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Dead-Eye
10th Oct 2008, 00:57
Deus Ex has never been one for a love story. (Excluding Warren's Spider Bot love thing) The game maintains a vary nonchalant attitude on the subject. It almost feels like JC Denton is completely not interested in sex. This was done I believe because there was a desire to maintain a neutral starting place for the player. However it always seemed a little funny to me that there was never a love story in any of the Deus Ex games. Not because it seemed like Deus Ex should have one, the game was great without one. But because Deus Ex touches on so many subjects that have a vary real aspect in people's lives. To a degree Deus Ex did touch on a love story, a different type of love story, that is to say the relation ship that Paul and JC had did allow Deus Ex to touch on love but only in the fashion that one brother feels for another brother. As such it might not be out of place for Deus Ex 3 to try love again. This I understand would be a risk and could be a complete disaster especially for girl gamers (because the player character is most likely going to be male.) however if done right it might become something that works with Deus Ex. Personally I would never won't to see JC get in a relationship but JC is not in this game.

Maybe if it was done the same way that Deus Ex introduced you to Paul in that from the vary start the player would already be in a relationship with a character and as such it would be logical that Jensen and his girl friend might be at the end of there relationship or at the start of a much deeper relationship. This character would make appearance in the game and as such at some point in the game the player would be forced to make a decision on weather the relationship is worth saving or if it's time to call it quits. Kind of like the choice to go out the window and let Paul die or stay and fight. It could even be done on the level where Adam's girlfriend is taken capture by the enemy and Adam can ether not save her, save her and keep the relationship or save her and dump her.

This is all food for thought and probably can't be included in the game at this point and might even be a horrible idea in the first place. But I would like to hear what you think.

Edit: Although thinking about it now there needs to be characters the player will find interesting or can connect with like Joke and Paul in the first one.

jordan_a
10th Oct 2008, 01:20
There is a beginning of a love story in IW: "I would love to be your chamber boy". Besides, we don't know if Alex goes back to the Emerald Suites after the end of the game. :D

Seriously. Why putting love everywere? It's often (always?) cheesy.

Romeo
10th Oct 2008, 01:24
Um... I hate you Jordan. lol

I LOVE LOVESTORIES! With characters as emotionally detatched as JC and Alex, who were bred to be perfect agents, a desire to be with someone simply doesn't suit them. I do, however, think there may be hope with our new protagonist, seeing as how he's supposedly an "average Joe", and therefore would be more inclined towards romance.

jordan_a
10th Oct 2008, 01:27
As long as it's not something like...

-"But you know I love youuuu" :(
-"I know, but I have to do this mission" :cool:

That should work.

Dead-Eye
10th Oct 2008, 01:37
Seriously. Why putting love everywere? It's often (always?) cheesy.

Yeah that's a big problem and Deus Ex is anything but cheesy.

Another thing that worry's me is that the love interest would be this helpless girl that needs you to "save" her. And that seems way out of place for Deus Ex. "I'm used to being on my own." rings a bell.

Then again it might work better if the love Interest was again more like Paul Denton in that Paul Denton was just as bad-ass as the player if not more so. What would make it really interesting is if the love interest was working for MJ12 (or whoever the "bad guys" are). Then the player might have to kill the love interest, or try and convince her not to kill him. That sounds a lot more like Deus Ex to me.

jordan_a
10th Oct 2008, 01:40
Yes, to my mind relations are always mixed with mutual interests and conflicts so far in DX.

True love would be too pure but hey... is it not the Renaissance? ;)

Romeo
10th Oct 2008, 01:45
As long as it's not something like...

-"But you know I love youuuu" :(
-"I know, but I have to do this mission" :cool:

That should work.
That's not a love-story, that's story-cide. lol

Yeah that's a big problem and Deus Ex is anything but cheesy.

Another thing that worry's me is that the love interest would be this helpless girl that needs you to "save" her. And that seems way out of place for Deus Ex. "I'm used to being on my own." rings a bell.

Then again it might work better if the love Interest was again more like Paul Denton in that Paul Denton was just as bad-ass as the player if not more so. What would make it really interesting is if the love interest was working for MJ12 (or whoever the "bad guys" are). Then the player might have to kill the love interest, or try and convince her not to kill him. That sounds a lot more like Deus Ex to me.
Personally I considered Deus Ex to be a bit cheesy with regards to characters. But on track, I like your idea, that would be pretty cool, or another situation that could work is a black-market dealer (who is a lady-lady) takes a liking to you, and helps you out from time to time, which eventually forms an alliance, then a friendship, then a very-close connection.

imported_van_HellSing
10th Oct 2008, 06:51
I don't know about love, but there seriously needs to be a seductive femme fatale in there somewhere.

DXeXodus
10th Oct 2008, 07:30
^^ I agree. But this is not Tomb Raider. She must be intelligent and have an intriguing personality and set of quirks. She must also dress for the occasion. No skin tight pants and boob tubes are used in gunfights. :)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
10th Oct 2008, 07:38
^^ I agree. But this is not Tomb Raider. She must be intelligent and have an intriguing personality and set of quirks. She must also dress for the occasion. No skin tight pants and boob tubes are used in gunfights. :)

WTF!?! Are you implying that Lara isn't intelligent and intriguing? :mad:
Kidding... :p

I agree with van_HellSing though, there could be a femme-fatale of some sort in DX3. :cool:
Not necessarily a love subject though... ;)

DXeXodus
10th Oct 2008, 07:53
Lol. Maybe Lara wasn't the best example :)
But you know what I mean. I want a female character that fits the game and does not dress nonsensically.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
10th Oct 2008, 07:55
Lol. Maybe Lara wasn't the best example :)
But you know what I mean. I want a female character that fits the game and does not dress nonsensically.

Yes, I totally agree. :)

Clucky
10th Oct 2008, 08:15
I think the final plot twist should be that Adam and Barret are in fact gay lovers. :D

jordan_a
10th Oct 2008, 09:47
There's already some gay stuff in IW!

New! Love (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=80933) (got to).

Mindmute
10th Oct 2008, 16:36
^^ I agree. But this is not Tomb Raider. She must be intelligent and have an intriguing personality and set of quirks. She must also dress for the occasion. No skin tight pants and boob tubes are used in gunfights. :)

Boob cannon augmentations?



