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Lady_Of_The_Vine
10th Oct 2008, 21:49
I don't think we have a dedicated thread to discuss DX3 augmentations, do we?
Couldn't see one in the sticky list thread. If I missed it, please feel free to merge this one... and sorry. :o

It would be nice to read all augmentation discussion in one place instead of scattered around in different threads. Gets confusing to keep up with the flow. :nut:
So, I'll start.



About the 'tentacle'/bungee type augmentation.
I'm guessing, as your skills increase, those tentacles can be used for other things?
For example: capturing enemies, lifting/moving/manipulating obstacles/switches etc and also what about swimming (squid like)?

If you have a copy of PCZone magazine, the image of the underground station has some sort of blue-coloured projection (to the far right) of a person with long trailing tentacles attached. He appears to be immersed in deep water... could be the sea, or a tank?

Unfortunately, we don't seem to have a clear image of this section of the scan on the forum (unless I missed it somewhere?) so I couldn't add in here - maybe MrP or another member can give us a close up? Thank you. :)

Anyway, hopefully lots of you have purchased the magazine and know what I'm talking about? :p

Bluey71
10th Oct 2008, 22:00
If you have a copy of PCZone magazine, the image of the underground station has some sort of blue-coloured projection (to the far right) of a person with long trailing tentacles attached. He appears to be immersed in deep water... could be the sea, or a tank?

Anyway, hopefully lots of you have purchased the magazine and know what I'm talking about? :p

Yes I can see what you are talking about. That does indeed look like the bungee jumping *sigh* augmentation. Well, I say that - cant think what else it could be. Actually there is more than one - looks like theres four. I dont think its the sea. Could be a tank I guess but why would they be in there - I think its a picture on a wall - or some sort of digital display.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
10th Oct 2008, 22:06
Yes I can see what you are talking about. That does indeed look like the bungee jumping *sigh* augmentation. Well, I say that - cant think what else it could be. Actually there is more than one - looks like theres four. I dont think its the sea. Could be a tank I guess but why would they be in there - I think its a picture on a wall - or some sort of digital display.

Are you able to post a scan, so all can see? :cool:

Yes, I think it is a projection, as mentioned.
Why the *sigh*, hehe. I think these tentacles could be upgraded as the game progresses. Just imagine the many different uses/choices - that appeals to me. :)

ZylonBane
10th Oct 2008, 22:06
Who knows, they may end up being DX3's version of rope arrows.

Rope arrows are cool.

Bluey71
10th Oct 2008, 22:14
Are you able to post a scan, so all can see? :cool:

Yes, I think it is a projection, as mentioned.
Why the *sigh*, hehe. I think these tentacles could be upgraded as the game progresses. Just imagine the many different uses/choices - that appeals to me. :)

I was sighing at the name - Bungee Jumping...see my other post in 'pc zone release possible DX3 details.

I dont have a scanner at the mo otherwise Id get one up - anyone else?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
10th Oct 2008, 22:33
Oh yeah, hehe. :D Not my original quote though...so don't blame me. :p

I guess those tentacles are going to simulate anything 'rope and bungee-like' and I'm figuring that they are going to offer good manipulation/control by the player - especially if 'swimming' (like a squid) is one of the choices.

MrP also suggested to me the other day that the tentacles could have some sort of gill mechanism feature just like real squid use; thus prolonging underwater exploration/survival. The gill mechanism would absorb oxygen from the water. This would fit in with the immersed, tentacled human figure we are discussing.

No worries about the scanner... hopefully another member will come to the rescue. :)

ZylonBane
10th Oct 2008, 23:48
MrP also suggested to me the other day that the tentacles could have some sort of gill mechanism feature just like real squid use
Unless the tentacles are in fact actual transplanted squid tentacles, this suggestion doesn't make any sense.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th Oct 2008, 00:12
Unless the tentacles are in fact actual transplanted squid tentacles, this suggestion doesn't make any sense.

I understand what you are saying, though in a fictional game world, anything is possible. ;)
But, yes, they could be a combination of organic and mechanical.

However, if only mechanical, it actually does make some sense...




Artificial gills extract oxygen from water

by Marc Perton, posted Jan 31st 2006 at 5:03PM
An Israeli scientist has developed an "artifical gill" that is able to extract oxygen from seawater, potentially allowing divers to breathe underwater without a tank. However, many details still remain to be worked out before the device is suitable for regular underwater use. The device, called LikeAFish, lowers the pressure of seawater using a high-speed centrifuge. Oxygen is then separated from the water and stored in a bag for breathing. While the system may be a technical breakthrough, it imposes its own limits on divers, including the need for a heavy-duty battery and confidence that the water being processed isn't polluted or lacking in oxygen. For those reasons, the developer, Alon Bodner, is focusing much of his efforts on underwater habitats, theorizing that they would already have a reliable energy source, and would be located in spots where the oxygen levels in the water are consistent.


Sounds like we'll need plenty of battery power if we decide to go for a dip. :D

Source:
http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/31/artificial-gills-extract-oxygen-from-water/


Also, read this:
http://www.livescience.com/technology/050606_breathe_underwater.html

jc_lemon_lime
11th Oct 2008, 03:25
i think that all of the augmentations that have been mentioned so far sound awesome:thumbsup: there was one in the magazine preview called 'claymore' that makes a cloud of buckshot explode out of adam's skin when he's surrounded by baddies how cool would that be?:eek:

MIB: give it up jensen, there's nowere to run! the only way you're getting out of here is in handcuffs, or a bodybag.

BOOM!

Adam: funny, i was about to say the same thing.

i like the sound of the bungee jump aug too: imagine getting chased across a 100th floor rooftop and the only thing you can do to evade capture is to dive off the edge. you plummit toward the street and your doom; but at the last second you press F5 and the tentacals pop out of back and break your fall. you round the corner and fade into the crowd.:cool: :rasp:

Bluey71
11th Oct 2008, 21:47
Has anyone thought about the number of augs that are going to be available - 20 seems like a lot to get through, especially if you expect this game to be shorter than DX1. Im saying its going to be shorter because thats the trend these days.

20 seems a lot to get through in a short space of time.

AaronJ
11th Oct 2008, 21:49
MIB: give it up jensen, there's nowere to run! the only way you're getting out of here is in handcuffs, or a bodybag.

BOOM!

Adam: funny, i was about to say the same thing.

That is one badass line.

MaxxQ1
12th Oct 2008, 01:15
Has anyone thought about the number of augs that are going to be available - 20 seems like a lot to get through, especially if you expect this game to be shorter than DX1. Im saying its going to be shorter because thats the trend these days.

20 seems a lot to get through in a short space of time.

Well, I'm HOPING EM goes with the DX model for augs (one-time install only, no changes), rather than the DX2 version (swap 'em out, anytime, anywhere, any number of times). If that's the case 20 would be the number you can choose from, but not have all 20 installed.

Also, now that I'm thinking about it, I'm curious as to how we will install any augs. In DX, with nanotech augs, all you needed was a medbot. With the mechaugs that will be used in DX3, you're gonna need a hell of a lot more support equipment than just a medbot to install the things - like a full operating room, for starters.

Thinking some more, I'm beginning to wonder if we're supposed to pick the augs we want at the start of the game. After all, AJ is security at a biotech company, and it's been said that he's already augmented as part of his job. That could be good or bad. The good side is that you can play around with different augs before deciding on a final setup, and getting into the game proper (kinda like a lot of people would try out different classes and abilities at the beginning of Oblivion). A bad point is that it reduces the thrill of finding that next augmentation.

I don't think upgrades will be as much of a hassle though, unless they're not "physical" upgrades, but just skill point upgrades.

Damn! I need more info, Rene.:D

Yargo
12th Oct 2008, 01:56
As for the number of Augs I've heard 20 and 50 so it'll be interesting to see the number. I can't say I care to much for bungie jumping tentacles or buck shot from my skin. Neither of these augs seem grounded in any sort of reality. If you have those why not through in laser eyes or fire breathing:rolleyes: ? I would like to suggest modified legs that can handle long falls, much like portals, as an alternative to bungie jumping as for buck shot, I dno :confused:

Strength Augs like ripping people through walls seems a given as do water breathing (if they choose to have aquatic environments at all). I would also like to see vision and speed enhancement like dx1.

I wonder if money will play any part in how you augment adam? Perhaps you'll have to pay for augs to be installed?

TrickyVein
12th Oct 2008, 01:59
In terms of upgradeable augs, any sort of seemingly "extraneous" material will only increase the replayability of the game, which, need I remind anyone, was most likely the strongest point of deus ex classic.

The game should push some new boundaries - starting the game out with a few augs sounds fine - what's the difference between that and starting out with 5000 or so skill points? JC already had modified eyes anyway - you don't complain about that.

How about being able to fly/hover like one of Da Vinci's spiraly flying contraptions? just out pops a propeller from AJ's head and away you go!

Or what about being able to launch your fist as that monster thing could from Hellboy?

Wolverine claws?

