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Mecranth
12th Oct 2008, 17:55
I cannot seem to find out how to create a poll, though I may not be a high enough rank to do so, so this will just be for discussion.

As a note, this is in no way an assumption that factions will be included, as there has been no news on this as of yet.

I would also appreciate it that no flame wars ensue in this thread. I trust you all, myself included, to keep this all civil and constructive.

All of that aside, there was one key feature present in Deus Ex: Invisible War that I believe is one of, if not the, most strongest aspects implemented into it: Factions. They added a nice amount of replay value to a game short enough to nearly require it, making at least the second run through the game quite a bit different from the first, should the player choose to make it so.

I would personally like to see this system make a return, only this time with an increase in depth and perhaps a higher number of factions. While the system was decent in Invisible War, there were only two existing (official) factions, the Order and the WTO, and while the separate objectives were a very nice touch, they did not really affect anything in the long term.

I would like to hear others' thoughts on this.

Lazarus Ledd
12th Oct 2008, 18:14
No no.


I don't care about faction in real life as long as i got myself, myheart, mysoul.
It would be just a bar-of-distraction in the game. I don't wanna cheer for one side. I wanna make them cheer for ME.

Bluey71
12th Oct 2008, 18:18
No! No more of that **** please.

The way it was implemented in IW was terrible - it didnt feel like a DX game at all.

Just dont do it Eidos.

IH-Denton
12th Oct 2008, 18:38
No! No more of that **** please.

The way it was implemented in IW was terrible - it didnt feel like a DX game at all.

Just dont do it Eidos.
too late...

Vying for supremacy in this lucrative and ethically dubious field are behemoth multinational corporations, each scuffling for dominance by hiring moles and hackers to pilfer each other's secrets, while factions opposed to these corporations' attempts to evolve humanity scheme to thwart their efforts
again factions, again humanity-ORDER-like from Invisible War... too late guys :mad2:

StalinsGhost
12th Oct 2008, 18:58
:/ the original had factions. Granted they were rather more nebulous and less defined than in IW, but they were there. Hell, I think Deus Ex basically had more.

Big Orange
12th Oct 2008, 19:06
There were different factions in DX1 fighting each other you schmucks, except it was better implemented and not detrimental to the narrative. The descriptions of the factions in DX3 is way too vague anyway to be so much like Invisible War, except there is the promising concept of the corporations and states under the stewardship of the Illuminati using augmented people as pawns in their Great Game, while the rebel groups who oppose them are mainly ignorant religious luddites who would not readily accept the central character as their ally, since he is a mechanical monster in their eyes.

The NSF were not totally trustworthy if they were embedded in organized crime and killing innocent people, despite their sympathetic goal of fighting against UNATCO/MJ12. And judging from their accent, many of them could've been Marxists or Christian fundies as well.

Bluey71
12th Oct 2008, 19:07
too late...

again factions, again humanity-ORDER-like from Invisible War... too late guys :mad2:

This is their chance to put those things right though - thats why its important these items we have doubts with are bought up here and now - not just so that the devs can change things if they are able to(they did change the third person to optional) but because this board is pointing to the things that we dont like/ dont think will work in the game - if DX3 flops we as fans can at least have the comfort of knowing we tried to get things changed.

Not speaking out now is bad bad bad.

Big Orange
12th Oct 2008, 19:21
If you peeve off one particular faction by killing many of their soldiers, blow up a few of their bases, and kill one of their leaders, they would not dare to contemplate in asking for your services at the last minute towards the end of the game, that is just lame, and lets hope the governments/industries and religious nuts have not been puppets for the Illuminati all along. So long as this happens, I've got nothing to whinge about.

Mecranth
12th Oct 2008, 19:23
:/ the original had factions. Granted they were rather more nebulous and less defined than in IW, but they were there. Hell, I think Deus Ex basically had more.

True, but I am talking about a system of choice, which was not present with the factions of the first game. Yes, they were there, but the player had no say in which factions he or she would ultimately side with. It was more of a linear path, though a very good one.

I don't mind how it goes either way, though I would be interested to see a much more polished faction system that the second game incorporated. I would be happy with a system similar to the one in the first game as well, however.

DXeXodus
13th Oct 2008, 04:36
I cannot seem to find out how to create a poll, though I may not be a high enough rank to do so, so this will just be for discussion.

For future reference:

When you make a new thread there is a check box a little way down the page called "Yes, post a poll with this thread"

All you have to do is check that. Once you submit your new thread you will be taken to the poll creation page.