Ahem, in most things the Denton brothers actually seemed to lack some base emotions, when we did see them expressing things like fear or amusement they were always very neutral about it.
Didn't Jamie actually say in the tutorial that JC and Paul don't know how to smile?

FrankCSIS
11th Oct 2008, 03:49
A proper friendship notion could at least be introduced in the game. I think the only game I ever played that offered this feeling was Grim Fandango, with the strange but lovable relationship between Manny and Glottis.

Come to think of it, it also had a very decent and non-cheesy love story between Manny and Meche.

"Manuel. Are you...in love with her?"

"Love? Love is for the living, Sal"

Dead-Eye
11th Oct 2008, 16:29
A proper friendship notion could at least be introduced in the game. I think the only game I ever played that offered this feeling was Grim Fandango, with the strange but lovable relationship between Manny and Glottis.

Come to think of it, it also had a very decent and non-cheesy love story between Manny and Meche.

"Manuel. Are you...in love with her?"

"Love? Love is for the living, Sal"

That whole game was a love story.

R.M.
11th Oct 2008, 20:33
Hey, the idea of a femme fatale is quite interesting. And it would intrigue some female players as well. At least that's the case with me ;)


PS: Hope, my English isn't too bad...

Kaze103
11th Oct 2008, 21:09
especially for girl gamers (because the player character is most likely going to be male.)

I haven't much to say on the rest of the post that hasn't already been said, but I do know a little thing about the 'female gaze'. (say that to yourself without smirking)

Anyway, the main point of the female gaze was that it isn't just males that relate to the hero, females do to. Females in the eye of the media are the same as the males, so when there is a male hero they will still relate, even when there is a love story between that male and a female.

So my point overall in today's media world is that this has no effect on a love story. We, as Alex, can go and chat up girls (and maybe guys?), and research shows that females would still do this whilst being in the role of the male.

This has nothing to do with all those guys that go on MMORPG's posing as females btw, that's still rather strange.

AaronJ
11th Oct 2008, 21:51
Because of how many ways this can be screwed up, I suggest this topic be buried so the devs never ever see it.

pewbeng
12th Oct 2008, 00:35
Just an idea, if EM wants to start DX3 with a big bang.


He could already have a girlfriend who dies in the beginning, while, I don't know, picking AJ up from work during the raid and us loving, male protective types (you know who you are!) have to fight the hunger for revenge in order to complete the objectives the game throws in our faces. (However that would work.)

What can I say. I'm a sucker for revenge. And somehow I can better relate to motivation through loss of a loved one than the unfolding of a conspiracy. Just as a kickstart. To suck you in at the beginning.

If AJ is "just some guy" and not some highly augmented assassination cyborg, I think it could make sense (on an emotional/motivational level).



--

But in general... I kind of want to play a character that's "alone". That would just deliver part of what I define as "the DX atmosphere".

AaronJ
12th Oct 2008, 14:45
Just an idea, if EM wants to start DX3 with a big bang.


He could already have a girlfriend who dies in the beginning, while, I don't know, picking AJ up from work during the raid and us loving, male protective types (you know who you are!) have to fight the hunger for revenge in order to complete the objectives the game throws in our faces. (However that would work.)

Sweet Evil Jesus. You have just created 100% pure cliché.

Bungie will be proud.

Lazarus Ledd
12th Oct 2008, 15:12
I'll just c/p and quote a sentence from one of the guy at OTF forum :D


I have to say, now I have this vision of Mr. Jensen, with a terrible french accent walking around saying "'allo lovely ladies! Would you like to come back to ma 'ouse and see what else I 'ave 'ad augm ...

pewbeng
12th Oct 2008, 16:54
Sweet Evil Jesus. You have just created 100% pure cliché.

Bungie will be proud.

Don't burn me.
Of course it's a cliché. My point's just,
IMO it's tough to motivate people to "roleplay" a character. Finding something people can relate to. By god, I don't want to see that idea implemented that way. Just wanted to fill the frame with a picture everybody knows.

Dead-Eye
12th Oct 2008, 19:27
Just an idea, if EM wants to start DX3 with a big bang.


He could already have a girlfriend who dies in the beginning, while, I don't know, picking AJ up from work during the raid and us loving, male protective types (you know who you are!) have to fight the hunger for revenge in order to complete the objectives the game throws in our faces. (However that would work.)

What can I say. I'm a sucker for revenge. And somehow I can better relate to motivation through loss of a loved one than the unfolding of a conspiracy. Just as a kickstart. To suck you in at the beginning.

If AJ is "just some guy" and not some highly augmented assassination cyborg, I think it could make sense (on an emotional/motivational level).



--

But in general... I kind of want to play a character that's "alone". That would just deliver part of what I define as "the DX atmosphere".

It wouldn't work well that way. Because the player needs time to get to know the character. I felt like the first time I played Deus Ex and Paul died I was doing everything to avenge his death. But if he had died on the docks of Liberty island I wouldn't care.

If the girl was introduced to the player. That player would need equal or more time to get to know AJ's GF. Then later at some point in the game the player would be forced to choice weather he will save her or let her die. (Hopefully in a more original way then jumping out a window.)

To build on your idea the way I would implement this is I would have AJ's GF be working for "The bad guys" from the vary start. As we play the game we uncover more and more in stage 1 about who screwed us. (The Start of Deus Ex to the point where JC heads for Hong Kong was Stage 1 in my mind.) As the game goes on not only do we find out that it was MJ12 (Or other bad guy fraction) but that it was AJ's GF that stole AJ's data from the start. When AJ encounters his GF he finds her already prepared to fight him. Dependent on how the player related to her determines partly what options the player has. For example if AJ was nothing but nice to her she could be convinced to leave MJ12. If not she could state that although she loves him she really docent have a choice because her kill switch would be flipped if she docent kill AJ. Finally AJ could just say you B*tch let's fight.

This would give the player more time to find out if they like or don't like AJ's GF.

Mecranth
12th Oct 2008, 19:30
I am quite skeptical regarding any love stories involved in any games. I would only want one in Deus Ex 3 if it is done well, but that is a mighty difficult thing to accomplish these days, particularly in games.