Am I really *****ting you? You decide...

jc_lemon_lime
12th Oct 2008, 03:55
i wonder if you'll be able to aug different limbs independently?:scratch: ie: a the arm-sword on your left arm, and that expanding hand thing on the right. or have night vision in one eye, and targeting in the other

Yargo
12th Oct 2008, 17:25
i wonder if you'll be able to aug different limbs independently?:scratch: ie: a the arm-sword on your left arm, and that expanding hand thing on the right. or have night vision in one eye, and targeting in the other

That would be neat though the legs would probably have to be the same.

Lazarus Ledd
12th Oct 2008, 18:11
About the 'tentacle'/bungee type augmentation.
I'm guessing, as your skills increase, those tentacles can be used for other things?
For example: capturing enemies, lifting/moving/manipulating obstacles/switches etc and also what about swimming (squid like)?


As I was saying, the aug that enables you to punch through wall can be used for punching the wall through, yes, but then use that hole to throw a flashbang, a LAM or smoke grenade and clean the room of enemies to make it easier for you to dispose of them. That could be a presentation of and upgraded aug.


But when I was saying this before, I mentioned it in a way the developer would let us play with the aug and creatively use the hole to throw a bomb of some sort.
Imagine now what could you do with the tentacles. Be creative. The theme of Deus Ex 3 is Renaissance and the point of renaissance is: creativity. Our Ideas that we make use of in the game =)

Bluey71
12th Oct 2008, 18:37
Upgrading augs - upgrading shouldnt give the aug new abilities - it should just make it better at what it already does.

If you start giving aug new abilities just by upgrading the games gonna get way out of balance.

StalinsGhost
12th Oct 2008, 18:54
With any luck we'll see more AI use of augmentations too. If the AI is up to scratch using them, it could end up for some spectacular fights :P

Igoe
12th Oct 2008, 19:54
I agree, my main gripe with DX and IW was the lack of enemy AI diversity.

Even the most advanced agents you fought did nothing more than brandish a larger than normal weapon.

Even the mighty JC had naught but a rocket launcher or a Magrail.

If the enemies are augmented, they should be able to make full use of these, even if its mostly scripted.


Also, upgrading augs SHOULD give you new abilities, otherwise there would be nothing to look forward to. I very much enjoyed the manuals that came with each aug stating what I would be able to do come the 3rd or fourth upgrade. It kind of sets the stage in your mind for "oh man, I cant wait till I get vision AND strength lvl 3 so I can choke people through walls!!!"

Instead of, "Oh boy, lvl 4 strength: now it uses even less bioenergy. Yey."

DXeXodus
13th Oct 2008, 04:32
....'claymore' that makes a cloud of buckshot explode out of adam's skin when he's surrounded by baddies how cool would that be?:eek:

Having an AOE offensive augmentation like this only makes me wonder about the type of gameplay to expect. I cannot think of many areas in Deus Ex 1 when I had enough people around me to need a "claymore" augmentation.

Mecranth
13th Oct 2008, 04:36
Thought I could think of some key characters I would like to use such a thing on.

Yargo
14th Oct 2008, 02:18
Having an AOE offensive augmentation like this only makes me wonder about the type of gameplay to expect. I cannot think of many areas in Deus Ex 1 when I had enough people around me to need a "claymore" augmentation.

I don't like it one bit nor the tentacles. Honestly there are so many other ways to stop a fall. I am starting to get the feeling that, with 20+ augs and them being far out like doc octopus, some of these augs are going to be mission specific meaning interchangeable meaning bad. I mean how many times are you going to need to stop a fall. claymore seems like a OS bag

Jerion
14th Oct 2008, 03:57
The "breaking the fall" purpose of the tentacle aug isn't that rediculous- In DX, with level 4 Speed Enhancement, you could survive a fall from the top of the Paris Cathedral to to ground below. :scratch:

Lazarus Ledd
14th Oct 2008, 05:14
The "breaking the fall" purpose of the tentacle aug isn't that rediculous- In DX, with level 4 Speed Enhancement, you could survive a fall from the top of the Paris Cathedral to to ground below. :scratch:

Now that's good thinking from a point of a gamer and I expect EM to percieve this and make it an option to use tentacles to break the fall, even though there could be another means of easing the landing =D


...like punching the wall in the midd fall and making HUGE rip in the wall on the way down :D

René
14th Oct 2008, 17:15
Honestly there are so many other ways to stop a fall.

Yep. :whistle:

Igoe
14th Oct 2008, 18:23
Leg Augmentation. :D


Going Dooooooooown!

Yargo
15th Oct 2008, 01:03
Yep. :whistle:

Whats that supposed to mean?

What I was saying was, out of all the ways to stop a fall why choose doc octopus?

jc_lemon_lime
15th Oct 2008, 02:15
Whats that supposed to mean?

What I was saying was, out of all the ways to stop a fall why choose doc octopus?

the tentacles could be very thin and wire-like: like those of a jellyfish

Yargo
15th Oct 2008, 02:36
the tentacles could be very thin and wire-like: like those of a jellyfish

I still don't think thats the best way to do it. NO TENTACLES, thats my opinion. call me narrow minded but like I said why pick one of the most far fetched ways of descending a building in a game that should be doing things logically. maybe augmented hands that let you climb down the surface like a gecko. things like that make more sense and are doable. plus bungee jumping tentacles don't seem very mechanical. :scratch:

DXeXodus
15th Oct 2008, 03:49
Whats that supposed to mean?

That my friend, was a beautifully crafted hint posted specifically at you by the community manager sitting at the Eidos Montreal HQ.


I still don't think thats the best way to do it. NO TENTACLES, thats my opinion. call me narrow minded but like I said why pick one of the most far fetched ways of descending a building in a game that should be doing things logically. maybe augmented hands that let you climb down the surface like a gecko. things like that make more sense and are doable. plus bungee jumping tentacles don't seem very mechanical. :scratch:

We don't know how it works yet really. And a "bungee" effect could be achieved by means of a telescopic-style tentacle. It doesn't need to be elastic. I think the augmentation sounds cool. But the name, well, not so much.

Lazarus Ledd
15th Oct 2008, 08:20
Yep. :whistle:

then it's not renaissance if all posibilites aren't at disposal :rasp:

foxh0und
15th Oct 2008, 09:51
Since DX3 have some Ghost in the Shell based augs already how about thermooptical camo with use for limited time like cloak in DX1 and maybe posibility to hack enemy brain and use him as remote drone to bypass security points and other stuff like turnoff turets or kill the rest of enemys at outpost by shooting them in the back :whistle: this aug should have limited time of use like hack in DX1 if you increas yours stats that time will expand. Before times up you could just disconnect from enemy brain or kill him by overload his brain. If you dont disconnect before times up you could get some damage or be spot by enemys very quickly. This just a concept for aug so its not perfect ;) .

LatwPIAT
15th Oct 2008, 10:57
Since DX3 have some Ghost in the Shell based augs already how about thermooptical camo with use for limited time like cloak in DX1 and maybe posibility to hack enemy brain and use him as remote drone to bypass security points and other stuff like turnoff turets or kill the rest of enemys at outpost by shooting them in the back :whistle: this aug should have limited time of use like hack in DX1 if you increas yours stats that time will expand. Before times up you could just disconnect from enemy brain or kill him by overload his brain. If you dont disconnect before times up you could get some damage or be spot by enemys very quickly. This just a concept for aug so its not perfect ;) .

As much as I like GitS... Brain augmentations were AFAIK new in Deus Ex 1. I seem to remember the nanoaugmentated people being the only ones with augmented brains. Hence, only JC, Paul, Simons and Page could merge with Helios. Since Paul was recovering from the killswitch and Simons was dead, only you and Page could merge.

Now, the really cool augs from GitS:SAC was the gun. In an arm. Who doesn't want guns in their arms? Oh, and the grenade launcher arm from GitS2:M/MI.

foxh0und
15th Oct 2008, 11:20
Now, the really cool augs from GitS:SAC was the gun. In an arm. Who doesn't want guns in their arms? Oh, and the grenade launcher arm from GitS2:M/MI.

Yes thats true but number of opponents with cyber brains should be limited as they could just be first test group equiped with experimental brains or something similar to justify existence of cyberbrains in game ;)

Yargo
15th Oct 2008, 13:20
We don't know how it works yet really. And a "bungee" effect could be achieved by means of a telescopic-style tentacle. It doesn't need to be elastic. I think the augmentation sounds cool. But the name, well, not so much.

If it was telescoping then there would be a limited distance that you would be able to fall and then you would be dangling:nut: I think the manner in which the back is augmented is what bothers me. Its like an add-on instead of a replacement.


... and maybe posibility to hack enemy brain and use him as remote drone to bypass security points and other stuff like turnoff turets or kill the rest of enemys at outpost by shooting them in the back :whistle: this aug should have limited time of use like hack in DX1 if you increas yours stats that time will expand. Before times up you could just disconnect from enemy brain or kill him by overload his brain. If you dont disconnect before times up you could get some damage or be spot by enemys very quickly. This just a concept for aug so its not perfect ;) .