:thumbsup:

Mecranth
13th Oct 2008, 04:38
Thank you. I still cannot seem to make a poll, likely due to my low rank. I see some check boxes down below, but none describe the making of a poll. Perhaps when my forum rank increases, I suppose.

DXeXodus
13th Oct 2008, 10:24
Oh Ok. Well the next rank commences at 50 posts.

As for factions. I really like the idea of factions in the game. But I do not want them to be dealt with in the way they did it in DX2. It was too simple, with zero consequences.

The choices you make should have an impact. Which seems to be the direction Eidos is taking here anyway.

Overtime
13th Oct 2008, 10:36
I would like factions, but not rigid ones. It would be fun to have ppl who are basically human, steal little things from their factions, sell info, are planning on betraying. Even affairs with characters from different factions, or within the same one but a low ranking guy with the boss's daughter etc. You could then blackmail them, rat them out etc.

just make them more human and interrelated.

ikenstein
14th Oct 2008, 02:40
i kind of like the faction wars in clear sky, specially in the swamps. maybe a couple of levels like that would be ok. but for deus ex the plot should be more important.

CarloGervasi
14th Oct 2008, 02:42
I wouldn't mind it, actually. The factions didn't do anything mechanically to make the game less linear - you were still heading to MAKO, for instance, regardless of what your reasons were or what you were going to do once you got there. But they were a good way to RP your character and his/her belief system and political values, so it worked. I wouldn't hugely miss them either, because as I said, they're largely decorative only, they have very little real impact.

JCD
14th Oct 2008, 03:39
If there are to be factions in the game, which you follow and get positive/negative feedback from, the game should be complex.

What do I mean? See Boiling Point. A great idea, with TONS of bugs (more than it's own jungle). It had so many factions though, you were always making choices - which I really enjoyed.

So, in my opinion, if there is the idea of implementing factions in the game, I would like the scenario to be a little "deeper" and more complicated than the one Deus Ex IW had (simply choosing who to follow). I know this is hard, but that's what I would like.

Of course, a Deus Ex game without factions is something just not right - I just would love to see it being a little more complex and unique, each time you try to play it again.

But, we all know that realistically, PC Games that make the consoles, rarely offer this kind of Role Playing (multiple choices, endless factions to choose from, deep scenario for each faction, etc.) - mainly because console gamers are not as "hardcore" as PC Gamers (imo at least). We all saw what happened to Oblivion (a VERY easy game, a shame to be called Elder Scrolls, way too "consolised" - fortunately the Mod Community saved it).

I just don't want to see it happen to Deus Ex 3. We know it affected IW, i sincerely hope it doesn't affect 3 :) :) :)

So, factions are a GO from me, providing that they are well implemented :cool:

ZylonBane
14th Oct 2008, 04:20
I'm assuming that what the submitter really meant by "Return of Factions" was "Return of Invisible War's Faction System".

And the answer is-- Not just no, but hell no. The problem with the faction system as implemented in IW is that it's inherently absurd. Realistic characters would not continue offering missions to people who repeatedly stab them in the back. J.C. Denton did that *once*, and UNATCO responded by firing him, putting a price on his head, and activating his kill switch.

DX1 had it right-- lay down a strong linear narrative, but allow players to make the narrative their own by letting them personalize it with choices that are plot-insignificant but emotionally or philosophically meaningful.

Mecranth
14th Oct 2008, 11:37
You assumed incorrectly, ZylonBane.


I would personally like to see this system make a return, only this time with an increase in depth and perhaps a higher number of factions.

I am not sure if you read my entire post, but I made it clear that, while I did enjoy the system as it was implemented in Invisible War, I acknowledged its obvious shortcomings and do hope that, if it is implemented again, it should be more polished and deep.

ZylonBane
14th Oct 2008, 14:16
Did you read my post? From a game fiction perspective, faction systems are fundamentally immersion-breaking. No organization in its right mind would keep offering work to an unreliable operative.

The best possible substitute would be a branching plot, where if you choose to side with one faction or another, it has permanent, far-reaching consequences.

Mecranth
14th Oct 2008, 14:33
Yes, I read it. I do not see how they would break immersion. For some people, perhaps, but I found the faction system in the second game quite helped immerse me into the game world, even though it was not implemented that well. Surely you would agree that the system could be changed easily to the point where unreliability does, indeed, cause tension and perhaps even separation?