Voltaire
12th Oct 2008, 20:59
Here it is again: Voltaire's theory of why DX1 was great, as applied to love storylines.

If we want a game where player choice is king (like in DX1), then a love story can't happen, because that would mean sticking a generic love interest in there. If the character in the game is meant to reflect that of the player, the devs can't make assumptions as to what we find attractive.

daa-daa!

FrankCSIS
12th Oct 2008, 21:52
I see where that's coming from Voltaire, especially if the love story is too big a focus. It would get quite annoying to those who just don't give a damn.

You know what might work though? I've yet to see it in a game but of course I haven't played everything. How about an ex? She may or may not be related to the story at all but would add a certain depth to the character and story. She could pop up at the beginning or be further involved, and it wouldn't really affect our relationship and experience with the main character. Those who like the girl would wonder why they split and those who dislike/don't care would identify to the breakup. How you react to her might be an interaction factor as to whether they try to get back together or whatever, although that's pushing it.

Just trying to bring up something original that could bring some comic relief or serious drama depending on the angle you approach it.

Dead-Eye
13th Oct 2008, 01:22
Here it is again: Voltaire's theory of why DX1 was great, as applied to love storylines.


Deus Ex was so great it brought Voltaire back from the grave to tell us why Deus Ex was the greatest game ever.



You know what might work though? I've yet to see it in a game but of course I haven't played everything. How about an ex? She may or may not be related to the story at all but would add a certain depth to the character and story. She could pop up at the beginning or be further involved, and it wouldn't really affect our relationship and experience with the main character. Those who like the girl would wonder why they split and those who dislike/don't care would identify to the breakup. How you react to her might be an interaction factor as to whether they try to get back together or whatever, although that's pushing it.


Yes or you could start it out after being 3 year into the relationship, the people who don't care will dump her and it wouldn't seem unreasonable the others who like her will stay with her if they can.

Xtremist022
13th Oct 2008, 01:27
There is a beginning of a love story in IW: "I would love to be your chamber boy". Besides, we don't know if Alex goes back to the Emerald Suites after the end of the game. :D

Seriously. Why putting love everywere? It's often (always?) cheesy.

Haha!! But seriously, anything from IW does not count.

Overtime
13th Oct 2008, 10:27
There was no love story in DX1 because there was no time for it. The end of the world was near and who knows, the grey death might be an std!!!!

badwolf
13th Oct 2008, 10:39
Hmmm but JC did buy that Aussie girl in the lucky money alot of drinks for a little dance, but maybe that was me who can say lol

Romeo
14th Oct 2008, 06:08
The Darkness was driven by that Cliche, but it worked so, so beautifully (especially the end) and yes, Deus Ex is about choice. Which is why you should have a choice with regards to love (Care/Don't care, with whom, loyal/fratboy-at-springbreak). That would work well for me.

TrickyVein
18th Oct 2008, 16:29
There was no love story in DX1 because there was no time for it. The end of the world was near and who knows, the grey death might be an std!!!!

I always thought that Sarah Renton was a love interest for JC. He seemed to genuinely care about her - you save her from death at the hands of a pimp, clean out her father's hotel of bad influences, meet her one last time on the west coast...I think there was a spark there, if only briefly.

Tracer Tong
18th Oct 2008, 16:41
Boob cannon augmentations?


Austin Powers, anyone? :lol:

Dead-Eye
18th Oct 2008, 18:02
I always thought that Sarah Renton was a love interest for JC. He seemed to genuinely care about her - you save her from death at the hands of a pimp, clean out her father's hotel of bad influences, meet her one last time on the west coast...I think there was a spark there, if only briefly.

Or meet her when she's about to date that guy in the bar.

ewanlaing
18th Oct 2008, 19:58
The Deus Ex storyline has always been concerned with things far more important than love. The player character simply would not have the time to concentrate on this

imported_van_HellSing
18th Oct 2008, 20:17
Or meat her

No comment.

serene_chaos
19th Oct 2008, 01:33
Then again it might work better if the love Interest was again more like Paul Denton in that Paul Denton was just as bad-ass as the player if not more so. What would make it really interesting is if the love interest was working for MJ12 (or whoever the "bad guys" are). Then the player might have to kill the love interest, or try and convince her not to kill him. That sounds a lot more like Deus Ex to me.

The female love interest could be your boss or superior. That way she certainly wouldn't be helpless, and could be bad-ass without being physically imposing.

TrickyVein
19th Oct 2008, 02:07
Why not make it a Romeo and Juliet-esque love between two opposing houses, or biotech firms? It would fit perfectly with the retro-Renaissance theme they've got going. All of your buddies would be there like Mercutio, and that dude with the bull belt buckle could be Tybalt!

Enough of the world's troubles and all of this conspiracy BS - LOVE is the answer

Dead-Eye
19th Oct 2008, 17:33
No comment.

LOL, meat her. :lol:

Laokin
20th Oct 2008, 03:21
Just an idea, if EM wants to start DX3 with a big bang.


He could already have a girlfriend who dies in the beginning, while, I don't know, picking AJ up from work during the raid and us loving, male protective types (you know who you are!) have to fight the hunger for revenge in order to complete the objectives the game throws in our faces. (However that would work.)

What can I say. I'm a sucker for revenge. And somehow I can better relate to motivation through loss of a loved one than the unfolding of a conspiracy. Just as a kickstart. To suck you in at the beginning.

If AJ is "just some guy" and not some highly augmented assassination cyborg, I think it could make sense (on an emotional/motivational level).



--

But in general... I kind of want to play a character that's "alone". That would just deliver part of what I define as "the DX atmosphere".


This sounds like Max Payne.... His wife dies, and on his hunt for revenge -- stumbles into a conspiracy buried very deep with the government. Could work for DX... as a kick start as you say.