That is a really cool suggestion. I heard it earlier in the forum. Termination seems to easy like you could go through and mind control one after the other and have them add themselves to the pile of corpses in the bathroom that you have built up. What would be cool is if they resisted a life threatening order or if you could unload their gun right before you lost control :D

!!Oh and you would only be able to control others that are augmented!!

foxh0und
15th Oct 2008, 13:59
That is a really cool suggestion. I heard it earlier in the forum. Termination seems to easy like you could go through and mind control one after the other and have them add themselves to the pile of corpses in the bathroom that you have built up. What would be cool is if they resisted a life threatening order or if you could unload their gun right before you lost control :D

!!Oh and you would only be able to control others that are augmented!!

Yes you right, if you could hack into all NPC's brains that game will be too easy as i wrote before enemys with cyberbrains should be limited and killing enemy with barin overload or gun control should be possible if you found datacube with virus and those data cubes should be just like augs containers in DX1 one-shot and just few of them like one per level maybe 2 not more so you have choose carefully who do you kill. Without those datacubes you be able only recon so basicly lookaround and with better skills you could walk but nothing more. I hope this make any sense :) sorry for my bad english.

Yargo
15th Oct 2008, 14:27
Yes you right, if you could hack into all NPC's brains that game will be too easy as i wrote before enemys with cyberbrains should be limited and killing enemy with barin overload or gun control should be possible if you found datacube with virus and those data cubes should be just like augs containers in DX1 one-shot and just few of them like one per level maybe 2 not more so you have choose carefully who do you kill. Without those datacubes you be able only recon so basicly lookaround and with better skills you could walk but nothing more. I hope this make any sense :) sorry for my bad english.

Your english is fine. I'm not sure I agree with the data cubes. Another cool addition is if you didn't assume complete control of motor functions and your "drone" started shouting for help but you could still walk around :lol:. It would go along side of your hacking skills. Skills complementing Augs would be awesome!!!!:lmao:

By cyberbrains do mean just augmented or some how completely replaced?

foxh0und
15th Oct 2008, 14:50
Your english is fine. I'm not sure I agree with the data cubes. Another cool addition is if you didn't assume complete control of motor functions and your "drone" started shouting for help but you could still walk around :lol:. It would go along side of your hacking skills. Skills complementing Augs would be awesome!!!!:lmao:

By cyberbrains do mean just augmented or some how completely replaced?

Yep that will be fun when you could lose control of enemy ;) when your skills are poor this could be random he could scream for help start runing around or starts shooting blindly, by cyberbrains i mean some implants augs like in GITS you have coplete cyborgs half or so cyborgs and 100% human with only brain implants. So if you hack in to 100% human will be only able to look around and barley move there was one episode of GITS SAC 2nd gig with similar events. If you hack in complet cyborg or human with cyborg legs the control of body motor function should be easier.

Yargo
15th Oct 2008, 15:00
Yep that will be fun when you could lose control of enemy ;) when your skills are poor this could be random he could scream for help start runing around or starts shooting blindly, by cyberbrains i mean some implants augs like in GITS you have coplete cyborgs half or so cyborgs and 100% human with only brain implants. So if you hack in to 100% human will be only able to look around and barley move there was one episode of GITS SAC 2nd gig with similar events. If you hack in complet cyborg or human with cyborg legs the control of body motor function should be easier.

I see. Never heard of GITS until this forum. guess I should check it out.

Yargo
15th Oct 2008, 15:14
Possible brain Hacking aug (Only usable on those with brain augmentations)

lvl 1 No control only observation. hearing and sight.
lvl 2 some speech interference. you can talk for them
lvl 3 gain control of motor skills. you can walk around
lvl 4 you say "jump" they only ask "how high"

hacking correlation

untrained- random chance of success/ high probability of control loss/ constant resistance from subject
trained- better chances/ med. probability of control loss/ less resitance
advanced- good chances/ low probability/ little resistance
master- great odds of success with a rare instances of control loss/ and hardly any resistance.

By no means is this my Idea. Just thought I would throw the concept out there though.

foxh0und
15th Oct 2008, 15:23
Possible brain Hacking aug (Only usable on those with brain augmentations)

lvl 1 No control only observation. hearing and sight.
lvl 2 some speech interference. you can talk for them
lvl 3 gain control of motor skills. you can walk around
lvl 4 you say "jump" they only ask "how high"

hacking correlation

untrained- random chance of success/ high probability of control loss/ constant resistance from subject
trained- better chances/ med. probability of control loss/ less resitance
advanced- good chances/ low probability/ little resistance
master- great odds of success with a rare instances of control loss/ and hardly any resistance.

By no means is this my Idea. Just thought I would throw the concept out there though.

Nice but still i think datacubes or something like that for full controll (shooting and brain overload) will be good choice, without this limitation game will be too easy

Yargo
15th Oct 2008, 18:45
Nice but still i think datacubes or something like that for full controll (shooting and brain overload) will be good choice, without this limitation game will be too easy

Well from the looks of it DX3 is during a time where augs are going to be a point of segregation. So there won't be to many Augmented people. Even in DX most of your mj12 and unatco guys where not augmented. So this (if implemented) would be one of those augs/skills that hardly help in the beginning but towards the end is a major help (maybe only effects mj12 commando-like characters). Another thing is you might suffer a lot for upgrading this aug instead of the more combat based augs/skills, and full control only comes with the full upgrade. I think the kill switch kind of device won't be necessary especially if the boss-like characters are immune/resistant to this aug :)

Maybe augmentation overload could be a seperate aug?

ewanlaing
15th Oct 2008, 18:54
All the augs sound great to me so far, but I'm a little apprehensive about the martial arts one, with Adam unleashing a combo of martial arts at the press of a button. It all sounds a bit 'Spiderman: The Videogame:" for me.
Of course, I'm sure it's not as silly as it seems in my head when you actually see it. It just doesn't seem to make sense as an aug.

Yargo
15th Oct 2008, 18:58
All the augs sound great to me so far, but I'm a little apprehensive about the martial arts one, with Adam unleashing a combo of martial arts at the press of a button. It all sounds a bit 'Spiderman: The Videogame:" for me.
Of course, I'm sure it's not as silly as it seems in my head when you actually see it. It just doesn't seem to make sense as an aug.

I haven't seen that one, maybe its just more effective hand to hand like dx1's melee increase?

Lazarus Ledd
15th Oct 2008, 19:47
Since these are all mechanical augmentations, I wonder that means we can use them longer or infintely that the bio-cell-powered augs in DX1&2, hmmm??

Yargo
15th Oct 2008, 23:32
Since these are all mechanical augmentations, I wonder that means we can use them longer or infintely that the bio-cell-powered augs in DX1&2, hmmm??

Well they still need power..... so i dno?

DX3
16th Oct 2008, 12:14
Hello Everyone,

Im new to this forum and to the game itself too, The first game
came around a few times but that was 8 years ago and I wasn't
really ready for the game or couldn't understand it's deeper meaning
at the time.
I guess I liked playing games with little to think about, that however
changed when I played TNS an earlier title of Eidos and Quantic Dream.
I've Seen walktrough's about Deus Ex and Invisible war and was
really blown away of the non- linear gameplay choices you had, it was
so nicely done, even not trying to kill anyone and just look at the result
was a welcome way to play.
As for a lot of games the freedom of how and when becomes a larger
aspect for gamers, freedom is important just like real life, and I think
the people at Eidos Montreal are going to do a great job if they really
know the ups and downs by having played themselfses the 2 games.
Now that was a lot of chitchat and I am now going to present a few
ideas if they can still be implemented somehow.

1: I would like too see mobile camera's in the game, meaning little
crawlers also in ventilation shaft.
If you disable a camera however let someone investigate the matter
and not pretend like their harcore technology isn't worth a dime.

2: Perhaps if you got a rambo fragging up the place send in special
death-squads with superior augmentations to deal with any
rambo gamers

3: An augmentation that lets you crawl upon buildings choosing a
different approach entering a ( high building, etc) reffering to
the hand and feet augmentations, here the idea of mobile camera's
makes up for an intense climb.

4: And could you make a riotscene's when the protagonist comes
up against civillians that hate the augmentated and pick up firearms
or other weapons, not every civillian of course but some fanatics

Well that's about it I guess, I think these upgrades could intensify the
realism to the game.

DX3

ZylonBane
16th Oct 2008, 13:59
Im new to this forum
Then you should be made aware that you don't have to hit the Enter key at the end of each line.

Also, that the apostrophe character doesn't mean "Look out, an 'S' is coming!".

Flobulon
16th Oct 2008, 14:22
Then you should be made aware that you don't have to hit the Enter key at the end of each line.

Also, that the apostrophe character doesn't mean "Look out, an 'S' is coming!".

Talk about a warm welcome.

Anyway, some nice ideas here, although many of them have been brought up before in various threads. You should check out some of the other threads, especially this one (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=80968).