I see what you mean by the branching plot. In fact, that was my original idea of how a faction system should be implemented in the third game. I am sorry if my original post did not make that clear for you. In no way do I want a copy of Invisible War's system. I would like one similar, but handled with much more care than in that game.

Bluey71
14th Oct 2008, 18:18
No, it was the factions in IW that partly broke the immersion for me - I think basically because you dont get the time to build any sort of relationship with them - there is no emotional tie to them.

Papy
14th Oct 2008, 22:49
I found the faction system in the second game quite helped immerse me into the game world
Can you explain why?

Mr. Perfect
14th Oct 2008, 23:48
It depends on what kind of factions.

Fringe factions like the Omar where a lot of fun, but mostly because they weren't trying to push the plot around. They where just lurking in the black markets, offering perks for helping them out. Thief 3 had two similar fringe factions, the Hammers and the Pagans. You could help one, both, or neither and the main plot would move along with out any changes.

The "main" factions in IW where just irritating. I don't think I ever actually did more then one or two mission in a row for any of them. Since they don't care if you help them or hunt them, just pick the the most rewarding option for each level, and then swap sides when the other guys have a better prize. It made you feel like some sort of mercenary instead of part of an uprising to save the world. As a result, I personally never actually cared about any of the factions by the end of the game, and destroyed all four of them. It wasn't that the Omar had a good ending, the other ones just weren't important.

ZylonBane
15th Oct 2008, 00:00
I think I ended up caring more about the stupid Coffee Wars than the main plot.

Imagine my consternation when I arrived at Liberty Island and... nobody was selling coffee.

Mecranth
15th Oct 2008, 00:29
Can you explain why?

It helped explain the current world situation. Without the WTO and the Order making a big fuss, I would have no business there let alone any idea as to why I even exist in the game in the first place. They gave me reasons for being there and choices to make, however shallow they may have been.

The first game did roughly the same thing, only the game itself, instead of the player, chose which factions the character sided with. This was indeed handled much better than the inconsequential choices present in the second game, but I believe the step towards choice among factions was a step forward.

ZylonBane
15th Oct 2008, 00:49
This was indeed handled much better than the inconsequential choices present in the first game, but I believe the step towards choice among factions was a step forward.
"Inconsequential"? In the first game, my decisions determined whether people I cared about lived or died (or ended up stranded in the desert). In the second game, my decisions influenced absolutely nothing beyond the current mission.

Lazarus Ledd
15th Oct 2008, 08:23
:/ the original had factions. Granted they were rather more nebulous and less defined than in IW, but they were there. Hell, I think Deus Ex basically had more.

well DX didn't have faction bars to makemy head hurt

Mecranth
15th Oct 2008, 16:17
"Inconsequential"? In the first game, my decisions determined whether people I cared about lived or died (or ended up stranded in the desert). In the second game, my decisions influenced absolutely nothing beyond the current mission.

Ah, I made a big mistake in that statement. I meant to say the second game. I apologize.

Azrepheal
15th Oct 2008, 18:41
Imagine my consternation when I arrived at Liberty Island and... nobody was selling coffee.

You see, thats what the second game was missing. I could have overlooked all of IW's faults if I had only arrived on Liberty Island with the mission stating: "The world is about to change. But what is a world without coffee? Sell Peguod's to all the different factions so that whoever wins... PEQUODS SHALL CONTROL ALL!!"

Damn, if only I was a modder.

ewanlaing
15th Oct 2008, 18:46
I feel that IW had a superior factions system, but that as a result the first game had a more focused story, and I would prefer the story every time.

Mr. Perfect
16th Oct 2008, 16:27
I think I ended up caring more about the stupid Coffee Wars than the main plot.

Imagine my consternation when I arrived at Liberty Island and... nobody was selling coffee.

:lol: I forgot about the coffee factions. They both turned out to be controlled by the same parent company though. What a blow that must have been.;)

Still, some sort of "Coffee ending" could have been worked in. Something where we'd get a good old capitalist economy instead of WTO enclaves, technophobes, or either of the two Borg like engings.

gamer0004
16th Oct 2008, 16:55
:lol: I forgot about the coffee factions. They both turned out to be controlled by the same parent company though. What a blow that must have been.;)

Still, some sort of "Coffee ending" could have been worked in. Something where we'd get a good old capitalist economy instead of WTO enclaves, technophobes, or either of the two Borg like engings.