Absentia
20th Oct 2008, 15:11
A relationship (not necessarily "love" though) was very briefly touched upon in IW I felt. When Billie Adams was introduced, I was really looking forward to how the interraction between you and her would pan out, and the kind of influence she'd have on the player (seeing as she joined The Order and wanted you to do the same) - I thought the love element might be there, but she seemed to just completely fade into the background through the rest of the game. The IDEA was there, the delivery was just substandard (as can be said about pretty much all of IW)
Alex and her are supposed to be best friends, yet all I ever got from her was just moaning about how she knows so much more than I do and how The Order are so damn amazing, she didn't give a crud about me. In the end you're pitted against her, but even then, while the life of her or the life of her best friend in all the world hangs in the balance, she still acts like a btch.
For the record, I knocked her out with stun darts/nades, cause I''m a nice guy.

gamer0004
20th Oct 2008, 18:06
A relationship (not necessarily "love" though) was very briefly touched upon in IW I felt. When Billie Adams was introduced, I was really looking forward to how the interraction between you and her would pan out, and the kind of influence she'd have on the player (seeing as she joined The Order and wanted you to do the same) - I thought the love element might be there, but she seemed to just completely fade into the background through the rest of the game. The IDEA was there, the delivery was just substandard (as can be said about pretty much all of IW)
Alex and her are supposed to be best friends, yet all I ever got from her was just moaning about how she knows so much more than I do and how The Order are so damn amazing, she didn't give a crud about me. In the end you're pitted against her, but even then, while the life of her or the life of her best friend in all the world hangs in the balance, she still acts like a btch.
For the record, I knocked her out with stun darts/nades, cause I''m a nice guy.

How I hated being supposed to be friends with her... From the very very first moment I saw her she disgusted me. That hair, that look, her moaning, her thinking she was smart... Leo and what's-her-name were much better.
Typically for IW. In DX you simply could've said "I will find [the elevator code] on my own", but that was not possible in IW. You could only say "Gosh, Billy, you are so cool for giving me that elevator code which everyone in this building is supposed to know. You're such a good friend." (or whatever it was).

TrickyVein
20th Oct 2008, 18:35
Not that I have anything against same sex relationships, but I always thought Alex looked better as that dark haired chick - Billie wasn't my friend, she was my enemy - I had the hots for Leo. ;)

foxberg
20th Oct 2008, 19:33
Yeah, let's add some banging to the game! Man, that's exactly what this game needs the most! And add some voice over on top of it so all those prepubescent teenagers could stand behind the close door and eavesdrop with their mouth open and saliva dripping down the tongue. That would really make it for a unique gaming experience.

DXeXodus
21st Oct 2008, 04:13
Additionally, sexual discussions are not acceptable in our community.
http://forums.eidosgames.com/announcement.php?f=252&a=29

A friendly warning before this goes further.

Skulgun
21st Oct 2008, 04:48
Hmmm but JC did buy that Aussie girl in the lucky money alot of drinks for a little dance, but maybe that was me who can say lol

Or how about his smooth talking when he let them into the club in the first place:

Mercedes: "Sure you don't have forty credits so we can get in?"

JC: "Suuure"

;)

TrickyVein
22nd Oct 2008, 19:11
^^ some of the best conversation ever.

almost as good as max chen's "Whaaaaaaaaaaa???" in his office.
or that french kid's "who are you?" in the catacombs.
but not as good as JC's "a BOMB?!?!?!"

but back to loving -

what about that unatco trooper what's his name and Shannon? The player got to see their relationship blossom across your multiple returns to UNATCO.

foxberg
22nd Oct 2008, 19:47
I just thought of a better one: how about auto-heal system activated by banging, sorry, falling in love with, some NPC? This way the game will feature lots of love, for sure.

badwolf
23rd Oct 2008, 07:40
Or how about his smooth talking when he let them into the club in the first place:

Mercedes: "Sure you don't have forty credits so we can get in?"

JC: "Suuure"

;)

Lol, and if I remember correctly the door girl was a little fresh also, I cant remember the quotes entirely but one was something like, "I see you there, in the corner, everyone will wonder who you are".

She had a great voice, she would have been my JC's love interest if he was to have one in that game.:D

DXeXodus
23rd Oct 2008, 07:51
She also says something about growling at the other woman like a dog I think. Can't remember exactly either. Sure someone will post the exact quotes.

El_Bel
23rd Oct 2008, 10:31
Perfect. I order you to stand in the spotlight and growl at the women like a dog
who needs a master.
I see you in a corner, smoldering, hostile. Everyone will wonder who you are.
Go call a Russian sailor a nasty name. I want to see you fight.
I like a man with a lot of zippers.

I like her too...

DXeXodus
23rd Oct 2008, 10:34
That's it. I knew it had to do with animal sounds. Thanks :thumbsup:
Yeah, she was cool. But she also had a scary bouncer with a GEP gun behind her.

binaryboy
23rd Oct 2008, 20:52
JC had a brief--very brief--relationship in the Hong Kong club with a woman who kept saying, "What is your job?"

imported_van_HellSing
23rd Oct 2008, 21:00
she also had a scary bouncer with a GEP gun behind her.

Which was hilarious by the way. Imagine a bouncer using a rocket launcher in a crowded club IRL.

DXeXodus
24th Oct 2008, 04:05
It also struck me as fairly strange :scratch:

badwolf
24th Oct 2008, 07:54
Perfect. I order you to stand in the spotlight and growl at the women like a dog
who needs a master.
I see you in a corner, smoldering, hostile. Everyone will wonder who you are.
Go call a Russian sailor a nasty name. I want to see you fight.
I like a man with a lot of zippers.

I like her too...

Her voice was incredibly sexy.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
24th Oct 2008, 20:59
LOL @ the direction this thread is going. :D

By the way, anyone think the Omar voice was sexy? :o












Don't worry, I jest... :lmao:

Mindmute
24th Oct 2008, 21:18
It wasn't really a relationship or love story, but I'm curious about something...
After the shootout at the club I was constantly followed by one of those "companion" girls, who kept repeating "One customer twice. Not allowed.", anyone else got that?..

Flobulon
24th Oct 2008, 22:24
It wasn't really a relationship or love story, but I'm curious about something...
After the shootout at the club I was constantly followed by one of those "companion" girls, who kept repeating "One customer twice. Not allowed.", anyone else got that?..

Yeah, that happened to me too, even though I hadn't "bought" her in the first place. I just killed her, took care of that annoyance. :D

Dead-Eye
25th Oct 2008, 01:27
Maybe you could have like 50 love interests in the game, like Vampire: Bloodlines. After all it's dark and Adam is wearing shades.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
25th Oct 2008, 21:22
Slightly off-topic.... maybe???? ;) :p

The playable demo of Tomb Raider: Underworld will be available for download next Tuesday. The demo will cover a portion of the beautiful Thailand level.

