View Full Version : Elder God afraid of the Hylden?

21st Jan 2014, 02:46
So let's piece some of this time travelling foolery together. The events of Soul Reaver 2, specifically Kain's survival, and his delaying of Raziel's imprisonment, allowed the events of Defiance (which happened during Blood Omen), and therefore Blood Omen 2 to occur.
If Raziel remained trapped in the time loop as was revealed at the end of SR2, he could not have revived Janos with Kain's heart.

So all this happens because Kain survived. The Elder God and his minions pushed viciously for Kain's death, and deterred Raziel from his quest for truth.

So let's go waaaaaaay back to ye old time of the Elder races. The Elder God, is currently believed to be the deity the Ancient Vampires worshipped, and the Ancient Hylden race rejected, or very closely connected. The Old One also exists outside of time, as shown by his manipulation of Wraith-Raziel in the pre-Blood Omen era, where Human-Raziel was engaged in serious butchery.

Establishing this, is it possible that The Elder God was aware of the events of the BO2 timeline? His efforts could possibly be viewed as an attempt to avoid this potential outcome? Kill Kain, trap Raziel in the wraith blade and his infinite time-loop, prevent Janos from being used as a conduit to the Demon Realm, and allow the Hylden Lord to return to Nosgoth? The greatest out come of this is the Hylden's Invasion, who were fundamentally opposed to the Elder God's precious wheel of fate.

This makes me feel The Elder harbored a degree of anger or even fear of the Hylden. Thoughts? Opinions?

21st Jan 2014, 05:10
Mobius mentioned the Hylden as a necessary evil in the Elder God's pursuit to topple the Pillars. The destruction of the Pillars and ensuring that the Pillars always fall is its goal. The hylden also wanted the Pillars destroyed so that they might return to Nosgoth and so became a comrade to the Elder God in this pursuit, but the hylden found destroying the Pillars to not be enough, they needed Janos. Only by delaying Raziel's fate to enter the blade so that he may restore Janos' Black heart, which was inside Kain, could the hylden ensure that they returned with the destruction of the Pillars. Once the Pillars were destroyed the Elder God no longer needed them. So even if the Elder God did know that the hylden would be vanquished by the younger Kain down the line, what did it matter since it already got what it wanted.

21st Jan 2014, 21:41
Warning: if you zoom in too close and think about this stuff too much it does break down and stop making sense, because the human writers aren't perfect and nobody really understands time travel paradoxes that well, etc.
But, if we squint a little and look at this without zooming in too much, it can all work out. Here's what works for me:

Elder can see in advance he's taking a risk by letting the hylden mess up the pillars. He's running the risk of something like BO2 happening if the plan goes sideways. But Elder also knows he needs to take a risk because these necrovamps aren't dying on their own so Elder must do something drastic to put them down. So he "allows" the hylden to get away with poisoning "his" timeline a little bit to set up a vamp-ending final solution (Raziel). EG expects he'll be able to contain the situation, because he SEES the plan working to perfection. (In an earlier timeline). ....Then Kain's & Raziel's paradoxes change the future Elder sees right in front of his many eyes, and Elder is like Oh Crap and he starts back-peddling in desperation. And in that desperation, he can no longer cover all of his bases and some things start to slip by him, not because he can't see the Hylden's BO2 invasion coming but because the paradoxes took all his preparation and flushed it down the toilet so he's reeling and doesn't have the reaction time to counter everything anymore because this new situation was dumped on him "already in progress" thanks to the paradoxes.

(I can hear you starting to object to that last part, but Here's where it hurts us to zoom in too close: if you say, "Yeah but as soon as the paradox happened Elder would have had a new eternity of prep time! He'd have had all the time he needed to get a new plan in place for this new timeline. He wouldn't have been caught by surprise! All his schemes would just be updated to fit the new reality." Well, yes, you could say that, but by saying that you'd be poking a hole in what the writers wanted to portray happening in Defiance, which was Elder & Moebius were losing their omniscience. The Vampire & Hylden agendas were gaining ground on Elder & Moe like racecars passing up EG & Moe's schemes and pulling into the lead. Then the hylden racecar has engine problems in BO2 and must pull over for a pitstop (again, don't look into it too closely or it'd stop making sense). So right now Vamps have a one car-length lead in the race to reclaim Nosgoth but EG is still right on their tail, desperate to retake the lead by clipping the Vampires' rear axle somehow to send their fates crashing into the guard rail, blowing them up in a fatal paradox explosion.)

21st Jan 2014, 22:13
I think that's quite a useful analogy. Although he is a god, or at least would like it believed, he has to slip up somewhere along the line. He seems to be immortal, invincible (at least so far), but he is able to be hurt and also can make some kind of errors. Also I don't know why I am calling him a him, he's kind of an it.

