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StalinsGhost
10th Oct 2008, 09:11
The Alternative Regenerating Health Model - ARHM

There's no doubt that the regenerating health model is a point of contention within the FPS world. Certainly, it's no more pronounced than in a sequel to a game famed for its emphasis on forcing the player to adapt to only having a limited amount of resources - especially the all important medi-kit. What I propose here is an alternative, incorporating health-regeneration, options for further upgrade, an implementation of location based damage, and most of all, the return of the medi-bot.

Here are the major design mechanics I propose:

Limited Health Regeneration

My model: Max Payne. Gasp as you may, harking back to the nightmare of quicksaving required to progress in the game, it had a fundementally interesting, perhaps slightly innovative and entirely overlooked function - a tiny amount of health regeneration at all times; perhaps in the realm of 25%. You could be on deaths door, Max limping about as he got himself together, and you would have just enough health to make it through to the next set of painkillers. I will emphasise, I am one of these guys who nervously makes their way around levels trying to retain full ammo and health at all times, but once I forced myself through (going mad with quicksaving), I discovered this was actually a very fun way of playing it.

What does this mean for the ARHM? Well I propose DE3 implements an (upgradable) limited, or partial health recharge. At the start of the game, your mechanical architecture is capable of a limited self-repair. Perhaps in the realm of 1/4-1/3 recharge. To reach full health, you need to find a medi-bot.

Location Based Damage

This is probably the riskiest suggestion for my proposal - I get the idea that developers don't like it based on the potential for *gasp* too much complexity.

I propose that Location Based Damage is reimplemented into the series. In to my model, there is a chance of taking damage to specific body parts that may or may not do a certain amount of damage to them - basically ala' Deus Ex. Each location has a specific effect on the player - get hit in the head and you become concussed - perhaps the player's vision could blur or even black out for example. Being hit in the arms obviously reduces strength/accuracy. Being hit in the legs would cause increasing amounts of limping/reduction in speed.

The Limited Recharge augmentation can at first not heal these wounds at first. Leading me onto...

The Regeneration Augmentation

This works entirely under the assumption that the Mechanical-Augmentions will work similarily to Deus Ex 1 and 2's. You pick a mod, you fit it, you can upgrade it. I propose 4 stages for the ARHM


Stage 1 - Limited Health Recharge : The body is capable of steming blood flow and applying splints to shattered bones until the operative is able to reach a qualified surgeon or medical unit
Stage 2 - Improved Health Regeneration: The body is capable of repairing up to 50% of the wounds inflicted, as well as allowing it to return limbs to a damaged but usable status
Stage 3 - Exceptional Health Regeneration: The body can repair itself to the point of complete health, though extensive limb damage is not fully repairable
Stage 4 - Full Body Regeneration: The body is capable of full health recharge, full limb recharge and also improves damage allocation, dissipating damage around the body


These are the basics of the ARHM. I also propose the following:

Medi-Bots

As mentioned before, Medi-Bots are for the first 2 levels of health augmention, the only way of restoring full health and limb damage. Furthermore, I would suggest it be possible to be able to hack a Medi-Bot so that it follows the player around.

Stimpacks

Possibly, each level of augmention could allow the player to apply a "Stimpack" that drains biomod energy (should it be implemented)

The basic level of augmentation could have a single "stimpack" function, restoring a certain amount of health, but having a long recharge - say 1-2 minutes.

The second level of augmention simply has 2 of these stimpacks.

The third level of augmention allows the operative to "overcharge" to 150% health.

The fourth level of augmention allows the operative to "overcharge" to 200% health.

Conclusion

Admittedly, this is a very rough idea, basically thought up over the space of about 30 minutes after responding to a thread elsewhere discussing regenerating health in FPS games.

What I do think it does, is add a level of complexity to a controversial but necessary game mechanic (avoiding damn quickloading all the time!) that Deus Ex deserves. It's also designed with the Deus Ex context in mind. You're a Cyborg, you should have some pretty hefty augmentations. This one would allow the play who wants to go in guns blazing to do so - to basically become a human tank of sorts - just as the game's setting suggests Mechanical Augmentations could do.

It also allows the player who doesn't want to "that invincible feel" that health regeneration in other games apparently gives to avoid it. It's entirely optional. Perhaps installing it could prohibit the use of another, particularly stealth orientated augmention?

I'm hoping this thread doesn't flag under the deluge of rants and raves, since I think it is worthy of some detailed consideration. And I hope that some how this reaches the developers for some consideration, no matter how limited that may be. In fact, sod that, I hope that the team already has some interesting ideas in mind for making the regenerating health an interesting mechanic in Deus Ex 3.

Thanks for reading my admittedly expansive post, and if anyone has any further ideas, it would be great to see them in here.

pauldenton
10th Oct 2008, 14:44
Just give us back Deus ex :mad2:

StalinsGhost
10th Oct 2008, 16:00
Nicely written. While the ratios and numbers may need some adjustment for balance, I like the general idea. Unfortunately the actual system will be nothing like it. :(

Thanks :)

Yeah, the numbers definitely aren't there, and this kind of thing would need extensive balance testing. But it would be nice to see a balance between old-style Deus Ex and new trends in the genre.