Officer Half
26th Oct 2008, 00:31
Just reading the first post gave me this idea. Here goes.

You start the game all Half-Life-esque. It seems like a normal day at work, nothing strange going on. Just doing your security guarding. Somewhere in here it introduces your girlfriend. Then BAM something crazy happens. (Kinda like in DX2, but maybe a little more exciting and less predictable...) You get all augmentified. You eventually go home to your girlfriend. She rejects you. Who wants to go out with a robot? Then, our hero loses faith in relationships, and the option never enters the game.

Tada. Kinda depressing, but no one said DX3 was going to be a happy game. :rasp:

dr_niz
9th Nov 2008, 20:22
I say avoid a love story like the Grey Death itself. DX touches on issues larger than the sum of any one person. The stories externally alter the entire world. Internal romantic emotions would only detract from the earth shattering decisions the protagonist must endure.

rockyrr
11th Nov 2008, 12:16
In Hong Kong in the Luckey Money you can buy an escort :)

Romeo
16th Nov 2008, 07:27
I'm sorry, just kinda cutting in here. I don't know if anyone played Gears of War 2, but I thought it had the foundation to a beautiful and tragic lovestory.

*SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER*

In Gears of War 2, a soldiar named Dom is fighting, while looking for his wife who was lost during the start of the war. As the story progresses, he eventually finds her, delusional, and thinks he's saved he from the enemy (which are monstrous things). However his friend calls out his name and Dom snaps back to reality and sees his wife for what she truly is: Little more than a husk. Braindead, malnourished and losing hair, she's barely alive after what the enemy has done to her. He pulls out his pistol, and starts crying and apologizing to her, and a gunshot is heard and his friend walks away. To me, that's a good lovestory. Just my opinion.

jordan_a
17th Nov 2008, 16:47
I don't think love will be a key element in DX3.

Jerion
17th Nov 2008, 16:49
Well if Mr. Inside Info says it...:D

Lady_Of_The_Vine
17th Nov 2008, 16:51
I don't think love will be a key element in DX3.

Sigh of relief from me then, ha! :cool:

jordan_a
17th Nov 2008, 16:51
I'm just cautiously throwing elements. Hush. :cool:

foxberg
24th Nov 2008, 02:37
In Hong Kong in the Luckey Money you can buy an escort :)

And JC DID buy her time. Anyone remembers Ling? When JC goes to Lucky Money to meet heads of Triads for drinks he runs into Ling who says: 'One customer twice... Not allowed!', 'Satisfied? Yes?'. I think at the beginning she says: 'The time is up', or something like that.

Romeo
24th Nov 2008, 04:48
Oh, another game that handled a love-story very well was "The Darkness", you couldn't pick your girlfriend, but she had a profound influence on the story without turning it into the ridiculous "knight-in-shining-armor" nonsense. =)

Igoe
24th Nov 2008, 08:52
DX3 could handle love. it's one of the few games I would trust to pull off a romantic storyline, but nothing central to the plot, I.E. you HAVE a gf at the start of the events of DX3, and depending on your actions she is either caught up and killed by the events that transpire, or is able to live and you occasionally hear from her in emails later on in the game.

Like the Sandra Renton side quest. No where NEAR essential, but it gives you that extra motivation to try to help lest something terrible happen because you chose not to act.

Anyone who has played VTM: Bloodlines knows what I'm talking about. A female accomplice can be a powerful motivation if used appropriately.

spm1138
24th Nov 2008, 09:17
A few games do manage it off well.

A lot of it's down the writing and the voice acting. That's why it seems like a bad idea. Most games fail horribly at that point.

When it works it's generally quite impressive that a videogame made you care about a character.

edit
I mean if the story is exploring what it means to be human blah blah then it could really tie in.

DXeXodus
24th Nov 2008, 09:52
Anyone who has played VTM: Bloodlines knows what I'm talking about. A female accomplice can be a powerful motivation if used appropriately.

I was just going to mention VTMB as a successful example regarding this topic. If there is any love interest it must be purely optional and you should be able to decide how to handle the relationship.

WTO SpecOp #1136
28th Nov 2008, 19:54
I think having a love story can attract certain gamers out there. Sometimes a love story in a game can make the gamer feel attached to a certain character (hopefully not in a creepy way). Soon you start caring for them and watching over them and if they have an unexpected demise then you might want to seek revenge. Its like farcry 2 with the buddy system. Then again I liked the love story in Mass Effect:rolleyes:. And there might be ppl out there that don't believe in such themes on some games.

Torley
28th Nov 2008, 21:37
Was I the only one who crushed on Klara Sparks? ;)

Jima B
29th Nov 2008, 00:35
I dunno if anyone mentioned it, but what about Beth Duclare and Chad Dumier?
From DX:IW, on the last level; they have quite a romantic thing going on :)

Romeo
29th Nov 2008, 06:31
I was just going to mention VTMB as a successful example regarding this topic. If there is any love interest it must be purely optional and you should be able to decide how to handle the relationship.
That's a fairly good game. I still believe Gears of War 2 and especially The Darkness both had better love stories in them, as they were both so tragic. The Darkness, in fact, would be a very, very good starting point to base a love story in Deus Ex 3 off of.

Have Adam Jensen's love die halfway through, making it a love story with a definate dosage of revenge. It would also help entice players into wanting to kill the bad guy. It sure did in The Darkness. This is a spoiler because it happens in the Darkness. lol

Yargo
30th Nov 2008, 23:08
That's a fairly good game. I still believe Gears of War 2 and especially The Darkness both had better love stories in them, as they were both so tragic. The Darkness, in fact, would be a very, very good starting point to base a love story in Deus Ex 3 off of.

Have Adam Jensen's love die halfway through, making it a love story with a definate dosage of revenge. It would also help entice players into wanting to kill the bad guy. It sure did in The Darkness. This is a spoiler because it happens in the Darkness. lol

uhh......
Max Payne? ring some bells?