René
16th Oct 2008, 16:06
Merged.

ZylonBane
16th Oct 2008, 16:49
Talk about a warm welcome.
Hey, when someone registers on a forum to talk about Deus Ex 3, and actually names themself "DX3", it's reasonable to conclude that a blunt approach is the only thing that will get through.

jc_lemon_lime
21st Oct 2008, 03:48
Since these are all mechanical augmentations, I wonder that means we can use them longer or infintely that the bio-cell-powered augs in DX1&2, hmmm??

i think that the bio-cell power system really makes more sence with mechanical (servo?) based augs, than nano-machanical ones that essenatially act as cells of a person's body

Lady_Of_The_Vine
1st Dec 2008, 00:30
^
Yes, that would make sense. :)

Yargo
1st Dec 2008, 07:07
I hope they get the whole power source idea right. Technically a mechanically Aug'd person would need power just to move their mechanical limbs. If the Aug's used a Bio-electric model then energy would be depleted just by walking around. Self powered primary function would however be a good solution. It would then take power to use the more specific Aug's. I'm interested in seeing how they will explain self powered Aug's or whatever strategy they use.

Igoe
1st Dec 2008, 19:48
TECHNICALLY speaking, if a person was augemnted mechanically, their new limbs might weigh as much as they did. They would need an elaborate brace built into their skeleton to support the new weights, and the limbs them selves would need to be driven in order to not kill the person.

Think about if you were holding 50 lb weights in each hand, now try going about daily activities. How tired would you be? How high could you move your arms before you fell forward?

It's easily explained away in a game by not even bringing it up, its just a game, right? But as soon as you start talking realism you have to start including everything that goes with it. Like an internal power source to drive all those parts (and don't say it's plastic, I saw the diagrams, I see all the metal parts inside, even a foot long blade)

K^2
1st Dec 2008, 20:13
Any time you are going to make limbs stronger, you are going to have to reinforce the entire skeletal. That goes without saying. Within normal human range, that results from training along with stronger muscles. If you go beyond human strength, you'll need extra support. The only question is how it is done. Some of these reinforcements can be done as exoskeletal supports. Others will require bone and joint replacements. Exoskeletal supports to carry extra weight already exist. As for replacing weight-bearing bones, depends. But if we accept that they can replace limbs, why not?

As for power supply, it doesn't need to be that powerful. A human uses up about 100W on average. A single horse power is a little over 700W. A tiny combustion engine, netting a couple of horse powers, can already make a huge difference. With current developments in batteries, it could, reasonably, be driven electrically as well.

Yargo
1st Dec 2008, 22:23
Both comments above

A light weight metal or carbon nanotube could be used for the mechanical limb making the prostheses the same weight if not lighter! As for power supply I would want a self producing supply before I offered up my limbs. Batteries? Really? Forget to charge your leg overnight and your stuck in a wheel chair. not my idea of advanced technology.

WTO SpecOp #1136
1st Dec 2008, 23:50
I think DX3 might house both mechanical and bio augmentations. I kinda makes sense after looking at the screen shots. For example, there might be a system where you can buy bio mods (very expensive) or you can buy mechanical mods (cheaper but might require maintenance). Some of the augmentations are more synthetic while some look like they use some pretty heavy hardware. To incorporate this into the game would be interesting to see. :thumbsup:

jc_lemon_lime
2nd Dec 2008, 02:25
I think DX3 might house both mechanical and bio augmentations. I kinda makes sense after looking at the screen shots. For example, there might be a system where you can buy bio mods (very expensive) or you can buy mechanical mods (cheaper but might require maintenance). Some of the augmentations are more synthetic while some look like they use some pretty heavy hardware. To incorporate this into the game would be interesting to see. :thumbsup:

i like that idea. it could also pave the way for a sub-plot and side quests involving rivalries between mech-aug and gene-aug fringe groups.

WTO SpecOp #1136
2nd Dec 2008, 02:38
Great idea. It would be like the mechanical augs in the lower parts of city while the rich that live in the upper parts have the concealed bio augs

Wildeheart
2nd Dec 2008, 10:21
Has anyone thought about the number of augs that are going to be available - 20 seems like a lot to get through, especially if you expect this game to be shorter than DX1. Im saying its going to be shorter because thats the trend these days.

20 seems a lot to get through in a short space of time.

That's fine by me, all the more replay value! ;)

Yerky
2nd Dec 2008, 19:50
Holographic decoy emitter - Lets the player set up holographic decoys and trigger them remotely or with proximity. The device can project disturbing images to frighten enemies, images of the player character or wounded friends to lure enemies, or images of walls to keep enemies from giving chase.

Califragilistic targeting system - An eye augmentation that uses a laser range finder and a weapon's laser sight to calculate bullet trajectories and place shots directly where the player's targeting reticle is. Can also be used to direct close air support.

Holographic facial and vocal re-constructor - A face augmentation that changes the player's facial and voice features to subvert enemy suspicions.

Mk 218 super jammer - A head augmentation that delivers short lived but highly powerful jamming transmissions across all communication frequencies which thwart all [enemy?] communications.

Wheel feet - A leg augmentation that replaces feet with wheels.

Yerky
2nd Dec 2008, 20:03
Ideally I would like there to be a lot of augmentations to choose from so players can mix and match for their favorite load out. For example: players might want to be able to fall from very tall heights without taking damage. They might use a strong legs augmentation but since they already have a leg augmentation they would have to choose a back augmentation that releases a parachute or grappling hook. I think augmentations should require a specialized facility to have them installed and special equipment to upgrade. I don't want them to be permanent but I don't want them so easy to swap out that I can change them five times per level.

APostLife
3rd Dec 2008, 06:35
I'm ok with augmentations, unless EM make silly augmentations. Cough Cough.

GmanPro
3rd Dec 2008, 06:38
I liked the augs that had uses outside of combat. I always thought it was cool when I could turn on my strength aug and move some crates around to reach a higher level and gain entry through a window.

Yargo
3rd Dec 2008, 16:05
Augs are one of my favorite components of DX. I'm gonna need some BA augs :cool:

Yerky
3rd Dec 2008, 21:19
What are you talking about APostlELite? Wheel feet would eliminate head bob and reticle dilation whilst moving.

Yargo
3rd Dec 2008, 21:26
What are you talking about APostlELite? Wheel feet would eliminate head bob and reticle dilation whilst moving.

But they would be wheels for feet. ;)

jc_lemon_lime
4th Dec 2008, 05:30
i would like to see an arm based aug that increase adam's dextarity and hand speed. i.e. being able to draw and aim a gun much faster, or parrying attacks and disarming enemies in CQC.

also, wheel feet? stop this now, this is much too silly! (he says in graham chapman's voice...)

Yargo
4th Dec 2008, 05:47
I prefer the reverse knee as a leg augmentation. Like an ostrich. It would allow for greater speed! Try sitting down though :D

K^2
4th Dec 2008, 13:55
It's no big deal. You just turn the chair around and sit.

Yargo
4th Dec 2008, 17:36
It's no big deal. You just turn the chair around and sit.

I think I can see that but it would still be awkward. :scratch:

Lady_Of_The_Vine
20th Dec 2008, 23:21
Funny! :D

jc_lemon_lime
23rd Dec 2008, 07:15
i wonder if the ballistic protection aug will make a comeback? i really missed having it in IW.

to balence out it's power, they could make it one of the augs that makes Adam look less human. ie: being able to see plates of carbor fiber or whatever under his skin

Necros
23rd Dec 2008, 08:23
If that has an effect on the people around him when they see or talk to him, then it's a good idea. :thumbsup:

Space Siege was supposed to have something like this and they even had a "humanity meter" but it didn't do anything significant (like they promised... :rolleyes:), only one or two characters didn't want to talk to us. Big deal, they weren't good for anything anyway... :mad2: Man, that game was a big letdown... :(

LatwPIAT
23rd Dec 2008, 12:11
Semi-crossposting from another thread, I think a "Fake Death" aug would be nice. When activated, all signs of life cease, and Jensen collapses, unable to move. However, most, if not all, enemies cease firing and attacking, since they're sure you're dead. The aug can then be deactivated, and Jensen comes back to life, with the enemies blissfully unaware of his ressurection. Of course, enemies won't be fooled twice.

Additionally, using it near bases could have the interesting effect of being brought inside the base in order to hide the corpse or check if he is truly dead, allowing for another way to infiltrate.

Necros
23rd Dec 2008, 16:19
Additionally, using it near bases could have the interesting effect of being brought inside the base in order to hide the corpse or check if he is truly dead, allowing for another way to infiltrate.
Hm, not a bad idea, I like it! :thumbsup:

GmanPro
23rd Dec 2008, 18:59
Any smart guard would just shoot you in the head execution style... just to be safe.

Necros
23rd Dec 2008, 19:42
Not necessarily, some guards for sure but all of them shouldn't be like that, and it should also depend on the company they work for, and any spectators or police officers in the area have to be a factor too.