23rd Jan 2014, 04:05
Kain, as the Scion of Balance, is destined to save Nosgoth...in other words, he is a threat to the EG, as he is a parasite leeching off Nosgoth's souls.
At least this is why i think the EG desperately wants Kain killed...all others are secondary, they won't threaten the EG as far as i can think of...

23rd Jan 2014, 09:18
I just wrote a post that was practically the size of a book to give my opinion on this and it didn't go through. :( eh it probably wouldn't have gotten read anyways cause it was so long. Basically I don't think the Elder God feared the Hylden but I do believe that they were a part of one big mistake he made due to his pride and gluttony that cause them to take an action that would set his future actions in motion. (He uses the fact that he is worshipped by the vampires to start a feud with the Hylden not because they refuse to worship him but because he feasts when there's a war.

This action set everything in motion since the Hylden cursed the vampires into being immortal blood drinkers who eventually spread there curse/ infection and in the future would destroy the world making it a barren wasteland where humanity was nearing extinction. With the Elder god being in the spectral realm his ability to fix what he had caused was limited. It wasn't until Raziel came from the abyss that someone he could use to kill kain and his lieutenants even presented themselves. Unfortunately even if Raziel killed Kain and all the vampires the future looked bleak. What did the remaining humans have left even if they did kill off the remaining vampires after kain and his sons were gone? The Elder God is all about eating. Or at the very least not starving to death on a lifeless world. So the elder god sets a paradox in motion through Mobius in the hope of killing kain sooner so he can save the future from becoming a vampire filled wasteland. (not because he is a good guy or because he cares. he is just hungry) This causes a domino effect of more paradoxes but the Elder God knows that fate prefers to keep things close to the original outcome Seen in defiance when kain carried the sword which was the only way to stop raziel and raziel carried the only sword that could kill kain(this leads me to suspect the Elder God never feared the Hylden because although they cursed the future they were fated to fail and were no threat as they were destined to lose. ) The Elder God himself may have been bound to the wheel of fate too since the Hylden curse that set all this in motion was ultimately caused by the elder gods very own worshippers.

The Elder Gods downfall was Raziel since he was the only being that was outside the wheel of fate.

-which is seen by the fact that Raziel's soul was indestructible. (cant be eaten by the elder god if your not cycled by the wheel)

-It was only through Raziel that paradoxes could occur or by extension the soul reaver since the soul reaver is raziel. (Kains free will was only seen after raziel avoided killing him and even then his first act of free will was to..."Pull the soul reaver" out of Raziel)

-Even the Elder Gods most loyal servant Mobius could not be resurrected by the Elder God during the period after he was meant to die by kains hand. We did see him get brought back to life once during defiance after kain kills him. But we also know that he did not appear again after his death in the original game until Raziel visits the past. The reason is that even if kain kills him early there is still a time and a place where Mobius is meant to die. So if he is killed early he can be brought back by the Elder God. This shows us the limitations of the Elder God and how even he is bound by the wheel of fate to a degree. However we also know that after kain killed Mobius in defiance even though it was an unscheduled death Raziel waited in the spectral realm and impaled Mobius while proceeding to devour his soul and thereby managed to force the Elder god to destroy Mobius sooner then fate wanted. This is yet another example of how Raziel can alter fate.

So basically what it all comes down to is the Elder God may have been attempting to alter its own fate. He had nothing to fear except starvation because he knew no one could see him or reach him let alone harm him. He did not fear the Hylden because even though it was there curse that would ultimately lead to his starvation in the future. 1) The danger of this curse to him was brought on by there attempt at giving the vampires poetic justice by making them abominations to there own god and was never intended as an attack on the elder god himself. 2)Its questionable whether the Hylden truly believed the Elder god was more then a delusion made up by the vampires. 3) It seems likely that if the Elder God could alter the past and prevent the curse from ever taking place he would do so as it brought him years of going agonizing hunger and a bleak future. So odds are this was caused by fate and the Hylden were destined to take this course of action just as they are destined for banishment.

And in summation while I find the Elder god to be an amazing villain it was his gluttony and pride that started the spiraling effect that caused the curse that would turn the vampires into rampaging monsters and would ultimately destroy the world and the living creatures on it that he uses as a food source. Ironically we saw that he continued this trend with Raziel which was the one being that seemed to partially exist outside the wheel of fate and could change things. The Elder God wants to devour souls but he doesn't want life to end or he will starve. So had he approached it from a more honest angle and gave up his pride as an untouchable god (and not treated Raziel as an insect) Then it might have turned out differently.