GmanPro
30th Nov 2008, 23:39
How about Baldur's Gate 2? Right at the beginning of the game they give you several reasons why you might want to go after Irenicus. So even if you are good or bad or neutral, you still have reason to go kill him.

redfordd
1st Dec 2008, 06:45
A relationship (not necessarily "love" though) was very briefly touched upon in IW I felt. When Billie Adams was introduced, I was really looking forward to how the interraction between you and her would pan out, and the kind of influence she'd have on the player (seeing as she joined The Order and wanted you to do the same) - I thought the love element might be there, but she seemed to just completely fade into the background through the rest of the game. The IDEA was there, the delivery was just substandard (as can be said about pretty much all of IW)
Alex and her are supposed to be best friends, yet all I ever got from her was just moaning about how she knows so much more than I do and how The Order are so damn amazing, she didn't give a crud about me. In the end you're pitted against her, but even then, while the life of her or the life of her best friend in all the world hangs in the balance, she still acts like a btch.
For the record, I knocked her out with stun darts/nades, cause I''m a nice guy.

I am no expert in cloning and family naming conventions but since both you and Billie were clones of JC isn't she your sister or you or something like that? I really disliked the Billie character. After you get your weapon in the lockerroom at the Seattle Tarsus Acdemy and are quick when Billie makes her dash into Leila Nassif's enclosed lab through the door you can get in there too. My plan was to take her out of commision right then and there. Problem with this was two fold I found out. One: Billie is invulnerable in there. Two: you cannot get out of the lab or the elevator she runs into once there. So you just end up being trapped in an elevator with someone you cannot stand who cannot be killed and all she does is just look at you.

jordan_a
1st Dec 2008, 06:52
Good point Absentia. I think the Billie Adams character is, yet again, one of IW's big failures.

GmanPro
1st Dec 2008, 08:03
Wow, obviously because I don't even remember that name. I beat that game almost three times too... :whistle:

spm1138
1st Dec 2008, 09:30
All of the characters in IW were pretty stupid.

I hated everybody by the end of the game. Quite glad they made a "kill everyone" ending in fact (although I'd have preferred if it really was a "You're all pompous windbags" option and didn't mean siding with the Omar).

Your classmates especially were all morons.
"Woooh. I'm gonna run off and join me some cults! :cool: "

I know it was supposed to be all about differing ideologies or something, but cheesus.

None of them seemed to have any personality beyond being highly suggestible.

That's what I mean by "It takes good writing".

edit
DX had a love story or two, if you looked carefully. I thought it was kinda cool. That diary entry the WiB has on her PDA in the church about Gunther Herman being in a killing rage because you killed Anna for example. I usually wound up tasing her and felt kind of bad for Gunther.

They could have done more with stuff perhaps though because they mostly chose to flesh out people you were shooting at.

Mindmute
1st Dec 2008, 14:21
How about Baldur's Gate 2? Right at the beginning of the game they give you several reasons why you might want to go after Irenicus. So even if you are good or bad or neutral, you still have reason to go kill him.

Thought about that one too, a rather good example of storytelling applied to gaming right there.
I also liked the ways that you track down Irenicus: there were no good or bad guys, no moral dillema there, just grey. You knew you were being used by both sides but literally had no choice but to go on.

I just honestly wish DX3 avoids the revenge-about-your-dead-love story.
I'd much rather if Adam were indeed in love with someone, but later found her to be on the side of his enemies.
That way, we'd have the whole dillema of joining her and betraying your beliefs for love, hunting her down out of sorrow, trying to persuade her to change her ways, keep fighting while avoiding to directly harm her, etc. There's a lot more room for choice there, in my opinion

René
1st Dec 2008, 14:31
Was I the only one who crushed on Klara Sparks? ;)

Klara Sparks or NG Resonance? rowr

a_noise_severe
1st Dec 2008, 23:29
i played the girl alex in IW and in my mind there was definitely something goin' awwwwwn between her and sid black. he clearly wanted it anyway.

WTO SpecOp #1136
2nd Dec 2008, 00:05
Klara Sparks or NG Resonance? rowr

I don't know about NG Resonance. I mean the first time you meet her in DX2, she was complaining about the attack and then yells at you to get rid of them. Then afterward, you expect at least a "thank you" but all she does is care about her concert :confused: . Man...she was a complete...well...you know. I would rather talk to the computer version of her instead.

Psychopomp
3rd Dec 2008, 17:37
That's a fairly good game. I still believe Gears of War 2 and especially The Darkness both had better love stories in them, as they were both so tragic. The Darkness, in fact, would be a very, very good starting point to base a love story in Deus Ex 3 off of.


Agreed, Gears 2 actually suprised me with how masterfully that scene was done compared to the rest of the "story," whilst The Darkness suprised me with the quality of it's storytelling all around.

Deus Ex, however, is a different beast. If done properly, it gives the player real conflict in his decisions, rather than "I think this is what's right," like we had with Deus Ex 1. Maybe use a love story to for some kind of "Self v. Society" subtext. Do we throw everyone else down the gutter, so that the individual may live happily; or does the individual truly sacrifice everything to help billions of people he doesn't even know, and would probably hate him for being Augmented.

If done wrong, it won't effect anything that it should, and detracts from what it shouldn't. It would be cheesy, and laughable. No connection would be made, and all decisions concerning her would become "Screw that, Imma help these guys."

APostLife
4th Dec 2008, 07:21
Love story, don't think it will work and it don't even prefer. just wastes time and not actually part of plot. Its not like AJ seems like a love machine. XD LOL

Romeo
6th Dec 2008, 08:40
uhh......
Max Payne? ring some bells?
No, more like alarms. I always found Max Payne's story to be almost 'hokey', as he seemed more interested in revenge than suffering. Gears of War 2 is like that, but I found the Darkness to be vastly superior to either of the other two in that regard.

Romeo
6th Dec 2008, 08:42
Agreed, Gears 2 actually suprised me with how masterfully that scene was done compared to the rest of the "story," whilst The Darkness suprised me with the quality of it's storytelling all around.

Deus Ex, however, is a different beast. If done properly, it gives the player real conflict in his decisions, rather than "I think this is what's right," like we had with Deus Ex 1. Maybe use a love story to for some kind of "Self v. Society" subtext. Do we throw everyone else down the gutter, so that the individual may live happily; or does the individual truly sacrifice everything to help billions of people he doesn't even know, and would probably hate him for being Augmented.