GmanPro
23rd Dec 2008, 20:08
Ok well if a police officer watches a fire fight in the middle of a street, they aren't just going to let those involved go. They especially wont let them drag AJ off into their little enclave.

I guess someone might want to drag AJ off for scrap metal lol...

LatwPIAT
23rd Dec 2008, 20:31
Ok well if a police officer watches a fire fight in the middle of a street, they aren't just going to let those involved go. They especially wont let them drag AJ off into their little enclave.

I guess someone might want to drag AJ off for scrap metal lol...

But what if we're fighting the police? Would the execute an already dead man then?

GmanPro
23rd Dec 2008, 21:03
In an age where people have half of their bodies replaced with metal machinery, I think that a little paranoia wouldn't be out of the question. Especially when the police are non-augmented and have to deal with crazy mechs. It would probably be like today's police trying to bring down someone who is jacked up on methamphetamine. Except worse...

NK007
23rd Dec 2008, 21:10
Then they'd just put you in a black bag and drive you to the morgue in the other side of town lol... sorry, but I don't know why this whole idea strikes me as silly. If I saw a person lying face down with no blood, I'd think he was homeless... I guess if I'd be a cop or soldier or security I'd check him to ask if he was ok, or kick him, then call in an ambulance. I don't think I'd put him inside anywhere that is top secret. I know so, lol. I guess it could be fun to do though, once or twice, in the context of the game in some scripted event or something.

jc_lemon_lime
24th Dec 2008, 04:29
i don't think it's a silly idea. if you're in a gun battle with someone, and you see them pitch forward and stop moving, you would likely assume that they had been hit and killed. and if the shooters were illuminati or mj-12 agents attacking out in they open, i doubt they would take the extra time before escaping to check shot placement and risk being caught by metro police, or being seen by whitnesses.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Jan 2009, 01:47
Either way, I'm looking forward to the challenge of survival! :cool: :D

qJohnnyp
12th Jan 2009, 01:52
A retractable Aeon arm
http://i44.tinypic.com/jjus8w.jpg
and links to how it works (WARNING: drastic)
http://i44.tinypic.com/huk9zm.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/2k50k.jpg
A large retractable blade
http://i41.tinypic.com/vmsjgg.jpg
An arm-gun
http://i43.tinypic.com/xgmo35.jpg
Anna Navarre was supposed to have one.


Those augs come from a manga by Hiroki Endo entitled Eden: It's an Endless World! which is full of fantastic cyberpunk augmentations and imagery. And it's aesthetic is very similar to those augs we've seen so far in DX3, see for yourself:
http://i39.tinypic.com/33o2puw.jpg
I wouldn't mind if such augs appeared in DX3.

Apart from that... maybe hair used as gills, as seen in Ghost in the Shell 2:MMI?

Djenghis
12th Jan 2009, 18:51
Tentacles just sounds silly to me.
Bungee jumping? pls no.

Adam shouldn't become a spiderman imitation.

I would prefer augmentations to replace the skill system, so there would be no skill system at all.

qJohnnyp
12th Jan 2009, 19:16
Tentacles just sounds silly to me.
Bungee jumping? pls no.

Adam shouldn't become a spiderman imitation.

I would prefer augmentations to replace the skill system, so there would be no skill system at all.

I want to think of this as a rappeling line (like the one used in Splinter Cell, but with a sci-fi twist)... I sure hope the writers of the article overexaggerated the idea. It would be quite a a useful tool in an agent's arsenal, actually. would give new ways to leave buildings.

If augs replaced the skill system it would be like... Invisible War -_- and we don't want much to return from that game.

cjc813
12th Jan 2009, 20:01
I don't think we have a dedicated thread to discuss DX3 augmentations, do we?
Couldn't see one in the sticky list thread. If I missed it, please feel free to merge this one... and sorry. :o

It would be nice to read all augmentation discussion in one place instead of scattered around in different threads. Gets confusing to keep up with the flow. :nut:
So, I'll start.



About the 'tentacle'/bungee type augmentation.
I'm guessing, as your skills increase, those tentacles can be used for other things?
For example: capturing enemies, lifting/moving/manipulating obstacles/switches etc and also what about swimming (squid like)?

If you have a copy of PCZone magazine, the image of the underground station has some sort of blue-coloured projection (to the far right) of a person with long trailing tentacles attached. He appears to be immersed in deep water... could be the sea, or a tank?

Unfortunately, we don't seem to have a clear image of this section of the scan on the forum (unless I missed it somewhere?) so I couldn't add in here - maybe MrP or another member can give us a close up? Thank you. :)

Anyway, hopefully lots of you have purchased the magazine and know what I'm talking about? :p

So there's an aug that turns you into Doc Oc?

And NO ONE has a problem with this?

First of all...
"Oh look, I got flashy tentacles. I'm cool swinging around."
*golf clap*

Secondly, does it seem to anyone else that these prequel augs are MORE high tech than the crap that JC and the gang had?

I mean, from what I've read, mechanical or not, this is some seriously powerful stuff.

Do you really think UNATCO would downgrad the combat effectiveness of their primary operatives for the sake of cosmetic appeal?

Maybe for covert-ops... but the nano tech was gonna become standard.

And it sounds like... a downgrade.

GmanPro
12th Jan 2009, 20:57
A $90 billion downgrade to quote Simons...

qJohnnyp
12th Jan 2009, 20:59
http://i44.tinypic.com/jjus8w.jpg

Actually, if the tentacle looked like this, well... I wouldn't mind, I do like that design a lot. It's retractable after all, concealed easily

Ghostface
13th Jan 2009, 04:46
JC probably just appears less powerful due to graphical limitations. If they remade the game he would probably seem a lot more powerful.

LatwPIAT
13th Jan 2009, 07:45
A retractable Aeon arm
http://i44.tinypic.com/jjus8w.jpg
and links to how it works (WARNING: drastic)
http://i44.tinypic.com/huk9zm.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/2k50k.jpg
A large retractable blade
http://i41.tinypic.com/vmsjgg.jpg
An arm-gun
http://i43.tinypic.com/xgmo35.jpg
Anna Navarre was supposed to have one.


Those augs come from a manga by Hiroki Endo entitled Eden: It's an Endless World! which is full of fantastic cyberpunk augmentations and imagery. And it's aesthetic is very similar to those augs we've seen so far in DX3, see for yourself:
http://i39.tinypic.com/33o2puw.jpg
I wouldn't mind if such augs appeared in DX3.

Apart from that... maybe hair used as gills, as seen in Ghost in the Shell 2:MMI?

Ooooh! I have volume 1 of that! Didn't that series also have a shotgun in someone's arm that fired flechettes and a magazine autoloader hidden in somebody's underarm?

While it would be pretty neat to have gill hair, I think that would be too advanced for what is supposed to be "crude" mech-augs. Rather, mech-augs would probably have a refinery in their chests.

karrok483
13th Jan 2009, 11:35
So there's an aug that turns you into Doc Oc?

And NO ONE has a problem with this?

First of all...
"Oh look, I got flashy tentacles. I'm cool swinging around."
*golf clap*

Secondly, does it seem to anyone else that these prequel augs are MORE high tech than the crap that JC and the gang had?

I mean, from what I've read, mechanical or not, this is some seriously powerful stuff.

Do you really think UNATCO would downgrad the combat effectiveness of their primary operatives for the sake of cosmetic appeal?

Maybe for covert-ops... but the nano tech was gonna become standard.

And it sounds like... a downgrade.

I think the reason for the hi-tech augs in a prequel could be blamed on the Gray Death. Maybe after the plague hit the world went into a great big economic crash and almost all development of augs shut down.except for of course the nano-augmentation program :D

gamer0004
13th Jan 2009, 13:52
JC probably just appears less powerful due to graphical limitations. If they remade the game he would probably seem a lot more powerful.

That's nonsense. First of all, it wasn't there (no matter what they wanted to do) and the game was great. Secondly, they implemented many things which they wanted to do with DX in IW and see how that game turned out. Deus Ex is not the usual lame GitS or something.

qJohnnyp
13th Jan 2009, 15:26
lame GitS

I wish Deus Ex had more from 'lame' GitS actually. :whistle:


Ooooh! I have volume 1 of that! Didn't that series also have a shotgun in someone's arm that fired flechettes and a magazine autoloader hidden in somebody's underarm?

I can't really remember this but... well, that's an aug I'd love to see in DX3!

Ghostface
13th Jan 2009, 19:31
I wish Deus Ex had more from 'lame' GitS actually. :whistle:

:thumb:


I can't really remember this but... well, that's an aug I'd love to see in DX3!
I wouldnt mind having the shotgun either:cool:

K^2
13th Jan 2009, 19:47
I wish Deus Ex had more from 'lame' GitS actually. :whistle:
Just looking at the pictures of some augs released by EM, that's the direction it is heading. DX was more Blade Runner, less GitS. Looks like DX3 will be the other way around.

qJohnnyp
15th Jan 2009, 23:49
Just looking at the pictures of some augs released by EM, that's the direction it is heading. DX was more Blade Runner, less GitS. Looks like DX3 will be the other way around.