@pauldenton

Here you go. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sold-Out-Software-Deus-Ex/dp/B00008RMB1/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1223657664&sr=8-1

Big Orange
10th Oct 2008, 16:16
Those are good ideas, StalinsGhost, and for all we know we could all be pleasantly surprised and the infamous auto-healing for DX3 won't be as convenient and arcade'y as Halo's.

StalinsGhost
10th Oct 2008, 16:27
Those are good ideas, StalinsGhost, and for all we know we could all be pleasantly surprised and the infamous auto-healing for DX3 won't be as convenient and arcade'y as Halo's.

I certainly hope so anyway :D

ZylonBane
10th Oct 2008, 16:55
The trick here is figuring out what's guiding the developer's judgment in deciding to introduce an auto-heal system.

If their desire is to avoid situations where the player is screwed because they're pinned down in a tough combat situation with absolutely no way to heal, then that's a valid concern. To prevent this, I would have no problem with a very limited and/or slow auto-heal mechanism.

If, on the other hand, they want to make combat in DX3 more like Halo, with lots of shooting and little strategic thought, then they should all be beaten severely, then fired. Then beaten again.

K^2
10th Oct 2008, 18:36
I like the idea of having an upper cap on health regen. 1/2 health should be enough to slowly limp through the game, but it also leaves room for strategic use of med packs and for locational damage.

If, on the other hand, they want to make combat in DX3 more like Halo, with lots of shooting and little strategic thought, then they should all be beaten severely, then fired.
From the cannon, right?

Larington
10th Oct 2008, 19:30
Yeah, I can understand both sides of the issue. On one hand you've got a situation where most players (Particularly part time players - I refuse to use the phrase 'casual' - who don't have the patience and/or time to find extra cash/hiding places that allow the sourcing of healing tools like medkits.) but at the same time I see the concern that this changes the healing model to one that feels and plays very unnaturally, I'm not saying DX1s healing system is perfect but it ain't bad especially as theres different ways of being healed (Though more would've been nice).

Additionally, there is the in combat difficulty issue. DX1s system encourages the player to play cleverly and make good use of augmentations or to pick off the enemy and observe patrol routes and such before striking, but if the healing system allows you dive into situations where you duck behind cover, get re-healed, and the AI doesn't know how to prevent the player from abusing that trick then you have a balance issue where an abuse of a weakness in the design makes the game too easy to win in a charge in and fight way.

Out of combat auto-regen seems alright in my mind, since it reduces the dependency on searching for healing tools without having too great an impact on in combat gameplay balance or abuse of a weakness in a particular gameplay style/mechanic.

And yeah, I'd say theres plenty of room to balance it based on how much of your health auto-regens. This system allows you to save healing tools for preparation before the big fights.

3nails4you
10th Oct 2008, 19:46
Perhaps they can integrate this idea of regenerating health with the original DX system...different body parts autoheal at different rates and bandages/augmentations can speed up the process. Good stuff.

v.dog
10th Oct 2008, 20:18
The amount and speed of regeneration should be tied to the difficulty level, players on easy have 'Halo', players on normal have ARHM, and those on realistic have none.

This way you can please everybody; you can choose how easy you want the game to be.

Here's a thought- what if there was a custom difficulty setting in addition to the presets (ala System Shock 1) whereby you could choose individual settings for AI level, damage dealt, damage taken, hack/pick difficulty, health regen level/speed, pick up availability.

I'll admit this could lead to balancing issues, but most of the players who choose this option would understand the risk, and you could always make it changeable on the fly.

ZylonBane
10th Oct 2008, 20:32
Something that I would like to see changed from DX (and pretty much every FPS) is the way medkits are handled. Using a medkit should be an actual in-game action that takes a second or two to perform, and doesn't instantly slam your health up. This would solve the problem of medkits becoming essentially a second health bar. To heal, you'd actually have to disengage from combat, stop to patch yourself up, then wait a few seconds for the healing to take full effect (like the health potions in classic Thief behaved).

The idea that you can somehow apply a medkit while simultaneously running and gunning is, after all, really absurd if you stop to think about it.

I would of course still like to have the option of an upgradeable healing aug as in the first game. Preferably with an "auto-on" option. Having to manually turn that thing on every time I needed healing was a pain in the neck.

StalinsGhost
10th Oct 2008, 20:35
Something that I would like to see changed from DX (and pretty much every FPS) is the way medkits are handled. Using a medkit should be an actual in-game action that takes a second or two to perform, and doesn't immediately take full effect. This would solve the problem of medkits becoming essentially a second health bar. To heal, you'd actually have to disengage from combat.

The idea that you can somehow apply a medkit while simultaneously running and gunning is, after all, really absurd if you stop to think about it.

Yeah, agreed on that point. Interestingly, I'll once turn to Max Payne as an example to cite - in that it took time for the painkillers to take effect - you took the pain killers, and your health gradually restored.

Mr. Perfect
10th Oct 2008, 20:43
You definitely put a lot of thought into this, which is impressive. Most people simply say whether they like the idea or not.

Personally, I don't see why they don't use the auto-regeneration augmentation/biomod from the first two games. For players who wanted autoheal, they could install the appropriate upgrade.