And about the stupidest idea of IW - uni ammo included.
If a company has such a monopoly, the last thing they'd want is a price war.

Abram730
16th Oct 2008, 22:18
:/ the original had factions. Granted they were rather more nebulous and less defined than in IW, but they were there. Hell, I think Deus Ex basically had more.

IW threw it in your face and walked you threw it like a child. I think this bothers those that don't care about those sorts of things as it's in your face and bothers those that like it because it holds your hand and was dumbed down. Dx1 better matches reality with it's fiction.

spoiler
The coffee thing was just plain stupid... QueeQuegs and Pequods being the same corporation is some conspiracy? you mean one company owning the competition is some sort of secret conspiracy :lmao:

It's very common and nothing to write home about.

example of the auto industry
BMW owns:
-BMW
-Mini
-Rolls Royce

Daimler/Chrysler owns:
-AMC (brand discontinued -- Chrysler bought AMC primarily for the Jeep brand which was owned by AMC)
-Chrysler
-Dodge
-Eagle (brand discontinued)
-Hyundai (Daimler/Chrysler only owns 10% --13 May 04 changes!)
-Jeep
-Maybach
-Mercedes-Benz
-Mitsubishi (Daimler/Chrysler owns less than 20%)
-Plymouth (brand discontinued)
-Smart

Fiat owns:
-Alfa Romeo
-Ferrari
-Fiat
-Lancia
-Maserati

Ford owns:
-Aston Martin
-Ford
-Jaguar
-Land Rover (bought from BMW)
-Lincoln
-Mazda (Ford owns 33% of Mazda)
-Mercury
-Volvo cars

Fuji Heavy Industries owns:
-Subaru

General Motors owns:
-Buick
-Cadillac
-Chevrolet
-Daewoo (GM owns 44%)
-Fiat (GM owns ~20%) (GM has decided to divorce itself from Fiat as of Feb '05)
-Fuji Heavy Industries (GM owns ~20%)
-GMC
-Holden
-Hummer
-Isuzu (GM only owns a percentage)
-Oldsmobile (brand discontinued)
-Opel
-Pontiac
-Saab
-Saturn
-Subaru (GM owns 20%)
-Suzuki (GM only owns a small percentage)
-Vauxhall

Honda owns:
-Acura
-Honda

Hyundai owns:
-Hyundai
-Kia

Mitsubishi Heavy Industry, Mitsubishi Corp. and Mitsubishi Tokyo Financial Group Inc. (MTFG) owns, 33.4%:
Mitsubishi (DC owns about 20%)

Nissan owns:
-Infiniti
-Nissan
-Renault (Nissan owns 15%)

PSA Peugeot Citroen owns:
-Citroen
-Peugeot

Porsche:
an independent company (they do work very closely with VW, however)

Renault owns:
-Nissan (Renault owns 44%)

Toyota owns:
-Lexus
-Scion
-Toyota

Volkswagen owns:
-Audi
-Bentley
-Bugatti
-Lamborghini
-SEAT
-Skoda
-Volkswagen

The coffee part was handled as a central side plot yet it was more like
the lemon-lime conspiracy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxVPPy5w9NA

Abram730
17th Oct 2008, 00:52
I'm assuming that what the submitter really meant by "Return of Factions" was "Return of Invisible War's Faction System".

And the answer is-- Not just no, but hell no. The problem with the faction system as implemented in IW is that it's inherently absurd. Realistic characters would not continue offering missions to people who repeatedly stab them in the back. J.C. Denton did that *once*, and UNATCO responded by firing him, putting a price on his head, and activating his kill switch.

DX1 had it right-- lay down a strong linear narrative, but allow players to make the narrative their own by letting them personalize it with choices that are plot-insignificant but emotionally or philosophically meaningful.

Such action would have to cause a fork in the linear plot to be believable. Some games have 3 different factional plots start to end.. Any implementation of overtly siding with another faction would need to fork the plot into a different linear path colliding at the end in a deus ex machina.

If they can't make a plausible fork path then don't do it. It needs to be conceptually believable. Also if there are factions then they need to be developed as in slowly introduced and not thrown in peoples faces... Factions in real life aren't much talked about and are quite a grey area, so if a game starts out with all the real factions people will be confused. Ideology and common interests tend to be how it is. Even if the player knows the game, the protagonist doesn't and the game follows the protagonist. Actions have consciences

Lazarus Ledd
18th Oct 2008, 07:17
Agree