If done wrong, it won't effect anything that it should, and detracts from what it shouldn't. It would be cheesy, and laughable. No connection would be made, and all decisions concerning her would become "Screw that, Imma help these guys."
I love those sort of choices. Or other one's, where you'd have to personally kill some innocents to save countless more. But especially the "Green Goblin" choice. Save your girl, or save everyone else...

Necros
6th Dec 2008, 09:55
An other example of love stories done in a good way was Fahrenheit (Indigo Prophecy). Man, that game was great... :cool:

jordan_a
6th Dec 2008, 18:02
I just rebought it actually, 2.50€ sealed. ^^

Psychopomp
7th Dec 2008, 13:26
Love story, don't think it will work and it don't even prefer. just wastes time and not actually part of plot. Its not like AJ seems like a love machine. XD LOL

It's called a subplot. Stories tend to have them.

Romeo
8th Dec 2008, 02:37
An other example of love stories done in a good way was Fahrenheit (Indigo Prophecy). Man, that game was great... :cool:
I never played it, but I've heard people call it great, and I've also heard it wasn't worth the time. I might just pick it up to see.

It's called a subplot. Stories tend to have them.
Ok, as much as I found that somewhat funny, play nice. ;)

Kaigypsy
8th Dec 2008, 04:02
I dunno, help me out here.

In DE; IW I found several things didn't really mesh but what stood out was the change in Alex's relationship with his suddenly discovered brothers. The first time I played fast so I could make us all ONE/BFF. Dr. Nassif brought up a point that had me thinking the second go around: She mentions Alex (played as the guy) wouldn't be there or connection or kinship growing for his brothers. As I read through this post, I'm thinking that is not a love but brotherly love. Something that wasn't even really an option (or is it?) as soon as Alex learns he is a Denton.

When does that happen? Do Alex and JC have some conversation on his way back to Cairo or Liberty Island? That is one thing I really wish EM had done is have some side cut scenes of JC and Jock's conversations inbetween flights then put the same thing between Alex and Eva's flights.

DE 1 I wasn't sure how to put JC and Paul's relationship as it seems JC was pretty distance from his older brother. Even before the final scene before JC gets to Page, they still seem a bit off. By DE 2 it was pretty clear the two of them had re-connected whatever had been lost. I'm more curious as to the how parts but I guess that will not be answered.
:wave:

nathanj
9th Dec 2008, 05:55
i like well acted characters with depth......i however deplore love themes in action games. they are and always will be cheesy in that kind of game. i got so frustrated with the inane banter of Mass Effect's "love story" that i just stopped talking to certain people altogether probably missing out on key details. the only time i actually got mad when some chick died in a game was when aeriel died in final fantasy 7 (hope im not giving away any spoilers here). and yes i cried like a little school girl and actually had to put the game down for the remainder of the day. :(

leave the love stories to rpgs and the Sims. its like taking the movie Tora tora tora and comparing it to the recent Pearl Harbor movie. both have the same subject matter and Pearl Harbor even had and edge on special effects, however, everyone agrees that Tora tora tora was a much much better movie because it was more focused on GASP the war and not on some cheesy ...........no REALLY cheesy romancecapade including parachutes.

if you make an action game without a love story its no big deal....noone thinks any less of deus ex as a game for not having one. however if you include a love story and it is cheesy, lame, unintentionally hilarious or whatever, then you have essentially ruined the whole game because that will always be in the background of the game.

on a side note whenever a guy and a girl stop running from a monster or badguy for a moment to say some stupid lines to eachother..........that is when i really hope that the bad guys catch and kill them.........slowly and painfully for being such morons. those types of people should not be allowed to live and propogate. :)

GmanPro
9th Dec 2008, 06:02
I agree. The love story in the Matrix movies was pretty pointless and only served to slow down the overall story.

Jerion
9th Dec 2008, 11:05
I agree. The love story in the Matrix movies was pretty pointless and only served to slow down the overall story.

Matrix + Love Story = Fail :hmm:

Although given that they didn't have any plot in the later matrix movies, there really wasn't any way to fit in a love story other than some scenes of Keanu Reeves getting laid.

DXeXodus
9th Dec 2008, 11:48
Matrix + Love Story = Fail :hmm:

Totally agreed.

Digitaldruid
9th Dec 2008, 12:11
what DX franchise needs badly is a charm skill,pheromone biomod and a secret chamber boy ending.

spm1138
9th Dec 2008, 12:36
Matrix = Fail :hmm:



FIX'D

Jerion
9th Dec 2008, 12:45
Matrix 1 was actually an ok movie. Can't say the same for the other two though.

René
9th Dec 2008, 14:29
At the risk of completely derailing this thread, I feel the need to stand up for the second Matrix movie! I think it gets a bad rap because the third one (which was bad) came out something like only six months after the second one. (Hollywood won't be making that mistake again.)

But the Matrix Reloaded was great aside from the way-too-long techno dance party at the beginning and the very end of the movie which was a brutal cliffhanger for part three. But the Merovingian? Amazing character! The Burly Brawl with a hundred Agent Smiths? Great! And the freeway car chase that lasted for like six hours? Awesome!

At least, that's my personal opinion. (Oh, and I see some posts knocking the first movie...that's crazy! What a great film! :))

GmanPro
9th Dec 2008, 17:58
Gotta give props to the sequel. I still have that song that plays during the epic highway scene. It's like 10 minutes long. :cool:

The third one was total garbaaage tho...

Jerion
9th Dec 2008, 18:04
Agreed, the second one did have some awesome sequences. The third one didn't even have that. The giant boss fight at the end of the third one was an epic failure.

spm1138
9th Dec 2008, 21:06
The sequels were chuffing horrible. The first one worked because they didn't give up too much of the plot which was a good thing :rasp:

Just saying. If you want an example of a love story in a sci fi of this kind The Matrix is not a good point of comparison.

Digitaldruid
9th Dec 2008, 22:43
the lobby gunfight from matrix 1 will go down as the most epic gunfight i have ever witnessed on the big screen

Jerion
9th Dec 2008, 22:46
^^ I can second that. :D

GmanPro
9th Dec 2008, 22:48
I never got the chance to watch it in theaters unfortunately. :( I saw the sequels in theaters tho... But yeah, that gunfight was pure awesome. :cool:

imported_van_HellSing
9th Dec 2008, 22:58
As far as stylish sci-fi shootouts go, I heartily recommend Equilibrium. The movie takes itself a bit too seriously at times and has some logical fallacies, (but hey, Matrix is guilty of those things as well as well), but the fights are pretty awesome.