What's more, choosing autoheal had a price! This wasn't something to be taken lightly, as it would prevent you from having some other augmentation or biomod that might be just as desirable. Also, the healing itself had a cost. Sure, at tech level 4 you could just about regrow an arm every minute, but it wasn't limitless. You had to have bioelectrical energy for the healing to work, and using the energy for healing might keep you from using other augmentations.

Whoever thought out how the augmentation/biomod, healbot, food, and medkit system in the previous games worked did so very carefully. Especially in the first one, where damage had diffrent effects based on location and severity. Odds are, it was multiple people, and it evolved over the development time to fit the play style of the game they intended for the franchise.



If, on the other hand, they want to make combat in DX3 more like Halo, with lots of shooting and little strategic thought, then they should all be beaten severely, then fired. Then beaten again.From the cannon, right?

Revelations, chapter 5, verse 7. Consult verse 8 for beating methods, their graphic nature violates the forum's posting guidelines.:eek:

jordan_a
10th Oct 2008, 20:52
(Is this the only health thread so far?)

StalinsGhost
10th Oct 2008, 21:01
(Is this the only health thread so far?)

I haven't really looked on this forum, but on every blog and forum I've seen the PCZ article being discussed, the new health has been a major point of contention.

jordan_a
10th Oct 2008, 21:10
I knew it, there (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=80744) is the health thread.

ZylonBane
10th Oct 2008, 21:35
I haven't really looked on this forum, but on every blog and forum I've seen the PCZ article being discussed, the new health has been a major point of contention.
Unfortunately, the contention seems to be between the developers and every gamer on the planet.

StalinsGhost
10th Oct 2008, 21:45
I knew it, there (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=80744) is the health thread.

Ah yeah... I'd still say this one deserves being seperate given it's a pretty extensive look at alternatives... as opposed to just flaming/embracing an arbitrary "regenerating health" feature.


Unfortunately, the contention seems to be between the developers and every gamer on the planet.

Indeed :/ Seems the response may have been underestimated - they should have maybe waited on revealing this until it could be explained in greater detail maybe. We shall see.

Larington
10th Oct 2008, 22:42
I'm sure I've seen one or two other games try a heal-over-time effect for medical tools before, but I can't think of a specific example at the moment. I suspect one of the major things that puts developers off of using that system is that some players might find the 'wait for it to take full effect' element to cause the frustration curve to be a little higher than the developer is comfortable with, so they pretend insta-heal medicine isn't an issue (And it isn't until the player stops and thinks about it, most probably don't).

I feel obliged to say this thread should be left unhampered for the moment, theres a lot less sarcasm showing here than in the 6 page health thread, something that does the discussion a very big favour (I'm sure its mostly because people have had a chance to stop and take a breath now).

StalinsGhost
11th Oct 2008, 17:37
I feel obliged to say this thread should be left unhampered for the moment, theres a lot less sarcasm showing here than in the 6 page health thread, something that does the discussion a very big favour (I'm sure its mostly because people have had a chance to stop and take a breath now).

Totally agreed. So many people will jump the gun and either cry out against the changes being made to the "entirely perfect system" used in Deus Ex without really thinking any deeper into the changes. Problem is, getting people to discuss things which might actually help the development seems a lot harder for people to comprehend that knee-jerk responses that dominate most discussion of game mechanic changes.

Dead-Eye
11th Oct 2008, 19:03
Here's a thought- what if there was a custom difficulty setting in addition to the presets (ala System Shock 1) whereby you could choose individual settings for AI level, damage dealt, damage taken, hack/pick difficulty, health regen level/speed, pick up availability.

I highly disagree. The settings in System Shock should not be implemented in Deus Ex because it screws up the flow of the game. The developers make the game playable on all difficulties (easy, normal, hard, realistic) witch takes 4 times a long as just making it for one difficulty, if you have something like SS1 then all of a sudden they need to spend hours of time balancing a game that can be 32 different games all in one, greatly increasing the time it will take to make the game. Time they could have spent making the health system work.

As for the health system. It would be nice because in Deus Ex 1 if you lost your legs you usually had to reload your game. However it can greatly screw up the game play of Deus Ex. Deus Ex allows the player to find different ways to archive there goals. Some players would become hacker/lock pickers and avoid combat as much as possible. Others would increase there rifle skill and there Regen augmentation in order to be better at combat. An auto heal system like Crysis/Halo would make the option of being a combat oriented player too easy. This would mean that players would usually not become a hacker/lock picker because it would be illogical. It's kind of like starting Deus Ex with the heal regain augmentation right off the bat and unlimited bio energy for it. Why would players become the Hacker/lock picker or stealth take down character when you already have a major advantage if you become the head on gun welding guy.

Now of course there are a lot of ways to counter this health system in fact it could even add something to game play. Lets explain how we would do it if we where implementing it in Deus Ex. If I were making Deus Ex with this system what I would do is add a plus one hit point every two seconds to a player who is under 25hp in the target area of the body. This would allow a new option for the player to go hide and recover a small amount of health up to 25hp in all areas of the body when badly damaged. However 25 HP in all areas is not something a player would consider prime health for going head on head with just about anyone. More then 2 NSF at a time and you are as good as dead. The player would need to find a new way to accomplish there goals other then going gun's blazing. For example they would need to use stealth or hacking/lock picking. This would actually add something to the game because you would not need to reload you game every time you lose your legs.

