by Moebius, which means that in the 20 years before Kain was even born where he faces the Nemesis, he's already done so and been unsuccessful in killing him. The only difference when we see it this time is that Kain wins. Why? Because of the paradoxical moment where time is in flux when two Reavers meet allowing for two distinct possible outcomes. This time, we see the one not fated to occur on this timeline and the paradox changes time's flow.

Moebius can see into the time stream and know there are two possible outcomes. He can't, however, choose his own destiny, which means the choices he makes that we are witnessed to. He always chooses the same. That is destiny. That is an immutable history.

If that were purely true then how would you explain the Nemesis ever existing? As it was Kain's going back that prevented Willion from becoming the Nemesis. If Mobius had always done so the History Kain would have learned would have been of a young William rising to power only to be slain by a Vampire.

I think Mobius was able to flex the binds of fate but even he was limited.

The_Hylden
1st Nov 2008, 19:32
Quoting myself:


I've stated that they both always make the same choices, which includes
Moebius insuring that William always has the Reaver and
Kain always making his way into Avernus and finding that version of the Reaver. Thus, he and William both always clash with each holding one version of the Reaver. However, in Kain's past, William survived the encoounter to become the Nemesis. The paradoxical moment when two Reavers colide allows for not only the outcome time has already written, but other possibilities as well.
This time, where we witness it, Kain breaks William's Reaver in the clash and kills him, whereas he did not before, but they still clashed, Reaver to Reaver. The change to the timestream is the result of this paradox.

Moebius' actions never change. He sets the time streaming devices always for Kain to find. He always gives the Reaver to William. That's all he ever does, on the timeline before and now. The only reason anything changes is the fact two Reavers clash. The answer was already written in my posts. Take another look and hopefully you'll see this. Moebius is just as bound to fate as anyone else is, save Raziel.

Kazame
1st Nov 2008, 19:43
I think I can add something to Hylden's explanation that might further clear up some confusion some people might be having on this.

Say that you and a friend are sitting by a gambling table, with tons and tons of different chips and coins lying around. Say now that you have two options: leaving the casino peacefully, or stealing a bag of money before running away from the casino.

Now, say that your friend has decided that the only way he will steal the casino's money before leaving is if you flip a coin and it lands on HEADS. Now here's the catch. The coin must be a DIME. It cannot be a penny, nickle, quarter, or loonie.

Now lets examine the reaver as this dime. The dime MUST be used to change history (or in other words, stealing money). If you use a loonie (just another sword), you cannot change history even if the loonie lands on heads. So you play your luck with this DIME, as it is the only thing that will convince your friend to rob the casino.

HOWEVER!! Even by using this dime, there is still a 50/50 chance that you will NOT change history. We can rewind and fast forward time again and again and again, but if you keep flipping the dime and landing it on TAILS, your friend will just leave the casino peacefully without robbing anything. But say you flip the coin enough times.. Say that time is nothing but a loop, and it cycles continuously, again and again. Eventually, that dime will HAVE to land on HEADS. And that is when history is changed, and your friend becomes a criminal =)

So remember... moebius ALWAYS uses the reaver, just as you always used the dime. But it was 50/50. WIlliam the Just had won against kain in the distance cycle of history, but eventually as time kept cycling around, kain eventually won and that is what the new history was turned into -- William's demise.

Aranor
1st Nov 2008, 21:25
Ok I reread your post Hylden.

Then perhaps the premise for the next game could be Kain knowing he must force the coin to land in his favor and now having a fully endowed reaver he can be sure the one his younger self takes with him to the fight will be the stronger of the two.

Besides the obvious destroying the elder god and restoring the pillars...blah blah blah.

mega man
20th Jun 2009, 07:46
excellent explanation kamikaze

mega man
23rd Jun 2009, 19:38
now i too want to ask a question ie why did kain fought against himself his former self as in bo1 moebius summoned kain from future to fight kain of the present ... porblem is i dont understand ... if kain from future new that mob is against him then why he fought on his orders and specially against himself

Linikratyo
23rd Jun 2009, 20:28
now i too want to ask a question ie why did kain fought against himself his former self as in bo1 moebius summoned kain from future to fight kain of the present ... porblem is i dont understand ... if kain from future new that mob is against him then why he fought on his orders and specially against himself

It was an illusion of the future Kain...

mega man
24th Jun 2009, 09:14
one thing more i want to ask how do ranks work i mean my little bro was playing and he became princess and bride at some point .... well i laughed at him and this is keeping me away from playing the game BO1 ... also tell me how can i reach best rank (if i want one) and what is the best ...

Linikratyo
24th Jun 2009, 13:02
one thing more i want to ask how do ranks work i mean my little bro was playing and he became princess and bride at some point .... well i laughed at him and this is keeping me away from playing the game BO1 ... also tell me how can i reach best rank (if i want one) and what is the best ...

Check this out: http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/bo1/prestige.php