Well, The Mamuroo Oshii movie is very Blade Runner-ish (the whole city of Newport/Hong Kong has the same feel), and there was no Stand Alone Complex back then. I have seen a balance between Blade Runner and GitS themes in the original Deus Ex.

qJohnnyp
16th Jan 2009, 02:02
TECHNICALLY speaking, if a person was augemnted mechanically, their new limbs might weigh as much as they did. They would need an elaborate brace built into their skeleton to support the new weights, and the limbs them selves would need to be driven in order to not kill the person.

Think about if you were holding 50 lb weights in each hand, now try going about daily activities. How tired would you be? How high could you move your arms before you fell forward?

It's easily explained away in a game by not even bringing it up, its just a game, right? But as soon as you start talking realism you have to start including everything that goes with it. Like an internal power source to drive all those parts (and don't say it's plastic, I saw the diagrams, I see all the metal parts inside, even a foot long blade)

Kevlar, diamond coatings, carbon nanotubes, ceramics, graphene, biopolymers, bulk nanostructured metal, isracast silk, synthetic muscles... Some technical terms that could be used to explain those bionic augmentations being lightweight and having properties shown in the game (promotional material, okay).
It mustn't be metal and crude plastic or unobtainium. We have existing and emerging technologies in prosthetics and materials that might evolve into augs like those seen in Deus Ex.

Still, this rule applies, to a certain extent:
http://i39.tinypic.com/jujnh2.jpg
so the brace you mentioned might be required, if not for supporting the limbs weight, then whatever it might be lifting. Either that or replacing part of the skeleton with synthetics.
Though the example of 50kg in GitS is kind of too small.

LatwPIAT
18th Jan 2009, 15:25
Still, this rule applies, to a certain extent:
http://i39.tinypic.com/jujnh2.jpg
so the brace you mentioned might be required, if not for supporting the limbs weight, then whatever it might be lifting. Either that or replacing part of the skeleton with synthetics.
Though the example of 50kg in GitS is kind of too small.

I allways loved those small details...
On a related note, I remember reading about Garth Ennis' Global Frequency (Or I think it was Garth Ennis'.) where a character has a cyborg arm, and needs to have it braced to the other arm so it won't fall of due to it's a) weight and b) strength.

I also remember, but cannot find, a footnote from GitS where Shirow talks about all the myriad ways to communicate for cyborgs, including direct link, laser, IR, WLAN, etc. I think he even mentioned modem. Now how cool wouldn't that be? You buy an old modem at a downtown market, sneak into an office, install it. Then, you call it with your own phone, and and use an aug that turns your voice into analouge 2600 Baud tones that control the computer via the modem.

qJohnnyp
18th Jan 2009, 16:42
I allways loved those small details...
On a related note, I remember reading about Garth Ennis' Global Frequency (Or I think it was Garth Ennis'.) where a character has a cyborg arm, and needs to have it braced to the other arm so it won't fall of due to it's a) weight and b) strength.

I also remember, but cannot find, a footnote from GitS where Shirow talks about all the myriad ways to communicate for cyborgs, including direct link, laser, IR, WLAN, etc. I think he even mentioned modem. Now how cool wouldn't that be? You buy an old modem at a downtown market, sneak into an office, install it. Then, you call it with your own phone, and and use an aug that turns your voice into analouge 2600 Baud tones that control the computer via the modem.
Sure sounds cool, but the time required for those operations would be propably too long.
Techlepathy, as seen in GitS now has more possible mediums, such as Near-Field Magnetic Communication (http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=960) and HAN (Human Area Network) (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/23/human_area_network/). It's fun to see those technologies out of Cyberpunk being developed and commercialised.

About the arm: using a molecular scaffold and merging the bionic arm with the flesh would be a good idea to increase durabilily.

LatwPIAT
18th Jan 2009, 19:16
Sure sounds cool, but the time required for those operations would be propably too long.
<snip>
About the arm: using a molecular scaffold and merging the bionic arm with the flesh would be a good idea to increase durabilily.

1: If we were forced to do it, sure. If it was a valid possibility just like Lockpicks and Multitools, I don't see why not. This also ties in with the Mobile Phone idea in that other thread.

2: That would probably solve the weight issue, but you don't want the arm ripping flesh apart if you give it too much power. We both know how badly that works when fighting tanks. Instead, I'd anchor it to the other side of the body, so it can't rip anything apart, but will rather pull the whole body. Say, if you hold in two parallel, opposite metal pipes in a corridor and pull with your cybernetic arm, I'd imagine it's easier, in a fit of rage, to tear the arm loose from some flesh and a bone, than it is to hold onto the beam with the organic arm so hard your organic arm is ripped apart, especially because in one case you have your own body weight on your side, and in the second case your body weight works to the advantage of the mechanical arm.

luminar
22nd Jan 2009, 21:46
does anybody know if there will be a mechanical aug version of the bioelectricity in the first game? me personally i hope notbecause its very similar to mana and... ive never liked mana. so i think they should let you have only one aug active at a time or have a severe penlty for having two augs active at a time. also possibly a safe period of usage would be implemented and after you exceed this safe period you start taking damage because your joints and parts are overheating and loosening, and also possibly after that your augs are inactive until you cool down. this could be represented by smoke rolling off you or something similar to that.

LatwPIAT
23rd Jan 2009, 22:50
does anybody know if there will be a mechanical aug version of the bioelectricity in the first game? me personally i hope notbecause its very similar to mana and... ive never liked mana. so i think they should let you have only one aug active at a time or have a severe penlty for having two augs active at a time. also possibly a safe period of usage would be implemented and after you exceed this safe period you start taking damage because your joints and parts are overheating and loosening, and also possibly after that your augs are inactive until you cool down. this could be represented by smoke rolling off you or something similar to that.

Bioelectricity is a resource, just like everything else. It's similar to mana in that you use it to use skills, but it is also similar to a battery in that you use electricity to do stuff. Just like you use hit-points to avoid sudden death. It's all a part of resource management. And, unlike mana, there's nothing more magical about it than a battery (Mana-based magic ("Vancian magic") is basically based around batteries to begin with, or perhaps chemistry. I'm not sure when Jack Vance lived.)

Alex Jacobson
24th Jan 2009, 04:34
I think for the most part the augmentation system should stay close to that of Deus Ex 1. Augs should not be interchangeable like in IW and installation should require the proper facilities to do so. Things like hacking and lock picking should be character skills and not augs. I got a creepy crawly feeling when I found out how augs worked in IW the first time I played.

Sabretooth1
28th Jan 2009, 04:03
I think for the most part the augmentation system should stay close to that of Deus Ex 1. Augs should not be interchangeable like in IW and installation should require the proper facilities to do so. Things like hacking and lock picking should be character skills and not augs. I got a creepy crawly feeling when I found out how augs worked in IW the first time I played.
That Czech post pretty much confirms that hacking and lockpicking will be included as augmentations. It makes sense, if you ask me. In mech augmentation, you can just augment your fingers into lockpicking tools or USB ports. :D

But yeah, installation should require proper facilities and should be permanent. I'd like to believe that mech augmentation was tedious and complex, so they'd better not blow it by putting Instant Augmentation packs in supermarkets. :p

Toivoton
2nd Feb 2009, 21:26
Bioelectricity is a resource, just like everything else. It's similar to mana in that you use it to use skills, but it is also similar to a battery in that you use electricity to do stuff. Just like you use hit-points to avoid sudden death. It's all a part of resource management. And, unlike mana, there's nothing more magical about it than a battery (Mana-based magic ("Vancian magic") is basically based around batteries to begin with, or perhaps chemistry. I'm not sure when Jack Vance lived.)

I always thought Vancian magic was the system that you had certain spells you could use a specific amount (like D&D up to 3.5), not mana.. Could be wrong tho since I couldnt find a good definition with a fast search..

Well anyway. I really hope they use either a regening mana system or no mana system. (yeah I'm campaining against resource management in this thread too..) I feel that punishing people too hard for using their abilities causes them to not use them. (I dont think I used other augs then regen and ballistic shield during my first playtrough) The challenges should be designed so that you have to use all your augs and other tools if you want to progress and perhaps have a regening pool in case you have augs that would be overpowering to use all the time (instead of bursting them when approriate) such as invulnerability or something. And even then it might be better to use heat or something for the single augs.

For ideas on lowprofile augs, I'd recommend checking the pen and paper version of Shadowrun. For more.. lets say fantastic stuff, you should check Cyberpunk 2020 (or the new one tho I dont know anything about that one) and if you want some really amusing stuff - Rifts.

As to the bungeeropes.. Well they are ok as long as long as the rest of the augs are that flamboyant as well. Would have preferred if they had kept the augs more low-key tho. Would fit the dx world better.

The more low-key tech in dx1 can be easily explained by it being nanotech. It is by nature less visible and you simply cant do grossly nonhuman stuff as easily with it. Its advantage is in being less invasive and less visible. I'm actually a wee bit shocked that they didnt use that in dx1 - everyone just somehow magically saw that you were a mech.