THE MAIN POINT:
Please don't insult our intelligence as gamers because some players won't be able to "think" on how they should accomplish goals in the game. Deus Ex is the "Thinking man's shooter." not some POS generic shooter that only needs an I.Q. of about 12 to play. Deus Ex 3 should force us to think.

Larington
11th Oct 2008, 19:25
I think I should point out that a system which tries to maximise giving the player as much choice as posible about individual gameplay mechanics (Like auto regen rate) isn't so much about throwing all these choices at the player and leaving them to pick and choose, but rather to provide 4 basic options (easy, medium, hard, realistic) and then having a customise button which opens up a deeper menu.

The developers only have to balance the 4 basic options, leaving the player to make a specific element harder/easier/different if he/she really wants to. Most will ignore it, others might use it to have fun with the game after completing it the first time, or to do special kinds of run-through (Similar to say, a no kill run in the original).

El_Bel
11th Oct 2008, 21:22
I am just wondering. Does it matter what we say? Is there any chance of changing anything? Can we have some kind of dialog with the people who thought of that? And even if we had a conversation with them, can they have an open mind? Or will it seem like we attack their creation and they must defend it? Can WE keep an open mind?

StalinsGhost
11th Oct 2008, 21:38
I am just wondering. Does it matter what we say? Is there any chance of changing anything? Can we have some kind of dialog with the people who thought of that? And even if we had a conversation with them, can they have an open mind? Or will it seem like we attack their creation and they must defend it? Can WE keep an open mind?

I'm guessing the game is still in a relatively early period of development - one where things can and will change from now until it goes gold.

Think of it this way. If no-one says anything, they'll just head down a path of their own. It could be what people want, or it may not. But the more detailed, carefully thought out suggestions and discussions there are, the more scope there is for them understanding what would prove successful.

100,000 angry gamers crying over the health regen will change nothing. 100 actually perhaps offering some interesting criticism and discussion can help, and the developers are far more likely to respond to that than hundreds of pages of flaming.

A good comparison would be Fallout 3 - Bethesda have been inundated with flame to the point where it is very hard to read any decent suggestions. They've even admitted the only thing for them to do was to put their heads down and get on with it because they'd never make everyone happy.

So basically, keeping our cool, thinking about things in a constructive way, as I think this thread has so far will do a lot more good than simply *****ing about it will.

AaronJ
11th Oct 2008, 21:47
Like I've said before, Uni Ammo has been recreated. But I think it's useless to get into this, I believe EM to be smart enough to notice the mass amount of disapproval of such a stupid idea and change it. It's not even in beta yet guys...

StalinsGhost
20th Oct 2008, 11:10
Like I've said before, Uni Ammo has been recreated. But I think it's useless to get into this, I believe EM to be smart enough to notice the mass amount of disapproval of such a stupid idea and change it. It's not even in beta yet guys...

Precisely the kind of attitude that will get us nowhere. The devs are not going to revert to an older mechanic they've already decided is not fit for DE3. What they are more likely to do is to look at constructive suggestions and ideas that take into account what they are doing with the game.

foxberg
20th Oct 2008, 17:58
The game will be s**t. Auto-healing, uni-ammo... How about built-in God mode by default so every 5 year old would be able to play it as well in MP with his grand ma?

imported_van_HellSing
20th Oct 2008, 18:02
Weren't you supposed to leave? I'm disappointed.

Lazarus Ledd
20th Oct 2008, 18:08
THE MAIN POINT:
Please don't insult our intelligence as gamers because some players won't be able to "think" on how they should accomplish goals in the game. Deus Ex is the "Thinking man's shooter." not some POS generic shooter that only needs an I.Q. of about 12 to play. Deus Ex 3 should force us to think.


Listen to the man

ZylonBane
20th Oct 2008, 18:15
That is the fundamental question Eidos Montreal is attempting to answer-- How do you make a thinking-man's shooter that you can play without having to think?

They're horribly doomed, of course.

foxberg
20th Oct 2008, 18:16
Maybe they should introduce "Van Helsing to the rescue" scenario?

gamer0004
20th Oct 2008, 18:21
The game will be s**t. Auto-healing, uni-ammo... How about built-in God mode by default so every 5 year old would be able to play it as well in MP with his grand ma?

Yes, however, there will be no uni ammo!

But:
-auto healing
-no skillpoints for weapons (er, this was like, the main point about the DX skill system)
-no sneaking (because a cover based "sneak" system is in fact not a sneak system at all. If it was, than would all modern and possibly all FPS ever created be an FPS/sneak hybrid and they aren't).

So yes, gameplay-wise we're screwed. But wait! We still have the DX realm which will be expanded by this game!
Oh wait, I forgot EM gave DX the finger and decided that they could come up with a world more interesting and immersive (with triple barreled pistols? please...) than that of DX.
Oh, but thank god we still have a proper DX style...
Wait... I can't recall so much as hints at any renaissanse style in DX, or a "we'll put everything that the average 12 year old boy will find awesome" approach (once again, triple barreled pistols? Lasers everywhere? Overly, to the point of foolishness, complex "mechanical" augmentations? Mechanical tentacles :scratch: ?)