GmanPro
9th Dec 2008, 23:02
That was also a good movie. I'd recommend it to anyone who hasn't seen it. Even if it was a little over the top. That dude was a master of Gun Fu. :D

imported_van_HellSing
9th Dec 2008, 23:09
Not nearly as over the top as the Matrix sequels though ;).

Jerion
10th Dec 2008, 00:17
If you want over the top gun-fu, watch shoot-em-up. It is WILD.

GmanPro
10th Dec 2008, 00:48
So uh... about that whole love story discussion...

FrankCSIS
10th Dec 2008, 03:01
Well, while we're into movies similar in genre to Deus Ex that included love stories, I'd say Blade Runner had an interesting, awkward and just plain strange love story, if you can call it that, so long as you forget the ridiculous feel-good ending thrown in the I-don't-know-which version. Actually, it contained two, both equally strange and awkward, and yet totally fitting love stories.

It doesn't have to be Romeo & Juliette set in Cyberpunk. Love is a very broad word that has several meanings, varying degrees and numerous shades of greys. It also has the definite purpose of adding much depth to a story, so long as it makes sense and is properly incorporated.

I'll agree though that it's not necessary, and will end up as a drag if thrown in for good measures. The Thing didn't have a love story, in fact it didn't have a single woman in the cast, and it made perfect sense that way. Had Carpenter done the same for Precinct 13, it would've made for a better movie.

GmanPro
10th Dec 2008, 05:38
"Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds." :cool:

Yargo
11th Dec 2008, 03:04
"Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds." :cool:

"Query: Is there someone you need killed master."

Thats my login sound. My computer asks me who I want killed. :D

GmanPro
11th Dec 2008, 03:17
Awesome... :eek:

Tstorm
11th Dec 2008, 22:02
The fact that JC and Paul barely had any emotions made them really cool characters. putting love into deus ex would be like taking a leak on your project before you hand it in to your teacher to be graded. I believe no one wants to listen to some dolt whine and moan about how Adam never hugs her anymore. All we need is 4 things, a conspiracy, a grouchy jc denton style chracter, lots of killing and shooting and blowing up, and a trench coat to top it all off.

Romeo
12th Dec 2008, 05:27
At the risk of completely derailing this thread, I feel the need to stand up for the second Matrix movie! I think it gets a bad rap because the third one (which was bad) came out something like only six months after the second one. (Hollywood won't be making that mistake again.)

But the Matrix Reloaded was great aside from the way-too-long techno dance party at the beginning and the very end of the movie which was a brutal cliffhanger for part three. But the Merovingian? Amazing character! The Burly Brawl with a hundred Agent Smiths? Great! And the freeway car chase that lasted for like six hours? Awesome!

At least, that's my personal opinion. (Oh, and I see some posts knocking the first movie...that's crazy! What a great film! :))
I never liked any of them. They were simply special effects films that were trying too hard to be cool, in my opinion. I'm more of a "Crash" kind of guy, or "Children of Men". Or pretty much any other movie that starts with C, and has an R and H in the first word. lol

Psychopomp
19th Dec 2008, 06:13
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...

Christmas with the Kranks?

singularity
19th Dec 2008, 09:01
... sorry. I know that the topic is starting to really spin into some... weird territory, so before it gets completely to the outer limits, I'll just say this:

A lot of games today, especially first-person-shooters, want to make you the man behind the helmet. It's why Master Chief has no face, Gordon Freeman has no voice and a whole slew of virtual protagonists don't have... well... anything. But I'm not sure why we stand for it. If we were forced to watch movies or read books with main characters this dry we would all last for about 7 minutes, tops. I want a character who is human (or partially so), flawed and capable of a broad range of emotions. If you want a great story, rather than just a good one, you need characters that are 3 dementional, and emotional, or at the very least have an emotional stake in the outcome of the game (see: Dead Space).

If this means a love story, then I'm fine with it. Hell, I don't care if Adam cries when his cat dies -- just make it believable. When/ if Paul died in DX1, I couldn't have cared less. JC showed no emotion over it, and neither did anyone else in the game. Paul could have been a sack of potatos, but in the context of the game, he was JC's only family and the one person he could trust at that point, along with the person who knew all the answers. And we got a whole 5 lines of dialogue, delivered by Ben Stein.

I'd be happy for Adam to have a love intrest. If done properly, it would give him more to lose (or gain), put more at stake on the outcome of the game, and provide some possible emotional leverage (I know it's vastly over-used and over-rated, but I can't help but think of Final Fantasy VII here...).
If the devs think they can pull it off well, I say go for it.
If not, I say don't touch it with a thirty-nine-and-a-half-foot pole, because the last thing we need is another 2-bit love story crafted for a generation that grew up at the mall.

PS -- I liked the first two Matrix films very much, along with the animatrix, even though I thought the second film had some pacing problems. The third was a little... meh. Just my 2 cents.

FrankCSIS
19th Dec 2008, 23:41
Hell, I don't care if Adam cries when his cat dies

Although the game's been around for too long already,

THERE WILL BE SPOILERS

Surely you've played Blade Runner. The two or three endings where McCoy finds out his dog is in fact a machine is ridiculously heart breaking. Every time he kept talking about his little pride and joy, one of the last real animal, you could tell how much he loved that pup. That's a serious layer added to a character that could've easily been boring as hell.

Radox Redux
20th Dec 2008, 00:46
Never mind how the love story ends... if a love story is ever gonna work in Deus Ex... it'll be all to do with how it begins. Firstly... it shouldn't even start without the player's input... adding a preestablished (or prescripted) love interest would only be a burden, and whenever the inevitable rescue/abandon scenario would rear it's head... hell, I might choose just to shoot myself in there and put a bullet her/his brain myself.

There should be an option to pursue the romance, but never without the players input, preferably with multiple choice in both sexes, and augmentation, and maybe even structure as well... is loving a sentient AI wrong, for example? I'd love the choice, and it would tie in nicely with DX's themes too.