GmanPro
2nd Feb 2009, 22:08
I feel that punishing people too hard for using their abilities causes them to not use them.

Yes? So ... ? Use other abilities/tactics. That's how it works in real life.


The challenges should be designed so that you have to use all your augs and other tools if you want to progress and perhaps have a regening pool in case you have augs that would be overpowering to use all the time (instead of bursting them when approriate) such as invulnerability or something.

Maybe you just didn't word this sentence properly, but it sounds like your saying that the player needs to be forced to use certain abilities in order to progress to the next stage of the game ... as opposed to simply presenting the player with a challenge and allowing them to choose their own path based on their personal play-style (which is the whole point of a DX game).

Toivoton
3rd Feb 2009, 00:39
Yes? So ... ? Use other abilities/tactics. That's how it works in real life.



Maybe you just didn't word this sentence properly, but it sounds like your saying that the player needs to be forced to use certain abilities in order to progress to the next stage of the game ... as opposed to simply presenting the player with a challenge and allowing them to choose their own path based on their personal play-style (which is the whole point of a DX game).

I didn't mean that you should make specific abilities to progress, but that the game should be hard enough that you had to use all that you have.

Lets take an example. You are trying to get away after killing one of the conspiracy's leaders. As you get closer to the metro station that is the only realistic way to get away from the rapidly closing pursuit force, you see that the metro enterance is flanked by two heavily armed cyborgs. You also notice that one of them is a leader and you know from experience that if a group has a leader, it is at least 5 strong. Also from experience you know that the group is hard to impossible to take out in a fair fight.

Now I think that these are the situations you should be facing regularly and you should really be tested even if you use every item, every aug and all your skill and even then you should be almost dead afterwards.

Now you should be able to approach them depending on how you have built your character.

A full on combat monster should just sigh, rely on his defensive mods and cybernetic weapons combined with his pimped out weapons, launching a rocket or two at the cyborgs outside and charge in after them to try to take out the ones outside before the ones inside can join the fray. He couldnt drop the outsiders fast enough so he had to endure the entire groups fire for most of the fight and now he's heavily damaged and out of tricks after he drops the two outside in ten seconds of intense combat. So he hits the 3 remaining with a concussion burst from an aug and drops some fast acting smoke grenades as he uses his great speed to run off. The 3 remaining cyborgs are almost as fast but due to the leaders death, disorganised and not searching as a team. That makes the player able to lose them and duck into a a side alley to heal for a couple of minutes before heading back to the metro station finding only one of the 3 cyborgs was back from the search, which he quickly takes down and heads to the metro.

A player focusing more on stealth would lay down some mines and other explosives before using his stealth augs to sneak close to the leader, decapitating him using his strenght aug and a good blade and then head off running into the mine infested alley he prepared for the occasion making sure the other cyborg sees him going there. He waits at the end of the alley with a sniper rifle in hand and gets a good shot off on the first pursuer who drops after stepping on a mine. Since the others are getting close enough to hit well, he detonates the explosives in the alley which drops the cyborg further into the alley and the others are a bit damaged and head back uneager to play minesweeper. The player squeeses off a couple of shots to make them run faster, activates his stealth mods and heads off after them. As suspected, the leaderless cyborgs didnt leave anyone to guard the station (they are all trying to find another way to get to the player) and the player sneaks into the metro.

A player focusing more on tech would hack the police network and get a nearby police combat robot under his control, ordering the robot to walk to the metro and take down the leader. When the robot makes its move, he hacks into the metro security triggering alarms to confuse the cyborgs inside and using the security turrets to try to take out the cyborgs inside. He isn't lucky. First of all the robot failed to take out the leader - he saw it coming and ducked into cover before the heavy autocannon rounds could blow him up. Also downstairs the cyborgs vere all damaged, but took out the turrets before they could do any serious harm. Also because the leader is still alive, they took out all physical parts of the security system knowing it was hacked. Now he throws a tiny robot to provide feed for him from the inside and notes that as expected the cyborgs are waiting for him in good cover, but he can see no other enterances and he knows the pursuers will be there soon so he programs the combat bot to go in after him guns blazing, chooses a few grenades and drops a smoke at the corner. Then he throws a couple of flashbangs and a couple of EMG grenades at the cyborgs (that he knows the locations of due to seeing them on camera) and charges for cover shooting his biggest gun at the back of the group that he knows had the 2 anti-tank launchers, but only managed to suppress one of them enough and when the robot comes in heavy weapons blazing, it is taken down fast and professionally. Now the cyborgs fast close the escape route and the player is taken down soon after.

The "social" player would use his mask aug to make himself look like something other then the dangerous fugitive the police is looking for and find the nearest police and (aug augmented) sweet-talk him into believing that he just saw the cyborg drag kill and drag in a fellow police officer and call for backup. Now the police wouldnt actually attack the cyborgs, but they would cause enough confusion (particularly if the player does the same thing to some of the civilians around) that the player is able to sneak past (perhaps looking like a police officer).

The I dont want to use augs guy puts down some mines, shoots at the cyborgs from outside managing to wing the leader, but not quite dropping him and heads out to his mine alley to try to bait them into coming after, but no luck since with their leader alive, they know that its pointless since he has to come to them. The player notices and goes to whine on the forums that the game is too hard.

They all used everything that had and You just cant balance the last one with the rest and if you balance it for him, the others just walk over them.

Notice how these all are basically just FPS game parts. There are several ways to go at it, but in the end it is a combat game. Now if you really think that there has to be resource management and intend that the player is to be low on ammo, energy and hp's, the encounter has to be A LOT easier to make sure that you can get trough it even if you only have for example only ammo for direct fire weapons and are at half health.

Also - only 2 of them used a single common aug (the run speed one), but all of them DID have to use all advantages they had (even tho unlikely every single aug and weapon they had). Actually that should be kinda design too - you should be able to be good at one approach and at least ok in another to prevent you from having to find the specific approach to a problem and instead having a couple that you know you could use. (such as having the combat monster and techie "approaches" in mind when you choose your augs and equipment and being able to take either even tho you would be a bit better at one of them)

So no - needing to have a single specific aug (say the bungeejumping one) is stupid, but being forced to use everything you have to progress is good because it makes you think on how do you do this with what you have.

There is no real challenge on any single "scene" in dx1 (well ok I havent played on realistic). At least I always had enough resources stocked up that I could blow enough of them that anything would be easy. THAT is what happens if you are allowed to have resources in a game that doesnt focus on them: Everything becomes just a strain on resources and stuff is only scary when you suck or have just lost you stash due to something and have very very little of them.

GmanPro
3rd Feb 2009, 00:58
You are missing the bigger picture. You should not be forced to fight these guys at all. I would find the side passage or vent and simply bypass everyone. Especially if I was low on ammunition. It might take some lockpicks to get the side passage open, and maybe some multitools to disable the security system. But if that suits my play style, then so be it.

Toivoton
3rd Feb 2009, 10:39
You are missing the bigger picture. You should not be forced to fight these guys at all. I would find the side passage or vent and simply bypass everyone. Especially if I was low on ammunition. It might take some lockpicks to get the side passage open, and maybe some multitools to disable the security system. But if that suits my play style, then so be it.

Ah the vent crawling solution.. I do not think that should be something they really should implement constantly. I mean as I see it it has 3 major flaws: 1. It is not something that you can imagine an agent/soldier doing. It's kinda in the same category as going trough trash cans - it just breaks atmosphere. 2. You are skipping parts of the game. 3. You can't plan resource management (should you have it) if you can choose what encounters to tackle.

Now dont get me wrong - I'm not at all against nonviolent solutions to problems. Just that skipping stuff by using a vent shouldn't be one of them. I'm ok with having a side passage so you can lockpick and perhaps start the fight from a bit of an advantage. Actually intended to put this in the example with the techie, but I thought it was better to have him die for the encounter to look hard. I'm also ok if you for example were able to hack comms in the place you were running from and mess around with pursuit orders to have yourself a clean getaway route or perhaps even going to the helipad to steal some transportation. Having the player think ahead should be rewarded. However they should take some doing and not just be a vent somewhere.

Vents just feel like the devs were saying "Well we couldn't be assed to do this properly so we just put a vent there for the noncombat people".

Mindmute
3rd Feb 2009, 14:49
Vents just feel like the devs were saying "Well we couldn't be assed to do this properly so we just put a vent there for the noncombat people".

Honestly, the fact you can end the game fighting any enemy or no enemy based on what you want to do is testimony that they could be arsed to do everything properly.

DX was all about choices and the vents added yet another choice.




I don't understand why you say they made you skip parts of the game when they were just another means to get from point A to point B.
Some vents even led to "hidden" parts of the maps, so I could argue that by fighting everyone and never taking any vents that you skipped parts of the game (just using your logic).