We're totally screwed, face it. We'll have to try to enjoy "DX"3 as what it will probably be - an offense to DX, but a thoroughly enjoyable game in its own right.

imported_van_HellSing
20th Oct 2008, 18:35
As if the original didn't have it's share of idiotic design decisions :rolleyes:

I was REALLY torn when I first read the previews/saw the pics. But after the initial shock, with more info I read more I thought about it, it occured to me that I pretty much like everything except for the auto-healing.

Hey, if IW was as good as DX and the only problem was universal ammo, I'd probably like it.

gamer0004
20th Oct 2008, 18:42
As if the original didn't have it's share of idiotic design decisions :rolleyes:


Plasma rifle? And the mutant generator at A-51, but that one was more a gameplay choice than a (proper) storyline choice... And the spy drone. But even those (especially the first and the third) were often criticized as being "too futuristic" and "unrealistic".

imported_van_HellSing
20th Oct 2008, 18:50
I don't necessarily mean story/universe-wise. Gameplay feckups are also a major factor. Useless/overpowered abilities and augs, things like the uber laser pointer of death etc. Don't get me started on hacking.

foxberg
20th Oct 2008, 19:14
As if the original didn't have it's share of idiotic design decisions :rolleyes:

I was REALLY torn when I first read the previews/saw the pics. But after the initial shock, with more info I read more I thought about it, it occured to me that I pretty much like everything except for the auto-healing.

Hey, if IW was as good as DX and the only problem was universal ammo, I'd probably like it.

The first one was THE game. The best ever made hitherto, still the best made to date. IW was nothing like DX gaming experience wise. Diluted, degenerated to appeal to wider base of "gamers" (read: age group from 7 to 12). The only way Eidos could have "topped" the original if the they developed a sequel keeping the essence of the original. That would mean keeping skill points, different ammo, med kits, augmentation through med bots, etc. Even Dentons "family" presence wouldn't be as important as those criteria.

imported_van_HellSing
20th Oct 2008, 19:19
By the way, unified ammo is not in DX3. Skill points, however, are.

foxberg
20th Oct 2008, 19:27
Look, I just hope that I'm wrong and the game would exceed my expectations that are based on what I've read so far. When IW came out I even bought xBox just so I could play it because they didn't release Mac version. Needless to say I was rather disappointed.

René
20th Oct 2008, 19:35
We're totally screwed, face it. We'll have to try to enjoy "DX"3 as what it will probably be - an offense to DX...

And when Sheldon Pacotti is brought on board to consult with Mary DeMarle and our writing team...?

imported_van_HellSing
20th Oct 2008, 19:39
Sheldon worked on IW too though, as did much of the core DX1 team :P

René
20th Oct 2008, 19:47
Sheldon worked on IW too though, as did much of the core DX1 team :P

True, but I think "an offense to DX" is a big exaggeration! Remember the posts (http://kotaku.com/5059182/more-deus-ex-3-details-emerge): "the dev has even drafted in the consultative talents of original writer Sheldon Pacotti, while also gaining the blessing of both Harvey Smith and Warren Spector on the project".

Whether or not you liked IW, one has to admit that our team is doing their Deus Ex homework.

imported_van_HellSing
20th Oct 2008, 19:53
I am not denying that, never did. Actually, it was pretty much what I thought after seeing (and digesting) the original teaser :).

René
20th Oct 2008, 19:55
^^

Yeah that too. I guess I was mostly replying to gamer0004's post. :nut:

ZylonBane
20th Oct 2008, 20:20
True, but I think "an offense to DX" is a big exaggeration! Remember the posts (http://kotaku.com/5059182/more-deus-ex-3-details-emerge): "the dev has even drafted in the consultative talents of original writer Sheldon Pacotti, while also gaining the blessing of both Harvey Smith and Warren Spector on the project".
To be fair, Invisible War had even more blessing from Harvey Smith and Warren Spector. You're going to have to accept that, in the wake of IW, your team is very much in the situation of, "Anyone can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?"

It's revelations like the auto-healing and XP-consuming guns that are calling into question your walking abilities.

René
20th Oct 2008, 20:43
To be fair, Invisible War had even more blessing from Harvey Smith and Warren Spector. You're going to have to accept that, in the wake of IW, your team is very much in the situation of, "Anyone can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?"

Fair enough. Time will tell. :)

DXeXodus
21st Oct 2008, 04:01
[EDIT] *Nevermind*

Dead-Eye
21st Oct 2008, 08:14
Fair enough. Time will tell. :)

There is something I would like to point out in my limited understanding of game design. I completely understand that you guys are trying to cater to a larger audience that's what your job is. You are trying to make a games that will sell well. That's fine. However that is also what invisible war did and they totally screwed it up, Big time. By trying to cater to the Xbox live crowed the completely alienated and destroyed ties to the original fans. Included in there failure was the fact that IW wasn't vary good game to your average Xbox live player further adding to the downfall of the DX franchise. Edios would have never considered making DX 3 if EM hadn't fought to make it as there first game. As a fan I thank you guys for that. However there are things you guys really need to know and understand about Deus Ex.

To demonstrate this I will tell you about a few other games vary much like Deus Ex. That is System Shock 2 and Bioshock. Both game are good but System shock 2 is a great game a classic that I will remember when I'm on my death bed as one of the classic games of it's day. Bioshock on the other hand is a fairly good game but it's Pop Art and as such will be dimly remember upon in the future when other pop art come's out. This brings us to one of my points. Bioshock catered to an audience using systems based off System Shock 2. That's all fine to me because they are not the same game but Bioshock had major flaws that would alienate fans of System Shock 2 if they were making System Shock 3. Like the fact that you can't die, and that it was overly simplified. It's OK to simplify things, but only if when simplifying them it doesn't take away from what the game was in the first place.

Choices have to be made for the game that help reinforce what the game is, System Shock 2 might just be the scariest THING! ever. Bioshock is not scary at all. That's fine because Bioshock is not the same game therefore it dose not need to hold up the themes/ideologys of System Shock it only uses some and tosses others. However Deus Ex 3 is Deus Ex and as such it needs to present the themes/ideologys of Deus Ex. This means that when making decisions you need to clearly understand what themes/ideologys Deus Ex holds true, and if making these choices takes away from or adds to the themes/ideologys of of Deus Ex.

Auto-Heal in the way that Call of Duty 4, Halo, Gears of War present it do not support the themes/ideologys of Deus Ex. It is pop art that is being included in games because it helps sails. I know that if you list the themes/ideologys of Deus Ex on a board and ask yourself dose auto-heal add to or take away from these themes/ideologys you will find some contradictions. You may say that it doesn't but it dose but in a way that may not be completely clear. Auto-Heal is an ideology in it's own right. What it dose is completely change the way players fight in an FPS. No longer do you need to find ways to heal yourself you can win any situation simply by hiding behind a rock. What is the fighting style of Deus Ex? It is not something that I can say in three words. It is not a "Stop and Pop" shooter. It's something far more complex. Why? Because a major theme in Deus Ex is that Deus Ex tries to be as realistic as a first person shooter can be. Is Auto Heal Real? No. It's anything but real. This contradiction ruins an aspect of what Deus Ex is and therefor alienates the fans only because Edios wonted to sell more copy's by using a system that was more successful.

You guys are more creative then that! You can easily make a game that uses new invitations, new themes/ideologys and caters to a larger audience without ruining the old themes/ideologys that Deus Ex stands for. How can you included Auto-Heal without ruining the theme that Deus Ex is a realistic shooter? Simple, make it realistic.

The majority of fans (weather they know it or not) are not asking for you guys to make the same game as Deus Ex that game was already made. What we are asking is that you make a game the keeps the themes/ideologys of Deus Ex.

For example:

Deus Ex is as realistic as it can be for a video game.

Deus Ex is a game that takes place in the future but hold familiarity of the present.

Deus Ex explores themes of what it is to be human and what is not human?

Deus Ex explores what trust is and what it is not, who you can trust and who you can not. (Also family in the same context, but that is an optional theme)

Deus Ex asks the player the question and dose not subject the player to the creators answer. Instead allows the player to explore that question and come up with there own conclusions. (I feel Invisible War failed this one big time, there was no option to save JC from his own madness)

Deus Ex empowers the player with technology that is scientifically possible but not proven.

Deus Ex dose not allow players to join MJ12. (I have no idea what this means.)

So long as EM knows the themes/ideologys of Deus Ex and dose not drop them nor add themes/ideologys that contradict them EM can cater to as many people as they like I will consider it a true sequel. Also my opinion of EM will increase/change from company that is trying to sell me something to company that is trying to make something they like and are hoping I will pay them so they can keep doing what they love to do. Like EA vs. Bioware. (Back before EA bought Bioware for the same resin.)

imported_van_HellSing
21st Oct 2008, 08:31
Deus Ex is as realistic as it can be for a video game.
No.


Deus Ex is a game that takes place in the future but hold familiarity of the present.
Yes.


Deus Ex explores themes of what it is to be human and what is not human?
DX3 does also.


Deus Ex explores what trust is and what it is not, who you can trust and who you can not.
DX3 does also.


Deus Ex asks the player the question and dose not subject the player to the creators answer. Instead allows the player to explore that question and come up with there own conclusions. (I feel Invisible War failed this one big time, there was no option to save JC from his own madness)

Deus Ex dose not allow players to join MJ12. (I have no idea what this means.)
These two points, especially coupled, are so nonsensical they made me laugh.


Deus Ex empowers the player with technology that is scientifically possible but not proven.
Is this supposed to be some kind of allusion towards DX3's tentacle aug or something? Meh.

StalinsGhost
21st Oct 2008, 09:06
Interesting. Nearly a whole page of posts totally unrelated to the topic at hand.

gamer0004
21st Oct 2008, 09:26
True, but I think "an offense to DX" is a big exaggeration! Remember the posts (http://kotaku.com/5059182/more-deus-ex-3-details-emerge): "the dev has even drafted in the consultative talents of original writer Sheldon Pacotti, while also gaining the blessing of both Harvey Smith and Warren Spector on the project".

Whether or not you liked IW, one has to admit that our team is doing their Deus Ex homework.