As for being something than an agent wouldn't do, if the oppurtunity is presented, you can be sure that someone infiltrating a coumpound will jump onto a vent if it's big enough and leads him close to where he wants to go.
Most vents in the game were not "quick-win" solutions, they simply offered a different way to approach a fight, a target, or to sneak past those damn turrets to disable them and more often than not, you had to pick through a lot of fixed security to get to them.

Toivoton
3rd Feb 2009, 20:01
I don't understand why you say they made you skip parts of the game when they were just another means to get from point A to point B. Some vents even led to "hidden" parts of the maps, so I could argue that by fighting everyone and never taking any vents that you skipped parts of the game (just using your logic).

I have to admit I can't remember dx1 well enough to respond to that properly. I only remember spending a lot of time in them. I was responding to Gman's post that said you should be able to bypass the cyborgs in my example using a vent.


As for being something than an agent wouldn't do, if the oppurtunity is presented, you can be sure that someone infiltrating a coumpound will jump onto a vent if it's big enough and leads him close to where he wants to go.
Most vents in the game were not "quick-win" solutions, they simply offered a different way to approach a fight, a target, or to sneak past those damn turrets to disable them and more often than not, you had to pick through a lot of fixed security to get to them.

Yeah an agent would go into a vent. However it should be very rare to prevent you just seeing a vent and going "ooh a shortcut!". It's the behavior it teaches that I feel is the problem. If very few vents would actually lead anywhere and some would actually be very dangerous, you would only check them if you REALLY don't like your other options. That would make it closer to what you would do in real life in a similar situation.

Having some alternate routes is great - it rewards exploring and makes the "pipe" feel a bit less restricting. However you should have to get trough encounters like the example I made. There shouldn't be a vent at every fight allowing to bypass it. That doesn't mean that the only solution should be to make you have to just go in and shoot them till they are dead.

Sabretooth1
6th Feb 2009, 14:07
Well, vents weren't always trouble-free. Invisible War had spider-bots in the vents a lot of times, and some of the vents in Deus Ex were designed with more complexity than simple point A to point B (examples being the Battery Park and Castle Clinton vents), where sometimes they led you straight into the enemies.

I think that's how vents should remain: gambles, it may be a shortcut, it may take you to the end of a barrel.

payne
11th Feb 2009, 22:07
i have an aug for you people.

a sex update:wave:

AaronJ
11th Feb 2009, 22:44
i have an aug for you people.

a sex update:wave:

This is the kind of person you WANT to see be eaten by 4chan.

LatwPIAT
12th Feb 2009, 06:33
Indeed. I think he would benefit greatly from an intelligence-enchanting aug. Or possibly a social aug that enforces a minimum of politeness.

pha
12th Feb 2009, 07:56
Sadly, it's people like him who form the majority of the gaming market nowadays. And inevitably most games are designed for their capacity.

payne
12th Feb 2009, 14:37
hey... guess what you people...

i got a 130 QI score;)

gamer0004
12th Feb 2009, 16:16
hey... guess what you people...

i got a 130 QI score;)

Well, that's French IQ... So that's about... 70 in the rest of the world...

LatwPIAT
13th Feb 2009, 07:27
Well, that's French IQ... So that's about... 70 in the rest of the world...

Hey, don't insult the French! The French are awesome. Except for the guy above, who has a fairly high IQ, yet fails to realize that IQ is merely a measurement of one's ability to solve IQ tests, and completely irrelevant. In fact, believing IQ to be a measure of intelligence is a sign of lack such.

But, before this goes too far... how about an aug that allows easy espionage? It would contain a directional/laser microphone and a zoom function, so you could listen in on conversation and see passwords/keycodes being typed.

WhatsHisFace
13th Feb 2009, 16:06
hey... guess what you people...

i got a 130 QI score;)

Obviously that doesn't mean much, since you can't properly capitalize letters, use simple punctuation, or even put the letters "I" and "Q" into the right order.

LatwPIAT
15th Feb 2009, 10:03
Oooh! Got a new idea!

I was reminiscing about Myst yesterday, and remembered that the book to Spaceship Age was locked by a a musical lock that required setting five sliders to the right five tones to open.

So, what if we encounter a door like that in DX3? It requires a short musical passcode. Now of course, that wpould not be the only way to open the door; we could just hack it or rip it off the hinges, or you know, walk around it, but it would be an option. We find the tones in one place, and the lock in another. The obvious solution is to be a musician and be cappable of remembering and reconizing the five tones in our heads. This isn't very fair to us semi-tone-deaf, so what if one of the augs we can get, as a bi-effect, has a small panel that appears on the GUI that displays the pitch of the sound in the area? Activate it when playing the key in one place, note down the pitch, then activate it when using the lock, and use it to replicate the picth.

In addition to whatever other effect this hearing aug has (eavesdropping?) it also has a bi-effect that a perceptive or smart player can take advantage of. Of coure, it would have to be well implemented and possibly be an effect that can be used multiple times over.

Thoughts?

pha
15th Feb 2009, 22:24
There was a musical puzzle in Omikron. I should reinstall it sometime, thanks for reminding me. Oh and about your suggestion, why is typing a musical code with notes better than typing a numeric code with a keypad?

Jerion
15th Feb 2009, 22:31
^^ He might have been spellbound by the musical code puzzle in FO3.

As for why it's better....I dunno. :scratch:

LatwPIAT
16th Feb 2009, 08:46
There was a musical puzzle in Omikron. I should reinstall it sometime, thanks for reminding me. Oh and about your suggestion, why is typing a musical code with notes better than typing a numeric code with a keypad?
Well, first of all it's hardly a puzzle if all you do is have to remember a passcode. I would be a change from the mundanity of noting down numbers, require a little more skill or ingenuity, and it can be used to characterize someone. Say, if you're trying to break into an opera singer's house, then a musical door would tell you they're slightly obsessed and paranoid wouldn't it? Or if it was in a lab, it would tell you the scientist is also very proud of his ability to carry a clean tone.

^^ He might have been spellbound by the musical code puzzle in FO3.

Ahem. No. Myst. I haven't played Fallout 3.

Jerion
16th Feb 2009, 09:00
Well, first of all it's hardly a puzzle if all you do is have to remember a passcode. I would be a change from the mundanity of noting down numbers, require a little more skill or ingenuity, and it can be used to characterize someone. Say, if you're trying to break into an opera singer's house, then a musical door would tell you they're slightly obsessed and paranoid wouldn't it? Or if it was in a lab, it would tell you the scientist is also very proud of his ability to carry a clean tone.


Perhaps if only used in a few cases, like matching notes to the tones emitted on a keypad it would be useful. Hmmm. I Like! :thumb:


Ahem. No. Myst. I haven't played Fallout 3.

I stand corrected. :)

pha
16th Feb 2009, 09:43
Say, if you're trying to break into an opera singer's house, then a musical door would tell you they're slightly obsessed and paranoid wouldn't it?


AFAIK Rene said something about hacking like "You won't have to do it if you don't want to". So I support this as long as it's not mandatory.

Sabretooth1
16th Feb 2009, 13:44
Well, first of all it's hardly a puzzle if all you do is have to remember a passcode. I would be a change from the mundanity of noting down numbers, require a little more skill or ingenuity, and it can be used to characterize someone. Say, if you're trying to break into an opera singer's house, then a musical door would tell you they're slightly obsessed and paranoid wouldn't it? Or if it was in a lab, it would tell you the scientist is also very proud of his ability to carry a clean tone.
Well, practically speaking, I can't quite imagine standard keypads being replaced by musical notes for any professional reasons whatsoever. Besides, Deus Ex firmly uses good ol' keypads, so this being a prequel will have to do the same.

And in any case, while musical puzzles are fun, they would be almost useless in the real world. They would be too easy to replicate, since all you need is a microphone in hearing range. And how would you tell someone what the code is if you need to give it to them? (Oh, just go to the keypad and enter "Ta-da-dum-dum-da-ta-da!").

LatwPIAT
16th Feb 2009, 17:20
Well, practically speaking, I can't quite imagine standard keypads being replaced by musical notes for any professional reasons whatsoever.
Paranoia, insanity, pride, arrogance, excentricity...

Besides, Deus Ex firmly uses good ol' keypads, so this being a prequel will have to do the same.

Deus Ex used keypads because we weren't breaking into the homes of excentric opera singers or the alike, but military instalations. Thus, there is nothing in the way of finding one in an opera-singers home now would there?


And in any case, while musical puzzles are fun, they would be almost useless in the real world. They would be too easy to replicate, since all you need is a microphone in hearing range.

If they're in a public places yes, but if they're in someone's house, they'd probably not expect anyone to have a microphone there when they striking the code in. And hey, headphones. Now people can't listen in.


And how would you tell someone what the code is if you need to give it to them? (Oh, just go to the keypad and enter "Ta-da-dum-dum-da-ta-da!").
A note sheet? That's how you tell someone how to do it in real life. "C' followed by C# D, D G F# C' C' D#" or something along those lines. Besides, if you're excentric enough to use sound as a key, then you're probably not expecting to give the code away a lot in the first place.