I know that. But that in itself doesn't mean much (IW).
Either way, I think there will be nothing wrong with the story line in itself, but the "DX"3 universe will conflict with DX. I wouldn't consider the augs (not the idea of augmentations, but what kind of augs) part of the storyline, but they are (a big) part of the DX universe/realm/world/whatever you want to call it. And I don't think Sheldon will influence that, or the renaissance style, because they are not a part of the storyline but are seen as gameplay choices, which is not entirerly true. They heavily incluence the "DX"3 state of the world. A storyline can be made up, but the universe in which it takes place, if set in our world, cannot go beyond the limits of science or beyond the limits of previous episodes, if it wants to retain its credibility. And "DX"3 has done both while they could easily have come up with a style that does not conflict with science and DX. However, they apparently do not think DX is worthy (enough) to pay (any) attention to it and think they can come up with something much better, and therefore, for me, it is an offence to DX.

Jerion
21st Oct 2008, 10:18
:scratch:

I'm not certain I see where you're coming from. Are you irritated that the Augs are of a different nature than the first game? It is set at a different time period than the first game, roughly 30 years earlier. So obviously the technology for Augs would not be the same. While in DX 1 nanotech augmentation was about to be rolled out worldwide; they had been tested and refined by various private corporations and organizations for some time (the bartender at the Underworld Tavern is a prime example). It would be conceivable that 30 years previous, Mech augmentation would be still be in the testing or pre-worldwide-release phase as well.

ZylonBane
21st Oct 2008, 12:23
Interesting. Nearly a whole page of posts totally unrelated to the topic at hand.
Hi, welcome to the internet. You must be new here.

rynn taylor
21st Oct 2008, 12:35
Hi, welcome to the internet. You must be new here.

:lol:

StalinsGhost
21st Oct 2008, 16:54
What can I say? I was just hoping that fans of an intelligent game would prove, you know, a little intelligent. I really should stick with my usual lack of faith in humanity.

Larington
21st Oct 2008, 17:02
Ahh crap and this thread was doing so well.

No wonder the somethingawful forums employ a locked goldmined thread system.

Bluey71
21st Oct 2008, 21:40
In my own mind I tend to think of developers as artists, and not as business people, and at the moment I think EM is somewhat caught between a rock and a hard place - trying to satisfy two parties at the same time. Hardcore fans and the people who are asking for DX3 to be more accessable to new players.

I cant think of any other way of doing this, other than to give the players as many options as possible at game startup, or instead use the difficulty settings to span the wide gap between easy and realistic. I admit I dont appreciate what that means in terms of development, but its the only way through I can think of. The alternitive I think is to go with one way or the other.

Imagine being a fan of DX1 and being on the dev team for DX3. Yup, I reckon thats a tall order.

ZylonBane
21st Oct 2008, 22:25
In my own mind I tend to think of developers as artists, and not as business people, and at the moment I think EM is somewhat caught between a rock and a hard place - trying to satisfy two parties at the same time. Hardcore fans and the people who are asking for DX3 to be more accessable to new players.
The irony here is that the RPG system in even the original Deus Ex was hardly more complicated than, say, Final Fantasy. I have a hard time imagining publishers turning their nose up at that kind of money.

Perhaps developers are naturally drawn toward the "action" side of action-RPGs, since successful action games are a hell of a lot easier to design than successful RPGs. With action games, the design challenges are almost all technical, whereas with RPGs, the whole thing falls apart if you don't have an engaging story and characters.

CarloGervasi
21st Oct 2008, 23:03
What can I say? I was just hoping that fans of an intelligent game would prove, you know, a little intelligent. I really should stick with my usual lack of faith in humanity.

Don't click through any more threads here unless you want to know what a crushing wave of disappointment feels like.

CarloGervasi
21st Oct 2008, 23:08
I don't think that has to do with RPGs being more difficult to design, I think it just has to do with what kind of people you have on your team. If you have a bunch of action guys on your team, you aren't going to get an in-depth RPG, it just won't happen. They associate action aspects with a "good game", and slower RPG aspects with a "boring game". Combine that with the hubris of "I'm sure we can do better", which leads to things getting changed for no discernible reason that holds up to outside logic, and mindless trend whoring, which leads to things being included simply because they were in other games, under the guise of evolving design principles, and you get the majority of failed RPG sequels in the world.

gamer0004
22nd Oct 2008, 06:06
:scratch:

I'm not certain I see where you're coming from. Are you irritated that the Augs are of a different nature than the first game? It is set at a different time period than the first game, roughly 30 years earlier. So obviously the technology for Augs would not be the same. While in DX 1 nanotech augmentation was about to be rolled out worldwide; they had been tested and refined by various private corporations and organizations for some time (the bartender at the Underworld Tavern is a prime example). It would be conceivable that 30 years previous, Mech augmentation would be still be in the testing or pre-worldwide-release phase as well.

The renaissance style conflicts with DX, because
A. There were absolutely no traces of it left in DX, which is (almost) always true when there has been such shift in fashion/syle.
B. Renaissance was never mantioned in DX, while I'm quite sure it would have been if it would have existed according to DX.

The augs conflict with DX, because
A. In DX most augs were realistic and most weapons were too. In "DX"3 the augs being unrealistic hits you in the face like an oncoming train.
B. They are far more "advanced" than the onces in DX, even far more than nano-augs. That conflicts with DX as well. Though some people say there was less money available in 2052 this does not apply to the ones we saw in DX. The "government" (Bob Page) had enough money for a billion dollar project Paul and JC, while in fact the mech augs still worked fine. UNATCO had more than enough money, and Gunther and Anna would surely have had the best augs available at that time.
Even if there had been less money for mech augs (and, as I just said, there wasn't) than they still would've had acces to all the "DX"3 stuff, because the augs themselves won't be so expensive. Developing them would be, but the technology was already available. But it wouldn't be. Because it is scientifically impossible.
And I haven't even mentioned the triple-barreled pistol or the minigun attached to the arm of Barret which don't make any sense.

The point it that these were not necesarry design choices. They could've made a game that is true to DX (so without breaking the continuity, or having all this crap ingame) and still being "cool" and attracting a lot of people.
BUT, they decided they were way more talanted than the makers of DX and thought they could come up with something that is way more immersive and intresting and cool than DX. Which I think is very offensive.

Dead-Eye
23rd Oct 2008, 03:15
Deus Ex is as realistic as it can be for a video game.
No.


OK your right, Deus Ex TRIES to be as realistic as it can be for a video game. :rasp:

There are a lot of things Deus Ex tries to do to make it more realistic. I'll just list examples:

*One head shot kills a normal person and on realistic you die if you get hit in the head once. Keep in mind you are a nano-augmented super agent from the year 2052, so sometimes you can take one shot to the head... but not even god can take two.

*People have a tendency to act differently towards people carrying a gun in there hands.

*New York, Hong Kong, Praise, and Area 51 are in fact real places.

*People do tend to react when you hack into there computer... but video game company's also have budgets.

*Conspiracy's may sound outrages to a person who takes things for granted but you must realize that no one person has all the answers and most of the things people say are just ideas that someone else said to them a long time ago. These memes are past on from generation to generation and after some time people stop asking why they are true. The memes of the Father or Mother or Religion ,etc. These intern make up who you are with little creative effort on your part and without you really ever questioning them. In the end who are you but a collection of memes? Do you even really know what a foot is? 12 inches, right. Now imagine living in a world where everyone learned the metric system and never learned the imperial system. No one knows what a foot is expect for you and when you try to tell people about feet as an exact measurement everyone would think your crazy. Why? Because if it is not fact in the minds of people, if the meme dies, it doesn't really exist. Simply what you call knowledge is a mutual agreement that exist inside the collective minds of everyday people like you and me. And most people take them for granted without always questioning them. So don't take anything for granted...ever.

WhatsHisFace
23rd Oct 2008, 03:46
I don't think that has to do with RPGs being more difficult to design, I think it just has to do with what kind of people you have on your team. If you have a bunch of action guys on your team, you aren't going to get an in-depth RPG, it just won't happen. They associate action aspects with a "good game", and slower RPG aspects with a "boring game". Combine that with the hubris of "I'm sure we can do better", which leads to things getting changed for no discernible reason that holds up to outside logic, and mindless trend whoring, which leads to things being included simply because they were in other games, under the guise of evolving design principles, and you get the majority of failed RPG sequels in the world.

One of the top guys on the team worked on the Farcry console projects, Rainbow Six Vegas and a racing game, which explains why this game has become "Call of Duty: Deus Ex Edition"

Although it's possible he may feel that Call of Duty is also "too slow"... so maybe we can hope for a Serious Sam clone where wave after wave of giant mechs stomp around firing hilariously over-sized bullets at you.

btiv4
24th Aug 2009, 01:07
Personally, I would like NOT to see regeneration of any sort in this game. I'd like it if you had to replace biology with machinery every time you got injured. There would be advantages to tissues just like there would be for machinery. You wouldn't be allowed to go backwards.

Kataki
24th Aug 2009, 04:53
If only the Deus Ex 3 devs would read this :[

Jerion
24th Aug 2009, 13:33
Is there a reason why a thread nearly a year old was resurrected?

jd10013
24th Aug 2009, 13:43
Is there a reason why a thread nearly a year old was resurrected?
too much free time?

Jerion
24th Aug 2009, 13:48
I'm actually wondering why somebody dug through that many pages of threads.

jd10013
24th Aug 2009, 14:03
I'm actually wondering why somebody dug through that many pages of threads.

look at his post count, and that "newbie" under his name ;)

dark_angel_7
24th Aug 2009, 14:21
I didn't see this thread before but now it's here I can say that I agree. I am not for the idea of Regen. health and hopefully it wont be air= health. If anything they should drop the health system and stick to the DX1 health system but if not then I say go for the TRU style Regen./ health as that was okay.

Spyhopping
24th Aug 2009, 14:37
Perhaps just surfaced from use of the search function. Hey look, it's whatshisface, all abandonwared

spm1138
24th Aug 2009, 14:57
Interesting.

You could tie it into gameplay in other ways too... like the more you can heal the less stealthy you are or the more you can heal the more cyborged you are and that has an effect on how people interact with you etc.

thomasaquinas
25th Aug 2009, 06:24
Hey look, it's whatshisface, all abandonwaredAmongst others...

Also, if he had created a new thread to comment about Health Regen, we all know it would have been instantly merged with this one anyway, so...

El_Bel
25th Aug 2009, 11:40
Is there a reason why a thread nearly a year old was resurrected?

Anything new to talk about yet?


....


I didnt think so.